07
Jul
11

We are all Christians?

An ongoing source of contention between Christians and Mormons is the Mormon claim that we are all Christians.  I hesitate to bring this up again because this subject has created more than a few less than helpful comments on this blog alone.  But here it goes.

The reason I’m raising this subject again is because of an incident that happened recently.  A gentle woman, who was raised LDS, has been attending our church faithfully for a number of months.  She finally decided to officially ask to be released from membership in the LDS Church.  She wrote the required letter.  She was contacted by the bishop and an appointment to meet was set up.  At that appointment he warned her of the grave consequences of leaving the church.  That alone doesn’t fit in with the “we are all Christians” mindset.  But then came the clincher.  She asked if he was going to tell her family since she wanted to do that herself.  He replied, “Why would I tell them.  You no longer exist.”

To those Mormons reading this, please, before you whip off a comment, please, stop and try to understand how comments like that cause Christians difficulty in taking seriously the mantra we hear from Mormons that we are all Christians.  If the Mormon Church really believed that, why would an official representative say something like that?  Why would leaving the Mormon Church for a Christian church be such a big deal?  And this is not an isolated example.  Many ex-Mormons can testify to hearing similar things from family and church officials.  Such treatment contradicts the statement, “we are all Christian”.  Is that so difficult to see?

Bruce R. McConkie, in 1979, in his classic book, “Mormon Doctrine”, stated the position of Mormonism much more honestly.  He wrote, “Christianity is found among the saints who have the fullness of the gospel, and a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christianity” (p. 132).  Pretty strong.  But pretty honest. At least McConkie acknowledged the great difference between Mormonism and Christianity.

There is a huge difference between the teachings of Mormonism and Christianity.  I wish that more Mormons would acknowledge that rather than obscuring it.

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244 Responses to “We are all Christians?”


  1. 1 Kent
    July 7, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    The Mormon bishop said, “Why would I tell them. You no longer exist.” Sounds like a cult to me and I don’t see any way to explain this otherwise because if we really are all Christians in the eyes of Mormons but we just don’t have the so called fullness of the gospel, then it wouldn’t be such a big deal to Mormons, as Mr. Cares says, if people do leave their church.

  2. 2 Kent
    July 7, 2011 at 11:48 pm

    Here is a testimony of an ex Mormon and why she left the Mormon Church. She doesn’t speak personally about being ostrasized by her former church for leaving but she does give very compelling reasons as to why she left the chruch.

    http://exmormonstestify.com/sharon-taylor/

  3. July 8, 2011 at 6:20 am

    Wow. Ouch. My heart goes out to that poor lady.

    To be fair, on the other side of the issue (the Christian side) I see a lot of people falling for this line that Mormons and Christians are all “Christians.” One big reason that they say it is that from day to day the Mormon message about being a good moral person is not much different than what you get as a staple diet in the typical evangelical church. This is a dire criticism of the evangelical church. Evangelicalism has take up what we call a theology of glory (the improvement of human behavior/life circumstances) as opposed to a theology of the cross (lifting up Christ and his atoning work). We preach a law based message (either God’s law or man’s ‘good advice’) and then wonder why people struggle so much to grow in Christ, when it is the gospel which both saves and sanctifies us.

  4. 4 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Some corrections,

    “An ongoing source of contention between Evangelical Christians and Mormon Christians is the Mormon claim that we are all Christians.”

    All “Christians” are not equally “Christian”, and not all Christians will be saved.
    – – –
    “A gentle woman, who was raised LDS, . . .”

    Anecdotal evidence.

    Besides, there are numerous LDS converts that experienced the same behavior from their former friends/family/pastors/etc. as you are claiming here.

    So what?
    – – –
    “To those Mormon Christians reading this, please, before you whip off a comment, please, stop and try to understand how comments like that cause Evangelical Christians difficulty in taking seriously the mantra we hear from Mormon Christians that we are all Christians.”
    – – –
    “If The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints really believed that, why would an official representative say something like that?”

    Sorry, but a Bishop isn’t an official representative of “the Church”, he is only a local leader. Besides we only have second hand hearsay evidence that he actually did say “something like that”.
    – – –
    “Why would leaving the True Church of JESUS CHRIST for an apostate Christian church be such a big deal?”

    That question, as corrected, answers itself.
    – – –
    “Many ex-Mormon Christians can testify to hearing similar things from family and church officials.”

    And many ex-Evangelical Christians can testify to hearing similar things from family and Evangelical church officials. So what?
    – – –
    Bruce R. McConkie, in 1979, in his classic book, “Mormon Doctrine”, . . .

    Which he wrote prior to becoming an Apostle. And which he took total responsibility for. Did you not read his disclaimer at the front?
    – – –
    “But pretty honest. At least McConkie acknowledged the great difference between Mormonism (true Christianity) and apostate Christianity.”

    Yes, he did. One has the authority to administer the ordinances of salvation and the others do not. Rather simple.
    – – –
    “There is a huge difference between the teachings of True Christianity (Mormonism) and apostate Christianity.”
    – – –
    ” I wish that more Mormons would acknowledge that rather than obscuring it.”

    By the corrections I have made I have not only acknowledged the differences but clarified them.

  5. 5 markcares
    July 8, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Ralph:
    What is your definition of a Christian? And secondly, what is your definition of an apostate Christianity?

  6. 6 Martha
    July 8, 2011 at 8:07 pm

    When the Mormon church told my father (who was a bishop) to excommunicate my brother, my brother did not exist to them for 2 years. I was the only one who know where he was. My father actually stated a few months ago, “that wouldn’t happen now.” What!! Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Mormon church changes with the times. (ie. polygamy, blacks, who is excommunicated and for what). Face it. It’s built on sand. Ralph Peterson I pray that God will remove the scales from your eyes so that you may see the true Jesus.

  7. 7 markcares
    July 8, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Ralph:
    The more I think about it, I probably shouldn’t have asked you about your definitions since you are not an official representative of the church and thus your words carry no weight.

  8. 8 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Ha ha ha.

    Sorry to break the news to you but the true church changes policies from time to time.

    Have you not read Acts 10?

    You know, where the ancient Christian church changed it’s policy of not preaching the gospel to the gentiles?

  9. 9 Martha
    July 8, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Sorry to break the news to you Ralph, but preaching to the gentiles is mentioned many times in the Old Testament. Read your Bible.

  10. 10 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    I am content to use the standard definition in common usage as found in a dictionary.

    1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
    2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
    3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.

    Apostate Christianity would be any version of Christianity that rejects fundamental portions of True Christianity.

  11. 11 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 8:49 pm

    Sorry to break the news to you, but that doesn’t change the facts of the case as found in Acts 10.

    Read your Bible.

  12. 12 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    Do you think that The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints has a special definition of “Christian”?

  13. 13 Ralph Peterson
    July 8, 2011 at 8:52 pm

    “Sorry to break the news to you Ralph, but preaching to the gentiles is mentioned many times in the Old Testament. Read your Bible.”

    Could you provide a few examples?

  14. 14 Kent
    July 8, 2011 at 9:45 pm

    Ralph said,

    “And many ex-Evangelical Christians can testify to hearing similar things from family and Evangelical church officials. So what?”

    Name some examples of this happening as from my experience people at someone’s former church will often say, “well if you being better fed spiritually at your new church, then God bless you.”

    Regarding if someone left their church and became a Mormon, the vast majority of people in what are considered main stream churhes would not turn their backs on someone but would tell them that they wish they would come back and they would pray for them to return to the fold.

    In my case, I have been baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran but I left the church and I now attend a non denominational church and when I see people from the Lutheran church they are friendly and while they wish I would come back, they wish me well. Mr. Cares can vouch for this regarding if people leave a Lutheran church and I know I can come back to the Lutherans at any time, no problem.

    If orstrasizing people who leave evangelical churches ever happens they are very isolated occurances while there are many stories of the opposite happening to ex Mormons.

  15. 15 Kent
    July 9, 2011 at 1:45 am

    Ralph said, “Ha ha ha.

    Sorry to break the news to you but the true church changes policies from time to time.

    Have you not read Acts 10?

    You know, where the ancient Christian church changed it’s policy of not preaching the gospel to the gentiles?”

    Ralph, that was God’s plan all along to have the gospel preached first to the Jews and then to the gentiles so it wasn’t a change in policy and it can be found all the way back in the beginning in Genesis when God tells Abram (Abraham) that in him all of the families of the earth will be blessed. After all, God would not have told Abram that all the families of the earth would be blessed if the gospel was to be just for the Jews.

    And, sorry, but the other sheep that is referred to to in John 10 is not the Mormons but instead it is talking about the gentiles. Acts 13 shows how the gospel was first preached to the Jews but in particular, the leadership, rejected it so then it was preached to the gentiles

    Genesis 12:1-3

    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
    2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Acts 13:44-47

    44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
    45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
    46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    John 10:16

    16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

  16. July 9, 2011 at 4:15 am

    Walter Kaiser has a classic book that deals with the topic – the universal mandate starting in Genesis.

  17. 17 Kent
    July 9, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    But Ralph will probably come back with some clever comeback as face it, he is a very good debater and he sometimes gets the better of me, a layman who sometimes doesn’t state things as well as I would like to.

    But just because he states things that seemingly, on the surface at least, contradict what people like me say, who really isn’t really isn’t as good of a debater, doesn’t make what he says true.

  18. 18 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    So, the change in policy wasn’t really a change in policy because the change in policy was planned by God from the time of Abraham?

    ?????

    Ok, so then any changes in policy in the true Church of Jesus Christ aren’t really changes in policy because they were planned by God from the time of Abraham.

    So, how exactly is your logic damaging to the true Church of Jesus Christ?

    Also,
    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Humm, that verse doesn’t mean what you think it means.

    Jesus also said, speaking to the Nephites,
    3 Nephi 15:21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
    23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
    24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

    Here is the policy straight from the mouth of Jesus.

    Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    And Act 10 documents the change in policy.

  19. 19 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Well, as one layman to another, may I suggest that you do your own study of the scriptures.

    Jesus declared the policy here,
    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    And here is where, through revelation to the prophet, the policy is changed,

    Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
    . . .
    34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    . . .
    Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
    2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

    (Apparently, the change in policy caused problems for some members of the Church.)

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    So, whether you like or not, changes in policy can and do occur in the true Church of Jesus Christ.

  20. 20 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Of course you can also mention the policy of circumcision, which also began with Abraham, but was discontinued after the atonement. There was also the sacrifices that originated back with Adam but were discontinued after Christ (as well as all the ceremonies that were added at the time of Moses).

    Of course, I have heard many declare that the prophets of the Old Testament didn’t actually have the gospel, but then that would prove the greatest change in policy (from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant).

    I think people just don’t want to see these things though.

  21. 21 Martha
    July 11, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    Read Ruth, Ralph not to mention many, many more. It’s even spoken about in Isaiah – you know the one book of the Bible you guys study. Sorry I don’t have time to look up specifics, but if you read the whole book, you’ll find it.

  22. 22 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    The real Issue here is not whether church policies(doctrine) change over time.

    In the OT we have circumcision. In the NT we have Baptism.
    In the OT we have Animal sacrifices. In the NT we have Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice. etc. etc.

    But rather, the issue is whether the church policies (doctrine) that change over time contradict any of God’s written word and/or contradict each other. And in this regard it’s as Martha stated: ” Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever” because God doesn’t contradict himself.

    A church that “changes with the times” as Martha stated is a statment referring to a church who’s current doctrine now contradicts doctrine that the church held in the past. But at the same time, that Church credits GOD as having the responsibility for both contradictory doctrines.

  23. 23 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    The occasional convert is not the same as large scale proselyting, nor is it the taking of the gospel to the Gentile nations.
    Yes, in the Old Testament there were many who came and joined themselves to the Jews and became part of the religion. The difference in this and what Ralph is talking about is most often it was not due to organized missionary work. There was never a time since Abraham when the leaders of the religion organized missionaries and sent them to the gentiles, until Peter had his vision.

    There was definitely a change in policy.

  24. 24 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Doctrine and policy are not the same thing. They are very different.

    Example: We have the doctrine of the Atonement of Christ. Before Christ the policy was to perform sacrifices as a symbol of what was to come. After Christ we partake of the sacrament as a way of remembering what has occurred. The doctrine that both of these policies are based on is the same, but the policies are vastly different.

    So, while the LDS church has changed its policy (just like the early Christian church) it has never changed its doctrine (just like the early Christian church). There are many accusation to this effect, but none really stand up to scrutiny.

  25. 25 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    Shem said: “The occasional convert is not the same as large scale proselyting, nor is it the taking of the gospel to the Gentile nations.
    Yes, in the Old Testament there were many who came and joined themselves to the Jews and became part of the religion. The difference in this and what Ralph is talking about is most often it was not due to organized missionary work. There was never a time since Abraham when the leaders of the religion organized missionaries and sent them to the gentiles, until Peter had his vision. There was definitely a change in policy.”

    There wasn’t a “change in policy” at all. God’s plan has always been to take to gospel to the Gentiles.
    (Isaiah 11;10; Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 49:2; Isaiah 54:3; Isaiah 60:3; Isaiah 60:5; Isaiah 61:9; Isaiah 62:2; Isaiah 66:19; etc)

    The problem here is that you use God’s plan to take the gospel to the Gentiles as scriptural support for changing doctrine in the present that contradicts God’s written word and what is said there.

  26. 26 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 7:35 pm

    “Read Ruth, Ralph not to mention many, many more.”

    Sorry, but Ruth was not sought out for conversion to the Israelite faith. You “claim” there are more, but you haven’t (can’t) provide them.

  27. 27 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    ECHO

    I know all about God’s plan. The fact remains that before Peter was given this vision God had not yet initiated that plan, and thus by initiating it he changed the way the church worked, and thus changed policy.

    By your reasoning the change in requiring circumcision (which you admit was a change in policy) was not a change at all, for God planned on it happening.
    (Or you can take the stand that he didn’t plan on it, and thus have him changing with the times.)

  28. 28 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    In the LDS…

    1) What was the previous doctrine on polygamy?
    2) What was the previous policy on polygamy?
    3) What is the current doctrine on polygamy?
    4) What is the current policy on polygamy?

    5) What was the previous doctrine on Blacks?
    6) What was the previous policy on Blacks?
    7) What is the current doctrine on Blacks?
    8) What is the current policy on Blacks?

    9) What was the previous doctrine on excommunication and for what?
    10) What was the previous policy on excommunication and for what?
    11) What is the current doctrine on excommunication and for what?
    12) What is the current policy on excommunication and for what?

  29. 29 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 7:43 pm

    Echo said, “There wasn’t a “change in policy” at all. God’s plan has always been to take to gospel to the Gentiles. (Isaiah 11;10; Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 49:2; Isaiah 54:3; Isaiah 60:3; Isaiah 60:5; Isaiah 61:9; Isaiah 62:2; Isaiah 66:19; etc)”

    “Always”?

    It wasn’t God’s plan as declared by Jesus here,

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    If, as you claim, it was “always” God’s policy, then Jesus CHANGED it with the verses shown above and then here is where, through revelation to the prophet, the policy is changed back, (that would make TWO changes in policy, using your logic)

    Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
    . . .
    34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    . . .
    Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
    2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

    (Apparently, the change in policy caused problems for some members of the Church, this is evidence AGAINST your position that it was “always” God plan.)

