24
Jun
09

Repaying a Forgiven Debt?

      The LDS manual, Gospel Principles, makes the following statement.  “Peace cones only through forgiveness.  But forgiveness has a high price.  Elder Kimball said:  ‘To every forgiveness there is a condition. . .The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or grater than the sin.  There must be a broken heart and a contrite spirit.”  (p. 252)

      One of the problems I and many others have with Mormonism is that it talks about repaying a debt that the Bible describes as having been forgiven.  I would like to expand on that a little bit more.  Where is the idea of forgiveness and repayment ever combined?  The two ideas just don’t fit together.

      I just got done googling “debt forgiven”.  The first sites listed all dealt with either mortgage or credit cards debt being forgiven.  I copied just a couple of paragraphs from one site.  It said:

     “All may be forgiven when a debtor reduces the amount you owe, but that doesn’t mean you’ve gotten a free ride.  Your windfall may be taxable. . .

     Here’s how it works.  You negotiate with your credit card company to get your bill reduced from $10,000 to $5,000.  You only have to pay Visa $5,000, but the Internal Revenue Service is likely to tax you on the $5,000 you didn’t have to pay back.  That amount is known as discharge of indebtedness, or DOI, income.

     That’s right.  A debt forgiven won’t be forgotten by the IRS.  The agency considers it earned or taxable income.”

     Notice how it is described as a windfall.  No longer does the person have to pay Visa the $5.000.  But what I found so interesting is that the IRS sees that forgiven debt as taxable income!  They don’t do that with loans that need to be repaid.  They view it as if Visa actually gave the person the $5,000.

     That is what the word forgiven means.  When I tell my grown son I forgive the loan he had with me, he will naturally think that he doesn’t need to repay me.  In fact, if in the next month he sends me a payment, I will be puzzled and wonder if he really understood me.  So I talk to him and make it clear that I had forgiven the loan.  Then the next month another payment arrives.  No longer am I puzzled.  Then I will be irritated.  Why isn’t he accepting my gift to him?  Doesn’t he believe that I was serious?

     When I forgive somebody his debt to me, I do not remain his creditor.  When God forgives our debt of sin, he does not remain our creditor.  If I continue to try and pay my debt to him, I irritate him and call his word into question.  The proper response to a gift is graciously and gratefully accepting it.

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165 Responses to “Repaying a Forgiven Debt?”


  1. 1 Echo
    June 24, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Mark said:

    “The LDS manual, Gospel Principles, makes the following statement. “Peace cones only through forgiveness. But forgiveness has a high price. Elder Kimball said: ‘To every forgiveness there is a condition. . .The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or grater than the sin. There must be a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” (p. 252)”

    Echo:

    It is so awesome that we always have certainty of God’s forgiveness. That Peace never leaves unless we ourselves let it go. Even through the toughest trials of life, or even when I am struggling with some sin, that peace never leaves.

    Forgivess does have a high price. Jesus had to suffer and be crucified and that is a high price for one who was without sin. Just as the song goes: “I will never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross…”

    Jesus fulfilled “every condition” in our behalf, leaving us UNconditionally forgiven!

    Amazing Grace how sweet the sound,
    that saved a wretch like me
    I once was lost but now I am found
    was BLIND but now I see!!

  2. 2 GB
    June 24, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    M: One of the problems I and many others have with Mormonism is that it talks about repaying a debt . . .

    GB: Nice STRAWMAN!!! Nothing in that quote even suggest “repaying”.

    You are starting with a false premise.

    Forgiveness comes through REPENTANCE!!! Need I quote the numerous verse that say so?

  3. 3 markcares
    June 24, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    GB:
    Mormonism does teach that we have to repay the debt. That’s the concept behind the quote. If you want another one, consider the following dialogue between Jesus mediator, benefactor) and us (debtor). This is also from Gospel Principles:
    “The mediator turned then to the debtor, ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’
    “Oh yes, yes, cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.”
    ‘then, said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be asy, bit it will be possib le. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

  4. 4 GB
    June 24, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    M: Mormonism does teach that we have to repay the debt.

    GB: There you go again!! Trying to tell us what we believe. The STORY you quote is told to help people understand the concepts of justice, mercy and love. Your using it OUT OF CONTEXT as support for your STRAWMAN is inappropriate.

    Why don’t you provide some verses (LDS scripture) to support your strawman? Could it be that there aren’t any?

  5. 5 Echo
    June 24, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Mormonism teaches: “you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms”

    ( link below from http://www.lds.org)

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=88d8db268c51c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    What are the terms from the link? :

    “He asks us to follow certain “terms,” or rules—to repent and keep the commandments.”

  6. 6 jm
    June 26, 2009 at 8:14 am

    GB: Here is one for you.

    Why don’t you provide some verses (LDS scripture) to support your strawman? Could it be that there aren’t any?

    Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3

    “The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

    “ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

    “ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way.

  7. 7 faithoffathers
    June 26, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Mark,

    A rather clumsy use of the credit card scenerio as an analogy of LDS doctrine.

    I am truly stunned how dead this horse is, yet evangelicals and critics cannot wrap their brains around what is really not that perplexing a doctrine.

    We don’t pay the debt for our sins. Nowhere does the LDS scripture or leadership claim such a thing. Christ paid that debt and fulfills that role. I suppose you could infer that there is a debt owed to Christ for what He has done to pay for our sins. But that debt is simply the set of conditions He has set for forgiveness- IT IS NOT PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS.

    You believe in one set of conditions for receiving forgiveness of sin. We believe in a different set of conditions. Our set is at least as biblical as yours. Why the determination to prove we are somehow against Christ or that we deny Him?

    Your claim that we believe we must pay for our own sins really does approach dishonesty, my friend.

    keep the faith

    fof

  8. 8 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    jm,

    Here is one for you. Quoting the same story from a different (non-scriptural) source doesn’t change a thing.

    FOF,
    Well said!!! (as usual)

  9. 9 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    FOF said:

    “We don’t pay the debt for our sins. Nowhere does the LDS scripture or leadership claim such a thing. Christ paid that debt and fulfills that role. I suppose you could infer that there is a debt owed to Christ for what He has done to pay for our sins. But that debt is simply the set of conditions He has set for forgiveness- IT IS NOT PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS.”

    Echo:

    Can you explain this better?

    When I think of conditions being set for forgiveness, I think of it being a payment for sins, or a payment for forgiveness. Whenever something costs something, it is a purchase or personal achievement and not a gift.

    If a Father buys a bike for the child and gives it to him, it is a gift.

    If a Father buys a bike for his child and lays out conditions that must be met before the child is to recieve that bike, that child earned that bike by meeting those conditions. He has paid for the bike by meeting the conditions. The bike then becomes a reward for obedience rather than a gift.

  10. 10 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    E: If a Father buys a bike for his child and lays out conditions that must be met before the child is to recieve that bike, that child earned that bike by meeting those conditions. He has paid for the bike by meeting the conditions. The bike then becomes a reward for obedience rather than a gift.

    GB: Not necessarily! If the bike cost more than the child could EVER earn, then regardless of the conditions, the difference between the conditions and the UN-EARNABLE cost of the bike, is still a gift.

    In our case, the Lord has said this.

    D&C 19:13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received . . . in my name;
    14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
    15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
    16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
    17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
    18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
    19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
    20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

    Repenting from our sins is VERY SMALL and simple condition to meet, in comparison to the GIFT that is given to the penitent.

    Need I repeatedly post the NUMEROUS Bible verses that teach us that REPENTANCE brings FORGIVENESS?

  11. 11 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    GB said:
    ========

    GB: Not necessarily! If the bike cost more than the child could EVER earn, then regardless of the conditions, the difference between the conditions and the UN-EARNABLE cost of the bike, is still a gift.

    Echo:
    =====

    I understand what you are saying, but lets focus on the portion that was earned even though we will include the unearned portion.

    A Father buys a bike for $200.00
    The father lays down the condition that the son doesn’t get the bike unless he pays $100.00

    The son has earned 100% of that bike. Why? Because the price to be PAID BY THE SON was $100.00 even though the Father paid $200.00 for it. The $200.00 applied to the Father ONLY and not to the son.
    Certainly the Father was generous only charging the son 1/2 the price he himself paid but the son still earned the bike 100%

    But that scenario isn’t even the impression I get from GB. According to GB, the price the father is asking from his son is $200.00 and not $100.00….For GB said “Obey ALL of the commandments” GB didn’t say: “obey 1/2 of the commandments”

  12. June 26, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    GB: “Need I repeatedly post the NUMEROUS Bible verses that teach us that REPENTANCE brings FORGIVENESS?”

    Faith always includes repentance, but repentance does not necessarily include faith. Judas repented. He was very sorry, and would never betray Jesus again. But because he lacked faith in Christ, he was damned to hell eternally. (John 17:12).

    Peter also repented, but because Christ had prayed for him he had faith. (Luke 22:32). Christ saved Peter, but not because he repented.

  13. 13 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    E: “but the son still earned the bike 100%”

    GB: Not even close. The son didn’t earn the bike. And any attempt to make it appear that I am saying that he did is a deception.

    Like FOF, I am stunned that you guys can’t (or won’t) wrap your brains around what is really not that perplexing a doctrine.

    Here is a clue for you. Understanding this doctrine does NOT require you to believe it.

    I understand perfectly your doctrine of grace. I just don’t believe it because you are neglecting major portions of the Bible and the clear and plain teaching of Jesus. But I also believe in letting you believe what ever you want. I wouldn’t care if you wanted to worship some being that was some unknowable gaseous cloud of immaterial essence that fills the universe. But to continually MISREPRESENT and twist what we believe and say is stunning.

  14. 14 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Rick: Faith always includes repentance.

    GB: Thank you for that admission that faith is not alone, but includes repentance.

    Did Judas really repent, or was he just filled with the sorrow of the damned?

    New International Version (©1984)
    he was seized with remorse

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    he felt remorse

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    regretted what had happened

    GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    regretted what had happened

    Bible in Basic English
    in his regret

    Darby Bible Translation
    filled with remorse

    Weymouth New Testament
    smitten with remorse

    World English Bible
    felt remorse

    R: Peter also repented, but because Christ had prayed for him he had faith. (Luke 22:32). Christ saved Peter, but not because he repented.

    GB: Wow, Jesus prayed for Peter, Peter repented, Peter was saved, and that is supposed to convince me that repentance doesn’t lead to salvation? I am speechless.

  15. 15 Echo
    June 26, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    GB said:
    =======

    E: “but the son still earned the bike 100%”

    GB: Not even close. The son didn’t earn the bike. And any attempt to make it appear that I am saying that he did is a deception.

    Echo:
    =====

    Your misunderstanding me. I am not making you appear to say that the son earned the bike 100%.
    I am showing you how I see your beliefs and applying it to a real life situation in order to get you to see something your not yet seeing.

    If the Father tells the son that the cost of the bike is $100.00 even though the Father paid $200.00, then the cost to the son is $100.00. The son pays the full price that the father charges. The son has earned that bike 100%.

    GB said:
    =======

    I understand perfectly your doctrine of grace. I just don’t believe it because you are neglecting major portions of the Bible and the clear and plain teaching of Jesus.

    Echo:
    =====

    If you perfectly understood our doctrine of grace, you wouldn’t say we are neglecting major portions of the Bible and the clear and plain teaching of Jesus. So you still have alot to learn. Hang in there!

    GB said:
    =======

    But I also believe in letting you believe what ever you want. I wouldn’t care if you wanted to worship some being that was some unknowable gaseous cloud of immaterial essence that fills the universe.
    Echo:
    =====

    That’s a sign that you do not have saving faith.

    GB said:
    =======

    But to continually MISREPRESENT and twist what we believe and say is stunning.

    Echo:
    =====

    We aren’t misrepresenting your beliefs, we are taking your beliefs and then trying to show you the conclusions WE reach because of them. Conclusions that you are not seeing.

  16. 16 GB
    June 26, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    E: The son has earned that bike 100%.

    GB: Not even close. The son didn’t earn the bike. And any attempt to make it appear that he did is a deception. The Father CLEARLY and PLAINLY tells us that eternal life is a GIFT!!!!

    D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which GIFT is the GREATEST OF ALL THE GIFTS OF GOD.

    For you to say “If the Father tells the son that the cost of the bike is $100.00” is a BLATANT DECEPTIVE DISTORTION of the analogy.

    To say this is a “truth in love” approach is pure clap trap!!!

    E: If you perfectly understood our doctrine of grace, you wouldn’t say we are neglecting major portions of the Bible and the clear and plain teaching of Jesus.

    GB: Why not? It is TRUE!!!! As I have shown time and time again!!!! Making a bald assertion won’t change that fact.

    E: We aren’t misrepresenting your beliefs . . .

    GB: See above for proof of the falsity of this statement.

  17. 17 Echo
    June 27, 2009 at 3:23 am

    GB said:
    =======

    E: The son has earned that bike 100%.

    GB: Not even close. The son didn’t earn the bike. And any attempt to make it appear that he did is a deception. The Father CLEARLY and PLAINLY tells us that eternal life is a GIFT!!!!

    Echo:
    =====

    GB, I understand that you believe eternal life is a gift. But that’s my point, if there are “conditions”, then it is no longer a free gift. The conditions are the payment, that is very clear in the bike story. Where there are conditions, it is no longer a free gift because there is a cost. Have you considered whether the teachings that you believe in are actually the teachings that are decieving you?

    GB said:
    =======

    For you to say “If the Father tells the son that the cost of the bike is $100.00″ is a BLATANT DECEPTIVE DISTORTION of the analogy.

    Echo:
    =====

    It isn’t a “deceptive distortion” at all. The $100.00 simply represents “conditions” that must be met that are less than the Father paid.

    GB said:
    ========

    To say this is a “truth in love” approach is pure clap trap!!!

    Echo:
    =====

    Trying to get someone to see something they aren’t seeing is a very loving thing to do, especially if we think they are caught up in deception. That’s what people who care about each other do. They speak the TRUTH in LOVE for people.

    GB said:
    ========

    E: If you perfectly understood our doctrine of grace, you wouldn’t say we are neglecting major portions of the Bible and the clear and plain teaching of Jesus.

    GB: Why not? It is TRUE!!!! As I have shown time and time again!!!! Making a bald assertion won’t change that fact.

    Echo:
    =====

    It’s not true my freind. It’s just that you aren’t understanding what we believe just yet. That is what is causing all your confusion. Hang in there!

    GB said:
    =======

    E: We aren’t misrepresenting your beliefs . . .

    GB: See above for proof of the falsity of this statement.

    Echo:
    =====

    Your beliefs are that there are conditions to gaining eternal life. I showed that belief by using the bike analogy. The $100.00 simply represents “conditions” that must be met that are less than the Father paid.

    The rest of the conclusions of that analogy are what “I” believe about your teachings. That is much different than misrepresenting your beliefs. I am simply trying to show you something I see in your teachings that you don’t see.

  18. 18 jm
    June 27, 2009 at 6:33 am

    Gb,

    You wrote; Quoting the same story from a different (non-scriptural) source doesn’t change a thing. Here is the definition of scriptural.

    : scrip·tur·al
    Pronunciation: \ˈskrip(t)-sh(ə-)rəl\
    Function: adjective
    Date: 1641
    : of, relating to, contained in, or according to a sacred writing ; especially : biblical

    So what you are saying is your General Authorities writing’s are not sacred. That story came from the LDS web site. By searching repay debt you get, Lesson 9: Justice and Mercy, Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3.

  19. 19 GB
    June 29, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    E: I understand that you believe eternal life is a gift.

    GB: Then for you to try to represent it as anything other than a gift is deception.

    E: Where there are conditions, it is no longer a free gift because there is a cost.

    GB: That is a very dumb statement. The numbers you are using are misrepresentive of the real situation.

    A more realistic cost of the bike would be $1000 Trillion, because no matter how hard and how long the son works he can never earn the bike.

    So now if the father requires the son to give the father $1 for the bike, did the son earn the bike?

    No!!!!

    Here is where your argument is hypocritical. Even you believe that the recipient of salvation has to DO something. So by YOUR statement “Where there are conditions, it is no longer a free gift because there is a cost”, means that EVEN you believe that it isn’t FREE, because the recipient has to DO something to get salvation.

    By your beliefs, to receive salvation one has to meet the condition of accepting that salvation. By DOING so the recipient has PAID the price and EARNED salvation by meeting the conditions.

    It is nice to know that you consider my efforts to see the hypocritical nature of your arguments as “truth in love”. The difference is that I am using the truth and not falsehoods.

    And your continual denial doesn’t change the fact that I have shown numerous scriptures (actual words of JESUS) that clearly and plainly conflict with your doctrine.

    I do understand your doctrine, I just don’t buy it because that isn’t what Jesus plainly and clearly taught.

    E: Your beliefs are that there are conditions to gaining eternal life.

    GB: Conditions that are set by God Himself. These conditions are enumerated by Jesus in the Bible. Now if you have a problem with the conditions that God has set, feel free to take it up with Him. And if you want to say that by meeting the conditions set by God we “earn” salvation, then go ahead and do so. That still doesn’t change the fact that eternal life is a gift from God.

    E: I am simply trying to show you something I see in your teachings that you don’t see.

    GB: And you are not seeing the hypocrisy of your argument. I will repeat it again in hopes that you can see it.

    By your beliefs, to receive salvation one has to meet the condition of accepting that salvation. By DOING so the recipient has PAID the price and EARNED salvation by meeting the conditions.

    Can you see it?

