24
Feb
09

“It is finished”

 

     These simple words that Jesus spoke from the cross have given tremendous comfort to millions of Christians down through the years.  In the original Greek, it consists of only one word.  It was a word that was used to mark bills paid in full.  In this striking way, Jesus declared that he had fully paid our debt of sin.

     By raising Jesus gloriously from the dead, the Father dramatically showed that he accepted that payment.  If Jesus had not paid for our sins, after repeatedly saying that is what he was going to do, there would be no way that the Father would have exalted him by raising him so gloriously.  Jesus resurrection is our receipt proving that he truly did pay our debt.

     Down through the centuries, Christians have clung tenaciously to these facts.  When voices from within or without call into question the completeness of that payment, they stand firm on the fact that, because of Jesus, they can view their debt of sin as paid in full.  There is no greater joy or relief than that.

     It is my prayer that all experience that great joy and relief.  That, my friends, is what is motivating me.

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46 Responses to ““It is finished””


  1. February 25, 2009 at 1:21 am

    I don’t have a question, but wanted to let you know that I subscribe to your blog, and am always blessed reading it. I have been a Christian since I was 18 and my greatest joy is in knowing Christ and experiencing His grace. My youngest daughter recently converted to LDS and was married/sealed in the Oakland Temple in December. I began taking the Ensign magazine this past summer to understand *first hand* what she believes, and now I read your blog to learn how to lovingly discuss the differences with her and her new husband. Thanks for an excellent forum. I am learning so much, and trust that she will someday reject this “other gospel” and return to grace.

  2. February 25, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Mark: very simple, powerful post. I think when the gospel can stay simple like this, it’s saving power is kept, AND as a bonus, it’s a little easier to present. Once the message morphs into “GOD loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life”, then (unintentionally) the message has begun to change, and the focus starts to shift.

    I think a challenge for the church is to resist the urge to “modernize” the gospel message, in order to “make it relevant”. Big mistake……at least in GERMIT’s estimation.

    have a blessed week, enjoying that which you could not, and never will, be able to do for yourself……….hope your wife finds the LORD’s touch as well

    GERMIT

  3. 3 GB
    February 25, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Mark,

    Thank you for separating the Father from the Son in your post. It is wonderful how intuitive that truth is.

    Also thanks for mentioning the resurrection of Jesus. We know that because He lives forever (body of flesh and bone eternally united with His spirit) we also will live forever. His overcoming death (the separation of the spirit from the body) insures our delivery from death.

    “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    The grave has no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.

    Thanks again for this post.

  4. 4 Bryant A.
    February 25, 2009 at 6:47 pm

    Mark, The four most beautiful words in the world. It is finished (paid in full), and Grace (a free gift). In the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Even mormons baptized in the name of the TRINITY. God Bless Us Everyone B

  5. 5 GB
    February 25, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Bryant,

    Not accurate!

    Mormons baptize “in the name of the Father, AND OF THE Son, AND OF THE Holy Ghost”. That is NOT the trinity as you understand it.

    As Paul would say “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    And like him, I do mean BOTH of them.

  6. 6 Bryant A.
    February 26, 2009 at 8:02 am

    GB, My mistake we also baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. The definition of the word (of) is “used as a funtion word to indicate the WHOLE that includes the part denoted by the preceding word” witch is FATHER. And just joins them together. Sorry but that is the trinity. God Bless us Everyone B

  7. February 26, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”

    Gramatically speaking, if we were referencing three separate beings it would be proper to say “in the NAMES of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” It has always been quite interesting to me that The Bible uses the word NAME and not NAMES. The Holy Spirit who directed the authors of The Bible made sure that we knew He was referencing the ONE and only TRUE God and not a multiplicity of Gods – one of which was spiritually born of the other.

