02
Nov
10

THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE

      In the teacher’s manual for “Preparing for Exaltation”, the Sunday school course for 12 and 13 year olds, towards the beginning of the lesson on the fall, this note is made to the teacher.  “The decision of Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit was not a sin, as it is sometimes considered by other Christian churches.  It was a transgression – an act that was formally prohibited but not inherently wrong.” 

     This quote illustrates something that many Mormons and non-Mormons don’t realize, namely, just how different the teachings of Mormonism are from Christianity in most aspects.  It’s not just sometimes that Christian churches consider Adam and Eve’s fall a sin – I have never once heard it described as anything less!    That is how it is always described.

      And I have never heard anybody but a Mormon say that transgressions are not sins.  That’s a pretty hard case to make in light of 1 John 3:4.  “Whosever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.”   It is also difficult not to call Adam’s action a sin in light of Romans 5:18 -20 where it is quite obvious that offence and sin are synonymous.  “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.  For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.  But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.”

     But what is more striking is how the focus of much of this lesson is on how Adam and Eve did something good at the fall – something that brought us joy.  This lesson teaches that Adam and Eve had no joy before the fall.  The fall brought them joy!   This interpretation is based on 2 Nephi 2:22-25.  Therefore, as this lesson states, “they wisely chose to eat the fruit.”

     There are other aspects to Mormonism’s teaching on the fall that are found in no other church.  For example, Mormonism stresses that Adam and Eve could not have children until they fell.  Or how about this from their Bible Dictionary?  “Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood.”

     The main point that I am trying to make is that often Mormons assume that Christians believe similarly as they do on many Bible details and vice versa with Christians.  If there is going to be any rue progress made when talking with each other, both Mormons and Christians alike need to realize how dramatically different each reads the Bible. 

     Adam and Eve’s fall did not bring me any joy.  It only brought sin, death, pain, and condemnation.  When they ate the fruit, they were not wise; they were rebellious.  What they did was “not inherently wrong” it was terribly wrong.  Thank God, as Paul stated in Romans, through the righteousness of Jesus we received the free gift of justification.  My joy comes not from Adam and Eve’s fall, but from Jesus’ complete sacrifice for me.

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65 Responses to “THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE”


  1. 1 Ralph Peterson
    November 2, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    “I have never once heard it described as anything less! That is how it is always described.”

    Really?

    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s TRANSGRESSION, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the TRANSGRESSION.

    Can you provide one scripture that calls the partaking of the fruit a “sin”?

    Answer = NO!!!

  2. 2 Echo
    November 2, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Ralph said: “Can you provide one scripture that calls the partaking of the fruit a “sin”?

    Mark Provided the scripture for you.

  3. 3 markcares
    November 2, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    Ralph:
    Your comment illustrates why it is so difficult to have any kind of productive conversation. Did you even read the entire post?
    If you would read my statement in context,it is clear that I’m talking about Adam’s fall being described in churches as sin. it is described that way because only Mormonism makes a false disticntion between transgressions and sins. To state it anoother way, I have never heard in any other church that Adam’s action was “not inherently wrong”.
    I also second what Echo said. Romans 5 interchanges offence and sin. Yes, Adam sinned.

  4. 4 Echo
    November 2, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Transgression is SIN.

    SATAN celebrates SIN(transgression) against God.

    The LDS church celebrates sin:

    “WE CELEBRATE EVE’S ACT and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall” “Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same” (“The Great Plan of Happiness” Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)(emphasis mine)

    Who is the Father of the LDS Church? Is it God or Satan?

    Please hear what we have to say, read our entire posts, try to understand what we are saying, we want to help you, we want you to share eternity in heaven with us.

  5. 5 Ralph Peterson
    November 4, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Adam’s partaking of the fruit maybe described “in churches as sin”, but it isn’t described that way in the Bible.

    Rom 5:14 clearly distinguishes between the “transgression” of Adam and the sins of others. If it was the same, Paul would have used the word “sin” rather than “transgression”.

    Paul doesn’t “interchange” the words at all, but rather makes a distinction between them.

    I could provide further explanation and scriptural support for why this is, but I don’t want to waste my time.

    There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a sin. This is one FACT you can NOT change.

    I appears to me that you are throwing “sola scriptura” and Bible “inerrancy” under the bus.

  6. 6 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Romans 5:19 ” For just as through the DISOBEDIENCE of the one man [Adam] the many were made SINNERS,…”

    The verse above is referring to Adam. It says he was DISOBEDIENT. That means Adam SINNED.
    If we are obedient, we are not sinning. If we are disobedient, we are sinning. It’s one or the other.

    The word: “SINNER” is used in this passage. We became sinners because Adam sinned. It was “through” Adam’s sin that were made sinners. That is what the passage says.

    Here is another passage that states that Adam’s SIN was indeed a SIN:

    Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] SIN entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”

    It’s undeniably written in both verses.

    Nonetheless, the LDS Church believes it was a transgression. The LDS Church celebrates transgression as per the quote I gave above from the LDS authorities. Only Satan celebrates transgression against God. The Bible is filled with passages on “transgression” and God clearly stands against it. Let those passages convince you.

    Adam’s SIN in the Fall was willful disobedience. God told him not to eat the fruit and he ate the fruit anyways. Adam knew the good he ought to do (God said: don’t eat the fruit) Adam ate it anyways and in doing so he sinned. James 4:17 says: “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, SINS”

    Ralph said: “I appears to me that you are throwing “sola scriptura” and Bible “inerrancy” under the bus”

    If you don’t believe the Bible is inerrant, you have already thrown the Bible in the trash can. You can’t use a book containing errors to convince anyone of anything. After all, any point you make to support your position using the Bible is an error!

  7. 7 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    Ralph also said: “I could provide further explanation and scriptural support for why this is, but I don’t want to waste my time”

    Here is the honest reason why you would be wasting your time. You believe the Bible contains errors.

