10
May
11

Godly Boldness

I have sometimes wondered what the Old Testament high priest was thinking when he woke up the morning of the Day of Atonement.  He had to be excited seeing what a special day it was.  It was the only day of the year that he could enter the Holy of Holies in the temple.  And he was the only person who could enter it!  One man – one day a year.  It had to be one of the most highly restricted areas in the history of the world.

There was only one object in the Holy of Holies – the Ark of the Covenant.  TheArksymbolized the presence of God.  By so severely restricting access to the Holy of Holies God was teaching a valuable lesson – that sin had separated man from God.  This was emphasized by the fact that anybody, including the high priest, who entered the Holy of Holies on any other day would die.  Even on the Day of Atonement, when the high priest could enter, he had to do so by sprinkling blood before him.  The blood “gained” him access.

Imagine being that high priest that morning.  Excited, but probably also a little apprehensive.  Especially when, according to tradition, a rope was tied around one of his legs to drag him out in the event he would die.  I have to imagine he didn’t go very boldly through the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from theHoly Place.

The writer to the Hebrews had that background in mind when he penned this most amazing section.  “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter the holiest by the blood of Jesus.  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (10:19-20).  Now we have access to God!  Now we can approach God confidently and boldly.  All because of Jesus.  His blood gained access for us.  That is the significance of the veil of the temple tearing in two at the moment of his death.  The Holy of Holies of God’s presence is no longer highly restricted.

Over the years, numerous Mormons have been puzzled and even taken aback by how confident I am that I am going to live with Heavenly Father forever.  Some have questioned me about it – some have flat out told me I was dead wrong.  Not that many identified with me.  I would say that most felt that my confidence bordered on being naïve.

In contrast, many Christians identify with that confidence and exhibit that same confidence in Christ.

The contrast between the two is, for me, a striking evidence of the differences between Mormonism and Christianity.

Advertisements

70 Responses to “Godly Boldness”


  1. 1 Ralph Peterson
    May 10, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Saul was confident in his persecution of Christians too.

  2. 2 Echo
    May 10, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    Saul was confident in his persecution of Christians. He thought that in and through his persecuting Christians, and doing other things to make himself worthy, that he was gaining brownie points before God, as if access to the most Holy Place (God the Father’s presence) depended on what he himself did. Later on he referred to every effort he made in this regard as: “Rubbish”. God revealed to Saul that entrance into the Most Holy Place (God the Father’s presence) wasn’t dependant on what he(Saul) himself did, It was dependant on what Jesus alone did.

    As the Bible states, we have “boldness” to enter the Most Holy Place(God the Father’s presence). “Boldness” is confidence.

    When Saul was persecuting Christians, he never had that “confidence”. He was working towards gaining that confidence on his own through what he himself did. He was trusting in his own actions rather than trusting in the actions of Jesus.

    When the veil was torn in two because of what Jesus alone did. That gave us confidence (Boldness) to stand before the throne of God and in our heavenly Father’s presence. Our sins no longer separating us from God.

    For Mormons, the veil remains. For Mormons, sin still separates them from God. For Mormons, there is no boldness, no confidence to enter into the presence of God the Father. Mormons are walking in Saul’s shoes.

  3. 3 Kent
    May 11, 2011 at 2:20 am

    In the other thread Shem said that verses in Romans 10 meant heading to salvation but not going directly to salvation, that unto means towards and while this is one use of the word, the use of the word unto was incorrect in the context of the verse as unto can also mean going directly to something.

    It is clear that “believeth unto rightouesness” and “unto salvation” means in the context of the earlier verses here in Romans 10 that it is talking about going directly to faith by the blood of Jesus and by His rising from the dead on the third day and that establishing our own rightouesness (the Mormon way) is not submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God but is relying on the righteousness of ourselves which is doomed to failure as none of us can ever live up to the sinless perfection required to be in the presence of Heavenly Father.

    But the Good News (the Gospel) is that, as Mr. Cares points out, we can now be in the presence of Heavenly Father because of Jesus’ blood that was shed on the cross which lets us be in His presence forever to those of us who believe in Him!

    Mormons, please read the following passages from Romans 10 and have faith that they are correct. You are not bound to follow the law to perfection if you trust in Jesus and believe in what He did on the cross in your place.

    Romans 10:1-13

    1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3FOR THEY BEING IGNORANT OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED THEMSELVES UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
    4FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH.
    5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION.
    11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  4. 4 Kent
    May 11, 2011 at 4:30 am

    I want to make sure that the context of what Shem said about Romans 10 and the word unto is correct.

    Shem said, “In this passage I would also point out the term “unto” which would indicate a movement to, not a instant replacement. In other words, faith on the heart will lead us into righteousness, it will not make us righteous.”

    But, as I said, the context of Romans 10 is using the word unto as going directly to something not moving towards something, which is an alternate usage of the word.

    Romans 10:10 “FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION.”

    So we become righteous, not just head toward righteousness, through Jesus’ blood and we receive salvation, not just head towards salvation, by confessing Jesus with our mouth.

    But salvation means saving us from outer darkness (Hell) so that we can be in the presence of Heavenly Father forever (the Bible) as opposed to just enabling us to rise again after we die with a chance to progress to be righteous enough to someday, maybe hundreds or thousands of years off in the future, to maybe be in the presence of Heavenly Father (Mormon).

    Queation for Shem, but doesn’t the Mormon concept of salvation mean being able to live in the afterlife? So wouldn’t the word unto mean going directly to salvation even in your definition of salvation, having a chance to progress to someday be in the presence of Heavenly Father?

  5. 5 Kent
    May 11, 2011 at 7:19 am

    I think Mormons are surprised that we can truly believe that we will be with Heavenly Father when we die is because when we say saved we don’t just mean from physical death but we mean what they would consider Eternal Life and yes, it is that simple, that Jesus Christ blood on the cross and His rising from the dead on the third day gives us this Eternal Life to all of us who believe on the only name under heaven that saves us (Eternal Life) but minus being gods of of our own planets, if it even is possible to ever progress to be worthy enough on our own merits.