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    So, whether you like or not, changes in policy can and do occur in the true Church of Jesus Christ.

  30. 30 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    God never changes doctrine,

  31. 31 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    Even in the OT God said that the gospel would be brought to the Gentiles. That’s not a change in policy. It was clear even in the OT.

  32. 32 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:47 pm

    Don’t sell yourself short. Some of the conversations are confusing because folks are talking about different things specifically.

  33. 33 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    Here is an Evangelical change in not just policy but doctrine.

    Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    THAT used to be doctrine, but NOT anymore for Evangelicals. (You know, that “sola scriptura” thing.)

  34. 34 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    Ralph said: ““Always”?

    It wasn’t God’s plan as declared by Jesus here,

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel……”

    It was always God’s plan. The scriptures are clear. The fact that Jesus himself said this doesn’t negate the plan that would follow and that was prophecied about in the OT.

  35. 35 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    IF that is true, then why did JESUS say this?

    Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    You are contradicting JESUS again.

  36. 36 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    So, JESUS changed the policy away from God’s plan? But that doesn’t matter?

    So, you are claiming that it doesn’t matter that Jesus changed the policy here?

    Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    And then it was changed back (to the surprise of all) in Acts 10.

    Sorry, but that is STILL a change of policy.

    You, driven by your anti-Mormonism, have thrown Jesus under the bus.

    Just accept the fact that policy can and does change in the true Church of JESUS CHRIST.

  37. 37 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    It’s interesting that a church would tell a person that you don’t exist once you pull out. Who are they accountable to? God or the LDS Church! I have heard similar stories of LDS people getting out of the LDS Church and turning to Christianity, and as a result, they lose wife, kids, family and freinds etc.. Hardly the Christian response!

    To top it off, the LDS who want nothing to do with this person any longer blame Christianity for dividing the family! But it is the LDS who is dividing this family!

    A Christian would never do this to his family member if he went “Mormon” on them. Instead, a Christian should, with unconditional love and longsuffering, continue on with these family members.

  38. 38 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    In the LDS…

    1) A marriage, when sealed by the power of God, is eternal. The man and woman are inseparably connected (except by the power of God). Such a union is required if a person is to enter the highest rewards and live like God.
    A man who marries two women by the power of God is joined to both throughout eternity, but such a plurality in marriage is not required for exaltation. Such relationships are only to be entered into when the Lord gives direct permission or commandment.

    2) Originally it was not be practiced. Later the practice was introduced to the leaders, but the general membership were still prohibited. Once they came to Salt Lake it was instituted as a general practice that any worthy man and women could enter into such a relationship. It was expected of the men to take as many wives as they could personally provide for, though refusal to do so was never really punished in any way.

    3) See number one.

    4) God has withdrawn his permission to enter into such relationships, and so to do so is to violate his law.

    5) Those who were of the descent of Cain through Ham were partakes of the curse of Cain. It is important to note that the curse was on Cain, not on his descendant. Cain’s curse, as Wilford Woodruff states in his journals, was that his posterity would be the last to receive the blessings of the gospel, because he killed Abel before Abel had children. However, the time would come eventually when the gospel would go to them.

    6) The children of Cain were prohibited from holding the Priesthood and (if I understand correctly) attending the temple. They could still be baptized, but could not receive any other ordinance.

    7) See Number 5 above.

    8) The time has come (and gone) for the restrictions to be lifted, for the curse has been fulfilled. The descendants of Cain and now able to participate fully in the Gospel (and thus are able to do the work for their ancestors who were previously denied such).

    9-12) I really don’t understand why this is being brought up, as I have never heard of any change, even in policy as regards excommunication.

  39. 39 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Not at all contradictory Ralph. The time had not yet come.

  40. 40 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    But for you to use this to support doctrine that now contradicts what was written is a whole other matter.

  41. 41 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    I said: “Don’t sell yourself short. Some of the conversations are confusing because folks are talking about different things specifically.”

    This was written for Kent

  42. 42 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:07 pm

    The Lord does reveal his secrets to us through his servants the prophets. The prohets in the Bible! The LDS rejects them in favor of false prophets.

  43. 43 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    Ralph

    The reason Echo can claim there was no change is because the word plan and policy have the same basic meaning for him. If God planned to do something in the future than it is policy now as well as when the plan is actually put into effect.
    As such, when Christ made his statements it changed nothing, as the plan was already in existence, so even if they weren’t currently following that plan it was still the policy of the church.

  44. 44 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    What the LDS Church needs to do is take a clear stand against the rest of Christianity. To claim to be Christian without that clear stand against us at the same time, has the LDS siding with the devil who’s doctrine they claim we are believing. Not a loving thing to do.

  45. 45 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    God knows those who are willing to only listen to him. More than any “Church”.

  46. 46 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    Paula, welcome!

  47. 47 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    Good point Mark

  48. 48 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    If you are going to accept this than you have to accept that nothing that is not recorded in the Bible was influenced by God.
    I guess that is why Revelation is so vague. It lets God off the hook for giving new revelation, as hey, if you really try you can see just about everything being mentioned in here.

    Now, just to set the record strait, we reject no prophet (who is a prophet) and seek out all the writings of inspired men (including those mentioned in the Bible that we don’t actually have). We just don’t put a time frame as to when men can be inspired.

    Martha is right; God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So, if he spoke to prophets yesterday he will speak to them today and forever. If he called new prophets yesterday he will call new prophets today and forever.

  49. 50 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    Great scriptures

  50. 51 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    Welcome Todd

  51. 52 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    The problem is that you introduce off topic comments

  52. 53 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    The LDS has doctrine in one point in time that contradicts itself in another point in time.

  53. 54 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    We don’t need new Revelation. Everything has now been revealed in Jesus

  54. 55 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:18 pm

    Shem said: “Now, just to set the record strait, we reject no prophet (who is a prophet) and seek out all the writings of inspired men (including those mentioned in the Bible that we don’t actually have). We just don’t put a time frame as to when men can be inspired.”

    The LDS believes the living prophet is more vital than dead prophets.

  55. 56 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:18 pm

    Christians believe the LDS prophet is a false prophet.

  56. 57 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    God called new prophets in ages past, in ages present he has called Jesus our prophet. Why do we need men to be prophets when we have Jesus, who is God, as our prophet. Men die, Jesus lives forever!

  57. 58 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    As you LDS people say, The OT things were a shadow of what was to come. In the same way, OT prophets were a shadow of JESUS. Jesus has come.

  58. 59 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:27 pm

    Shem said: “1) A marriage, when sealed by the power of God, is eternal. The man and woman are inseparably connected (except by the power of God). Such a union is required if a person is to enter the highest rewards and live like God.”

    Jesus wasn’t married. That means then that he didn’t meet the requirements. Does that then mean that Jesus did not recieve ” the highest rewards and live like God”?

  59. 60 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:29 pm

    Shem said: “A man who marries two women by the power of God is joined to both throughout eternity, but such a plurality in marriage is not required for exaltation. Such relationships are only to be entered into when the Lord gives direct permission or commandment.”

    If your wife dies and you marry another in the temple, will you have two wives for all eternity?

  60. 61 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    Prove he wasn’t married.

  61. 62 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    So, I take it the Great Depression was revealed in Jesus; or the two world wars. What about the founding of the United States, or the great Civil War it went through.

    On the other hand, Amos tells us that God will do nothing without first revealing it. So, if you are going to accept what Amos said you either have to show where these events are foretold, or accept that God was somehow absent during them.

  62. 63 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    Shem said: ” I really don’t understand why this is being brought up, as I have never heard of any change, even in policy as regards excommunication.”

    So the current policy is to tell people they don’t exist when they choose to leave the church?

  63. 64 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Shem said: “Prove he wasn’t married.”

    No, no. No way. You prove he was married.

    Speculation is the devil’s doctrine.

  64. 65 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    Shem said: “So, I take it the Great Depression was revealed in Jesus; or the two world wars. What about the founding of the United States, or the great Civil War it went through.”

    If you have faith in Jesus, you need not know these details. We walk by faith and not by sight.

  65. 66 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Shem said: “On the other hand, Amos tells us that God will do nothing without first revealing it. So, if you are going to accept what Amos said you either have to show where these events are foretold, or accept that God was somehow absent during them.”

    If you are going to read the Bible, you have to take the Bible as a whole and not pick and choose scriptures to suit you.

  66. 67 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Echo said, “So the current policy is to tell people they don’t exist when they choose to leave the church?”

    No, that isn’t current policy. It has NEVER been policy.

    So far, it is simply anecdotal gibberish.

  67. 68 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:46 pm

    ECHO

    The living prophet is more vital because he is with us and able to guide us more directly through modern trials. Just as Noah was more vital to the people of that time than the dead Adam; or how Joseph was more vital to the people of his time than Noah was; or how Elijah was more vital to his people than Moses was.

    The plans of the arc were revealed to Moses because he had the need for them. The Arc of the Covenant was revealed to Moses because he had a need for it. Today the things that we have a need for are revealed to the modern prophet.

    We do not reject the words of the ancient prophets, but we understand that much of it is not for us, and thus not vital to our situation. Even many of the prophecies are not vital, for they were prophesying things that are already past.
    I love Isaiah, but the symbolism he uses was used for the understanding of the Jewish culture of his day, and as such much of it becomes very difficult for me to grasp. However, the words of modern prophets are spoken in symbolism that is familiar to me and thus easier for me to grasp. As such their words, being more clear to my mind, are more vital than those that I cannot understand.

    See how this is? Our current teachers are much more vital to us than our past teachers, but they are all still teachers (prophets).

  68. 69 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Here Echo, let me correct that for you.

    “The LDS has policy (not doctrine) in one point in time that is changed at another point in time.”

    Or,

    “The anti-Mormon contrived LDS doctrine in one point in time that contradicts the anti-Mormon contrived LDS doctrine in another point in time.”

    Take you pick.

  69. 70 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    Thanks for admitting that you have changed the doctrine found in the Bible.

  70. 71 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 8:54 pm

    Here is the doctrine found in the OT,

    Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Here is Jesus reaffirming this doctrine in the NT.

    Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I WILL SEND them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

  71. 72 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 8:56 pm

    My point is not that we need to know them, but that Amos tells us that God did absolutely nothing in regards to them unless a reference to such can be found in the Bible (according to you).

    I agree that everything we need to be saved is revealed in Christ, but this is not what you said, nor is it what Amos is talking about. He is not talking about our salvation, but about the works of God; all his works.

    What you have basically said is that because we have Jesus to reveal the way to salvation we no longer need prophets to reveal the workings of God on Earth. It is quite simply ridiculous.

  72. 73 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    Ralph said: ” So, JESUS changed the policy away from God’s plan? ”

    No

    Ralph said: “So, you are claiming that it doesn’t matter that Jesus changed the policy here?”

    Jesus didn’t change the policy.

    Ralph said:

    **********
    “Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    And then it was changed back (to the surprise of all) in Acts 10.

    Sorry, but that is STILL a change of policy.

    You, driven by your anti-Mormonism, have thrown Jesus under the bus.

    Just accept the fact that policy can and does change in the true Church of JESUS CHRIST.”

    **********

    Where is the change in policy?

  73. 74 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    ECHO

    The simple fact that you cannot prove he wasn’t married negates your comment, so I don’t have to prove he was.
    You point in bringing up Christ being married was to show how our doctrine is false. The only way that works is if you can prove he wasn’t married. I don’t have to prove he was, only that he could have been, and our doctrine is still sound. As there is no proof he wasn’t, then we have proven he could have been, and thus your attempt to discredit LDS doctrine fails.

    As to the anecdote given in the original article, that is all it is (as Ralph has pointed out). Did the Bishop actually say this, or did the women simple take his words to mean this.
    In reality, what a bishop says is not a reflection of church policy, so the whole story is void to the point anyway.

  74. 75 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 9:37 pm

    You have yet to prove it, Echo, so why don’t you stop trying, as it is a false accusation.

  75. 76 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 9:44 pm

    Shem said, “The reason Echo can claim there was no change is because the word plan and policy have the same basic meaning for him. If God planned to do something in the future than it is policy now as well as when the plan is actually put into effect.
    As such, when Christ made his statements it changed nothing, as the plan was already in existence, so even if they weren’t currently following that plan it was still the policy of the church.”

    Then I don’t see what his problem is. By his definition then there is NEVER a change in plan/policy in the true Church because “God planned it that way from the beginning”.

    Therefore, there has NEVER been a change in policy/plan in the LDS Church, BECAUSE “God planned it that way from the beginning”.

    Either way, using HIS logic, there is NO PROBLEM with the Church of JESUS CHRIST, ever, regardless of any changes made.

  76. 77 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    Echo,
    How did Jesus stay with two (single?) women (Mary and Martha, see Luke 10:38-42) that He loved (see John 11:5) and not get accused of adultery by the scribes and Pharisees, who NEVER missed an opportunity to make accusations of wrong doing?

  77. 78 Echo
    July 11, 2011 at 9:55 pm

    Shem said: “What you have basically said is that because we have Jesus to reveal the way to salvation we no longer need prophets to reveal the workings of God on Earth. It is quite simply ridiculous.”

    Amos 3:7 says: “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

    The CONTEXT reveals that what is being spoken about here is the disaster that is to come on the ISREALITES as a direct result of their covenant unfaithfulness… Verse 3:2 “Therefore I will punish you for all your sins”

    It was revealed to the prophets that disaster would overtake the Isrealites because of their covenant unfaithfulness.

    Do we need new revelation today to warn us of the disaster that will take over us? NO. All the warnings are already contained in the scriptures.

  78. 79 shematwater
    July 11, 2011 at 10:08 pm

    Exactly. But, since he doesn’t believe the LDS church to be the church of Christ he won’t apply the same logic to it.

    As such we are guilty of changing things all the time, but they never can be.

  79. 80 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 10:21 pm

    Echo said, “All the warnings are already contained in the scriptures.”

    Prove it. Chapter and verse please.

  80. 81 Ralph Peterson
    July 11, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    Ah, yes, the standard anti-Mormon DOUBLE STANDARD!

    Or, “what is good for me, is bad for thee” approach.

    And this is supposed to be convincing?

  81. 82 Kent
    July 11, 2011 at 10:34 pm

    Shem said, “prove he wasn’t married” Well if He (Jesus) was married the Bible, the final authority we need in all things spiritutal, would say He was married.

    Isn’t it true that if someone drinks alchoholic beverages they are considered to be not temple worthy?

    If that is the case, then Jesus Himself, even though he didn’t get drunk, would not be worthy as He did drink wine.

    Matthew 11:19

    19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Do you know who could not, according to Mormons, be in the highest level of exaltation? the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation because they are virgins so they couldn’t be sealed in a temple marriage but they have something better and that is the seal of God Himself and if anyone among mortal human beings would be in a highest level of exaltation it would be them.