    Darrell

  8. 8 GB
    February 26, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Well let’s see
    From Dictionary.com

    1.(used to indicate distance or direction from, separation, deprivation, etc.): within a mile of the church; south of Omaha; to be robbed of one’s money.
    2.(used to indicate derivation, origin, or source): a man of good family; the plays of Shakespeare; a piece of cake.
    3.(used to indicate cause, motive, occasion, or reason): to die of hunger.
    4.(used to indicate material, component parts, substance, or contents): a dress of silk; an apartment of three rooms; a book of poems; a package of cheese.
    5.(used to indicate apposition or identity): Is that idiot of a salesman calling again?
    6.(used to indicate specific identity or a particular item within a category): the city of Chicago; thoughts of love.
    7.(used to indicate possession, connection, or association): the king of France; the property of the church.
    8.(used to indicate inclusion in a number, class, or whole): one of us.
    9.(used to indicate the objective relation, the object of the action noted by the preceding noun or the application of a verb or adjective): the ringing of bells; He writes her of home; I’m tired of working.
    10.(used to indicate reference or respect): There is talk of peace.
    11.(used to indicate qualities or attributes): an ambassador of remarkable tact.
    12.(used to indicate a specified time): They arrived of an evening.
    13.Chiefly Northern U.S. before the hour of; until: twenty minutes of five.
    14.on the part of: It was very mean of you to laugh at me.
    15.in respect to: fleet of foot.
    16.set aside for or devoted to: a minute of prayer.
    17.Archaic. by: consumed of worms.

    Although I don’t find Bryants definition there, it is obvious that the three indicated “whole”s of this phrase are “the Father”, “the Son”, and “the Holy Ghost”. And “the part denoted by the preceding word” is “the name”. Sorry but “the Father” is NOT the preceding part.

    Darrell,

    That is an interesting point but it proves NOTHING.

    If I were preparing a legal document for example, and I said to a clerk that I was submitting the document “in the name of my father and of my mother and of my brother”, would you assume that they were all the same person?

    If I were to say that a tornado destroyed the house of my father and of my uncle and of my cousin, would you assume that they were all the same person? Would you assume they all lived in the same house?

    What if I said that a tornado destroyed the house of my father, uncle and cousin? Would you assume that they were all the same person? Would you assume they all lived in the same house?

    As far as your assertion that “The Holy Spirit who directed the authors of The Bible made sure that we knew He was referencing the ONE and only TRUE God and not a multiplicity of Gods . . .”

    Shall we look at what the authors of the Bible actually made sure of?

    Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    • • •
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    1 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • • •
    3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    2 Cor. 1: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

    Col. 1: 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

    1 Thes. 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
    • • •
    13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    2 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, aunto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom. 1: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom. 15: 6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    Gal. 1: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Eph. 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philip. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philip. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Col. 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    2 Thes. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    1 Tim. 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Philem. 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    2 Jn. 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

    And then we have the words of Jesus Himself, but hey, what did He know about the subject.

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    • • •
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Mark 13:32 ¶ But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matt. 28:19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    Is it not amazing how intuitive it is that They are separate beings? I find it very interesting that those the get their understanding from the Bible and not the creeds also believe that They are separate beings.

  9. 9 geoff456
    February 26, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    I have a comment.

    I always thought that Jesus was referring to his own accomplishment when He said, “It is finished”. He made the covenant with God to do it. The promises made to the people of the world were on the strength of that promise. I thought that was kind of like saying, “I did it, I did what You wanted me to do, even though I would have liked that cup to pass from me.” I also think it might be a reference to his power to give up his own life. He gave it, the Jews didn’t “take it”. I am LDS and I believe that He did die for me, but I also believe that each of us has to be obedient, just as He was, in order to get eternal life. After all, He could have leveled the soldiers and resisted, but he was obedient to His Father. I think that was His ultimate example to us. To be obedient to the end!

  10. 10 ADB
    February 26, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    Having once again embarked on the start of yet another Lenten journey with Ash Wednesday last evening, as I considered the appointed Scripture readings, I couldn’t help but notice how empty so much of Scripture would be if it weren’t for Jesus’ “It is finished.”

    One of the readings was 2 Corinthians 5:20b-6:2: “Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. For he says, ‘In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.’ I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.”

    Those words of the inspired apostle mean nothing without Christ’s “It is finished.” Without those words we would still be “divorced” from the Father due to what we might call “irreconcilable differences” – in other words, sin. But because it’s been finished, Christ is our righteousness, our perfection.