  20. 20 GB
    June 29, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    jm: So what you are saying is your General Authorities writing’s are not sacred.

    GB: Until and unless they are canonized, they are not scripture.

    And like I said, that analogy is to teach the concepts of justice, mercy and love. To use it out of context is inappropriate.

  21. 21 jm
    June 29, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Gb,

    You wrote; Quoting the same story from a different (non-scriptural) source doesn’t change a thing.

    And GB: Until and unless they are canonized, they are not scripture.

    So you are saying that the Lesson 9: Justice and Mercy, Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 is not canonized scripture. I just don’t see the Aaronic Priesthood Manual not being canonized. It says ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way’ . If you are a debtor, you have to work to repay your debt. How is this out of context. Your still a Debtor.

  22. 22 GB
    June 29, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    jm: So you are saying that the Lesson 9: Justice and Mercy, Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 is not canonized scripture.

    GB: That is correct. And even if it was, taking it out of context is inappropriate.

    jm: I just don’t see the Aaronic Priesthood Manual not being canonized.

    GB: So? What you do or don’t see is irrelevant to what is and isn’t canonized in the LDS church.

    jm: It says ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way’ .

    GB: Yes, that is what it says and it doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it won’t change into something it isn’t.

    jm: If you are a debtor, you have to work to repay your debt.

    GB: True, but that doesn’t change the fact that the intent of this analogy is to teach the concepts of justice, mercy and love.

    jm: How is this out of context.

    GB: Because, this analogy is to teach the concepts of justice, mercy and love. As with ALL analogies, they don’t perfectly reflect all other aspects of the truth. They are ALWAYS limited in scope. To go beyond the intended scope and meaning is inappropriate.

    jm: Your still a Debtor.

    GB: And so are you. We can NEVER repay Jesus for our salvation even if He expected us to which He doesn’t. We will ALWAYS be in debt to Him. To repay Him is BEYOND our capability.

    However, God Himself puts conditions upon our reception of eternal life. They are clearly enumerated in the Bible to those who have eyes to see.

  23. 23 faithoffathers
    June 29, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    Question to those arguing that all one has to do to be forgiven is believe that he or she is saved by the blood of Christ:

    A young man in a mask enters a convenience store with a gun and robs the store of $1,500 and beats the clerk badly in the process. Three months later, the criminal is converted to Christ. Here’s the question- can he be forgiven of his great crime without doing his best to make restitution to the clerk and store? Can he simply believe in Christ and that Christ saved him from his sins? Or does Christ require something more?

    fof

  24. 24 RLO
    June 29, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    Can the young man be forgiven by the clerk without doing his best to make restitution? Maybe, and maybe not. I don’t know. I would have to know the heart of the clerk. Can the young man be forgiven by the state without making restitution? Unlikely, I would think. Can the young man be forgiven by Christ without doing his best to make restitution. Yes. “Doing his best” was never a condition of his being converted and forgiven in the first place. As we know from the second chapter of Ephesians, “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” Ephesians 2:4-5. “…Even when we were dead in sins…” And because the young man has been converted and forgiven by Christ, he will, out of gratitude for this free and undeserved gift of conversion and forgiveness, desire to make restitution. Restitution (which may or may no longer even be possible in this case) is not a requirement for Christ’s forgiveness and salvation, but repentance, and contrition, and the young man’s desire to make restitution will be a fruit of Christ’s forgiveness and salvation. Yes, even repentance and contrition are gifts. Thank you for your question. I think it was a very good one. One that many people of various faiths struggle with.

  25. 25 ADB
    June 29, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    FOF,

    Sure–he’s already been forgiven. Once Heavenly Father works the faith in his heart to believe it, then he has the assurance that he will live with Heavenly Father forever. No conditions or strings attached whatsoever.

    My guess is that he would then naturally want to be reconciled to the clerk as well (that’s a desire Heavenly Father works in converted hearts), but it wouldn’t be a requirement. One can hardly imagine Heavenly Father’s promise (i.e., all who believe that Jesus has forgiven their every sin will live with him forever) not having a life-changing impact on a person.

    Furthermore, if his forgiveness were dependent upon his “doing his best to make restitution,” I’d like to know how one would be able to determine what his “best” would be … is paying back the $1500 enough? Would he need to pay interest? How much? Would he need to pay the man’s hospital bills? Would he need to compensate for mental anguish caused by the whole thing?

    “Doing one’s best” is the ultimate deception of the devil, because it (falsely) leads man to a certain comfort level of “well, I’ve done what I think is best” and I’ll just leave the rest up to God. The problem: God isn’t content with one’s best. He’s only content with perfection. Outer darkness awaits EVERYONE who is not perfect right now.

  26. June 29, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    Life itself is a pure gift. The dead are dead. The living live. Conditions cannot be placed upon the dead to live because the dead are dead. They can do nothing to earn or pay for anything. Thus this statement is nonsensical: “God Himself puts conditions upon our reception of eternal life.”

    faithoffathers,

    First, those who are in Christ will do their best to pay the clerk back because they are thankful for the forgiveness (and new life) they have already received by grace alone. They live because they are alive.

    Second, your question is flawed because it states, “all one has to do to be forgiven is believe …” True faith is not a work we do, but rather it is the gift of God. It is the way in which we receive God’s forgiveness, it is not a condition through which we earn forgiveness. The spiritually dead do not trust God, nor can they. However, the spiritually living do trust God, and live only through their faith.

    … you have been saved, through faith—and this [faith is] not from yourselves, it is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8]

    If we are dead, then why does Jesus tell us to believe and repent? For the same reason Jesus told Lazarus to come out of the grave. For the same reason Jesus said, “Let there be light.” Because God’s word is powerful and effective and is able to raise the spiritually dead.

    Those who preach works righteousness to the dead expect the dead to help raise themselves, and the results are predictable.

  27. 27 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 2:31 am

    GB said:
    =======

    A more realistic cost of the bike would be $1000 Trillion, because no matter how hard and how long the son works he can never earn the bike.

    So now if the father requires the son to give the father $1 for the bike, did the son earn the bike?

    No!!!!

    Echo:
    =====

    Okay, lets use your numbers. I am okay with that.
    GB, you have told me that in order to gain eternal life you must obey ALL of the commandments. That means (TO ME) that the cost you must pay for the bike is not $1.00 but rather your cost is $1000.00 trillion. I imagine (TO YOU) the $1.00 represents the amount you actually pay after doing all you can do and repenting so that you are possibly thinking that the rest of the outstanding amount is a gift, is that correct?

    But hear me out, I am not saying this is an LDS teaching but only my conclusion of the LDS teachings you have shared with me so far….
    You have explained that you must obey ALL the commandments but you also have repentance wherein should you sin, if you overcome your sin you will be forgiven.

    That tells me that the cost to you is still 1000.00 trillion. That means that you must overcome all sin and reach that 1000.00 trillion.
    Even the LDS teaches that no unclean person can enter the kingdom of heaven and I agree with that. But that means that ALL our sin must be forgiven otherwise we are unclean. If you believe you must overcome sin to be forgiven then you must overcome ALL sin otherwise you are unclean.

    GB said:
    ========

    Here is where your argument is hypocritical. Even you believe that the recipient of salvation has to DO something. So by YOUR statement “Where there are conditions, it is no longer a free gift because there is a cost”, means that EVEN you believe that it isn’t FREE, because the recipient has to DO something to get salvation.

    By your beliefs, to receive salvation one has to meet the condition of accepting that salvation. By DOING so the recipient has PAID the price and EARNED salvation by meeting the conditions.

    By your beliefs, to receive salvation one has to meet the condition of accepting that salvation. By DOING so the recipient has PAID the price and EARNED salvation by meeting the conditions.

    Echo:
    ====

    Incorrect. If my father gives me a bike as a gift, I accept the fact that he has already given me the bike as a gift. I already had the bike before I accepted that fact! So my acceptance isn’t a condition of my salvation. I can however reject the gift that was given to me.

  28. 28 jm
    June 30, 2009 at 6:45 am

    GB: And so are you. We can NEVER repay Jesus for our salvation even if He expected us to which He doesn’t. We will ALWAYS be in debt to Him. To repay Him is BEYOND our capability.

    So which is it GB: True, but that doesn’t change the fact that the intent of this analogy is to teach the concepts of justice, mercy and love. Either it’s the concept of justice in which you are a debtor and it has to be repayed. Our it mercy and love that’s a free gift. You can not have it both ways. And you are wrong, you will always be in debt to him. I myself have been forgiven by his GRACE, which is his free gift to me.

  29. 29 faithoffathers
    June 30, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Ya’ll are right- my religion is completely different from yours.

    Think about this for a second- our own earthly justice system is more fair than the religion and doctrine you are espousing. There is a complete disconnect in the logic of your doctrine. You really believe God does not require that a person repent and make restitution to the degree that he or she is able? That truly stumps and amazes me.

    What good does your religion do to the soul of a person if it expects nothing more than this? Our own legal system or a decent earthly mother or father has more wisdom and sense than this. Really think about this. And I don’t believe it is a matter of “God’s ways are not man’s ways.”

    The most consistent message of Christ and the apostles was REPENT. And repentence requires changing behavior and making ammends where possible. “Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” In other words, repent first. Then the supplication to God.

    You are taking one interpretation of a few verses to form the basis of your entire religion. There are alternative intperpretations that not only make tons more sense but are more in alignment with what Christ taught as well as the nature of man and the world.

    fof

  30. 30 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    E: Incorrect. If my father gives me a bike as a gift, I accept the fact that he has already given me the bike as a gift. I already had the bike before I accepted that fact! So my acceptance isn’t a condition of my salvation. I can however reject the gift that was given to me.

    GB: Here let me clarify your statement.

    If my father gives me a bike as a gift AND I ACCEPT IT, I accept the fact that he has already given me the bike as a gift AND ACCEPTED IT. I already had the bike (BECAUSE I ACCEPTED IT) before I accepted that fact! So my acceptance IS a condition of my salvation. I can however reject the gift that was given to me.

    Like I said BEFORE!!!

    Here is where your argument is hypocritical. Even you believe that the recipient of salvation has to DO something. So by YOUR statement “Where there are conditions, it is no longer a free gift because there is a cost”, means that EVEN you believe that it isn’t FREE, because the recipient has to DO something to get salvation.

    By your beliefs, to receive salvation one has to meet the condition of accepting that salvation. By DOING so the recipient has PAID the price and EARNED salvation by meeting the conditions.

  31. 31 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    FOF,

    Well said, as usual.

  32. 32 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    jm,

    Nice “false choice” you presented there!!

    God, Himself, in the Bible no less, has placed conditions upon the reception of eternal life. Now you guys can pound on us all you want, but that doesn’t make those God established conditions go away.

  33. 33 ADB
    June 30, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    GB

    We’re not pounding. We’d just like you to admit that you will never ever–whether through premortal existence or this life or the life to follow–meet those conditions. Then we can talk about grace:)

  34. 34 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    ADB: We’re not pounding.

    GB: Oh, Pla-eese.

    A: We’d just like you to admit that you will never ever–whether through premortal existence or this life or the life to follow–meet those conditions.

    GB: There you go again trying to make this about me. My current relationship with God is irrelevant here.

    The problem with your statement is that you assume that something that IS possible is impossible. You guys neglect what Jesus taught in Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

    (Does that sound like you guys, or what?)

    27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

    (Does it take faith to believe that what you guys say is impossible, is actually possible?)

    —-

    I didn’t set the conditions!!!! God did!!!

    If you don’t like that, you will have to take it up with Him. If you can convince Him to remove HIS conditions, then great (good luck with that, LOL!!). But until then, I am not going to ignore HIS conditions.

    A: Then we can talk about grace:)

    GB: Another “false choice”! Accepting God’s conditions (which are a grace) doesn’t negate grace.

  35. 35 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    FOF,

    Our earthly Mothers and Fathers didn’t make restitution or repentance a requirement to
    become their children nor was it a requirement that needed to be met in order to be able to call their home our home.

    By birth we became the children of our parents and were given the certainty that we would always have a permanent home because of the love that our parents had for us. That came FIRST, BEFORE our parents raised us up in the way we should go.

    Repentance and restitution have their proper place.

  36. 36 GB
    June 30, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    E: Our earthly Mothers and Fathers didn’t make restitution or repentance a requirement to
    become their children nor was it a requirement that needed to be met in order to be able to call their home our home.

    GB: True, but what does that have to do with FOF’s comments? Did we sin against our parents before we became their children and entered their home?

    E: By birth we became the children of our parents and were given the certainty that we would always have a permanent home because of the love that our parents had for us.

    GB: True, but what does that have to do with FOF’s comments? Did we sin against our parents before we became their children and entered their home? Does their love for us keep them from correcting and disciplining us when we stray? Or does it cause them to correct and discipline us when we stray?

    Does the Lord not chasten His children?

    E: That came FIRST, BEFORE our parents raised us up in the way we should go.

    GB: True, but what does that have to do with FOF’s comments? So your parents did discipline you and caused you to repent and make restitution WHEN you went astray. Before you strayed there wasn’t any thing to repent of or make restitution for.

    E: Repentance and restitution have their proper place.

    GB: That is indeed TRUE!!!!

  37. June 30, 2009 at 10:54 pm

    I’ve ignored the conversation pretty much and just wanted to put in a word on what Mark was saying about the IRS and debt forgiveness. As a bankruptcy attorney, it caught my eye.

    It is true that forgiven debt is generally deemed taxable income by the IRS. This is something you’ll never hear from all those debt management outfits that seem to plague Christian talk radio. It used to be true of short sales on home mortgages as well. Congress recently remedied that and gave people an exemption for home debt forgiveness.

    However, forgiven debt is not taxable income if it was discharged in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is exempt from this.

    Just thought I’d throw that in. Not a lot of people know it, and therefore are taken advantage of by sleazy debt management outfits.

    I never could understand why Christian talk radio seems like such an utter magnet for scam artist ads.

  38. 38 Echo
    June 30, 2009 at 11:12 pm

    Thanks for sharing that information with us Seth!

    God’s law demands perfection from us at all times. Because of our sin, we are bankrupt.

  39. 39 geoff456
    July 1, 2009 at 1:20 am

    Echo,

    What do YOU think the purpose of repentance is? Do you believe in repentance and forgiveness? Or are we “bankrupt” by our sins forever? Does God demand perfection? Or does He forgive the penitent, wipe away the sin and forget it happenend?

    Geoff

  40. 40 faithoffathers
    July 1, 2009 at 1:21 am

    Echo,

    I am afraid you are taking the reference to wise parenting a little far. What you are essentially saying is that no matter what we do, God will always be our creator. Sorry, but that doesn’t seem too profound to me. At least that is the correct parallel you point to in the metaphor of parents and God.

    The doctrine that some here are proclaiming is going down a path of absolute silliness. To say that it is not necessary for the criminal in my post to repay the money he stole or make ammends to the clerk just screams of tortured doctrine made necessary out of incorrect interpretation of scripture. It turns the Gospel of Jesus Christ on its head.

    Man is accountable for his behavior. Fortunately, and as a result of God’s love and condescention, He has provided a way to have our sins washed away. It is through the atonement of His Son and no other way. Although none of us is perfect, we must do our best to keep God’s commandments. Where we fail, we are invited with love to repent and have the blood of Christ ransom us from our sin.

    To remove our behavior from our set of responsibilities is as false a doctrine as any. It is the same mentality that keeps generations dependent on government handouts. God expects us to square our shoulders and give our best effort. The doctrine I am hearing is defeatism and favoritism.

    I am so grateful for the restoration of sound doctrine. So grateful for the second witness of Christ in the Book of Mormon which establishes the powerful and clear doctrines of salvation. It is truly a pearl of great price.

    fof

  41. 41 ADB
    July 1, 2009 at 3:39 am

    FOF,

    So who sets the standard for “doing one’s best?” You? God? Because I assure you God’s standards aren’t nearly as forgiving as you and any LDS are hoping they are.

    That’s why he both set and met the standards for us in Christ Jesus.

  42. July 1, 2009 at 4:11 am

    No legitimate Christian denomination teaches that repentance is not necessary, but the repentance that leads to life is the gift of God. (Acts 11:18). Genuine faith (which is a gift) always includes repentance. Life is a gift. Faith is a gift. Repentance is a gift. Even genuine good works are a gift, “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” (Philippians 2:11-13).

    What do the dead do as a condition for life? Are the dead raised to life after they do all they can do? “You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?” (Matthew 12:34).

    The spiritually alive believe, repent, and want to do good works; but they did not become alive after doing all they could do. They did all they could do after becoming alive, because the dead can do nothing. What condition does God require of the dead to receive life?

    “I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.” [John 5:25].

    Life itself is a pure gift.

    (See also the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article IV, 14-23).

  43. 43 faithoffathers
    July 1, 2009 at 4:55 am

    Rick,

    Once again we come to the question- if the faith and repentence that leads to conversion and forgiveness are out of the grasp of the individual, then everything is determined by God. He is then a respector of persons and we have control over nothing. I fear the creed you cite interprets a few verses incorrectly and leads a person more than a few cubits off the ole path.

    The verse from John 5 you cite refers to those who are literally, physically dead- in the spirit world, or shoel to the Jews. They would literally hear Christ’s voice and soon be resurrected.

    ADB- God sets the standard. And God knows our hearts, desires, and limitations. If I am to believe you, there is no reason for doing good things outside of thanking God. In other words, it contributes nothing else. Am I right? So why thank God? Will He forgive us for not thanking Him?