    That is what you told me. That is what you want me to believe. If I believe you and think like you want me to think, any scripture you now use to support your view from here on out…contains errors. That is a waste of time isn’t it.

  8. 8 Ralph Peterson
    November 4, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a “sin”. This is one FACT you can NOT change.

  9. 15 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    There are equally as many links on the internet that counter all the websites that you gave and give great explanations for all of this. Christian websites! I see the links you posted are from “atheism”, “infidels” etc. Is it wise to get information from athiests whose only desire is that all religion be axed?

    Besides, your only changing the topic. Why? Lets not derail the thread.

    Ralph said: “There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a “sin”. This is one FACT you can NOT change.

    I gave a verse in post number 6 with other information as well.

    You believe Adam and Eve sin was only a transgression. Do you believe rebellion is a sin against God?

    Transgression is rebellion against God.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6588&t=KJV

    The LDS Church celebrates rebellion against God.

  10. 16 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    Ralph, your guilty of celebrating rebellion against God. That is indeed the most ungodly thing a person can do!

    Thankfully Jesus died for the ungodly. That means YOU! That means me.

  11. 17 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    Romans 4:5-8 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin”

    Believe it!

  12. 18 Ralph Peterson
    November 4, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    None of the verses presented show that partaking of the fruit was a “sin”.

    There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a “sin”. This is one FACT you can NOT change.

  13. 19 Echo
    November 4, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    Ralph said: “None of the verses presented show that partaking of the fruit was a “sin”.

    There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a “sin”. This is one FACT you can NOT change”

    Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] SIN entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”

  14. 20 RLO
    November 5, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Give it up, Echo. Ralph is only going to stupidly cut and paste the same worn out sentences, “There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a ‘sin.’ This is one FACT you can NOT change.” and keep re-sending them to you without regard to the plain, clear, and undeniable scriptural evidence you have provided him. You’ve done your job. And your efforts have been commendable. But it’s not your responsibility to make the blind see. That’s the responsibility of the Holy Spirit. It’s in His hands now.

  15. 21 Echo
    November 6, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    RLO, I don’t want to be commended for my efforts and quit. I want to show Ralph God’s unfailing love. Even and especially for LDS like Ralph who are clearly in rebellion against him.

  16. 22 Echo
    November 7, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Ralph,

    According to the verse below, how do rebellious people respond to the word of God?

    Jeremiah 6:10 “To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me?
    Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the LORD is offensive to them;
    they find no pleasure in it. “

  17. 23 Echo
    November 7, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    Rebellion = war against authority

    Mathew Raley in his article on rebellious children writes:

    “No rebel can acknowledge a duty to tell the truth or keep promises without undercutting his war against authority. The ultimate truth is the rebel’s own will. ANYTHING BINDING HIS WILL MUST BE CUT, AND ACCURACY BECOMES JUST ONE MORE SHACKLE. THE FIRST CASUALTY IN THE REBEL’S WAR FOR CONTROL IS THE TRUTH.” (Matthew Raley)(emphasis mine)

    Now apply that truth here:

    Since a Rebel is a person who does not want to “hear” God’s word and will, the rebel seeks to discard God’s word and will in order that his own will(the will of the rebel) becomes the ultimate truth. That’s right. The rebel will trash the truth belonging to the authority he is warring against in order to make room for his own will. The rebel’s will now becomes the ultimate truth. In order to discard the truth, the rebel will “cut anything that binds his will” and will remove the “shackle’s of accuracy”. The truth belonging to the authority then takes its hit. How does one discard the truth in this way?: By saying: “The Bible is errant!” and: “It’s been translated incorrectly!”

    “For the rebel to gain control of his life, he must fabricate a new god, a pliable deity whom he can manipulate through rituals and rationalizations.” (Mathew Raley)

    Fabricating a God is like playing with Legos Mathew Raley says:

    “There’s a pile of ideas about God on the carpet, and your job is to assemble God out of them. So you try different ideas and see how God looks. If an idea about God’s justice doesn’t work for you, it’s like a black Lego that looks out of place. Pull it off and try a red one, a piece of mercy perhaps, and see if it doesn’t look better. Or if a Bible verse seems like a “hard saying” to you, it’s nothing more than a block that’s too big. The Bible has other verses. Find a smaller block.
    Whatever the case. They’re your Legos.” (Mathew Raley)

    Here you have Mormonism. Built on the foundation of celebrating rebellion against God. Mormonism has Trashed the word of God and in turn set up it’s own rebellious will as being the ultimate truth. That is Mormonism in a nutshell.

    A person who is rebellious and desires to remain rebellious will not yield to reality.

    The inerrant word of God is reality. I repeat, THE INERRANT WORD OF GOD IS REALITY.

    The REALITY of rebellion against God and God’s unfailing love for the rebellious to follow…

  18. November 8, 2010 at 1:34 am

    Ralph is a wonderful example if why I am not a Mormon.

  19. 25 Echo
    November 8, 2010 at 3:20 am

    This post will be devoted to the REALITY of REBELLION AGAINST GOD and the next post will be devoted to the REALITY of GOD’S UNFAILING LOVE FOR THE REBELLIOUS. Please be sure to read both posts.

    THE REALITY OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD:

    Now remember that the LDS Church is built on the foundation of celebrating rebellion against God and his word as shown in the above posts…

    In Deut 17:12 below, what rebellious attitude did the people have?
    What was the punishment for that attitude?
    Why was that punishable?

    Duet 17:12 “ Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.”

    In 1 Samuel 15:23 below, what does the scripture say rebellion is like?
    What attitude do the rebellious have?
    What sin is that like?
    What does the verse say this rebellious person did?
    How has the LDS church and Ralph rejected the word of the Lord according to his and my earlier posts?

    1 Sam 15:23 “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

    In Galatians 5:19-21 below, what do those who practice witchcraft not inherit?

    Gal 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    In Daniel 12:2 below, how many kingdoms are there? Which one is the kingdom of God?

