26
Mar
11

A LITTLE WORK – A LOT OF PRESSURE

I love March Madness – the NCAA basketball tournament.  It is great seeing the players’ passion and the fans’ spirit.  And inevitably, each year, there are exciting games won with someone making a basket at the buzzer.  It’s a fun time.

But especially for the player who has to make that basket at the buzzer, it can be a time of tremendous pressure.  Imagine the following scenario.   Five seconds are left in the game.  Your team is down by one point.  If you lose, the season is over. Your coach calls time out, looks down the bench to where you are sitting, and motions you to check into the game.  As you pass him, he pulls you aside and tells you to take the last shot.  “We are counting on you.  It’s all up to you.”

Talk about pressure.  Especially if you have sat on the bench the entire game to that point.  Few people would enjoy being in that situation.  Fewer people would succeed in that situation.

But that is the position a lot of Mormons feel they are in.  It is inaccurate to say that Mormonism teaches that people are saved by their works alone.  Mormonism talks about God’s grace.  But it doesn’t teach that people are saved by grace alone. “However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient.”  (LDS Bible Dictionary)

This puts a lot of pressure on many Mormons.  I realize that some Mormons will respond to that statement with ridicule and disbelief –saying that I don’t know what I’m talking about.  But those comments do not negate the many other comments made by Mormons over the years.  Just last week a LDS woman commented on how the Mormon church’s expectations for women are “over the top” with the result that she has quit going.  (And no, she’s not lazy or looking for the easy way out.)

Pause for a moment and think of the tremendous pressure that the Mormon teaching of “total effort” exerts on many Mormons.  Imagine trying to live under that.  Even if we think that we have to contribute only 1% to our salvation – that opens the door to a whole lot of worry.  It’s like the sub coming off the bench and being told that he has to make only one basket – the winning basket.  But with one big difference.  The pressure Mormonism places on many of its adherents doesn’t last just for a few moments – it’s there for an entire lifetime.

How much better is the biblical message of Titus 3:4-7:  “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,  5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;  7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”  The comforting biblical message is that Jesus took the pressure off by doing it all for us.  This is a message more and more Mormons are hearing – and, through the work of the Holy Spirit, believing.  Thanks be to God for that.

 

 

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62 Responses to “A LITTLE WORK – A LOT OF PRESSURE”


  1. 1 Echo
    March 26, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    Good message Mark

  2. 2 Martha
    March 26, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    Mark, this sense of having to continually work to gain acceptance is so engrained in Mormons that it is difficult to shed. Even after being freed from the Mormon bondage for over 20 years I struggled with the burden of works. It was only when the true God of the Bible came and got me that I have been healed of the burden the Mormon religion teaches. It is only through Him the One and Only Soverign God that I am able to love my fellow Mormons and all people as myself. I praise Him for His loving kindness and grace to heal me of the pressure of my family’s expectations of me.
    I encourage those who want to be free of that burden to look to Jesus as your healer. He truly is the God of love and healing.

  3. 3 Martha
    March 26, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    Oh and yes I was saved through grace alone, nothing of what I did. Also, I know that I will live in the presence of God for all eternity. I know that because I already am.

  4. 4 jbr
    March 28, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    Martha,

    Thanks be to God for bringing you into his true light and forgiveness of his Son.

    John 8:36
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

  5. 5 Ralph Peterson
    March 28, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    “But that is the position a lot of Mormons feel they are in.”

    The proverbial anecdotal evidence.

    “This puts a lot of pressure on many Mormons.”

    So says a NON-Mormon, as if he would know.

    “Pause for a moment and think of the tremendous pressure that the Mormon teaching of “total effort” exerts on many Mormons.”

    Ok, . . . I am reminded of this statement by JESUS, (Matt. 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, . . .”

    Works of righteousness are not what saves you. But without them Jesus doesn’t extend His grace.

    ” . . . by the washing of regeneration,. . . ”
    Meaning Baptism.

    ” . . . and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

    Meaning the sanctification of the obedient”

    “6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”

    Yup! Through Christ’s gift of repentance.

  6. 6 Echo
    March 28, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    Ralph said: ““This puts a lot of pressure on many Mormons.” So says a NON-Mormon, as if he would know. ”

    It is Mormons who are telling Mark this! These are the Mormons who want to enter eternal life! These are not Mormons who could care less which level of heaven they end up in and who could care less about obeying God’s commandments. Of course these Mormons who could care less are the Mormons who won’t feel any pressure.

  7. 7 jbr
    March 29, 2011 at 1:41 am

    Ralph…….

    Stop with the spaghetti on the wall test. Rattling off Bible verses that LDS claims are only accurate when it fits is very convenient.

  8. 8 Kent
    March 29, 2011 at 2:26 am

    Wow, some pretty scary stuff concerning quotes from so called Mormon prophets:

    On October 9, 1859, Brigham Young said,

    “From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:289)

    “There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

    So not only do I reject the teachings of Joseph Smith, the living prophet, or any other Mormon so called prophet, I accept Jesus Christ as my only way to eternal life!
    Contrast the words of Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith with the only true savior for mankind and the only true way to eternal life, Jesus Christ Himself. Folks, if some of you think that Joseph Smith has any part in the narrow gate we must pass through, you are sadly mistaken.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

    (from Joseph Smith himself as printed in History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412)

    Sounds like Smith was boasting of his works, forbidden by the passage below, so not only does Joseph Smith have nothing to with my eternal life, everyone who comes to Mr. Cares’ blog eternal life, or anyone else who has ever lived, it looks like he has some explaining to do to God.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  9. 9 Ralph Peterson
    March 29, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    And you IGNORE those Bible verses when they are inconvenient for you.

