17
Jun
09

“GUILTY”

     That has to be one of the most earth-shattering words that could ever be directed at a person – especially when it is spoken by a judge.  We can almost see the defendant slump down as his or her family break out in tears.  This is magnified all the more when the guilty verdict results in the death penalty.

     “Guilty” is the verdict that rang down on all of mankind from no less a judge than God himself.  “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”  (James 2:10)  As the footnote in the LDS edition of the Bible correctly states, “offend” means to stumble or err.  The breaking of the law in consideration is not an intentional, but an unintentional one.  It is a stumble, a mistake.  But that makes no difference.  The verdict is just as devastating.  Guilty!  “Guilty of all”.  You stumble at just one point – you break it all.  God’s commandments are a unified whole.  It only takes one pinprick to burst a balloon.  It only takes one sin to break the whole law.

     And it doesn’t make any difference how much good a person did before or after – the verdict “guilty” remains.  He could have been the model citizen before and the model prisoner afterwards but he remains guilty.

     But what makes matters even more sobering is the realization that James is talking hypothetically.  There has been no person who just erred once.  Reality is that we stumble and err regularly.  There are so many good things we fail to do – so many sinful thoughts, words, and actions that we end up doing.  No matter how hard we try, all we can do is dig ourselves into a deeper hole. This contrast: “offend in one point – guilty of all” makes for an airtight case.  If a person’s obedience isn’t perfect – if there is just one slip – he is guilty – guilty of all.

     That’s why I am so thankful that Jesus took all my guilt and became guilty in my place – and served my sentence.  That is why I am so thankful that Jesus was perfectly obedient and God credited that perfect obedience to me.  That is why, when I think of living eternally with heavenly Father the only work that I base that on is his work for me.  “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

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117 Responses to ““GUILTY””


  1. 1 geoff456
    June 17, 2009 at 1:13 am

    So, should we just give up? should we quit trying to keep the law?

    No, the point of James 2:10 is this: Salvation is gained by keeping the whole law and Faith without works is dead. (taken from the heading of the chapter)

    We have the opportunity to repent each and every time we sin. We have the opportunity to thus be washed clean of those sins BECAUSE THE SAVIOR OPENED THAT DOORWAY FOR US. His sacrifice gives us the chance to repent and be washed clean.

    And when we have given our best effort, grace takes over. We are saved by grace, after all we can do!

    ~Geoff

    So, it is not as hopeless and harsh as modern day Christendom would like you to believe….or is it as “easy”. There is work involved in “works”. There is effort involved in Salvation.

  2. 2 markcares
    June 17, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Geoff:
    Please expain in more detail your interpretation of James 2:10 especially the statement, “salvation is gained by keeping the whole law.” Who has to keep the whole law?

  3. 3 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    This really isn’t a hard concept to understand.

    1. All (except Jesus) have sinned, are declared “guilty” and would be forever lost.

    2. Jesus, through His atonement, makes effectual our repentance. (He paid the price so we don’t have to, IF we repent).

    3. Our repentance which is the turning away from sin and towards God, brings forgiveness of sin.

    4. When we repent, God remembers our sins no more and His (Jesus) righteousness is imputed to us. (It becomes as if we had never sinned.)

    God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins. That is why the message of repentance and forgiveness permeates the scriptures.

    As Paul says in ROMANS (yes that is right, in ROMANS)

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    . . .
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and IMPENITENT (<= take notice of that word, it means those that refuse to REPENT) heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST (in other words sins that have been REPENTED of), through the forbearance of God;

    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered (because they have repented).
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Because they have repented and been forgiven.)

    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (In other words REPENT!!!)
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (In other words REPENT!! and OBEY the commandments)
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: (because you are to REPENT) for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (In other words REPENT!! and OBEY the commandments)
    17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE (<= Notice the PAST tense? In other words they have REPENTED and are no longer) the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin (Through REPENTANCE), ye became the servants of righteousness. (In other they REPENTED!! and OBEY the commandments)

    So why do so many TOTALLY IGNORE these words of Paul in ROMANS and think that they need no repentance or obedience to be saved?

  4. 4 Brad
    June 17, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God, not by works, lest any man should boast.”

  5. 5 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ORDAINED that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (In other words REPENT!!)
    23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Through REPENTANCE!!)
    25 Wherefore putting away lying (REPENT!!), speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
    26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:(REPENT!!)
    27 Neither give place to the devil. (DON’T SIN)
    28 Let him that stole steal no more (REPENT): but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth (and be OBEDIENT).
    29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. (BE GOOD)
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption (BE GOOD).
    31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:(REPENT!!!)
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. (REPENTANCE brings FORGIVENESS)

    Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness (but have now repented), but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:(Because they had repented)
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) (and the Spirit is given to them that obey, see Acts 5:32)
    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

    So why do so many TOTALLY IGNORE these words of Paul in EPHESIANS and think that they need no repentance or obedience to be saved?

  6. 6 Brad
    June 17, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God, not by works, lest any man should boast.”

    So why do so many TOTALLY IGNORE these words of Paul in EPHESIANS and think that they need to perform works to be saved?

  7. 7 geoff456
    June 17, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    Brad,

    We don’t ever ignore Ephesians, we DO NOT believe we are saved by our works. We are saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ AFTER all we can do. We do our part, HE does His part. His part just happens to be infinite….ours is not. But ours IS required. EFFORT is required. WE CAN’T do it without HIM. We cannot boast that our works have saved us because we know that our works are a requirement for his Grace….not a requirement for saving ourselves. In other words: Our works do NOT save us….they simply open the door for Grace to kick in.
    And THAT is totally in alignment with the every prophet and teacher in the Bible.

    ~Geoff

  8. 8 markcares
    June 17, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    GB:
    Am I then to understand that you are not in sin?

  9. 9 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    Brad,

    NO ONE is denying that we are saved by GRACE.

    No matter how righteous we are, we don’t have the power to save ourselves, to climb out of the grave and up to heaven, otherwise we would be able to boast of our own power/righteousness.

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God, not by works, lest any man should boast.”

    The grace of forgiveness/mercy is given to the penitent/obedient.
    Isa. 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Repentance is a commandment and a grace/gift. Repentance brings the grace/gift of forgiveness.

    If we keep God’s commandments (including repentance) and endure to the end, God will GIVE us eternal life. Which is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

  10. 10 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 8:08 pm

    Mark,

    Have you ever heard of a “red herring”?

    Rather than trying to change the subject and making this about me, why don’t we just keep it about Jesus and His Gospel?

  11. 11 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 8:36 pm

    Brad,

    Lest we forget, the commandments of God are a grace/gift from God as well.

  12. 12 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

  13. 13 markcares
    June 17, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    Gb:
    That’s no red herring. That’s an honest question generated by your response in #3. Your responsec causes me to believe that you think you are no longer in sin. Otherwise, according to it, you couldn’t be saved.

  14. 14 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 9:59 pm

    Mark,

    What you think about me is irrelevant to this exchange and to the truthfulness of my position/argument (and to my relationship with God and to my salvation).

    Your responses and questions cause me to wonder if you are more interested in attacking me personally (ad hominem) than in attacking my argument. Otherwise you would refute my argument and leave me out of it.

    Is my argument so strong and yours so weak that you have to resort to personal attacks?

  15. 15 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    Ezekiel 18:19 ¶ Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
    20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
    23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
    24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

  16. 16 markcares
    June 17, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    GB:
    I fail to see how my question to you is an attack on you. You said: “God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins.” I asked: “Am I then to understand that you are not in sin?” How is that an attack?? That, my friend, is not an attack, that is a honest question. It only seems logical to conclude that if God doesn’t save people in their sins, then that means the people who are saved are no longer in sin. The logical conclusion to your own statement is that if you are saved, then you are no longer in sin. If that is what you believe,it seems that you should be eager to testify to that.

  17. 17 ADB
    June 17, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    GB,

    From a Christian perspective, it appears once again that you reverse the order of justification and sanctification (as I know Echo has tried to point out in other threads). Sanctification (holy living) doesn’t come before justification (God’s declaration of “not guilty” to the world on account of Jesus).

    After Brad quoted the justification portion of Ephesians 2, you then pointed to verse 10 as evidence that works and repentance are a requirement before we can receive the grace/salvation of which Paul speaks in the verses prior. Here’s the problem: Verse 10 states that the good works were already prepared/ordained in advance for us to do. In other words, before we even had the chance to repent, God had planned we believers would be doing good works. If obedience/repentance is required on our part (and not wholly God’s work in us) in order to receive the gift of grace/repentance, as you state it, then how is it that God had already prepared these good things for us before we were even in existence?

    I don’t know if my point is clear or not, so I’m happy to clarify if need be. Could you explain your take on this? Thanks-much appreciated.

  18. 18 GB
    June 17, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    M: I fail to see how my question to you is an attack on you.

    GB: Hello! I didn’t claim you attacked me.

    M: You said: “God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins.”

    GB: Yes, I did.

    M: I asked: “Am I then to understand that you are not in sin?”

    GB: A “red herring” to be sure. Either refute my argument or concede.

    M: How is that an attack??

    GB: Hello! I didn’t claim you attacked me. Are you now resorting to twisting my words?

    M: That, my friend, is not an attack, . . .

    GB: On this we can agree.

    M: . . . that is a honest question.

    GB: It is an irrelevant question.

    M: It only seems logical to conclude that if God doesn’t save people in their sins, then that means the people who are saved are no longer in sin.

    GB: It is logical that salvation is entering into heaven, then that means that people who are saved are no longer in this mortal realm.

    M: The logical conclusion to your own statement is that if you are saved, then you are no longer in sin.

    GB: The logical conclusion is that if I were saved I wouldn’t be here.

    M: If that is what you believe,it seems that you should be eager to testify to that.

    GB: A faulty conclusion based on faulty premises.

    Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
    8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
    9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
    10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
    11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
    13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
    14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
    15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
    17 ¶ Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
    18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
    19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
    20 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

  19. 19 markcares
    June 17, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    GB:
    You said: “Your responses and questions cause me to wonder if you are more interested in attacking me personally (ad hominem) than in attacking my argument. Otherwise you would refute my argument and leave me out of it.

    Is my argument so strong and yours so weak that you have to resort to personal attacks?”

    It sure sounds to me like you were saying I was resorting to personal attacks.

    And thanks for clarifying fo rme that you aren’t saved.