    The doctrine is much like buying votes to a politician. The senator or respresentative manipulates his office and position to bestow gifts and handouts from the people’s purse. The recipients in turn keep electing that public “servant.” The moral question of what is right and what is to be gained by doing what is right is completely ignored by both participants in the process.

    fof

  44. 44 RLO
    July 1, 2009 at 4:55 am

    Absolute silliness indeed. I would even call it foolishness. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    It’s not that outwardly moral and responsible behavior don’t play a part, both in the lives of the mormon and in the lives of the evengelical christian; they do. The difference is in the motive for which mormons, and evangelical christians, do those good works. As an evengelical christian, any good works on my part are not for the purpose of getting saved. They are out of gratitude for the fact that I am saved. Furthermore, if I were not saved, I would be incapable of even doing any good works pleasing to the Lord.

    Would you consider it a fair statement to say that mormons place their good works prior to their salvation, whereas evangelical christians place there good works subsequent to their salvation?

  45. 45 jm
    July 1, 2009 at 7:11 am

    Gb, You said:Nice “false choice” you presented there!!

    Sorry but there is only one choice.

    Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

  46. 46 jm
    July 1, 2009 at 7:51 am

    fof: The most consistent message of Christ and the apostles was REPENT. And repentence requires changing behavior and making ammends where possible.

    Can you show some scripture where Christ and the apostles taught repentence and ammends to God. The one you wrote down covers repentence to man and a sacrifice to God. Where repentence to God is taught it just says to repent.

    You also said: In other words, repent first. Then the supplication to God.

    So you are saying we should first repent then offer our sacrifice to God?

  47. 47 ADB
    July 1, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    FOF,

    First of all, thanks for reading posts and addressing the points within–it’s a breath of fresh air. It makes dialogue that much easier when it’s two-sided:)

    FOF: “If I am to believe you, there is no reason for doing good things outside of thanking God.”

    I would tweak it to say there is no other “God-pleasing” reason. People do things out of guilt or to avoid punishment all the time (I would say this would include the majority of the LDS and their obedience to Jesus, but also includes Christians at times). Look at how much Christianity has contributed to society through things like hospitals and various organizations that provide help for the poor & needy. Why throughout history have Christians done such things? It isn’t to gain favor from Heavenly Father, but rather out of gratitude because they know that in Christ Jesus they already have Heavenly Father’s favor and will live with him forever.

    Could you comment on my points about “doing one’s best?” I’d like to hear a little more about your take on what I’ve written about it in posts 25 & 42.

    I ask because Heavenly Father has led me to believe that my best is never going to be good enough. I’ve read the Bible and have not come across any such passage that simply encourages me to “give it my best shot.” What I do see is passage after passage after passage (even from Jesus himself) that demands perfect obedience to his every command right this instant.

    I won’t pretend I can accomplish that (but that doesn’t leave me off the hook). This is where repentance comes in. I’m trying to understand the LDS take on repentance (maybe you could help). Does the LDS view hold that for repentance to have any merit, the one repenting has to refrain from every committing that same sin again? My understanding of the LDS view is that repentance is this extra gift that Heavenly Father gives to “kick in” when our best efforts fall short (which they ALWAYS will).

    Christians see repentance as more than just Heavenly Father’s gift TO us, but also his work IN us. When he works repentance in us, it is more than just a temporary cover-up for some “whoopsies” called sin, or a “fill-in” for our lack of perfect obedience. Repentance is Heavenly Father leading me to the awful recognition that my daily sin is damnable before him (and always will be). The second part of repentance is his leading me to the wonderful recognition that Christ has fully paid for my every damnable sin (without limit!).

    Because of Christ I will live with Heavenly Father forever!

  48. 48 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Geoff said:
    ===========

    Echo,

    What do YOU think the purpose of repentance is? Do you believe in repentance and forgiveness? Or are we “bankrupt” by our sins forever? Does God demand perfection? Or does He forgive the penitent, wipe away the sin and forget it happenend?

    Echo:
    ====

    I believe in repentance and forgiveness.

    My definition of repentance is: “a change of mind”

    In Genesis 6:6 God repented that he had made man. God had a “change of mind” that he had made man.

    Forgiveness is a free gift meaning we ARE forgiven apart from anything we do, before we do anything. Even those who are in everlasting fire with Satan and his demons had their sins forgiven. God forgave the sins of the entire world, the penitant and impenitant. Romans 4:7,
    2 Cor 5:19 etc.

    God demands perfection and nothing short of that. Anyone who isn’t perfect goes to everlasting fire with Satan and his demons.

    God has already made us completely perfect so we won’t fall short. We have certainty of eternal life.

    We would be bankrupt forever if God hadn’t of made us perfect. Without that perfection, we remain bankrupt. Imagine a canyon. We on one side and God on the other. It doesn’t matter how hard we try or how much effort we put in, we can never fly across that canyon flapping our arms. Jesus is our helicopter ride to the other side.

  49. 49 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    FOF said:
    ========

    I am afraid you are taking the reference to wise parenting a little far. What you are essentially saying is that no matter what we do, God will always be our creator.

    Echo:
    =====

    Actually, the parallel I am trying to draw is that God’s home is our home, that is something children always know and have certaintly of.

    John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    Once that certaintly is in place, God leads us in the way we should go.

    FOF said:
    =========

    The doctrine that some here are proclaiming is going down a path of absolute silliness. To say that it is not necessary for the criminal in my post to repay the money he stole or make ammends to the clerk just screams of tortured doctrine made necessary out of incorrect interpretation of scripture. It turns the Gospel of Jesus Christ on its head.

    Man is accountable for his behavior. Fortunately, and as a result of God’s love and condescention, He has provided a way to have our sins washed away. It is through the atonement of His Son and no other way. Although none of us is perfect, we must do our best to keep God’s commandments. Where we fail, we are invited with love to repent and have the blood of Christ ransom us from our sin.

    To remove our behavior from our set of responsibilities is as false a doctrine as any. It is the same mentality that keeps generations dependent on government handouts. God expects us to square our shoulders and give our best effort. The doctrine I am hearing is defeatism and favoritism.

    I am so grateful for the restoration of sound doctrine. So grateful for the second witness of Christ in the Book of Mormon which establishes the powerful and clear doctrines of salvation. It is truly a pearl of great price.

    Echo:
    =====

    Your misunderstanding. God always leads his children in the way they should go. However, he doesn’t make that a condition to having the certainty that his home is our home.
    He gives us the certainty that eternal life is ours first, and then he leads his children in the way they should go.

  50. 50 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Echo,

    You keep implying that those who reject your doctrine (FOF, myself, etc.) don’t understand it. We understand it just fine. We just know better.

    We have supported our position over and over again with Bible scripture. Did those scriptures change your mind at all? No, not really. You have provided the scriptures you use to get your doctrine. Did those scriptures change our minds at all? No, not really.

    I know the scriptures that you use to come up with your doctrine and I understand your doctrine and I understand why you believe it. I will just say that without small portions of a few epistles of Paul (specifically, Romans, Ephesians, & Galations) your doctrine would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

    I have posted numerous verses that show WHY I don’t accept your doctrine. I see tremendously large holes in your doctrine. And no EV has yet been able to address these holes satisfactorily.

    I am not the only one that sees a huge disconnect between what Jesus plainly and clearly taught and how you (mis)interpret the words of Paul.

    There are now some EV’s that claim that the reason for this disconnect (thus acknowledging it) is because up until His resurrection, Jesus was operating under the law of Moses. And this necessitated that the Gospel Jesus personally taught be different than the gospel Paul taught.

    I find this to be a tremendous admission. And the implications are fascinating.

  51. 51 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    GB,

    I can’t tell you what EV’s mean when they speak, you would have to ask them. I can only speak for myself, you know what I mean? I dont’ want to put words in the mouth of EV’s.

    There are no holes in what I believe.

    The Bible teaches to ways to gain eternal life and both demand perfection:

    1)perfect obedience to the law

    2)faith alone in Jesus

    Since I am a sinner, my only option is #2

  52. 52 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Correction hahaha….I said: “the bible teaches to ways”
    That should read: “the bible teaches two ways”

    I need to get more sleep. LOL ;)

  53. 53 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Echo,

    You will have to define what you mean by “faith” because NOWHERE in the Bible does it teach “faith alone”. NOWHERE in the Bible is the phrase “faith alone” used (so much for “sola scriptura”). In fact the ONLY verse in the Bible that has both “faith” and “alone” in it is . . .

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    That is a hole in your doctrine that I can’t ignore.

  54. 54 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    jm: Can you show some scripture where Christ and the apostles taught repentence and ammends to God.

    GB: Here are a few.

    Matt. 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    • • •
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    • • •
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    Matt. 4:17 ¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Matt. 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matt. 11: 20 ¶ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
    21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

    Matt. 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Matt. 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

    Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    • • •
    15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
    Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
    • • •
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

    Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    • • •
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

    Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

    2 Cor. 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
    10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    2 Cor. 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

    2 Tim. 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

    Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    • • •
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Heb. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Rev. 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    • • •
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
    • • •
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

  55. 55 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    GB,

    When I speak of “faith alone”, I am refering to a “faith” through which we are saved.
    A faith that believes in the existence of God is NOT a faith through which we are saved. Satan and his demons believe in the existence of God and “shuttered” but their “faith” is NOT a faith through which they are saved.

    A faith through which we are saved is a faith that trusts in the person and work of Jesus. A faith that trust in what HE DID in our behalf, rather than a faith that trusts in what WE DO. Since we do not trust in what WE DO, we come to the term: “faith alone”

    Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain. We have absolute certainty all the time, the absolute certainty that all our sins are forgiven, that we have been clothed with Christ’s perfection permanently (Christ’s righteousness imputed to us) and that eternal life is our home. All of this is so absolutely certain for us because none of it depends on anything WE DO but Soley and entirely was dependant on what Jesus has done for us.

    So “faith alone” basically means 100% dependance on Jesus and 0% dependance on anything we do.

    There are many, many scripture passages where the word “faith” is alone. For example:

    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish but have eternal life”

    In this verse, “faith” is alone. If faith weren’t alone, the verse might read something like this:

    “For God so love the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believes in him and meets the conditions should not perish but have eternal life”

    “James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

    The above verse is a wonderful explanation of how once we are saved through faith alone having the certainty of the things I spoke about above, that faith, from that day forward, is never alone. With news as wonderful as all that Jesus has done for us, we cannot help but want to express that faith through love and good works. We are not trusting in that love or good works but always trusting in Jesus alone and salvation by faith alone. After all, Salvation by faith alone is very motivating!

  56. 56 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    Echo,

    It is interesting to me that NOT ONCE did you even suggest, that faith is believing what Jesus taught.

    That is another hole that I can’t ignore.

  57. 57 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    GB,

    When I said: “Faith in the person and work of Jesus”, that includes believing what Jesus taught. No holes there.

  58. 58 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    Echo,

    Here are some more issues I have with what you said.

    E: Since we do not trust in what WE DO, we come to the term: “faith alone”

    GB: And yet, YOU DO trust in what YOU DO believe. So much so, to the point of ignoring the clear and plain teachings of Jesus that conflict with your doctrine. It is rather obvious to me that your “faith alone” certainly EXCLUDES the teachings of Jesus.

    You have so much trust in your own interpretation of scripture (the small part that you base your doctrine on) that you willfully ignore the clear and plain teachings of Jesus and place in preeminence YOUR interpretation of the words of Paul (neglecting the warning of Peter).

    It is clear to me that you have MORE TRUST in yourself than you do in Jesus and His teachings.

    E: Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain.

    GB: IF that were true, THEN we are all saved regardless of what we do. So it OBVIOUSLY, ISN’T true. Jesus never taught that and yet you have more trust in your own interpretation than you do in what Jesus actually taught.

    E: We have absolute certainty all the time, the absolute certainty that all our sins are forgiven, that we have been clothed with Christ’s perfection permanently (Christ’s righteousness imputed to us) and that eternal life is our home.

    GB: So again, you have MORE TRUST in your ability to interpret scripture (at least that small portion of Paul’s epistles) than you have trust in what Jesus plainly and clearly taught.

    E: All of this is so absolutely certain for us because none of it depends on anything WE DO but Soley and entirely was dependant on what Jesus has done for us.

    GB: And your certainty is based on your trust in your own ability to interpret scripture.

  59. 59 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 8:24 pm

    E: When I said: “Faith in the person and work of Jesus”, that includes believing what Jesus taught. No holes there.

    GB: Really? The major portion of our disagreement is based on what Jesus plainly and clearly taught.

    Specifically where Jesus taught that eternal life is given to those that obey the commandments.

    Matt. 19:17 . . . but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So do you really believe what Jesus clearly and plainly taught in those three verses?

  60. 60 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    GB said:
    =======

    E: Since we do not trust in what WE DO, we come to the term: “faith alone”

    GB: And yet, YOU DO trust in what YOU DO believe. So much so, to the point of ignoring the clear and plain teachings of Jesus that conflict with your doctrine. It is rather obvious to me that your “faith alone” certainly EXCLUDES the teachings of Jesus.

    Echo:
    =====

    Honestly speaking, I don’t ignore any of the words of Jesus, and I say this politely: it just “seems” that way to you. Nothing Jesus taught conflicts with my doctrine. Perhaps you have other misunderstandings that cause this conflict for you. That is why continued discussion is so important. Faith alone doesn’t exclude the teachings of Jesus at all.

    GB said:
    =======

    You have so much trust in your own interpretation of scripture (the small part that you base your doctrine on) that you willfully ignore the clear and plain teachings of Jesus and place in preeminence YOUR interpretation of the words of Paul (neglecting the warning of Peter).

    It is clear to me that you have MORE TRUST in yourself than you do in Jesus and His teachings.

    Echo:
    =====

    Respectfully, I believe the same about you. That is why continued discussion is so important.
    Let’s get into the word together and let the word sort this all out for us.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain.

    GB: IF that were true, THEN we are all saved regardless of what we do. So it OBVIOUSLY, ISN’T true. Jesus never taught that and yet you have more trust in your own interpretation than you do in what Jesus actually taught.

    Echo:
    =====

    Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain. Only those who believe it have recieved it.

    I don’t put my own interpretation on scripture, I allow scripture to interpret scripture, not adding to it or subtracting from what it says.

    GB said:
    ========

    E: We have absolute certainty all the time, the absolute certainty that all our sins are forgiven, that we have been clothed with Christ’s perfection permanently (Christ’s righteousness imputed to us) and that eternal life is our home.

    GB: So again, you have MORE TRUST in your ability to interpret scripture (at least that small portion of Paul’s epistles) than you have trust in what Jesus plainly and clearly taught.

    E: All of this is so absolutely certain for us because none of it depends on anything WE DO but Soley and entirely was dependant on what Jesus has done for us.

    GB: And your certainty is based on your trust in your own ability to interpret scripture.

    Echo:
    ====

    Respectfully, I feel the same way about you. So let’s let God speak to us both through his word. It is there that he will change minds.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: When I said: “Faith in the person and work of Jesus”, that includes believing what Jesus taught. No holes there.

    GB: Really? The major portion of our disagreement is based on what Jesus plainly and clearly taught.

    Echo:
    ====

    We do disagree, but that doesn’t mean my interpretation is the wrong one, nor that it is in disagreement with what Jesus plainly and clearly taught, it could be your interpretation that is wrong and in disagreement with what Jesus cleary and plainly taught.

    Jesus taught that we must realize that we are blind before he can give us sight. That calls for a heart to be willing to listen, willing to be open-minded, willing to learn, willing to think that they might be wrong, willing to examine the scriptures to see if what anyone says is true or not. After all, the Bereans were considered “of noble character” because they searched the scripture every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    Acts 17:11 ” Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    GB said:
    =======

    Specifically where Jesus taught that eternal life is given to those that obey the commandments.

    Matt. 19:17 . . . but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So do you really believe what Jesus clearly and plainly taught in those three verses?

    Echo:
    ====

    I do believe what Jesus clearly and plainly taught in those scriptures. I also believe God when he said we must worship in spirit and in TRUTH. That means I must speak the truth (about myself) while interpreting scripture.

    Matt 19:17

    Is the story of the Rich man, remember he had to be perfect BEFORE he could even follow Jesus.
    If I worship God in TRUTH, I will admit to God that I can’t be perfect before I follow Jesus, it is impossible for me, I am a sinner. The fact that it is impossible for me to do what Jesus is teaching here doesn’t negate the fact that I must be perfect before I follow Jesus, nor does it negate his teaching. That truth still remains, I simply am unable to be perfect.
    Therefore I have no hope whatsoever of gaining eternal life by perfect obedience to the commandments because I am a sinner.

    So what is Jesus teaching me here! He is completely ridding me of my faith in myself and in what I DO, in preperation for something much, much greater- faith in Jesus alone.

  61. 61 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 9:54 pm

    The parable of the Rich man destroys 100% of my faith in myself bringing it to 0% in preperation for hole being replaced with 100% faith alone in Jesus alone.

  62. 62 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    Oops, another typo….

    I said: “in preperation for hole being replaced…”
    Should be “in prepartation for the hole left being replaced…”

    Is it bedtime yet? LOL

  63. 63 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 10:18 pm

    E: Honestly speaking, I don’t ignore any of the words of Jesus, and I say this politely: it just “seems” that way to you. Nothing Jesus taught conflicts with my doctrine. Perhaps you have other misunderstandings that cause this conflict for you. That is why continued discussion is so important. Faith alone doesn’t exclude the teachings of Jesus at all.

    GB: That is just unsupported assertion. Just saying it doesn’t make it true.