    Revelation 7:1-8

    1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2And I SAW ANOTHER ANGEL ASCENDING FROM THE EAST, HAVING THE SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SERVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.
    4AND I HEARD THE NUMBER OF THEM WHICH WERE SEALED: AND THERE WERE SEALED AN HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND OF ALL THE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.
    5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

    Revelation 14:1-5

    1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him AN HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, HAVING HIS FATHER’S NAME WRITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS.
    2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4These ARE THEY WHICH WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. THESE ARE THEY WHICH FOLLOW THE LAMB WHITHERSOEVER HE GOETH. THESE WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD AND TO THE LAMB.
    5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    Do you know who else who very likely was not married and who, if so, couldn’t be in the highest level of exaltation? The apostle Paul who wrote a lot of the New Testament.

  82. 83 Kent
    July 11, 2011 at 10:55 pm

    I had a Mormon missionary tell me that he would take the word of a living prophet over scripture any day.

    To me that is absurd as no living human being trumps the word of God.

  83. 84 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:12 am

    Ralph said: “Sorry, but Ruth was not sought out for conversion to the Israelite faith. You “claim” there are more, but you haven’t (can’t) provide them.”

    I have provided some of them for you.

  84. 85 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:18 am

    ECHO

    Shem said: “I know all about God’s plan. The fact remains that before Peter was given this vision God had not yet initiated that plan, and thus by initiating it he changed the way the church worked, and thus changed policy. By your reasoning the change in requiring circumcision (which you admit was a change in policy) was not a change at all, for God planned on it happening.
    (Or you can take the stand that he didn’t plan on it, and thus have him changing with the times.)”

    The REAL issue here is not whether God changes from circumcision(OT) to Baptism (NT). The REAL issue is that the LDS uses the account of God bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles to support the idea that God says one thing in one generation that contradicts something he says in another generation. The point we are making is that God’s plan to bring the gospel to the gentiles does not contradict a teaching held in the past by God.

  85. 86 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:23 am

    Shem said: “As such we are guilty of changing things all the time, but they never can be.”

    Our doctrine is all based on the Bible. The LDS doctrine is based on things outside of the Bible.

  86. 87 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:27 am

    Shem said: “Of course you can also mention the policy of circumcision”

    Circumcision was a doctrine that led to the policy of circumsizing.

  87. 88 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:41 am

    Shem said: “The simple fact that you cannot prove he wasn’t married negates your comment, so I don’t have to prove he was.”

    When you claim that a person must be married in order to “enter the highest rewards and live like God.”
    then the burden of proof that Jesus was married lays with you, not me. If I believed that Jesus had to be married in order to fulfill some higher purpose then the burden of proof would lay with me. But it is YOU who believes Jesus had to be married, not me. So prove it scripturally and stop avoiding giving an answer.

    Shem said: “You point in bringing up Christ being married was to show how our doctrine is false. The only way that works is if you can prove he wasn’t married. I don’t have to prove he was, only that he could have been, and our doctrine is still sound. ”

    Sorry but “could have been” doesn’t fly with those who believe “every word that comes from the mouth of God” and who know better than to put word’s in God’s mouth that he didn’t say. As I stated, speculation is the doctrine of the devil.

    Shem said: “As there is no proof he wasn’t, then we have proven he could have been, and thus your attempt to discredit LDS doctrine fails.”

    Instead of trying to get yourself out of a corner that you have painted yourself into, give us biblical proof that Jesus was married.

  88. 89 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:52 am

    Ralph said: “How did Jesus stay with two (single?) women (Mary and Martha, see Luke 10:38-42) that He loved (see John 11:5) and not get accused of adultery by the scribes and Pharisees, who NEVER missed an opportunity to make accusations of wrong doing?”

    So is it a sin to have someone come into your home to teach the word (verse 39)?
    What possible statement in scripture would give the pharisees and scribes the opportunity to accuse Jesus of adultery?

  89. 90 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 2:54 am

    Answer the question Shem. Show me sciptural evidence that Jesus was married. Why won’t you answer? Has LDS doctrine painted you into a corner?

  90. 91 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:09 am

    Ralph said: “Prove it. Chapter and verse please.”

    Certainly, here are a few off the top of my head…

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ”

    Galatians 5:19-21 “19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Ephesians 5:3-7 ” 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. ”

    Revelation 21:8 “8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ”

    2 Peter 2:21-22 “21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Romans 2:5 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”

    Hebrews 2:2-3 “For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?”

    Hebrews 10:26-27 “26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. ”

    1 John 3:6 “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

  91. 92 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:13 am

    Ralph said: “Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I WILL SEND them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:”

    What is a prophet? A person who brings you God’s word. When I bring you God’s word in response to your sins and you refuse to listen to me, are you not slaying and persecuting those whom God has sent? We believe you are. When I bring you God’s word and you refuse to believe it, are you not slaying those sent to you? We believe you are. When you hurl insults at us and put words in our mouths that we did not say and generally act in an unrespectful way towards us, are you not persecuting those whom God has sent? We believe you are.

  92. 93 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:17 am

    Shem said: “The living prophet is more vital because he is with us and able to guide us more directly through modern trials.”

    Nothing is happening today that hasn’t already happened in the past. Ecclesiastes 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.”

    I believe your current teachers are false teachers and your current prophet is a false prophet.

  93. 94 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:18 am

    On Mark’s next thread, can we all please try to stick to the topic of the thread?

  94. 95 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:23 am

    Is this ability to respond to people mid thread working for all of you? I wonder if having to re-read the whole entire thread to catch new responses in the thread over the “5 most recent comments” limit is perhaps not the best way to use this blog. What do you all think?

  95. 96 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:28 am

    I am asking because I think I may have just posted more than the limit of “5 most recent comments”

  96. 97 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:36 am

    We have way too many topics going here all at once.

  97. 98 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 5:05 am

    Shem;

    You stated above: “Martha is right; God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So, if he spoke to prophets yesterday he will speak to them today and forever. If he called new prophets yesterday he will call new prophets today and forever.”

    I’m curious. How do you feel this assertion of yours squares with Hebrews 1:1-2?

    “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the universe.”

    Should I believe God’s word, or should I believe what you say?

  98. 99 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    Not true. The real preparation for the Second coming of Jesus is going on now, that hasn’t happened in the past.

  99. 100 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    It squares very well, thank you. There is NOTHING in Hebrews 1:1-2 (or any other scripture) that says or means that there will be no more prophets after Jesus. And in opposition to your position, there are several scriptures that clearly show that there were and are prophets AFTER Jesus.

    Acts 11:27 ¶ And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

    Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

    Acts 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

    1 Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    1 Cor. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

    Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

  100. 101 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    “Well if He (Jesus) was married the Bible, the final authority we need in all things spiritutal, would say He was married.”

    So then, “if He (Jesus)” wasn’t “married the Bible, the final authority we need in all things spiritual, would say He” wasn’t “married”.

    Well then, show where is says He wasn’t married.

  101. 102 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    So now you are equating being a “virgin” with being unmarried? Is that the best you can do?

  102. 103 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Well, you guys keep bringing up red herrings. What are we to do?

  103. 104 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    More would be nice.

  104. 105 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Yes! More would be nice.

  105. 106 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Could you guys refrain from presenting red herrings?

  106. 107 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    I heard an evangelical take “the word of God” over “the Word of God”.

    To me that is absurd as no “the word of God” trumps “the Word of God”.

  107. 108 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    From Thayer’s Lexicon,
    παρθένος parthenos
    1. a virgin: . . . either a marriageable maiden, or a young (married) woman, . . .
    2. a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity:

    Nothing in there about being unmarried.

  108. 109 Anne McKee
    July 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    IF the woman wanted to cut herself off from the LDS Church….then why is she offended that (supposedly) the Bishop told her she was cut off?

    Has anyone else noticed that Mark Cares just likes to “stir things up”? He counts on all this contention to further his case!

    What a waste of a ministry!

  109. 110 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Ralph said: “Not true. The real preparation for the Second coming of Jesus is going on now, that hasn’t happened in the past.”

    People, in the past, weren’t in the dark about the upcoming judgement.

  110. 111 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    “What a waste of a ministry!”

    That depends on how you look at it. He got to take a wonderful summer vacation traveling through the west all on the ministry’s dime.

  111. 112 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    I just went back and read Mark’s initial post. While it describes an incident a woman experienced when leaving the mormon faith, it doesn’t say any where that she was offended. Your question is baseless.

    Mark Cares likes to “stir thing up”? So when mormon’s defend their faith, it’s called apologetics – when Mark Cares defends his faith, it’s called “stirriing things up.”

    So what, exactly have your comments added here? Good grief, Anne. Could you at least try to be a little more fair minded and civil?

    A waste of a ministry? Hardly. It has given many an opportunity to see how Mormons and Christian (yes Ralph, Mormons and Christians) express their respective faiths, and how they each respond to challenges to those faiths. Dialog is not a waste.

  112. 113 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    “It has given many an opportunity to see how Mormon Christians and evangelical anti-Mormon Christians (yes Ralph, Mormon Christians and evangelical anti-Mormon Christians) express their respective faiths, . . . ”

    There, fixed it for you.

  113. 114 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    So?

    The real preparation is going on right now. It wasn’t going on back then.

  114. 115 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    Journal of Discourses Vol. 2, page 210 states that Jesus was married to Mary and Martha and Jesus got married in Cana . If that were true, why was Jesus INVITED to his own wedding? (John 2:1,2)

  115. 116 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    Comments like this are unbecoming of your faith, as they would be unbecoming of anyone’s faith.

  116. 117 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    And here are the testimonies of some Mormon scholars.

    http://mormonscholarstestify.org/

  117. 118 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Well Ralph, at least you’re back on the topic of this thread . . .

  118. 119 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    And here are some testimonies of some more wonderful Mormons.

    http://www.blacklds.org/testimonies

  119. 120 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    Here is a non-anecdotal testimony from that last site I cited.

    Renee Olson

    “I started out an anti Mormon certified in Mormonism by the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention. Through lots of love, patience, understanding and non-judgmental friends I came to see the real “truth” behind the LDS Church. I realized I had been brainwashed before and started doing my own thinking. The “truth” is that I have found more tolerance, acceptance and genuine Christ-like love among the Latter-day Saints than any other body of believers. Through the LDS Church I’ve come to know and understand what it means to have a personal relationship with my Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.”

  120. 121 Anne McKee
    July 12, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    Mark readily admits that his post is “contentious”. I think it is a waste to bring up contention! If dialog is the purpose, then why doesn’t Mark just ask a simple question or simply state a tenet of his faith? Because he KNOWS the controversial topics will stir things up! If the Mormons do not leave comments on this blog, then this blog will curl up and die! So, by inciting the Mormons, he assures the future of his blog and his ministry….that is as long as LDS people will engage in the fight.

    I would never dream of telling any evangelical that they are not Christian…. yet Mark (and others) will tell ME that I am not a Christian because I am LDS. I think that is the pinnacle of rudeness…hence my comment that this ministry is a waste! Christians serve their neighbors, they do not cause contention.

    A Christian is a follower of Christ. period. I have heard of Christians shopping around for a church that suits their particular taste. The mode of baptism differs in different Christian churches (if they believe in baptism at all) , or the services vary widely, yet they can all be grouped under the “Christian” banner. The Christian “brand” is not pure.
    Yet, because of anti-Mormon bias, Christians on this blog and elsewhere want to say that LDS are not Christian. That is contentious, not civil.

    I very rarely see any one on this blog explore our common faith. I am grateful for MY Christian friends who have high standards and i know that if I mention prayer or faith, they will understand. I wish the people on this blog would extend that same courtesy. For example: I would NEVER hesitate to vote for a Christian like Sarah Palin (to me her Christian faith is a resume enhancer)……but I know darn good and well that the people contributing to this blog would NEVER vote for MItt Romney!!!!!!!
    Now, who is fair minded?

  121. 122 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    This is laughable Ralph. Is that the best you can do? It’s not even worth responding to because of the point it makes.

  122. 123 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    Any evangelicals who take “the word of God” over “the Word of God” are in error. I would agree with you on this one.

  123. 124 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    You and Shem are just as guilty as any of us Ralph. It is easy for all of us to get side-tracked.

  124. 125 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Anne said: “Has anyone else noticed that Mark Cares just likes to “stir things up”? He counts on all this contention to further his case! What a waste of a ministry!”

    It’s only wasted on those who don’t take the time to examine both sides…

    “Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance”~Albert Einstein

  125. 126 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Anne said: “Mark readily admits that his post is “contentious”.”

    Not so. Go back and read the first sentence of Mark’s post. It is not Mark’s post that is contentious, it is “the Mormon claim” of being Christian that is the source of contention.

    Anne said: “If the Mormons do not leave comments on this blog, then this blog will curl up and die!”

    If this is true, then thank-you for helping to keep this ministry alive with your comments.

    Anne said: “I would never hesitate to vote for a Christian like Palin, but I know people contributing to this blog would never vote for Romney”

    You don’t speak for everyone on this blog. Personally, I may very well vote for Romney if no one better surfaces (though it is still too early to say), yet under no circumstances would I ever vote for Palin.

  126. 127 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    Anne said: “Yet, because of anti-Mormon bias, Christians on this blog and elsewhere want to say that LDS are not Christian. That is contentious, not civil.”

    Christians and Mormons follow two very different Christ’s. Only ONE of them is the true Christ therefore only one of them saves us all.

    False Christs are useless and worthless when it comes to your salvation and mine. Those who have faith in a false Christ do not have faith in the one true Christ. “It is through faith that we are saved” (Ephesians 2:8) ” Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6)

    For us to want to save Mormons from an eternity in Hell is not at all contentious. It’s the most loving thing we could possibly do for you!

    If I was your doctor and you had terminal cancer and I had the cure, the most loving thing I could do for you is to tell you that you have terminal cancer (which is something you wouldn’t want to hear) but that I have the cure!

    The fact that you have terminal cancer and don’t want to hear that news doesn’t mean my telling you that is being contentious. I am telling you because I have the cure!

    Don’t be so quick to condemn us…

    “Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance”~Albert Einstein

  127. 128 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    Anne said: “Anne said: “I would never hesitate to vote for a Christian like Palin, but I know people contributing to this blog would never vote for Romney…but I know darn good and well that the people contributing to this blog would NEVER vote for MItt Romney!!!!!!! Now, who is fair minded?”

    I would vote for Romney over Palin. Though I am not an American.

  128. 129 RLO
    July 12, 2011 at 6:06 pm

    Anne;

    You have suggested above that Mark incites Mormons for the purpose of assuring the future of his blog and his ministry. From clicking on “about” at the top of this page, here is how Mark describes the purpose of his ministry and this blog:

    “My name is Mark Cares and I am a pastor in Idaho. For the past 25 years, I have shared the true Gospel of Jesus Christ with people throughout my community. Almost fifteen years ago, I began a project of researching and studying Mormonism for the purpose of knowing how to effective share the gosple with them. The end result is a book entitled, “Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons.” Almost 15,000 copies have been sold. From the feedback I have received, many people and ministries are utilizing the approach and techniques that I share in my book. Now, I am excited to enter the blog world for the purpose of teaching, equipping and encouraging Christians on how to effectively witness to their Mormon friends, neighbors, co-workers and family members. A few years ago, I started a new ministry outreach called Truth in Love Ministry. If you would like more information, please visit the website, http://www.truthinloveministry.net.”

