19
May
11

Revelation above Reason or Reason above Revelation?

This is a question many haven’t considered, but one that everyone, consciously or unconsciously, has answered.  What takes precedence – what rules supreme:  man’s reason or God’s revelation?  Or to put it another way, what is the ultimate test for truth?  That something agrees with man’s reason (this is logical, this makes sense to me) or that is has been revealed by God (the Bible says)?

Underlying this question is the presupposition that God’s revelation far surpasses man’s reason and his ability to understand it.  That is a presupposition that the Bible itself makes.  “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”  (Isaiah 55:8-9)  “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.”  (Romans 11:33)

Therefore we should expect to encounter things – many things – in God’s revelation that boggle our minds.  Things that are far beyond us.  Things that we can’t understand.  Things that we can’t reconcile logically.

This is where the above question comes in.  When we encounter such things are we going to trust God’s revelation over against our reason or are we going to trust on our reason instead of God’s revelation?  This comes into play when witnessing to Mormons because most Mormons’ default position is trusting in their reason above God’s revelation.  All you have to do is look at some of the comments left on the previous few posts to see ample examples of that.

No, it’s not logical that God gives eternal life freely and fully to dead and stinking sinners but that is what he has revealed.  Therefore I believe it.  No, it’s not logical that Jesus is both true man and true God in one person, but that is what God has revealed.  Therefore I believe it.  No, it’s not logical that there is one God comprised of three distinct persons, but that is what God has revealed.  Therefore I believe it.  God’s revelation trumps my reason every time.

But not only do I believe this, I rejoice in this.  Because this shows me how majestic and great my God is.  I personally don’t want a God that I can understand.  No, I want somebody who is so far above me – that is so vastly different from me – that all I can do is stand in awe.  That’s the God of the Bible.   To him be all praise!

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92 Responses to “Revelation above Reason or Reason above Revelation?”


  1. 1 Echo
    May 19, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    A God that only fit’s within the parameters of Human Reason is a god with only the powers of a man and not a God.

  2. 2 Kent
    May 19, 2011 at 11:59 pm

    But if Mormons always use reason and logic, then why do Mormon missionaries tell me to read the Book of Mormon, ask God if it is true, and then see if I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside?

    That sounds hardly logical to me.

  3. 3 Echo
    May 20, 2011 at 1:27 am

    Kent,

    It’s logical to Mormons because of faulty human reasoning.

    It’s not logical to you Kent because God has shown you HIS logic which is much greater than human reasoning could ever come close to.

  4. 4 Echo
    May 20, 2011 at 1:30 am

    In 1 Corinthians 1 is the message that the world in all of it’s wisdom did not know God.

  5. 5 Echo
    May 20, 2011 at 1:38 am

    “Whether in the robes of acedemia or in the garb of common sense, reason, “the devil’s bride”, is dressed to go into battle against the gospel of Christ. And since the time of Cain, the most appealing theologians, apologists, philosophers and scientists (in short, the world’s best and wisest men) have tallied to her side, supported her cause and worshipped at her alter” (Siegbert W. Becker; The Foolishness of God; Northwestern Publishing House)

    “Yet that faculty of the human mind called reason is a great, yes, God’s “greatest and most important,” gift to man and “a most useful servant in theology.” Reason as such has by no means been abolished from the Christian Church. But before it can enter there, it must be converted from a judge into a penitent, from a master into a servant, from a professor into a pupil–or, more precisely, from a pagan into a Christian” (Siegbert W. Becker; The Foolishness of God; Northwestern Publishing House)

  6. 6 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Actually, that is a very useless statement. Men are able to imagine things far more outlandish that what God really is.

    Take the doctrine of the trinity for example. It is admitted by knowledgeable scholars that it isn’t Biblical, but rather a later invention. (This is only a problem for the “sola scripturist”). It was the result of the Hellenized neoplatonic philosophies of men mingled with Christian theology. In other words it is a creation through the reason of men, and not through revelation from God.

    So what I find this OP to be is merely projection.

    Take the man made concept of the omnipresence of God (or God is everywhere). If God is everywhere then, 1) how can evil exist?, 2) how can there be a hell (absence of God)?

    Where does the concept of “immaterial” come from? It certainly isn’t found in the Bible. It is a man made concept.

    Take the man made concept of creation ex nihilo. Instead of making God omnipotent it makes Him impotent. The God of Creedal Christians is incapable of reproduction.

    So yes, you have to throw logic and reason out the window to accept the philosophies of men, even the ones that happen to be mingled with a few scriptures.

  7. 7 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    It is logical because it is philosophy of God. Even Paul taught this concept.

    2 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    I always find it ironic that those who disparage the revelatory power of the Holy Spirit as merely “a warm fuzzy feeling inside”? One who has experience this revelatory power and accepted it would exhibit a more reverent attitude toward it.

    Even Paul professes that this was his source of information.

    Gal 1: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
    11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the REVELATION of Jesus Christ.

  8. 8 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Kent,

    It’s logical to Evangelicals because of faulty human reasoning.

    It’s not logical to me because God has shown me HIS logic which is much greater than human reasoning could ever come close to.

    Ralph

  9. 9 Echo
    May 20, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    Ralph said: “Take the doctrine of the trinity for example. It is admitted by knowledgeable scholars that it isn’t Biblical, but rather a later invention. (This is only a problem for the “sola scripturist”). It was the result of the Hellenized neoplatonic philosophies of men mingled with Christian theology. In other words it is a creation through the reason of men, and not through revelation from God.”
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________

    Forget the scholars and the reasoning of those men and look at the scriptural revelation alone.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________

    Ralph said: “Take the man made concept of the omnipresence of God (or God is everywhere). If God is everywhere then, 1) how can evil exist?, 2) how can there be a hell (absence of God)?

    Where does the concept of “immaterial” come from? It certainly isn’t found in the Bible. It is a man made concept.

    Take the man made concept of creation ex nihilo. Instead of making God omnipotent it makes Him impotent. The God of Creedal Christians is incapable of reproduction.

    So yes, you have to throw logic and reason out the window to accept the philosophies of men, even the ones that happen to be mingled with a few scriptures.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Again, you are using your faulty human reasoning instead of revelation from the scripture.