    Furthermore, as Paul so clearly states, this is presently the case, right now. Christ is our righteousness right now, and to see it any other way is to receive God’s grace in vain. Paul says that salvation is ours right now; it is not something that depends on any future work or effort. Let’s not receive God’s grace in vain by assuming we can in any way whatsoever attach anything to Christ’s “It is finished.”

  11. 11 GERMIT
    February 26, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    ADB: excellent post, esp. the last paragraph; thanks

    GERMIT

  12. February 27, 2009 at 2:47 am

    GB,

    Thank you for sharing those scriptures. I agree with every single one of them. They all conform completely with my belief that there is one God who eternally manifests Himself in 3 persons. In addition, my belief that there is but one God (not three) is further supported by the Old Testament. Among other things, there are numerous verses throughout Isaiah which are very problematic to the Mormon doctrine that the Father Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings… one of whom (the Son) is a spiritually born God of His Father Elohim. There is a post on my blog which goes into great detail on a few of these verses. Feel free to check it out.

    http://toughquestionsanswered.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/yhwh-and-mormonism/

    Here a but some of the verses that are problematic to Mormon doctrine.

    Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD, your God,the Holy One of Israel, your Savior

    43:10-11 Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

    44:6 “This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    44:8 Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

    45:5-6 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    45:14 Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.

    45:18 I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    45:21 Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

    45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

    46:9 I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

    As these scriptures attest, there is only ONE God, He is our Savior, there was no God before Him and there will be no Gods besides Him. His name is Yahweh (translated into English as “The Lord”) and not Elohim as the Mormon temple ceremony teaches. He has always been God and was not a spiritually born son of another God and wife as Mormonism teaches.

    Once again, this fits in perfectly well with my belief that there is One God who eternally manifests Himself in three persons. Unfortunately it does not fit in well with the Tri-Theistic doctrine of Mormonism.

    Darrell

  13. 13 faithoffathers
    February 27, 2009 at 3:59 am

    Mark,

    I appreciate your post. What Christ “finished” is nothing less than the greatest thing in the universe. Nothing else matters in the slightest without that. I am only one, but everything I know that is good is a result of His infinite offering.

    fof

  14. 14 Bryant A.
    February 27, 2009 at 8:15 am

    GB, Sorry it took so long to respond. The dictionary is called Merriam-Webster online dictionary Of-4a. I already gave you the definition, you can look it up if you want. The preceding of the Father is name,preceding of the son is Father, preceding the Holy Ghost is the Son. Preceding:that immediately precedes in time or place . And connects them all together.

    This is one of my favorite scriptures. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    1:2 The same was in the beginning with God

    God Bless us EVERYONE B

  15. 15 GB
    February 27, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Darrell,

    It is interesting that you quote the same old verses that have been addressed many many times. Instead of going through each of them, I will just say that I notice that all of them are from Isaiah.

    From Deu 18:15 ¶ The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
    . . .
    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Moses prophesied that a preeminent prophet would be raised up, whose teachings would be preeminent among ALL the teachings of ALL the prophets.

    Who was he talking about?

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    . . .
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    So was Moses talking about Jesus? Yes he was. The teachings of Jesus supersede ALL others.

    Paul verified the preeminence of Jesus and His teachings with this statement. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    So then, where there are apparent conflicts between the statements of Isiah and Jesus, Jesus wins.

    Jesus made it perfectly clear that He was a separate being/person from the Father. This He clearly taught to His disciples.

    Paul taught it this way. 1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Take John 1:1, I think that is a huge problem for Trinitarians reading this, though, since the fact that Jesus is a separate deity, is the Same as God, is God-like all mean the same thing: There are two divine beings described in John 1:1.

    “In the beginning was the Word” (that is one)”, and the Word was with God” (that makes two) “, and the Word was God.” (that makes TWO divine beings)

    Non-LDS scholars recognize that there are more than one God.

    http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/MonotheismProblem.pdf

    Also check out “The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God” by Margaret Barker.

    It is common knowledge among real scholars that the original polytheism of the Old Testament was partially exercised. There are, however remnants of polytheism found. I won’t take the time now to show them to you.

    So there you have it Darrell, real scholars don’t agree with you.