    From this description, it is evident the purpose of Mark’s ministry and this blog is to teach, equip, and encourage Christians in their witness. There is not even any mention of debating with Mormons on this blog, much less inciting them. That said, I’m sure your comments are always welcome here. And though fervent discussions are bound to occur, they are certainly not the life-blood of Mark’s ministry and his blog.

    I look forward to your continuing participation on this blog, and I hope we can all encourage ourselves to do so in a civil and respectful manner.

    RLO

  129. 130 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    Ralph said: “It squares very well, thank you. There is NOTHING in Hebrews 1:1-2 (or any other scripture) that says or means that there will be no more prophets after Jesus. And in opposition to your position, there are several scriptures that clearly show that there were and are prophets AFTER Jesus.”

    The prophets in the OT prophesied of the grace that should come unto the people in the NT…

    1 Peter 1:10-11 “Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

    Has Christ suffered and revealed his glory and grace so that prophecy of his glory and grace that was to come is no longer necessary? YES he has.

    Since Grace has come unto us, there is no more need of prophecy in the sense of fortelling of Christ’s grace to come. Grace is here! Grace has come!

    However a Prophet in the NT sense still tells of Christ’s grace and that grace is now found in the written word of God in the Bible.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 “In THE PAST God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but IN THESE LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the universe.”

    All the Prophets of the OT died, Christ is our present day prophet and Christ is still alive!

    Monson or Jesus….the choice is clear!

  130. 131 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    “Evangelical anti-Mormon “Christians” and Mormon Christians follow two very different Christ’s.”

    Fixed part of that. Since LDS Christians believe in the Christ of the Bible, then if there are two different Christs, that is a problem for you not us.

    “Only ONE of them is the true Christ therefore only one of them saves us all.”

    Since LDS Christians believe in the Christ of the Bible, then if there are two different Christs, that is a problem for you not us.

  131. 132 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    Echo said, “Since Grace has come unto us, there is no more need of prophecy in the sense of fortelling of Christ’s grace to come.”

    As if that is the only function of a prophet. It is rather clear that Echo doesn’t have a clue what prophets really do. Since he doesn’t understand what the function of a prophet, it is understandable that he also doesn’t understand the need for them now.

  132. 133 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    Ralph said: “Since LDS Christians believe in the Christ of the Bible, then if there are two different Christs, that is a problem for you not us.”

    It’s not a problem for us but we will let the readers judge for themselves.

    Acts 17:11 “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul (Ralph, Shem, Mark, Echo, RLO, Kent etc.) said was true.”

    I am absolutely confident in the power of God’s word to speak directly to the people to help them make up their minds.

  133. 134 Echo
    July 12, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Ralph said: “As if that is the only function of a prophet. It is rather clear that Echo doesn’t have a clue what prophets really do. Since he doesn’t understand what the function of a prophet, it is understandable that he also doesn’t understand the need for them now”

    What are the other functions of a prophet?

  134. 135 Ralph Peterson
    July 12, 2011 at 9:18 pm

    Echo said, “It’s not a problem for us but we will let the readers judge for themselves.”

    Nice of you to admit it.

  135. 136 Anne McKee
    July 13, 2011 at 12:57 am

    Mark IS careful not to “debate”. He introduces a controversial topic and lets the rest of you debate it.

    I don’t have a beef with ANY of you. I just wish you would let the LDS people DEFINE themselves! We let you define yourself! Don’t tell me that I worship a “different” Savior. That is demeaning, insulting and provocative.

    Disagree with our doctrine, but don’t tell us what WE believe!

    Do you know Mark Cares personally? He maybe isn’t all he pretends to be!

    later,
    Anne

  136. July 13, 2011 at 1:06 am

    My thoughts exactly!

    And….Mark, it really is a waste. Your ministry has dwindled by a few based on the e-mails I have received thanking all of us LDS here who are stating truth in spite of the falsehoods you post, for helping them to see clearly. Keep up the good work guys!

  137. July 13, 2011 at 1:10 am

    I meant to quote Anne and Ralph…my reply is to their comment.

  138. 139 RLO
    July 13, 2011 at 1:16 am

    Anne;

    Yes, I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and spending a few hours with Mark Cares about three years ago. We occasionally email each other from time to time, as we live in different states, I in California, and he in Idaho (where I once lived for two years). I took the time to read his book, “Speaking The Truth In Love To Mormons” about 12 years ago, and occasionally refer back to it. He is a pastor of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), a synod of about 1300 pastors. As a small synod, I’ve had the occasion to meet and speak with perhaps two or three dozen pastors at conferences, seminars, and WELS churches I’ve attended throughout a number of states. My impression of Mark is that he doesn’t “pretend” to be anything. He is a genuine and sincere individual. If there is anything else you would like to know, please don’t hesitate to ask.

    RLO

  139. July 13, 2011 at 1:19 am

    Echo,

    I would like to understand what you believe differently than we do about Jesus Christ. Let’s begin with your belief about why Jesus was resurrected.

  140. 141 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 1:56 am

    Anne said: ” Don’t tell me that I worship a “different” Savior. That is demeaning, insulting and provocative.”

    God wants us to speak the TRUTH in love. The truth is that Mormons worship a different Jesus. I don’t say that to demean you, insult you or to be provocative. I say that because you need to know the truth so that you can avoid spending an eternity in Hell. The eternal welfare of your soul is at stake here and I indeed care about your eternal welfare. Where you spend eternity is important to me. I would like to see you share eternal life in heaven with me and all other true believers. I do not want to see you end up spending eternity in Hell.

    If a person does not have faith in the ONE true Jesus, they will not be saved and will spend eternity in Hell. That’s the truth.

    Mormons and Christians each believe in a different Jesus. That’s the truth.

    God himself in the Bible warns against false Christ’s. That’s the truth.

    The Mormon Jesus is not the ONE true Jesus. That’s the truth.

    The Bible teaches that: “without faith it is impossible to please God” This means that it is impossible for anyone who has placed their faith in a false Christ rather than the one true Christ, to please God. Anyone who doesn’t please God spends eternity in Hell.

  141. July 13, 2011 at 2:40 am

    Echo: “God wants us to speak the TRUTH in love.”

    Yes, He does…and we are speaking the Truth to you.

    Echo: ” I say that because you need to know the truth so that you can avoid spending an eternity in Hell.”

    I believe that we are judged by the amount of light we have…therefore, I would never make a statement that if you don’t believe what I believe, you will spend eternity in hell. I believe God is much more merciful than that. I believe that you lack enough understanding, or have been “blinded by the craftiness of men”(D&C76:75), and therefore don’t truly realize what you are doing.

    Echo: “God himself in the Bible warns against false Christ’s. That’s the truth.”

    Yes, and sadly, you are teaching many false teachings in your ministry. However, as said above, you have been blinded, but I know that in time, you will realize and come to know the truth.

    Echo: “Anyone who doesn’t please God spends eternity in Hell.”

    I’m wondering, Echo, how does this reconcile with your belief in no works?

  142. 143 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 2:44 am

    Kate said: “I would like to understand what you believe differently than we do about Jesus Christ. Let’s begin with your belief about why Jesus was resurrected.”

    Because of the resurrection of Christ, we know Jesus is God…

    1 Peter 1:23 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

    Upon our death, the souls of those who believed in the one true Jesus immediately enter eternal life (the one and only kingdom of heaven) and the souls of those who didn’t believe in the one true Jesus immediately enter into Hell…..

    Luke 16:19-31 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

    All await the judgment.

    Just prior to the judgment, the body will be resurrected from the grave and be reunited with the spirit.

  143. 144 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 2:50 am

    Echo said: “Anyone who doesn’t please God spends eternity in Hell.”

    Kate responded: I’m wondering, Echo, how does this reconcile with your belief in no works?

    Faith alone in Jesus alone is what pleases God. Faith isn’t a work.

  144. 145 Kent
    July 13, 2011 at 3:26 am

    The Jesus of the Bible is not a created being but is instead God the creator who created everything in the universe and He is not the brother of someone who has been a murderer from the beginning and who is the father of all lies, so Jesus is not Satan’s brother. The Jesus of the Mormon Church is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible.

    John 1:1-3

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2The same was in the beginning with God.
    3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 8:44

    44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. WHEN HE SPEAKETH A LIE, HE SPEAKETH OF HIS OWN: FOR HE IS A LIAR, AND THE FATHER OF IT.

  145. 146 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 3:28 am

    Kate said: “I believe that we are judged by the amount of light we have…therefore, I would never make a statement that if you don’t believe what I believe, you will spend eternity in hell. I believe God is much more merciful than that. I believe that you lack enough understanding, or have been “blinded by the craftiness of men”(D&C76:75), and therefore don’t truly realize what you are doing.”

    When someone knows the truth that they can potentially be “blinded by the craftiness of men” they already know enough truth or have enough light to be held accountable by God and sent to Hell for refusing to examine very carefully the teachings of their own church in the event it is a church with false teachings. But also for refusing to examine what others teach whom are not of their church body.

    For example, if a Mormon knows that people can be “blinded by the craftiness of men” they will indeed go to Hell for refusing to carefully examine not only what the Mormon Church itself teaches in case the Mormon Church is truly guilty of blinding men by their craftiness with its false teachings. But also this Mormon will be held accountable by God and sent to Hell for refusing to examine what anyone else who is not Mormon teaches them in case what those people are teaching is actually true.

    In the judgment, God might say something like this to that Mormon: “I sent Mark or RLO or Echo etc. to you, but you refused to listen to them and to examine what they say by comparing what they say with what my word says. Your blindness is your own fault for you KNEW that people could be blinded by the craftiness of men but you refused to find out whether or not you were blinded by the craftiness of men.”

  146. 147 jbr
    July 13, 2011 at 4:02 am

    Echo….
    Don’t you think that if Jesus was married, that the LDS would have pictures \ paintings or commercials showing him with his wives?

    The fact they do not have Jesus pictured married with wives is proof enough.

  147. 148 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 4:35 am

    Great point jbr.

  148. July 13, 2011 at 5:04 am

    Echo: “In the judgment, God might say something like this to that Mormon: “I sent Mark or RLO or Echo etc. to you, but you refused to listen to them and to examine what they say by comparing what they say with what my word says. Your blindness is your own fault for you KNEW that people could be blinded by the craftiness of men but you refused to find out whether or not you were blinded by the craftiness of men.””

    Yes, that would be true if what you taught was true and I did not find out for myself that what you taught wasn’t true. I have done much research, study, and praying. I know without a doubt what you are teaching is false. I know without a doubt that what I believe is true…by the Holy Ghost which Jesus gave to testify of Him and of all truth.

    And, I am appalled that you feel you can judge others as boldly as you do. You cannot see inside someone’s heart. You have no clue as to what the Lord knows and sees in a person’s heart. I may be judged more harshly than you, because I have been given much…so I will not stand in judgement of you or anyone else.

  149. 150 RLO
    July 13, 2011 at 5:10 am

    I’m sorry Kate, but I really don’t think Echo is judging you any bolder or any harsher than you are judging Echo.

  150. 151 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 5:30 am

    Kate said: “Yes, that would be true if what you taught was true and I did not find out for myself that what you taught wasn’t true. I have done much research, study, and praying. I know without a doubt what you are teaching is false. I know without a doubt that what I believe is true…by the Holy Ghost which Jesus gave to testify of Him and of all truth.”

    I’ve done much studying, researching, praying. I know without a doubt that what Mormonism teaches is false. I know without a doubt that what I believe is true…by comparing what I believe with what God himself testifies to in the scripture and by trusting in God’s word rather than my feelings which have the potential to misguide me.

    That’s exactly what the Bereans did, they searched the scriptures to see what was true, they didn’t depend on feelings, and they didn’t depend on anything outside of that written word in the scriptures…..

    Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

    The Bible **IS** the Holy Spirit’s word and that word itself testifies to the truth. Whenever anyone contradicts that word, whenever my feelings contradict that word….my feelings are trashed in favor of what the Holy Spirit testifies to in scripture.

    So how can we both believe that the other one is wrong and not have any doubt about that? Obviously one of us is wrong. Obviously one of us has been blinded by the craftiness of men.

    I have a question for you Kate. What do I teach, what do I believe?

  151. 152 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    Echo said, “The truth is that Mormons worship a different Jesus.”

    Well, LDS Christians worship the Jesus of the Bible, so I don’t know which Jesus Echo worships.

  152. 153 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Here Echo, let me fix that for you.

    “For example, if a Evangelical anti-Mormon knows that people can be “blinded by the craftiness of men” they will indeed go to Hell for refusing to carefully examine not only what the Evangelical anti-Mormon Church itself teaches in case the Evangelical anti-Mormon Church is truly guilty of blinding men by their craftiness with its false teachings. But also this Evangelical anti-Mormon will be held accountable by God and sent to Hell for refusing to examine what anyone else who is not Evangelical anti-Mormon teaches them in case what those people are teaching is actually true.”

    You are welcome!

  153. 154 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    “Don’t you think that if Peter or James or John or other Apostle was married, that the LDS would have pictures \ paintings or commercials showing them with their wives?

    The fact they do not have Peter or James or John or other Apostle pictured married with wives is proof enough.”

    The quality of anti-Mormon logic found here is amazing to behold.

  154. 155 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Echo said, “I know without a doubt that what Mormonism teaches is false.”

    So you don’t believe that Christ was resurrected? You don’t believe that He is a divine being? You don’t believe that He suffered for our sins? You don’t believe that He is the only way to the Father?

    Echo said, “I know without a doubt that what I believe is true…by comparing what I believe with what God himself testifies to in the scripture and by trusting in God’s word rather than my feelings which have the potential to misguide me.”

    What about your rejection of Jesus teachings here?
    Matt. 19:17 . . . : but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So what you are doing is trusting in your fallible interpretation of “God’s word” while rejecting the clear and plain teachings of God’s Word.

  155. 156 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    Echo said, “I know without a doubt that what Mormonism teaches is false. I know without a doubt that what I believe is true…”

    Echo, in these threads you have rejected revelation from the Holy Spirit, logic and reason. So with that in mind, my question is HOW do you know anything?

  156. 157 Anne McKee
    July 13, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    ECHO,

    Please DO NOT TELL ME what I believe!! I believe in the one, the only Jesus Christ! I don’t tell you what YOU believe.

    Where is this other Jesus talked about? Who is he? Where did you come up with this “truth”?

    That alone tells me that you are teaching falsehoods!

    The one I love, the one I believe in is spoken of in the Holy Bible. (and in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and in The Pearl of Great Price)

    He is MY Jesus. Can’t you see how outlandish it is for YOU to tell ME what I BELIEVE????????????

    You are like a 1st grader trying to correct a PhD!! I KNOW what I believe. I KNOW the truth!

    this might have sounded a little snotty…….but, I am saying it with “LOVE”! think of it as “spiritual chemo-therapy”!

    ~Anne

  157. 158 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    Kate,

    Just as a small example, do you believe…

    1) “He that overcomes shall retain his name in the book of life, reach godhood, and be with Jesus as he is with the Father.” … (Heading for Revelation chapter three in the LDS edition of the Bible.)