  10. 10 Ralph Peterson
    March 29, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Well, since Joseph Smith was a Prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ, and since the Lord Jesus Christ stands behind His authorized servants, like the Prophet Joseph Smith, I don’t find a conflict with those statements.

  11. 11 Ralph Peterson
    March 29, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    I am reminded of this statement by JESUS, (Matt. 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

  12. 12 Kent
    March 30, 2011 at 2:39 am

    Folks, we either believe in Jesus and what He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” or we don’t believe what the savior of all mankind said, that He is the only way to God the Father.

    It really has dawned on me, even more so, after reading the qoutes from J.F. Smith and B. Young how important Mark Cares’ work is on reaching the lost because if people really believe that Joseph Smith, a mere man, has anything to do with our eternal destiny, then they truly are headed down the wide path of destruction.

    “There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

    On October 9, 1859, Brigham Young said,

    “From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:289)

    Ralph, you honestly don’t see any conflict between Jesus’ statement in John 14:6 about Him (Jesus) being the only way to God the Father and what J.F. Smith and B. Young said? If so, WOW!

  13. 13 Ralph Peterson
    March 30, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    None what so ever.

    Jesus gave the Apostles of old to be judges of the twelve tribes of Israel, does that conflict with the scriptures you have posted?

    Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    The answer is NO!

    Neither is it a conflict for Jesus to appoint Joseph Smith to a judge of the people of our day.

  14. 14 Kent
    March 31, 2011 at 12:53 am

    ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me and Joseph Smith’ just doesn’t work. If Jesus isn’t the only way to God the Father, then his death on the cross means nothing and we make Him out to be a liar.

  15. 15 Kent
    March 31, 2011 at 1:41 am

    The Bible, from what I havde seen, isn’t specific on what the judgement of the twelve tribes of Israel will be so it could be in regards of rewards in heaven and I don’t see it as any kind of delegation of authority to anyone else as to who comes to God the Father.

    On the other hand Brigham Young said that no man can be with Jesus or the Father without the consent of Joseph Smith. So I would say that is in direct contradition that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

    So folks, as I have said, we either believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, not just the highest heaven but heaven itself, or we don’t believe Jesus is the only way.

  16. 16 Ralph Peterson
    March 31, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    “. . . I don’t see it as any kind of delegation of authority . . . ”

    Of course not. You need to take your anti-Mormon blinders off.

    What part of “ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” or “sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” isn’t delegating more authority than “I cannot go there without his consent” or “if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”?

    You are having the same problem with Joseph Smith as the hostile non-believing Jews had with the ancient Apostles. Is that a fun club to be in?

  17. 17 Kent
    April 1, 2011 at 12:07 am

    Ralph, you left out part of what I said as I said, “The Bible, from what I havde seen, isn’t specific on what the judgement of the twelve tribes of Israel will be so it could be in regards of rewards in heaven and I don’t see it as any kind of delegation of authority to anyone else as to who comes to God the Father.”

    The part about delegation of authority as to who comes to God the Father is essential to what I said and leaving out that part of my statement is a misquote.

    Joseph Smith has nothing whatsoever to do with who comes to God the Father and anyone who teaches that he does have anything to do with it is teaching another gospel, a false gospel, warned about in Galatians 1:8.

    “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

    Again, John 14:6 says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”

    Of course, if you believe that Smith has something to do with who can be with God the Father, then why can’t you acknowledge that it is a different, but correct gospel, then what we believe?

    Mormons, I do believe you are treading on dangerous grounds if you do believe that Smith has anything to do with anyone’s eternal destiny.

  18. 18 Kent
    April 1, 2011 at 4:02 am

    Like I have said all along, we have to choose one gospel or the other. One, which I believe with all my heart and soul, that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and God the father because my Savior tells us this is the case or if someone else like Joseph Smith has to give us permission to enter into where Jesus and the Father are.

    I also believe with all my heart and soul that unless Jesus Christ is not the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to heaven and God the Father, then He died for nothing and my belief is nothing but a myth and a fable and He is made out to be a liar.

    My heart breaks for Mormons if you truly don’t believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way.

    I am out of here for a while but I hope other Christians respond to the discussion here.

  19. 19 Kent
    April 1, 2011 at 4:04 am

    I said:

    “My heart breaks for Mormons if you truly don’t believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way.”

    That should read, “for Mormons if you truly don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way.”

  20. 20 Ralph Peterson
    April 1, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    You are attempting to construct a false dichotomy. Sorry but it doesn’t work.

    Just as accepting the Apostle Peter is accepting Jesus Christ, accepting the prophet Joseph Smith IS accepting Jesus Christ.

    The problem you have is accepting the fact that the gospel revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith IS the gospel taught by Jesus Christ. Your misunderstanding of the writings of Paul not withstanding.

    The verse you like to quote in Galatians is pima facie evidence that the apostasy was well underway, EVEN WHILE the ancient Apostles were still living. The loose of authority was complete with the disappearance of the ancient Apostles.