  10. 10 Ralph Peterson
    May 20, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    Wrong. I am using the revelation of the Holy Spirit and not your faulty doctrines of men.

  11. 11 Echo
    May 20, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    Ralph said: “Wrong. I am using the revelation of the Holy Spirit and not your faulty doctrines of men.”

    How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?

  12. 12 Echo
    May 21, 2011 at 3:33 am

    Ralph, I won’t be posting for the weekend. Going out of town. Talk to you again next week.

    Have a good weekend :-)

  13. 13 Kent
    May 21, 2011 at 3:56 am

    Ralph said,”Take the man made concept of creation ex nihilo. Instead of making God omnipotent it makes Him impotent. The God of Creedal Christians is incapable of reproduction.”

    Why would the concept of creation ex nihilio, meaning God created everything in the universe from nothing, make Him impotent? Reproduction is mortal human biological behavior and rather than making God as having no power, not being bound by mere simple human biology makes Him powerful and omnipotent, not impotent and creating everything from nothing makes Him a God who is all powerful who is worthy of our worship so far above humanity that He is the Almighty.

    Who would want to worship a God who is anything less than this? I for one don’t.

    Something in the Bible doesn’t agree with what your church teaches? Just add something to the Bible, as the Mormons did with the Book of Moses which has the creation story of Genesis but with the idea that everything that was created physically as having existed spritually before the physical creation. Another example of adding something to fit what the Mormon church teaches is Joseph Smith adding a prophesy at the end of Genesis in the JST that predicted his own coming as a latter day prophet.

    The Bible teaches that nothing existed, except God who always has been and who always has been God, before God started the creation of Genesis 1:1 and that is good enough for me.

  14. 14 Kent
    May 21, 2011 at 4:05 am

    Ralph said,”Take the man made concept of creation ex nihilo. Instead of making God omnipotent it makes Him impotent. The God of Creedal Christians is incapable of reproduction.”

    Is it just me, or is Ralph implying that God should be bound by the physical process of biological reproduction the most absurd thing that has ever been posted on this blog?

    Why would God Almighty need to reproduce? As He is the only God and there doesn’t need to be any other.

  15. 15 Kent
    May 21, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    As I have said before, nothing existed, except God, before God created everything in the beginning in Genesis 1:1. So since nothing existed yet, then it follows that there were no planets yet for God to have been a man first for Him to be on. Also, since God didn’t create man from the dust of the ground until the sixth day of creation, then man didn’t exist until God created Him out of the dust of the ground. So since man was nothing, he was dust before God made Him a living being by breathing life into him, man before God created him could not have created anything as dust is just dust.

  16. 16 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    “How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?”

    That is a good question. Describing the “revelation of the Holy Spirit” to someone who hasn’t experienced it is rather difficult. Even attempts by Biblical authors to describe it are ridiculed and mocked by many who reject such revelations. They take such descriptions as “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”, and say, oh, did you get “heart burn” or a “warm fuzzy feeling”.

  17. 17 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Thanks for admitting that the God of the Nicenean Creed is impotent. He is incapable of reproduction.

    “The Bible teaches that nothing existed, except God who always has been and who always has been God, before God started the creation of Genesis 1:1 and that is good enough for me.”

    Actually you are in error here. The Bible doesn’t teach that at all. If you read Genesis more carefully you will see that, (if you take your Evangelical blinders off).

    Notice in Gen 1:2 “the waters” were already in existence as was “the waters” in verse 6 & 7.

  18. 18 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Missing the point here.

    It isn’t a matter of your God needing to reproduce, it is a matter of he CAN’T reproduce. He is incapable of doing so. He is impotent. Therefore, he isn’t “omnipotent”, because he is “impotent”.

  19. 19 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Actually you are in error here. The Bible doesn’t teach that at all. If you read Genesis more carefully you will see that, (if you take your Evangelical blinders off).

    Notice in Gen 1:2 “the waters” were already in existence as was “the waters” in verse 6 & 7.

    “Also, since God didn’t create man from the dust of the ground until the sixth day of creation, then man didn’t exist until God created Him out of the dust of the ground.”

    This, of course, is the “physical” creation of man, and not the “spiritual”. The “spiritual” creation occurred prior to the physical.

    Notice that man was created BEFORE God formed the physical body from the dust. See Gen 1:26 thru 2:1.

    If you read the first part of Genesis carefully you will notice that it describes two creations. The first was the spiritual creation and the second was the physical creation.

  20. 20 Echo
    May 23, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    Echo said: ““How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?”

    Ralph replied: “That is a good question. Describing the “revelation of the Holy Spirit” to someone who hasn’t experienced it is rather difficult. Even attempts by Biblical authors to describe it are ridiculed and mocked by many who reject such revelations. They take such descriptions as “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”, and say, oh, did you get “heart burn” or a “warm fuzzy feeling”.”

    SO sorry to hear that Christians have ridiculed your beliefs by saying things like “heart burn” and “warm fuzzy feelings”. I do believe that Christians should show respect for the LDS and their teachings even when we disagree with those teachings.

    In that verse you quoted from Luke 24:32 “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”

    What does that verse say was the cause of their hearts burning within them?

  21. 21 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    It doesn’t say what “caused” it, only that it occurred while Jesus was talking to them and explaining the (Old Testament) scriptures.

  22. 22 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    It should be added that the disciples that experienced it recognized the significance of it. That is was something that should have been an indicator to them.

  23. 23 Echo
    May 23, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    Ralph said: “It doesn’t say what “caused” it, only that it occurred while Jesus was talking to them and explaining the (Old Testament) scriptures. It should be added that the disciples that experienced it recognized the significance of it. That is was something that should have been an indicator to them.”

    I agree with everything you said Ralph. Revelation came from “scripture” (Old Testament) through a face to face talk with JESUS while he was here on earth physically, this revelation did not come through the HOLY SPIRIT.
    EVERYTHING that was hidden in the Old Testament was now Revealed to the apostles. The apostles wrote the New Testament giving us all the details of that Revelation. Today we have no more need of revelation. All the revelation we need is now contained in the scriptures ALONE.

    Romans 16:24-25 “…in keeping with the revelation OF THE MYSTERY HIDDEN for long ages past, BUT NOW REVEALED and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God,..”