    2) “As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” (LDS: The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles p. 59.)

    3) “Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.” (LDS: Achieving A Celestial Marriage p. 1.)

    4) “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea… God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.” ( Joseph Smith, quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 325.)

    5) “God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones.” (LDS: Gospel Principles, p.9.)

    6) “I do not believe in the doctrine held by some that God is only a Spirit and that he is of such a nature that he fills the immensity of space, and is everywhere present in person, or without person, for I can not conceive it possible that God could be a person, if he filled the immensity of space and was everywhere present at the same time. It is unreasonable, a physical, a theological inconsistency, to imagine that even God the eternal Father would be in two places, as an individual, at the same moment. It is impossible. But his power extends throughout the immensity of space. His power extends to all his creations, and his knowledge comprehends them all, and he governs them all and he knows all.” ( Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith p.337. Text named for Melchezidek Priesthood & Relief Society Sunday Meetings for 2001 year.)

    7) “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow – three in one, and one in three!… He would be a wonderfully big God – he would be a giant or a monster.” (Joseph Smith History of the Church of Latter-day Saints, volume 6 p. 476.)

    8) “Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.
    How are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one? To answer, use the example of a father, mother, and children working for the same purpose.” (LDS: Gospel Principles Chapter 7 The Holy Ghost, p. 37)

    9) “Perfection is a word that causes different reactions from many people. Some people say, “Perfection? Why that is impossible!” Others say, “Perfection? I get discouraged just thinking about it!” “Yet would the Lord give us a commandment that was impossible for us to keep? And when he gives a commandment, doesn’t he, as Nephi said, prepare a way for us to accomplish what he commands?” (LDS: Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 57.)

    10) “Progress towards eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.” (LDS: Past Living Prophet and President Spencer W. Kimball, quoted in Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 386.)

    11) ” Resurrection and Judgment Attend Second Coming — At his coming, the Lord will sit in judgment on all nations, dividing the sheep from the goats, sending some to everlasting punishment and others to life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-46) At his coming, also, those who have earned the right to come forth in the resurrection of the just will rise from their graves and inherit their places in a celestial or a terrestrial kingdom. (LDS D&C 88:95-99) (Past Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Mormon Doctrine, p. 697.)

    12) “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons[sic], of evolving into a god.” (LDS: Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith p.337)

    13) “God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!…it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

    14) We have a Father; He is in heaven; …He says that we are His children. … we actually believe that God the Father is our heavenly Father, that we are His children; and we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother—that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, pp. 235-256, February 20, 1870)

    15) Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors …. There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the elder brother of the rest of humankind…. Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness. (Improvement Era, vol. 19, pp. 941-942, June 30, 1916)

    16) We are here to be tested and tried. There is a war between Satan and God. We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. We are the children of God. God begot us in the spirit in the eternal worlds. This fight that I speak of arose, as we are told, over the question as to how man should work out his earthly probation in a tabernacle of flesh and bones and obtain redemption. Satan differed from God, and he rebelled. We are told in the scriptures that he drew after him one third of the family of God. They thought his plan better than that of the Savior Jesus Christ. From that time until the present he has been struggling to destroy the plans of Jehovah, and to seduce the children of men—his brothers and sisters—from their allegiance to God. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23,)

    17) During his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood. At that time he was foreordained to be the Savior of this world. Father Abraham was privileged to see in vision the grand council in heaven that was held prior to the peopling of this earth, and he saw, as the Lord showed him, “many of the noble and great ones.” (LDS Conference Report, October 1949, p. 69)

    If you say “YES” to believing in these Mormons quotes, then you believe in an entirely different Jesus than Christians do.

    Even President Hinckley stated that Mormons believe in a different Jesus than Christians do…

    “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ. ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.’ ” (Talk in Geneva, Switzerland, June 6, 1998. The Deseret News reported…)

  158. 159 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 7:55 pm

    Echo said, “Even President Hinckley stated that Mormons believe in a different Jesus than Christians do…”

    Nothing like MISREPRESENTING what President Hinckley ACTUALLY said.

    ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. . . .”

    That statement is accurate because “the traditional Christ” is NOT the Biblical Christ. We LDS believe in the Biblical Jesus. It is true that what we know about Him is more than is found in the Bible, but that doesn’t change that it is the Biblical Jesus in whom we believe.

    Echo’s corrected statement, “If you say “YES” to believing in these Mormon Christian quotes, then you believe in an entirely different Jesus than we anti-Mormons ‘Christians’ do.”

  159. 160 shematwater
    July 13, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    It is fun how the topic of conversation changes so rapidly. I was gone for about two days and already this thread has gone wild. I love it.

    Anne: You are right. The only real reason to have started this thread is to instigate convention. I must confess that I actually enjoy it a little, and as long as it doesn’t get to bad I will continue to come back.

    RLO

    To return to a past comment; Hebrews 1: 1-2 does not teach that prophets are no longer needed. What it does teach is that the Jews at the time of Christ were a very blessed people for, while their ancestors had the prophets, they had the literal Son of God as their teacher. Beyond this it means absolutely nothing.

    KENT and JBR

    First, John tells us that the Bible contains only a small fractions of the what Christ actually did and taught while in his mortal life. Thus, to say that the Bible would mention his marriage has no real foundation in logic. Second, why would they put his family in that much danger. The Jews had already killed Christ and were hunting down his apostles. Since the Law of Moses put the authority over them in an inherited line do you think they would have hesitated to kill any wives he might have had? Do think about these things.

    Now, Ralph responded rather well to the comment about having pictures of wives. The idea is simply ridiculous.

    ECHO

    In post 34 you said “The REAL issue here is not whether God changes from circumcision(OT) to Baptism (NT). The REAL issue is that the LDS uses the account of God bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles to support the idea that God says one thing in one generation that contradicts something he says in another generation. The point we are making is that God’s plan to bring the gospel to the gentiles does not contradict a teaching held in the past by God.”

    I would like to point out that we have never claimed that taking the gospel to the gentiles contradicted anything taught in the past. This is just another example of you twisting out words and doctrine to fit your own desires against us.
    We maintain that there was a change in policy, but we have never claimed a change in doctrine or planning. This was all planned for from the beginning and was carried out beautifully. But it was still a change in policy. A change in policy does not necessarily contradict doctrine. Yet, for your accusation to hold up the two things have to be synonymous.

    Also, I believe in evey single point you mention (all 17), and it is because of the Bible that I know they are true, for the Bible teaches every single one; and anyone who denies even one of them has denied that book of Holy Scripture.

    RALPH

    I love your corrections, and it definitely does help clarify things to a great extent.

  160. 161 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Two thumbs up!!

  161. 162 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 8:45 pm

    Ralph said: “Echo’s corrected statement, “If you say “YES” to believing in these Mormon Christian quotes, then you believe in an entirely different Jesus than we anti-Mormons ‘Christians’ do.”

    Let me repeat what I have said numerous times in the past to you. We are not anti-Mormon, we are anti-Mormonism.

    Exodus 20:16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.”

  162. 163 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    Anne said: “The one I love, the one I believe in is spoken of in the Holy Bible. (and in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and in The Pearl of Great Price)”

    Can you list for me chapter and verse where the *words of Jesus himself* are contained in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and in The Pearl of Great Price?

    Thanking you in advance.

  163. 164 shematwater
    July 13, 2011 at 9:21 pm

    In the Doctrine and Covenants, the words of Jesus are found in almost every section. A few are letters from Joseph Smith (like Paul’s Epistles) and some are commemorations and such. However, out of the 138 sections (and two declarations) I would say that over 125 of them contain the words of Jesus Christ himself.
    As to the Book of Mormon, we read many of his words in the vision to the Brother of Jared in the first half of the book of Either. We then have the great accounts of Christ’s visit to the America’s in 3 Nephi.
    As to the Pearl of Great Price, we have the Joseph Smith translation from Matthew 25, which is directly from Christ, and we have the first vision of Joseph Smith in which Christ spoke personally.

    Of course you will likely reply with some statement on how these can’t be from Christ as they are written by “false prophets” and other such reasoning, but that really means nothing, as it is only opinion.

  164. 165 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Echo said, “We are not anti-Mormon, we are anti-Mormonism.”

    Humm, that isn’t the way you come across. In just this thread alone you have said,

    “the LDS siding with the devil”

    “But it is the LDS who is dividing this family”

    “As you LDS people say . . .”

    “The truth is that Mormons worship a different Jesus”

    It is very clear, Echo, that you ARE anti-Mormon.

  165. 166 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 9:31 pm

    Those are nice verses that do contain some warnings. But you haven’t provided a single verse to show support for your statement that “all” warnings are contained in the Bible.

  166. 167 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Ralph said: ” It is true that what we know about Him is more than is found in the Bible,”

    Everything we believe about Jesus comes from the BIBLE ALONE and those beliefs that we have are not in agreement with these Mormon beliefs….

    1) “He that overcomes shall retain his name in the book of life, reach godhood, and be with Jesus as he is with the Father.” … (Heading for Revelation chapter three in the LDS edition of the Bible.)

    2) “As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” (LDS: The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles p. 59.)

    3) “Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.” (LDS: Achieving A Celestial Marriage p. 1.)

    4) “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea… God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.” ( Joseph Smith, quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 325.)

    5) “God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones.” (LDS: Gospel Principles, p.9.)

    6) “I do not believe in the doctrine held by some that God is only a Spirit and that he is of such a nature that he fills the immensity of space, and is everywhere present in person, or without person, for I can not conceive it possible that God could be a person, if he filled the immensity of space and was everywhere present at the same time. It is unreasonable, a physical, a theological inconsistency, to imagine that even God the eternal Father would be in two places, as an individual, at the same moment. It is impossible. But his power extends throughout the immensity of space. His power extends to all his creations, and his knowledge comprehends them all, and he governs them all and he knows all.” ( Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith p.337. Text named for Melchezidek Priesthood & Relief Society Sunday Meetings for 2001 year.)

    7) “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow – three in one, and one in three!… He would be a wonderfully big God – he would be a giant or a monster.” (Joseph Smith History of the Church of Latter-day Saints, volume 6 p. 476.)

    8) “Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.
    How are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one? To answer, use the example of a father, mother, and children working for the same purpose.” (LDS: Gospel Principles Chapter 7 The Holy Ghost, p. 37)

    9) “Perfection is a word that causes different reactions from many people. Some people say, “Perfection? Why that is impossible!” Others say, “Perfection? I get discouraged just thinking about it!” “Yet would the Lord give us a commandment that was impossible for us to keep? And when he gives a commandment, doesn’t he, as Nephi said, prepare a way for us to accomplish what he commands?” (LDS: Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 57.)

    10) “Progress towards eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.” (LDS: Past Living Prophet and President Spencer W. Kimball, quoted in Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 386.)

    11) ” Resurrection and Judgment Attend Second Coming — At his coming, the Lord will sit in judgment on all nations, dividing the sheep from the goats, sending some to everlasting punishment and others to life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-46) At his coming, also, those who have earned the right to come forth in the resurrection of the just will rise from their graves and inherit their places in a celestial or a terrestrial kingdom. (LDS D&C 88:95-99) (Past Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Mormon Doctrine, p. 697.)

    12) “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons[sic], of evolving into a god.” (LDS: Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith p.337)

    13) “God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!…it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

    14) We have a Father; He is in heaven; …He says that we are His children. … we actually believe that God the Father is our heavenly Father, that we are His children; and we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother—that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, pp. 235-256, February 20, 1870)

    15) Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors …. There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the elder brother of the rest of humankind…. Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness. (Improvement Era, vol. 19, pp. 941-942, June 30, 1916)

    16) We are here to be tested and tried. There is a war between Satan and God. We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. We are the children of God. God begot us in the spirit in the eternal worlds. This fight that I speak of arose, as we are told, over the question as to how man should work out his earthly probation in a tabernacle of flesh and bones and obtain redemption. Satan differed from God, and he rebelled. We are told in the scriptures that he drew after him one third of the family of God. They thought his plan better than that of the Savior Jesus Christ. From that time until the present he has been struggling to destroy the plans of Jehovah, and to seduce the children of men—his brothers and sisters—from their allegiance to God. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23,)

    17) During his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood. At that time he was foreordained to be the Savior of this world. Father Abraham was privileged to see in vision the grand council in heaven that was held prior to the peopling of this earth, and he saw, as the Lord showed him, “many of the noble and great ones.” (LDS Conference Report, October 1949, p. 69)

    Those Mormon beliefs listed above are not found in the Bible as you yourself stated…. “It is true that what we know about Him is MORE THAN IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE”

  167. 168 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    Echo said, “Those Mormon beliefs listed above are not found in the Bible . . .”

    Not true.

    “. . . as you yourself stated….”

    I didn’t state that. You have written that sentence in a way to misrepresent what I actually said. The fact of the matter is the Bible itself makes it clear that all that Jesus did is NOT recorded in the Bible.

    John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

    1) See Rev 3.

    2) See Rom 8:17, Rev 3:17

    4) See Rom 8:17, Rev 3:17

    5) See Luke 24:39

    6) See Luke 24:39

    7) See John 17

    8) See John 17

    9) See Matt 5:48

    10) See Matt 5:48, Rev 3, Rom 8:17

    11) See John 5:28-29. Matt 25:31-46

    12) Gen 1:26, Heb 12:9, Rev 3, Rom 8:17

    13) See the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as found in the Bible.

    14) Already shown.

    15) See Rom 8:29

    16) I have demonstrated this before, I am not going to waste my time with it again.

    17) See John 1:1-3

  168. 169 shematwater
    July 13, 2011 at 9:58 pm

    Actually, as I have stated, all of these truths are found in the Bible, if you know where (and how) to look.

  169. 170 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    Echo,

    It is unfortunate that you are unable to do your own research.

    But if “cut and paste” is all you can to then I guess it is all you can do.

  170. 171 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:04 pm

    “Echo said, “We are not anti-Mormon, we are anti-Mormonism.”

    Ralph replied: “Humm, that isn’t the way you come across. In just this thread alone you have said,

    “the LDS siding with the devil”

    “But it is the LDS who is dividing this family”

    “As you LDS people say . . .”

    “The truth is that Mormons worship a different Jesus”

    It is very clear, Echo, that you ARE anti-Mormon.”

    *******************************************************************************************************************************************
    “the LDS siding with the devil”

    Because MORMONISM misleads Mormons to do that.

    “But it is the LDS who is dividing this family”

    Because MORMONISM misleads Mormons into doing that.

    “As you LDS people say . . .”

    Because MORMONISM misleads Mormons to saying things

    “The truth is that Mormons worship a different Jesus”

    Because MORMONISM teaches a Jesus that is VERY different from Christianity.

    ***********

    Are you anti-Christian Ralph?

  171. 172 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    I am Looking forward to your scripture and verse presentation of where all these truths are found in the Bible.

  172. 173 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    So, you are blaming your anti-Mormon-ism on Mormonism. LOL

    “Are you anti-Christian Ralph?”

    Nah, I am more anti- anti-Mormon-ism and anti- anti-Mormonism-ism.

    If this were a pro-(insert brand of other than LDS) “Christian” site, I wouldn’t be here.

  173. 174 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 10:14 pm

    See my post above.