    Daniel 12:2 2 “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt”

    In Nehemiah 9:16-17 below, what 5 things did these rebellious people do? Has Ralph had any of the attitudes in the verse below?

    Nehemiah 9:16-17 “But they, our ancestors, became arrogant and stiff-necked, and they did not obey your commands. They refused to listen and failed to remember the miracles you performed among them”

    In Jeremiah 6:10 below, how do rebellious people respond to the word of God?
    How has Ralph responded to the word of God when I posted it?

    Jeremiah 6:10 “ To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the LORD is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it.

    According to Psalm 50:17 below, what are 2 things rebellious people do?
    What has Ralph done?

    Psalm 50:17 “ You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you.”

    According to Judges 2:17 below, what were 2 causes of rebellion?
    How has Ralph not listened to us?

    Judges 2:17 “ Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from the ways of their ancestors, who had been obedient to the LORD’s commands.”

    What happens to Rebels? What happens to rebels who remain in their rebellion?

    Isaiah 1:28 “ But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.”

    In Isaiah 57:4 below, what are the 3 attitudes a rebel has?
    And rebels are the offspring of whom?
    Has Ralph expressed any of these attitudes?

    Isaiah 57:4 “ Who are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue?
    Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars?”

    In John 8:44 below, who is the Father of Liars?

    John 8:44 “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

    In Psalm 105:28 below, what did God send against those who rebelled against his word?

    Psalm 105:28 “ He sent darkness and made the land dark— for had they not rebelled against his words?”

    In Psalm 107:17 below, what name were the rebellious labeled with? What did they suffer because of their rebellion?

    Psalm 107:17 “Some became fools through their rebellious ways and suffered affliction because of their iniquities”

    In Proverbs 17:11 below, what are the rebellious called? What will be sent against them?

    Proverbs 17:11 “ Evildoers foster rebellion against God; the messenger of death will be sent against them.”

    In John 12:48 below, what happens to those who do not accept God’s words?

    John 12:48 “ There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.”

    One more post coming on God’s unfailing love for the rebellious. That post will be for you too Ralph.

  20. 26 Echo
    November 8, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    GODS UNFAILING LOVE FOR THE REBELLIOUS

    When wanting to understand God’s unfailing love for the rebellious we only need to turn to the INERRANT word of God. Throughout the pages of scripture, Jesus is revealed as many things but especially as your savior from sin. A savior from sin who instantly silences your fear of death and punishment. He is the one who gave you his righteousness to stand perfectly before God.

    Luther said this; “Lord Jesus, I am your sin, you are my righteousness. You have made me what I was not; I have made you what you were not. Amen”

    Jesus isn’t your creditor, he is your substitute. He traded places with you. It’s like an identity exchange. Jesus traded places with you. He became you, you became him.

    In Jesus suffering and death he became you and suffered the punishment you deserve.
    You became him, you became perfect, Holy and innocent, free from spot and blemish.
    That’s an identity you get to keep now and on through forever-through faith!

    Forgiveness isn’t granted to those who believe they must first overcome their sin because that is what Jesus came to do for you. It is DONE.

    If you believe you must overcome your sin in order to be forgiven you are rejecting what Jesus has done for you. If you reject what Jesus has done for you, you will spend your entire life and then go down to the grave attempting to gain’s God’s forgiveness. But because you are a sinner and will remain one until you die, you will never have the peace that comes from knowing you are completely and fully forgiven. Your Sins will always rob you of peace. You will live your entire life in anguish not knowing whether you have been fully healed by the healing balm of sweet forgiveness.

    The Bible doesn’t teach that we will be forgiven after we overcome our sin but that we have been forgiven because Jesus has overcome our sin. His punishment brought us the peace that comes from knowing we are fully and completely forgiven. We have been healed by the healing balm of sweet forgiveness!

    Isaiah 53:5 “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.”

    It’s impossible for a person who believes that he must overcome his sins in order to be forgiven to have the peace and healing that comes from knowing you are fully forgiven.
    Sin will always rob you of peace. If it doesn’t then not knowing whether you have done enough will rob you of peace!
    God, in his unfailing love for you wants you to KNOW you have been forgiven! He wants you to have peace now, he wants you to know he has already healed you!

    Amen!

    Romans 4:6-8 “ David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

    Hebrews 10:14 “For by one sacrifice he HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy”

    Col 1:22 “ But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—“

    Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness”

    Isaiah 61:10 “I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness”

    Amen!

    It’s all DONE! Believe it!

  21. 27 Ralph Peterson
    November 10, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] SIN entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”

    Yes, “as by one man” [Adam], by partaking of the fruit, which was a transgression, but not a sin, “sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”, including Adam, but it wasn’t by partaking of the fruit.

    So again, none of the verses presented show that partaking of the fruit was a “sin”.

    There is NO Bible verse that calls partaking of the fruit a “sin”. This is one FACT you can NOT change.

  22. 28 Echo
    November 10, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Ralph said: Yes, “as by one man” [Adam], by partaking of the fruit, which was a transgression, but not a sin, “sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”, including Adam, but it wasn’t by partaking of the fruit.”

    It is undoubtedly written that SIN entered the world by partaking of the fruit. How do we know that for sure? We are absolutely certain because the sentence of “Death by SIN” came immediately after they ate the fruit. Eating the fruit was the sin that brought death to Adam and Eve.

    Below is the sentence of death that followed the SIN of partaking of the fruit.

    In Genesis 3:22 “He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

  23. 29 Ralph Peterson
    November 11, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Notice, that there was no sin in the world until AFTER the partaking of the fruit.

    Sin requires knowledge. Rom 3:20.

    There was no knowledge of good and evil UNTIL AFTER the partaking of the fruit, therefore no sin, only transgression.

  24. 30 Echo
    November 11, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    From the Romans 3:20 passage you quoted: “for by the law is the knowledge of sin”

    Juat as the verse explains, The knowledge of sin comes when God tells us to do or not to do something.