    Ephesians 3:8-10 “Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and TO MAKE PLAIN TO EVERYONE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS MYSTERY, WHICH FOR AGES PAST WAS KEPT HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all things. His intent was that NOW, THROUGH THE CHURCH, THE ****MANIFOLD**** WISDOM of God SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,…”

    Colossians 1:26 “the MYSTERY THAT HAS BEEN KEPT HIDDEN for ages and generations, BUT IS NOW DISCLOSED TO THE LORD’S PEOPLE.”

    So my question remains: How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?

    It is clear to me that the verse “God justifieth the ungodly” is a revelation of God because it is written in scripture. Jesus himself revealed that fact to the apostles. Therefore when a Jospeh Smith states: “God justifieth NOT the ungodly”, that is not a revelation of God because it contradicts God. Only Satan contradicts God.

  24. 24 Ralph Peterson
    May 23, 2011 at 10:14 pm

    “Revelation came from “scripture” (Old Testament) through a face to face talk with JESUS while he was here on earth physically, this revelation did not come through the HOLY SPIRIT.”

    THAT is NOT what I said, so don’t misrepresent what I said.

    It is rather OBVIOUS that the Old Testament DID NOT provide the revelation. It is obvious that any scriptures quoted by Jesus would have been quoted from memory. It is also rather obvious that the presence of Jesus was instrumental in the “heart burn within us”.

    For you to attempt to twist this into something it clearly isn’t, is rather shameful on your part.

    “EVERYTHING that was hidden in the Old Testament was now Revealed to the apostles.”

    Yes, but through the Holy Spirit. As Jesus had taught them,
    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    And Paul taught,
    1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY GHOST GHOST TEACHETH; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Notice that it is the Holy Spirit that teaches, the Holy Spirit that reveals “all truth”. The scriptures are not what reveals truth but only act as a catalyst for the Holy Spirit to reveal truth.

    “Today we have no more need of revelation.”

    That is a lie direct from the lips of the devil.

    “All the revelation we need is now contained in the scriptures ALONE.”

    That is demonstrably untrue. If the Bible was sufficient, then there wouldn’t be such confusion in the Christian world.

    ‘Romans 16:24-25 “…in keeping with the revelation OF THE MYSTERY HIDDEN for long ages past, BUT NOW REVEALED and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God,..”

    ‘Ephesians 3:8-10 “Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and TO MAKE PLAIN TO EVERYONE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS MYSTERY, WHICH FOR AGES PAST WAS KEPT HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all things. His intent was that NOW, THROUGH THE CHURCH, THE ****MANIFOLD**** WISDOM of God SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,…”

    ‘Colossians 1:26 “the MYSTERY THAT HAS BEEN KEPT HIDDEN for ages and generations, BUT IS NOW DISCLOSED TO THE LORD’S PEOPLE.”’

    You are simply attempting to make the writings of the apostles and prophets more important than the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And therefore more important than God, Himself.

    The Bible is an inanimate object. It can’t give revelations. Only the Holy Spirit can give revelations of truth.

    But if you are so determined to worship the Bible (the product of men), you are free to do so.

    “So my question remains: How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?”

    So my question is, how can you be certain that your interpretation of scripture is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God?

    Simply saying that the Bible says what you want it to say isn’t going to do it.

    “It is clear to me that the verse “God justifieth the ungodly” is a revelation of God because it is written in scripture. Jesus himself revealed that fact to the apostles. Therefore when a Jospeh Smith states: “God justifieth NOT the ungodly”, that is not a revelation of God because it contradicts God. Only Satan contradicts God.”

    We have already discussed this topic and you lost. Joseph was correct, and it has been shown so using the Bible. And I can see that Bible worship is blinding you to the truth.

  25. 25 Kent
    May 24, 2011 at 12:18 am

    Ralph said, “This, of course, is the “physical” creation of man, and not the “spiritual”. The “spiritual” creation occurred prior to the physical.

    Notice that man was created BEFORE God formed the physical body from the dust. See Gen 1:26 thru 2:1”

    1. There is nothing in the Genesis creation story that says the spiritual creation occured prior to the physical. Where did you get this? It is in the Book of Moses, from the Mormons, but that is something that was added to the creation story and it isn’t in Genesis.

    2. The account prior to the description of man being created by God from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2 isn’t chronological so Man wasn’t created prior to the sixth day of creation but even so it is clear man wasn’t created before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 so God couldn’t have been a man first as man still didn’t exist yet before God created him.

    How can the clay create the potter?

  26. 26 Kent
    May 24, 2011 at 12:19 am

    Echo, that is what Mormon missionaries have told me to read the Book of Mormon and ask God it if is true and if I get a “warm fuzzy feeling” that it would be an indication that it is true.

  27. 27 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 1:41 am

    Echo said: ““Revelation came from “scripture” (Old Testament) through a face to face talk with JESUS while he was here on earth physically, this revelation did not come through the HOLY SPIRIT.”

    Ralph replied: “THAT is NOT what I said, so don’t misrepresent what I said.”

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    You misunderstand. I wasn’t misrepresenting what you said. Those are **MY** words in response to you not a representation or misrepresentation of what you said. These words I wrote reflect MY beliefs not yours. While I agreed with what you wrote, I was commenting further ahead on it.

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________
    “Echo said: “EVERYTHING that was hidden in the Old Testament was now Revealed to the apostles.”

    Ralph replied: “Yes, but through the Holy Spirit. As Jesus had taught them,
    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    You misunderstand me. Let me explain further…

    The LDS uses the verse: “Luke 24:32 “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” to support their teaching that the Holy Spirit gives them personal revelation and that it produces a burning in the bosom.

    The problem is that the presence of JESUS was instrumental in this account. Not the HOLY SPIRIT…

    John 16:7-15 explains that the SPIRIT could only be sent AFTER Jesus went away…

    “But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    “Echo said: ““Today we have no more need of revelation.”

    Ralph replied: “That is a lie direct from the lips of the devil.”
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    Romans 16:24-25 “…in keeping with the revelation OF THE MYSTERY HIDDEN for long ages past, BUT NOW REVEALED and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God,..”