    Well, with that I am off traveling for a week.

  174. 175 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    I am so thankful that I have already been saved by grace Not only BEFORE I do all I can do but totally apart from doing all I can do. That’s why I desire to do all I can do.

    Praise Jesus!

  175. 176 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:18 pm

    Well by your definition of anti-Mormon, you are more than anti-Christian.

  176. 177 shematwater
    July 13, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    ECHO

    Why would I bother giving you the scriptural references when I know you will just ignore it anyway. Ralph has done a good job, and there is no need for more. It just seems a waste of time.

  177. 178 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 11:04 pm

    Well there are more people than just me here. But to be honest, I don’t think you can do it.

  178. July 14, 2011 at 2:22 am

    Echo, I thought of addressing all of your statements in your post to me, however, I realized that really, what it boils down to is this. We just have more information than you do. If you think about it, you seem to be very satisfied with very little information. You claim that the things we believe are not in the Bible, yet they are, or parts of them are (some has been taken out)…and the Holy Ghost will teach you the mysteries as you seek to know more. Those who say they have enough, will not only NOT receive more, but what they have will actually diminish.

    Don’t you ever wonder what you will actually be doing once you leave this mortal world? Does the question ever enter you mind about Jesus coming down in a resurrected body, making a meal with them, eating with them, etc.? Do you ever wonder why it is important for us to even have a resurrected body when all is said and done? Do you ever wonder why there are an estimated 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars? And that is just the tip of what we can even imagine? Why? Don’t you ever wonder?

    Don’t you ever think about all of the patterns we see in life over and over again? Do you ever wonder why God refers to Jesus as His Son and calls us His sons and daughters? Do you ever wonder why He set us up as families here on earth and uses this pattern in every part of life? Do you ever wonder why the majority of NDE’s and the like, point to a Heaven and future much like the LDS teach?

    It is exhilerating to ponder on all the wonders of life, Heaven, and the way things really are. Why would anyone be satisfied with limiting their knowledge of God and the Spiritual world? Why would anyone look forward to a Heaven where there is no more progression? Why would our Father in Heaven put us on the earth and teach us how to progress, just to stop, go to Heaven, and ???

    It’s like this. WE believe in the same God and Jesus Christ you do, we just have more knowledge about them…knowledge He wants all of us to learn, the mysteries of the Kingdom, but we must seek for it. The Holy Ghost is there to teach us.

    You only want to contend about the silliest things and you repeat the same stuff over and over. Why don’t you stop stirring trouble and think for a while. It’s okay to think, to ponder, to meditate…it’s a healthy, spiritual process and then “ask” Heavenly Father things you want to know. He wants us to ask…to seek. Because of agency, we must ask.

    Just sayin…

  179. 180 Anne McKee
    July 14, 2011 at 3:20 am

    Kate,

    Perfect! Beautiful! YOU rock!

    love,
    Anne

  180. 181 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 4:09 am

    To be honest Kate, I don’t have time to think of such things often, I spend a large portion of my free time worrying about the spiritual and eternal welfare of Mormons.

  181. 183 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 5:09 am

    The link says: “sorry, this video is unavailable from this site”

  182. July 14, 2011 at 5:16 am

    must be where you are…works fine from the computers, and ipads in my house.

  183. 185 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 5:34 am

    I am in Canada.

  184. 186 shematwater
    July 15, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    ECHO

    I never said I couldn’t give Biblical references. I said I chose not to. You have once again tried to play the bully, which seems fairly common for you. I don’t answer, and so you try to twist it into I can’t answer. The simple fact is that even if I did (like Ralph has done) you would either ignore it (like you did with Ralph’s comment) or you would simply begin another tirade about how wrong I am in my interpretation.
    So, again, I say there is no point is listing all of them. You know it just as much as I do. You mention that there are others here; but all those posting either know the references themselves or would react in the same way as you. So again, there is no point.
    As to the idea of passing readers who don’t actually comment, I would simply tell them to visit LDS.org or mormon.org, or call their local missionaries. These are all resources in which can be found the information I speak of. If they are not curious enough to do this then my posting it here will have very little effect on them anyway.

    So, comment civilly on every reference that Ralph has given and then I will consider adding to his list.

  185. 187 shematwater
    July 15, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    ECHO

    You are again in error. Ralph has never said anything against Christians as a group. He has made a few comments concerning you and others here, so you may argue that he is Anti-anti-Mormons, but not anti-christian.

  186. 188 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Ralph, the LDSReligion fails the definition of #2. So by your definition the LDS religion is not Christian. The LDS religion does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” “that whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life.” by putting the mormon prophets and the Mormon scripture before Jesus, the LDS church takes it’s members away from the true Jesus. Therefore, they are not Christians.

  187. July 18, 2011 at 9:21 pm

    martha,

    Hi there, You said, “The LDS religion does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” “that whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life.” by putting the mormon prophets and the Mormon scripture before Jesus, the LDS church takes it’s members away from the true Jesus. Therefore, they are not Christians.”

    Would you please give me one example where the LDS Church does not follow the teachings of Jesus?
    thanks :)

    ~Anne

  188. 190 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    Ralph, have you compared the teachings of Jesus in the Bible with Mormon doctrine? They aren’t the same thing. A lot of the people I know who have come out of Mormonism say it is because they started reading the Bible. Read Galatians and Hebrews, not to mention the rest of the Word.

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

    Is that the teaching of the Mormon religion, that you have to be born again to see the kingdom of God?

  189. 191 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Read the entire New Testament in it’s entirety, word for word, Anne and tell me you still feel the same way. I pray that you all will read the Bible to see the truth. Also, I would recommend that you get a more current version of the Bible. The definitions today aren’t the same as they were in the 1800s. For example, charity meant love then. We use the word love now and the Bible has been updated to use current terminology. I use the NIV bible, it’s way easier to understand than old engilsh. Praying for you all.

  190. 192 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    Read the Bible.

  191. 193 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    Read the Bible

  192. 194 Martha
    July 18, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

    Is that the teaching of the Mormon religion, that you have to be born again to see the kingdom of God?

    Read the entire New Testament in it’s entirety, word for word, Anne and tell me you still feel the same way. I pray that you all will read the Bible to see the truth. Also, I would recommend that you get a more current version of the Bible. The definitions today aren’t the same as they were in the 1800s. For example, charity meant love then. We use the word love now and the Bible has been updated to use current terminology. I use the NIV bible, it’s way easier to understand than old engilsh. Praying for you all.

  193. July 18, 2011 at 11:04 pm

    I have read the Bible! Many times! The Old and New Testament. I have NEVER found a single thing in the Bible that did not match up with my beliefs (excepting any errors).

    As a matter of fact, I think that our beliefs (the LDS) help me understand the Bible even better! Principles that are mentioned in the Bible are expounded upon in the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ.

    Can you give me an example so that I know where you are coming from? What is it about the LDS church that makes you think we don’t follow Jesus or what do you think we put ahead of Jesus?

    thanks for your time,
    Anne

  194. 196 Martha
    July 19, 2011 at 2:25 am

    Hi Anne,

    You didn’t answer my question about being born again.

    However, I will answer your question. My parents were teaching primary last year. They were going through the Mormon profits. At the end of the year, I asked my mom, “did you talk about Jesus during the year? Her answer was, “that’s done in a different year.” A whole year without Jesus? Poor kids. Last year I visited Salt Lake City. There were billboards with a picture of Joseph Smith with the words “Praise the Man.” That is idolatry. The Mormon church puts their prophets – living and dead before Jesus Christ.

    I was raised Mormon and have subsequently found the true Jesus. Believe me, the Mormon doctrine does not know the real Jesus. There is a major difference. One of my favorite passages in the Bible is in John where the pharisee’s kept telling Jesus – “you can’t do that on Sunday, How dare you do that miracle, etc.” In John 7:24 Jesus tells the pharisee’s “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make the right judgement.” In other words, God does not judge by what you do, but what is in your heart. That is what it means by being born again. You are judged not by what you do, but by your love of Jesus Christ. If the Mormon church followed those teachings, they would not require you to pay tithing, be good enough to go to the temple, require you to go to a certain ward at a certain time and keep track of whether you attend or do this or that. The Mormon church is like the Pharisees and it was the Pharisees that killed Jesus.

    Jesus Christ only requires your love and your devotion. If you admit you are a sinner and can never be perfect, He will come into your heart. If you ask for his forgiveness for sins, he is faithful to forgive at that moment. If you ask Him into your heart to be a part of your life, you will be born again, a new being wanting to obey because you love Him so much. At that moment you are guaranteed eternal presence with Him, your Lord and Savior. Your salvation has nothing to do with what you do, but only your love for Him.

    The Mormon church is keeping it’s people from that Love. That is why Christians have a compulsion to try to tell you the truth. When I got born again, I had a difficult time learning what Grace was. It is unconditional Love by your God. That is why we believe the Mormon people are under bondage of their religion and wanr to tell you the truth. The truth that it doesn’t matter what you do, it matters that you love your God and ask Him into your heart. This allows you to enter the Kingdom at that time to be with Jesus. To be in His presence. I am assured of living with Jesus for all eternity because I already am. That is the difference between Christianity and Mormonism. The Bible says “Love your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. Mormonism says “Obey your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all you mind and with all your strength.” Luke 12:30.

    I believe the people in the Mormon church are good people, they have been indoctrinated with the replacement of Love with obey. That is why the Mormon church does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and are NOT Christians.

    Please believe me, Anne, that I am praying for all the Mormon people that the scales will be removed from their eyes, as the Pharisee Saul’s scales were removed from his eyes so that he could see the true Jesus. God bless you all.

  195. July 19, 2011 at 2:34 am

    I have to believe that you are not being truthful here, Martha. Never does a lesson go by where Jesus Christ isn’t part of the lesson. When we learn anything from the Prophets or Apostles, it is about Christ.

    “And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” 2 Nephi 25:26

    You will have to try a lot harder if you want others to think you know anything about Mormonism. So far, with all due respect, you are batting 0. Stay a while, you might learn something wonderful!

  196. 198 Martha
    July 19, 2011 at 3:23 am

    Just stating my experience with my lost Mormon parents. You still haven’t answered by question. Are you born again, members of the Mormon religion?

    Are you saying there were no billboards in SLC saying “Praise the man.”

    Are you born again?

  197. July 19, 2011 at 4:03 am

    Mosiah 27:25, 26 “And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, ye, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; and thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.”

    show me a billboard that says “Praise the man”…

    And yes, I have been born again…have you? if so, great! Your “lost Mormon Parents” statement says volumes. I still do not believe a word you are saying. None of it is credible. So far, you are just digging yourself deeper.

    If you would like to have a decent conversation, you need to let go of the charade.

  198. July 19, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Hi Martha,

    I am glad you are happy! I think your parents will be alright!
    Yes, I am born again. When I was baptized as a teenager, I was truly born again….just as Jesus taught…through baptism. I don’t live in Salt Lake City….so I don’t know if there were billboards….but so what if there were? We DO praise Joseph Smith. Just like millions of people sing the praises of Abraham. It is not worship, just praise.

    I love Joseph. He was an instrument in the hands of God and he stands at the head of this dispensation…the dispensation of the fulness of times. You will have to deal with him someday! Me too, and i can’t wait.

    I wonder what YOU would think if you heard your parents refer to you as their “lost” daughter? just curious!

    Anne

  199. 201 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 1:21 am

    Kate,

    The mormon verse you quote is a great example of how the Mormon church twists the Bible Word of God so that you don’t understand the true meaning. John 3:2-8

    Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    I was not born again when I was baptized at the age of 8. I did not have the spirit. My mormon baptism was of the flesh. It was only when I received God into my heart at the age of 45 that I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and began a life devoted to Jesus Christ. I praise and worship only Jesus Christ. To praise any other, in my belief, is idolatry.

    Here is a link to a discussion of Joseph Smith. Read down to the 4th comment where it talks about the Joseph Smith billboards.
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090209204503AAgNoZA

    You can also look in your hymnal and sing “Praise to the man.” I do not praise Abraham, Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Paul or any other apostle, they are man. I praise God and God alone.

    Kate and Anne, you don’t know my parents. Though I love them dearly, they are negative, critical, depressed, burdened and self absorbed. They do not know Jesus and they would not call me lost as they know that I am totally devoted to Jesus Christ and Him alone.

    Also, I won’t deal with God someday, I deal with Him today. He is my only prophet, my comforter, my companion, my love. My name is already written in the Book of Life. This is not a charade. It’s the difference between mormonism and Christianity.

    I recommend you read Hebrews for answers to these issues. You are in my prayers today that you will see the true Jesus. The Jesus who died on the cross for our sins. He died because we can never be righteous. Only through Christ’s death on the cross can we be made righteous. It’s the difference between being self centered and Christ centered. I am nothing, only in Christ Jesus am I made righteous – not of myself, but of Him, my God. I praise Him every day for the ultimate sacrifice He made for me. He made that sacrifice for you as well, if you choose to accept Him into your heart, admit to Him you are a sinner and am in need of Him and Him only. God bless you.

  200. July 20, 2011 at 1:56 am

    Martha, please show me how the scripture I quoted twists the Word of God….then I will address that comment.

    Answers from yahoo is where you get your information? That says enough for me to not give it much validity. Have you seen a billboard that says Praise the Man? Now, there was a book called Praise to the Man, it could very well have been an advertisement for that.

    Besides that, the first definition for Praise in dictionaries is this:
    1. the act of expressing approval or admiration; commendation; laudation”

    You may be mistaking the word as meaning “worship”. We do not worship Joseph Smith.

    There are many people in this world, LDS and non-LDS alike, who are “negative, critical, depressed, burdened and self absorbed.”

    Why do you think we don’t deal with God today? Most of your comments clearly portray a person who “thinks they know about Mormonism”, but really know very little about it.

    Thank you for having me in your prayers, however, I think the Lord must feel a bit saddened that you have judged me so unrighteously. You do not know me, or my heart. You do not know my personal relationship with my Father in Heaven, and my Savior, Jesus Christ, nor do you know how the very presence of the Holy Ghost abides with me at all times, teaching me.

    You do not walk in my shoes and know how Christ-centered my life is. Yet, you speak as though you “know” and have the unrighteous nerve to tell me I am worshipping a false Jesus. I’ll bet that brings tears to His eyes that you have judged me in such a way, when He knows my heart and my life is centered in Him.

    Your ‘God bless you’ is a contradiction to your words.

  201. July 20, 2011 at 2:02 am

    I forgot to expound on the sentence “There are many people in the world…” what I wanted to say about that is, that it is not about Mormonism. It could be many things contributing to those sad adjectives of their lives. Maybe you should take a good look at how you are judging them. Do you bring some of those traits out in them? Do you bash their beliefs? Do you criticize them?

    You speak as though you are very young. Do you think that life does not burden people? Of course, if people have a lot of faith, they handle life a bit better, even the tough times…yet, that will be in any religion. Do you really think that the other non-LDS Christians around you don’t feel burdened, depressed, negative, critical, etc? Prove it.