  21. 21 Kent
    April 2, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    No one else is joining here right now so I guess I have to stick around this thread.

    Ralph said,

    “The verse you like to quote in Galatians is pima facie evidence that the apostasy was well underway, EVEN WHILE the ancient Apostles were still living. The loose of authority was complete with the disappearance of the ancient Apostles.”

    What proof do you have that there even was an apostasy or what I quote from Galatians 1 about how if anyone teaches a different gospel, let him be accursed isn’t accurate? What is your source?

    Notice how the main people who question the validity of the Bible are atheists and cults such as the Jehovah Witnesses who have their own version of the bible that contradicts key points in the mainstream Bible. But we can add the Mormons to the people who don’t believe the Bible.

    So we either believe the Bible, all of it, is the word of God and follow its teachings or we don’t and follow a different gospel that is warned about in Galatians.

    Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and God the Father, period! Joseph Smith has nothing to do with anyone’s eternal destiny as he was just a mortal man who is dead and gone and who I hope, for his sake, that God is merciful to him.

  22. 22 Kent
    April 4, 2011 at 1:03 am

    I am not referring to what Mormons would call general salvation, that we are all resurrected by Jesus dying on the cross to different levels of heaven depending how well we follow the teachings of the Mormon church. But that the only salavation, what you would call enternal life and where we would be in the presence of God the Father as well as Jesus Christ. It is the only salvation and the only way there is through Jesus Christ.

    So Mormon,you are being taught a different gospel which I hope you reject in favor of the true gospel of the Bible!

    Again, John 14:6 says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by me.” So, again, Joseph Smith has nothing to do with us being with Heavenly Father when we die.

    Jesus says He is the only way!

    Mormons, read the following passages in the Bible.

    1. Isaiah 53–which foretold of Jesus coming to take away the sins of the world ( a little lengthy for here)

    2. Romans 10:9-10–9
    “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

    But not just being resurrected to at least a lower level of heaven, even if not in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Chirst, but in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ or if you don’t believe it, eternity in hell.

    3. John 3:16-18–16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    This is the true gospel, that we either believe in Jesus and go to heaven (only one level) or we don’t believe in Him, and we go to hell, not a lower level of heaven as that is what condemned means.

    Mormons, you are being taught a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1:8

    “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

    I hope and pray you believe the true gospel of the Bible but the choice is yours.

  23. 23 Kent
    April 4, 2011 at 1:09 am

    This is my last post for sure for a while but I do hope Mormons who come here, maybe not the regulars who debate us on these topics, even though I hope they too read the Bible passages in my last post and believe them, but if not, maybe others.

    Jesus is the only way, the true gospel, and I have tried to present it to people here but it is now up to them to believe it or not.

  24. 24 Ralph Peterson
    April 4, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Kent,

    I believe EVERY ONE of those verses you quote. Not a single one of them is inconsistent with what is taught and believed in The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints.

    Mosiah 3:17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

    Mosiah 16:13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

    Alma 38:9 And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ. Behold, he is the life and the light of the world. Behold, he is the word of truth and righteousness.

    Hel. 5:9 O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.

  25. 25 Echo
    April 4, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    Ralph said: “I believe EVERY ONE of those verses you quote. Not a single one of them is inconsistent with what is taught and believed in The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints.”

    The problem is that you mean something entirely different than we do when you use those verses.

    John 14:6 says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by me.[Jesus]”

    What the LDS church means when they use that verse is that Jesus has provided a way for you to pay him back for your sins. In LDS theology, Jesus is not “THE WAY” to the Father, he has only provided “YOU” a way to the Father (“God justifieth NOT the ungodly” Romans 4:5 Joseph Smith Translation) For the LDS, that verse should be changed to the following: “I am not the way, I will show YOU the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by YOU who follow and do all these things”

    What the Bible really means by “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by me.[Jesus]” is that Jesus has forgiven you for all your sins because you are incapable of paying him back for your sins. In order to pay back your sins, you would have to suffer torment in the fires of Hell for all eternity. But since all your sins have been forgiven, Jesus is “THE WAY” to the Father, not “YOU”. No one cometh unto the Father by by Jesus! (“God justifieth the ungodly” Romans 4:5)

  26. 26 Ralph Peterson
    April 4, 2011 at 10:41 pm

    Kent,

    I would add that it is extremely rude to tell others WHAT they believe, especially why you get it WRONG.

    Echo is a perfect example of this rudeness. He continues to misrepresent and distort what Latter-Day Saints ACTUALLY believe, even after several Latter-Day Saints have explained it to him several times.

  27. 27 Kent
    April 4, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    Echo said,

    “What the Bible really means by “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by me.[Jesus]” is that Jesus has forgiven you for all your sins because you are incapable of paying him back for your sins. In order to pay back your sins, you would have to suffer torment in the fires of Hell for all eternity. But since all your sins have been forgiven, Jesus is “THE WAY” to the Father, not “YOU”. No one cometh unto the Father by by Jesus! (“God justifieth the ungodly” Romans 4:5)”

    I’ll add, again, that Joseph Smith also has nothing to do who comes to the Father, period!

    Anything else is a different gospel.

    Ralph, wasn’t it you who said that Brigham Young saying we can’t enter to where Jesus and God the Father are without the consent of Joseph Smith doesn’t contradict what Jesus said about Him (Jesus) being the only way to God the Father?