    So also when we quote things like from Matthew where in the resurrection we will be like the angels in heaven we mean that we when we receive Eternal life (the resurrection) we will be like the angels, created beings, who worship God but don’t become gods.

    In addition, sorry to Mormons, but something you consider so important, your temple, is not needed as the blood of Jesus is all you need to be saved (Eternal Life).

    So it is all about Jesus and the cross as that is all we will ever need and that is why we have assurance we will be with Heavenly Father as it is Jesus’s merits and our faith in Him which gets us there.

  6. 6 jbr
    May 11, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    It shouldn’t come as too big of a surprise when the platform of your faith begins with is:

    *** “Man cannot be redeemed from this spiritual death by an act of Christ alone..” ***

    We have a Savior who didn’t have “a rope was tied around one of his legs to drag him out in the event he would die”.

    There is no more veil …. that is the good news.

  7. 7 Martha
    May 12, 2011 at 4:10 am

    It’s an Interesting thing about this post. I just had a conversation with a LDS member just a few days ago. It concerned this very topic. The woman stated that she was “resigned” to thinking that she will probably go to the terrestrial kingdom. That she would never be good enough to go to the celestial kingdom.

    I asked if she would be in the presence of God. She didn’t think so. I told her “I know I am going to be in the presence of God. I know that because I already am.”

    She stated that there were different levels.

    I believe the definition of the difference between heaven and hell is whether you are in the presence of Heavenly Father. If you are in His presence, you are in heaven. If you are not, you are in hell.

    She stated, “well hell isn’t really the fiery depths, it’s your guilt that you didn’t do enough to be in his presence. “

    Revelation 20:15
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    As Kent stated previously, it states in Romans 10:9-10

    Romans 10:9-10
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Therefore, if you call upon Jesus Christ as your savior and Lord, and believe He was raised from the dead, you will be in His presence – now and for all eternity. If you don’t (you won’t have your name in the book of life), you will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Black and White! There are no levels. You are either in His presence or not. If you are not in His presence on this earth when you die, you will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Is it really worth all the struggle and burden to try to make it to the celestial kingdom knowing you probably aren’t going to be good enough to make it? Wouldn’t it just be easier to admit you are a sinner, believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord, invite Him into your heart now, ask for His forgiveness (which he will freely and immediately give), and have a beautiful relationship with God.

    The second choice will allow you to BOLDLY be in the Holy of Holies whenever and wherever you call upon your Lord. At that moment the veil will be torn between you and God, your name will be entered into the book of life and you will begin a great adventure with God. Give it a try.

  8. 8 Kent
    May 14, 2011 at 6:03 am

    After reading some testimony from ex Mormons I am even more convinced that Mr. Cares really has such an important ministry and I am honored if I can add to the work he is doing even in the slightest way.

    Mormons, I hope you take the time and read why these people left their church. Try to keep an open mind.

    http://www.exmormon.org/whylft12.htm

    http://www.exmormon.org/whyileft.htm

  9. 9 Kent
    May 15, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    Here is part of a letter from an ex Mormon in 1993 to the Mormon Church requesting that his name be removed from the church membership rolls. One of the reasons he gave was that the Mormon Church teaches that there are many gods when the Bible teaches there is just one God and, ironically, even the Book of Mormon teaches that there is just one God and while I disagree with a lot of what the BOM teaches, I would agree with it on this one point.

    http://www.exmormon.org/whylft12.htm

    “I am concerned about discrepancies between what the Church teaches, and the teachings of the Bible. The Mormon church teaches that there are many Gods. The Bible teaches that there is one only. Joseph Smith taught “that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father,” and that “you may suppose that He had a Father also.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) Orson Pratt said, “If we should take a million worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.” (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, page 345) The Bible teaches throughout it’s pages of there being only one God. Even the Book of Mormon teaches monotheism:

    “And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea there is a true and living God. Now, Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.” Alma 11:26-30

    “…I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” 3 Nephi 9:18

    “so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:6

    ” …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isaiah 46:9

    “…Is there any God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8

    “Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein…” Nehemiah 9:6

    The God who made the universe says he is LORD alone. I believe he leaves no room for doubt. If God had a father wouldn’t he know of him? If there really were other Gods why is there no mention of them in the Book of Mormon or the Bible? The message God sends time and time again is that he is the only God.

    The Mormon Church teaches heretically that man can become a God, and that God was once a man. Joseph Smith taught, “First God himself who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret…. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity…. God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did,… You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves;…No man can learn you more than what I have told you.” This teaching is one of the root evils of Mormonism. Think about it- isn’t this very idea, that man can work his way up to being a God, a major tenant of humanism and new age belief? Think about it again- where is the first place in the Bible that one finds the idea of a man becoming like God? It was whispered by the serpent to Eve; saying eat of the apple and “…ye shall be as gods…”(Genesis 3:5) This was not whispered as a good thing, but as an enticement by the father of lies himself! The Bible does not teach about a changing God who once was a man, once died, and once sinned. It does not teach that a man can become a God. It teaches exactly the opposite. Again the Book of Mormon is in agreement:

    “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” Moroni 8:18

    “For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting,..” Moroni 7:22

    “Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them. For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?” Mormon 9:8,9

    “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8

    “(God has)…no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:17

    ” …I am God, and not man…” Hosea 11:9

    “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6

    “God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…” Numbers 23:19

    “O LORD are you not from everlasting?…” Habakkuk 1:12

    “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalms 90:2

    “I the LORD do not change…” Malachi 3:6

    “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD…before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10″

    Please, don’t just ignore what this man has to say just because, in your view, that he is an apostate. Please examine the points he makes about there being just one God and his other reasons why he left the Mormon Church in his letter that you can access through the link at the top of this post.