  202. 204 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 2:12 am

    Kate said: “and have the unrighteous nerve to tell me I am worshipping a false Jesus. I’ll bet that brings tears to His eyes that you have judged me in such a way”

    Martha hasn’t judged you unrighteously. (The LDS must have a different definition of what it means to judge unrighteously)

    The Bible itself, which is God’s very own word, teaches us who is following a false Jesus and who isn’t. The Bible also teaches us to rescue those who follow a false Jesus. So when we tell you that, we don’t do that to throw it in your face so-to-speak, we do it to rescue you from it. It’s like the parable of finding the one lost sheep. God doesn’t want anyone to be lost.

  203. July 20, 2011 at 2:18 am

    Hello Echo. Nothing in the Bible shows that we are following a false Jesus. I have countered everything you have put to me with scripture, and you have never been able to refute it. So, you are wrong in saying that you have the right to tell me I am following a false Jesus. Mormons do not need rescued. You have not been able to prove me wrong with any scripture.

  204. 206 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 2:37 am

    Thanks Echo.

    Kate, I was a Mormon for 24 years. I was raised a Mormon. I know the difference between Mormonism and the true Jesus. My parents are all those things because of the Mormon church. It’s a burden trying to live up to all the Mormon requires it’s members to do to gain salvation. IT IS A BURDEN.

    Christianity equates praise and worship as the same thing. I praise and worship God and God alone, not man. Not my pastor, not my spiritual mentors. GOD and GOD alone. I am not judging you, I’m trying to show you the true Jesus – as the Bible dictates. I’m not judging you, I’m telling you about my experiences between the Mormon bondage and the freedom of the true Jesus.

    Still praying for you as a member of the religion of bondage as I do for all mormons.

  205. 207 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 2:39 am

    Kate, and I say this sincerely and with great concern for you… you have been deceived. Deception is just that…it’s very difficult to detect and that means that a person must pay careful attention in order to catch it and avoid it. That’s why ongoing and lengthy discussions (friendly discussions) are needed between Mormons and Christians.

    Can I ask you a question? If the real truth was that you were indeed deceived so badly that the result of that would one day land you in Hell, would you want to know so that you could avoid that fate?

    I know that I sure would want to know and find out now before it’s too late. How about you?

  206. 208 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 2:41 am

    Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  207. July 20, 2011 at 2:56 am

    You throw out the words burden and bondage. I say prove it. You obviously do not understand the LDS doctrine. We do not teach anything that leads to bondage…just the opposite. My soul soars the depths of Heaven because of the Gospel, and because I have learned that obeying the commandments and walking the walk that Jesus taught us…IN THE BIBLE… enables me to have the spirit with me that opens up the mysteries of His Kingdom, that brings to my soul, more light and knowledge….that is exactly the opposite of bondage. I have learned through suffering, tragedy, and plain ole’ life, that through these things, we can choose to turn away from God, or towards Him…and turning to Him results in being even more purified until one actually can be in His presence. I have chosen to live a life centered in Christ, finding reward in faithfully serving Him, even though I am an unprofitable servant when it comes to what He has done for me. I do not go around saying I am “saved”, bashing people’s faith. I cherish the thought that others have faith in Him and want to walk the walk. I live as so to be an example of my faith, so that if those who long to come closer to Him, can know the way. Sweet Martha, I know that someday, you will see what you have closed your eyes to, and you will know that He is merciful. I do not condemn you for being blinded by the craftiness of others. My heart is hopeful that the scales that are actually clouding YOUR vision will fall someday and you will know that you are loved….and can return.

  208. July 20, 2011 at 3:11 am

    Martha,

    Read the conversations here. We have already addressed those scriptures over and over…we have quoted from the same author, the opposite of what you are implying here.

    No need to rehash it.

    Echo,

    The answer to your question is this: I know without a doubt that the Gospel I live, study, and pray about, the Gospel I seek more light and knowledge about, is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that He was crucified for the sins of the world and that salvation can be ours through His atoning blood.

    You say that you would want to know and find out now before it’s too late. Do you really “know” that what you teach here is true? Do you know it without a doubt? Do you know that you are not a little mistaken, perhaps unknowingly believing some untruths? I ask sincerely.

    Again, I KNOW without a doubt.

  209. 211 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 3:13 am

    Kate,

    Well let’s see:
    1. You have to go to one ward and no other. You have to go to church at the time they say and no other.
    2. You have to prove you have paid your tithing (tithing settlement). If you don’t, your temple recommend will be revoked.
    3. You have to attend church regularly and if you don’t they will call you and ask you why. They take role.
    4. If you are called to a position, you have to take it.
    5. You can’t drink a glass of wine or drink coffee or tea, but you can drink all the diet Pepsi you want.

    Should I go on.

  210. 212 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:15 am

    I love this verse too:

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Not of works, lest any man should boast. ”

    Notice that the verse states that we are “saved” not of ourselves, not of our works. Contrast that with this…

    —-” If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.” (Heber J Grant (LDS)

    Here we are saved by obeying the commandments which contradicts : “not of works”.

    Here we are saved of ourselves: “No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. ” which contradicts “not of ourselves”

  211. 213 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 3:26 am

    Oh, I forgot the most important bondage.

    If you leave the mormon church, you will become non-existent.

  212. 214 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:28 am

    Kate: said: “No need to rehash it”

    I think doctrines need to be discussed much longer than you feel they do. Deception is never caught in the short amount of time this verse has been discussed.

    Kate said: ” The answer to your question is this: I know without a doubt that the Gospel I live, study, and pray about, the Gospel I seek more light and knowledge about, is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that He was crucified for the sins of the world and that salvation can be ours through His atoning blood.”

    Did you know that God wants us to remain teachable? I encourage you to not close yourself off. Be a Berean.

    Kate said: “You say that you would want to know and find out now before it’s too late. Do you really “know” that what you teach here is true? Do you know it without a doubt? Do you know that you are not a little mistaken, perhaps unknowingly believing some untruths? I ask sincerely.”

    I believe that what I teach here is true. Yet I remain teachable because anyone (You or I) can unknowingly believe some untruths. I am not too proud to admit that. Are you?

  213. 215 Martha
    July 20, 2011 at 3:30 am

    Yes Echo,
    Isn’t that the bottom line difference between the mormon religion and true Christianity. Works are a BURDEN. But it doesn’t have to be a burden, if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    Thanks for all your help in this discussion.

  214. 216 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:41 am

    Martha, glad to help. Thank you for your love for Mormons!

    We probably should clarify to Kate that keeping the commandments isn’t a burden in and of itself, but keeping the commandments in order to be saved is a burden. That is slavery. (I just thought I would make this point clearer so that what you said isn’t misunderstood-I knew what you meant but Kate may not)

    1 John 5:3 “In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,”

  215. July 20, 2011 at 4:08 am

    Martha,

    Well let’s see:

    “1. You have to go to one ward and no other. You have to go to church at the time they say and no other.”

    So, tell me…when my next door neighbor chooses to attend the Lakeside Church down the street, how is it any different. He has to attend at the time they have church. He could choose a different church, if he wanted to go at a different time, but would have to learn different ideas and truths based on what denomination, or non-denomination that church is.

    We, on the other hand, can attend any LDS building or ward, or whatever and it will always teach the same truths. We are welcome in any ward, anywhere, and have many time slots to choose from. Yes, we have a home ward, but it comes in handy when traveling to be able to attend and have the same loving truths and atmosphere envelop us and make us feel at home. We have members of our ward who have to work during our time slot, so have the ability to still attend church and feel right at home, yet because they have a ward they actually belong to, they have a ward family to be there for them in times of need, friendship, etc.”

    “2. You have to prove you have paid your tithing (tithing settlement). If you don’t, your temple recommend will be revoked.”

    First, it’s not a “have to”. Many people do not pay tithing. Many others have not gone to the temple. The temple is not church. To make it more understandable, I will share with you a quote from an LDS member at lightplanet.com

    “Many religions have certain ceremonies and/or places sacred to their faith that are only reserved for faithful adherents. For example, only Muslims are allowed to make a pilgrimage to the Kaaba at Mecca and only Roman Catholics may enter all the buildings in Vatican City. However, as a Latter-day Saint, my inability to tour Mecca and the innermost parts of the Vatican has never bothered me. Perhaps this is because I respect the religious views of others even when I disagree with them. Therefore, I can only assume that those who rail against Latter-day Saints for restricting the most sacred expressions of our faith do not have that same respect for us or our religion. This is a rather hypocritical attitude. While these people may claim that we are intolerant for restricting participation in temple ordinances, their disrespect of us is the real intolerance.

    Since some people respect our beliefs, but are still sincerely interested in why only faithful Latter-day Saints may participate in temple ordinances, I will attempt an explanation as follows:

    1) Most learning disciplines, including spiritual ones, have a sequential approach to learning. For example, before a person enters graduate school, he must usually complete college. Before one enters college, he must usually complete high school. Are all students from kindergarten through high school placed in the same class? No. Why do we have different grades? Why are elementary students placed in one building and high school students in another? They are at different levels and need instruction and an environment tailored specifically to their individual needs.

    Likewise, before a person partakes of the deep spiritual lessons taught in the temple, he must complete the necessary prerequisites. Otherwise, an unsatisfactory experience would result for all concerned.

    All men and women, including nonmembers, are encouraged to fulfill the preliminary steps necessary to enter the temple. However, only those people who have completed these prerequisites, as evidenced by issuance of a temple recommend, are allowed to do so. Temple recommends are given to members of the Church who have completed the preliminary steps of faith, repentance, baptism, and confirmation. Adult males must also have been ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

    While these preliminary steps do not guarantee a candidate will have reached the necessary spiritual maturity, it is more likely that they will have developed it.

    2) Temple ordinances come with associated covenants of faithfulness. The ordinances of the Temple are not simply outward signs of worship that any person may make. They are associated with sacred covenants between the individual and God. If a person breaks a temple covenant, he will bring upon him a greater degree of damnation than one who has never entered the temple. It should be mentioned that those who go to the temple do so to make these covenants. Temple worship is not an observatory experience. Everyone goes to participate and there are no spectator seats. Therefore, the Church restricts admission to those adherents who have demonstrated that they have both the desire and the ability to keep these sacred covenants. This is a protection to the unprepared. To allow people to participate in these ordinances with full knowledge that they do not respect them or intend to keep them is to mock them [and thus mock God who created them].

    3) The Lord has given his children temples so that they may have a place of refuge from the carnal and sensual world. It is a place where only those who have gained a certain level of spirituality are allowed to enter. If anyone could enter the Temple, the spiritual experiences of the prepared would be hampered by the unprepared. The temple would no longer be a refuge from the outside world. The Lord has taught us: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (The Holy Bible, Matthew 18:20) The temple is a place where many gather in the name of Jesus to partake of the highest blessings of the gospel.” by W. John Walsh

    “3. You have to attend church regularly and if you don’t they will call you and ask you why. They take role.”

    They do not call you and ask you why. That is ridiculous. Your member friends may be concerned about and friends may call and ask how you are…taking role is beneficial to assess the number of active members, to know when so many have moved into the ward and when it is time to divide and create a new ward. Attendance in any organized group of people helps in funding activities, having enough teachers, etc. Your blatant mischaracterization of this is humorous.

    “4. If you are called to a position, you have to take it.”

    This is absolutely not true. You NEVER have to accept a calling. I have seen many choose not to take a calling. But tell me, when you feel you have been called by the Lord to serve Him and feed His sheep, do you tell Him no? It IS up to you and only you. We encourage members to go home and pray about it first before they accept. We also include spouses in the decision of the acceptance of a calling, so as not to burden the family if it should be a burden on them.

    “5. You can’t drink a glass of wine or drink coffee or tea, but you can drink all the diet Pepsi you want.”

    The Word of Wisdom does not teach anything about caffeine. People just presume it does. We have however been counseled not to take any addictive substances into our bodies. So anyone with a good sense of what is healthy for your body, would do well to stay away from Pepsi, Coke, or any other Soda for that matter. Are people perfect in your Christian world? No one ever said that Mormons are perfect and though Echo would like all to believe otherwise, the Lord did not teach commandments that we cannot possibly keep. However, He also knew we would fail at times…that is why He died for us, so that through His atoning blood, we could repent.

    Martha, I’m sad for you that you are taking part in turning others from the truth.

    Should I go on.

  216. July 20, 2011 at 4:14 am

    Martha: “Oh, I forgot the most important bondage.

    If you leave the mormon church, you will become non-existent.”

    You know you are bearing false witness. That is a blatant lie, or, if any Bishop did ever say that, I’m sure he will answer to the Lord for that. It is not what we teach or how we act. I could show you lesson after lesson about that very subject.

  217. July 20, 2011 at 4:23 am

    I see you do not read carefully…did you miss this?

    “The answer to your question is this: I know without a doubt that the GOSPEL I LIVE, STUDY, AND PRAY ABOUT, THE GOSPEL I SEEK MORE LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT,is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    The words, live, study, pray, seek, mean that I remain teachable. I strive to keep the Holy spirit with me so that I quickly see when I am unknowingly believing an untruth…and keep myself open to learning and knowing ALL truth. I believe there is much we don’t even know YET. I believe that He wants for us to seek more light and knowledge.

    Again, you judge me unrighteously.

  218. 220 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 4:29 am

    Kate said: “The words, live, study, pray, seek, mean that I remain teachable.”

    Please accept my apologies, I misunderstood you.

  219. 221 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 4:34 am

    Kate, what are your thoughts on this post (or did I miss your reply?)…

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Not of works, lest any man should boast. ”

    Notice that the verse states that we are “saved” not of ourselves, not of our works. Contrast that with this…

    —-” If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.” (Heber J Grant (LDS)

    Here we are saved by obeying the commandments which contradicts : “not of works”.

    Here we are saved of ourselves: “No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. ” which contradicts “not of ourselves”

  220. July 20, 2011 at 4:52 am

    “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.” John 15:10

    Remember the 10 virgins, which took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 5 were wise…they had done the work to put enough oil in their lamps so as to be ready when the bridegroom cometh. When they heard the bridgroom come, the 5 foolish said to the wise, give us of you oil, for our lamps have gone out. But the wise said, no, go to buy some and while they went to buy, the bridgroom came and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.

    And the man who called his own servants and gave to one 5 talents, and to another two, and to another, one. He that received 5, increased them, he that received two, did the same and gained another two…but he that received one, buried it and did nothing…which was the Lord pleased with?

    The Lord requires us to do the works of righteousness.

  221. July 20, 2011 at 4:55 am

    i started to, and actually would like to address this more, but have children that need tucked in bed now. I will have to try tomorrow evening.

  222. 224 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 5:09 am

    Kate, we also believe in obedience to the commandments. We just don’t believe the way to be saved is by our obedience to the commandments: ” If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God” (Heber J Grant (LDS)

    We are not demanding that you believe what we believe, but it would be nice if you would understand what we believe before you reject it. Just a thought.

  223. 225 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 5:10 am

    No problem Kate, Your kids need you. Talk to ya tommorow.

  224. 226 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    MARTHA

    John3: 5-8
    “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. ”

    So what you are saying is that you have not been born of water, and thus you have not followed the teachings of Christ.
    The LDS are born again, for we are born of water (Baptism) and of the spirit (confirmation). You, on the other hand, seem to only claim being born of the spirit, and thus you are missing half of what Christ has taught.