  16. February 27, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    GB,

    “It is common knowledge among real scholars that the original polytheism of the Old Testament was partially exercised. There are, however remnants of polytheism found. I won’t take the time now to show them to you. So there you have it Darrell, real scholars don’t agree with you.”

    Before we go any further in this conversation I have to stop and ask you a question. I truly hope I am reading the above statement wrong… there are severe limits to conversing on-line and I hope this is one of those times.

    I fully understand that some scholars believe that ancient Israel believed in more than one God… I have read plenty on the “divine council”. Are you actually asserting here that in order to be classified as a “real scholar” one has to believe that ancient Israel was polythiestic or as some scholars term it not “radically monotheistic”? Are you actually classifying the scholars who DO NOT hold that opinion as not “real scholars”. Am I understanding you correctly?

    Darrell

  17. 17 GERMIT
    February 27, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    FoF: amen to that

  18. 18 GB
    February 27, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    Bryant,

    “The preceding of the Father is name,preceding of the son is Father, preceding the Holy Ghost is the Son.”

    You are missing part of your definition in that statement. Let me correct it for you.

    The preceding PART of the Father is THE name, THE preceding PART of the son is THE Father, THE preceding PART OF the Holy Ghost is the Son.

    So then, what you are saying is that the name is a part of the Father, and the Father is a part of the Son, and the Son is a part of the Holy Ghost.

    Or in other words.

    The Son is a lesser portion of the Holy Ghost, and the Father is a lesser portion of the Son, and the name is a lesser portion of the Father.

    That doesn’t sound like the doctrine of the trinity to me.

  19. 19 Bryant A.
    February 28, 2009 at 8:34 am

    GB,

    Lets start from the begining. Mormons belive Jesus is Jehovah, and God is Elohim. In your KJV Bible Dictionary under (Jehovah: The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM”. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by LORD or GOD, printed in small capitals). Under (God: When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is refered to; that is Elohim). So when your Bible writes about Jehovah, it is wrote as GOD our LORD in capital letters. When they write about Elohim, it is wrote as God in small letters. Deuteronomy 6:4 is a good one. Hear, O Isreal: The LORD our God is one LORD. Let me translate. Hear o Isreal: The Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. They are ONE. You can also go to tgm.org/bible.htm, this is Strongs concordance of the KJV of the Bible. With the Hebrew and Greek words the Bible was translated from and there definitions. Now that sounds like the trinity to me. God Bless us Everyone. B

  20. March 1, 2009 at 10:06 am

    Just passing by.Btw, you website have great content!

    _________________________________
    Making Money $150 An Hour

  21. 21 Bryant A.
    March 2, 2009 at 7:14 am

    GB

    GB lets define word, same dictionary. Word 4 a: LOGOS b: GOSPEL 1a c: the expressed or manifested mind and will of God

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Now word express one’s thought’s. No one knows your our my thoughts but us. The prophets only knew the little bit of knowledge, that God gave them. Jesus says in John 14:23 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. So Jesus was connected to God in a way he knew all of Gods thought’s. So this is why John Said, and the Word was God. Not a God, our another God, but was God. Just another way that the Bible shows the trinity. God Bless us Everyone B

  22. 22 GB
    March 2, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    Bryant,

    It is not clear to me what your point is.
    If we look at the interlinear Hebrew for Deu 6:4, we get this.

    hear-you! Israel Yahweh Elohim-of·us Yahweh one

    Strongs has elohim as Strongs H430 which Strongs defines as the plural of H433 (‘elowahh)

    1) (plural)
    a) rulers, judges
    b) divine ones
    c) angels
    d) gods

    2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
    a) god, goddess
    b) godlike one
    c) works or special possessions of God
    d) the (true) God
    e) God

    Strongs defines H433 (‘elowahh) as

    1) God
    2) false god

    So I am still not sure what your point is.

    Now lets look at the Greek for John 1:1
    En archE eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ho gheos kai theos eimi ho logos

    Which word for word literally means.

    In beginning was the word and the word was toward the god and god was the word.

    Now to correct it for English grammar.

    In beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God, and the Word was God.

    Clearly the Greek separates the Word (the Son) from the God (the Father), yet it attributes divinity (God like characteristics) to the Word.