    God told Adam not to eat the fruit and because of that, Adam had the knowledge of sin. He sinned when he ate the fruit.

    Adam knew the good God wanted him to do and he didn’t do it.

    James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, SINS

  25. 31 Echo
    November 13, 2010 at 1:02 am

    Knowledge of sin doesn’t come to us only after we have disobeyed God. It comes to us when God tells us to do or not to do something.

    Think about it this way…

    A man who is considering becoming a pedophile already knows that is wrong before he actually goes ahead and commits that crime because the government has said not to do it. The moment that pedophile steps over the line and commits a sexual act on a child, he IS GUILTY of willfully going against the law and he therefore will be charged and held accountable. He is fact in God’s eyes guilty of SIN, not only in the act itself, but before the act when he desired in his heart to commit that indecent sexual act to begin with.

    According to Mormonism’s thinking/theology on this matter. That thinking dictates that we should celebrate this man’s first sexual act against a child because he has only transgressed but has not sinned because he couldn’t know it was wrong until he first tried it himself to see how it made him feel. That’s outrageous theology, don’t you think?

    Think about that when some man, for the first time, chooses your very only child as his sexual victim. How would that make you feel? Are you going to celebrate it?

  26. 33 Ralph Peterson
    November 17, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    A new and important study of religion in America was recently published under the title “American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us”.

    Among the study’s findings related to Latter-day Saints are the following:

    * Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
    The American Grace study assessed a composite measure of “religiosity” that measured individuals’ levels of religious observance, the strength of their religious convictions about God and their faith, and the degree to which they feel their religion is personally important. As a group, Mormons registered a high level of “religiosity” (American Grace, 23-24).

    * Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
    In an age of American religion where people often depart from the religion of their upbringing and where switching between religions is becoming more common, the study indicates that individuals raised as Latter-day Saints are among those most likely to keep their faith (137-138).

    * Mormons are unusually giving.
    Among the study’s larger conclusions is the fact that, in general, religion in America contributes to civic virtue, altruism, and good neighborliness. Study data, meanwhile, indicate that collectively Mormons are among the most charitable of Americans with their means and time, both in religious and nonreligious causes (452).

    * Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
    The study also reports that Mormons are among those most friendly toward those of other faiths. Relatively speaking, the United States has not been the scene of deep religious conflicts; it is and has been a place of remarkable religious tolerance and pluralism. Nevertheless, the study’s authors point out that Americans are divided by religion, and hence, American society is susceptible to religious discord. Indeed, American religious (and nonreligious) groups have various feelings about one another. While data suggest that Mormons are among those viewed least positively by many American religious groups, they themselves hold relatively positive views toward members of other faiths, including those outside of Christianity (505-508).

    * Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”
    The scholars behind the study conclude that while many American religions make claims to being exclusively “true,” few religionists in the United States actually believe that “one true religion” exists. Of all American faiths, Mormons are most likely to affirm that there is a “true” faith (546). However, in what might seem a paradox to those unfamiliar with Mormonism, study data also indicate that while many Mormons believe that there is a “true” religion, Mormons are also the most convinced of any group that those outside their faith — including non-Christians — can “go to heaven” or gain salvation (535-537). While this belief is general among American believers, it is, according to the study, strongest among Latter-day Saints.

    Robert D. Putnam and David E. Campbell, American Grace: How Religious Divides and Unites Us (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2010).

  27. 34 Echo
    November 17, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    Are you trying to create a diversion to distract attention Ralph? This is a red herring Ralph.

    Ralph said: “* Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
    The American Grace study assessed a composite measure of “religiosity” that measured individuals’ levels of religious observance, the strength of their religious convictions about God and their faith, and the degree to which they feel their religion is personally important. As a group, Mormons registered a high level of “religiosity” (American Grace, 23-24).”

    How can a non religious group discern what is true “religiosity”? They can’t.
    The Pharisees were among the most devout religious groups of Jesus’ day. I bet these scholars would have said the same thing about the Pharisees.

    Ralph said: “* Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
    In an age of American religion where people often depart from the religion of their upbringing and where switching between religions is becoming more common, the study indicates that individuals raised as Latter-day Saints are among those most likely to keep their faith (137-138).

    The Pharisees were most likely to keep their childhood faith too.

    Ralph said: “* Mormons are unusually giving.
    Among the study’s larger conclusions is the fact that, in general, religion in America contributes to civic virtue, altruism, and good neighborliness. Study data, meanwhile, indicate that collectively Mormons are among the most charitable of Americans with their means and time, both in religious and nonreligious causes (452).”

    The Pharisees were really giving too, they gave a 10th of all they had. They did all their works to be seen and admired by men.

    Ralph said: “* Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
    The study also reports that Mormons are among those most friendly toward those of other faiths. Relatively speaking, the United States has not been the scene of deep religious conflicts; it is and has been a place of remarkable religious tolerance and pluralism. Nevertheless, the study’s authors point out that Americans are divided by religion, and hence, American society is susceptible to religious discord. Indeed, American religious (and nonreligious) groups have various feelings about one another. While data suggest that Mormons are among those viewed least positively by many American religious groups, they themselves hold relatively positive views toward members of other faiths, including those outside of Christianity (505-508).”

    I have spoken to a lot of Mormons over the years. Many of them I spoke with would well deserve to be called white washed tombs, hypocrites, pigs, dogs, brood of vipers, Just as Jesus himself judged the Pharisees. I would recommend that anyone go through the archives on this blog and judge for yourself if what I am saying is true. Let the Mormon voices in these archives speak for themselves. Mormons are not relatively friendly at all. Even you Ralph are a fine example of that in the archives of this blog.