    ‘Ephesians 3:8-10 “Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and TO MAKE PLAIN TO EVERYONE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS MYSTERY, WHICH FOR AGES PAST WAS KEPT HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all things. His intent was that NOW, THROUGH THE CHURCH, THE ****MANIFOLD**** WISDOM of God SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,…”

    ‘Colossians 1:26 “the MYSTERY THAT HAS BEEN KEPT HIDDEN for ages and generations, BUT IS NOW DISCLOSED TO THE LORD’S PEOPLE.”’
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    “Echo said: ““All the revelation we need is now contained in the scriptures ALONE.”

    Ralph replied: “That is demonstrably untrue. If the Bible was sufficient, then there wouldn’t be such confusion in the Christian world.”
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    The bible itself teaches that there will be false teachers IN THE CHURCH, false prophets, those who only want to hear what their itching ears want to hear, the antichrist will set himself up in the church etc. And the LDS Church with it’s false prophets and different gospel that the bible warns against and their false claim that they are Christian, just adds to the confusion. Yes! The devil is hard at work amongst the Christians trying to destroy God’s plan for his church!

    But God’s WORD is a lamp unto our feet and a light for our path, NOT REVELATION! Revelation just adds to the problem in paramount ways!

    Ralph said: “You are simply attempting to make the writings of the apostles and prophets more important than the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And therefore more important than God, Himself.”

    The writings of the apostles and prophets ARE the Holy Spirit’s words!

    2 Thess 2:9-12 ” The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    God sent a powerful delusion so that people who refused to love the truth, truth such as: “God justifieth the ungodly” would believe the lie…

    So my question is, How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God? Or how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?

    Ralph said: “We have already discussed this topic and you lost. Joseph was correct, and it has been shown so using the Bible. And I can see that Bible worship is blinding you to the truth.”

    I think God has made his point clear. God justifieth the ungodly. We don’t need Joseph nor you to change his word.

  28. 28 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 6:17 am

    Thanks for letting us know.

  29. 29 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    “The account prior to the description of man being created by God from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2 isn’t chronological so Man wasn’t created prior to the sixth day of creation but even so it is clear man wasn’t created before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 so God couldn’t have been a man first as man still didn’t exist yet before God created him.”

    Humm,

    There is nothing in the Genesis creation story that says that Genesis 2 isn’t chronological. Where did you get this? It is from the wisdom of man? Is it something that was added to the creation story and it isn’t in Genesis?

  30. 30 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    “The problem is that the presence of JESUS was instrumental in this account. Not the HOLY SPIRIT…”

    And you are ASSUMING that the influence of the Holy Spirit would be different than the influence of Jesus’ spirit.

    “John 16:7-15 explains that the SPIRIT could only be sent AFTER Jesus went away…”

    And Matt 3:16, 4:1, 12:28, Mark 1:10, 12, John 1:32-33, 3:34, etc. explain that the Spirit was WITH JESUS.

    Sorry Echo but Paul’s writings don’t supersede the teachings of Jesus. And the “prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God” refer to Old Testament writings NOT New Testament ones. So these verses (which you interpret using man’s wisdom and not the Spirit of God) don’t support your man made premise.

    “But God’s WORD is a lamp unto our feet and a light for our path, NOT REVELATION! Revelation just adds to the problem in paramount ways!”

    Revelation from the Holy Spirit IS God’s word. In fact a person can’t know that Jesus is the Christ without revelation.

    Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

    “The writings of the apostles and prophets ARE the Holy Spirit’s words!”

    No, they are the word of the apostles and prophets that they wrote while under the inspiration of the Spirit. And the only way to understand what they really mean is through that same Spirit, ie revelation from the Holy Spirit. But using the wisdom of man you are rejecting the revelation from the Holy Spirit.

    How very sad.

    For as Paul said, Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    The only way the Holy Spirit can lead you is by revelation from the Holy Spirit.

    Even at times in prayer the Spirit reveals to us what we pray.
    Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    It is sad to see you reject this wonderful revelation. The delusion is that revelation is no longer needed.

  31. 31 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    Ralph,

    2 Thess 2:9-12 ” The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    God sent a powerful delusion so that people who refused to love the truth would believe the lie….

    So my question is, How can you be certain that this “revelation of the Holy Spirit” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God? Or how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?

  32. 32 jbr
    May 24, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    Echo……

    Jesus is to some a “precious stone” and for others “A stone that causes men to stumble.”

    “A stone that causes men to stumble.” … is a Jesus that is logical and Ralph believes in a logical Jesus.

    How else does one start or stop climbing that ladder of Ralph’s?

  33. 33 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    So my question is, How can you be certain that this “A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God? Or how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?

  34. 34 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    Since you reject the revelation of the Holy Spirit, how do you know that your interpretation based upon your own reason (the reason of man and not the revelation of God) is correct?

  35. 35 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    Ralph said: “So my question is, How can you be certain that this “A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God? Or how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?”

    Ralph, you are avoiding the question. I guess that means you don’t have an answer.

  36. 36 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    Echo,
    You are avoiding the question. I guess that means you don’t have an answer.

  37. 37 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    I am not avoiding the question. I asked you a question and you are avoiding answering it by asking me basically the same question. Nice try. You don’t have an answer do you.

  38. 38 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    I already answered your question in post #10.

    So, I am not avoiding the question. I asked you a question and you are avoiding answering it by asking a question I already answered.

    Nice try, you don’t have an answer do you?

  39. 39 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Ralph said: “I already answered your question in post #10.”

    Here is what you said in post 10:…

    post 10: “Wrong. I am using the revelation of the Holy Spirit and not your faulty doctrines of men.”

    That’s not an answer.

  40. 40 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    I am not surprised that you ignore this OBVIOUS answer.

    Anything to avoid answering my question, because you don’t have an answer.

  41. 41 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    Well did Paul speak of people like Echo.
    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

    And here is more scripture that Echo rejects.

    1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  42. 42 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Notice how Ralph creates a distraction from his inability to answer the question.

  43. 43 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    Nice how Echo creates a distraction from his rejection of the Spirit of God and scripture.

  44. 44 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    I don’t reject the Spirit of God and scripture.

    But I am going to wait for you to answer the question fully before I say anything more in this thread.