    The Greek word “pros” literally means toward and is directional. So in other words Jesus was toward/near/like the Father.

    I hope this helps out.

  23. March 2, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    GB,

    I see that you have addressed other people within the past couple of days and have not addressed my question in post 16 above. I just want to make sure you don’t overlook it.

    Thanks!!

    Darrell

  24. 24 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Darrell,

    I said, “So there you have it Darrell, real scholars don’t agree with you.”

    I did NOT say “So there you have it Darrell, ALL real scholars don’t agree with you.”

    See the difference?

  25. 25 Bryant A.
    March 3, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    GB,

    You can use either the interlinear Hebrew, our the english translation.

    Now to put the interlinear in to english.

    Hear-you! Isreal Yahweh Elohim-of-us Yahweh one

    Here-you! Isreal Yahweh (Strongs-H3068 Jehovah) Elohim-of-us (God) (Strongs-H430 plural

    intensive – singular meaning) Yahweh (Strongs-H3068 Jehovah) ONE

    IT still say,s they are ONE!

    Now TO John 1:1

    Yes The word toward is in the Greek. Yes the Greek word pros means-on, to, toward. I could not

    find anywhere that linked the word like. No where in any of the definitions on, to, toward,

    our near. Scholars through out history have agreed that this ment with.

    God Bless us Everyone B

  26. March 3, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    “I said, “So there you have it Darrell, real scholars don’t agree with you.” I did NOT say “So there you have it Darrell, ALL real scholars don’t agree with you.” See the difference?”

    GB,

    Thanks for the clarification. I am glad to see you were not asserting the ridiculous claim it appeared you were. Given the fact that you will agree that some scholars DO agree with me, there really is not point to your assertion. I could just as easily say that real scholars don’t agree with you… that will get us nowhere. In fact, there are “real” scholars who are agnostic (a great many in fact) and atheist. Neither of us cling to those beliefs…

    More later… work is calling.

    Darrell

  27. 27 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Bryant,

    It is true that Jehovah is one. So what?

    May I suggest that you go back and read posts #8 and #15.

  28. 28 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    Darrell,

    I would be interested in you providing references to the scholars that agree with you. I am very much interested in knowing who they are, what their credentials are, and reading their arguments. Internet links are preferable.

  29. 29 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    Bryant,

    You may find these verses interesting.

    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

  30. March 3, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    GB,

    For starters, check out Norman Geisler. His systematic theology books are great. Not only does he make some good arguments in them but he also lists a TON of references to support the Evangelical position on the nature of God.

    You want a reference to an agnostic scholar as well? The head of religious studies at UNC Chapel Hill is a good one… he has written a lot. Have fun with that one.

    Not sure what you are trying to prove… are you going to start now with a “my scholar is better than your scholar” type of argument?

    Darrell

  31. 31 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Darrell,

    I agree with you (post #12) that They are 3 persons.

    1828 Websters: Person

    1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person. It is applied alike to a man, woman or child.

    A person is a thinking intelligent being.

    2. A man, woman or child, considered as opposed to things, or distinct from them.

    A zeal for persons is far more easy to be perverted, than a zeal for things.

    3. A human being, considered with respect to the living body or corporeal existence only. The form of her person is elegant.

    You’ll find her person difficult to gain.

    The rebels maintained the fight for a small time, and for their persons showed no want of courage.

    4. A human being, indefinitely; one; a man. Let a person’s attainments be never so great, he should remember he is frail and imperfect.

    5. A human being represented in dialogue, fiction, or on the state; character. A player appears in the person of king Lear.

    These tables, Cicero pronounced under the person of Crassus, were of more use and authority than all the books of the philosophers.

    6. Character of office.

    How different is the same man from himself, as he sustains the person of a magistrate and that of a friend.

    7. In grammar, the nominative to a verb; the agent that performs or the patient that suffers any thing affirmed by a verb; as, I write; he is smitten; she is beloved; the rain descends in torrents. I, thou or you, he, she or it, are called the first, second and third persons. Hence we apply the word person to the termination or modified form of the verb used in connection with the persons; as the first or the third person of the verb; the verb is in the second person.