    Ralph said: * Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”
    The scholars behind the study conclude that while many American religions make claims to being exclusively “true,” few religionists in the United States actually believe that “one true religion” exists. Of all American faiths, Mormons are most likely to affirm that there is a “true” faith (546). However, in what might seem a paradox to those unfamiliar with Mormonism, study data also indicate that while many Mormons believe that there is a “true” religion, Mormons are also the most convinced of any group that those outside their faith — including non-Christians — can “go to heaven” or gain salvation (535-537). While this belief is general among American believers, it is, according to the study, strongest among Latter-day Saints.

    Contradictory to the teaching of scripture which says that faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven.

    It’s hard to believe Ralph that you would attempt to get someone to believe the LDS Church is true because of statistics rather than telling them to read the Bible and see which church is true. Your tempting the readers to SIN by tempting them to trust man (you and the writers of the book) rather than God.

    The true church of God is a remnant. True believers in every church who believe in the biblical gospel. The Mormon gospel which is a whole other gospel is false and it condemns people to Hell. People can read the bible for themselves and see which church is the true church of God. The bible teaches that there will be chaff and hypocrites, unbelievers, false teachers and false prophets, and wolves in amongst the wheat and sheep. So the TRUE church is NOT going to look picture perfect and all lovey dovey as this book makes you look! The TRUE church is going to look exactly the opposite because of that very reason!

  28. November 18, 2010 at 7:18 am

    What is striking is how sin is rationalized. It’s been an ever present clever argument by Satan. “Did God really say …. ?”
    As I read this entire post, I can’t help but be reminded of this age long thinking.
    Satan has always been known for presenting what God said skewed just enough for it not to be 100% true, but never 100% false. In effect his ploy is rationalization, “Did God really say

    It is the first trap Satan uses “Did God really say.. is sin different than transgressions?”

    Was eating the fruit not a “sin”, but only a “transgression” ?

    —————————————-
    Here is what we do know:
    Jesus said who ever looks lustfully upon a woman has committed adultry already (Matthew 5:28)

    Jesus said that it’s not what goes in the body that makes one unclean, but what comes out through the mouth from the heart that makes one unclean (Matthew 15:18)

    Jesus’ point is that by that standard (Matthew 5:28; Matthew 15:18), God’s demand for perfection is breached well beyond any physical action. God’s intention for perfection extends

    \\\\\What about Adam and Eve ?////////////////

    Keeping that standard (Matthew 5:28; Matthew 15:18) part of God’s intent, was God’s demand for perfection breached?

    Eve “looked” and saw the fruit was good.
    Adam was “looking” while everything was going on…….By God’s standard revealed by Jesus (Matthew 5:28), Adam and Eve essentially committed spiritual adultry.

    Rationalizing whether eating the fruit is a “transgression” is a mute point.

  29. 36 Ralph Peterson
    November 18, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Here are a few excerpts from a book written by a non-LDS Christian professor of religion:

    “Like the Ancient of Days, Adam is enthroned in the presence of angels and is described as a ‘terrifying’ being who looks like the ‘Master’. These motifs of angelic beings and terror are found in Daniel 7.”

    “By itself Adam’s adornment in ‘glory’ does not render him godlike, but when his glorious appearance is coupled with the ‘master’s (God’s) appearance, Adam’s divine status appears to be implied…Thus, Adam’s appearance makes him godlike.”

    “Adam is not called a judge in the Testament of Abraham, but he is part of the judgmental process…[T]he Ancient of Days is not explicitly called a judge in Daniel 7, but appears first in the judgment scene, just as Adam does in the Testament of Abraham.”

    “Perhaps even the title given to Adam, ‘first-formed’, which obviously can be understood as implying his great age or patriarchal stature, can be connected to the title ‘Ancient of Days’ in Daniel.”

    “A sampling of both the Adam literature and other related texts dealing with Adam’s glorification reveals how Adam was believed by some to be exalted over all creation, great in size, innocent of sin, and even the creator. An examination of those texts dealing with Adam’s enthronement, his position at the gate of Paradise and Hell, his divine likeness, and his overseeing of creation will provide a context which makes an Adam-Ancient of Days interpretation feasible.” (Phillip B. Munoa, III, Four Power In Heaven: The Interpretation of Daniel 7 in the Testament of Abraham: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998)

    “The Testament of Abraham” is said to be a record of some Jewish legends.

    Obviously, the Jews thought more highly of Adam than some here.

  30. November 18, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    Ralph,
    Rationalizing whether eating the fruit is not a sin but only “transgression” is a mute point.

    God’s perfection standard was breached when Eve “looked” and saw it was good when compared to Jesus’ revelation in Matthew 5:28.

    They are both guilty of spirtual adultery.

  31. 38 Joseph S.
    November 18, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    This is getting to be down right comical! I love it when Mormons start quoting liberal Bible scholars as a way to try and add credibility to their beliefs. To say that Phillip B. Munoa is a Christian is a flat out joke. He might be a professor of religion, but that does not make a person a believing Christian.

    The “Adam-Ancient of Days” idea sounds like a liberal scholar pulling excrement out of his butt and presenting it to the world as a sweet smelling rose.

    Nice try Ralph.

  32. 39 Echo
    November 18, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    We think equally as highly of Adam also. Adam was created in God’s likeness, in God’s image. He was perfect and without sin, he was created to rule over all creation etc… When Adam sinned he lost that image…

    Adam covered himself with Satan’s apron or covering of fig leaves which is a real garment but also symbolic of them covering their own shame and guilt through blaming each other, blaming the serpent and blaming God for their sins. They did this in attempt to make themselves righteous before God. It’s an apron of refusal to admit their own sin and guilt without blaming anyone but themselves. That apron or covering represents them attempting to hide their guilt from God. That plays out when God approaches the two guilty sinners and they begin to attempt to wiggle their way out of the guilt of their sin.(Genesis 3:7-13)

    Then in verses 14 to 19 God shows them their guilt. First the serpent, then the woman, then Adam. All are guilty for what they have done. The apron of fig leaves they sewed and put on did not work. God could see through their apron and see their true nakedness. Before God they were still naked.