  20. 20 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 12:34 am

    Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM THEIR SINS.

    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

  21. 21 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 1:53 am

    ADB: From a Christian perspective, . . .

    GB: Correction! From an Evangelical Christian perspective, . . .

    Which, of course, is a minority Christian perspective.

    ADB: . . . it appears once again that you reverse the order of justification and sanctification. Sanctification (holy living) doesn’t come before justification (God’s declaration of “not guilty” to the world on account of Jesus).

    GB: I have posted ample scriptures that clearly show that repentance procedes forgiveness/justification. Sanctification is the purification by the Holy Ghost that is given to the justified/obedient. So, no, I don’t have the order wrong.

    ADB: Here’s the problem: . . . for us before we were even in existence?

    GB: Here’s the problem: you assume that we didn’t exist before we were born. However we did exist as spirits before we were born, we existed prior to God preparing “these good things for us”. Sorry, but your premise is flawed, as is your conclusion.

  22. 22 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 2:42 am

    Geoff said:

    “We don’t ever ignore Ephesians, we DO NOT believe we are saved by our works. We are saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ AFTER all we can do. We do our part, HE does His part. His part just happens to be infinite….ours is not. But ours IS required. EFFORT is required. WE CAN’T do it without HIM. We cannot boast that our works have saved us because we know that our works are a requirement for his Grace….not a requirement for saving ourselves. In other words: Our works do NOT save us….they simply open the door for Grace to kick in.
    And THAT is totally in alignment with the every prophet and teacher in the Bible.”

    Echo:

    If works open the door to grace kicking in, then works(EFFORT) are earning that grace. I would be living with constant fear of whether or not I have put in enough EFFORT.

    However if God opens the door of grace first without works (without EFFORT), then I can go forth and do good works out of thanks and without fear.

    1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

  23. 23 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 3:04 am

    GB said:

    “Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM THEIR SINS.”

    Echo:

    In your quote it says Jesus shall save people FROM THEIR SINS. Yet Jesus isn’t saving you from your sins. Your saving yourself from your sins by overcoming them in order to be forgiven.

  24. 24 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 3:35 am

    Echo: Yet Jesus isn’t saving you from your sins.

    GB: So you have usurpted Jesus’ position as Judge have you?

    Echo: Your saving yourself from your sins by overcoming them in order to be forgiven.

    GB: Jesus is saving by helping me overcome sin and by forgiving my sins when I do so. Without His forgiveness there is no eternal life.

    Repentance is a grace. Forgiveness is a grace.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made FREE FROM SIN (through repentance), ye became the servants of righteousness (through obedience).
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye WERE the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made FREE FROM SIN (through repentance), and become servants to God (through obedience), ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

  25. 25 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 3:37 am

    GB: Jesus is saving me by helping me overcome sin and by forgiving my sins when I do so. Without His forgiveness there is no eternal life.

    There! Fixed it.

  26. 26 Brad
    June 18, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Geoff, how many works are required, before grace kicks in? How does one ever know if they’ve done enough to merit grace? How does a Mormon know if they’ve done “all they can do”? What if you HAVEN’T done “all you can do” – does grace still kick in?

    I’m sorry, that simply doesn’t line up with an appropriate interpretation of Scripture – we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

  27. 27 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    GB, Can you share with me in all honesty, with God as your witness, how the LDS teaching that your not forgiven until you overcome your sins effects you emotionally? (while your trying to overcome your sins)

    To be honest, with God as my witness, this LDS teaching would cause me to sink into sadness or depression or fear. While we are here on earth, we will never be sinless. If God only forgives us after we have overcome sin, then there would always be this huge gap between us and God because of his witholding forgiveness for the sins we have yet to overcome. A gap that can never be filled on this earth. That gap would rob us of all peace with God.

    My conscience is so fine tuned that is sounds warning bells every day of my life. It would be devastating to think to myself every day that God is witholding forgiveness from me again today and every day! What sadness it would cause me to be seperated from God and his love in that way every single day and to have to be my own Savior from sin!

    I am so glad that I don’t have to live with that sadness and fear! I KNOW every day that I am forgiven. I am forgiven because of what Jesus has done for me and not because of my performance in first overcoming my sins. Jesus is my savior, I am not my own Savior.

    I have perfect peace with God every single day of my life and because of that, I want to overcome my sins! But I want to do it because I am already forgiven! That is where I find the strength and desire to love an amazing God such as this!

    GB, do you have peace with God?

  28. 28 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Isa 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
    17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
    18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

  29. 29 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    . . .
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

  30. 30 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

  31. 31 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

  32. 32 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    GB, You didn’t answer my two questions.

  33. 33 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Echo,

    You didn’t acknowledge the verses that I posted. That last one is so clear, let me re-post it.

    Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    My emotions and peace of mind are irrelevant to the truth of the scriptures.

  34. 34 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Luke 8:16 “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.”

    GB, I am not trying to put you on the spot by asking you these questions of the heart. But it is when we reveal what is in our hearts(emotions) that others can see the light of what we believe.

    GB, Can you share with me in all honesty, with God as your witness, how the LDS teaching that your not forgiven until you overcome your sins effects you emotionally? (while your trying to overcome your sins)

    GB, do you have peace with God?

  35. 35 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    GB said:

    Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Echo:

    I repent every day. I turn from my sin in sorrow and turn to Jesus for forgiveness.

    GB said:

    My emotions and peace of mind are irrelevant to the truth of the scriptures.

    Echo:

    Your emotions and peace are VERY relevant to the truth of scriptures my freind. God wants to impact your emotions in a wonderful way! Because he loves you so much! I KNOW he does!

    Luke 8:16 “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.”

    GB, I am not trying to put you on the spot by asking you these questions of the heart. But it is when we reveal what is in our hearts(emotions) that others can see the light of what we believe and how God has impacted our hearts. We don’t want to hide our emotions in a jar or put it under a bed. We want to put them on a stand as a light.

    At the same time, God wants us to worship him in Spirit and in truth. Hiding our emotions, even if they are negative, isn’t worshipping him in truth. It is hiding the truth.

    If your struggling with negative emotions, it’s good to share those also because God can then use someone to help you overcome those negative emotions.

    Can I politely ask of you again:

    GB, Can you share with me in all honesty, with God as your witness, how the LDS teaching that your not forgiven until you overcome your sins effects you emotionally? (while your trying to overcome your sins)

    GB, do you have peace with God?

  36. 36 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Echo: I repent every day. I turn from my sin in sorrow and turn to Jesus for forgiveness.

    GB: Good for you.

    Echo: Your emotions and peace are VERY relevant to the truth of scriptures my freind.

    GB: The truth of the scriptures do not change with my emotions or peace of mind. Therefore my emotions and peace of mind are irrelevant to the truth of the scriptures.

    Why are you guys trying to turn the discussion from the scriptures to me personally? Is it because you can’t refute my arguments?

    You could just concede.

    Echo: God wants to impact your emotions in a wonderful way! Because he loves you so much! I KNOW he does!

    GB: How do you know that he hasn’t or doesn’t? Again, why are you guys trying to make this about me?

    Echo: I am not trying to put you on the spot by asking you these questions of the heart.

    GB: Let’s see, would I have reason to question your sincerity?

    Echo (June 11, 2009 at 5:45 pm) Addressing GB
    “You are now guilty of slander. You have broken the entire set of commandments . . . ”

    GB: For some reason Matt 7:6 comes to mind.

  37. 37 Brad
    June 18, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God, not by works, lest any man should boast.”

    If all GB wants do to is quote Scripture, rather than discuss, since he’s trying to play the martyr, I’ll just continue to quote this Scripture, which is amazingly obvious. If we’re only going to use Scripture, GB, this refutes any notion that works are required, or efficacious, for our salvation at all.

  38. 38 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Hello!! Earth to Brad!!!

    See my post (#9) June 17, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    Unlike others here I addressed/discussed your scripture.

    How about we discuss the meaning of this verse?

    Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

  39. 39 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    GB:

    Pointing out your sin doesn’t make me a dog or a pig. James 5:20 “Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” I apologize that you “feel” “torn to peices” but that was not my intent for you at all. I meant you no harm in that, I intended it for your good. I truly care about your eternal welfare to “save you from death” as James 5:20 explains.

    You also use derogatory comments(sin) aimed at others in many of your posts and then claim to be saved by obeying ALL the commandments. Again, I don’t say this to tear you to peices but to reveal to you that your actions and your teaching contradict each other. I am trying to show you that you don’t obey ALL the commandments and so your hope of gaining eternal life through obedience to ALL of the commandments isn’t realistic because you cannot carry it out. (again, I am not trying to put you down or anything like that by pointing out your sin. I can’t obey ALL the commandments either no matter how much I would like to obey ALL the commandments)I am trying to get you to be realistic(truthful) about yourself compared with or to the teaching you believe in.

    GB said:

    ” The truth of the scriptures do not change with my emotions or peace of mind. Therefore my emotions and peace of mind are irrelevant to the truth of the scriptures.

    Why are you guys trying to turn the discussion from the scriptures to me personally? Is it because you can’t refute my arguments?”

    We don’t have the desire to refute every argument you make, this isn’t a war as if it was Us against you. We are trying to be on the same team as you. The truth of the scriptures impact our emotions and peace of mind just as false teachings can impact our emotions and peace of mind. My beliefs about God impact me on an emotional level. Faith resides in the heart!

    It is on this emotional level that faith becomes real not only for ourselves but as a light in the world of darkness.

    I won’t force you to answer, I just think this emotional aspect of faith is very vital to discussions. It’s important to see how teachings impact emotions and therefore LIFE itself!

    May God Bless you and keep you my freind.

  40. 40 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    James 5:20 “Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”

    That is a WONDERFUL scripture!!!!

    Turning “a sinner from the error of his way” is the same as getting him to REPENT!!!!

    Must I re-post all of those scriptures that call to repentance the sinner, so that they may be forgiven?

    Can I take this as an acknowledgment that we are in agreement that REPENTANCE (turning from the error of his way) brings FORGIVENESS (cover over a multitude of sins)?

    We could have saved each other a lot of work if you would have just acknowledged this at the beginning.

  41. 41 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Your getting sidetracked away from the discussion at hand.

  42. 42 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    What?

    Whatever!

    The topic at hand.

    From post # 3 above.

    This really isn’t a hard concept to understand.