    8. In law, an artificial person, is a corporation or body politic.

    In person, by one’s self; with bodily presence; not be representative.

    The king in person visits all around.

  32. 32 GB
    March 3, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    “When we turn to the problem of the doctrine of the Trinity, we are confronted by a peculiarly contradictory situation. On the one hand, the history of Christian theology and of dogma teaches us to regard the dogma of the Trinity as the distinctive element in the Christian idea of God, that which distinguishes it from the idea of God in Judaism and in Islam, and indeed, in all forms of rational Theism. Judaism, Islam, and rational Theism are Unitarian. On the other hand, we must honestly admit that the doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the early Christian-New Testament-message. Certainly, it cannot be denied that not only the word “Trinity”, but even the explicit idea of the Trinity is absent from the apostolic witness of the faith. The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical Doctrine…” Emil Brunner, The Christian Doctrine of God (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1949), 205, 236.

    “‘Subordinationism’, it is true, was pre-Nicean orthodoxy.” Henry Bettenson, editor and translator, The Early Christian Fathers:A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius, (Oxford University Press: 1969), 239. ISBN 0192830090.

    ‘Subordinationism’ is a doctrine which means that Jesus and/or the Holy Ghost are ‘subordinate’ or ‘subject’ to God the Father. In subordinationism, Jesus must be a separate being from the Father, because you can’t be subject to yourself! This was the orthodox position before the Nicean council. Ideas that were once orthodox were later considered unacceptable after the councils altered and added to the doctrine.

  33. 33 Bryant A.
    March 4, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    GB,

    It is true that Jehovah Is one. So what?

    Refer back to post #19. That is not what it say’s. If it did it would be wrote like this.

    Hear, O Isreal: The LORD (Jehovah) our GOD (Jehovah) is one LORD (Jehovah) Instead it reads like this Hear, O Isreal: The LORD (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Jehovah).

    God Bless us Everyone B

  34. March 5, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    GP – why should any true Christian care concerning the statements from such individuals as Emil Brunner a known liberal theologian ? Sadly many Mormons are past masters of obfuscation , they dredge around history citing any errant statement they can find from any individual who has the label however tenuous of being Christian and then present it as if it has some sort of authority .The Mormon tactic reminds me of the following . A few years ago I was involved in a debate with Muslims and unsuprisingly the doctrine of the Trinity played central stage . The dishonest Muslims used copious citations from so called Christian sources and triumphantly presented them as ” Christian ” supporting their position .It turned out these so called Christian quotes were from Jehovahs Witness publications . The Christian position concerning the Trinity rests on the authority of the Bible and that alone .

    Isaiah 45v5 states ‘ I am the Lord , and there is none else there is no God beside me .. , this one text alone completely overthrows the crude pagan polytheism of Mormonism .Can you please explain to us if the essence of ” Heavenly Mother ” is the same as Heavenly Father ie divine then how can you maintain the fiction that Mormonism is remotely Christian ?

  35. 35 GB
    March 5, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    In order to argue successfully for the unconditionally and permanence of the ancient Trinitarian Creeds, it is necessary to make a distinction between doctrines, on the one hand, and on the terminology and conceptuality in which they were formulated on the other… Some of the crucial concepts employed by these creeds, such as “substance”, “person”, and “in two natures” are post-biblical novelties. If these particular notions are essential, the doctrines of these creeds are clearly conditional, dependent on the late Hellenistic milieu. George A. Lindbeck, The Nature of Doctrine (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1984), 92.

    Post-biblical novelties? Dependent on the late Hellenistic milieu? Humm.

  36. March 17, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    Interesting blog, I’ll try and spread the word.

  37. March 31, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Great blog,

    Ex-Mormon here. I attended your meeting in Texas on March 30, 2009. Whatever I can contribute to help others learn the truth in love will be welcomed. I’m ready to go with you. Please have someone contact me.

    Jack

  38. 38 ADB
    April 1, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Jack,

    So what’s your story? What led to your becoming an “ex-Mormon?” I’m sure many would be interested if you’d be willing to share.

    Thanks, and welcome.