    But is seems a huge contradiction to me.

  28. 28 Echo
    April 5, 2011 at 12:09 am

    Ralph said: “I would add that it is extremely rude to tell others WHAT they believe, especially why you get it WRONG. Echo is a perfect example of this rudeness. He continues to misrepresent and distort what Latter-Day Saints ACTUALLY believe, even after several Latter-Day Saints have explained it to him several times.”

    What have I distorted?

    I said: “What the LDS church means when they use that verse is that Jesus has PROVIDED A WAY for you to pay him back for your sins.”

    From http://www.lds.org...”“Then,” said the benefactor [one who helps], “you will pay the debt to me[Jesus], and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will PROVIDE A WAY. You need not go to prison.”
    (http://lds.org/liahona/2011/04/the-mediator-jesus-christ?lang=eng&query=pay+him+back)

    Then my own response to what the LDS church teaches is that Jesus is not “THE WAY” he has only “PROVIDED A WAY” Which is EXACTLY what the LDS quote I gave above states!

  29. 29 Echo
    April 5, 2011 at 12:29 am

    Jesus said: “I AM THE WAY” he did not say: “I will provide a way”

  30. 30 Ralph Peterson
    April 5, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    Well, it may “seem” like one to you because you WANT it to be one, BUT it isn’t a contradiction at all.

    Go back and review the scriptures about the ancient apostles being judges.

  31. 31 Ralph Peterson
    April 5, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Kent,

    Like I said earlier, it is EXTREMELY rude to misrepresent and distort what other people believe. ESPECIALLY when great effort has been may by SEVERAL people to correct the misrepresentation and distortion.

    Beating up a strawman may be fun, easy, and may make you “feel” better about yourself, boost your ego and what not, but it is ineffectual in convincing any one who can think for themselves.

  32. 32 Kent
    April 5, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Ralph said,

    “Like I said earlier, it is EXTREMELY rude to misrepresent and distort what other people believe. ESPECIALLY when great effort has been may by SEVERAL people to correct the misrepresentation and distortion.

    Beating up a strawman may be fun, easy, and may make you “feel” better about yourself, boost your ego and what not, but it is ineffectual in convincing any one who can think for themselves.”

    I am not distorting anything as, again, Brigham Young said I can’t get to God the Father without Joseph Smith’s consent and if that is the case, then what Jesus Christ Himself said isn’t true about Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except by Him.

    On October 9, 1859, Brigham Young said,

    “From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:289)

    So, again, we have to choose whether we believe Jesus is the only way to God the Father or that he isn’t and that we can’t get to God the Father without Joseph Smith’s consent.

  33. 33 Kent
    April 5, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    Either Jesus Christ dying on the cross in our place and His blood took away our sins or it didn’t take away the sins of the world. Choose one belief or the other but I believe if Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third didn’t take away our sins, then He died for nothing and our faith is useless and in vain.

    “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD” (Revelation 1:5). (THE BIBLE)

    OR

    “There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220). (MORMON)

  34. 34 Ralph Peterson
    April 5, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    A FALSE dichotomy, as I have explained to you a couple of times now.

  35. 35 Ralph Peterson
    April 5, 2011 at 10:14 pm

    The SAME FALSE choice, as I have explained to you before.

    If you want to not see it, then I can’t help you. If you want to convince me of your “position” you will have to actually show why your false choice isn’t a false choice. Your simple assertion isn’t going to work.

  36. April 7, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    Ralph,
    Being that your intentions is be to an apologist for the LDS, I would suggest that when you make a statement like:

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I would add that it is extremely rude to tell others WHAT they believe, especially why you get it WRONG.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    That you need to understand whose forum you’re in.
    Then repeat your statement to yourself while looking in front of mirror.

    We aren’t interested in PPTP (ping pong talking points). Our theologians is interested in seeking those who want to be set free from the LDS ladder … not the beauty of it.

  37. 37 Ralph Peterson
    April 7, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    Are you saying that because this is an “anti-Mormon” site that it is acceptable here to TELL LDS what we believe (and getting it wrong)?

    Could you please clarify what you mean?

  38. 38 Echo
    April 7, 2011 at 11:47 pm

    Ralph said: “Are you saying that because this is an “anti-Mormon” site that it is acceptable here to TELL LDS what we believe (and getting it wrong)? Could you please clarify what you mean?”

    I will let JBR answer your question but I just wanted to make my own point.

    I just want to clarify something you are “getting wrong” Ralph for your benefit. We are not “anti-Mormon” we are “anti-Mormonism” There is a BIG difference in our minds. Whereas “anti-Mormon” suggests the idea that we hate or dislike Mormons. We neither hate nor dislike Mormons. The opposite is in fact true. We love Mormons very much, but we are against Mormon theology because we know it will destroy the souls of Mormons.

    Ralph, has the thought ever occurred to you that YOU misunderstand us when we talk about LDS theology, that you misinterpret us and/or all together aren’t seeing what we see in LDS teachings? Has the thought ever occurred to you that YOU could be the one at fault here and not us?

    The fact of the matter is that we see LDS teachings as false and destructive. We see the deception in them, we see the lie’s in them, we see the contradictions in them, and you don’t.