    E: Respectfully, I believe the same about you. That is why continued discussion is so important.
    Let’s get into the word together and let the word sort this all out for us.

    GB: That is EXACTLY what I have been doing.

    E: Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain. Only those who believe it have recieved it.

    GB: Do you even understand that that statement is internally inconsistent? You claim that Jesus has done it all, but then say that we have to believe. If we have to do something (believe) then Jesus didn’t do it all.

    E: I don’t put my own interpretation on scripture, I allow scripture to interpret scripture, not adding to it or subtracting from what it says.

    GB: So you are trusting in your own ability to interpret scripture to the point that you are declaring the scriptural interpretation of scripture. So again, you are putting your trust in your own ability to interpret scripture.

    E: Respectfully, I feel the same way about you. So let’s let God speak to us both through his word. It is there that he will change minds.

    GB: That is EXACTLY what I have been doing.

    E: We do disagree, but that doesn’t mean my interpretation is the wrong one, nor that it is in disagreement with what Jesus plainly and clearly taught, it could be your interpretation that is wrong and in disagreement with what Jesus cleary and plainly taught.

    GB: Nor does it mean that my interpretation is wrong, especially since I quote Jesus in support of my position FAR more than you do.

    E: Jesus taught that we must realize that we are blind before he can give us sight.

    GB: Is that YOUR interpretation of what Jesus taught or the real thing? Why not just quote Jesus directly?

    E: That calls for a heart to be willing to listen, willing to be open-minded, willing to learn, willing to think that they might be wrong, willing to examine the scriptures to see if what anyone says is true or not.

    GB: And that is something that you have been UNABLE to do.

    E: After all, the Bereans were considered “of noble character” because they searched the scripture every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    GB: Do you think that I don’t know the Bible? Do you realize that the Bereans would have been studying the Old Testament.

    E: I do believe what Jesus clearly and plainly taught in those scriptures.

    GB: Saying it doesn’t make it true.

    E: I also believe God when he said we must worship in spirit and in TRUTH. That means I must speak the truth (about myself) while interpreting scripture.

    GB: Again, trusting in your own ability to “know” the truth.

    Matt 19:17

    Is the story of the Rich man, remember he had to be perfect BEFORE he could even follow Jesus.
    If I worship God in TRUTH, I will admit to God that I can’t be perfect before I follow Jesus, it is impossible for me, I am a sinner. The fact that it is impossible for me to do what Jesus is teaching here doesn’t negate the fact that I must be perfect before I follow Jesus, nor does it negate his teaching. That truth still remains, I simply am unable to be perfect.
    Therefore I have no hope whatsoever of gaining eternal life by perfect obedience to the commandments because I am a sinner.

    GB: We have been over this, and I have shown with NUMEROUS verses (that you never addressed) that your interpretation is inconsistent with other scripture. We don’t have to be perfect BEFORE we can follow Jesus. We have to follow Jesus to become perfect. Your continued ignorance of this verified fact doesn’t make it go away.

    E: So what is Jesus teaching me here!

    GB: It is OBVIOUS that to be perfect, we need to follow Jesus. But you won’t see that because you are so confident in your own ability to interpret scripture. This is a perfect example you are so busy trying to shove your interpretation into these verses that you WON’T see that IT JUST DOESN’T FIT.

    E: He is completely ridding me of my faith in myself and in what I DO, in preperation for something much, much greater- faith in Jesus alone.

    GB: What a bunch of drivel. You are so confident in your ability to interpret that you totally ignore the NUMEROUS conflicts that it has with other scripture.

  64. 64 GB
    July 1, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    E,
    Your interpretation of the parable of the Rich man destroys 100% of your faith in what Jesus clearly and plainly taught, bringing it to 0% in preparation for hole being filled with 100% trust in your own interpretation alone.

    There I fixed it for you.

  65. 65 Echo
    July 1, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    GB said:
    ========

    E: Jesus did everything to make our salvation certain. Only those who believe it have recieved it.

    GB: Do you even understand that that statement is internally inconsistent? You claim that Jesus has done it all, but then say that we have to believe. If we have to do something (believe) then Jesus didn’t do it all.

    Echo:
    =====

    It isn’t inconsistent actually.

    Faith is a gift from God.
    Remember the icecream cone we discussed?

    1) You cannot believe I gave you an icecream cone until I actually give you an icecream cone. When I give you an icecream cone, you have been given the ability (faith) to believe it because it is in your hand. Your ability to believe it was my doing, because I gave you the icecream cone.

    2) The fact that you believe I gave the icecream cone to you doesn’t mean that your faith is what caused me to give the icecream cone to you. Your faith wasn’t the “cause” but rather the “result”.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: I don’t put my own interpretation on scripture, I allow scripture to interpret scripture, not adding to it or subtracting from what it says.

    GB: So you are trusting in your own ability to interpret scripture to the point that you are declaring the scriptural interpretation of scripture. So again, you are putting your trust in your own ability to interpret scripture.

    Echo:
    =====

    Who’s interpretation of scripture are you trusting in?
    Who’s interpretation of my words to you, are you trusting in?

    GB said:
    =======

    E: Respectfully, I feel the same way about you. So let’s let God speak to us both through his word. It is there that he will change minds.

    GB: That is EXACTLY what I have been doing.

    Echo:
    =====

    That’s awesome. That’s how we learn and that’s how our minds are changed if we are wrong.

    GB said:
    ========

    Matt 19:17

    Is the story of the Rich man, remember he had to be perfect BEFORE he could even follow Jesus.
    If I worship God in TRUTH, I will admit to God that I can’t be perfect before I follow Jesus, it is impossible for me, I am a sinner. The fact that it is impossible for me to do what Jesus is teaching here doesn’t negate the fact that I must be perfect before I follow Jesus, nor does it negate his teaching. That truth still remains, I simply am unable to be perfect.
    Therefore I have no hope whatsoever of gaining eternal life by perfect obedience to the commandments because I am a sinner.

    GB: We have been over this, and I have shown with NUMEROUS verses (that you never addressed) that your interpretation is inconsistent with other scripture. We don’t have to be perfect BEFORE we can follow Jesus. We have to follow Jesus to become perfect. Your continued ignorance of this verified fact doesn’t make it go away.

    Echo:
    =====

    Sometimes I don’t address something you write because first of all, I like to focus on certain things and avoid too much discussion on too many things at once, it just creates confusion. Another reason is because sometimes I think explaining it to you at a certain point in a discussion will only confuse you more. Sometimes I will reply, but breifly.

    Just to answer you now breifly,

    We believe in two doctrines. One is justification and the other is sanctification.

    Faith alone in Jesus alone belongs is the doctrine of justification. This is really where I would like to keep our focus and discussion since it is the doctrine wherein a person is saved.
    It is the doctrine wherein Christ has made us perfect forever so that we can follow him.

    Sanctification is the doctrine that follows (comes after) justification. Once we are justified (justification) through faith alone, our life as believers begins and here is where we place all the verses you are speaking about. Verses having to do with becoming perfect.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: He is completely ridding me of my faith in myself and in what I DO, in preperation for something much, much greater- faith in Jesus alone.

    GB: What a bunch of drivel. You are so confident in your ability to interpret that you totally ignore the NUMEROUS conflicts that it has with other scripture.

    Echo:
    =====

    It’s your misunderstanding that is causing the conflict for you.

  66. 66 JesusLover
    July 2, 2009 at 4:09 am

    I’ve been reading this back and forth discussion and I must say that it is pretty hard going in the format that both writers post in. I read this portion that was posted and one thing stands out to me:

    “Matt 19:17

    Is the story of the Rich man, remember he had to be perfect BEFORE he could even follow Jesus.
    If I worship God in TRUTH, I will admit to God that I can’t be perfect before I follow Jesus, it is impossible for me, I am a sinner. The fact that it is impossible for me to do what Jesus is teaching here doesn’t negate the fact that I must be perfect before I follow Jesus, nor does it negate his teaching. That truth still remains, I simply am unable to be perfect.
    Therefore I have no hope whatsoever of gaining eternal life by perfect obedience to the commandments because I am a sinner.

    GB: We have been over this, and I have shown with NUMEROUS verses (that you never addressed) that your interpretation is inconsistent with other scripture. We don’t have to be perfect BEFORE we can follow Jesus. We have to follow Jesus to become perfect. Your continued ignorance of this verified fact doesn’t make it go away. ”

    What needs to be said right now – as this discussion seems to go round and round is that the bible is filled with what are called “parrellel truths” – two seemingly incongruent truths that can cause the kind of confusion that it would appear mormons have with traditional Christian beliefs. In the above portion I quoted – both ideas about perfection are true – one has to be perfect before one follows Jesus AND one becomes perfect as we follow Jesus (but not achieved until we reach heaven). The first “perfect” reference doesn’t mean out behaviour is perfect – it means that when we accept personally that Christ died on the cross for our sins we are washed clean of all our sins past, present and future and covered by Jesus’s blood. This covering renders us perfect in God’s eyes thus the fact/doctrine that we must be perfect first before we can follow Him or please God. The other reference to perfection refers to the process here on earth as we follow Christ and submit more and more of ourselves voluntarily to Him and His Holy Spirit changes us inside so that we exibit more Christlike behaviours.

    Arguing about perfection on either side is lacking something because true Christianity teaches both these points as part of the truth of Christ’s redemption. Another “parralell truth is that while God draws us to Him – we have to make a decision to follow God ourselves.

    Maybe this will help this discussion which is going around in circles because the LDS beliefs do not teach both sides of the coin like the evangelicals do. That I think is why GB you can’t “get” what the other fellow is saying because you are reading scripture that says you have to work to be perfect like Jesus but yet you are missing the doctrines and scriptures that talk about only the shed blood of Christ on the cross can make us perfect.

  67. 67 ADB
    July 6, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    FOF,

    If you get the chance, could you respond to my request(s) in post 47? I’d much appreciate it–thanks!

  68. 68 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    JL: That I think is why GB you can’t “get” what the other fellow is saying because you are reading scripture that says you have to work to be perfect like Jesus but yet you are missing the doctrines and scriptures that talk about only the shed blood of Christ on the cross can make us perfect.

    GB: Why don’t you post the scriptures that you are referring to, so I won’t miss them, for I suspect that they don’t say what you are implying here.

  69. 69 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    ADB,

    If someone stole money from you, say equal to 20% of your annual income, and then later “repented”, would you be satisfied that they had “repented” if they didn’t repay to you what they had stolen from you?

  70. 70 JesusLover
    July 6, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    GB – here is a great passage that speaks to God making us perfect once and for all just through His shed blood:

    Hebrews 10 (King James Version)

    Hebrews 10

    1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

    21And having an high priest over the house of God;

    22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

  71. 71 JesusLover
    July 6, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    This is the version of Bible that I prefer – read it also in this version as it is even clearer. We can’t make sacrifices to God and become perfect – only Christ’s blood makes us so. I really pray that you see the truth in this – I’m not trying to win an argument with you but clarify the beauty and truth of God’s love to us:

    Hebrews 10 (New International Version)

    Hebrews 10
    Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
    1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
    “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you prepared for me;
    6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you were not pleased.
    7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    I have come to do your will, O God.’ “[a] 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
    16″This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”[b] 17Then he adds:
    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

  72. 72 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    JL,
    First, you have provide ONLY ONE scripture to support your assertion (vs 14). You specifically expressed that there are more than just one by using the plural “scriptureS”. Where are the others.

    Second, notice that the word “only” is NOT found in that verse or even in that chapter. So your statement that “only the shed blood of Christ” makes us perfect is adding to the scripture. It is true that we cannot become perfect without the blood of Christ but NOWHERE does the Bible say that it is the ONLY thing involved in the process.

    The Blood of Christ IS NECESSARY but is it sufficient? Does the individual have to do something as well?

    So do you have another scripture beside this ONE, to support your assertion that there are more than one? Do you have scriptures to support your “only” claim?

  73. 73 JesusLover
    July 6, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    GB – let’s discuss this passage first. Note I didn’t just give you one verse – I gave you a whole passage. Vs. 1 states that one can’t give the same sacrifices year after year and expect perfection – the writer is not only talking about OT blood sacrifices but the things we do to try and earn God’s forgiveness and perfection. Vs. 6 even states that God was not satisfied with these. Vs. 11 and 12 contrasts someone trying to please God with sacrifices with the perfect sacrifice of Christ. vs. 17-23 – God’s wonderful promise of His faithfulness to us to make us pure.
    In Peter 1:16 the Lord commands us to “be ye holy as I am holy”. He does not say “become” He says be perfect NOW. It is a grammatical present tense. Since we are all sinners how could we be perfect right now? God would not requie something of us that was impossible to give as He is just. So – to obey God and become perfect one must accept the sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf and in God’s eyes we become perfect in His sight.

    I chose to post one scripture first because I personally find it confusing to follow multiple comments on multiple verses and I think it’s a way that mormons use to dodge responding to things they can’t explain – if quantity of verses proves something is true and one verse doesn’t – how do you mormons then justify baptising for the dead with only one passing comment in a NT verse on the subject? I don’t want to divert into this topic – I am using it just as an example of “verse quantity” since your inference here is that my view is lame as I only posted one verse.

  74. 74 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 10:28 pm

    JL: . . . the writer is not only talking about OT blood sacrifices but the things we do to try and earn God’s forgiveness and perfection.

    GB: You are reading things into it that aren’t there. The author is specifically talking about the animal blood sacrifices, NOTHING more.

    JL: Vs. 11 and 12 contrasts someone trying to please God with sacrifices with the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

    GB: You are reading things into it that aren’t there. The author is specifically talking about the animal blood sacrifices, NOTHING more.

    Sacrifices are still required, but they are not blood sacrifices but spiritual sacrifices. See 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, Rom 12:1.

    You guys seem to think that it is impossible to obey the commandments. Clearly Paul taught that it was possible.

    1 Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    When we sin, we choose to sin. We are not forced to sin, nor are we forced to obey. The choice is placed before you. So the command to be holy is possible to obey.

  75. 75 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    JL: I chose to post one scripture first because I personally find it confusing to follow multiple comments on multiple verses . . .

    GB: Yeah, sure. I think that is just an excuse to cover the fact that you don’t have another scripture. Prove me wrong.

    JL: . . . and I think it’s a way that mormons use to dodge responding to things they can’t explain

    GB: I think that refusing to address verses posted (like Echo has a habit of doing) and refusing to provided scriptures when requested is the Evangelical way to dodge responding to things they can’t explain or show.

  76. 76 GB
    July 6, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    JL: . . . if quantity of verses proves something is true and one verse doesn’t – how do you mormons then justify baptising for the dead with only one passing comment in a NT verse on the subject?

    GB: HELLO!!! Earth to JL!! We get our doctrine from the same source as the Apostles of old! That is REVELATION FROM GOD. We are not limited to trying to interpret the Bible.

    JL: I don’t want to divert into this topic – I am using it just as an example of “verse quantity” since your inference here is that my view is lame as I only posted one verse.

    GB: Then why are you diverting from the topic. YOU said there were “scriptureS” ( PLURAL!!!) and now you only provide one (SINGLE) and you are refusing to provide a second. So either admit that you were wrong and that there is ONLY ONE or provide a second. It is that simple.

    Still waiting for an admission on the “only” thing as well. I won’t hold my breath.

    Oh and here is a clue.

    Heb. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    The sanctified are perfected and sanctification is done by the Spirit See 1 Pet 1:2 and 2 Thes 2:13. This clearly shows that your “only” thing is in error because the Spirit is also involved in the perfection process.

  77. 77 JesusLover
    July 6, 2009 at 11:13 pm

    GB – maybe I am just being truthful – it’s never a good thing to judge motive especially when you don’t even know the person. I read back on the discussion – actually on many discussions – and I find that you often side-step answering and come on the offense with fists flying when you don’t seem to have a response or your beliefs are challenged. I do notice that the Christians who post here are calm, not angry and patient with you and other mormons and that speaks volumes to me.

    Anyone can claim to “hear from God”. Just because someone claims to be the only voice of the Lord doesn’t mean anything. If what their “revelation” states is in opposition to the bible – it is false – it’s as simple as that. I don’t feel “limited” with “only” the bible. If you studied it in depth you would see that there is a beauty and completeness within it and like someone else said to you – scripture proves scripture. Nothing contradicts. Your belief system has changed radically over the years in major doctrines – that does not ring true to the God who is “the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow”.

    You mentioned that the passage I wrote out was only talking about the OT sacrifice – that is untrue. Read it again – it’s very clear: “7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    I have come to do your will, O God.’ “[a] 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).” this is talking about the OT laws of sacrifice. Then the write goes on to say:

    “9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

    Do you not see that this is Jesus? How the writer is clearly stating that our sacrifices do not satisfy the Lord – that only the blood of Christ does. So you are incorrect – it is NOT only talking about the OT – if that were true why would Christ’s name be mentioned?

    I’m not sure why you think the Holy Spirit is not involved in what I said. Of course He is – Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are one.

    You seem to take an angry pleasure in trying to make us all appear lyers and false people. Do you want what you believe to be true or do you want to know the truth? Ask yourself that question….

    And note I am not being rude to you and saying “earth to..” like you did with me. I know this stuff is difficult for you to wade thru. You must have questions to be on this blog so regularly…

  78. 78 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 1:18 am

    GB said:
    ========

    So you are trusting in your own ability to interpret scripture to the point that you are declaring the scriptural interpretation of scripture. So again, you are putting your trust in your own ability to interpret scripture.

    Echo:
    =====

    Who’s interpretation of scripture are you trusting in?