    Mormons, believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross in our place and how He rose again on the third day and you will be saved, and not just from physical death with the chance to someday, maybe in the distant future, be in the presence of Heavenly Father, but you can be in the presence of Heavenly Father for eternity and good works will follow here on earth from that and you will do them because of your love for Him and not because you have to prove yourself worthy.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he
    hath sent.

    Again, saved from Romans 10 below means to be in the presence of Heavenly Father.

    Romans 10:9-10,13

    “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    John 3:16

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    Finally, everlasting life means what Mormons would consider eternal life so whoever believes in Him (Jesus) will be in the presence of Heavenly Father for eternity. So can know now, just have faith and call on the name of the Lord!

    Today is the day of salvation!

  10. 10 Echo
    May 15, 2011 at 11:00 pm

    “The only anti-Mormon literature I ever read was the Bible”~ Micah Wilder (became an Ex Mormon, now Christian, after reading the Bible)

  11. 11 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 2:28 am

    Link to the context of the quote

  12. 12 Kent
    May 16, 2011 at 4:23 am

    Wow! Powerful testimony from young Mr. Wilder. Mormons, like the person I quoted from the letter to the Mormon Church of the man who asked to be taken off of the church membership rolls, please, don’t just dismiss Wilder as an apostate and ignore his new testimony as a Christian and listen to what he has to say.

  13. 13 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    That was part 2. Here is part 1

  14. 14 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    “The Mormon Church teaches heretically that . . . God was once a man.”

    So Jesus was never a man?

    What Bible are you reading?

  15. 15 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    “The Mormon Church teaches heretically that man can become a God . . . ”

    This Christian teaching is not unique to LDS theology.

    From, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_%28Christian%29

    “In Christian theology, Divinization, deification, making divine or theosis is the transforming effect of divine grace.[1] This concept of salvation is historical and fundamental for Christian understanding that is prominent in the Eastern Orthodox Church and also in the Catholic Church.[2][3]”

    From, http://people.bethel.edu/~rakrob/files/THEOSIS2.html

    “While the concept of theosis has roots in the ante-Nicene period, it is not an antiquated historical curiosity. The idea of divinization, of redeemed human nature somehow participating in the very life of God, is found to a surprising extent throughout Christian history, although it is practically unknown to the majority of Christians (and even many theologians) in the West. In Orthodox theology, however, it is the controlling doctrine.”

  16. 16 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    “The Mormon Church teaches heretically that man can become a God . . . ”

    This Christian teaching is not unique to LDS theology.

    From, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_%28Christian%29

    “In Christian theology, Divinization, deification, making divine or theosis is the transforming effect of divine grace.[1] This concept of salvation is historical and fundamental for Christian understanding that is prominent in the Eastern Orthodox Church and also in the Catholic Church.[2][3]”

    From, people.bethel.edu/~rakrob/files/THEOSIS2.html

    “While the concept of theosis has roots in the ante-Nicene period, it is not an antiquated historical curiosity. The idea of divinization, of redeemed human nature somehow participating in the very life of God, is found to a surprising extent throughout Christian history, although it is practically unknown to the majority of Christians (and even many theologians) in the West. In Orthodox theology, however, it is the controlling doctrine.”

  17. 17 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    “Think about it again- where is the first place in the Bible that one finds the idea of a man becoming like God? It was whispered by the serpent to Eve; saying eat of the apple and “…ye shall be as gods…”(Genesis 3:5) This was not whispered as a good thing, but as an enticement by the father of lies himself!”

    Another classic (and ignorant) misrepresentation. One of Satan’s methods is to tell a truth to cover a lie. Gen 3 is a perfect example.

    First the lie, 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Then the truth, 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Yes, it was the truth, 22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    Notice that God doesn’t say it is a bad thing to be like Him.

    Are there any verses at all, that tell us we shouldn’t be like Jesus?

  18. 18 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    The Bible teaches there are multiple gods (divine beings).

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

  19. 19 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    Ralph said:”So Jesus was never a man?”

    No. Jesus was never a man.

    If Jesus were a man, things would have been made before he was born. The Bible teaches that ALL THINGS were made by Jesus…

    John 1:1-3 “In the BEGINNING was the Word(Jesus), and the Word(Jesus) was with God, and the Word(Jesus) was God. He(Jesus) was with God in the beginning. THROUGH HIM(Jesus) ALL THINGS WERE MADE; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    John 1:14 ” The Word(Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Col 1:17 “And he(Jesus) is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

    John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, **I AM.**

    Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel(Jesus); whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.”

    Heb 7:2 “… WITHOUT THE BEGINNING OF DAYS or end of life, LIKE THE SON OF GOD he remains a priest forever.”

    Ralph said: “Notice that God doesn’t say it is a bad thing to be like Him. Are there any verses at all, that tell us we shouldn’t be like Jesus?”

    It’s not a bad thing to be like him. It’s a good thing in fact. In Eden, before the Fall, Adam and Eve were like God, they were sinless and not subject to death. But Adam was not a God, Eve was not a God…

    Gen 1:26:28 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

    Even when God said that Man had **become like one of us**, Adam was NOT God. Eve was NOT God…

    Genesis 3:22 “And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    When God creates the new heaven and earth after the final judgment, we will not be God’s ourselves, but we will continue to be “MEN” and “PEOPLE” God will be our God…

    Rev 21:3-4 “And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with **MEN**, and he will live with them. They will be his **PEOPLE**, AND GOD HIMSELF WILL BE WITH THEM AND BE THEIR GOD. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    One God, always existing, now and forever…

    Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”

    The Bible does not teach that we will become God’s. The passages the LDS uses to support that claim are misinterpreted.

    You gave some links that support your position, however my adivce would be to trust what the Bible says as it is the final authority on all matters pertaining to God.