    Ralph, I invite all the readers to examine what we say and compare that to the the official LDS quotes WE give and I invite them to make up their own minds through that. I would also invite all the readers to examine the official LDS quotes YOU give in reply. Only “fools” could be persuaded into believing argumentation such as: “I would add that it is extremely rude to tell others WHAT they believe, especially why you get it WRONG.” I urge you to stick to quoting official LDS sources if you want to sway anyone’s mind.

  39. 39 Kent
    April 8, 2011 at 4:22 am

    Did I get it wrong that Brigham Young said that the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t wash away all sin and that he said our own blood must atone for them?

    So how is that a false choice believing either Jesus Christ’s blood washed away all the sins of the world (Bible) or His blood didn’t wash away all the sins of the world?

  40. 40 jbr
    April 8, 2011 at 6:06 pm

    Ralph,
    Sorry Ralph…this isn’t some evil plot by a few rebels to destroy the galactic empire.
    —————————————————————
    Mark Cares is not “anti-mormon”, that is simply an baseless accusation. What you are upset about is the inability to control LDS members who are wearied from the ladder of Mormonism and “do all you can do” by seaking the truth outside LDS.

    —————————————————————————–

    If I had to phrase it in your understanding …is that that you Ralph are the “anti-Mormon”

    For you oppose the first 66 revelations from God as being accurate and complete.

    For you oppose Jesus when he revealed “Come, whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.”

    Ralph….life with heavenly Father is free, not some ladder to climb.

    Yes Ralph…………you are “anti-Mormon”

  41. 41 Ralph Peterson
    April 8, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    LOL!!

    Oh, please! This is clearly an anti-Mormon site. You should embrace what you are, not try to hide it.

    Here again, you are telling me what I am upset about, AND GETTING IT WRONG!!!

    The existence of Mark Cares ministry isn’t what upsets me at all.

    What upsets me is being told what I believe, AND GETTING IT WRONG. I have told you this already and YET YOU STILL GET IT WRONG!

    Actually, Mormonism is more consistent wit the “first 66 revelations from God” than ANY OTHER THEOLOGY.

    So, I am not only PRO-Mormon, I am PRO God’s revelation.

  42. 42 Ralph Peterson
    April 8, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    “Did I get it wrong that Brigham Young said that the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t wash away all sin and that he said our own blood must atone for them?”

    I have looked over this thread and I can’t find where you said this. Are you trying to deceive me?

    I notice that you don’t have quote marks, so I am assuming that you aren’t actually quoting Brigham Young at all. Perhaps you could provide an actual quote, IN CONTEXT with reference.

  43. 43 Echo
    April 8, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    Ralph said: “Oh, please! This is clearly an anti-Mormon site.”

    Both myself and jbr have just told you we are NOT anti-Mormon and you turn around and tell us we are anti-Mormon. We believe we are not anti-Mormon and here you are telling us what we believe and getting it all wrong! You are doing the very same thing you condemn us as being “rude” for doing!

    Aren’t you then being “rude” (those are your words)? Don’t YOUR OWN words condemn you?

    We don’t condemn you as being rude for getting our beliefs wrong. So don’t condemn us if you feel we are getting your beliefs wrong. Your own condemnation of us is what condemns you here and now.

    Jesus teaches that you should take the log out of your own eye before attempting to take the speck out of someone else’s eye. Another sin of yours to add to the ever increasing list and ever increasing debt you owe to YOUR LDS Creditor named Jesus.

    No unclean person can enter GOD’S presence Ralph, your sins make you unclean. I will remind you that the Father is GOD, the son is GOD and the Holy Spirit is GOD. And since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit reside each in one of your 3 Heavenly Kingdoms of glory, you are not fit to enter any of those kingdoms as long as you remain unclean. Overcome your sins Ralph! ALL OF THEM. DO IT NOW! Don’t procrastinate!

    He who sins HATES God… Jesus said If you love him you will obey ALL his commandments. You don’t love him Ralph, your sins make that obvious.

    Gal 3:10 ” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Ralph, you are cursed because you don’t do everything written in the book of the law.

    In fact Ralph, you are guilty of breaking God’s ENTIRE law!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking ALL OF IT.”

    Don’t you know that anyone who breaks God’s entire law (by stumbling at just one small point) is an apostate and a wicked man who will end up in outer darkness for eternity?

    Alma 34:35 from the BOM says this to YOU:

    “For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

    Go ahead and save yourself from your sins Ralph! Jesus isn’t “the way” for you, he has only “provided a way” for you. What are you waiting for? Why are you procrastinating overcoming your sins?

    YOU ARE THE WAY! Your Jesus is not the way! Live what you believe! Jesus isn’t your Savior, YOU are! He is only your creditor! Save yourself! Pay your creditor back!

    That’s what happens when you have a Jesus who is a Creditor for sin rather than a Savior from sin.

    We who believe in the Bible alone have been saved from and are kept safe from all of the above through Jesus our Savior from sin. We don’t have a Creditor for sin, we have a Savior who paid our debt in full and doesn’t ask us to pay him back anything. Mathew 18:21-35 shows and says that the debt has been cancelled.

    So take the fingers of pride, revenge, hatred, mocking, slander, rebellion etc. out of your ears and try and listen. Try and understand. Because It is YOUR own evil heart and the wickedness within yourself that deceives you into seeing us as being anti-Mormon. Stop spitting in our faces and you will come to see just how much we really love Mormons.