  45. 45 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Sure you do. You even said so in this thread with this statement.

    “Today we have no more need of revelation.” (see post #23)

    So, yes you reject the Spirit of God and this scripture.

    1 Cor 2:10 But God hath REVEALED them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
    12 Now WE HAVE RECEIVED, not the spirit of the world, but THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS that are freely GIVEN TO US OF GOD.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    “But I am going to wait for you to answer the question fully before I say anything more in this thread.”

    LOL!
    So you can’t answer the question. I get it.

  46. 46 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    More distractions hey Ralph.

    Waiting for you to answer the question.

  47. 47 Ralph Peterson
    May 24, 2011 at 8:53 pm

    “But I am going to wait for you to answer the question fully before I say anything more in this thread.”

    Yeah, right.

    Already answered the question. You just can’t answer mine.

  48. 48 Echo
    May 24, 2011 at 8:56 pm

    Where is your answer Ralph?

  49. 49 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Echo,

    What part of “But God hath REVEALED them unto us by his Spirit” is so difficult for you to grasp?

    And what part of “I am using the revelation of the Holy Spirit and not your faulty doctrines of men” don’t you get?

    And just for the record, those are rhetorical questions.

  50. 50 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    And my question was,

    How can you be certain that what is “revealed” to you is truly of the Holy Spirit and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from the Holy Spirit? And how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?

    Which part of those questions is so difficult for you to grasp?

    It’s profound isn’t it. The whole LDS Church is built upon personal revelation and BANG! Someone as knowledgable as Ralph doesn’t have the answer to what is possibly the most important question an LDS person can be asked.

  51. 51 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    I already explained this to you as well.

    How do you explain to a person that was born blind the color yellow? Simply you can’t. They have no frame of reference to understand.

    This is like explaining revelation from the Holy Spirit to someone like you.

    You haven’t experienced it and even reject its possibility. You have no frame of reference.

    What part of this is so difficult for you to grasp?

    It’s profound isn’t it. The whole Evangelical church is built upon the wisdom of men and the rejection of revelation from God.

  52. 52 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    Ralph said: “This is like explaining revelation from the Holy Spirit to someone like you. You haven’t experienced it”

    Ralph, it’s YOU who is having difficulty grasping this.

    I am not asking you to describe your experience or your revelation. I am asking you how do you know that this “experience” or “revelation” that you are having is from God or is from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God. I am asking you how you know that God hasn’t himself sent you a delusion so that you will believe a lie.

    Anyone can have profound spiritual experiences. They can even see an angel! They can see and experience miracles, signs and wonders. That doesn’t mean that the profound experiences or the visitation of an angel are from God…

    So my question isn’t: “what are you experiencing?” but rather: “how do you know that what you are experiencing is from God and not from Satan. How do you know that God isn’t sending you a delusion so that you will believe the lie?

  53. 53 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    You keep quoting 2 Thess 2:11 and yet you don’t understand it or its context.

    7 For the mystery of INIQUITY doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in them that perish; because they received not the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Delusion comes to those that reject righteousness/obedience, seek pleasure in sin and reject the truth taught by the Holy Spirit.

    By your own admission, I seek righteousness, reject the justification of the wicked, and accept the revelation of the truth from the Holy Spirit.

    Also I have used Jesus’ test.
    John 7:17 If any man WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    I also have the word of Peter.
    Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.

    Too bad you reject all this stuff.

  54. 54 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    Nice try Ralph. You’re trying to skirt the issue here once again. Just answer the question!

  55. 55 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    LOL!

    You just can’t accept the OBVIOUS because then you would need to answer my question, which you CAN’T.

    LOL!

  56. 56 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 7:43 pm

    Nice try again Ralph. We are talking about Revelation that ***YOU*** recieve. We are not talking about my beliefs yet.

    Now answer the question!

  57. 57 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    Why won’t you just admit you don’t have the answer instead of trying to skirt the issue?

  58. 58 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    Why don’t you just admit that you don’t have an answer instead of whining about my answer?

  59. 59 Echo
    May 25, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Nice try Ralph. I have an answer. But I asked the question, it is my question and since you don’t have an answer, you’re attempting to get me to answer my own question first in order to distract the conversation away from the fact that you don’t have an answer.

  60. 60 Ralph Peterson
    May 25, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    Nice try Echo. I gave an answer. But I asked a question, it is my question and since you don’t have an answer, you’re just whining about my answer in order to distract the conversation away from the fact that you don’t have an answer.

  61. 61 Kent
    May 26, 2011 at 5:40 am

    Ralph said,

    “So my question is, How can you be certain that this “A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible” that you speak about is from God and not from Satan deceiving you into thinking it is from God? Or how can you be certain God hasn’t send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie?”

    I believe it is from God because the Bible, God’s word, says it is from God and I have faith that is from God.

    So one question, if it isn’t from God, then why Ralph do you use it at all?

    So the choice is, use and trust the Bible and believe one gospel

    OR

    Beleive what the Mormon Church teaches.

    I know you, Ralph, is going to say that I am still harping on what you consider a false premise but sadly, you seem to have rejected the true gospel of the Bible but others who come here may be questioning what they have been taught all of their lives and this is who I post for. To them I say, read just the Bible and trust have faith that it is the complete and true word of God and the truth will set you free.

  62. 62 Kent
    May 26, 2011 at 6:41 am

    Mormons, the passages below are the gospel and you can know for sure you can be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when you die IF YOU JUST HEAR AND BELIEVE THOSE WORDS FROM THE TRUE WORD OF GOD, THE BIBLE.

    SAVED AND EVERLASTING LIFE=BEING WITH HEAVENLY FATHER AND JESUS FOREVER and not just a chance to someday, if you are worthy enough, to be there.

    Acts 2:38

    REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Romans 10:9-13

    THAT IF THOU SHALT CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS, AND SHALT BELIEVE IN THINE HEART THAT GOD HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

    John 3:16-18

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

    John 14:6

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

    On the other hand, if people who don’t believe in Jesus Christ they end up CONDEMNED IN HELL where there is eternal punishment (See John 3:18) so Jesus is the only way to heaven.