  20. 20 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    “the MAN Christ Jesus”!!!

  21. 21 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    Matt. 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

  22. 22 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 7:53 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    “by one MAN, Jesus Christ”!!

  23. 23 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 7:59 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    Acts 13:38 ¶ Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

  24. 24 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    Heb. 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

  25. 25 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    Heb. 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

  26. 26 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Ralph said: “The Bible teaches there are multiple gods (divine beings).”

    Here are the passages you gave….

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________
    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”

    Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

    The term “God of gods” denotes that God is superior above all, including false gods.

    Psalm 40:4 “Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.”

    Psalm 135:5 ” I know that the LORD is great, that our Lord is greater than all gods.”

    When the devil tempted Jesus in Mathew 4:1-11, the devil quoted a portion of Psalm 91 (verse 6). The Devil was tempting Jesus to misinterpret God’s very own word written in the Bible!
    Jesus responded with another verse from the Bible(verse 7) The response showed that the devil’s intended interpretation was wrong.

  27. 27 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    “If Jesus were a man, things would have been made before he was born.”

    Well, all things were made before he was born, so by your logic Jesus was a man.

    Thank you for confirming that Jesus is a man.

  28. 28 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Ralph said: “Yes, Jesus was a man according to the Bible.

    1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    “the MAN Christ Jesus”!!!”

    When you asked me if Jesus was a man, isn’t the underlying position you have that Jesus was not always God but that he was just a man that later became a God?

    To this I respond: NO Jesus was not a man. That is to say he was never JUST a man.

    Jesus has always been God, Jesus created ALL THINGS and was BEFORE ALL THINGS.

  29. 29 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    But yes. God became flesh(Man) and made his dwelling among us.

    Jesus was both 100% God and at the same time 100% man. He was NEVER just a man.

  30. 30 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    What is your belief about Jesus?

  31. 31 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Your theology is a logical mass of confusion.

    You say that God is not a man, but you also say that Jesus is God (100%) and also a man (100%) thus making 200%.

    Totally illogical and inconsistent.

    You say that “If Jesus were a man, things would have been made before he was born.” Yet things WERE made before He was born, thus making Him a man.

    Then you say, “NO Jesus was not a man. That is to say he was never JUST a man.”

    Well, is He or isn’t He? According to you God is NOT a man, so He can’t be both God and man. Then you say “Jesus was both 100% God and at the same time 100% man.” Thus making 200% and yet you claim He is only one (100%).

    You also are logically inconsistent in your understanding of John 1:1. The phrase “in the beginning” CANNOT mean eternity. Eternity has no beginning. Therefore “in the beginning” specifically expresses a FINITE situation.

  32. 32 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    “The term “God of gods” denotes that God is superior above all, including false gods.”

    So, it is your position that God is a God of false gods? That false gods reverence and worship God? That these are not statements of praise, but are really statements of blasphemy.

    So statements like this are not praise but rather mocking?
    Psalm 135:5 ” I know that the LORD is great, that our Lord is greater than all gods.”

    If those other “gods” are not real “gods” then there is no praise in these statements at all, but rather mockery.

    This is how silly your statement is,

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of FALSE gods, and Lord of FALSE lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of FALSE gods, the Lord God of FALSE gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of FALSE gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of FALSE gods, and a Lord of FALSE kings, and a revealer of FALSE secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every FALSE god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of FALSE gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called FALSE gods, whether in heaven . . .

    FALSE gods in heaven? How silly.

  33. 33 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    Ralph, What is your belief about Jesus?

    Ralph said: “You say that God is not a man, but you also say that Jesus is God (100%) and also a man (100%) thus making 200%.”

    Not 200% but fully God, fully man. 100% divine nature(God) 100% human nature.(Man)
    Jesus was not 50% human 50% devine.

    Here is a book on the topic if you are interested:

    “The Two Natures in Christ” Volume 6 Chemnitz’s Works (Concordia Publishing)

    Ralph said: ” Totally illogical and inconsistent.”

    A god fashioned by the hands of men is a god that fits within our puny human logic. Our God is so much greater than we are. If you will only allow yourself to believe in a God that fits within the imperfect limitations of human reason, you will not meet the one true God.

    Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.”

    Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”

    Ralph said: “You say that “If Jesus were a man, things would have been made before he was born.” Yet things WERE made before He was born, thus making Him a man.”

    Okay, I need to clarify once again. What I mean is that if Jesus were JUST a man (But not God), then things would have to have been made before he was born(as just a man)

    Ralph said: “You also are logically inconsistent in your understanding of John 1:1. The phrase “in the beginning” CANNOT mean eternity. Eternity has no beginning. Therefore “in the beginning” specifically expresses a FINITE situation.”

    “In the beginning” is refering to BEFORE ***ALL*** THINGS WERE MADE.

    Ralph said: “Then you say, “NO Jesus was not a man. That is to say he was never JUST a man.” Well, is He or isn’t He? According to you God is NOT a man, so He can’t be both God and man. Then you say “Jesus was both 100% God and at the same time 100% man.” Thus making 200% and yet you claim He is only one (100%).”

    Jesus was God before he was born to Mary and Joseph. Jesus has always existed as God. Jesus has always been God. God became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14″And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.)

    The baby laying in the manger was God…

    Mathew 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” —which means, “God with us.””

    Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”

    Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

  34. 34 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 10:29 pm

    Ralph said: “So, it is your position that God is a God of false gods? That false gods reverence and worship God? That these are not statements of praise, but are really statements of blasphemy”

    Not a God of false gods. A God above all false gods. A God greater than false gods.

    Ralph said: “Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of FALSE gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.” etc…

    Not: God of false gods. But God above false Gods. A God greater than false Gods.

    We can’t ignore other scriptures…

    Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”

    Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

  35. 35 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 11:01 pm

    “Ralph, What is your belief about Jesus?”