  44. 44 Kent
    April 9, 2011 at 1:32 am

    Ralph, I said:

    ‘either Jesus Christ dying on the cross in our place and His blood took away our sins or it didn’t take away the sins of the world. Choose one belief or the other but I believe if Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third didn’t take away our sins, then He died for nothing and our faith is useless and in vain.

    “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD” (Revelation 1:5). (THE BIBLE)

    OR

    “There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220). (MORMON)’

    This is what I was referring to regarding Brigham Young saying Jesus’ blood not atoning for our sins. Because either Jesus’ blood atoned for all of our sins or His blood atoned for none of our sins.

    Ralph and others, just accept Jesus’ free gift that none of us can repay. His death on the cross paid for all of our sins just believe it and it will set you free for eternity!

  45. 45 Kent
    April 9, 2011 at 6:44 am

    And accepting Jesus’ free gift that he gave us all on the cross will set you free now as well as for eternity!

    So abide in Him and He will carry you in His loving arms in this life and the life to come or stuggle to climb the ladder that you impose on yourself that is doomed to failure.

  46. 46 Ralph Peterson
    April 11, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    Still stuck on your false dichotomy.

    Brigham Young is referring to those that are also described in Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Does Jesus’ blood atone for their sins, or do they suffer for their own sins?

  47. 47 Echo
    April 11, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Kent,

    Could you provide the context or a link to the context of the quote you gave? Re ““There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ”

    Or have you read the entire context yourself from a non internet source such as a book etc?

  48. 48 Ralph Peterson
    April 11, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    Brigham Young “There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt.”

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, . . .

    Brigham Young “The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . .”

    Heb 10:26 . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    The author of Hebrews is agreeing with Brigham Young.

  49. 49 Echo
    April 11, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    Ralph, Let’s see if Kent has the context of the LDS quote he gave you, or if he has read the context himself. If he hasn’t read the context himself, then I agree with you that he shouldn’t be using that quote in the way he has.

    I myself have never read the context of that particular quote so I don’t want to comment on it or use that quote myself in discussions with Mormons until I have read the context myself. (I may question a Mormon about that quote) I would rather give you (Ralph and all Mormons) the benefit of the doubt as to knowing the context and what it is referring to until I myself have read the context. Until then, I would give Mormons the benefit of the doubt over and above that of any Christians.

  50. 50 Echo
    April 11, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    I just want to suggest to all the NON LDS posting here. In your discussions with Mormons here and elsewhere, it is never good to use LDS quotes at anytime with any Mormon, without having first read the context for YOURSELF. Do not believe other Christians, do not believe what anyone says, do not believe me, until you have read the context for yourself. Read the context for yourself BEFORE you ever use a quote. If you havn’t read the context yourself, Please, please let the Mormon you are talking to tell you the context and what that quote means and believe what they say until you have read the context for yourself.

  51. 51 Kent
    April 12, 2011 at 11:41 pm

    I got this online from this link that has Brigham Young’s sermon on blood atonement. That is where I took the quote from that is in my other posts.

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol3p243_249brighambloodatonement.htm

    “You say, “That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God.” Let me suppose a case. SUPPOSE YOU FOUND YOUR BROTHER IN BED WITH YOUR WIFE, AND PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH BOTH OF THEM, YOU WOULD BE JUSTIFIED, AND THEY WOULD ATONE FOR THEIR SINS, AND BE RECEIVED INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I WOULD AT ONCE DO SO IN SUCH A CASE; AND UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES, I HAVE NO WIFE WHOM I LOVE SO WELL THAT I WOULD NOT PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH HER HEART, AND I WOULD DO IT WITH CLEAN HANDS. But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged.

    Every man and women has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.
    Again, suppose the parties are, not caught in their iniquity, and it passes along unnoticed, shall I have compassion on them? Yes, I will have compassion on them, for transgressions of the nature already named, or for those of any other description. If the Lord so order it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do.
    There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WILL NEVER WIPE THAT OUT, YOUR OWN BLOOD MUST ATONE FOR IT; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants.”

    Yes, it appears to match what the writer in Hebrews was saying however, Brigham Young says he would be justified in killing his brother and his wife if he caught them in the act of adultery so even though he himself would be committing the sin of murder in the heat of his own passion but, at least in his own mind, they would be atoning for their sin by the shedding of their own blood.

    So he, in the height of passion, would not give them a chance to repent and turn away from their sin and he would see nothing wrong with his own actions, the sin of murder?

    If they did repent and turn away from their sin of adultery, the blood of Christ would atone for their sin.

    Either Jesus’ death on the cross took away all of the sins of the world or it took away none of the sins of the world.

    Suppose the other scenario Young used in his sermon was the case and the brother and the wife were not caught in adultery but they did repent and turn away from the sin. I believe that even if it wasn’t known to anyone else but to God and them, that they would be justified by Jesus’ blood on the cross if they went and sinned no more.

    What a contradiction between the Mormon prophet Brigham Young who would have executed judgement and who would have cast the first stone, so to speak, at his brother and his wife caught in adultery with each other and the true master, Jesus Christ who told the men who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery to death that whoever was without sin should cast the first stone and that he told her go and sin no more.