  39. April 2, 2009 at 5:29 am

    I grew up in a small town that was at least 85-90 percent Mormons. Even those of us who didn’t really know or understand the religion to any great degree pretty much understood what they did most of the time because most of my friends were Mormons. Then one day I fell in love and married a Mormon girl who asked that I always let her go to church. It didn’t seem like a problem to me until after a couple of years when I had gone through the process of becoming one and even gaining approval to be sealed to my wife in the Salt Lake Temple. It was that ceremony that first began the huge doubts. It just seemed ridiculous to me. I remember the deep disappointment and depression. It was terrible. It seemed like I should probably try harder to believe so as to not disappoint my wife.

    The next problem came when I purchased the set of books on the history of the church. Again, it just seemed like complete nonsense to me. Somehow I just knew it was wrong. I didn’t believe it at all. That was even worse, because of the stories I had heard of those who would be sent to the Outer Darkness as Sons of Perdition. That would be me if I couldn’t find some way to believe.

    But it was too late. I just couldn’t understand at that time how anyone could believe such nonsense (because I was young and still uneducated). I quit going to church services and became a “Jack Mormon”. As time went on and my wife became even more and more involved, our marriage was ruined and I divorced her. It was a miserable time. But I had figured out why people believed them.

    A combination of brainwashing, from the time a child can understand language and speak “I know this church is true and I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet”, excellent marketing (they spare no expense in the area of marketing), and a willingness to change doctrine and policies through “revelation” makes all things possible. Concentrating on getting feelings actually makes people get feelings and that is said to be the thing that verifies you know the “truth”. Also, with so many people trying so hard to choose the right and telling each other how much they believe all the time gets it done for the strong core group of believers. They mean well and believe hard.

    My wife and I found WELS four years ago. We have been on an education journey since then and have actually learned much about the Bible, the true Word of God. I had heard of you before that from my oldest son who is a Christian but not a WELS member. Having been witnessed to by the Holy Spirit is so much different and satisfying than being brain washed by saying something over and over again and concentrating on developing a feeling to verify that it is true.

    Staying in the True Word is what keeps us going. Now I want to help others who are trapped in Mormonism and don’t know the truth. It will surely not be an easy calling, because Satan has done very well with them. He makes it very attractive and full of feeling and brotherhood. But our God is in charge of everything and I will offer what little a poor forgiven sinner can do.

    I pray for God’s blessings on this important ministry.

  40. 40 Jack
    April 2, 2009 at 7:00 am

    In answering your question, I left out something very important.

    I have been and am the worst of sinners. My guilt in so many things is unquestioned and I deserve nothing good. For so long this haunted me and I thought there was nothing I could do to earn forgiveness for the anger and frustration I have felt and for my sinful reaction.

    Much prayer and Bible study proved that, indeed, I could not earn forgiveness. However, it turned out that it didn’t matter. It turned out that forgiveness cannot be earned. No works can earn it, nor can it bring salvation. Ephesians 2:6-10 says it plainly:

    “6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

    It takes a great deal of unlearning and relearning to find the truth when you’ve been deep in Mormonism. In producing Mormon doctrine, so much has been twisted and changed. Even words have been changed to mean something completely different. However, when you finally learn that it is all about Him (what he has done) and not about sinful you; when you learn that it is completely by grace that you are saved and that you are forgiven and you are saved, then you can begin to find joy and peace in Christ Jesus. Then you want to do good works in Him; not for salvation but because of faith and thankfulness.

    Finally, at long last, peace has come.

  41. 41 GERMIT
    April 2, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Jack: thanks for sharing your story, and it’s an amazing and lifegiving one at that. In addition to your Bible, hold on to your best Christian friends and mentors, they are a source of great healing as well.

    All GOD’s best for you and yours
    GERMIT

  42. 42 ladonnamorrell
    April 2, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    wow, the Devil is capable of producing good works and feelings of brotherhood? that is a new one for me. Was your wife possesed by the Devil? were you? when you did your home teaching, served in the cannery, used your priesthood, put a new roof on someones house were you serving the devil?? when you studied the scriptures, taught your children to pray and lived righteous principles were you serving Satan?

    don’t think so.

    another one bites the dust.