    Echo, let’s get this straight. You don’t really care what I really believe about Christ just like you don’t care what I really believe about anything.

    “Not 200% but fully God, fully man. 100% divine nature(God) 100% human nature.(Man)”
    Really?

    If “human nature” is totally inconsistent with “divine nature” then you have a logical inconsistency.

    “Jesus was not 50% human 50% devine.” I agree, although I don’t know what “devine” means.

    Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.”

    I agree 100%

    Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”

    I agree 100%

    The Bible also says, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    “Okay, I need to clarify once again. What I mean is that if Jesus were JUST a man (But not God), then things would have to have been made before he was born(as just a man)”

    Again by your logic, Jesus is “just a man” because things WERE “made before he was born(as just a man)”.

    ‘“In the beginning” is refering to BEFORE ***ALL*** THINGS WERE MADE.’
    No, that would be before “the beginning. Notice that “IN” the beginning is within the beginning, not before it. According to Rev. 3:14 (And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;) Jesus IS the first (or beginning) of God’s creation.

    “Jesus was God before he was born to Mary and Joseph.”
    That isn’t what the Greek John 1:1 says exactly. It says that Jesus was WITH “the god” and was a god (or divine). Clearly describing TWO separate and distinct divine individuals.

    “Jesus has always existed as God.”
    The New Testament writers clearly separate Jesus from God. Here are several verses that do so.

    Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    • • •
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    1 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father AND in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Cor. 1: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

    Col. 1: 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

    1 Thes. 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, AND our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

    2 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom. 1: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom. 15: 6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    Gal. 1: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, AND from our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philip. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Thes. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, AND God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    1 Tim. 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father AND Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Philem. 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Jn. 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

    “The baby laying in the manger was God…”
    technically speaking it was the Lord, Jesus Christ, not God, the Father.

    ‘Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”’
    Well since there is no before or after God, this statement has no affect on my theology.

    ‘Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.’
    Yup, without Him there is no God.

    And this don’t negate the divine beings (gods) in the verses I posted earlier.

  36. 36 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 11:05 pm

    Since you brought up John 1:1 here is the Greek

    En archE en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ho theos kai theos en ho logos
    In beginning was the word and the word was toward the god and god was the word.

    Following is a short list of translations whose translators have understood the issues inherent in correctly translating John 1:1:

    The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text
    1808, LONDON
    Rendering: “…and the word was a god”

    The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History, According to the Four Evangelists
    1829, BALTIMORE (by John S. Thompson)
    Rendering: “…and the Logos was a god”

    The Emphatic Diaglott
    1864, NEW YORK, LONDON (by Benjamin Wilson)
    Rendering: “…and a god was the Word”

    The Bible – An American Translation
    1935, CHICAGO (by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed)
    Rendering: “…and the Word was divine”

    New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures
    1950, BROOKLYN (by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.)
    Rendering: “…and the Word was a god”

    Das Evangelium nach Johannes
    1975, GOTTINGEN (GERMANY) (by Sigfried Schulz)
    “…und ein Gott (oder, Gott von Art) war das Wort”
    Rendering: “…and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word”

    Das Evangelium nach Johannes
    1978, BERLIN (GERMANY)(by Johannes Schneider)
    “…und goettlichen Wesens war das Wort”
    Rendering: “…and god-like sort was the Word”

    Das Evangelium nach Johannes
    1979, WURZBURG (GERMANY) (by Johannes Schneider)
    “…und ein Gott war das Wort”
    Rendering: “…and a god was the Word”

  37. 37 Ralph Peterson
    May 16, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    John 1 doesn’t teach Jesus is “the eternal God”. It teaches his nature is the same as God’s. As the “Translator’s Handbook to the Gospel of John”, by Newman and Nida and published by United Bible Societies (obviously not LDS, but in fact Trinitarian in their philosophical position) on pages 8-9 notes:

    …”God” is here the equivalent of an adjective, and this fact justifies the rendering he (the Word) was the same as God. John is not saying that “the Word” was God the Father, but he is affirming that the same divine predication can be made of “the Word” as can be made of God the Father, and so “the Word” can be spoken of as God in the same sense.

    To make sure there is no misunderstanding of what the passage means, the authors immediately add:

    Many languages have two quite different types of equational sentences. One type indicates complete identity in such a sentence as “My husband is John Smith” or “John Smith is my husband,” that is, the two parts of the sentence are completely equivalent. In the second type, however, one may say “John Smith is a teacher” but cannot say “A teacher is John Smith.” “A teacher” merely qualifies “John Smith” and indicates the class of persons to which he belongs. The latter is precisely the type of equational sentence which occurs in this verse. “God” completely characterizes “the Word,” and all that is true of God is true of the Word. This does not mean, however, that the two elements can be inverted, and that one can translate “God was the Word” any more than one can make “Love is God” an inversion of the Biblical statement “God is love.” It is difficult for some people to recognize that this equational sentence in Greek belongs to the second class because in the predicate the term “God” refers to a unique object. Since this type of equational sentence may be misleading with “God” in the predicate, it is better to translate it “The Word was the same as God” or “Just what God was is what the Word also was.”

    The false statement that there is only one God in John 1 in view is absolutely refuted by the grammar used by John. While the Jehovah’s Witness translation that “and the Word was a god” is too stark for the ears of Trinitarians, it is in fact a very valid translation which, but for the theological bias of the Trinitarian community, would be in some form widely disseminated.

    Daniel Wallace, who is also a Trinitarian, affirms the content of Newman and Nida’s assertions, though he tries to avoid the obvious problem of the existence of two divine beings by stating,

    “…that the “Word shared all the attributes and qualities that “the God” (of 1:1b) had. In other words, he shared the essence of the Father, though they differed in person.” (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, page 269

    I find it funny that he must theoligcalize the grammar of John 1:1 by editorializing that the “Father” and “essence” are to be understood in the context of this verse, when the Words aren’t found in the verse or even the context of the verse. Says Wallace:

    “The construction the evangelist chose to express this idea was the most concise way he could have stated that the Word was God and yet was distinct from the Father.” GGBTB, p 269.