  63. 63 Kent
    May 26, 2011 at 6:54 am

    Some more verses concerning salvation, again saved means being able to be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when we die and not just a chance to someday, if we are worthy enough, to be there.

    Acts 16:30-34

    Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

  64. 64 Kent
    May 26, 2011 at 6:56 am

    I said, “Some more verses concerning salvation, again saved means being able to be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when we die and not just a chance to someday, if we are worthy enough, to be there.

    I think it would be better worded that we will be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when we die, not just be able to be there.

  65. 65 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    So you believe the Bible is from God, because the Bible says so?

    Here are some problems with your (man’s) reasoning.

    1)The Koran says it is from God, why don’t you believe that?

    2) The Bible doesn’t say that for itself because it is a collection of writings from different authors at different times. This collection, as you accept it, wasn’t assembled until the Protestant reformation, more than 1000 years AFTER the last author. The Bible as an entity doesn’t say ANYTHING about itself.

    “So the choice is, use and trust the Bible and believe one gospel
    OR
    Beleive what the Mormon Church teaches.”

    Continuing with the logical fallacy of the FALSE CHOICE.

    I believe the Bible is the word of God. I study it often. I am continually amazed at how consistent it is with LDS theology and inconsistent with Evangelical theology.

  66. 66 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    I believe and accept everyone of those verses.

    You can’t really believe in Jesus Christ without obeying Him.

    Confessing Jesus is Lord, to be affective, must be more than lip service. As Paul said,
    1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and THAT NO MAN CAN SAY THAT JESUS IS THE LORD, BUT BY THE HOLY GHOST.

    One must have a witness of the Holy Ghost to truly say that “Jesus is the Lord”. And the Holy Ghost is given to the obedient.

  67. 67 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    How can you really believe on Jesus without obeying Jesus?

    How can you know a master you have not served?

    Giving lip service “believing” like the devils do, isn’t enough.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Giving lip service “confession” like the devils do, isn’t enough.

    Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
    7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
    8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
    9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

  68. 68 Kent
    May 26, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    I am obeying Him because he has told us to believe in Him (Jesus) who He (The Father) has sent.

    John 6:29

    “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.”

    Yes, Jesus wants us to do good works but good works follow from being saved but are not what saves us.

  69. 69 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    So, you are obeying one of God’s commandments. And it is the same one that the devils also obey.

    Good for you.

  70. 70 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    ” . . . good works follow from being saved . . .”

    According to Jesus, salvation comes AFTER enduring to the end.
    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    So good works have to wait until then?

  71. 71 jbr
    May 26, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    For those who are wondering if the Bible collaborates LDS theology or Evangelical:

    Do what the Bereans did Acts 17:11 ……… they verified Paul’s revelations thta he was speaking with the existing scriptures, the OT.

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Compare LDS theology to the OT………what will you find?

    LDS theology teaches: Jesus and Satan are brothers
    The OT scriptures …. doesn’t

    LDS theology teaches: there are multiple God’s
    The OT scriptures teaches: there is only one God – God knows of no other

    LDS theology teaches: the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing
    The OT teaches: it was eternally bad for humanity and the creation was subjected death

    LDS theology teaches: Rejects original sin
    The OT teaches: Humans are conceived as sinners

    LDS theology teaches: continual revelations
    The OT teaches: that God himself will come be the shepherd

    LDS theology teaches: Salvation by obeying the law
    The OT teaches: Salvation by faith in the blood sacrifice offered

    LDS theology teaches: Jesus is an example to follow
    The OT teaches: God accepting the sacrifices of anaimals as the subsitute for payment of sin

    Could I continue …. yes.
    Could I use the NT as further proof ….. yes.

    __________________________________________________________________________

    The real question for anybody that is considering LDS at this point …….
    Who has absolute truth for salvation…?

    God’s Word the Bible
    or
    a organization

  72. 72 Ralph Peterson
    May 26, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    This is classic logical fallacy of the “red herring”.

    The Bible teaches that Satan is a son of God.
    Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
    Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

    It also teaches that Jesus is a son of God.
    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    ———
    Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
    19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
    20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
    • • •
    22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

    Dan. 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
    • • •
    21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

    Ps. 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.

    Ps. 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

    Ps. 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Dan. 3:26 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

    Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

    Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

    Heb. 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

    ———–
    “The OT teaches: it was eternally bad for humanity and the creation was subjected death”

    Where in the Old Testament is that taught.

    ————
    The OT teaches: Humans are conceived as sinners

    Actually it is the adulterous murderer David that claims this. Just after he claims that God is the only one he sinned against. I wonder how Uriah feels about that.

    —————
    “LDS theology teaches: continual revelations
    The OT teaches: that God himself will come be the shepherd”

    Another FALSE DICHOTOMY.

    ————–
    “LDS theology teaches: Salvation by obeying the law”

    A classic misrepresentation of LDS teachings. A correct statement would be this.

    We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    “The OT teaches: Salvation by faith in the blood sacrifice offered ”
    Really? So the prophet Samuel got it wrong?

    1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, TO OBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

    Who knew?

    ————–
    “LDS theology teaches: Jesus is an example to follow”

    Gee, I wonder why? Could it be,

    Matt. 4: 19 Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
    Mark 8: 34 (Mark 10: 21; Luke 9: 23) take up his cross, and follow me.
    John 10: 27 My sheep . . . follow me.
    John 13: 15 given you an example . . . do as I have done.
    John 14: 6 I am the way.
    John 21: 22 what is that to thee? follow thou me.
    Eph. 5: 1 be ye therefore followers of God.
    1 Pet. 2: 21 Christ . . . an example, that ye should follow his steps.
    1 Jn. 4: 17 as he is, so are we.

    “God’s Word the Bible”
    Deifying the Bible are you?

    God’s word can be found in the Bible.

    God’s Word is Jesus Christ.

    Two different entities.

  73. 73 Kent
    May 27, 2011 at 6:02 am

    Ralph said, “The Bible teaches that Satan is a son of God.
    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
    Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

    It also teaches that Jesus is a son of God.
    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”

    It doesn’t appear the Bible says that Satan is a son of God just that he was among them. Also, Jesus isn’t just a son of of God but THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, in a class by Himself. But even if Satan is a son of God that fell, it still doesn’t make him the one and only Son of God, So he is not in the same class as Jesus Himself and in fact no one else is either.

    note: Some people say that term sons of God in some passages in Genesis and Job are referring to angels but if Satan is a son of God, a fallen angel or not, he still is a created being, again, not in the class of Jesus Christ who is one and only SON Of God who created everything that there is.