    “SUPPOSE YOU FOUND YOUR BROTHER IN BED WITH YOUR WIFE, AND PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH BOTH OF THEM, YOU WOULD BE JUSTIFIED, AND THEY WOULD ATONE FOR THEIR SINS, AND BE RECEIVED INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I WOULD AT ONCE DO SO IN SUCH A CASE; AND UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES, I HAVE NO WIFE WHOM I LOVE SO WELL THAT I WOULD NOT PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH HER HEART, AND I WOULD DO IT WITH CLEAN HANDS”

    OR

    John 8:2-11

    2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
    3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
    4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, HE THAT IS WITHOUT SIN AMONG YOU, LET HIM FIRST CAST A STONE AT HER.
    8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
    10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
    11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, NEITHER DO I CONDEMN THEE: GO, AND SIN NO MORE.

  52. 52 Kent
    April 12, 2011 at 11:51 pm

    Yes Brigham Young did say in the passage from my last post the following:

    “But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged.

    Every man and women has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.”

    But I maintain that he wouldn’t be without sin if he drove a javelin through the heart of his wife and his brother caught in adultery, especially if he didn’t give them a chance to repent and turn away from their sin. So he wouldn’t have the right to ‘cast the first stone.’

    He though would be justified in divorcing his wife but not in killing her.

  53. 53 Ralph Peterson
    April 13, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Nothing like jumping in the middle and missing IMPORTANT CONTEXT!

    Just two (previous) additional paragraphs will help.

    “I mention this to inform the people, that they may understand what they should do with regard to the law of God, and the transgression thereof. The law is very strict; AND IN THIS CONGREGATION there are men and women who, with uplifted hands to heaven, BEFORE THE FATHER, THE SON, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS, MADE SOLEMN COVENANTS THAT THEY NEVER WOULD DO THUS AND SO. For example, one obligation is, “I will never have anything to do with any of the daughters of Eve, unless they are given to me of the Lord.” MEN WILL CALL GOD TO WITNESS THAT THEY NEVER WILL TRANSGRESS THIS LAW, AND PROMISE TO LIVE A VIRTUOUS LIFE, so far as intercourse with females is concerned; but what can you see? A year will not pass away before some few of them are guilty of creeping into widows’ houses, and into bed with the wives of their brethren, debauching one woman here, and another there. DO WE ENFORCE UPON THEM THE STRICT PENALTY OF THE LAW? NOT YET. I hope their conduct arises from their ignorance, but let me transgress my covenant, and the case would be different. I want to live as long as I can, on the earth, but I would not like to live to violate my covenants; I would rather go behind the vail before doing so.

    “A few of the men and women who go into the house of the Lord, and receive their endowments, AND IN THE MOST SACRED MANNER MAKE COVENANTS BEFORE THE ALMIGHTY, GO AND VIOLATE THOSE COVENANTS. Do I have compassion on them? Yes, I do have mercy on them, for there is something in their organization which they do not understand; and there are but few in this congregation who do understand it.

    “You say, “That man OUGHT to die for transgressing the law of God.” . . .”

    Brigham Young is talking about people that willingly made more solemn and serious covenants WITH GOD than the women taken in adultery before Jesus. Also notice that those that brought the women before Jesus didn’t bring the man. Where was the MAN? The woman didn’t commit adultery by herself. It was an OBVIOUS travesty of justice to stone the woman and leave the man unscathed.

    In the example Brigham Young gave no such travesty of justice was in play.

  54. 54 Echo
    April 13, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Ralph,

    Here is what I got out of the article…

    The article is NOT saying that Jesus doesn’t atone for sin, Jesus does atone for sin. But it is saying that Jesus doesn’t atone for sin WHEN a person has violated their covenants with God.

    Are you in agreement with that Ralph?

  55. 55 Kent
    April 13, 2011 at 11:09 pm

    Echo, the problem I have with Mr. Young’s statement is that there is no place for repentance and forgiveness and while yes, if someone breaks God’s laws without repentance, then Jesus’ blood would not atone for that person’s sin however, the part about Mr. Young saying, if he caught his wife and his brother in adultery, that he would be justified in killing them and that there own blood would atone for their sins is very disturbing.

    If his statement didn’t have the part about him running through the hearts of his wife and her lover with a javelin, then I would agree with what he was saying and no I don’t believe I am taking anything out of context. For him to suggest that flat out physically executing the death penalty on them and that his own hands would be clean is just plan wrong.

    What about Mr. Young’s sin of murder if the hypothectical scenario of him killing his wife andher lover did in fact occur?

  56. 56 Echo
    April 14, 2011 at 1:34 am

    Kent,

    In your post #34 and 44, I got the distinct impression that you meant that the LDS believes they themselves must atone for “ALL” sin. Keep in mind that I read post 34 and 44 before reading the link you gave that contains the context of the quote you gave.

    In post 44 you wrote: “This is what I was referring to regarding Brigham Young saying Jesus’ blood not atoning for our sins.”

    That “sounds” as though you meant “all”sins because you didn’t explain what you meant. Perhaps Ralph misunderstood it just as I did. But I see now what you meant now that you have explained it more clearly in post 55.

    And I agree with you that no man is justified in killing anyone even in the situation of having caught his wife and brother in adultery.

    I also agree with you that the blood of the adulterers could NEVER atone for their own sins. Nobody can atone for their own sins. Only the sinless sacrifice of Jesus can atone for any sins.

    I also agree with you that adulterers should have the opportunity for repentance and forgiveness.