    Similar arguments are easily accrued for the Revelation 1 analysis. Jesus is clearly distinct in Revelation from God. He is a second God. This position was explicitly affirmed by Justin Martyr and Origen, both of whom were considered ‘orthodox’ in their day. It wasn’t until later that their writings came into question because of their direct statements about Christians worshiping two Gods.

  38. 38 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 11:25 pm

    Ralph said: “Ralph, What is your belief about Jesus?” Echo, let’s get this straight. You don’t really care what I really believe about Christ just like you don’t care what I really believe about anything.”

    Ralph, I really care about you, I really care about what you believe.

  39. 39 Echo
    May 16, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Ralph said: ““Jesus was not 50% human 50% devine.” I agree, although I don’t know what “devine” means”

    Oops, typo. :-) Should be “divine” not “devine”

  40. 40 Echo
    May 17, 2011 at 1:36 am

    Ralph said: “Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.” I agree 100% Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”
    I agree 100%”

    Okay, perfect. So if you agree with those verses 100%, can you see how: “not everything that pertains to God” will fit within the maximum limitations of our puny human reasoning?

    Ralph said: “The Bible also says, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    Correct. I am in 100% agreement with that verse.

    We believe there is ONE God, the verse states that fact: (“Only” true God [*only* is singular and *God* is singular] )
    That said, the Bible teaches that the Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

    Ralph said: “Again by your logic, Jesus is “just a man” because things WERE “made before he was born(as just a man)”.

    Jesus was God before he became a man. Jesus was God without a body prior to his birth to Mary and Joseph. When God said: “Let **us** make man in **our** image. Jesus was there and included in the “Us” and “our”. I don’t believe Jesus was ever just a man. I thought that is what you believe but I am uncertain what you believe. But Jesus created earth and everything in the earth and then became a man and dwelt among us.

    Ralph said: “‘“In the beginning” is refering to BEFORE ***ALL*** THINGS WERE MADE.’
    No, that would be before “the beginning. Notice that “IN” the beginning is within the beginning, not before it.”

    Okay, I am not afraid to admit when I see that I am clearly wrong. I think you have made an excellent point here and have won me over on this one. I take back: “before the beginning”, your suggestion of “In the beginning” is absolutely more scriptural than mine.” :-)

    Ralph said: “According to Rev. 3:14 (And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;)”

    The word “beginning” here is used to denote: “origin” or “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause”

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G746&t=KJV

    In other words: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of the creation of God.”

    In other words…the creator of the creation of God.

    Ralph said: ” The New Testament writers clearly separate Jesus from God. Here are several verses that do so.” (then you listed all the verses…)

    I fully agree with you and your verses. One God in three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Ralph said: ““The baby laying in the manger was God…” technically speaking it was the Lord, Jesus Christ, not God, the Father.”

    Agreed. But the baby laying in the manger was God. “God with us”

    Ralph said: “‘Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.’
    Yup, without Him there is no God. And this don’t negate the divine beings (gods) in the verses I posted earlier.”

    Psalm 86:10 ” For you are great and do marvelous deeds; YOU ALONE are God.”

    Isaiah 44:8 ” Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

    Isaiah 45:5 ” I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.”

    Isaiah 45:18 ” For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God;
    he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty,
    but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 45:21 ” Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together.
    Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD?
    And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.”

    Isaiah 45:23 ” “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 46:9 ” Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me.”

    Malachi 2:10 ” Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?”

    1 Cor 8:4 ” So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.”

    1 Tim 2:5 ” For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

    James 2:19 ” You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

  41. 41 Martha
    May 17, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Wow, Jesus must really be crying over this discussion. How sad is the debate.

    Simply Jesus is God and always was God. He came to this earth as God in Human form to suffer and die for us on the cross so that we may live with Him for all eternity. His love for us is that strong. All He wants in return is your love. This is not love. If you don’t love God all this debate is rubish. Let’s hear about your love of God.

  42. 42 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    “We believe there is ONE God, the verse states that fact: (“Only” true God [*only* is singular and *God* is singular] )”

    No, “only” isn’t singular. For example, “I ‘only’ have five dollars.”

    And neither is “God” only singular. It can be either singular or plural like the words quail, deer, sheep, or elk.

    Gen. 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Gen. 3:22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    Jesus used the phrase “only true God” to refer to His Father.

  43. 43 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    “That said, the Bible teaches that the Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.”

    First off, although I believe the Holy Spirit is divine, you have to take a tortuous path to get the Bible to teach it.

    Second, “the Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God” makes THREE Gods. Period. That makes God plural.

  44. 44 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    “Jesus was God before he became a man. Jesus was God without a body prior to his birth to Mary and Joseph. When God said: “Let **us** make man in **our** image. Jesus was there and included in the “Us” and “our”. I don’t believe Jesus was ever just a man. I thought that is what you believe but I am uncertain what you believe. But Jesus created earth and everything in the earth and then became a man and dwelt among us.”

    Here, let me clean that up for you.

    Jesus was DIVINE before he OBTAINED A PHYSICAL BODY. Jesus was DIVINE without a body prior to his birth to Mary. When God said: “Let **us** make man in **our** image. Jesus was there and included in the “Us” and “our” (MAKING “GOD” A PLURAL). Jesus ORGANIZED THE earth and everything in the earth and then came and dwelt among us IN THE FLESH.

  45. 45 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    “Okay, I am not afraid to admit when I see that I am clearly wrong. I think you have made an excellent point here and have won me over on this one. I take back: “before the beginning”, your suggestion of “In the beginning” is absolutely more scriptural than mine.” :-)”

    This is scary. You are exhibiting reasonableness that I haven’t seen from you before. This is indeed a pleasant surprise.