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, that he gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 1:14

    “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) full of grace and truth.”

    In addition to being the only Son of God, Jesus is the second member of the trinity who is God Almighty Himself. John 1 clearly states that He is God no matter if you say, ‘but in the original greek it means this or that’, as there are a lot of very reputable scholars that state the greek agrees with what the English translations say.

    John 1:1-3

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    Also, in Exodus 3 God the Father said when Moses asked Him who was sending him to the people that is name is I AM and Jesus Himself called Himself God when he also referred to Himself as I AM in John 8.

    Exodus 3:13-14

    “And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

    John 8:58

    “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

    Ralph, I hope for your sake I am wrong about this, but you may be getting your reward here on earth if it is about you winning the debate here but that wouldn’t transfer to a reward in heaven as I can imagine you standing in front of God saying, “but I was clever and I was winning the debate.”

    But whatever the case is, I am not always just talking to you when I try to answer your posts here but to Mormons who may be questioning what they have been taught all of their lives to them I say, and will continue to say, accept the Bible as the true word of God that teaches who the true Jesus Christ is and have faith in the true Jesus and what He did on the cross in our place. It is all about the cross and the blood he shed for all of us and how He rose again on the third day and yes you can know now that you will be with Heavenly Father forever.

    In closing, the Bible doesn’t teach that Jesus is the brother of Satan so your church is teaching a falsehood.

    Mormons, just read the Bible for a time and nothing else and your eyes will be opened!

  74. 74 Kent
    May 27, 2011 at 6:39 am

    Regarding enduring to the end, it means that we are to maintain our faith no matter what and it is not referring to continually doing works to gain God’s favor.

    The context is that we not deny our faith even to the point of death, which is what the many martyrs have done through the centuries. Personally I hope I never have to be put to the test in this way but I have to be willing to die before renouncing my faith. But even if I do renounce my faith, under duress, that still can be forgiven as shown by Peter denying Jesus three times right before Jesus went to the cross and I believe Peter is in heaven now and because of his faith in Jesus, he didn’t have to be perfect as long as he repented of his sin, which I believe he did.

    The choice is we either we are perfect in all of our works and never falter even once for our whole lives, than we live by the law

    OR

    Accept God’s free gift of grace that Jesus gave us by His shedding His blood on the cross where we ourselves don’t have to be perfect as we put on His righteousness so that God doesn’t see our sins anymore.

    Sure God wants us to do good works all of our lives but you, me, and no one else can ever do them completely perfect ever.

    Shem, a mormon who posts here, used the analogy of a mathematical equation.

    (Good works-Bad works) x Grace = Faith

    The problem with this is that the left side of the equation, unless it is perfect all of our lives, equals zero and besides, the Bible says that our rightoueness is as fithy rags and that there is none righteous, no not one. So since the equation is multiplication, Zero x anthing = zero.

    On the other hand, Grace, which is a free gift that can’t be paid back always equals grace.

    Grace = Grace = Faith.

  75. 75 Ralph Peterson
    May 27, 2011 at 5:34 pm

    “It doesn’t appear the Bible says that Satan is a son of God just that he was among them.”

    LOL, So a group of the “sons of God” come forth and Satan is among them (the sons of God) “doesn’t appear the Bible says that Satan is a son of God”?

    Right!

    “Also, Jesus isn’t just a son of of God but THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, in a class by Himself.”

    Does that mean that He isn’t a son of God?

    “But even if Satan is a son of God that fell, it still doesn’t make him the one and only Son of God, . . .”

    True, but irrelevant because NO ONE is making that claim.

    “So he is not in the same class as Jesus Himself and in fact no one else is either.”
    Nice straw man. No one is claiming that Satan is in the class that Jesus is the only member of.

    “note: Some people say . . . blah blah . . . .”
    So? Some people smoke dope.

    Where is your Biblical support?

  76. 76 Ralph Peterson
    May 27, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    “Regarding enduring to the end, it means that we are to maintain our faith no matter what and it is not referring to continually doing works to gain God’s favor.”

    That is NOT what JESUS said.

    According to Jesus, salvation comes AFTER enduring to the end.
    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    What part of “shall be saved” AFTER “enduring to the end” is so difficult to get?

    You whole position falls a part.

    If you are “saved” (as you say) then you are saved. If you have to “maintain our faith no matter what” then you are NOT saved until AFTER the end.

    – – –

    Again you revert to the FALSE CHOICE fallacy. Why do you keep doing that? I don’t understand why you think you will be convincing when you keep doing that, especially after it is pointed out to you.

  77. 77 jbr
    May 28, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    It was unfortunate that there were some who really placed their trust in the “unsinkable ship” Titanic. For what ever reason they placed their trust in revelations by White Star.

    Looking back … as the author originally said: “(it) boggle our minds. Things that are far beyond us. Things that we can’t understand. Things that we can’t reconcile logically.”

    As I read scripture, we are told that some are so wanton to believe anything other than the truth, that God makes it impossible for the truth to be seen.

    “Therefore we should expect to encounter things – many things – in God’s revelation.”

  78. 78 Kent
    May 28, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    The passages below seemingly contradict each other as from Romans 10 it shows that if we believe in Jesus, confess Him with our mouths and if we call on His name that we will be saved. While the passage from Matthew 24 says that if we endure to the end will be saved.

    Romans 10:9, 13
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    OR

    Matthew 24:13
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    So which is it? I would say both as yes believing in Jesus saves us but our continuing in the faith no matter what life throws at us, enduring to the end, is evidence that we are saved but not what saves us as it is the blood of Jesus shed of the cross on our place and rising again on the third and nothing else that saves us.

    Again, saved by his blood on the cross doesn’t mean just living again in the after life with a chance to someday, by our own efforts of climbing the ladder of someday, maybe, being in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Saved by His blood means being with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever.