    1. All (except Jesus) have sinned, are declared “guilty” and would be forever lost.

    2. Jesus, through His atonement, makes effectual our repentance. (He paid the price so we don’t have to, IF we repent).

    3. Our repentance which is the turning away from sin and towards God, brings forgiveness of sin.

    4. When we repent, God remembers our sins no more and His (Jesus) righteousness is imputed to us. (It becomes as if we had never sinned.)

    God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins. That is why the message of repentance and forgiveness permeates the scriptures.

  43. 43 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    I just think this emotional aspect of faith is very vital to discussions. It’s important to see how teachings impact emotions and therefore LIFE itself!

    GB, Can you share with me in all honesty, with God as your witness, how the LDS teaching that your not forgiven until you overcome your sins effects you emotionally? (while your trying to overcome your sins)

    GB, do you have peace with God?

  44. 44 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    In Romans 8:26 Paul describes being unable to verbalize the things we should pray for and having the Spirit making intercession and communicating directly with God in a manner beyond words.

    I find myself in the same condition when trying to describe the feelings of love and peace that fill my heart and my mind, my soul, when thinking upon my Savior and His atonement. It is beyond words, and an effort to try and verbalize it seems only to cheapen it to me.

    I can not wear the inexpressible upon my sleeve to flaunt before the world. I hold it sacred within my soul.

    Those who have similarly “felt to sing the song of redeeming love”, know of what I speak. To them, no more need said.

    To those that would mock, no amount of words will satisfy.

  45. 45 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    I suppose I know the feeling of trying to describe the feelings of love and peace that fill my mind and heart at times. Thank you for sharing a part of your heart with us.

    Do you ever have feelings of fear?

  46. 46 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    Again I am not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

    I occasionally fear for the future of my country. Yet I believe in the sovereignty of God and put my trust in Him and not in the arm of flesh.

  47. 47 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    Do you ever have fear when your in the process of overcoming your sins? Or Fear that your not forgiven? Does the idea that you might not gain eternal life ever cause you fear?

  48. 48 GB
    June 18, 2009 at 9:58 pm

    I know that all will be brought before the Judgment bar of God.

    And in each and every case, He will administer the perfect balance of justice and mercy.

    Each and every knee shall bow and tongue confess that, either to their everlasting shame, or everlasting joy, that His judgments are just, and that He is merciful to men.

    So why should I fear?

  49. 49 geoff456
    June 18, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    Hi Brad,

    We are told we have to endure to the end. so, if we endure faithfully to the end then that is enough. And, who says ANYONE knows their situation before we face judgement?

    You (figuratively) might “know” you are saved, but you might be one of the “not everyone that says “Lord, Lord” ” kind of people. :)

    And lastly, Grace isn’t a one time shot. I experience grace daily as I repent and start over. Sometimes I think that your brand of Christianity denies people the blessings and power of God’s approval and love. He is aware when we serve Him, we get blessings when we serve Him. We grow into better people as we serve Him. He is a wise, loving Father that wants what is best for us. We will be judged by our hearts and our love for Him, among other things of course. Our works matter. Our service matters. Our covenant-keeping matters.

    just some thoughts,

    geoff

  50. 50 Echo
    June 18, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    I believe you have great reason to fear as does Isaiah:

    Isaiah 64:6 “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

    “Filthy rags” is what our righteous acts are because of our sins.

  51. 51 GB
    June 19, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    This really isn’t a hard concept to understand.

    1. All (except Jesus) have sinned, and are swept away because of sin and would be forever lost regardless of all our righteous acts making them like filthy rags.

    2. Jesus, through His atonement, makes effectual our repentance. (He paid the price so we don’t have to, IF we repent).

    3. Our repentance which is the turning away from sin and towards God, brings forgiveness of sin.

    4. When we repent, God remembers our sins no more and His (Jesus) righteousness is imputed to us. (It becomes as if we had never sinned.)

    God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins. That is why the message of repentance and forgiveness permeates the scriptures.

  52. 52 GB
    June 19, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled (with the Holy Ghost).
    . . .
    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    So why should I fear?

  53. 53 GB
    June 19, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Echo,

    I would like to thank you for putting me in the same category as Isaiah, although I don’t think I yet qualify.

    Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me (Isaiah), . . . and said, . . . thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

    It does give me reason to rejoice and fear not.

    Thanks.

  54. 54 GB
    June 19, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    Echo,
    This is what Jesus said about Isaiah, “And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

    For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

    And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.
    (3 Nephi 23:1-3)

    Thanks again for putting me in the same category as Isaiah, although I don’t think I deserve it.

  55. 55 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 1:26 am

    You live your life wondering whether or not your forgiven.
    I live my life knowing I AM forgiven.

    You live your life wondering whether or not you will gain eternal life.
    I live my life with a certainty of knowing I have eternal life.

    What causes these differences between us? The answer is JESUS.

    You are your own Savior therefore your forgiveness and whether or not you gain eternal life Is all dependant on YOU and what YOU DO. Which is what makes you your own savior. Therefore your salvation isn’t “finished” until your done doing what you must do to be your own Savior.

    JESUS is my savior. Therefore my forgiveness and eternal life both depended on JESUS and what JESUS DID. Therefore my salvation is “finished” because Jesus said: “It is finished!”

  56. 56 Brad
    June 22, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Geoff,

    Nope, I’m sure of my salvation, buddy. I have no doubts that when I face judgment (which as a Christian, won’t be for my salvation, but rather a judgment of my works, to receive heavenly crowns), that my salvation is secure now, kept for me, as 1 Peter describes.

    If you are NOT so sure, I truly feel sorry for you, as you are truly missing out.

  57. 57 GB
    June 22, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Echo,

    That is the best refutation you can make up?

    You can disregard the clear and plain words of Jesus and other prophets and apostles if you want.

    But why get down on me because I don’t?

  58. 58 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Jesus’ clear and plain words are that you must be perfect BEFORE you can even begin to follow him.

  59. 59 GB
    June 22, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Echo,

    Are you trying to change the topic again. You know the old “red herring” trick!

    We already addressed that issue. Did you miss it?

    See post #76 of “STIMULATING DISCUSSION OR ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES”.

    To save you time I will just re-post the important part.

    GB: Not really, that is just your twisting of his words.
    Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

    This is a clear reference to the resurrection of Jesus. According to Jesus, he became perfected upon His resurrection. Can you do better than him?

    Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    The saints (followers of Jesus) are in the process of being perfected. Are you better than them?

    2 Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Notice the future tense “may be”? Men of God, who follow Jesus are not required to be perfect. Are you better than them?

    Heb. 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    So Jesus became perfect through sufferings, which occurred at the end of His life. Are you better than Him?

    Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Jesus was made perfect when He was resurrected. Are you better than Him?

    Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    We can go on to perfection by following the principles of the doctrine of Christ. Not before.

    Heb. 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    We become perfect by doing his will. Not before then.

  60. 60 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    Jesus was always sinless. In that way, he was always perfect and wasn’t perfected.
    When scripture talks about Jesus being made perfect, he was made perfect in the sense that he hadn’t yet completed that for which he came. He came to suffer and die for the sins of the entire world and to reconcile the world to God. He was the sacrificial lamb of God. In that sense, he wouldn’t be perfected until he was crucified and risen having THEN become the perfect sacrifice.

    I am not talking about how Jesus was perfected. I am talking about sinless perfection.

    Jesus suffered and was crucified to pay your sin debt in full to set you free from any debt. You reject that payment in favor of paying your own sin debt. Therefore you reject what Jesus has done for you.

    Jesus has made you perfect and has given you eternal life. He is your Savior.
    But you reject that and have become your own Savior. That is clear because your forgiveness and eternal life all rest on what YOU DO rather than it resting on what JESUS HAS already DONE FOR YOU.

    Jesus has made you perfect forever and you reject what he has done for you.

  61. 61 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Those who are perfect forever because of what Jesus alone has done THEN begin to follow him. They know they are 100% forgiven, and they know they have eternal life because Jesus has made them perfect forever. They THEN begin becomming perfect just as in Christ, they are already perfect.

    Hebrews 10:14 “because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy”

    Jesus has credited his righteousness to our account. Believe it:

    Romans 9:30 “What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;”

    You believe you are made righteous by pursuing God’s law but you will not attain it:

    Romans 9:31 “but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it..”

    You do not know that righteousness comes from God as a free gift through faith alone therefore you are trying to become righteous through God’s law:

    Romans 10:3 “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.”

    Christ is the end of “doing all you can do” and now righteosness is for everyone who believes. Christ is the end of “DO…, DO…, DO…” he has said it is “DONE”:

    Romans 10:4 “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes”

  62. 62 GB
    June 22, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    E: Jesus was always sinless. In that way, he was always perfect and wasn’t perfected. When scripture talks about Jesus being made perfect, he was made perfect in the sense that he hadn’t yet completed that for which he came. He came to suffer and die for the sins of the entire world and to reconcile the world to God. He was the sacrificial lamb of God. In that sense, he wouldn’t be perfected until he was crucified and risen having THEN become the perfect sacrifice.

    GB: So then He wasn’t perfected (or finished) until AFTER His resurrection. Resurrection completed His perfection.

    E: I am not talking about how Jesus was perfected. I am talking about sinless perfection.

    GB: So you are limiting the meaning of “perfect” to your own definition and not in the way that Jesus used it. And this is supposed to be convincing?

    E: Jesus suffered and was crucified to pay your sin debt in full to set you free from any debt.

    GB: True.

    E: You reject that payment in favor of paying your own sin debt.

    GB: FALSE!!

    E: Therefore you reject what Jesus has done for you.

    GB: FALSE!!

    E: Jesus has made you perfect and has given you eternal life.

    GB: Not YET!!! Haven’t you been paying attention?

    E: He is your Savior.

    GB: TRUE!!

    E: But you reject that and have become your own Savior.

    GB: FALSE!!

    E: That is clear because your forgiveness and eternal life all rest on what YOU DO rather than it resting on what JESUS HAS already DONE FOR YOU.

    GB: FALSE!!

    E: Jesus has made you perfect forever . . .

    GB: Not YET!

    E: . . . and you reject what he has done for you.

    GB: FALSE!!! You really need to pay more attention.

    Heb 10:14
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

    King James Bible
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    American King James Version
    For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    American Standard Version
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Bible in Basic English
    Because by one offering he has made complete for ever those who are made holy.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Darby Bible Translation
    For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.