  79. 79 GB
    July 7, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Echo: Who’s interpretation of scripture are you trusting in?

    GB: The Holy Spirit’s.

  80. 80 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    The Holy Spirit’s interpretation is the interpretation we trust in.
    One of us is wrong, therefore one of us is not trusting in the Holy Spirit’s interpretation.
    How do you know whether or not your interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit?

  81. 81 GB
    July 7, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    JL: I find that you often side-step answering and come on the offense . . .

    GB: I see you side-stepped 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, and Rom 12:1. Was it because “you don’t seem to have a response or your beliefs are challenged”?

    I have noticed that EV’s who post here are not that calm, get angry, use strawman arguments and red herrings, and personally attack me, that speaks volumes to me. I am beginning to conclude that it doesn’t matter how many Bible scriptures I provide that clearly and plainly show the error of what this site is all about, you guys just don’t believe what the Bible clearly and plainly teaches.

    jl: Anyone can claim to “hear from God”.

    GB: True, I see a lot of those “televangelist” and such.

    jl: Just because someone claims to be the only voice of the Lord doesn’t mean anything.

    GB: True, I see a lot of those “televangelist” and such.

    jl: If what their “revelation” states is in opposition to the bible – it is false – it’s as simple as that.

    GB: If what their “revelation” states is in opposition to what the bible really says and means then – it is false – it’s as simple as that.

    There I fixed it for you.

    And when you have a true understanding of the Bible, then you find that there are no conflicts with what it really teaches and what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches.

    jl: I don’t feel “limited” with “only” the bible.

    GB: So you don’t buy into that “sola scriptura” BS?

    jl: If you studied it in depth you would see that there is a beauty and completeness within it and like someone else said to you – scripture proves scripture. Nothing contradicts.

    GB: And since you don’t know me, how could you know that I haven’t studied it in depth. I dare say that I have posted more Bible scripture in support of my positions than anyone here. And I do find that there is a beauty and spirit that uplifts and inspires and doesn’t contradict with anything I believe.

    However, I do find a very large conflict with what it plainly and clearly teaches and what you guys claim is doctrine. Would you believe it if I showed it to you?

    jl: Your belief system has changed radically over the years in major doctrines . . .

    GB: A false statement to be sure. And unsupported too. I suspect that you get your information from those oh so UNRELIABLE anti-mormon sources.

    jl: – that does not ring true to the God who is “the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow”.

    GB: A faulty conclusion based on a false premise. I have noticed that anti-mormons ALWAYS use a double standard when comparing things LDS with things not LDS. There are very few anti-mormon claims that I haven’t seen before and also seen them deconstructed and addressed. And like I said, there ALWAYS is a double standard in play.

    jl: Do you not see that this is Jesus?

    GB: Well, Duh, it obviously is Jesus, but you still haven’t addressed 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, and Rom 12:1

    jl: How the writer is clearly stating that our sacrifices do not satisfy the Lord – that only the blood of Christ does.

    GB: Your logic is flawed. As I have stated before it is the animal blood sacrifices that don’t please the Lord. There are other “spiritual” sacrifices that we make that please Him greatly. See 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, and Rom 12:1.

    So you are incorrect – it is only talking about the animal blood sacrifice that aren’t pleasing.

    jl: – if that were true why would Christ’s name be mentioned?

    GB: So you are still side-stepping 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, and Rom 12:1.

    jl: I’m not sure why you think the Holy Spirit is not involved in what I said.

    GB: That is easy, because it isn’t.

    jl: Of course He is . . .

    GB: Of course He isn’t.

    jl: Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are one.

    GB: True, and so are my wife and I, we like them are just not one being.

    jl: You seem to take an angry pleasure in trying to make us all appear lyers and false people.

    GB: Do you mean when I just point out where you have used deceptive language? Or where you make claims that you can’t back up? Or when I point out where our statements are misrepresented? Or when I point out where you have twisted scripture to force a meaning that isn’t there? Or is it something else that I have pointed out that bothers you?

    jl: Do you want what you believe to be true or do you want to know the truth? Ask yourself that question….

    GB: You should take your own advice. I would be glad to help you find the truth.

    jl: And note I am not being rude to you and saying “earth to..” like you did with me.

    GB: Is that because I am not so slow to see the obvious?

    jl: I know this stuff is difficult for you to wade thru.

    GB: Difficult? no. But I do get bored having to point out the obvious and addressing old worn out arguments.

    jl: You must have questions to be on this blog so regularly…

    GB: Is that why you are here? I am here simply defending the faith.

    So now could you address 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, and Rom 12:1?

  82. 82 GB
    July 7, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Echo: How do you know whether or not your interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit?

    GB: Have you ever asked yourself that question? Once you have experienced the witness of the Holy Spirit there is no doubt about it. It speaks to both your heart and your mind and gives you pure knowledge and fills you with peace and love for all mankind.

    It is unfortunate that sites like this drive it away.

  83. 83 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    GB said:
    ========

    I have noticed that EV’s who post here are not that calm, get angry, use strawman arguments and red herrings, and personally attack me, that speaks volumes to me.

    Echo:
    =====

    What speaks volumes is your SIN. You treat people with contempt and disrespect and then blame us as personally attacking you by pointing out your sins in order to lead you to repentance.

    God commands us NOT to treat people with contempt and disrespect, you have disobeyed what he has commanded.

    God commands us to point out such sin in order to lead you to repentance, we have obeyed what he has commanded.

    GB, when someone truly loves God, they want to obey his commandments. If someone refuses or resists a rebuke for their sins, they show that they do not want to obey his commandments.

    Psalm 141:5 “Let a righteous man strike me—it is a kindness; let him rebuke me—it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it.”

    Prov 21:7 “The violence of the wicked will drag them away, for they refuse to do what is right”

    GB, nobody here is angry with you at all. As I said, I would like to be your friend. We are just trying to open your eyes to the fact that it is impossible for you to live up to the teachings that you believe in and to be your own Savior. The truth about you is plain to us because of your sins, therefore it is even more plain to God:

    Romans 2:23-24 “You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    We tell you this for your good, in order to bring you to the end of yourself and your thinking that you can be your own Savior and into a new and lasting hope in Jesus as your Savior.

    Romans 3:9-20

    “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”
    “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”
    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
    “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    ruin and misery mark their ways,
    and the way of peace they do not know.”
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATEVER THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT EVERY MOUTH MY BE SILENCED AND THE WHOLE WORLD HELD ACCOUTABLE TO GOD. THEREFORE NO ONE WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN HIS SIGHT BY OBSERVING THE LAW: RATHER, THROUGH THE LAW WE BECOME CONSCIOUS OF SIN.”

  84. 84 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    GB said:
    =======

    E: How do you know whether or not your interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit?

    GB: Have you ever asked yourself that question? Once you have experienced the witness of the Holy Spirit there is no doubt about it. It speaks to both your heart and your mind and gives you pure knowledge and fills you with peace and love for all mankind.

    It is unfortunate that sites like this drive it away.

    Echo:
    =====

    You said that it fills you with peace and love for all mankind. Your words to us in our conversations together contradict this statement you made. A person who has love for all mankind doesn’t treat them with contempt and disrespect.

    How do you know that the Spirit that is leading you is not an evil Spirit such as that of a demon?

  85. July 7, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Say whatever you want about GB personally. His use of the Bible has been pretty good.

    And I do see a few Evangelicals here trying to side-step a lot of the scripture he is bringing up.

    Either start swimming, or get out of the pool.

  86. 86 ADB
    July 7, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    Seth,

    I can’t speak for anyone else that posts here, but as far as “side-stepping” Scripture, I’m not sure I see it that way. It seems to me that any sort of response to GB’s Scripture is virtually always met with, “Nice strawman” or “red herring” or “false assumption” or “false conclusion based on false premises.” Any suggestions as to how to deal with that?

    I’ll gladly dialogue and respond with anyone on the basis of Scripture, assuming they actually ask questions/point to Scripture because they’re genuinely interested in the Christian response. Clearly, GB is not.

  87. 87 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Seth,

    Thank you for the advice. I will try to be more alert to that and respond the way you are requesting. Your right, we don’t want to sidestep any scripture that is brought up. But sometimes it’s better to discuss one scripture at a time and then go on to the next one once that discussion is finished. But we can try it your way.
    If we fail again, perhaps give us a reminder with a reference to the scripture we didn’t address.

    Please accept my apologies.

  88. July 7, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    On the personal gripes area – I’m not taking sides on who is being more polite, more defensive, or more combative here. I’m just interested in how the scriptures raised play out.

  89. 89 JesusLover
    July 7, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    GB – ALL of us are sinners – everyone of us on this board and everyone on the planet – the bible says “For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)So calling someone a sinner is not intended as or is an insult – it’s a fact of life. It is not a comment on what sins you commit – of course none of us know what any of us do. We say “sinner” as defined by the verse from Romans I wrote up above.

    You wrote:

    JL: . . . the writer is not only talking about OT blood sacrifices but the things we do to try and earn God’s forgiveness and perfection.

    GB: You are reading things into it that aren’t there. The author is specifically talking about the animal blood sacrifices, NOTHING more.

    JL: Vs. 11 and 12 contrasts someone trying to please God with sacrifices with the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

    GB: You are reading things into it that aren’t there. The author is specifically talking about the animal blood sacrifices, NOTHING more.

    Sacrifices are still required, but they are not blood sacrifices but spiritual sacrifices. See 1 Pet 2:5, Heb 13:15-16,21, Rom 12:1.

    I would respectfully say to you – that you are wrong – those verses very much are speaking about the OT practice of animal sacrifice and Christ’s sacrifice later. That you choose not to believe that is your choice – but you are incorrect. Many, many sections in the OT prophecy about the Lamb (Jesus) that was to come and that passage is speaking further on Christ as our ultimate sacrifice for sin. God required blood sacrifice in the OT – this passage talks about Jesus’ blood being the sacrifice for ALL our sins.

    1 Peter 2:2-9 – because your one verse doesn’t prove anything or really say the same thing as the passage I initially quoted and I am really glad that you chose this verse:

    2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

    5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

    8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    This passage that contains the verse you quoted is talking about new baby Christians and tells us how to grow spiritually. It talks about praising God because He called us out of darkness. No where in this passage is the write talking about spiritual sacrifices earning out salvation. It’s all about praise because of what God has done for us. NOTHING we do EARNS us salvation – it’s all about doing things to please God because we love Him. As to getting us salvation (on our own efforts) they are worth nothing: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

    Too – NO ONE on this board has told you that repenting is not necessary for salvation – yes you have to repent and ask forgiveness for your sins but you are not earning your salvation – you are acknowledging that you are a sinner – asking God’s forgiveness – and making Him your Lord.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    …Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

    ..the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:7)

    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

    I will talk about the other verses you asked me about but I would like to do it one at a time and get your response to this post. Note the first time I posted to this discussion that I said I was talking about “parrellel truths” – meaning – we give praise and sacrifices to God just as all those verses you quoted say – yes they please GOd because we are doing it out of obedience and love and yes we are to do good deeds – many, many Christians have said that in many of Mark’s posts – the difference is – mormons believe that after all they can do – God does the rest. Christians believe God does it all and the bible verses I put up above state this clearly.

  90. 90 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    Seth,

    Fair enough, so let me know when you think I havn’t addressed a certain scripture and I will address it. If there are any that you can think of right now that I havn’t addressed in the past, by all means let me know. I would be glad to address them for you.

  91. 91 GB
    July 7, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    jl,
    Lets be clear, because apparently there is some confusion.

    When you said “. . . the writer is not only talking about OT blood sacrifices but the things we do to try and earn God’s forgiveness and perfection.”

    and “. . . Vs. 11 and 12 contrasts someone trying to please God with sacrifices. . .”

    You are WRONG!!! You are reading things into it that aren’t there. The author is specifically talking about the animal blood sacrifices, NOTHING more.

    Now if you want to try and say that I was referring to “the perfect sacrifice of Christ” with that statement, then go right ahead, even though it IS OBVIOUS that I wasn’t referring to the sacrifice of Christ but to the rest of your statement.

    jl: This passage that contains the verse you quoted is talking about new baby Christians and tells us how to grow spiritually.

    GB: Is that not important to our salvation?

    jl: No where in this passage is the write talking about spiritual sacrifices earning out salvation.

    GB: You claim that they are for our spiritual growth (and I agree. IF they affect our spiritual growth THEN THEY ARE IMPORTANT FOR OUR SALVATION! Without spiritual growth we will loose our salvation.

    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    This verse CLEARLY and PLAINLY show that we are to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. You claim that these spiritual sacrifices have nothing to do with our salvation (without any evidence I might add) however these sacrifices are important enough to our spiritual growth and therefore salvation, for Peter to mention them. Unlike you guys I don’t look for excuses for such sacrifices to be unimportant (by twisting the words of Paul), I take Peter’s word for it that they are important.

    jl: NOTHING we do EARNS us salvation

    GB: On this we can agree.

    jl: it’s all about doing things to please God because we love Him.

    GB: On this we can agree.

    jl: As to getting us salvation (on our own efforts) they are worth nothing:

    GB: On this I would have to STRONGLY disagree, for Jesus plainly and clearly taught that obedience to the commandments resulted in eternal life. Need I post the scriptures again?

    jl: But we are all as an unclean thing,

    jl: . . . and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

    GB: I think the words of Jesus have preeminence to your interpretation here. According to Jesus Matt. 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. See verses 31-46 for full context.

    Isaiah ALSO taught that REPENTANCE brings FORGIVENESS, see Isa 1:16-20. You can NOT forget this in understanding the verse you quote.

    jl: Too – NO ONE on this board has told you that repenting is not necessary for salvation

    GB: So then you agree with me that repentance is necessary for forgiveness and salvation?

    jl: yes you have to repent and ask forgiveness for your sins but you are not earning your salvation

    GB: How many times does it have to be said? Eternal life is a GIFT!!!! It is given to the obedient and withheld from the disobedient. It is NOT earned in the technical since that it is due us for you obedience. It is PROMISED to the obedient, so in a sense by being obedient we earn the promise of eternal life NOT eternal life itself. Eternal life is beyond our ability to EARN on our own. It is a GIFT!!!

    jl: you are acknowledging that you are a sinner – asking God’s forgiveness – and making Him your Lord.

    GB: My relationship with God is between Him and me. You are making assumptions about me that you know NOTHING about. What makes you think that you know that those things have not been done?

    jl: yes they please GOd because we are doing it out of obedience and love and yes we are to do good deeds

    GB: And we know what Jesus said about those that obey His commandments, don’t we! I hope I don’t have to post that again.

    jl: mormons believe that after all they can do – God does the rest.

    GB: Just taking God at His word. He tells us if we keep His commandments He will give us eternal life. That is good enough for me.

    jl: Christians believe God does it all and the bible verses I put up above state this clearly.

    GB: Well lets see. Catholics don’t believe that! And Greek Orthodox don’t believe that. And Mormons don’t believe that. Clearly you are not speaking about what ALL Christians believe nor even MOST Christians.

    And as I have said many times, if you would put the clear and plain words of Jesus in preeminence as the Bible demands, instead of the words of Paul, then you would end up agreeing with Mormon doctrine a LOT more than you currently do.

    With that being said, I think I will have to re post the clear and plain words of Jesus.

    Matt. 19: 17
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 12: 50
    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Rev. 22: 14
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Do you believe Jesus when He says things like that?

  92. 92 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    GB,

    Could you respond to post 84?

    Hebrews 1:1-4 ” (1)The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (2) If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. (3) But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, (4) because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

    What is your interpretation of verse 2?

  93. 93 JesusLover
    July 7, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    GB – read Hebrews 10:11,12 again:

    11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Verse 11 is talking about the OT sacrifices that the priests made in the temples – those sacrifices the writer is saying can “never take away sins”.

    now read verse 12:

    12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    “this man” is Christ. How do I know that? Because the writer states that he offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, THEN sat down on the right hand of God. ONLY Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. No one else. Luke 22: 69 – Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. and Col. 3:1 – If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    Saying that ANY of our own efforts can save us are akin to thinking that OT blood sacrifices can save us. All commentaries that I have link this passage to this subject. No passage in the bible is “stand alone” – they are intricately woven together and makes themes and truths together. You can’t just pick out one verse and decide this is what it means.

    **********************************

    You wrote:

    This verse CLEARLY and PLAINLY show that we are to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. You claim that these spiritual sacrifices have nothing to do with our salvation (without any evidence I might add)READ THE VERSES THAT I GAVE YOU THAT IS EVIDENCE!!!

    however these sacrifices are important enough to our spiritual growth and therefore salvation, for Peter to mention them. Unlike you guys I don’t look for excuses for such sacrifices to be unimportant (by twisting the words of Paul), I take Peter’s word for it that they are important.

    I do not say that sacrifices are unimportant – they are evidence of the depth of love we have for God – either you are not seeing what I and others write clearly because you are so busy preparing a rebutal against the false believers or you really don’t see because what you wrote in this paragraph – neither I nor anyone else on this post have said.
    NO – salvation comes from God and is done by God alone – we believe He died on the cross for our sins – we repent of those sins and turn from them and accept Him into our heart. We spend the rest of our lives showing our gratitude to God by doing good works and loving others as He has loved us. NOT keeping a bunch of rules hoping to earn a place in heaven. There is only one place in heaven – eternity with Christ and thru his loving sacrifice on the cross – I will be there with Him. THAT is why this blog exists and people post – they want you and others to see this and join them – no one is calling names – they are speaking truth in love.

    jl: NOTHING we do EARNS us salvation

    GB: On this we can agree.