  46. 46 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    “The word “beginning” here is used to denote: “origin” or “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause”

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G746&t=KJV

    In other words: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of the creation of God.”

    In other words…the creator of the creation of God. ”

    Nah, that is just you reading into it something that you want to see. From the link you provided.

    “1) beginning, origin

    2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

    3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

    4) the extremity of a thing

    a) of the corners of a sail

    5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

    a) of angels and demons”

    All of these support the meaning I gave you. Thanks.

  47. 47 Ralph Peterson
    May 17, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    “I fully agree with you and your verses. One God in three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

    And THREE persons logically equal THREE separate and distinct beings. The unity, or oneness of God is in purpose and all Godly attributes, but not of being.

    Jesus made it clear that He wasn’t the Father and that He was a separate person/being from the Father. But that He did EXACTLY the Father wanted, thus behaving EXACTLY the way the Father would have. Jesus was authorized to speak for, in behalf of, and AS the Father.

  48. 48 Echo
    May 17, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Ralph said: “Second, “the Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God” makes THREE Gods. Period. That makes God plural.”

    Your *body* is Ralph, your *soul* is Ralph. One Ralph, not two Ralph’s. Singular.

  49. 49 Kent
    May 17, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Leave it people to complicate things as, yes, it is that simple, just accept Jesus’ free gift to us all that He gave us by dying in our place and you can be saved(eternal life) and have everlasting life (eternal life) with Heavenly Father.

    John 6:28-29
    28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.’

    John 6:47
    47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.’

    John 3:16
    16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’

    Romans 10:9, 13
    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.’

    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

    So just, as I said at the beginning of this post, accept Jesus’ free gift, little children understand it so have faith like they do and you can enter the kingdom of heaven where God the Father is and you can know now not some time in the distant future, if at all. So don’t worry if you are worthy enough as Jesus’ blood is enough if you just believe and trust in Him and what He did by shedding His blood on the cross for all of us!

    Matthew 18:3
    3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Ralph, I pray that your eyes are opened but if not, then there are others who may be questioning what they have been taught all of their lives so, as I have said before, I am not trying to win some debate but I am just trying to present the gospel to those who will listen and to them I say, just read the Bible for a time, by itself, and have faith that it is the one and only true word of God and your eyes will be opened!

  50. 50 Kent
    May 17, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    I took the liberty to do some paraphrasing of some Bible verses to show our Mormon friends what the Bible says regarding salvation where I have replaced words and phrases such as ‘saved’, ‘everlasting life’, ‘in the resurrection’, and in ‘the kingdom of God’ (singular)with the term ‘CELESTIAL KINGDOM’

    So the choice is being either saved (in the CELESTIAL KINGDOM) or condemnation, outer darkness (Hell).

    John 6:47

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me SHALL BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but SHALL BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM.
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already AND CANNOT BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Romans 10:9, 13
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM.’
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM.’

    Matthew 18:3
    And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM.’

    Acts 16:30-34
    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM?
    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt BE IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, and thy house.
    And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    Matthew 22:30
    For in the CELESTIAL KINGDOM they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    The difference is that the Bible teaches we do not become gods in the resurrection-THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, we will not be married there, and we will be like the angels of heaven who are created beings who worship God but we won’t be gods ourselves.

  51. 51 Echo
    May 17, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    You have: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

    Why not: 1 X 1 X 1 = 1

  52. 52 Echo
    May 17, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    Ralph said: “And neither is “God” only singular. It can be either singular or plural like the words quail, deer, sheep, or elk.”

    True enough. Some terms can be used as singular or plural such as the ones you gave. It is also true then that we wouldn’t say: “I saw some sheep’s” nor “I saw some deer’s”, because that would be grammatically incorrect.

    The problem is….Scripture uses the “s” to indentify plural god’s…

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    And the scripture uses “I” and “Me” and “you” and “you alone” and “one God” and “God” without the “s” etc. to describe a singular God…

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Psalm 86:10 ” For you are great and do marvelous deeds; YOU ALONE are God.”

    Isaiah 44:8 ” Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

    Isaiah 45:5 ” I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.”

    Isaiah 45:18 ” For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God;
    he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty,
    but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 45:21 ” Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together.
    Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD?
    And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.”

    Isaiah 45:23 ” “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 46:9 ” Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me.”

    Malachi 2:10 ” Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?”

    1 Cor 8:4 ” So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.”

    1 Tim 2:5 ” For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

    James 2:19 ” You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    You won’t find a single scripture that sates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “God’s”

  53. 53 Echo
    May 17, 2011 at 10:13 pm

    Revelation 3:14 in the KJV : “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”

    Revelation 3:14 in the NIV: “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.”

  54. 54 Kent
    May 18, 2011 at 12:53 am

    So yes, when we save saved, etc. we mean being with Heavenly Father and, as I said, just read the Bible alone and nothing else and don’t look for a warm fuzzy feeling but just read it with an open mind and in faith that it is the true and everlasting word of God.

    So hear and believe the words of the master Himself Jesus Christ

    Matthew 24:35

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

    So today is the day of salvation so hear the words and have faith.

    Romans 10:14-17

    “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

  55. 55 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    “The difference is that the Bible teaches we do not become gods in the resurrection-THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, we will not be married there, and we will be like the angels of heaven who are created beings who worship God but we won’t be gods ourselves.”

    Echo,

    Let me fix this for you.

    “The difference is that the EVANGELICALS teach we do not become gods in the resurrection-THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, we will not be married there, and we will be like the angels of heaven who are created beings who worship God but we won’t be gods ourselves.”

    Now, THAT is a statement we can both believe in.

  56. 56 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    “True enough. Some terms can be used as singular or plural such as the ones you gave.”

    It is nice that you acknowledged my point.