    English Revised Version
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

    Sanctification then perfection.

    This really isn’t a hard concept to understand.

    1. All (except Jesus) have sinned, and are swept away because of sin and would be forever lost regardless of all our righteous acts making them like filthy rags.

    2. Jesus, through His atonement, makes effectual our repentance. (He paid the price so we don’t have to, IF we repent).

    3. Our repentance which is the turning away from sin and towards God, brings forgiveness of sin.

    4. When we repent, God remembers our sins no more and His (Jesus) righteousness is imputed to us. (It becomes as if we had never sinned.)

    God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins. That is why the message of repentance and forgiveness permeates the scriptures.

    E: Jesus has credited his righteousness to our account. Believe it:

    GB: I do!!

    E: You believe you are made righteous by pursuing God’s law but you will not attain it:

    GB: I am simply following the teachings of Jesus and His prophets and apostles.

    E: You do not know that righteousness comes from God as a free gift through faith alone therefore you are trying to become righteous through God’s law:

    GB: I am simply following the teachings of Jesus and His prophets and apostles.

    E: Christ is the end of “doing all you can do” and now righteosness is for everyone who believes. Christ is the end of “DO…, DO…, DO…” he has said it is “DONE”:

    GB: If you believe in Jesus, you will also believe what He taught.

    Matt. 19:17 . . . but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Matt. 4:17 ¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    • • •
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

  63. 63 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 8:50 pm

    I can certainly respond point by point to all that you said. But I prefer to focus on one thing. The most important thing. Otherwise if we cover too much at once, understanding the most important concept then becomes lost in the fog because we are discussing too much at once. If you want me to respond point by point, I can do that later, just remind me.

    GB said:

    “King James Bible
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Sanctification then perfection.”

    Echo:

    We have been sanctified. Past tense not future tense:

    Hebrews 10:10 KJV “By the which will WE ARE sanctified (<- DONE, FINISHED, PAST TENSE) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

  64. 64 geoff456
    June 22, 2009 at 11:00 pm

    It’s just semantics, folks.

    past tense, future tense, present tense….whatever. Jesus Christ died that we might live. We must repent to qualify ourselves (He asked us to, we didn’t think it up) for His Grace.

    We are saved by grace AFTER all that we can do…in other words, We are saved AFTER we qualify; after we DO WHAT HE SAID WE SHOULD DO TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE, which is to repent and keep His commandments. He is the author of Salvation unto ALL who OBEY Him.

    Straight from the Bible.

    ~Geoff

  65. 65 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    Hebrews 10:10

    NIV “And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

    AMP “And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).” (Bracketed additions, not mine)

    NLT ” For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.”

    HCSB ” By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all”

    NIRV ” We have been made holy by what God wanted. We have been made holy because Jesus Christ offered his body once and for all time.”

  66. 66 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 11:12 pm

    Geoff said:

    “We are saved by grace AFTER all that we can do…in other words, We are saved AFTER we qualify”

    Repentance means turning from “qualifying” yourself by doing all you can do and turning to: trusting that Jesus has “qualified” you and has done all he can do for you.

  67. 67 Echo
    June 22, 2009 at 11:12 pm

    Hebrews 10:10

    NIV “And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

    AMP “And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).” (Bracketed additions, not mine)

    NLT ” For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.”

    HCSB ” By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all”

    NIRV ” We have been made holy by what God wanted. We have been made holy because Jesus Christ offered his body once and for all time.”

  68. June 23, 2009 at 7:45 am

    Other Book of Mormon passages make it fairly clear that “all you can do” is to repent. And that’s about it.

  69. 69 Brad
    June 23, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Geoff, it may be straight from the Bible, but you’ve misunderstood and misinterpreted it, that’s the problem.

  70. 70 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    I tried to post this yesterday. For some reason it tells me it was posted but it doesn’t show it. With that said back to the discussion.

    Hebrews 10:10 KJV “By the which will WE ARE sanctified (<- DONE, FINISHED, PAST TENSE) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

    Let's see, "are" is NOT past tense, it is second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative of be.

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10 By the which will (that is God's will) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    So yes, in the future, when we ARE sanctified, it will be because of the offering of Jesus Christ.

    You still haven't shown that perfection comes before sanctification. :-)

    Rom. 15:16 . . ., being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    The Holy Ghost sanctifies.

    Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    The Holy Ghost is given to the obedient.

    Those that follow Jesus (the obedient) are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    Simple logic!!

    Do you get it?

    E: I can certainly respond point by point to all that you said.

    GB: I would really like to see that.

  71. 71 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Mark,

    I seem to have a problem with my posts disappearing. Do you know why that might be?

  72. 72 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    Mark,

    I guess you can’t cut and paste from an online dictionary. Who knew.

  73. 73 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Echo,

    “Are” is not past tense, it is a second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative of be.

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10 By the which will (that is God’s will) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    So yes, in the future, when we ARE sanctified, it will be because of the offering of Jesus Christ.

  74. 74 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Cont.

    You still haven’t shown that perfection comes before sanctification.

    Rom. 15:16 . . ., being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    The Holy Ghost sanctifies.

    Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    The Holy Ghost is given to the obedient.

    Those that follow Jesus (the obedient) are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    Simple logic!!

    Do you get it?

    E: I can certainly respond point by point to all that you said.

    GB: I would really like to see that.

  75. 75 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Heb 10:10

    King James Bible
    By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    American King James Version
    By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    In the which will, we are sanctified by the oblation of the body of Jesus Christ once.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    New Jerusalem Bible
    And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all.

    21st Century King James Bible
    By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

  76. 76 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    NLT ” For God’s will was for us to be made <= future tense) holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.”

    New Century Version
    And because of this, we are made holy through the sacrifice Christ made in his body once and for all time.

    Contemporary English Version
    So we are made holy because Christ obeyed God and offered himself once for all.

  77. 77 Echo
    June 23, 2009 at 8:27 pm

    GB said:
    >>>>>>>>

    E: Jesus was always sinless. In that way, he was always perfect and wasn’t perfected. When scripture talks about Jesus being made perfect, he was made perfect in the sense that he hadn’t yet completed that for which he came. He came to suffer and die for the sins of the entire world and to reconcile the world to God. He was the sacrificial lamb of God. In that sense, he wouldn’t be perfected until he was crucified and risen having THEN become the perfect sacrifice.

    GB: So then He wasn’t perfected (or finished) until AFTER His resurrection. Resurrection completed His perfection.

    E: I am not talking about how Jesus was perfected. I am talking about sinless perfection.

    GB: So you are limiting the meaning of “perfect” to your own definition and not in the way that Jesus used it. And this is supposed to be convincing?

    Echo:
    >>>>>

    When Jesus was talking to the Rich man, he wasn’t telling the Rich man to become a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. No man can sacrifice himself for the sins of another because he himself is a sinner. Jesus wasn’t a sinner, he was perfect(never sinned). That is why he could sacrifice himself for the sins of the world. So Jesus wasn’t teaching the man to suffer and die for the sins of the world, he was teaching the Rich man that he had to be perfectly righteous(holy, sanctified). Jesus however was perfect (sinless, righteous) always. He wasn’t perfected in that way. He was perfected in the sense of having to submit to suffering and dying on the cross. If he hadn’t of suffered and died, he couldn’t be the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

  78. 78 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    So he was perfectly sinless, this point is not at issue. But being perfect in one or even several aspects does not perfected make. To be perfect in all aspects is what Jesus was referring to.

    So then as I said before, “you are limiting the meaning of “perfect” to your own definition and not in the way that Jesus used it. And this is supposed to be convincing?”

  79. 79 Echo
    June 23, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    GB said:

    “Are” is not past tense, it is a second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative of be.

    Echo:

    What you quoted supports what I am trying to convey to you.

    We have been sanctified. Past tense not future tense:

    Hebrews 10:10 KJV “By the which will WE ARE sanctified (<- DONE, FINISHED, PAST TENSE) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

    We were sanctified when Jesus through the offering of his body, suffered and died. This means that we are presently (present indicative-from your quote) sanctified.

    1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but YE ARE SANCTIFIED, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

    1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

    Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"

    Hebrews 10:29 "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Hebrews 2:11 " For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

  80. 80 Echo
    June 23, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    GB said:

    So he was perfectly sinless, this point is not at issue. But being perfect in one or even several aspects does not perfected make. To be perfect in all aspects is what Jesus was referring to.

    So then as I said before, “you are limiting the meaning of “perfect” to your own definition and not in the way that Jesus used it. And this is supposed to be convincing?”

    Echo:

    I am not limiting the meaning of perfect. You are bringing up an issue (How Jesus was perfected) that has nothing to do with our discussion. When I talk about perfection, I am referring only to Jesus’ sinless righteousness. Something he didn’t have to perfect.

  81. 81 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    Echo: I am not limiting the meaning of perfect.

    GB: HELLO!!! Earth to Echo!!!

    You are LIMITING the meaning of perfect to being “sinless” and excluding the perfection that comes with resurrection.

    E: You are bringing up an issue (How Jesus was perfected) that has nothing to do with our discussion.

    GB: HELLO!!! Earth to Echo!!
    We are talking about the perfection that Jesus was talking about.

    E: When I talk about perfection, I am referring only to Jesus’ sinless righteousness.

    GB: HELLO!!! Earth to Echo!!!

    “I am referring >>ONLY<< to Jesus’ sinless righteousness.

    You are limiting the meaning of perfect to being "sinless" and excluding the perfection that comes with resurrection.

    E: Something he didn’t have to perfect.

    GB: But the rest of us do. And we do it by FOLLOWING Jesus.

  82. 82 GB
    June 23, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    New Jerusalem Bible has future tense.

    NLT has future tense

    So your whole case is based upon something that is in question. And this is supposed to be convincing?

    E: We were sanctified when Jesus through the offering of his body, suffered and died. This means that we are presently (present indicative-from your quote) sanctified.

    GB: That is an unsupported assertion.

    Even if Heb 10:10 is “assumed” to be past tense to the recipients of said epistle, it ONLY tells HOW they “were” sanctified, NOT WHEN.

    If we assume that you are sanctified. It didn’t occur before you were born (you don’t believe you existed before you were born, correct?), so it could NOT have occurred when Jesus was sacrificed, but at some time during your life (if at all).

    “By the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”, tells us HOW, not WHEN.

    So you have it wrong!