    No we don’t. You have placed your good works and sacrifices on the same level as Christ’s death on the cross and in doing so have reduced Christ to less than He is entitled to. How? Because you are taking credit for something only God can do.

    *****************************************

    GB: Just taking God at His word. He tells us if we keep His commandments He will give us eternal life. That is good enough for me.

    One of those commandments is “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved”.

    *****************************************

    You have an unpleasant mocking tone to your postings. I do not sense any Godly love for any of us that are not mormons. You said you are “here to defend the faith”. We are here to lovingly show you that your beliefs are in error and lead you to the true and living Christ so that you do not spend eternity in what you would call Outer Darkness – which you surely will if you persist in your mormon beliefs. You may call me all the names in the book but love for your soul is the only reason that makes me take time out of a busy life to engage in discussion with you. Not to win. Not to prove you wrong. But to lead you to Truth in Christ. I don’t however sense that you are open to anything but your own beliefs and that makes me sad…

  94. 94 JesusLover
    July 7, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    GB – you said:

    “And as I have said many times, if you would put the clear and plain words of Jesus in preeminence as the Bible demands, instead of the words of Paul, then you would end up agreeing with Mormon doctrine a LOT more than you currently do.”

    You can’t pick and choose only what suits your beliefs – the WHOLE bible is true and important – no section more than the other because they all fit together to show God’s amazing love to us. If you start from this premise and lead on to the bible being perfect and as a perfect God wanted us to read it then you have to study and reconcile difficult verses that to the mortal mind don’t appear to go together – to pray and ask God to help us understand.

    I remember a sad evening when my mormon friend said that every doctrine from the LDS church could be proven from the bible – he had been taught this – and how sad when he tried to find several things and they just weren’t there.

  95. July 7, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    JL,

    Hold on there. Let’s be clear about burden of proof here.

    It is not necessary or even desirable for a Mormon to “prove” all Mormon doctrines from the Bible.

    We believe in continuing revelation and a Bible that is not the complete and final word from God to his children. Given this stance, it would make absolutely no sense for ANY Mormon to claim that all our doctrines and practices are contained by and established by the Bible. In this sense, your Mormon friend was quite mistaken. Sad that he allowed personal pride and agenda to blind him to the truth of the Restored Gospel.

    All a Mormon has to do is show that Mormon doctrines or practices are not contradicted by the Bible in any meaningful sense. After that, modern revelation is free to work its magic.

    Let me repeat this – I don’t have to show the Bible demands a particular Mormon doctrine. All I have to show is that there is no contradiction. Much easier standard to meet.

  96. 96 JesusLover
    July 7, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    Seth – I was just citing my friend’s experience not necessarily all mormons.

    All mormon doctrines are contradicted by the bible, Seth. The words are the same but the meanings ascribed to them by mormons and Christians are completely different. We don’t even believe in the same Jesus as you do.

  97. July 7, 2009 at 10:21 pm

    Second point, Mormon doctrine doesn’t believe that we “earn” salvation on merit either.

    The works that LDS teachings advocate are the outward sign of an inward covenant. But they have nothing to do with some merit system.

    In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin gives a key address to the people that is studied and emphasized a great deal in Mormon study guides. He made it clear that we are less than the dust. We are infinitely and eternally indebted to our Father in heaven. And any time any of us does something good, God immediately blesses us for it and thus we remain just as much in debt to him as we ever were. Thus we never, EVER even start to pay off the balance of our debt to Heavenly Father.

    This is core Mormon doctrine.

    We do not merit salvation. Our works may count toward “mansions in heaven” – as Jesus stated clearly. But they have nothing to do with earning salvation. Getting into heaven is not accomplished by works any more than bodily resurrection is. But once you are IN heaven, works (including ordinances) can and do matter. Which is both consistent with the LDS doctrine of multiple degrees of glory, and consistent with Jesus’ own earthly declaration that in heaven there are “many mansions.”

  98. July 7, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    “All mormon doctrines are contradicted by the bible, Seth.”

    ALL JL?

    Dang, I guess I should start lying and stealing now – since it’s obviously contradicted by the Bible. Thanks for the tip.

  99. 99 GB
    July 7, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    jl: GB – read Hebrews 10:11,12 again: . . . blah blah blah . . . the right hand of God.

    GB: I don’t understand why you are wasting time and effort posting stuff that I agree with.

    jl: Saying that ANY of our own efforts can save us are akin to thinking that OT blood sacrifices can save us.

    GB: No, not really! It was known from the beginning that the blood sacrifices were a similitude of the sacrifice of Christ and would end with the ultimate blood sacrifice. But that doesn’t mean that we are helpless with regard to our own salvation. I find it humorous that you guys continually say that we can do NOTHING for our salvation and then you tell me I need to change to be saved. So which is it?

    jl: All commentaries that I have link this passage to this subject. No passage in the bible is “stand alone” – they are intricately woven together and makes themes and truths together. You can’t just pick out one verse and decide this is what it means.

    GB: Then why do you guys to exactly that? You totally disregard the clear and plain teachings of Jesus and put in preeminence your twisted understanding of a few verses of Paul. Even Paul disagrees with your interpretation of Paul.

    jl: I do not say that sacrifices are unimportant – they are evidence of the depth of love we have for God – either you are not seeing what I and others write clearly because you are so busy preparing a rebutal against the false believers or you really don’t see because what you wrote in this paragraph – neither I nor anyone else on this post have said.

    GB: If they have no affect on our salvation then in the overall scheme of things they are unimportant. Paul had no patience for frivolous activities (think circumcision). Yet he clearly taught the need for sacrifices. More prima facie evidence that sacrifices are necessary.

    jl: NO – salvation comes from God and is done by God alone

    GB: I am still waiting for the verse that says that. If it is God alone who does the saving then why are you guys telling me I need to change to affect my salvation. Your actions are inconsistent with your words. IF God alone does it, then why do you waste your time preaching to anyone else? Or does God need your help in saving other?

    jl: – we believe He died on the cross for our sins – we repent of those sins and turn from them and accept Him into our heart.

    GB: That is a good start.

    jl: We spend the rest of our lives showing our gratitude to God by doing good works and loving others as He has loved us.

    GB: Keep it up and you will do fine.

    jl: NOT keeping a bunch of rules hoping to earn a place in heaven.

    GB: That is good because you can’t earn your place in heaven. It is a gift to the obedient. So there is reason to obey God, because then He will give you the gift of eternal life. As our beloved Paul so eloquently taught.

    Romans 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    jl: There is only one place in heaven –

    GB: Well, Jesus said (John 14:2) “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”

    Sound like more than one place to me.

    And how about this one. 2 Cor. 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    If there is a third heaven, that certainly implies that there is a first and second one as well.

    jl: eternity with Christ and thru his loving sacrifice on the cross – I will be there with Him.
    THAT is why this blog exists and people post – they want you and others to see this and join them – no one is calling names – they are speaking truth in love.

    GB: So again your position is inconsistent. If God “alone” does it all then there is nothing I can do about it and you guys are wasting all of our time. Now if you need to help Him then He doesn’t do it all “alone” and your whole doctrine flies out the window. Swish!!!!

    jl: You have an unpleasant mocking tone to your postings.

    GB: Really? Well there is PLENTY of that going around. In fact I would say that this whole blog oozes with it. Wouldn’t you?

    jl: I do not sense any Godly love for any of us that are not mormons.

    GB: Gee, you guys mock our beliefs, misrepresent our beliefs and nit pick about any thing you can find and then when we respond you don’t feel love? I am shocked.

    jl: You said you are “here to defend the faith”. We are here to lovingly show you that your beliefs are in error and lead you to the true and living Christ so that you do not spend eternity in what you would call Outer Darkness – which you surely will if you persist in your mormon beliefs.

    GB: So again you expose an inconsistency in you doctrine. First you say that God alone is responsible for my salvation and then you say I need to change my beliefs. If I have to so something then it isn’t God “alone” and your doctrine is false. So which is it?

    jl: You may call me all the names in the book but love for your soul is the only reason that makes me take time out of a busy life to engage in discussion with you.

    GB: Now why would I call you names?

    jl: Not to win.

    GB: That’s good because you can’t.

    jl: Not to prove you wrong.

    GB: That’s good because you can’t.

    jl: But to lead you to Truth in Christ.

    GB: Already found it thank you. Just trying to defend it.

    jl: I don’t however sense that you are open to anything but your own beliefs and that makes me sad…

    GB: WOW!!! you took the words right out of my mouth. :-)

    Well that is all I have time for today.

  100. 100 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 11:23 pm

    Seth, I realize that you believe you don’t earn your salvation on merit, but from our perspective, if there are conditions to meet in order to gain eternal life, then keeping those conditions is what merits salvation, at least in part.

    Correct me if I am wrong but one of the conditions are that you must obey all the commandments.

    Even though I desire to obey all the commandments, I would be lying if I were to say that I obey all the commandments.

    Do you obey all of the commandments?

  101. 101 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 11:25 pm

    GB

    You failed to respond to this post and post 84:

    GB,

    Could you respond to post 84?

    Hebrews 1:1-4 ” (1)The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (2) If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. (3) But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, (4) because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

    What is your interpretation of verse 2?

  102. July 7, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    Mormon doctrine holds that it is impossible to keep all the commandments. Thus the need for repentance (facilitated by weekly participation in the Sacrament). Not just a one-time “alter-call,” but on a constant ongoing basis.

    I do not obey all the commandments. Since the last time I took the Sacrament was last Sunday, I’m due for another round of repentance.

  103. 103 Echo
    July 7, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    Seth,

    So what is the effect or outcome of the Sacrament? What does it do or what does it mean to you?

    Do you believe a person must be 100% forgiven to gain eternal life?

  104. 104 ADB
    July 7, 2009 at 11:57 pm

    Seth,

    Is “weekly participation in the Sacrament” the only means by which the LDS make good on repentance? I only ask because you say (somewhat tongue in cheek, I assume) that you are “due for another round,” but I’m wondering what happens in the meantime? What happens if you don’t make it to the Sacrament this week?

  105. July 8, 2009 at 12:02 am

    The Sacrament is an outward symbol of an inward commitment to renew our baptismal covenants constantly (not in a legalistic each-week sense). The ordinance shows the mindset. A one-time altar-call isn’t good enough. Listening to an inspiring sermons and confessing Jesus once isn’t good enough. God is very much about your relationship with him NOW. 5 years ago doesn’t count. It’s old news – ancient history.

    When I take the Sacrament, it is a symbolic renewal of myself before God. Like at baptism, the “old man” is crucified with Christ and I emerge from the water new and fresh. In that moment, I am clean.

    But you don’t have to simply take the actual ordinance of sacrament to experience this. It is available to all who repent.

    And a person must be 100% forgiven to obtain eternal life. The Restored Gospel offers a practical and completely feasible way of obtaining such forgiveness.

    No “earning” involved.

  106. July 8, 2009 at 12:06 am

    It was tongue-in-cheek.

    Dying on a Friday doesn’t mean you’re screwed. Like I said – outward symbol of an inward covenant.

  107. 107 Echo
    July 8, 2009 at 12:38 am

    If a person must be 100% forgiven to obtain eternal life and forgiveness isn’t granted to those who havn’t overcome 100% of their sins, how can anyone obtain eternal life?

    What about GB? GB seems to continue on in sin despite it being pointed out. According to Mormonism, what hope does GB have of gaining eternal life when GB doesn’t even make an attempt to overcome his sins and isn’t even sorry for them? What does the LDS teach about unrepentance and willful sinning like that?

  108. July 8, 2009 at 12:40 am

    Who said anything about “overcoming?”

    I didn’t.

    When you repent, the sin is overcome. Not by your power, but by the power of Christ – upon whom you call in repentance.

  109. 109 Echo
    July 8, 2009 at 12:49 am

    Doesn’t LDS repentance mean to overcome? I got that from http://www.lds.org

  110. July 8, 2009 at 12:58 am

    Sure, but who is doing the overcoming?

    The answer is both. But let’s not pretend that Mormon doctrine gives the repentant sinner anything to boast about.

    Just for your gee-wiz collection here is what you get when you type in the word “repentance” on that link you provided:

    “Repentance is one of the first principles of the gospel and is essential to our temporal and eternal happiness. It is much more than just acknowledging wrongdoings. It is a change of mind and heart that gives us a fresh view about God, about ourselves, and about the world. It includes turning away from sin and turning to God for forgiveness. It is motivated by love for God and the sincere desire to obey His commandments.”

    I don’t see why any Evangelical should have any beef with that statement.

  111. 111 Echo
    July 8, 2009 at 2:28 am

    Under the word “repentance” at LDS.org there is a section that says: “Additional information”, there it says:

    Elements of Repentance (I am listing one of them only):

    “Abandonment of Sin. Although confession is an essential element of repentance, it is not enough. The Lord has said, “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43).”

    How is it possible to be 100% forgiven then since none of us will ever completely overcome all sin which means (according to the above definition) that none of us are entirely 100%repentant?

    Romans 2:5 comes to mind:

    “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”

  112. July 8, 2009 at 3:03 am

    Abandonment of sin is one of the true fruits of repentance. It’s not something I do of myself because I’m a spiffy guy. It comes because Christ’s atonement ENABLES such abandonment. It enables a whole new life in the worshiper.

    I guess you could say its sort of like the Calvinist belief that good works will manifest in the lives of the truly saved. But only sort-of. Mormonism holds that choosing Jesus is something you do freely, whereas Calvinism holds that it’s something you’re coerced into doing by God. Likewise with not choosing Jesus.

    And it is never too late to start repenting and letting Christ’s Atonement work in your life.

  113. 113 Echo
    July 8, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    I asked this before but I am unsure what your answer really is:

    Is it possible to be 100% forgiven without overcoming 100% of our sin?

  114. July 8, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    You’re still trying to shoehorn this into your own prejudices about Mormons.

    But no. Repentance and forgiveness are for the sick, not the whole. Overcoming sin is a benefit of repentance. It is not the initial act of repentance.

  115. 115 ADB
    July 8, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Seth,

    What’s the LDS take on Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

    Did that repentance/baptism about which Peter spoke bring about only a partial forgiveness? Was he charging his hearers to repent and be baptized continually so that the forgiveness would be ongoing?

  116. July 8, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Peter’s statements talk about a one-time event. To renew those covenants and renew that relationship with Christ, you must take the Sacrament.

  117. 117 ADB
    July 8, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    So is it your understanding that the forgiveness one receives in repentance and/or baptism is limited? If so, on what basis do you conclude that it is limited?

  118. July 8, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    No, it’s absolute – IN THAT MOMENT.

    But it is always possible for a free being to fall from grace. This is why the covenant must be renewed.

    Therefore, I don’t think Evangelicals have any right to rest on their laurels.

  119. 119 ADB
    July 8, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    I agree that it’s always possible for a free being to fall from grace, and that Evangelicals or other Christians have no right to rest on their laurels (though I would posit that Christians don’t rest on their laurels, but rather on the laurels of Christ for us), but I could use some help in understanding better your point.

    My understanding of “No, it’s absolute – in that moment” means that forgiveness is limited. It implies that there are moments where that forgiveness is not absolute. That doesn’t seem to fall in line with my understanding of the message that Jesus or the apostles preached. The greater context of Scripture as a whole doesn’t seem to convey a message of a “limited” forgiveness.

    BTW, just as an FYI, I wouldn’t classify myself as an “evangelical” in the sense that you mean. I’m a part of the same church body to which Mark belongs.

  120. 120 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    E: How do you know that the Spirit that is leading you is not an evil Spirit such as that of a demon?

    GB: What does the Bible say on this subject?

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Now when these verses are properly understood they totally destroy the current understanding of the non-Mormon nature of Jesus. But rather than be accused of “side-stepping” the issue, I will keep to your question.

    The phrase “that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” is very important to the answer to this question. Notice the tense of the verb “is come”.

    From the Dictionary “is” is the “3rd person singular present indicative of ‘be'”.

    From the Dictionary “come” has multiple definitions but for this discussion I will use this one “to arrive by movement or in the course of progress”.

    The meaning of the phrase “that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” now is clear. Not only does it mean that a spirit from God will confess that Christ came in the flesh but a spirit from God will confess that Christ IS IN the flesh.

    Therefore any spirit that “confesses” that Christ doesn’t have flesh (and eternally so) is a spirit from antichrist.

    So Echo, there you have it. According to the Bible those spirits that teach that Christ not only came in the flesh but is also currently in the flesh (and eternally so) are from God.

    That and what I said previously about the fruits of the spirit being peace and love.

  121. 121 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    Echo,

    If you will look at my post #99 it will help address the verses in Heb you are asking about.

    I think you are referring to the second verse of Chapter 10 and not Chapter 1.

    Heb 10:1 For the law (of MOSES) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those (animal blood) sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    2 For then would they (the animal blood sacrifices) not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    3 But in those (animal blood) sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    The reason the animal blood sacrifices were needed every year was to keep the people in remembrance of the need to repent of their sins and look forward to the ultimate blood sacrifice of the Son of God that would take away sin.

    The annual animal blood sacrifices were replaced by the Lord Himself on the eve of the ultimate blood sacrifice with the sacrament (of the Lord’s supper).

    Seth has addressed the sacrament already.

  122. 122 JesusLover
    July 8, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    GB – you wrote: “The annual animal blood sacrifices were replaced by the Lord Himself on the eve of the ultimate blood sacrifice with the sacrament (of the Lord’s supper).”