    In verse 15 we see the promise of a Savior from sin.

    God saw through that apron or garment of Satan that Adam and Eve had made not letting them hide their guilt and sin. Then in verse 21 God covered them with a garment made by God and not made by Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were now seen in God’s eye the same way they were seen by God before the Fall. Perfect, Holy and innocent.

    ONE SINGLE sin is all it took to declare Adam and Eve unrighteous before God.

    One sin is all that it takes to declare you unrighteous before God. Stop trying to wiggle out of your sins and attempting to make yourselves righteous through the blame game, through watering down sin, through thinking you can ever become worthy, through thinking you only have to try your best or whatever other excuses you have. These are all Satan’s covering of fig leafs. They are a man made covering with it’s root in Satan, they are not a God made covering.

    ONE sin is all that is needed to declare you unrighteous before God.

    Instead, admit your guilt, admit that you are unrighteous, admit your unworthy and then know that God has given you a garment made with his hands not yours. He has clothed you with his righteousness, not yours. See for yourself…

    Isaiah 61:10 “I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.”

    Romans 3:19-24 “ Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness FROM GOD, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

    The LDS church by denying the sin of Adam has built it’s church on that very foundation. The foundation of wiggling out of sin. You can see this play itself out throughout their teachings. The LDS church waters down many sins so that they are no longer sins but simply a character flaw or poor decisions etc. The LDS church brings forth teachings that make righteousness obtainable by men. All of this is a wiggling out of sin, an attempt to find a way to make man righteous before God.

    But the LDS is naked before God. One sin is all it takes to be declared unrighteous and unless a person is free from all sin, all character flaws, all poor decisions etc. they are NOT righteous before God. Character flaws and poor decisions are all SIN. Anyone who SINS is a law breaker. If you have but one single character flaw or make one poor decision, your as EQUALLY guilty of sinning as a person who has broken every single Law God has made.

    James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”

    If the LDS continues down the road in wearing their own fig leaf garment which indentifies them with Satan and as his children. Then in the judgment their nakedness will be revealed and lead to their destruction.

    Or, they can turn and acknowledge their nakedness now and then be clothed in the garment that God has already made for them which indentifies them with God and as his children.

    God’s garment of HIS righteousness imputed to us, not OUR righteousness. Now Fully restored in God’s image through Christ imputing to us HIS righteousness,
    one time to last for all time = having been declared forever perfect, Holy and Blameless. The same garment Adam was clothed with in Eden after the fall.

    Nobody gets to heaven doing all they can do. Perfection is required. Jesus met that requirement for us, in our behalf.

  33. 40 Echo
    November 18, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    You make a good point. I would rather believe God and his word over and above that of any man whether he be a liberal Bible scholar or a conservative Bible scholar. Whether he be a genuine Christian or not.

    If we believe any man over God, that man becomes our idol(our God) and replaces the one true God.

    Romans 3:4 “Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

  34. 41 Echo
    November 18, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    Yet another way that Ralph has proven himself to be unworthy.

  35. 42 Echo
    November 21, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    Ralph, I have shown you several times how you are not worthy but you belong to a church that requires you be worthy.

    My point is this…

    The purpose of God’s law wasn’t to give us a “TO DO” list but was given to give us a “YOU CAN’T DO THIS!” list. Ralph, are you seeing the truth in this yet or are you wiggling out of admitting this?

    Romans 3:19-20 ” Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

  36. 43 Ralph Peterson
    November 22, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    I posted this 4 days ago. It has been sitting, “awaiting moderation” that long. I will assume that it is because of the links within. I have removed the “http” to see if this is the cause.

    Phillip B. Munoa’s work cited above is a scholarly work taken serious by other scholars. Even those of the Jewish variety.

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/1455421

    jss.oxfordjournals.org/content/XLVI/1/172.extract

    onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9418.00028/abstract

    He also has works published in the “Journal of Biblical Literature”.

    Rather than engage his work, why don’t you resort to ad hominem attacks and try to poison the well. And no need to be crude and uncivil in the process.

    So, go ahead and throw him off your “christian” bus if you want, he, probably wouldn’t want to ride with you anyway.

  37. 44 Ralph Peterson
    November 22, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    “Adam knew the good God wanted him to do and he didn’t do it.”

    False! Adam couldn’t have known “good” nor “evil” until AFTER partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    You seem to be ignoring this fact.

    Also I notice that Paul says (Gal 3:17)”the law” was four hundred and thirty years after the promise was given to Abraham. Is “the law” in Gal 3:17 the same as “the law” referred to in Rom 3:20?

  38. 45 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Ralph said: “Rather than engage his work, why don’t you resort to ad hominem attacks and try to poison the well. And no need to be crude and uncivil in the process.

    So, go ahead and throw him off your “christian” bus if you want, he, probably wouldn’t want to ride with you anyway.”

    Ralph, if you believe I am resorting to ad hominem attacks and being crude and uncivil then you have misjudged all that I have written and my purpose in it. If you want to be more specific in your judgments by listing them, I will be glad to explain to you what I intended by them and what my motives are. Certainly my motives are never to be crude or uncivil towards you. In fact the opposite is quite true.

  39. 46 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    The “law” is anything God tells us to do or not to do.

    When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, that was “law”. When God gave Moses the 10 commandments, that was “law”. In either case, when God says to do or not to do something, man knows the good he ought to do because God has told him what to do or not do. James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, SINS.”

    Again, it’s as if your saying a pedophile didn’t know his first act of sexual offense against a child was wrong when all along the government had made a law against it. Of course he knew it was wrong before he commit the first offence. You seem to be ignoring this fact yourself. You need to address this in your own mind.

  40. 47 Ralph Peterson
    November 22, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    ‘The “law” is anything God tells us to do or not to do. ‘

    Paul says that “the law was four hundred and thirty years” after the promise was given to Abraham.

    Where is your scriptural reference to support your claim?