  79. 79 Kent
    May 29, 2011 at 12:17 am

    Ralph, Jesus Christ, as I said, is not just a son of God but the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of His time would not have killed Him if He just said He was a son of God as they themselves considered themselves sons of God.

    Matthew 26:63-66

    “But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

    Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

    What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.”

    Mormons, Jesus Christ was never a man first on some other planet, He was God Almighty who came for a time on earth to be the only perfect man who never sinned to be the perfect sacrifice foretold by the Old Testament sacfifices and prophets who couldn’t have been that perfect man if he wasn’t God Almighty, Emanuel God among us, and Jesus Christ never was and never will be the spirit brother of Satan.

    Trust and believe in the true Jesus of the Bible and you will be set free!

  80. 80 Kent
    May 29, 2011 at 12:19 am

    I said, “Jesus Christ was never a man first on some other planet, He was God Almighty”

    That would be better worded, “He is God Almighty.”

  81. 81 Ralph Peterson
    May 31, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    It is strange that you would quote one part of Romans (which you misunderstand) and fail to see another part of Romans that disagrees with your misinterpretation.

    Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

  82. 82 Ralph Peterson
    May 31, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    We are all spirit children of God, the Father.

    Heb. 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    “Mormons, Jesus Christ was never a man first on some other planet, . . .”
    I don’t know where you get this stuff. Mormons don’t believe that. That fact that you can’t get our beliefs right is telling.

    “He was God Almighty who came for a time on earth . . . ”
    Well, again it is OBVIOUS that you don’t really have a clue what we really believe. And you also have a problem with what Jesus said about himself.

    Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Why did Jesus need to be given “all power”? Because He, at sometime did NOT have it. That means that He didn’t always have it.

    Who gave it to Him? Obviously someone else that had it.

    Sometime I wonder if you guys even read the Bible.

  83. 83 Echo
    May 31, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    Ralph said: “It is strange that you would quote one part of Romans (which you misunderstand) and fail to see another part of Romans that disagrees with your misinterpretation.”

    Ralph, It is you who fails to see.

    ** We are not saved because of our works, that’s why we do good works.
    ** We are saved through faith alone but faith is never alone.
    ** We are free from the law, therefore we want to obey the law

    You Ralph are a slave to the law, we are not. We are free from the law
    You HAVE to obey the law, we WANT to obey the law.

    Slaves are not SONS, slaves have no permanent place in the family of God
    Sons have a permanent place in the family of God.

  84. 84 Ralph Peterson
    May 31, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Still misrepresenting what we believe I see.

    Like I said, failure to see the part of Romans that disagrees with your misinterpretation.

    Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 BUT GLORY, HONOUR, AND PEACE, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    These verses make it clear that obedience to God TO THE END is required for eternal life.

    Which is in complete agreement with what Jesus said,

    Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Sorry guys but ACCORDING TO JESUS, salvation comes after death, not before.

  85. 85 Ralph Peterson
    May 31, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    ** We are saved through faith alone but faith is never alone.

    That sounds silly.

    Plus, did you know that the ONLY verse in the Bible that has both “faith” and “only” is
    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    “Faith alone” doesn’t save at all, because “faith alone” is DEAD!!!!

    ** We are free from the law, therefore we want to obey the law

    That sounds even sillier.

  86. 86 Echo
    June 1, 2011 at 12:10 am

    Ralph said: “That sounds silly.”

    The Bible does say that our message will sound “silly” to those who are perishing…

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”

  87. 87 Echo
    June 1, 2011 at 12:59 am

    Ralph said: ““Faith alone” doesn’t save at all, because “faith alone” is DEAD!!!!”

    We are saved through faith alone, but faith is NEVER alone. Don’t you get it?…It’s pretty simple.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

  88. 88 Ralph Peterson
    June 1, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    Yup!

    God has blinded Echo’s mind. He can’t see the OBVIOUS!

    “We are saved through faith alone, but faith is NEVER alone.”

    Still a silly statement that means nothing.

    “Don’t you get it?…It’s pretty simple.”

    Yes I get it. Your mind has been blinded so that silliness sounds wonderful to you.

    You can’t be saved by “faith alone” because according to the BIBLE, “faith alone” is DEAD!!!

    Why does the Bible say that “faith alone” is DEAD if faith can never be alone? Because it can be alone and when it is alone it is DEAD!

  89. 89 Ralph Peterson
    June 1, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    Yup!

    To you, the TRUE GOSPEL is foolishness.

    I get that.

  90. 90 Echo
    June 1, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    Ralph said: “Why does the Bible say that “faith alone” is DEAD if faith can never be alone? Because it can be alone and when it is alone it is DEAD!”

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    James is talking about someone who “professes” to have faith but desires to live a life that is not pleasing to God…they aren’t interested in doing any works. In other words, they don’t really have faith. Their claim to faith is simply… hypocrisy.

    When a man marries a woman, he devotes the rest of his life to loving and serving his wife. This man truly loves his wife.

    If a man marries a woman and then goes around committing adultery every chance he gets, his “love” for his wife is hypocrisy.

  91. 91 Ralph Peterson
    June 1, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    “James is talking about someone who “professes” to have faith but desires to live a life that is not pleasing to God…they aren’t interested in doing any works.”

    So then, works ARE important then aren’t they! By works, we not only prove our faith but increase it.

    “In other words, they don’t really have faith.”

    According to James, they do have faith. They have a DEAD faith. A “faith alone” DEAD faith.

    “Their claim to faith is simply… hypocrisy.”

    Actually, their claim to “faith alone” “is simply… hypocrisy”.

  92. 92 Echo
    June 1, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    Ralph said: “So then, works ARE important then aren’t they!”

    Works don’t have anything to do with our salvation. But yes, a Christian’s life is full of good works. A Christian desires to be obedient to God.

    Ralph said: “According to James, they do have faith. They have a DEAD faith. A “faith alone” DEAD faith.”

    A dead faith isn’t saving faith. It’s the same kind of faith that Satan and his demons have…

    James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

    Ralph said: “Actually, their claim to “faith alone” “is simply… hypocrisy”.”

    Actually, someone such as yourself who claims we are saved by obedience to ALL of the commandments and who himself doesn’t obey ALL the commandments is a hypocrite.


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