  83. 83 Echo
    June 23, 2009 at 11:57 pm

    GB said:
    ========

    HELLO!!! Earth to Echo!!!

    Echo:
    =====

    I am not limiting the meaning of “perfect” nor excluding how Jesus was perfected. I am trying to discuss Jesus’ sinless perfection alone. Your expanding into another topic all together.
    We can NEVER be perfected to be a sacrifice for sin because we are sinners. Jesus was sinless, he never sinned, therefore only he can be a sacrifice for sin. I sincerely apologize for not being able to find the words to make that more simpler for you to understand.

    GB said:
    ========

    New Jerusalem Bible has future tense.

    NLT has future tense

    Echo:
    =====

    They don’t have future tense, what the verse is implying is that we are Holy because of the sacrifice of Jesus:

    NLT ” For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.”

    GB said:
    =======

    So your whole case is based upon something that is in question. And this is supposed to be convincing?

    ECHO:
    =====

    Every translation including your own quote from the concordance shows that our view is the correct one. There are also many passages that speak about this using the word “righteousness”. We are righteous by grace through faith and not through the law.

    GB said:
    ========

    E: We were sanctified when Jesus through the offering of his body, suffered and died. This means that we are presently (present indicative-from your quote) sanctified.

    GB: That is an unsupported assertion.

    Echo:
    =====

    It is well supported. Check out all the passages about “righteousness”.

    GB said:
    ========

    “Even if Heb 10:10 is “assumed” to be past tense to the recipients of said epistle, it ONLY tells HOW they “were” sanctified, NOT WHEN.

    If we assume that you are sanctified. It didn’t occur before you were born (you don’t believe you existed before you were born, correct?), so it could NOT have occurred when Jesus was sacrificed, but at some time during your life (if at all).

    “By the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”, tells us HOW, not WHEN.

    So you have it wrong!

    Echo:
    =====

    It occurred when Jesus was sacrificed himself, as the passage says. It is realized personally through faith alone.

  84. 84 GB
    June 24, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    E: I am not limiting the meaning of “perfect” nor excluding how Jesus was perfected. I am trying to discuss Jesus’ sinless perfection alone.

    GB: Not seeing the obvious are you? You are limiting the meaning while denying it. Duh!!

    E: We can NEVER be perfected to be a sacrifice for sin because we are sinners.

    GB: Although true, this point is irrelevant to this discussion.

    E: Jesus was sinless, he never sinned, therefore only he can be a sacrifice for sin.

    GB: Although true, this point is irrelevant to this discussion.

    E: I sincerely apologize for not being able to find the words to make that more simpler for you to understand.

    GB: It might help if you stopped denying the obvious. I am talking about the perfection that Jesus was talking about, you are talking about YOUR definition ONLY. Jesus’ usage is more inclusive than yours.

    Hello earth to Echo!!

    “to be” is future tense!!

    Hello earth to Echo!!

    “By the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”, “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”, “by the oblation of the body of Jesus Christ”, tells us HOW, not WHEN.

    Ignoring the obvious doesn’t make it go away.

    Were you sanctified before you “accepted” Jesus?

    NO!!!

    Our sanctification begins when we are given the Holy Ghost (which comes from obedience). Ignoring this fact doesn’t make it go away.

    STILL waiting for you to respond to those verses on perfection that you said you would respond to. I look forward to seeing the contortions.

  85. 85 Echo
    June 24, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    GB,

    I want to tell you something as a freind to you.

    You come here claiming that you are saved by obedience to ALL the commandments. You repeatedly fail to obey ALL the commandments. Your sins testify against you. You CANNOT carry on a respectful and loving conversation, it seems impossible for you.

    What you preach and what you practice, contradict each other. Jesus taught that their are two kinds of people. Those on his right and those on his left. Those who have eternal life and those who go to Outer Darkness.

    You are heading toward Outer Darkness.

    You too can have eternal life if you stop trusting in yourself and what you must do and instead start trusting in Jesus and what he has done for you.

    The moment you believe, you will know you have eternal life and you will know all your sins are forgiven. You will be set free!

    May God Bless you and Keep you!

  86. 86 GB
    June 24, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    E: You come here claiming that you are saved by obedience to ALL the commandments.

    GB: Just quoting Jesus. Do you believe Him?

    E: You repeatedly fail to obey ALL the commandments. Your sins testify against you.

    GB: So rather than address my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks?

    E: You CANNOT carry on a respectful and loving conversation, it seems impossible for you.

    GB: So rather than address my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks?

    E: What you preach and what you practice, contradict each other.

    GB: So rather than address my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks?

    E: Jesus taught that their are two kinds of people. Those on his right and those on his left. Those who have eternal life and those who go to Outer Darkness.

    GB: True, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Why don’t you just address my arguments in a logical, honest way.

    E: You are heading toward Outer Darkness.

    GB: So rather than address my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks?

    E: You too can have eternal life if you stop trusting in yourself and what you must do and instead start trusting in Jesus and what he has done for you.

    GB: It is obvious that you don’t know me. You should NOT condemn someone in your ignorance.

    E: The moment you believe, you will know you have eternal life and you will know all your sins are forgiven. You will be set free!

    GB: A rather bald assertion. By that standard, I am already saved. So what is your point?

    E: May God Bless you and Keep you!

    GB: Does this mean that you aren’t going to address the verses on perfection that you said you would? Does this mean that you can’t address them and for some reason are unwilling to concede?

  87. 87 Echo
    June 24, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    GB said:

    “GB: So rather than address my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks?”

    Echo:

    Take the plank out of your own eye my freind.
    I don’t mind addressing all your arguments but it’s your continual “ad hominem attacks” against me and others that makes the discussion pointless because it creates such a hostile learning enviroment. I don’t want to take part in a hostile learning enviroment, I am more interested in peaceful, loving and respectful exchange with the LDS.

    What I said to you in my last post was in obedience to one of God’s commands:

    Ezekial 33:8 “When I say to the wicked man, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood”

    We want to discuss doctrine with LDS people in love and respect, if you would like to discuss things with love and respect, I am very willing to continue discussions with you.

    Let’s be freinds, it’s your choice.

  88. 88 GB
    June 24, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    Echo,

    LOL!!! So you can dish out the personal attacks but you can’t take them (even when they are only in your own mind). LOL!!!

    So you want me to REPENT from my supposed sins! LOL!!

    Do you believe in repentance for forgiveness after all?

    If you would have admitted this earlier we could have avoid all this work.

    As your friend, I have been showing you what the Bible REALLY says in clear and plain terms. And as your friend I suggest that put the clear and plain words of Jesus in the preeminent position instead of the misunderstood words of Paul.

    PS Even Peter, a contemporary of Paul (and speaking the same language and likely looking at a more accurate transcription, if not the autograph) had a hard time understanding the words of Paul.

    2 Pet 3:15 . . . even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    If the words of Paul are “hard to be understood” then they are easy to be misunderstood.

    And here you are thinking you can reach across 2 millennia and different languages and who knows how many transcriptions and can fully understand what Paul meant.

    Again, As your friend, I suggest you put the words of Jesus first and then reconcile the words of Paul to the clear and plain words of Jesus, instead of the other way around.

  89. 89 Echo
    June 25, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    I havn’t pointed out your sin because “I can’t take them” as you coined it. I havn’t pointed them out for my sake at all, but only just for your sake.

    I have pointed them out to show you the impossibility of gaining eternal life by “doing all you can do” because you fail to do all you can do. My hope is that you would recognize that about yourself and repent. Repent means that you would “turn from” trusting in yourself(doing all you can do) and instead “turn to” Jesus who has “done all that he can do” in your place, in your behalf.

    Have a good day.

  90. 90 GB
    June 25, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Echo,

    News flash for you, I accepted Jesus a long time ago. I also accepted what He taught.
    Your continued ad hominem attacks are a red herring.

    Address my arguments or concede.

    STILL waiting for you to respond to those verses on perfection that you said you would respond to. I look forward to seeing the contortions.

  91. 91 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 7:39 am

    GB said:
    =======

    Heb 10:14
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

    King James Bible
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    American King James Version
    For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    American Standard Version
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Bible in Basic English
    Because by one offering he has made complete for ever those who are made holy.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Darby Bible Translation
    For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.

    English Revised Version
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

    Echo:
    =====

    All the verses speak in past/present tense. “He HATH perfected”, “He HAS perfected” etc.
    According to your beliefs, these verses all should say: “He will perfect”.

    GB said:
    =======

    Sanctification then perfection.

    Echo:
    ====

    Justification comes before Sanctification.

    In justification we are made perfect because Christ has imputed his righteousness to our account. God only justifies the UNGODLY.

    Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

    Romans 5:6 “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the UNGODLY.

    This is justification:

    Christ’s righteousness is like a royal robe. He gives us that robe to wear. Whenever God looks at us, all he sees is the righteousness of Christ. Luther once said that we are like “snow covered dung”. What he intended is that we are adorned with the robe of Christ’s righteousness while underneath we are sinners.

    We have already been declared perfect because of what Jesus has done for us. Jesus took our sin and suffered the punishment we deserve, but he also credited to our account his perfect righteousness. We now are righteous because of Jesus through faith alone. Whenever God looks at us, all he sees is the righteousness of Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and it’s a free gift. (We don’t do all we can do to gain this standing)

    Phil 3:9 “and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.”

    Anyone who believes they are saved by grace after doing all they can do to obey ALL the commandments believes in a righteousness that comes from the law. This is what you believe but the scripture here says that we do not have a righteousness of our own that comes from the law. Instead, we have a righteousness that comes FROM GOD.

    What we HAVE been made by faith alone (righteous, perfect forever), we will become out of thanks to God for having imputed to us the perfection of Christ.

    Romans 5:17-18 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.”

    If YOU have to DO something, it’s no longer a FREE gift.

    Justification (having been made perfect through faith) is followed by Sanctification (becoming that which we already are in Christ)

    Christ is the end of “doing all you can do” and now righteousness is for everyone who believes. Christ is the end of “DO…, DO…, DO…” he has said it is “DONE”

    Once we are justified through faith alone because it is DONE, we know we are saved, we know we have eternal life, we know we are completely forgiven. This is when sanctification begins. Because God has saved us, because God has given us eternal life, because we know our sins are forgiven, we put our trust in him and his work rather than putting our trust in our work. Forever trusting in his work and not our own work, God then transforms us over time and throughout our lives, to be more and more like him.