    The last supper didn’t replace the blood sacrifices of the past – it was the SHED BLOOD of Jesus dying on the cross that did. Where do you find in the bible that it’s the last supper?

  123. 123 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 9:57 pm

    jl,

    There you go again misrepresenting what I said. Why do you guys keep doing that?

    I didn’t say it was the last supper that replaced the annual sacrifices, I said “The annual animal blood sacrifices were replaced by the Lord Himself on the eve of the ultimate blood sacrifice with the sacrament (of the Lord’s supper).”

    I am talking about the part where (Matt 26:26-28)Ӧ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
    27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    And we also have this.

    1 Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
    24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

    So annual animal blood sacrifices ended with the sacrifice of Christ and Christ implemented the sacrament on the eve of His sacrifice. Both are periodic, both have the purpose of reminding us of the need to repent of our sins and to keep us in remembrance of Christ. So what evidence do you have that the sacrament wasn’t the replacement for the animal sacrifice?

  124. 124 JesusLover
    July 8, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    GB Said: There you go again misrepresenting what I said. Why do you guys keep doing that?

    I didn’t say it was the last supper that replaced the annual sacrifices, I said “The annual animal blood sacrifices were replaced by the Lord Himself on the eve of the ultimate blood sacrifice with the sacrament (of the Lord’s supper).”

    “Us guys” aren’t misrepresenting anything. That statement wasn’t clearly written at all. We aren’t mind-readers ya know. ;^)

    And nothing was replaced until Christ’s blood was actually shed – He was foretelling it yes and showing the example of communion yes. The replacement didn’t happen on the eve of crucifiction – it happened after the act if you want to be accurate.

  125. 125 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    We also have this;
    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

  126. 126 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    jl,

    I do believe the Lord is able to replace what He initial implemented, when and where He wants. He is free to ignore whatever limitations you think you can place upon Him in this regard.

  127. 127 JesusLover
    July 8, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    GB – You will argue about anything! Unbelievable! Just because you don’t like that I am right! LOL!

    The bible is plain about when Jesus paid the price :
    John 19:16-30: “16Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

    17And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

    18Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

    19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    20This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

    21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

    22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

    23Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

    24They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

    25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

    26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

    27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

    29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

    30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. “

  128. 128 GB
    July 8, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    jl – You will argue about anything! Unbelievable! Just because you don’t like that I am right! LOL!

    We are not talking “about when Jesus paid the price”! We are talking about the implementation of the Sacrament and its replacement of animal sacrifice as the reminder of Christ and His sacrifice. You just won’t admit that the latter is not required to be related to the former.

    LOL!!

  129. 129 JesusLover
    July 8, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    GB – sorry! I didn’t see this sentence: “Both are periodic, both have the purpose of reminding us of the need to repent of our sins and to keep us in remembrance of Christ”. I misunderstood you.

  130. July 8, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    JL,

    Are you telling me you don’t believe in communion ordinances?

    That’s a rather neat modern theological innovation.

  131. 131 JesusLover
    July 8, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    SethR – not sure where you got that idea from….believers are commanded to take communion.

  132. July 9, 2009 at 12:00 am

    Why? What’s the point from your view?

  133. 133 GB
    July 9, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    jl,

    Apology accepted. And have a great day!!! :-)

  134. 134 Echo
    July 9, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    GB

    How does your view of how to tell whether or not a person is following the Spirit of God or of Satan help you to interpret scripture?

  135. 135 Echo
    July 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Seth,

    My apologies for being niave, but I still don’t quite understand your explanation and how that answers my question. Do you go through each and every week knowing that you have been forgiven for 100% of all your sins? Are you forgiven before or after overcoming sins? Tell me how forgiveness happens for you.

    You said you renew your baptismal covenant. What does that mean to you?

    You asked Jesuslover what his perspective of the Lord’s supper is, from the Lutheran perspective (which I sense Jesuslover isn’t), The Lord’s supper provides awesome comfort.
    What God is doing for us in the Lord’s supper is comforting us and assuring us of forgiveness, life and salvation.

  136. 136 JesusLover
    July 9, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Echo – actually I am girl. Do I post like a guy? :^)

    To me there is only one reason to participate in the Lord’s supper and that is obedience to Christ when He says in 1 Cor. 11 :”23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

    24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

    25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

    26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.”

    I have taken communion in a variety of services over the years but what I feel fits Christ’s meaning best occurs in the services where the pastor first asks that we bow our head for silent prayer – to examine if we have anything against a brother or sister, if we do we make amends and ask forgiveness to them and God THEN we can take communion. When we do – we eat the bread and I think about Christ’s body being beaten and tortured and bleeding on the cross for me – me. For all my sins and it reminds me that every sin that I commit knowingly makes light of that sacrifice He made for me. When I drink the juice – I further think of that blood and how it poured out to wash me white as snow and how in gratitude I need to give every aspect of my life back to him in thanks and praise. It’s a quiet time of reflection and love to the Lord.
    Other services with a long sermon before that talk “about” God rather than point to a more personal time with him over the cup and bread do not speak to me as deeply as this.

    This is not in any way an argument with what anyone else has posted and I’m not going to analyse or be analysed in what people think communion is for. I read that Jesus told us to remember Him when we eat and drink and so that is what I do which of course impacts personally and is a reminder of His great love to me.

  137. 137 Echo
    July 9, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Jesuslover said: “actually I am a girl. Do I post like a guy?”

    My apologies!

  138. 138 Echo
    July 9, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Just a note: when I say “you” I just mean anyone in general, not “you” in particular.

  139. July 9, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    The baptismal ordinance washes a person clean in a symbolic sense. It represents a new birth.

    The process is renewed and repeated each Sunday by participation in the Sacrament. So yes, it is a symbol of a total and complete forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

    Now, what assurance do I personally have?

    I don’t know. I don’t personally care for 100% guarantees. I’m never completely certain I’m not somehow rebelling against God and whether I’ve totally repented. Or whether I’m taking the Sacrament worthily.

    But adventure is the spice of life. And I get a great deal of joy out of my participation and daily schooling in the process of forgiveness.

    But 100% guarantees?

    No. That would only be possible if we were all machines.

  140. 140 JesusLover
    July 9, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Echo – no apology neccesary. I think it’s funny. :^)

  141. 141 GB
    July 9, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    E: How does your view of how to tell whether or not a person is following the Spirit of God or of Satan help you to interpret scripture?

    GB: I am not sure I understand your question. I am not sure, how whether someone else is following the Spirit or not, influences how the Spirit helps me to interpret/understand scripture.

    Maybe if you elaborated a little, it would be helpful.

  142. 142 Echo
    July 13, 2009 at 2:37 am

    Seth

    You said: “I’m never completely certain I’m not somehow rebelling against God and whether I’ve totally repented. Or whether I’m taking the Sacrament worthily.”

    Your honesty is admirable. Whenever any of us have those kinds of thoughts it robs us of the Peace that God wants us to have. When we have no peace, we can turn to the “Gospel of Peace” (Eph 6:15) and have our hearts set at ease. The Gospel of Peace wherein all our uncertainties are erased and replaced with perfect peace because of the certainty that all our sins have been forgiven.

  143. 143 Echo
    July 13, 2009 at 2:41 am

    GB,

    I guess what I was trying to ask you is how you would you know whether or not the interpretation that you have of the scripture, that you say is given to you through the Holy Spirit, really is the Holy Spirit?

  144. 144 GB
    July 13, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Echo,
    The fruits of the Spirit are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” (see Gal 5:22-23).

    Also see post #120 above. (And if you would like, I can show even more Biblical verses that show plainly and clearly that Jesus IS in the flesh and eternally so.)

    Also, we have this description of the what the witness of the Spirit is like.
    Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (See verses 13-35 for full context.)

    Now they OBVIOUSLY weren’t describing “heart burn” or acid reflux, but the peaceful purifying fire of the Holy Ghost that enlightens the heart and mind.

  145. 145 Echo
    July 13, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    So you know it’s the right interpretation when it “feels good”?

  146. 146 GB
    July 13, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Echo,

    Like a lot of things in this life, it is very difficult to describe something to someone else that hasn’t experienced it or has no frame of reference.

    Could you describe the taste of salt to someone who has never tasted salt or anything like it?

    “feels good” is rather simplistic. Obviously the witness of the Spirit does “feel good”, but just because something “feels good” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is right or true.

  147. 147 JesusLover
    July 13, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    GB – you wrote: ““feels good” is rather simplistic. Obviously the witness of the Spirit does “feel good”, but just because something “feels good” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is right or true.”

    Ok then how do you tell if you are listening to the Holy Spirit or to satan? See…I don’t think you fully understand the question because you keep quoting bible verses about Jesus in the flesh and not really addressing the question.

    Yes Jesus CAME in the flesh but He is a spirit right now and seated at the righ-hand of God. That in no way answers the question about how you tell “who” the voice in your head is coming from. What if it’s a verse not related to Jesus in the flesh – how would you then tell where the voice was coming from? And the fruit of the spirit talks about what is manifest in true believers as evidence that they have the Holy Spirit – this isn’t about interpreting scripture.

    When you offer your opinion on what bible verses mean on thsi board and on other postings – how do you tell what spirit is speaking to you?

  148. 148 JesusLover
    July 13, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    GB – “what if” satan could produce the burning in your bosom and lead you to false beliefs? If all you have to go on is this physical feeling – you could be lead to believe anything.
    I know what it means to “get” something from God – the feeling inside – but NEVER does it contradict the Word of God – if it does – I know it’s from satan and I tell it to leave in the name of Jesus and it does.

  149. 149 GB
    July 13, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    jl,

    The fact that you deny the resurrection of Christ by your statement “but He is a spirit right now” tells me that you have been listening to the spirit of antichrist and your interpretation of scripture is very very suspect.

  150. 150 Echo
    July 13, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    GB said:

    ““feels good” is rather simplistic. Obviously the witness of the Spirit does “feel good”, but just because something “feels good” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is right or true.”

    Echo:

    When God speaks to someone, it doesn’t always “feel good”. The Bible is filled with examples of that.

    How do you tell if something is right or true? How can you be certain of it?

  151. 151 GB
    July 13, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    Echo,

    You really should provide scriptural examples/references to support your assertions so we can all know what you are specifically talking about.

    It is rather obvious that if the fruits of the Spirit are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” (see Gal 5:22-23), then the witness of the Spirit “feels good”.

    Unless of course you believe that “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” are NOT good feelings.

    The scriptures I have quoted are efforts of the authors to describe the witness of the Spirit. I am flattered that you would think that I could improve upon their descriptions, but I am afraid that (perhaps other than providing more scripture), I can’t improve upon what has already been written. :-)

  152. 152 JesusLover
    July 13, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    GB – you wrote: The fact that you deny the resurrection of Christ by your statement “but He is a spirit right now” tells me that you have been listening to the spirit of antichrist and your interpretation of scripture is very very suspect.

    I NEVER said I denied the bodily resurrection of Christ! NEVER! That is the whole point of His death and resurrection – to triumph over death once and for all! Man! do you distort what people say or what!
    Presently Jesus is a spirit as is the Holy Spirit and God the Father – how else could He be with us constantly – with all true believers – if He was in physical form and present also with God in heaven? Yes I know mormons teach differently from their own scriptures. That does not mean that He won’t once again come in a physical form because I believe He will when He comes back to Reign on earth for 1000 years as spoken of in the book of Revelation. Other Christians – am I right about the physical return of Christ? I just finished two nightshifts and I am not whippy enough to check on this for myself but I’ve always understood it this way.

  153. 153 JesusLover
    July 13, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    GB – you wrote: “It is rather obvious that if the fruits of the Spirit are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” (see Gal 5:22-23), then the witness of the Spirit “feels good”.

    Unless of course you believe that “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” are NOT good feelings.”

    This scripture is not referring to what we feel inside when we believe something to be true – it is strictly referring to the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. A “fruit” on a tree is the manifestation of what kind of tree it is ie. an apple grows on an apple tree.

    You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole, my friend, to prove your point. Read the whole passage: ” 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

    Once again – you can’t pick out a verse because it sounds good and use it to prove a point – this passage is speaking about the signs of a true believer NOT how to tell if the inner voice speaking to you is from God or satan – how do you arrive at that point from the above passage? I’d be intrigued to know your though process.

  154. 154 GB
    July 13, 2009 at 10:33 pm

    jl,

    Here is a clue for you. Unless you believe that Christ has a body of flesh then you are denying His resurrection. You have expressly implied that His spirit has left His body of flesh with the statement “but He is a spirit right now”. The body without the spirit is dead (See James 2:26), so then you are claiming that Jesus died a second time and therefore His “resurrection” was NOT a real resurrection after all, but only a temporary manifestation.

    This cause problems for you because Paul was very specific when he said (Rom 6:9) “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”

    So yes, those that don’t accept what the true Spirit of God teaches, which is that Christ IS come in the flesh is in league with antichrist.

    John puts it this way (Jn 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    I find NO WHERE in scripture where the statement “And the Word was made flesh” is negated.

    I notice that you didn’t (couldn’t) provide any scripture to support you position that Christ gave up His body of flesh (and died a second time). I respectfully request that you do so before we continue this exchange.

    jl: This scripture is not referring to what we feel inside when we believe something to be true – it is strictly referring to the outward manifestation of an inward transformation.

    GB: What a bunch of drivel!! It is obvious that you don’t know what you are talking about. The “inward transformation” of “love, joy, etc” aren’t good feelings on the inside but the “outward manifestation” ie. APPEARANCE? You are saying that if you put forth the appearance of having love, joy, etc rather than actually feeling it, is the fruit of the Spirit? Where do you get this stuff?

  155. 155 Echo
    July 13, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    GB,

    The fruits of the Spirit aren’t sensations or feelings that come as a result of something being true, the fruits of the Spirit are actions and attitudes that a Christian has towards all other people including their enemies.

    A person who is for example: disrespectful, comtemptuous, mocking and derogatory is not walking in the Spirit. Galations 5:21 “… those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God”

    Certainly the fruits of the Spirit listed in this verse could feel good. The Spirit however doesn’t always make us “feel good”:

    Jesus also tells us that the Spirit comes to convict us of the GUILT of our sin etc. (John 16:8 “When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: )

    Jesus, filled with the fruit of the Spirit said the following which undoubtedly didn’t leave “good feelings”:

    Mathew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”

    Mathew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are”

    The sword of the SPIRIT is the word of God (Eph 6:17), swords cause pain:

    Hebrews 4:12-14 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

    In any event, the fruit of the Spirit cannot be a guide for what is true and what is not true. Jesus taught that there are wolves among us in sheeps clothing. I have no doubt they can mimic the fruit of the Spirit. That is afterall what wolves in sheeps clothing do…they pretend to be sheep or they try to act like sheep.

    But you still havn’t answered my question. If you can’t explain it to me, how can you yourself know if it’s the Spirit of God or of demons? Who explained it to you? If you can’t explain it, how then did you learn? Are you sure their explanation to you was 100% true? What if they didn’t understand it that well and passed that along to you so that you now have a flawed idea of what it means? What if they really didn’t know the truth and passed that along to you? What if they decieved you, how would you know? How are you going to know for certain? Who is really interpreting scripture for you? How do you know that interpretation is the truth? How do you know you have not been decieved?

    Do you agree 100% with every LDS teaching and every LDS believer? If not, why not?

  156. 156 JesusLover
    July 13, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    GB – once again I’m feelin’ the love from you. :^)

    You wrote: “jl: This scripture is not referring to what we feel inside when we believe something to be true – it is strictly referring to the outward manifestation of an inward transformation.

    GB: What a bunch of drivel!! It is obvious that you don’t know what you are talking about. The “inward transformation” of “love, joy, etc” aren’t good feelings on the inside but the “outward manifestation” ie. APPEARANCE? You are saying that if you put forth the appearance of having love, joy, etc rather than actually feeling it, is the fruit of the Spirit? Where do you get this stuff?”

    Specifically: “APPEARANCE? You are saying that if you put forth the appearance of having love, joy, etc rather than actually feeling it, is the fruit of the Spirit? Where do you get this stuff?”

    Firstly – a “manifestation” isn’t an appearance – it’s a result of something happening inside of you.

    You also said “put forth the appearance” – the fruit of the spirit is NOT something that you can do yourself. It’s strictly something that God does within a believer as he/she walks closely to God. A by-product. Of course these things feel good inside – peace rather than anger always feels better inside for example. You put too much emphasis on “feelings” rather than “fact” and a “faith” in those facts. Going around in a cavalier manner basing everything on how you “feel” is a swift path to error.

    And I want you to answer Echo’s question about how you discern truth from error. You acuse us of side-stepping all the time and you are doing that very thing right now. And you continue to use alot of insulting and demeaning language in your posts. How is this manifesting the love of God in your life? Jesus would never use language like that to people – he pointed out error but he didn’t belittle.

  157. 157 GB
    July 14, 2009 at 12:06 am

    E:The fruits of the Spirit aren’t sensations or feelings that come as a result of something being true, . . .

    GB: Which is totally contradictory to the verse I posted earlier.

    Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    Clearly, as Christ taught them the TRUTH, from the scriptures, their “heart(s) burn(ed) within (them)”.

    Plus we have this statement by Christ “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:”

    Just how does the Holy Ghost do that if you don’t experience the “fruits of the Spirit” when hearing the truth? What other way does the Holy Ghost do it?

    And 1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Just how does the Holy Ghost do that if you don’t experience the “fruits of the Spirit” when hearing the truth? What other way does the Holy Ghost do it?