  43. 43 Stephanie
    April 2, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Ladonna, the devil is the ‘father of lies,’ who can appear as an ‘angel of light.’ The devil is called the ‘author of confusion.’ The devil is capable of many ‘miracles,’ but the authority comes from the wrong place. I would never underestimate the subtle craftiness of Satan, who takes the gospel of Christ and subverts it delicately so as to mislead millions of LDS people (and many non LDS who strive for worthiness). As far as the good works you mentioned above, these works did not “count” (so to speak) until the person performing them had placed his trust in the substitutionary death of Christ. As the Bible says, this world is the ‘dominion of Satan’ for now. He is called the ‘prince of this world.’ The Bible teaches that no good deeds glorify God unless the person performing them has a saving trust in Christ (i.e. will live eternally with Heavenly Father).

    Remember that humility is a Christian trait.

  44. 44 germit
    April 3, 2009 at 2:46 am

    wow, the Devil is capable of producing good works and feelings of brotherhood? that is a new one for me.

    the one good work that we can be sure the Adversary won’t reproduce is trusting in Christ, and believing in HIS life and mission. Everything else….sure, even the miracles can get a “knock off”. The devil is no slouch, and has been at this for many thousands of years. So there is no surprise here….of course we can and will debate who is being fleeced and who has bought into the real deal.

    interesting, though that the basis, really, of all that JACK shared with us is personal revelation…..through what, or which, SPIRIT ??? Guess that’s a key question.

  45. 45 Jack
    April 3, 2009 at 3:33 am

    The problem that most people, including me, seem to have had is the inability to be both willing and able to search for the truth and to question, study, listen, and learn. When something seemed incorrect, with great difficulty I learned to pray, study, and not be afraid of what I would find. I still often find that my ignorance is the problem, rather than what I’ve heard or read. Bible study and prayer eventually bring faith and understanding and/or acceptance.

    The comment by ladonnamorrell sounds like what many people would say when they have a strong paradigm and are not willing or maybe able to consider or understand what someone else has tried to say. Judging is far easier than trying to understand. People tend to compare against their own belief system and then judge the words of others against what is “true” in their mind. I found that it was difficult to challenge my beliefs, especially due to my lack of much religious education. I wanted to believe what the church was telling me. It looked so attractive at first. I was willing to look into it.

    The comments that ladonnamorrell makes are a very good example. They are presented from the standpoint of an understanding of basic Mormon doctrine and teachings and without a clear understanding of Christianity to compare it against. Those judgments seem strange to a Christian. Most Christians do not know about “home teaching”, “serving in the cannery”, or “using your priesthood”. But they are simply how Mormons would view the situation from their belief system. Christianity and Mormonism are so different that it can be very confusing from both sides. It certainly was confusing to me.

    For instance, studying scriptures would be studying the Bible to a Christian. To me before, the scriptures were more the Doctrine and Covenants, Perl of Great Price, Book of Mormon, then the Enhanced Bible (with the corrections/additions to make it agree with Mormon doctrine). Finally, there was always new revelation from the living prophets and other readings such as the church history. To Mormons, the Bible has been corrupted over time by man and has become inaccurate. So it is easy to see why misunderstandings can occur. Also true is that a Christian can believe that they agree with a Mormon on something and not realize that what they think they agree on means something different to the other person. Both sides must be willing to listen to each other and must be knowledgable enough to explain everything clearly in order to actually understand each other.

    What a Christian who is interested in talking to others must understand is that some seriously negative reactions and disapproval is inevitable in some cases. Still, truth with love is how it must begin. I’m a slow learner, but I now know that is important to realize that God wants all people to be saved and that I am no better than anyone else (and maybe not as good as anyone else) and that I must try to be as humble and educated as possible and pray always. I have a very long way to go on all of it.

    Let’s not snipe one another. It is easy to insult. If my words seem insulting, then I apologize for not being able to communicate better. If what I’ve said in presenting an answer to ADB is inaccurate upon review by the person monitoring this Blog, please delete this. Truth in love is key.

  46. April 3, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Jack: you are a self-confessed ex-Jack-mormon…but you are clearly no Jack-christian;

    I think you are off to very fine start. Truth , but not at the expense of love. Strong words, brother. well said, again.

    GERMIT


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