    GB said:
    =======

    God saves us from our sins. He does not save us in our sins. That is why the message of repentance and forgiveness permeates the scriptures.

    Echo:
    =====

    Think about it…there is never a time in your life when you are not “in your sins”. All Christian’s struggle with sin every day. According to your theology, that means you are never forgiven. That means you are not saved.

  92. 92 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    E: According to your beliefs, these verses all should say: “He will perfect”.

    GB: You are clearly misunderstanding what this verse CLEARLY says. Let me rephrase it for you and then MAYBE you will understand it.

    “them that are <= present indicative) sanctified", "he hath perfected for ever", "by one offering"

    In other words those that are sanctified are then perfected. Get it?

    E: In justification we are made perfect because Christ has imputed his righteousness to our account. God only justifies the UNGODLY.

    GB: In justification, through repentance and obedience, we are made perfect because Christ will impute his righteousness to our account.

    God justifies the UNGODLY who repent and obey. There fixed it for you.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God (and OBEYED Him), and it was counted unto him for righteousness (in other words His sins were forgiven).
    . . .
    5 But to him that worketh not (the law of Moses), but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (when they repent), his faith is counted for righteousness (his sins are forgiven).
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness (forgives sins) without works (of the law of Moses),
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven (because they repented), and whose sins are covered (because they repented see James 5:20).
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin (or forgives because he repented).

    Christ’s righteousness is like a royal robe. He gives us that robe to wear when we believe Him, repent of our sins and obey His commandments. If we do this then when God looks at us, all He sees is the righteousness of Christ. The Lord once said "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"; What He intended is that we are adorned with the robe of Christ’s righteousness while underneath we are penitent former sinners.

    Jesus took our sin and suffered the punishment we deserve, but he will credit to our account his perfect righteousness when we repent and obey His commandments. Then whenever God looks at us, all He will see is the righteousness of Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and it’s doesn't cost a single penny.

    Anyone who believes they are saved by grace after repenting (a grace) from their sins and obeying the commandments (a grace) believes in a righteousness that comes from Christ (a grace).

    Romans 5:17-18 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.”

    If YOU have to pay money, it’s no longer FREE.

    Justification (having been made perfect through faith, which without repentance and obedience isn't faith at all) is followed by Sanctification (becoming pure like Christ)

    Christ is the destination of “doing all you can do” (which is repenting from our sins and obeying the commandments) and now righteousness is for everyone who believes and obeys. Christ is the destination of “repent, obey, repent, obey” he has said "go, and sin no more.”

    Once we are justified through the faith which is faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and enduring to the end, we know we will have eternal life, we know we will be completely forgiven. By repenting and obeying we put our trust in Him and His word rather than putting our trust in ourselves. Forever trusting in his word by obeying Him, God then transforms us over time and throughout our lives, to be more and more like Him.

    E: According to your theology, that means you are never forgiven.

    GB: There you go again, telling us what we believe (and getting it wrong). Unlike you, we don't tell God who He can or cannot forgive. God is quick to forgive the penitent this is clear.

    It is possible that you are confusing human weakness and limitations with sin.

    Sin is a transgression of God's commandments. Sin is not forgetting to water the flowers or your spouses birthday those are caused by human weakness and limitations which God gives us to help us be humble.

    E: That means you are not saved.

    GB: Hello, earth to Echo!!!

    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

  93. 93 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    E: According to your beliefs, these verses all should say: “He will perfect”.

    GB: You are clearly misunderstanding what this verse CLEARLY says. Let me rephrase it for you and then MAYBE you will understand it.

    “them that are <= present indicative) sanctified", "he hath perfected for ever", "by one offering"

    In other words those that are sanctified are then perfected. Get it?

    E: In justification we are made perfect because Christ has imputed his righteousness to our account. God only justifies the UNGODLY.

    GB: In justification, through repentance and obedience, we are made perfect because Christ will impute his righteousness to our account.

    God justifies the UNGODLY who repent and obey. There fixed it for you.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God (and OBEYED Him), and it was counted unto him for righteousness (in other words His sins were forgiven).
    . . .
    5 But to him that worketh not (the law of Moses), but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (when they repent), his faith is counted for righteousness (his sins are forgiven).
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness (forgives sins) without works (of the law of Moses),
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven (because they repented), and whose sins are covered (because they repented see James 5:20).
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin (or forgives because he repented).

    Christ’s righteousness is like a royal robe. He gives us that robe to wear when we believe Him, repent of our sins and obey His commandments. If we do this then when God looks at us, all He sees is the righteousness of Christ. The Lord once said "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"; What He intended is that we are adorned with the robe of Christ’s righteousness while underneath we are penitent former sinners.

    Jesus took our sin and suffered the punishment we deserve, but he will credit to our account his perfect righteousness when we repent and obey His commandments. Then whenever God looks at us, all He will see is the righteousness of Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and it’s doesn't cost a single penny.

    Anyone who believes they are saved by grace after repenting (a grace) from their sins and obeying the commandments (a grace) believes in a righteousness that comes from Christ (a grace).

    Romans 5:17-18 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.”

    If YOU have to pay money, it’s no longer FREE.

    Justification (having been made perfect through faith, which without repentance and obedience isn't faith at all) is followed by Sanctification (becoming pure like Christ)

    Christ is the destination of “doing all you can do” (which is repenting from our sins and obeying the commandments) and now righteousness is for everyone who believes and obeys. Christ is the destination of “repent, obey, repent, obey” he has said "go, and sin no more.”

    Once we are justified through the faith which is faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and enduring to the end, we know we will have eternal life, we know we will be completely forgiven. By repenting and obeying we put our trust in Him and His word rather than putting our trust in ourselves. Forever trusting in his word by obeying Him, God then transforms us over time and throughout our lives, to be more and more like Him.

  94. 94 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    E: According to your beliefs, these verses all should say: “He will perfect”.

    GB: You are clearly misunderstanding what this verse CLEARLY says. Let me rephrase it for you and then MAYBE you will understand it.

    “them that are <= present indicative) sanctified", "he hath perfected for ever", "by one offering"

    In other words those that are sanctified are then perfected. Get it?

  95. 95 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    E: In justification we are made perfect because Christ has imputed his righteousness to our account. God only justifies the UNGODLY.

    GB: In justification, through repentance and obedience, we are made perfect because Christ will impute his righteousness to our account.

    God justifies the UNGODLY who repent and obey. There fixed it for you.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God (and OBEYED Him), and it was counted unto him for righteousness (in other words His sins were forgiven).
    . . .
    5 But to him that worketh not (the law of Moses), but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (when they repent), his faith is counted for righteousness (his sins are forgiven).
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness (forgives sins) without works (of the law of Moses),
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven (because they repented), and whose sins are covered (because they repented see James 5:20).
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin (or forgives because he repented).

    Christ’s righteousness is like a royal robe. He gives us that robe to wear when we believe Him, repent of our sins and obey His commandments. If we do this then when God looks at us, all He sees is the righteousness of Christ. The Lord once said “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow”; What He intended is that we are adorned with the robe of Christ’s righteousness while underneath we are penitent former sinners.

    Jesus took our sin and suffered the punishment we deserve, but he will credit to our account his perfect righteousness when we repent and obey His commandments. Then whenever God looks at us, all He will see is the righteousness of Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and it’s doesn’t cost a single penny.

    Anyone who believes they are saved by grace after repenting (a grace from Christ) from their sins and obeying the commandments (a grace from Christ) believes in a righteousness that comes from Christ (a grace).

    Romans 5:17-18 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.”

    If YOU have to pay money, it’s no longer FREE.

    Justification (having been made perfect through faith, which without repentance and obedience isn’t faith at all) is followed by Sanctification (becoming pure like Christ)

    Christ is the destination of “doing all you can do” (which is repenting from our sins and obeying the commandments) and now righteousness is for everyone who believes and obeys. Christ is the destination of “repent, obey, repent, obey” he has said “go, and sin no more.”

    Once we are justified through the faith which is faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and enduring to the end, we know we will have eternal life, we know we will be completely forgiven. By repenting and obeying we put our trust in Him and His word rather than putting our trust in ourselves. Forever trusting in his word by obeying Him, God then transforms us over time and throughout our lives, to be more and more like Him.

  96. 96 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    E: According to your theology, that means you are never forgiven.

    GB: There you go again, telling us what we believe (and getting it wrong). Unlike you, we don’t tell God who He can or cannot forgive. God is quick to forgive the penitent this is clear.

    It is possible that you are confusing human weakness and limitations with sin.

    Sin is a transgression of God’s commandments. Sin is not forgetting to water the flowers or your spouses birthday those are caused by human weakness and limitations which God gives us to help us be humble.

    E: That means you are not saved.

    GB: Hello, earth to Echo!!!

    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    JESUS makes it clear, first endure to the end THEN you shall be <= notice the tense) saved.

  97. 97 Brad
    June 26, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Echo,

    While I understand your desire to try to convince GB – let it go.

    Some will refuse to be convinced. Yes, GB may say the same about you, or I, and that’s fine. I’m confident facing judgment with my beliefs. While GB may say the same thing, our beliefs will obviously lead us to different outcomes. We each make our own choice.

    Your banging your head against a wall here.

  98. 98 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    GB said:
    ========

    “Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God (and OBEYED Him), and it was counted unto him for righteousness (in other words His sins were forgiven).”

    Echo:
    =====

    Not the Law of Moses. Read the verses in context. “The law” is refering to the law of righteousness. The same law that points out our sin and shows us our unrighteousness. Provide scripture that shows Romans 4:2 is speaking of the law of Moses.

    What you are doing is “adding” to God’s word. That is always a dangerous thing to do. Proverbs 30:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

    The verse says God justifies the ungodly. It DOES NOT say, God justifies those who are no longer ungodly. You have completely contradicted what God has said.

    Abraham was declared righeous BEFORE he obeyed, not AFTER he obeyed as you are saying.
    The book of James talks about this:

    James 2:21-22 “Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.”

    Abraham was declared righteous by believing God in Genesis 15:6
    Abraham offered his son Isaac on the altar many, many years later in Genesis 22:2

    GB said:
    ========

    Jesus took our sin and suffered the punishment we deserve, but he will credit to our account his perfect righteousness when we repent and obey His commandments. Then whenever God looks at us, all He will see is the righteousness of Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and it’s doesn’t cost a single penny.