    And what does this verse mean? Philip. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    THAT certainly indicates that the fruits of the Spirit (the peace of God) is felt within the heart and mind.

    E: . . . the fruits of the Spirit are actions and attitudes that a Christian has towards all other people including their enemies.”
    . . .
    Jesus taught that there are wolves among us in sheeps clothing. I have no doubt they can mimic the fruit of the Spirit. That is afterall what wolves in sheeps clothing do…they pretend to be sheep or they try to act like sheep.

    GB: So what you are saying is that you can fake the fruits of the Spirit because they are only outward manifestations (televangelists anyone?). Then of what value are knowing what the fruits of the Spirit are, if they are only outward manifestations that can be easily faked?

    How then does the Holy Ghost manifest Himself to us personally, if it isn’t an internal manifestation to our heart and mind?

    How will the Lord put His laws into our hearts and minds (See Heb 8:10 & 10:16) if it isn’t an internal personal manifestation?

  158. 158 JesusLover
    July 14, 2009 at 12:20 am

    GB – my mormon friend gets angry when I use scripture because he says he doesn’t depend on scripture to prove his faith and he finds it annoying that I do so that is why I often don’t use it here – it’s a habit with him.You may say that he is wrong but he is a passionate mormon and that is how he “feels” about things so it must be correct for him, right? According to how you view feelings? I’ll try and remember to use scripture all the time here.

    You said: “Here is a clue for you. Unless you believe that Christ has a body of flesh then you are denying His resurrection. You have expressly implied that His spirit has left His body of flesh with the statement “but He is a spirit right now”. The body without the spirit is dead (See James 2:26), so then you are claiming that Jesus died a second time and therefore His “resurrection” was NOT a real resurrection after all, but only a temporary manifestation.”

    I find that you use a circular thought process rather than one of logic and reason so at times I cannot fathom how you get from A to B. We need to use our minds in our faith – this does not negate our faith – it’s just that the Christian faith is solid and true and nothing has ever proven any of it wrong. It’s why I don’t get angry with you – I know the bible is true and I am not threatened by anything you say to me. Tired at times yes but not threatened. :^)

    What I know from scripture is this:

    Jesus physically walked the earth and physically died on the cross and was dead for three days.”For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40).” “Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. And Christ became a human being and lived here on earth among us and was full of loving forgiveness and truth. John 1:1,14” .

    On the third day he arose and appeared to his followers: 1 Corinthians 15: “3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”

    And:

    1 Corinthians 15:17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Significantly if you read all four gospels you will find that Jesus appeared to women first.

    After Jesus walked on earth after his resurection the bible says the He ascended into heaven: “And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.” Luke 24:51

    “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.” Acts 1:9

    “Which leads to the question of just where is that body right now? How can a God who is omnipresent, not limited to space and matter, also have a body that is localized in a particular place? Is the body of Jesus floating somewhere in outer space? I don’t know. I don’t know how Jesus appeared behind locked doors, either, and I don’t know how he could ascend into the air, contrary to the law of gravity. Apparently the laws of physics don’t apply to the body of Jesus Christ. It’s still a body, but it doesn’t have limitations that we think are part of having a body.

    That still doesn’t answer the question of where the body is right now, but that’s really not the most important thing we need to worry about, is it? We need to know that Jesus is in heaven, but we do not need to know just where that is. It is more important for us to know about the spiritual body, the way in which Jesus is living on earth right now in the church. And he is doing that by means of the Holy Spirit.

    When Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, he was giving a visible sign that he continues to be human as well as divine. That gives us assurance that he is a high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses, as it says in Hebrews. So the visible rising into heaven makes this point: that Jesus didn’t just go away — he continues his ministry in a different way, as our high priest, our intercessor, our mediator.” (Michael Morrison). I just liked the way that he put this more than my own words could.

  159. 159 JesusLover
    July 14, 2009 at 12:33 am

    GB – you wrote: “Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    Clearly, as Christ taught them the TRUTH, from the scriptures, their “heart(s) burn(ed) within (them)”.

    Plus we have this statement by Christ “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:”

    Just how does the Holy Ghost do that if you don’t experience the “fruits of the Spirit” when hearing the truth? What other way does the Holy Ghost do it?”

    GB….dear GB…you don’t experience the fruit of the spirit when you hear truth. The fruit of the spirit is something that grows within you and is visable to others as you mature in Christ. There is simply no logical connection between the verses about the fruit of the spirit and about the heart burning within us.

    You wrote: “So what you are saying is that you can fake the fruits of the Spirit because they are only outward manifestations (televangelists anyone?). Then of what value are knowing what the fruits of the Spirit are, if they are only outward manifestations that can be easily faked?”

    You have to look at the overall person’s life and see if they live a consistant life of honour to God or they are just “sunday christians”. Do they have truth in all areas of their lives? Are they genuine? Christians are given and supposed to use discernment with people and situations – to some – their gifts of discernment are extremely strong and they have that deep impression within them that something is not of God. Perhaps the wording is slightly off from scripture. Sometimes it’s just an imperceptual thing about a person or what they say that lets one know that something is not from God or not what they seem to be. It’s difficult to descibe but the one thing I know – it NEVER contradicts the Word of God – also known as the bible.

    I think this answers your questions “How then does the Holy Ghost manifest Himself to us personally, if it isn’t an internal manifestation to our heart and mind? or at least addresses them:

    “How will the Lord put His laws into our hearts and minds (See Heb 8:10 & 10:16) if it isn’t an internal personal manifestation?”

  160. 160 Echo
    July 14, 2009 at 4:07 am

    GB, you can’t pick verses here and there to support your position when they have nothing to do with what we are talking about. You are taking scripture out of context.

    I can do what you are doing and take scripture verse out of context then use it to support the belief (false belief) that there “IS NO GOD” Watch:

    Psalm 14:1 “…There is no God…”
    Out of context!

    Where in the surrounding context of the fruits of the Spirit does the Bible say this is how we interpret scripture? Read the surrounding context. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about. This is talking about how a Christian should live his life. It has nothing to do with interpreting scripture.

    How does a Christian manifest the fruit of the Spirit? Just a couple of examples: When a person treats a Christian with comtempt(lack of respect accompanied by a feeling of intense dislike), the Christian will respond to that person with heartfelt respect accompanied by a feeling of intense love. When a person treats a Christian with contempt by using derogatory comments aimed at the Christian the Christian will reply with respectful comments and a heart filled with love for this person. Christians will respond to verbal abuse with love, kindness and self control etc. That Christian is producing the fruit of the Spirit.
    That has NOTHING to do with interpreting scripture.

    GB, you have NOT produced the fruit of the Spirit. If you read the surrounding context you will learn there that you have produced only the fruit of the sinful nature which “those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5:21 This is because you do not have the Spirit of God.

    So the fruit of the Spirit is a manifestation of living life as a loving Christian. It has NOTHING to do with interpreting scripture.

    GB said:
    =======

    E:The fruits of the Spirit aren’t sensations or feelings that come as a result of something being true, . . .

    GB: Which is totally contradictory to the verse I posted earlier.

    Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    Echo:
    =====

    Luke 24:32 – See also Psalm 39:2-3 where the “burning” isn’t always pleasant and in fact is reffered to as “scourging:

    Psalm 39:10 “Remove your scourge from me; I am overcome by the blow of your hand…”
    What does scourge mean? Here are some definitions:

    punish severely; excoriate
    a whip used to inflict punishment
    something causing misery or death;
    lay waste to: cause extensive destruction or ruin utterly;
    terror: a person who inspires fear or dread;

    GB said:
    =======

    Clearly, as Christ taught them the TRUTH, from the scriptures, their “heart(s) burn(ed) within (them)”.

    Echo:
    =====

    Is your heart now burning within you? Are you scourged within?

    GB said:
    ========

    And what does this verse mean? Philip. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    Echo:
    =====

    This is speaking about the peace of God that we get from the Gospel of peace.
    Ephesians 6:15 “and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.” Again, NOTHING to do with interpreting scripture.

    GB said:
    =======

    E: . . . the fruits of the Spirit are actions and attitudes that a Christian has towards all other people including their enemies.”
    . . .
    Jesus taught that there are wolves among us in sheeps clothing. I have no doubt they can mimic the fruit of the Spirit. That is afterall what wolves in sheeps clothing do…they pretend to be sheep or they try to act like sheep.

    GB: So what you are saying is that you can fake the fruits of the Spirit because they are only outward manifestations (televangelists anyone?). Then of what value are knowing what the fruits of the Spirit are, if they are only outward manifestations that can be easily faked?

    Echo:
    =====

    In light of my explanation of what the fruits of the Spirit are, fruits can be faked outwardly but cannot be faked inwardly. They are counterfeit fruit. I am uncertain that ALL fruit can be faked but love and kindness etc. can sometimes be fakery. We can see that on TV where love and kindness is just acting. Wolves in sheeps clothing can also “act” loving and kind.
    This isn’t to say that all Christians will always bear all the fruit or that they never stumble. The fruit of the Spirit must grow on the tree, the more mature the tree, the more fruit it produces. But it is God who produces fruit in and through us “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose” Phil 2:13

    GB said:
    =======

    How then does the Holy Ghost manifest Himself to us personally, if it isn’t an internal manifestation to our heart and mind?

    How will the Lord put His laws into our hearts and minds (See Heb 8:10 & 10:16) if it isn’t an internal personal manifestation?

    Echo:
    =====

    “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the WORD of Christ” Romans 10:17

    Eph 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the WORD of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    If you can’t explain it to me, how can you yourself know if it’s the Spirit of God or of demons? Who explained it to you? If you can’t explain it, how then did you learn? Are you sure their explanation to you was 100% true? What if they didn’t understand it that well and passed that along to you so that you now have a flawed idea of what it means? What if they really didn’t know the truth and passed that along to you? What if they decieved you, how would you know? How are you going to know for certain? Who is really interpreting scripture for you? How do you know that interpretation is the truth? How do you know you have not been decieved?

  161. 161 GB
    July 14, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    jl,

    My evangelical friend refuses to discuss the Bible, scriptures, doctrine or even religion with me. SO WHAT!!!! Anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence at all.

    I also noted that you accuse me of circular logic, yet you weren’t able to show it.

    jl:“Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. And Christ became a human being and lived here on earth among us and was full of loving forgiveness and truth. John 1:1,14″ .

    GB: This is another classic example of wresting the scriptures. Here you are adding things to them that just AREN’T there. In the beginning Christ was with God. Yes the TWO of them were there. AND yet is doesn’t say that they were alone now does it?

    But I am glad that you admit that Christ and the Father are separate beings.

    jl:“Which leads to the question of just where is that body right now?

    GB: The answer is very simple and is clearly taught in the Bible. Christ HAS His body of flesh, even as we speak and will have it FOREVER more. He didn’t die a second time, He only died ONCE!!!!

    jl:How can a God who is omnipresent, not limited to space and matter, also have a body that is localized in a particular place?

    GB: The premise of your question is FAULTY! God is not omnipresent. That is a Hellenized concept that corrupted the true doctrine of God.

    I see that because you are a new comer here, that I am going to reestablish some facts.

    The things that Jesus taught take precedence over what ANYONE else may have said. The teachings of Jesus are preeminent!!! See Deu 18:15-19, and Acts 3:22-23, and Col 1:18, Matt 17:5.

    What did Jesus teach regarding the location of God?

    Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •
    45 That ye may be the children of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    • • •
    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN is perfect.

    Matt. 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •
    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name.

    Matt. 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN give good things to them that ask him?
    • • •
    21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •
    14 Even so it is not the will of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, that one of these little ones should perish.
    • • •
    19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your FATHER, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    NOW since you have accused me of faulty logic. Let’s see if you can follow this logic. If God is everywhere HOW CAN He send anybody anywhere? Humm!

    John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT HIM.
    • • •
    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME.
    • • •
    36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that THE FATHER HATH SENT ME.
    37 And THE FATHER HIMSELF, WHICH HATH SENT ME, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the FATHER THAT SENT ME.
    • • •
    18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the FATHER THAT SENT ME beareth witness of me.
    • • •
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but HE SENT ME.
    John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will WHICH HATH SENT ME, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    • • •
    44 No man can come to me, except the FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • • •
    57 As the living FATHER HATH SENT ME, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that THOU HAST SENT ME.
    • • •
    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that THOU HAST SENT ME.
    John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the FATHER WHICH SENT ME, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the FATHER’S WHICH SENT ME.
    John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as MY FATHER HATH SENT ME, even so send I you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
    John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and COMETH DOWN FROM THE FATHER of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    1 Jn. 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Saviour of the world.

    Now IF God is everywhere, is He in HELL? If God is everywhere, can we ever be separated from His presence?

    What does your logic tell you?

    jl: Is the body of Jesus floating somewhere in outer space?

    GB: No!!! It is the permanent and eternal dwelling of His spirit. Otherwise it would be DEAD!!!

    The scriptures are very clear. When the spirit leaves the body DIES!!!

    jl: I don’t know.

    GB: A true statement.

    jl: I don’t know how Jesus appeared behind locked doors, either, and I don’t know how he could ascend into the air, contrary to the law of gravity. Apparently the laws of physics don’t apply to the body of Jesus Christ.

    GB: Or as is more OBVIOUS!! He is operating by higher laws.

    jl: It’s still a body, but it doesn’t have limitations that we think are part of having a body.

    GB: Interesting but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    jl: That still doesn’t answer the question of where the body is right now, but that’s really not the most important thing we need to worry about, is it?

    GB: Oh really!! I would say that it is extremely important. You claim Christ doesn’t have a body now, you have provided NO SCRIPTURE to support this claim. AND I might and that you CAN NOT!!!!! Because none exist.

    Perhaps I am mistaken in assuming that you subscribe to the doctrine of “sola scriptura”. Do you?

    jl: We need to know that Jesus is in heaven, but we do not need to know just where that is.

    GB: So Jesus isn’t omnipresent but is IN HEAVEN? Thank you for admitting that.

    jl: It is more important for us to know about the spiritual body, the way in which Jesus is living on earth right now in the church.

    GB: Actually it is EXTREMELY important to understand that Jesus’ was resurrected, which is a PERMANENT reuniting of the spirit to the body. He LIVES and He will LIVE forever. AND because of His resurrection, we will also be resurrected and live FOREVER. NEVER to die again.

    This is one of the great messages of the Gospel. That JESUS LIVES!!! He WAS resurrected and will LIVE FOREVER.

    jl: And he is doing that by means of the Holy Spirit.

    GB: Yes, Jesus is guiding His Church with the Holy Ghost. His Church IS The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints!!!

    jl: When Jesus . . . yada yada yada . . . way that he put this more than my own words could.

    GB: I notice that you FAILED to show ANY SCRIPTURE to support your claim that Jesus doesn’t have a body of flesh. NOT A SINGLE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Your claim HAS NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    But rather is based upon the Hellenized philosophies of MEN!!!

    Denying that Jesus has a body of flesh is a doctrine of antichrist!

  162. July 14, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    I should point out that even traditional Christian scholars agree that Christ didn’t ditch his body after ascending into heaven.

    JL, you seem to have a very limited idea of what physical matter is or is not capable of. Who says a physical body can’t simply appear in a locked room?

    Heck, even the guys on Star Trek can do that. Are you saying Jesus can’t?

  163. 163 GB
    July 14, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    E: If you can’t explain it to me, how can you yourself know if it’s the Spirit of God or of demons?

    GB: I have explained it to you, over and over again. The fact that you don’t understand it is prima facie evidence to me that you haven’t experienced the witness of the Holy Spirit.

    E: Who explained it to you?

    GB: I EXPERIENCED it on NUMEROUS occasions. No explanation necessary.

    E: If you can’t explain it, how then did you learn?

    GB: I have explained it, but you don’t seem able to understand it because you haven’t experienced it.

    E: Are you sure their explanation to you was 100% true?

    GB: The witness of the Holy Ghost is quite unmistakable. If you had experienced it, then you would know.

    E: What if they didn’t understand it that well and passed that along to you so that you now have a flawed idea of what it means?

    GB: It is obvious to me that the Holy Ghost knows what He is doing.

    E: What if they really didn’t know the truth and passed that along to you?

    GB: The scriptures are clear. The Holy Ghost KNOWS the truth.

    E: What if they decieved you, how would you know?

    GB: I don’t think the Holy Ghost is deceptive, do you?

    E: How are you going to know for certain?

    GB: As I said before, the witness of the Holy Ghost is unmistakable.

    E: Who is really interpreting scripture for you?

    GB: The Holy Ghost!!

    E: How do you know that interpretation is the truth?

    GB: Because it comes from the Holy Ghost. The same being that inspired its writing in the first place.

    E: How do you know you have not been decieved?

    GB: As I said before, the witness of the Holy Ghost is unmistakable. I also provided you with the Biblical test and how the doctrine taught by the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith pass the Biblical test. (And how the doctrine of the trinity fails the test.)

    And did you notice that jl COULDN’T provide a single scripture to support her claim that Christ doesn’t have His body?

    The devil is very much interested it corrupting the true understanding about the physical nature of God. The devil doesn’t have a body and will NEVER have a body. He very much wants you to worship an incorporeal being because that is what he is.

    As the scriptures CLEARLY declare, any spirit that denies that Jesus IS in the flesh is from antichrist.

  164. 164 Echo
    July 14, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    I believe Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

  165. 165 GB
    July 14, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    I am glad to know that you believe that Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and that His resurrection is permanent like the Bible teaches. This is a good first step in understanding the true nature of God and Christ.

    :-) yipee!!!!


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