  41. 48 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Ralph said: “Where is your scriptural reference to support your claim?”

    This IS the scriptural definition of the law:

    James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”

    The law for Adam and Eve was this: ” And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” (Genesis 2:16-17)

    The law for Moses and the Israelites came on Mount Sinai.

    In reality, understanding what “law” means is really a matter of common sense and it doesn’t take intelligence to understand. Ask any small child who has learned to talk who is 2-3 years old what the law or rules are in his house and he will tell you it’s anything mom and dad tell me to do or not to do. Look at a child under that age from age 0-2 who is not yet old enough to speak and they too can show you by their actions rather than their words that they know what the law in their house is when they respond to it by not doing something their parents tell them not to do.

    The definition of the English word: “Law” from the net is this:

    “the collection of rules imposed by authority”
    “Law is a system of rules”

    Ralph, the problem here isn’t that you are less unintelligent than a child who can’t even talk yet but that either your pride, prejudice or fear won’t let you see the truth.

    Which is it? I can help you with any of those but you first must admit which one it is because I can’t know what is in your heart, I can’t guess what’s in your heart because only you truly know what’s in there. So you first have to tell me. That’s the only way I can help you.

  42. 49 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    Was Jesus being crude or uncivil when he called the pharisees a brood of vipers and white washed tombs? The answer is: No he wasn’t.

    Jesus was midjudged by the pharisees as being crude and uncivil when in reality he wasn’t being crude and uncivil even when he spoke those words to the pharisees even if it might offend them, which it did.

    Ralph, what was Jesus really doing when he said those words to the pharisees?

  43. 50 Ralph Peterson
    November 22, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”

    But you continue failing to recognize that the key to knowing good and evil was in the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. So thanks for providing that scripture that SUPPORTS the LDS position.

    Adam and Eve did NOT know the good from the evil until AFTER they partook of the fruit. God confirms this in Gen 3:22.

    “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

    Or, as the NIV puts it.
    And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    So, since Adam and Eve didn’t know the good or evil of partaking of the fruit UNTIL AFTER they partook of it, it was NOT a sin to do so.

  44. 51 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Ralph said: “But you continue failing to recognize that the key to knowing good and evil was in the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.” … “Or, as the NIV puts it.
    And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    You are suggesting they had to eat the fruit because the fruit contained the knowledge of good and evil. That is like suggesting that a man who wants to commit sexual offences against a child must first commit the act before he can know its evil. That’s exactly how you are interpreting this scripture. You and I both know that a man who commits his first indecent sexual act against a child is guilty of sinning and breaking the law. He knows it and we know it.

    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil isn’t the knowledge of what is good and what is evil; in the sense the LDS has led you to believe.

    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this…

    Eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil means you are rebelling against authority and instead choosing for yourself, (making up your own mind) what is good and what is evil despite what the authority over you says, in this case the authority is God himself. In other words, eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is like setting yourself up as your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and what is evil and refusing to not have God rule over you by telling you what is good and what is evil.

    God told Adam not to eat the fruit of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil or he would die! Instead God wanted Adam to trust that God knows what is good and what is evil.

    When God said “do not eat the fruit” of judging for yourself what is good and what is evil, Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to not listen to God because God told them not to eat from that tree. They had that knowledge of sin the moment God told them not to do it. Adam and Eve both rejected and rebelled against God’s authority and wanted to become their own God choosing for themselves what is good and what is evil. God said the fruit was bad by telling them it would bring death. Adam and Eve rebelled against his authority and made up their own minds that the fruit was good even though God had told them it was bad by showing them it would bring death.

    So when God later says: “Now they have become like one of us knowing good and evil” he is in fact saying that Adam and Eve have set themselves up as their own God, choosing for themselves what is good and what is evil despite what God has says is good and evil. They are usurping God’s authority over them. In other words Adam is saying: “I bow a knee in submission to NO God but myself!” Isn’t that the hearts desire in all rebellion against God?

  45. November 22, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    Ralph, any believing Christian knows that Daniel 7 is describing Jesus, not Adam. You, like the liberal Bible scholars you cite, defile the gold of scripture with your own filth. Your condemnation is deserved.

  46. 53 Echo
    November 22, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    Ralph, don’t misunderstand or misjudge Joseph’s words to you here but instead, take them to heart. Joseph is not being “crude” or “uncivil”. Jesus had similar harsh words for the pharisees and he wasn’t being crude or uncivil. Jesus was speaking the truth to them so that they might turn from their current ways and beliefs. Understand and judge Joseph’s words in the same way the pharisees “should” have judged and understood the words of Jesus. Don’t judge motives and misunderstand the way many pharisees did and as a result, they were condemned.

  47. 54 Ralph Peterson
    November 23, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    I will take the word of God over the word of Echo.

    Gen 3:22.
    “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

    Or, as the NIV puts it.
    And the LORD God said, “THE MAN HAS NOW BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    God confirms that Adam and Eve did NOT know the good from the evil until AFTER they partook of the fruit.

    “You are suggesting they had to eat the fruit because the fruit contained the knowledge of good and evil.”

    That is what God said. Believe it!

    “That is like suggesting that a man who wants to commit sexual offences against a child must first commit the act before he can know its evil.”

    Not even close. Since the fall of Adam that knowledge of good and evil is given to all.

    “That’s exactly how you are interpreting this scripture.”

    Just taking God at His word. Look, you are free to ignore what God said if you want. You are free to believe that Adam and Eve were the worst sinners that ever lived if you want to.

    I have shown that the Bible doesn’t require one to hold that belief. Therefore, LDS are free to believe that Adam and Eve transgressed but did not sin.

  48. November 23, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Ralph
    It’s still a mute point however you want to rationalize it. Adam and Eve desired what was commanded them not to have. If that was all that had transpired, they still would have been guilty of not being perfect. They desired what wasn’t given to them.