    Echo:
    =====

    Any “condition” is the cost.

    A Father buys a bike for his son.
    If the son pays him back money, he bought the bike.
    If the son does chores to get the bike, he bought the bike.

    GB said:
    ========

    Christ is the destination of “doing all you can do” (which is repenting from our sins and obeying the commandments) and now righteousness is for everyone who believes and obeys. Christ is the destination of “repent, obey, repent, obey” he has said “go, and sin no more.”

    Echo:
    =====

    In John 5:1-13 Jesus used the words “go and sin no more”
    Notice the man was made WHOLE BEFORE Jesus said go and sin no more. What makes us whole? The forgiveness of ALL our sins.

    In John 8 Jesus forgives (Neither do I condemn thee) BEFORE he says: “go, and sin no more.”

  99. 99 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Brad,

    Thanks for the advice. Your probably right.

  100. 100 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Echo,

    Are you saying that Abraham couldn’t have obeyed God before Gen 15:6?

    You have convinced me that if I believe God (and act accordingly) when He says, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”, and (Rev. 22:14), “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” that it will be imputed to me for righteousness.

    By ignoring what Jesus plainly and clearly taught you are TAKING WAY FROM God’s word, LITERALLY!!!

    Rom 3:21 Clearly indicates that Paul is including the Law of Moses in his discussion in Romans and in verse 27 he describes it as the law “of works”.

    E: The verse says God justifies the ungodly. It DOES NOT say, God justifies those who are no longer ungodly.

    GB: You are giving preeminence to the words of Paul, when (your understanding of them) is in clear conflict with the words of other Apostles.

    Peter said (1 Pet. 4:18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Is there another way to reconcile this conflict without understanding that Paul was referring to former sinners?

    The Bible teaches “that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established”.
    See Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1.

    Where is your second witness?

    E: Notice the man was made WHOLE BEFORE Jesus said go and sin no more. What makes us whole? The forgiveness of ALL our sins.

    GB: The man was made whole PHYSICALLY before Jesus said . . .

    You are making unsupported assumptions that 1) the man hadn’t repented and 2) that Jesus forgave him.

    E: In John 8 Jesus forgives (Neither do I condemn thee) BEFORE he says: “go, and sin no more.”

    You are making unsupported assumptions that 1) “neither do I condemn thee” means “forgiveness” and 2) that the woman hadn’t repented.

    The fact that He didn’t condemn her to death is not the same as giving forgiveness.

    Are you ADDING to the word of God now? LOL!!!

    One thing the Bible CLEARLY teaches, God is quick to forgive the penitent.

  101. 101 Brad
    June 26, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    I know it’s tough to lay off, but sometimes it’s necessary.

    You just won’t win with GB. But you can stand before God and say you did offer the gospel, which is what you’re asked to do. The Holy Spirit still continues to work. It’s up to GB to accept that – thankfully, it’s not up to us whether he does or not!

  102. 102 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    B: The Holy Spirit still continues to work.

    GB: ABSOLUTELY!!!!

    God’s work is NOT finished!

    B: It’s up to GB to accept that

    GB: I fully and deeply accept that the Holy Spirit continues to work.

  103. 103 Echo
    June 27, 2009 at 4:33 am

    GB said:
    =======

    Are you saying that Abraham couldn’t have obeyed God before Gen 15:6?

    Echo:
    =====

    I am saying that Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he offered up Isaac on the Alter

    GB said:
    ========

    You have convinced me that if I believe God (and act accordingly) when He says, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”, and (Rev. 22:14), “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” that it will be imputed to me for righteousness.

    By ignoring what Jesus plainly and clearly taught you are TAKING WAY FROM God’s word, LITERALLY!!!

    Echo:
    =====

    His commandments are this: “believe on the one God has sent” (Jesus)

    John 6:27-29 “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
    Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    To believe on the one he has sent means to believe that in Jesus, all your sins have already been forgiven. That is how we wash our robes.

    Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes,(<-that do his commandments KJV which means believe that in Jesus our sins have all been forgiven) that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." NIV

    GB said:
    =======

    Rom 3:21 Clearly indicates that Paul is including the Law of Moses in his discussion in Romans and in verse 27 he describes it as the law “of works”.

    Echo:
    =====

    That right, the law of works is the law of righteousness. That is what I said.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: The verse says God justifies the ungodly. It DOES NOT say, God justifies those who are no longer ungodly.

    GB: You are giving preeminence to the words of Paul, when (your understanding of them) is in clear conflict with the words of other Apostles.

    Echo:
    =====

    Nothing I believe in is conflict with other scripture. Your misunderstanding of what I believe is in conflict with scripture.
    God justifies the UNGODLY. That is exactly what the verse says. That doesn't mean that God leaves us that way, but he certainly justifies us that way.

    GB said:
    =======

    Peter said (1 Pet. 4:18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Echo:
    =====

    That verse in context isn't talking about "saved" as in "salvation", it is talking about the righteous recieving their due on earth so also the wicked.
    Check out biblegateway, look at the (a)after verse 1 Peter 4:18 which refers to Prov 11:31:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=4&version=31#en-NIV-30449

    GB said:
    ========

    Is there another way to reconcile this conflict without understanding that Paul was referring to former sinners?

    The Bible teaches “that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established”.
    See Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1.

    Where is your second witness?

    Echo:
    ====

    You and I both agree that the Bible is God's word. Why do we need another witness besides God himself.

    Romans 4:5 "However, to the man who does not work but trusts GOD WHO JUSTIFIES THE WICKED, his faith is credited as righteousness."

    Romans 5:6 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

    1 Timothy 1:15 "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world TO SAVE SINNERS-OF WHOM I AM THE WORST."

    Romans 5:8-9 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us. Since WE NOW HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

    Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were God's ENEMIES, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son…"

    GB said:
    =======

    E: Notice the man was made WHOLE BEFORE Jesus said go and sin no more. What makes us whole? The forgiveness of ALL our sins.

    GB: The man was made whole PHYSICALLY before Jesus said . . .

    Echo:
    =====

    Jesus taught many spiritual truth's through physical events such as this one. For example, Jesus used the example of a man that was physically blind to explain the truth that people are spiritually blind etc.
    The only thing that makes us spiritually whole is forgiveness.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: In John 8 Jesus forgives (Neither do I condemn thee) BEFORE he says: “go, and sin no more.”

    You are making unsupported assumptions that 1) “neither do I condemn thee” means “forgiveness” and 2) that the woman hadn’t repented.

    Echo:
    =====

    Actually you are the one making unsupported assumptions that 1) "neither do I condemn thee” doesn't mean “forgiveness” and 2)that the woman repented

    You are the one who believes that "repent" includes overcoming sin! Jesus said: "go now and leave your life of sin". So according to your definition, she didn't repent yet!

    Where there is unforgiven sin, there we have condemnation:

    Romans 5:16 "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,…"

    Jesus said: "neither do I condemn you" meaning her sin was forgiven.

    GB said:
    =======

    One thing the Bible CLEARLY teaches, God is quick to forgive the penitent.

    Echo:
    ====

    God has already forgiven the penitent and the unpenitant, he has forgiven the entire world, believer and unbeliever alike:

    Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were God's ENEMIES, we were RECONCILED to him through the death of his Son…"

    2 Corinthians 5:19 "that God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself in Christ, NOT COUNTING MENS SINS AGAINST THEM."

    Luke 23:34 "Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots."

  104. 104 Echo
    June 27, 2009 at 5:14 am

    GB said:
    ======

    Are you saying that Abraham couldn’t have obeyed God before Gen 15:6?

    Echo:
    ====

    I am saying that Abraham was declared righteous before he offered up Isaac on the alter.

    GB said:
    ======

    You have convinced me that if I believe God (and act accordingly) when He says, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”, and (Rev. 22:14), “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” that it will be imputed to me for righteousness.
    By ignoring what Jesus plainly and clearly taught you are TAKING WAY FROM God’s word, LITERALLY!!!

    Echo:
    ====

    Jesus plainly and clearly taught what the commandments are (the food that endures to eternal life):

    John 6:27-29 “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
    Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
    Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    To believe that Jesus has given you his robe of righteousness.

    GB said:
    ======

    Rom 3:21 Clearly indicates that Paul is including the Law of Moses in his discussion in Romans and in verse 27 he describes it as the law “of works”.

    Echo:
    ====

    That is my point.

    GB said:
    ======

    E: The verse says God justifies the ungodly. It DOES NOT say, God justifies those who are no longer ungodly.
    GB: You are giving preeminence to the words of Paul, when (your understanding of them) is in clear conflict with the words of other Apostles.

    Echo:
    ====

    My understanding is in complete agreement with the words of other Apostles, it is your misunderstanding of what I believe that is causing all the conflict for you.

    GB said:
    ======

    Peter said (1 Pet. 4:18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Echo:
    ====

    In context, the scripture is speaking of the righteous man receiving his due on earth as well as the ungodly. See the biblegateway link below, notice the (a) footnote beside that verse is referring to Proverbs 11:31

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:18&version=31

    GB said:
    ======

    Is there another way to reconcile this conflict without understanding that Paul was referring to former sinners?
    The Bible teaches “that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established”.
    See Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1.

    Echo:
    ====

    God most definitely justified the ungodly. However once we are justified, he doesn’t leave us that way.

    Romans 5:6 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY.”

    Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who JUSTIFIES THE WICKED, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

    1 Timothy 1:15 “Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS—OF WHOM I AM THE WORST.”

    Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were God’s ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO HIM through the death of his Son”

    GB said:
    ======
    E: Notice the man was made WHOLE BEFORE Jesus said go and sin no more. What makes us whole? The forgiveness of ALL our sins.
    GB: The man was made whole PHYSICALLY before Jesus said . . .

    Echo:
    ====

    Jesus often used physical situations to teach a spiritual truth. For example Jesus used a man’s physical blindness to teach that people are spiritually blind and cannot see the truth.

    In the same way, when all of our sins are forgiven, we are spiritually whole.

    GB said:
    ======

    You are making unsupported assumptions that 1) “neither do I condemn thee” means “forgiveness” and 2) that the woman hadn’t repented.

    Echo:
    ====

    You are the one making unsupported assumptions that 1) “neither do I condemn thee” doesn’t means “forgiveness” and 2) that the woman did repent.

    You believe repentance includes overcoming sin. Jesus said to the woman: “go and sin no more”, so even according to your beliefs, she didn’t repent yet.

    Unforgiven sin brings condemnation. Sin that is forgiven doesn’t:

    Romans 5:16 “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation”

    Jesus said to the woman: “Neither do I condemn you” therefore she was forgiven.

    GB said:
    ======

    One thing the Bible CLEARLY teaches, God is quick to forgive the penitent.

    Echo:
    ====

    One thing the Bible CLEARLY teaches, God has already forgiven the entire world. The penitent and the impenitent. The Believer and the non believer:

    Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son”

    2 Corinthians 5:19 “that God was reconciling the WORLD to himself in Christ, NOT COUNTING MEN’S SINS AGAINST THEM.”

    Luke 23:34 “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”

  105. 105 Echo
    June 27, 2009 at 5:39 am

    GB SAID:
    ========

    Rom 3:21 Clearly indicates that Paul is including the Law of Moses in his discussion in Romans and in verse 27 he describes it as the law “of works”.

    Echo:
    =====

    Romans 3:28 says: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”

    In other words, it says: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law of works” This is faith alone! We are justifed by faith alone! For it is the ungodly, the wicked, the sinner, the enemies of God who are justified! (see the verses above again)

    The ungodly,wicked, sinner, enemy of God is justified by faith alone. The ungodly, wicked, sinner, enemy of God who does NOT “work” ( as in trust in the law of works) for salvation by thinking they are “conditions” to eternal life but insteads trusts in Jesus who justifies the wicked, that man is credited with righteousness!

    Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does NOT WORK but trusts God who JUSTIFIES THE WICKED, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

  106. 106 GB
    June 29, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    E: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    GB: That includes believing all that He taught. Jesus taught repentance and obedience plainly and clearly. Ignore that fact at your own peril.

    E: That is my point.

    GB: So you agree that the law of Moses is the law of works.

    E: My understanding is in complete agreement with the words of other Apostles, it is your misunderstanding of what I believe that is causing all the conflict for you.

    GB: Really? And you didn’t provide a single scripture to support this claim, why? Could it be that it is an unsupportable statement? I think so.

    I have shown you where your understanding of this is in conflicts with what Peter said.

    And here is where Paul disagrees with your understanding of it.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    1) That is IN ROMANS!!!!

    2) That is BEFORE the verse you are quoting and should be used as a foundation in understanding it.

    So I have established that your understanding conflicts with the words of Paul and Peter. Where is your second witness?

    You don’t have a second witness, you only have your misunderstood words of Paul.

    And here is another!
    Ps. 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
    6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

    I am up to three witnesses, still waiting for your second.

    E: Jesus often used physical situations to teach a spiritual truth. For example Jesus used a man’s physical blindness to teach that people are spiritually blind and cannot see the truth.

    In the same way, when all of our sins are forgiven, we are spiritually whole.

    GB: True, but that doesn’t refute my argument.

    E: You believe repentance includes overcoming sin. Jesus said to the woman: “go and sin no more”, so even according to your beliefs, she didn’t repent yet.

    GB: There you go again, telling me what I believe and getting it wrong. Again, your logic is faulty (no surprise there). The admonition to “sin no more” doesn’t require that she had NOT repented from her adultery.

    E: Jesus said to the woman: “Neither do I condemn you” therefore she was forgiven.

    GB: Still faulty logic.

    E: God has already forgiven the entire world.

    GB: What? no verse to show this? Reconciling the world to God is not the same as forgiving the entire world.

    Now IF your statement is true (which it isn’t), THEN all are forgiven and all will be saved (which they are not), including the people like Hitler. Now if Hitler is going to be in YOUR heaven then I don’t want to be there.

    E: Luke 23:34 “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”

    GB: So he was forgiving only those soldiers for dividing up his clothes, and this is supposed to support your assumption that ALL sinners are forgiven?

    E: The ungodly,wicked, sinner, enemy of God is justified by faith alone.

    GB: You know E, the ONLY verse in the Bible that has both words “faith” and “alone” is James 2:17

    Even Paul teaches that Grace is given to the obedient.
    Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

  107. 107 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 1:11 am

    GB said:
    ========

    E: My understanding is in complete agreement with the words of other Apostles, it is your misunderstanding of what I believe that is causing all the conflict for you.

    GB: Really? And you didn’t provide a single scripture to support this claim, why? Could it be that it is an unsupportable statement? I think so.

    Echo:
    =====

    I provided 4 scripture verses. You have sinned against the 8th commandment: “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor”

    GB, you preach obedience to ALL the commandments and all I see is your disobedience to ALL the commandments.

    You preach that you are saved by grace after all you can do, but you aren’t doing all you can do.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: God has already forgiven the entire world.

    GB: What? no verse to show this? Reconciling the world to God is not the same as forgiving the entire world.

    Now IF your statement is true (which it isn’t), THEN all are forgiven and all will be saved (which they are not), including the people like Hitler. Now if Hitler is going to be in YOUR heaven then I don’t want to be there.

    Echo:
    ====

    Again, you said: “what? no verse to show this?” is another sin against the 8th commandment.
    I gave a verse.

    If you believe you are saved by obedience to ALL of the commandments, why aren’t you obeying ALL the commandments?
    If you believe you are saved by grace after all you can do, why aren’t you doing all you can do?

  108. 108 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 6:29 am

    What is my point in pointing out all your sins? My point is this:

    Eternal life, according to LDS teachings, has “conditions” that MUST be met and you have already failed to meet those conditions plus you have NOT done all you can do. According to the BOM, you are saved by grace after all you can do. But you havn’t done all you can do therefore you have already forfeited that grace because you have crossed over the line! You have already failed to meet the conditions.

    Jesus taught plainly and very clearly that there are ONLY TWO places that we can end up when we die. Those on his right gained eternal life and those on his left went to everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire with Satan and his demons. Those are the ONLY TWO options.

    Mathew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”

    Mathew 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

    You have no hope left believing in the teachings you believe in because you have already failed to do all you can do and have failed to obey ALL of the commandments. Those who fail to meet ALL the conditions reap only everlasting fire with Satan and his demons. I don’t want to see you face that destiny.

    Your only hope is faith alone in Jesus alone but because you seem so unwilling to even just listen, it really makes continued discussion with you pointless. You need to first come to the end of yourself by realizing that you cannot meet the conditions you believe in before you will have ears that will hear and eyes that will see. Until then, there is no point in discussing eternal life through faith alone with you.

    May God Bless you and keep you!

  109. 109 Brad
    June 30, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Echo, again, buddy, you’re talking to a brick wall. Remember, not all will be saved. Some have hardened their hearts, and God allows them to remain that way, to their peril.

    You’ve done what God has asked – to tell the gospel. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit, and to GB to respond to what you’ve said. If he doesn’t believe, that is his choice, for which he will be responsible.

    At some point, it’s best to move on, don’t you think?

  110. 110 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    >>E: My understanding is in complete agreement with the words of other Apostles, it is your misunderstanding of what I believe that is causing all the conflict for you.

    >>GB: Really? And you didn’t provide a single scripture to support this claim, why? Could it be that it is an unsupportable statement? I think so.

    E: I provided 4 scripture verses. You have sinned against the 8th commandment: “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor”

    GB: Earth to Echo!!!

    Clue!!! The 4 scripture verses you provided were ALL written by PAUL!!!!

    WHERE are the words of ANOTHER Apostle that you claim is in agreement with your misunderstanding of Paul?

    WHERE is your second witness?

    You didn’t provide a single scripture from another Apostle to support this claim, why? Could it be that there isn’t one? I think so.

    So before you falsely accuse me of bearing false testimony you should remove the beam from your own eye so you can see better.

    Again, I see you can’t address my points, but are left to personal attacks. Do you really think that is very convincing?

  111. 111 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    GB said:

    “WHERE is your second witness?”

    Echo:

    Luke 18:13-14 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    I am taking Brad’s advice and leaving this discussion.

  112. 112 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Echo,

    Thank you for that verse! Unfortunately it supports my position and refutes yours.

    Jesus was comparing the proud and arrogant (ungodly) with the meek and penitent (godly). Truly the meek and penitent are justified. The fact that Jesus does NOT justify the proud and arrogant (ungodly) totally refutes your position.

    To support your position, Jesus would have said that BOTH men were justified. The fact that He withheld justification from the “ungodly” totally blows your position away. :-)

  113. 113 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    Brad: The rest is up to the Holy Spirit, and to GB to respond to what you’ve said.

    GB: So, what you are saying is that I have to do something first. Thank you for agreeing with my theology but, doesn’t that contradict with your theology?

    I have responded to the Holy Spirit. Your problem is that following the Holy Spirit leads me to a different place than Echo is trying to lead me.

    B: If he doesn’t believe, that is his choice, for which he will be responsible.

    GB: So, what you are saying is that I have a choice in the matter. Thank you for agreeing with my theology but, doesn’t that contradict with your own theology?

    I, unlike you guys, gladly take responsibility for my actions and salvation. Now don’t get your panties in a bunch and claim that I think I can save myself, because I don’t.

    I find it interesting that you would place upon me the responsibility for my salvation but refuse to take any responsibility for your own salvation.

    You guys seem to think that flattering Jesus by telling everyone that He is solely responsible for your salvation will somehow get Him to save you with no effort of your own. Good luck with that.

  114. 114 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 10:54 pm

    GB said:
    =======

    “You guys seem to think that flattering Jesus by telling everyone that He is solely responsible for your salvation will somehow get Him to save you WITH NO EFFORT OF YOUR OWN. Good luck with that.”

    Echo:
    =====

    When are you going to begin making that effort?

  115. 115 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    LOL!!!

    When are you going to stop abusing your spouse? ;-)

  116. 116 Brad
    July 1, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Echo, I’m telling you, people like GB THRIVE on the argument, and having the last word. Your best bet is to just stop conversation with him altogether, let him have his last word, and never respond. Just ignore him, it’s fruitless to continue to talk with him, clearly, so you’d only be wasting your time. He clearly doesn’t believe the same, which is unfortunate, but thankfully, we’re not responsible for that.

    You do what you want, I’m just saying, the best course of action is just to quit talking, since he looks forward to the argument.

  117. 117 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Brad, My head says your right but my heart…

    GB’s zeal is very admirable to me. GB is someone I would be willing to be freinds with! But your right, there comes a time, we must let them go.


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