    As to Ephesians 2: 8-9, I love the passage too, but it does not mean what you think it means. All it is saying is that in and of ourselves we have no power to achieve salvation, and thus no man can truly boast of his own works. It does not say that works are not necessary, only that they are not sufficient.

    ECHO

    This does not contradict what President Grant taught, as much as you will try to make it sound like it does. We are the ones that we decide whether we are saved or not, and we will do so through our actions and obedience. However, it is still the power of God that saves us. He has promised this gift to all those who obey him, and thus if we do not obey him the gift of salvation is withheld. So, by our choice to obey our not we bring about our salvation, but, just as Paul said, without God it would not be possible so how can we boast.

    It is like attending college. A person can do all the work required for a degree, but if he is not enrolled and obeying the rules of the University he will receive nothing. On the other hand, a person who is enrolled but does not do the work will also receive nothing. It requires us to be enrolled (faith) as well as doing the work that guarantees our receipt of the desired degree.

    Now, I would like to ask a very simple question: what do our works do for us in terms of eternity?

    As to rejecting your beliefs without understanding them, why don’t you learn ours before rejecting them. You have continually proven that you have no clue as to what we actually teach, so why have you rejected it? Why are you so unteachable and unwilling to consider that it is you who are deceived?
    Before you accuse us of things, just to evaluate yourself.

  225. 227 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 9:58 pm

    Shem said: ” He has promised this gift to all those who obey him, and thus if we do not obey him the gift of salvation is withheld”

    In my own opinion (not LDS teachings) what you have said above shows me that we are saved by what we do. The point we have been trying to make all along.

    If I do it, I am saved
    If I don’t do it, I am not saved
    Conclusion, I am saved by what I do.

    Shem said: “by our choice to obey our not we bring about our salvation but, just as Paul said, without God it would not be possible so how can we boast.”

    Yes. That is exactly how I understand LDS doctrine.

    But these are my personal thoughts on what you said…

    According to your very own words, WHO is bringing about your salvation? You are… (” By our choice” and “ we bring about our salvation” Granted, God then gives his grace to you so in that regard YOU first do your part and then GOD will do his part. In other words, your salvation rests on what you do. If you do your part to save yourself, God will do his part and save you.

    Shem said: “Now, I would like to ask a very simple question: what do our works do for us in terms of eternity?”

    I honestly don’t know what my works will do for me in terms of eternity. I don’t do works with reward in mind or with anticipation of what I will get out of it. I am happy to do works just because Jesus loves me. I am already so grateful for all that he has given me, I certainly think that he has already given me so much more than I deserve. I think he deserves all the rewards for my works, not me!

    Shem said: “As to rejecting your beliefs without understanding them, why don’t you learn ours before rejecting them. You have continually proven that you have no clue as to what we actually teach, so why have you rejected it? Why are you so unteachable and unwilling to consider that it is you who are deceived?”

    You may not agree with me, and that’s fine, but I think I understand the LDS teachings that have been shared on this blog a lot better than you give me credit for. But I am always listening and learning from all of you in the event I have understood something wrong. But so far everything everyone has said is exactly what I believe about LDS doctrine., I think the thing that gives you the impression that I don’t understand your beliefs is this….I give my own personal opinions on LDS beliefs, and that personal opinion often gets confused with my not understanding LDS beliefs. Or because I don’t use the right words or don’t say enough, that gets confused with my not understanding LDS beliefs. I am having difficulty explaining to you what I mean by all of this. And I am thinking of ways to make this more clear in my posts, but I am not there yet. I know my posts aren’t clear on this yet, I am working on it, thinking about how to make it more clear. If you have any suggestions for me, I would welcome those.

    And just to let you know, from here on out I will not be responding to posts that contain personal attacks or are disrespectful. Please feel free to do the same if you feel that way about our posts. Sound fair?

  226. 228 shematwater
    July 21, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    ECHO

    You said “If I do it, I am saved; If I don’t do it, I am not saved; Conclusion, I am saved by what I do.”

    This is what makes you sound as if you don’t understand.
    Think of a bike compared to a car.
    On a bike by pedaling I directly move the chain that causes the wheel to turn. The speed and power of the bike is directly contingent on how much work I put into pedaling.
    However, in a car, though I put pressure on the gas pedal, my putting pressure is not the direct cause of the car moving. It is the direct cause of the pistons moving and gas flowing, but even that would not be possible if the ignition had not been turned in to start the sparks. Once all these things are set and the car is moving by my pushing the pedal the speed and power of the car is still not directly contingent on the amount of pressure I put on the pedal, but is dependent more on the engine in the car, the type of fuel being used, and how well kept the entire system is.

    Now, what you continue to say sounds like you claiming we believe that it is all on us, or that we are riding the bike (granted, Christ gave us the bike, but still).
    In reality we believe that we must do our part, but the greatest part has been done by Christ, and thus we are driving the car. He has built it with a powerful engine, perfect fuel, and has placed pit stops along the journey where we can get repairs if necessary. We still have to drive it, as it doesn’t go by itself, but the greatest work on the journey is already done for us. We just need the faith to push on that pedal.

    One more question: If nothing we do can have any effect on whether or not we are saved, then why is anyone damned?

    Now, concerning what works do for us, you have proven they really don’t matter. If there is no reason for them other than what you give than the vilest of sinners will still be in heaven, as long as they believe. Basically you have given every person the license to do whatever they want as it will have absolutely no effect on their souls (as long as they believe anyway).

  227. 229 RLO
    July 21, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Shem:

    You said that if there’s no reason for works, other than reasons given by Echo, then the vilest of sinners will still be in heaven, so long as they believe. I’d say, as hard as this may be for you to believe, yes it is true. the vilest of sinner will be in heaven, so long as they believe. (Along with Paul, and Echo, who are both admittedly, a couple of the worst sinners…). And, AND, so long as that vilest of sinners really does believe, good works will naturally follow as evidence of his belief. Just as a lack of good works would be evidence of his unbelief. There is no belief absent of good works. It’s only a question of which comes first, and which causes which.

    Therefore your statement, “Basically you have given every person the license to do whatever they want as it will have absolutely no effect on their souls (as long as they believe anyway).” … this statement is not really an accurate portrayal of what we believe.

  228. 230 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 11:12 pm

    Shem,

    Yes, your car analogy is a very good analogy and exactly how I view LDS theology also.

    Again, what I am about to say is not “LDS theology”, but rather, it is my own personal thoughts about LDS theology. (My own evaluation.)

    In light of the fact that I totally agree with your car analogy as representing LDS beliefs, when I said:

    “If I do it, I am saved
    If I don’t do it, I am not saved
    Conclusion, I am saved by what I do.”

    Here is what I was saying…

    Even though God supplies the car, YOU still have to drive the car in order to get to your destination.

    If you drive the car, you are saved
    If you don’t drive the car, you are not saved
    Conclusion, you are saved by driving the car to your destination even though God gave you the car.

    Shem said: “One more question: If nothing we do can have any effect on whether or not we are saved, then why is anyone damned?”

    Unbelief damns. We can “do” something to reject salvation even though we can “do nothing” to be saved.

    If I may borrow your car analogy to explain the comparison of differences between our beliefs (Although because it is difficult to apply what we believe to your car analogy, I am letting you know now that I am using it hesitantly and I do not really want to stretch this analogy beyond the few points I am about to make)…

    For Mormons, God gives you a car, that **if ** you drive it, you may or may not reach your salvation destiny.
    So for you, the car represents “the way” to possible salvation.

    For us, God gives us a car that does not represent “the way” to salvation but the car itself “is” our salvation given to us, right here, right now. Do you understand the picture I am trying to portray here?

    So we have a picture here of God giving us a car. So while rejecting this gift is certainly something we can “do” and in so doing we would forfeit the car, at the same time, believing God gave us this gift does not mean we had something to “do” with the car itself being assembled and put together and given to us. The car was complete(assembled), the car was finished, the car was given to us, before we believed. In the very act of God giving us the car, he is giving us at the same time, the gift to believe he gave it to us. So faith is simply trusting that he gave us the finished car.

    So while you spend your entire life driving the car so that in the end you might possibly be saved. We spend our entire lives driving our car around having already been saved by it and because of it, by serving our God and our neighbor out of love for both of them .

    Shem said: ” Now, concerning what works do for us, you have proven they really don’t matter. If there is no reason for them other than what you give than the vilest of sinners will still be in heaven, as long as they believe. Basically you have given every person the license to do whatever they want as it will have absolutely no effect on their souls (as long as they believe anyway).”

    I have never said that works “don’t really matter” Here is what I believe…

    We are not saved as the result of anything we have done or will do. Works are not required to be saved. However, once we are saved and because we have been saved all apart from anything we have done or will do, this amazing love of God that he has poured into our hearts overflows from our own hearts and leads us to hate sin and to desire to live a life pleasing to God. Like James said: “Faith without works is dead” But those works do not save us, they are only evidence of our faith and gratitide in what God has done for us by giving us a free salvation.

    I tend to view LDS theology more along the lines of having a license to sin. Otherwise why does the Mormon Church teach that the broad way leads to the Terrestrial or is it the Telestial Heaven when Jesus taught that it leads to destruction? (Matthew 7:13, 14)

  229. 231 Ralph Peterson
    July 22, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    No!

  230. 232 Ralph Peterson
    July 22, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    Echo,

    Unfortunately, you are one of them. As I have demonstrated many times, you reject the actual word’s of the Word of God (that is the teachings of Jesus) and accept your erroneous interpretation of the word of God instead. Thus you take “the word of God” over “the Word of God”.

    Tis sad to see.

  231. 233 shematwater
    July 22, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    RLO

    I know what you profess, but the logical conclusion is still as I have stated. Take, for example, Judas Iscariot. He was a man who believed, for he was called as one of the twelve. He followed Christ and knew him to be the Son of God, and yet he embezzled funds and later betrayed Christ. About him Christ said it had been better that he had not been born.
    So, knowing that he had faith, will he still be saved, even considering Christ’s condemnation of him?
    Or consider David, a man of the greatest faith. And yet he lusted after a woman that was not his, committed adultery and then murder to cover it up. His faith did not manifest the good works, but he still had faith. So is he saved?
    Consider Cain who talked with God, and yet bargained with Satan and became the first murderer, of whom it is said he is perdition, a name also given to Satan. He knew God, believed that he was God; so is he saved?
    Also, consider what James says. “Ye believe in one God. Ye do well. The Devils also believe and tremble.”
    So, if faith is all that is needed, are the devils saved?

    See what I mean? I agree that faith frequently produces the good works, but the Bible is full of evidence that proves that it is not guaranteed. As such, what is the point.

    A better question to ask is this: Suppose a man a true faith were to ask you what the purpose of doing good was, what you tell him. Think of David, who the Bible tells us was of great faith. What answer would you give him as to why we do good works?

    ECHO

    Even in your doctrine our salvation is completely dependent on us.
    If I accept it, I am saved
    If I don’t accept it, I am not saved
    Conclusion, I am saved by my choice to accept.

  232. 234 Echo
    July 24, 2011 at 10:13 pm

    Shem, When a person trusts that in Jesus, all their sins have been forgiven, they are saved.

    We believe that David was saved, do you?

    Shem said: “Even in your doctrine our salvation is completely dependent on us.
    If I accept it, I am saved
    If I don’t accept it, I am not saved
    Conclusion, I am saved by my choice to accept.”

    If this is what you conclude, then you didn’t carefully read my post and think about what I said.

  233. 235 Kent
    July 25, 2011 at 10:08 am

    Shem said: “Even in your doctrine our salvation is completely dependent on us.
    If I accept it, I am saved
    If I don’t accept it, I am not saved
    Conclusion, I am saved by my choice to accept.”

    Shem, but if Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day wasn’t true, it wouldn’t matter if we accept it or not so it is all about what He did in our place, sinner’s who can never save ourselves and it is not about what we do.

    Below are passages from 1 Corithians 15 that show us what gives us our grace, unmerited favor that we can never earn. This is the gospel that we have been given and it says nothing about grace after all we can do.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 12-17

    1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

    12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins

  234. 236 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    “Shem, but if Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day wasn’t true, it wouldn’t matter if we accept it or not . . . ”

    This is not in question.

    “. . . so it is all about what He did in our place, . . .”

    So, then you are saying it doesn’t matter whether or not we accept? If it does matter that we accept, THEN it IS ALSO about our acceptance.

    ” . . . sinner’s who can never save ourselves . . . ”

    This is not in question.

    “. . . and it is not about what we do.”

    So, then you are saying it doesn’t matter whether or not we accept? If it does matter that we accept, THEN it IS ALSO about our acceptance.

  235. 237 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    “Below are passages from 1 Corithians 15 that show us what gives us our grace, unmerited favor that we can never earn. This is the gospel that we have been given and it says nothing about grace after all we can do.”

    Unfortunately for you, those verses don’t support this statement.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 12-17

    1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, WHICH ALSO YE HAVE RECEIVED, AND WHEREIN YE STAND;
    2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    So they HAD DONE and were still DOING something for their salvation.

    Oh, and by the way, the raising of Christ from the dead ISN’T in question, at least not by Latter-Day Saints.

    4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

  236. 238 Echo
    July 25, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Ralph said: “So, then you are saying it doesn’t matter whether or not we accept? If it does matter that we accept, THEN it IS ALSO about our acceptance.”

    We are accepting the fact that Jesus alone has already saved us.

    If you fall into unconsciousness and someone comes along and brings you back to consciousness, you naturally then open your eyes and accept the fact that this person was solely responsible for bringing you back to consciousness.

    Your acceptance of that fact is not what caused it to happen.

  237. 239 Echo
    July 25, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Ralph said: “1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, WHICH ALSO YE HAVE RECEIVED, AND WHEREIN YE STAND;
    2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    So they HAD DONE and were still DOING something for their salvation.”

    *****

    They aren’t doing something for their salvation…

    If I place a hat on your head, you have received that hat and all apart from doing anything.

  238. 240 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    What part of “AND WHEREIN YE STAND” don’t you understand. Standing requires effort.

  239. 241 Echo
    July 25, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    Ralph said: “What part of “AND WHEREIN YE STAND” don’t you understand. Standing requires effort.”

    Is your condescending remark here part of your effort to merit grace?

  240. 242 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    Echo said, “Is your condescending remark here part of your effort to merit grace?”

    Just preaching the truth to you, in love.

    Did you get it this time?

  241. 243 Echo
    July 25, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Condescension isn’t love.

    What are we “standing” in? We are standing in our salvation. We have been saved and we are standing in it.
    We aren’t making an “effort” to be saved. The effort comes in because we have been saved already.

  242. 244 shematwater
    July 25, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    ECHO

    I read your comment and understood it just fine.
    Question: Is there any choice that we have to consciously make in order to be saved?
    If the answer is yes, even if there is only one choice that has to be made, than our salvation is completely dependent on us making that choice.
    If the answer is no than we have no agency.

    Either way your doctrine doesn’t make sense.

    KENT

    If Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day wasn’t true, it wouldn’t matter if we did anything or not so it is all about what He did in our place, sinner’s who can never save ourselves and it is not about what we do.


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