    “but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” James 1:14-15 (NIV)

    “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

    James 1:14-15 (KJV)

    Spiritual adultry James 1:14-15

  49. 56 Echo
    November 24, 2010 at 4:27 am

    Echo said:

    “You are suggesting they had to eat the fruit because the fruit contained the knowledge of good and evil.”

    Ralph replied:

    “That is what God said. Believe it!”

    …………………………………………………………………………………..

    No it isn’t what God said. Read what God said more slowly. Show me where it says they had to eat the fruit. Didn’t God tell them not to eat the fruit?

    Genesis 2:17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” NIV
    Genesis 2:17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” KJV

    If God told them NOT to eat the fruit Ralph, why are you teaching everyone that they had to eat the fruit and telling me to believe it?

  50. 57 Joseph S.
    November 24, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Every time Ralph tries to quote a Bible verse, this song should be played. He learned how to use the Bible from his father below.

    Twist baby, twist.

  51. 58 Ralph Peterson
    November 24, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Your missing this verse that I have posted before.

    Gen 3:22.
    “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take ALSO of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

    Or, as the NIV puts it.
    And the LORD God said, “THE MAN HAS NOW BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take ALSO from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    God confirms that Adam and Eve did NOT know the good from the evil until AFTER they partook of the fruit.

    “You are suggesting they had to eat the fruit because the fruit contained the knowledge of good and evil.”

    That is what God said. Believe it!

  52. 59 Echo
    November 24, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Ralph, where does scripture state that they had to eat it?

  53. 60 Ralph Peterson
    November 24, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    The tree of life is called “the tree of life”. God said that “AND TAKE ALSO from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. So, what is received if one partakes of “the tree of life”?

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil is called “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”. God said of Adam and Eve, when they had partaken of the fruit of “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”, “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” So, what was received by Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”?

    Also notice the words “AND TAKE ALSO”. Clearly God is acknowledging that it was the FRUIT that provided the “knowledge of good and evil”.

    Also notice that the author of Genesis says in 3:6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE.” The author is acknowledging it as a fact that the fruit would “make one wise”.

    Is not knowledge of good and evil wisdom?

    Also notice that as soon as they had partaken of the fruit “the eyes of them both were opened, and they KNEW that they were naked”.

    Also notice what God asks them later, “Who told thee that thou wast naked? HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”

    Why would God ask that if it wasn’t the fruit that gave them the knowledge that they were naked?

  54. November 24, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    So following your logic Ralph, I should go out an fornicate in a wild orgy, because unless I do that I really won’t have the KNOWLEDGE of its consequences.

    You make the living God into nothing but an inconsiderate and trifling old pettifogger.

  55. 62 Echo
    November 24, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    “hast thou eaten of the tree, WHEREOF I OOMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT?”

    where does this verse say they had to eat it?

    And the verse that you gave where you left out the context…

    Genesis 3:22 ““Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand AND TAKE ALSO of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

    Where does this verse above say they had to eat it?

    Ralph said: “what is received if one partakes of “the tree of life”?”

    Adam and Eve, had they ate only the fruit of the tree of life, would have lived forever in pure JOY.

    Ralph said: “So, what was received by Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of “the tree of knowledge of good and evil”?

    They received , work, toil, sickness, disease, grief, pain, tears, suffering, death etc. as the direct result of desiring to usurp and rebel against Gods sovereignty by choosing to be sovereign themselves. The received exactly the opposite of what the serpent deceived them into thinking they would receive from eating that fruit. The serpent is the devil and the devil lies and deceives.

    Yes God acknowledged that they had become like he, but not in the way the serpent led them to believe. They usurped God and made themselves Sovereign. That is to say they rebelled against God and made themselves the only God they serve. So God wasn’t acknowledging that it was good. It was spiritual suicide. They could no longer be allowed to eat from the tree of life. The original sin of Adam was self-autonomous rebellion against God.

    Ralph said: “Is not knowledge of good and evil wisdom?”

    Where does the Bible say that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil CONTAINED WISDOM?
    Eve said it, but she was deceived by the serpent into saying it and she states that fact in verse 13: ““The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” But where does God himself say it?

    Adam and Eve already had TRUE wisdom and knowledge of good and evil when God told them to eat of any tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In other words, obeying God is true wisdom and knowledge for it shows that you fully trust him and his sovereignty rather than trusting in your own decisions about what is good and what is evil which is what the tree that God commanded them NOT to eat represents.

    Ralph said: “Also notice what God asks them later, “Who told thee that thou wast naked? HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?” Why would God ask that if it wasn’t the fruit that gave them the knowledge that they were naked?

    The fruit gave them the knowledge that they were naked. That is the opposite of the wisdom you claim the fruit contained.

  56. 63 Echo
    November 24, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is self-autonomous which is self-governance or governing oneself, it is claiming to be God yourself. It is self-worship, glorifying oneself and all of these things to the exclusion of God himself. It is rebellion against God.

    Which is the whole system the LDS church is built upon….

    Celebrating Adam and Eve’s refusal to listen to God is rebellion.

    Denying it was a sin is rebellion.

    Wiggling out of sin is rebellion.

    Denying God’s word through claiming it is errant, translated incorrectly etc. is rebellion

    Twisting G0d’s word is rebellion.

    Progressing to become a God yourself is rebellion.

    Earning exaltation is rebellion.

    All of these are self glorifying. Self worship. All exclude God.

    The only thing you will earn for all of this is an eternity in outer darkness.

  57. November 24, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    Echo, I’m not really sure much more can be done to try and convince Ralph that transgressing God’s commandments is sinning. He is going to stay fixed in his opinion no matter what we say unless the Holy Spirit opens his eyes to see the truth of the Bible.

    Ralph, if you do not cease from your blasphemous opinion of saying that Adam and Eve breaking God’s law was a good thing you are going to end up in hell when you die. Saying God gives contradictory commands is a pure Satanic lie.

  58. 65 Echo
    November 26, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Isaiah 5:19-21 ” WOE to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness,who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. “


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