    However I disagree with you when you said: “…if someone breaks God’s laws without repentance, then Jesus’ blood would not atone for that person’s sin”
    I believe that Jesus’ blood has already atoned for ALL the sins of all the people of the world, even the sins of the unrepentant…

    Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

    2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ” All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

    The unrepentant themselves alone reject that Christ has already atoned for their sins and in doing so, they forfeit atonement for their sins even though their sins were atoned for.

    Now that I am thinking about this more though, the LDS does atone (“Atone” by our definition not the LDS definition) for ALL their own sins. Not just the sins this LDS article talks about. Repentance to them includes overcoming their sins (“repentance by LDS definition not by our definition). In that way they atone for their own sins and Jesus doesn’t atone for any of their sins at all. (again… “atone” by our definition not by the LDS definition) (I put this info in brackets for the LDS readers otherwise they will jump on me and say: “We believe Jesus atoned for our sins! You are getting our beliefs all wrong!” My point is that by our definition of atone, Mormons atone for their own sins and not Jesus but I also recognize that Mormons believe Jesus atoned for their sins –by their own definition of atone)

  57. 57 Echo
    April 14, 2011 at 2:04 am

    For anyone unaware of the difference between Mormon definition of atonement and Christian definition of Atonement here is a clip from http://www.lds.org explaining the LDS belief about atonement…

    “Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged …Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we ”apply the atoning blood of Christ“ (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

    For the LDS, an overview of the atonement basically means that everyone will be resurrected from the dead to face the judgment.

    Mormons are now responsible for their own sins and must “repent” and do all these other things listed above(for Mormons, “repent” by definition includes overcoming your sins) A Mormon isn’t forgiven until they overcome their sins first.

    For Christians, an overview of the meaning of atonement basically means that all our sins have already been forgiven even before we overcome them.

    Two very different definitions!

    And by our definition, (not the LDS definition), Mormons atone for all their own sins rather than Jesus atoning for any of their sins. By Christian definition, that is the unbelief that the bible condemns. Mormons who die believing this will not survive the judgment and will go to outer darkness forever. That is our greatest concern for Mormons. So we try to speak this truth in love for Mormons so they can avoid the fate that awaits them.

    This is why Christians say to Mormons… Jesus said HE IS THE WAY but Mormonism teaches that YOU(Mormons) ARE THE WAY not Jesus. And of course, if Mormons aren’t willing to try to understand what we are saying because they spend all of their time getting defensive instead of listening to us carefully and chatting with us peacefully and believing that we do care, they will never know what we are saying when it could have saved their souls from outer darkness.

  58. 58 Kent
    April 14, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Echo, what I meant is that although Jesus’ blood has already atoned for all our sins, we have to repent and believe in Him and that he did it for us if not, then we are danger of the judgement. Otherwise everyone would go to heaven and no one would go to hell.

    My other point is that either Jesus died to take away all of our sins and His death on the cross did it all for us and who believe on His name are saved, or His death means nothing if our own blood ever has to atone for any of our sins.

    I have to find the quote where Brigham Young questions that a murderer who is about to be executed can be saved. I don’t want to make a statement on that yet as I have to read what he said about it.

    I believe that even a murderer, if he truly repents even though he would executed for his crime, would still go to heaven.

    I see the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom who probably committed henious crimes but did go to heaven because he repented and believed in Jesus before his death is an example of this.

  59. 59 Kent
    April 14, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    Echo, I could have worded this part better.

    I said, “the problem I have with Mr. Young’s statement is that there is no place for repentance and forgiveness and while yes, if someone breaks God’s laws without repentance, then Jesus’ blood would not atone for that person’s sin”

    So what I said in my last post about Jesus atoning for all our sins but we have to repent and believe it better reflects what I was trying to say. So I agree with what you were saying regarding Jesus even dying for the unrepentant.

  60. 60 Ralph Peterson
    April 14, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    I take it then that this also causes you grief.

    Ex. 21:28 ¶ If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
    29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, AND HIS OWNER ALSO SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH.

    Oop! No room for repentance.

    Num 15:32 ¶ And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, AND STONED HIM with stones, and HE DIED; as the Lord commanded Moses.

    Oop! No room for repentance.

    1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

    Oop! No room for repentance.

    Obviously, Brigham Young was not as blood thirsty as Moses, or Elijah. Or the Lord for that matter.

    The God of the Bible was very willing to justify the killing of sinners as a lesson to all of the importance of obedience. Some Christians still believe that obedience to God is still important to God, that God hasn’t changed. Others, not so much.

    To quote Bonhoeffer, famous Christian martyr, victim of the NAZIs, “Faith without works is not faith at all, but a simple lack of obedience to God.”

  61. 61 Echo
    April 14, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Ralph quoted: “Num 15:32 ¶ And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, AND STONED HIM with stones, and HE DIED; as the Lord commanded Moses.”

    Ralph, does the LDS Church stone or murder all the LDS people who get caught working or doing anything on the Sabbath? Have you obeyed this command not to do any work or do anything on the Sabbath?
    I guess the LDS doesn’t believe that obedience to God is still important. And don’t forget this ….”Oops! NO room for repentance” for the LDS.

    Proverbs 26:5 “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.”

  62. 62 Echo
    April 15, 2011 at 4:36 am

    Thanks for the clarifications Kent. I hope you will do me the same kindness of pointing out to me when my words aren’t clear. That way the readers will get the most out of what we say.


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