    “It is also true then that we wouldn’t say: “I saw some sheep’s” nor “I saw some deer’s”, because that would be grammatically incorrect.”

    True, using the possessive in those sentences is inappropriate.

    It is acceptable to say “I saw some quails” or “I saw some elks”. It might sound strange but it is technically acceptable.

  57. 57 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    ‘You won’t find a single scripture that sates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “God’s”’

    And since God can be plural, this is not a problem.

    Do you realize that the Hebrew word “אֱלהִים” (elohim) is used both as both singular (God) and plural (gods) depending upon the context and the translators?

  58. 58 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    “Your *body* is Ralph, your *soul* is Ralph. One Ralph, not two Ralph’s. Singular.”

    Well, since “body” and “soul” denote different categories it is like saying my “head” is Ralph and my “foot” is Ralph but there is only one Ralph, not two.

    This doesn’t apply to the Father and the Son, unless you are saying they are not different persons but different categories.

  59. 59 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen–the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

    King James Bible
    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    American King James Version
    And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    American Standard Version
    And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

    So, what is your point?

    And then there is this to consider,
    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    So Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of EVERY CREATURE. Imagine that.

  60. 60 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    “Why not: 1 X 1 X 1 = 1”

    ????????????

    The Father X the Son = ??????????

    What might work with numbers doesn’t work with persons.

  61. 61 Echo
    May 19, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    I think these EX Mormons say it all…

  62. 62 Echo
    May 19, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    The EX Mormons song to the LDS prophets and Apostles…

  63. 63 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    Interesting that they want to be known for what they no longer are, rather than what they currently claim to be.

  64. 64 Kent
    May 19, 2011 at 9:21 pm

    Ralph, as I said, leave it to people to complicate things. You can say that John 1 means something different in the original Greek but I have no way of knowing what you are quoting is not taken out of context and I am not a bible scholar or an expert in ancient Greek and I don’t know that you are either.
    Anyway, we can use the English here to show that the Bible says Jesus is God Almighty, and that He Himself said He is God. The passages below clearly state this as shown in John 1, Exodus 3, and John 8 which God referred to Himself as I Am, and in John 8 which Jesus also referred to Himself as I Am.
    Yes, Jesus also became a man on Earth for a time, the perfect man who was without sin who was the Lamb without blemish foretold by the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament that were innocent and without blemish. The thing is, Jesus was always perfect and without sin, even when He walked on this Earth, and He couldn’t have been so by being anything less than God Almighty, Emanuel, ‘God with us’, and if He wasn’t the perfect sacrifice, then His death on the cross means nothing.
    So Jesus was not a man first who progressed to become god but instead humbled Himself to become a man to take the punishment in our place to save us so that we can be with Heavenly Father when we leave this world.
    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Exodus 3:13-14
    And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

  65. 65 Ralph Peterson
    May 19, 2011 at 9:39 pm

    Sense Jesus is the mediator between God (the Father) and man, I don’t have a problem with the pre-mortal Jesus being the one to speak to Moses.

    Jesus was authorized, from the creation of the earth, to speak for, in behalf of, and AS God, the Father.

    As far as not knowing Greek, may I suggest this non-LDS site to help you out.
    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    The Greek and Hebrew of the verses that you cite are very interesting.

  66. 66 Echo
    May 19, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    They don’t want to be known, they want you to know Jesus. That’s love!

  67. 67 Kent
    May 19, 2011 at 11:33 pm

    Ralph said,

    “Sense Jesus is the mediator between God (the Father) and man, I don’t have a problem with the pre-mortal Jesus being the one to speak to Moses.”

    That was actually God the Father talking to Moses, not God the Son (Jesus). So Jesus was saying He was God the Son, the second person in the Godhead, when He was telling the Jewish leaders that before Abraham was I Am.

  68. 68 Kent
    May 19, 2011 at 11:49 pm

    Ralph, one more thing, you never answered me, or maybe I missed it, about why the Book of Mormon says that God has always been God, which, on at least this point, I agree with what it says. So if, as the Mormons claim, BOM is the most correct book there is, then why do they now teach something contrary to its teachings, that God was a man first, that He hasn’t always been God and that there are other gods besides Him, namely exalted Mormons?

    “And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea there is a true and living God. Now, Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.” Alma 11:26-30

    “…I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” 3 Nephi 9:18

    For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” Moroni 8:18

    “For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting,..” Moroni 7:22
    “Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them. For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?” Mormon 9:8,9

  69. 69 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Nah, it was actually the pre-Mortal Jesus speaking to Moses. So Jesus was saying He was the one speaking to Moses and Abraham when He told the Jews that “before Abraham was, I am”.

    Why do you think they wanted to kill him for that statement?

  70. 70 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    When you understand that “God” is plural or a collection of divine beings similar to the description found in John 17 there is no problem or conflict. And if this collection has always existed, what is the problem?

    Take the Father and the Son for example.

    If two (or more) people/persons/individuals/beings were,
    1) pure from sin.
    2) united perfectly in purpose and will.
    3) were perfectly kind, loving, merciful, humble, meek, and all other godly attributes.
    4) had all power.
    5) had all knowledge.
    6) and in the case of the Father and the Son, they look alike.

    What could we say about them?

    1) They are united, “My Father and I are one”.
    2) Seeing one would be no different than seeing the other, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”.
    3) Knowing one would be no different than knowing the other, “if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also”.
    4) Speaking to one would be no different than speaking to the other. “when you have seen me you have seen the Father, “I speak that which I have seen with my Father”.
    5) What one would do would be no different than what the other would do, “the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”, “as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do”.

    And yet, they are separate and distinct individuals.

    As far as your questions about Greek, I found this link to be useful in understanding John 1:1.
    http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm


Comments are currently closed.

May 2011
M T W T F S S
« Apr   Jun »
 1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031  

Blog Stats

  • 182,188 hits

Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

Join 998 other followers


%d bloggers like this: