13
Jul
11

Why witness to Mormons?

I recently listened to a man speaking about the importance of eating correctly and exercising regularly. He talked about how important this was – even for those in the audience who appeared quite physically fit.  For example, there was one young man who ran half marathons but who admitted he didn’t watch his diet that closely.  The speaker said that he too should take the talk to heart because the inside of his body might not be looking as good as the outside.

That is just an example of two things that were very evident.  1) The speaker took being in good health very seriously and 2) he was concerned for everybody in the room.  Some might not have bought into the extremely strong emphasis he put on correct eating and exercising, but nobody denied that he thought that these were very important issues.

What does this have to do with witnessing to Mormons?  Just like people have many different motivations for speaking on good health, so there are many different motivations for witnessing to Mormons.  I can only speak for myself.  The reason I witness to Mormons is because I believe that the teachings of Mormonism pose a grave, eternal danger to people – that Mormonism isn’t a path leading to life with heavenly Father but one that leads people to outer darkness.  I write this with the full realization that many don’t agree with me – that this infuriates many people.  But I don’t say that to upset people – I say that in spite of the fact that I know it will upset people.  I say that because I am totally convinced that people need to be warned.  In fact, I feel that if I didn’t do this, I would be unloving.  Not warning people about a danger you know is approaching is nothing less than criminal.  It was obvious that the above-mentioned speaker felt that way about physical health.  That is how I feel about spiritual health.

Again let me repeat that I know many of you don’t agree with my assessment of the dangers of Mormonism.  Disagreeing with my assessment is one thing.  But if this is what I truly believe – and I’m telling you this is what I truly believe – then at least respect my motivation.  But attributing wrong motives to me or calling my character into question don’t do that.  To be honest, I think that says more about the person making the comment than it does me.

Why do I witness to Mormons?  Because Mormonism, in many ways, states that people, to some degree, have to contribute to living with heavenly Father.  One example:  “The phrase ‘after all we can do’ teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fullness of the Lord’s grace and be made worthy to dwell with Him.” (True to the Faith, p. 77)   The Bible, however, teaches that it is all by God’s grace and that grace and works don’t mix.  “And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more works.”  (Romans 11:6)  To God – and God alone – be all praise and glory.

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271 Responses to “Why witness to Mormons?”


  1. 1 Peter
    July 13, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    The “saved after all we can do” phrase is not incosistent with the teachings of Christ. Christ taught that we must not only be obedient to the commandments in order to be saved but also to be willing to sacrifice all that we have. Consider his statement to the young rich man that he needed to keep the commandments and give all that he has to the poor, then he would receive salvation. Christ was very insistant that we need to keep the commandments. Members of the early Christian church lived communally and were commanded to give all that they had to the church. One couple died for not complying (see Acts 4:32 thru Acts 5:10).

    I think that the phrase “after all we can do” is consistant with the idea of sacrificing all (brothers, mothers, father, houses. etc.).

  2. 2 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    “Mormonism AND JESUS, in many ways, states that people, to some degree, have to contribute to living with heavenly Father.”

    There, fixed it for you.

    “The Bible, however, teaches that it is all by God’s grace and that grace and works don’t mix.”

    Actually that is your MISUNDERSTANDING of what the “Bible” teaches. Grace and righteous works go hand in hand. There is no mutual exclusive aspect to them.

    ““And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more works.” (Romans 11:6) ”

    I don’t know how many times this has to be explained to you guys and you either still don’t get it or you just want to continue to misrepresent it.

    We are saved by Grace PERIOD! We can NOT save ourselves by our own works. It is IMPOSSIBLE for righteous works (or any other kind) to save us. And for you to express or imply that we believe (know or teach) otherwise is WRONG!!

    Your problem is that JESUS taught that obedience was necessary for eternal life.

    Matt. 19: . . . : but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So then, it is rather clear that Christ doesn’t extend His saving grace to the indolent “believers”, but rather to the obedient believers. Even Paul in ROMANS taught;

    Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    These words of PAUL in ROMANS clearly and plainly contradict YOUR misunderstanding of other parts of ROMANS. How long before you guys will take the blinders off and see the obvious?

  3. 3 markcares
    July 13, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Ralph:
    Where in this post did I ever mention salvation? I talked about living with heavenly Father. Isn’t that eternal life in Mormonism? “Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families.” (True to the Faith, p. 52) Please, before you respond so hastily, carefully read what is written.
    The rest of your comment does address the issue at hand. Jesus taught that eternal life came through faith and is not something that lies in the future, but in the present! “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not pass into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24) Note the present tenses: “hath” and “is passed’.
    I give all the credit for my living eternally with Heavenly Father to what Jesus has done for me. And because he did it all, I can be confident that that is where I will spend eternity. To Jesus, not me, be the glory.
    By the way, isn’t it interesting that Peter in his comment talked about his obedience and sacrifice in the context of being saved? Which of your two responses is correct?

  4. 4 markcares
    July 13, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Hi Peter:
    Thanks for leaving a comment and especially the tone of your comment. I appreciate your tone.
    Here are the two problems I have with what you wrote.
    1) Please see Ralph’s comment after yours. How do you reconcile the two? Which is an accurate representation of Mormonism?
    2) I think the story of the young rich man is very instructive. Note that he asked Jesus what he had to do. If that is the criteria, namely, that we have to do something, Jesus says you have to do it all. You have to keep all the commandments. But is that a criteria that anybody can keep? Keeping all the commandments means never once breaking one of them. It’s not building ourselves up to that – if so, I haven’t keep all the commandments. Peter, is that something you can do?
    I can’t. That is why I am so thankful Jesus came as my substitute and did it all for me. I know stand before God perfect and righteous because he is my righteousness and his blood has washed away all my sins.

  5. 5 RLO
    July 13, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    As I see it Ralph, it doesn’t seem to be so much a question of whether or not those of your faith and those of our faith do works, because, and I hope you would agree, both do works. Rather it is a question of what relationship those works play to salvation. Yes, you say you are saved by grace. But if I understand you correctly by the bible passages you have chosen to reference, for those of your faith, salvation is contingent upon the performance of works. But for those of our faith, our ability to even perform works is contingent upon our first being saved. It’s not a question of whether works are present or absent. They are present in those of your faith, and they are present in those of our faith. So to me, it seems as though those of your faith do works because of a belief that works are a prerequisite to your being saved. Whereas those of my faith do works because we are already saved. In other words, it appears as if for those of your faith, works precede salvation. Whereas for those of our faith, works follow salvation.

    I’m not asking you if you agree with our position. I acknowledge that you don’t. I’m only asking you if you understand the difference between our position and your position.

  6. 6 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    I was talking to an “evangelical” so I was using the “evangelical” definition of “saved”, which I understand to be the same as the “evangelical” definition of “eternal life”.

    Since you take umbrage with my using the word saved, I will rewrite portions of the post below.

    We receive eternal life by Grace PERIOD! We can NOT get it ourselves by our own works. It is IMPOSSIBLE for righteous works (or any other kind) to earn us eternal life. And for you to express or imply that we believe (know or teach) otherwise is WRONG!!

    Your problem is that JESUS taught that obedience was necessary for eternal life.

    Matt. 19: . . . : but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So then, it is rather clear that Christ doesn’t extend His saving (to eternal life) grace to the indolent “believers”, but rather to the obedient believers. Even Paul in ROMANS taught;

    Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    These words of PAUL in ROMANS clearly and plainly contradict YOUR misunderstanding of other parts of ROMANS. How long before you guys will take the blinders off and see the obvious?

  7. 7 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    “Jesus taught that eternal life came through faith and is not something that lies in the future, but in the present! “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not pass into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24) Note the present tenses: “hath” and “is passed’.”

    Jesus also clearly taught that it comes at a future time AFTER DEATH.

    Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Matt. 25:46 And these SHALL GO away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and IN THE WORLD TO COME eternal life.

    John 5:29 And SHALL COME FORTH; they that have DONE GOOD, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Here Paul describes it as a FUTURE event.

    Rom. 2:7 To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    Rom. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we SHALL BE saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we SHALL BE saved by his life.

    Titus 1:2 In HOPE OF eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the HOPE OF eternal life.

    Here James describes it as a FUTURE event.

    James 1:12 Blessed is the man that ENDURETH temptation: for when he is tried, he SHALL receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    Here John describes it as a FUTURE event.

    1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also SHALL CONTINUE in the Son, and in the Father.
    25 And this is THE PROMISE that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

  8. 8 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 7:47 pm

    Since there is some quibbling of the words being used, let me correct your statement.

    “But if I understand you correctly by the bible passages you have chosen to reference, for those WHO BELIEVE THE WORD OF JESUS, ETERNAL LIFE is contingent upon the performance of RIGHTEOUS works.”

    Just giving the words of Jesus a higher priority over all others.

    Jesus taught,

    Matt. 19: . . . : but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

  9. 9 Peter
    July 13, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    Thanks for responding Markcares,

    Mormons do not believe that we must be perfect in this life. Mormons are striving to be faithful and more Christlike. We show our faith in Christ through Repentance (a general turning from a life of sin to following Christ). As we sacrifce our worldliness and give ourselves as a living sacrifice to God, our faith becomes unshakeable and we can experience spiritual gifts and salvation. As long as we are on the path that leads to this, God will forgive us for our shortcomings. Our covenant relationship with Christ is like a marriage where the church (the bride) strives to be obedient and faithful to Christ (the groom). As the husband, Christ protects and saves us even though we are not perfect. We are striving to get to the point where we are willing to give all. However, God realizes that we as a church still need to grow, so unlike the primitive church who were commanded to give all their wealth to the church (see Acts 4:32 thru Acts 5:10), we are only required to live the lesser law of tithing.

  10. 10 Anne McKee
    July 13, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Ralph and Peter,

    I think you guys ROCK!! Keep up the good work!!

    Mark Cares,

    I still think your ministry is a huge waste of time! But thanks for clarifying your position. You know that you COULD be in BIG trouble some day! just sayin’…….

    ~Anne

  11. 11 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 8:38 pm

    Ralph,

    1) Which statement below best describes your beliefs as to how you will recieve eternal life (LDS definition)

    A) Works alone
    B) Grace alone
    C) Works(all you can do) plus Grace at the same time. (Works plus Grace)
    D) Works(all you can do) then Grace to make up the difference
    E) Works(all you can do) first, then 100% grace alone
    F) other-please explain

    2) Define Eternal life (LDS definition)

  12. 12 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Echo asked, “Which statement below BEST describes your beliefs as to how you will receive eternal life (LDS definition).”

    You guys really get stuck on the word grace. Grace is a word that (from my search) didn’t ever escape Jesus’ lips.

    It is rather obvious that you haven’t actually read the Book of Mormon. You guys just like to pull quotes out of context to support your strawman building activities.

    2 Nephi 31:5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
    6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
    7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
    8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
    9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
    10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
    11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
    12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
    13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
    14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
    15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
    16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
    17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
    18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
    19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
    20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

    Short answer,

    D&C 14: 7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

    2) Define Eternal life (LDS definition)

    It is the same as found in the Bible.
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

  13. 13 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    perfect. Now can you answer my questions?

  14. 14 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    See post #12 for the answer to your questions.

  15. 15 markcares
    July 13, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    Peter:
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The following is to show you where I am coming from. I take seriously what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Jesus said “be”. That means right now. That’s very sobering to me. It gets even worse because the standard he sets is heavenly Father himself! Not as perfect as a fellow human – but as perfect as Father is – right now! Neither do I see any place where Jesus weakens this to try to be perfect or work on being perfect. “Be perfect” is what Jesus said. (As an aside, the JST says “Ye are therefore commanded to be perfect.”)
    I don’t know about you, but there is no way that I can come close to that. That is also what the Bible says. It says we all have fallen far short. But now comes God’s solution. Jesus took all our sins on himself and paid the full price for them. Because of that, and in his blood, I can now meet God’s standard of perfection. “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Heb. 10:14). But that is the only way I can meet God’s standard of perfection. If I add even the smallest portion of my work all I do is make the whole thing imperfect because all I can add is imperfection. That is why Jesus is the only way.
    God doesn’t lower his standards. They remain high – perfection. But he gave us a Substitute, his Son, to meet that standard for us. That is God’s solution.

  16. 16 markcares
    July 13, 2011 at 9:38 pm

    Anne,
    I’m just curious. What big trouble do you see for me? According to Mormonism the telestial kingdom is still much better than life here on earth. According to official Mormon teaching, I don’t think I qualify for outer darkness.

  17. 17 Ralph Peterson
    July 13, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    “I don’t know about you, but there is no way that I can come close to that.”

    Jesus said, “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”

  18. 18 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    I am so thankful that I have already been saved by grace Not only BEFORE I do all I can do but totally apart from doing all I can do. That’s why I desire to do all I can do.

    Praise Jesus!

  19. 19 RLO
    July 13, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Have you noticed that when someone posts mid-thread it changes the post numbers of all subsequent posts? So telling someone to See a previous post number isn’t really helpful.

  20. 20 shematwater
    July 13, 2011 at 10:26 pm

    MARK

    I do not want to be rude, but I will tell you the perception I get from all such blogs that I have visited.

    Every person who has a blog that id dedicated to the destruction of the LDS church says the same things you do. It is out of love that you are warning of a grave danger to our soles.
    You use the analogy of the man speaking on health and fitness. I can’t help but wonder something. Did this man ask a person “what do you eat?” and then spend the next fifteen minutes lecturing them on how bad such food it? Did he ask another how much they exercise and then spend fifteen minutes telling them how lazy they are?
    I would venture to say that he didn’t, for such an approach would have convinced nobody of his sincerity or love. Such an approach is not conducive to these qualities. No matter how many times he declared he was doing it in love few people would have believed it.

    Whenever I read articles in blogs of this nature this is what I see. I great profession of love and a desire to warn people away from the dangers of Mormonism; and yet it is most commonly backed by lectures and misconceptions concerning our doctrine, giving no real substance as to what to replace it with. The profession of love and concern is lost in condescension.

    As to the story of the rich man that Peter mentioned, I would point out that Christ said he only had one thing left. He was very near to that perfection, and needed only to give up his worldly wealthy and join the ministry. If he had been willing to do that he would have fulfilled the criteria for Eternal Life.

    And by the way, Salvation in the LDS church is most frequently used as synonymous with Eternal Life, for anything less is not a full salvation, but only a partial.

  21. 21 Anne McKee
    July 13, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    Mark,

    Well, mostly my comment was made tongue in cheek……BUT, have you EVER humbled yourself to really study the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by our Church? You have obviously studied it….but from my observation it is with the desire to prove it all wrong! You MUST have felt the Spirit at SOME point testify to you that this might be something!!! But, you have (obviously) pushed it away. I would say that if you dealt with the members of the LDS church face to face…and I am talking about active, knowledgeable members,( not ex-members that never really had their foot in the door, or ex-members with an ax to grind) you would SEE the difference in their countenance. You would SEE the proof that the Gospel is true.

    But, and this is a big “but”, you are too proud to REALLY “see” the truth. Now, remember the cancer/Dr. theory that has been touted here, this is tough medicine: YOU need the Gospel!

    You need to humble yourself and listen to the truth! IF you dabble in the LDS scriptures, if you study our leader’s talks, etc, then YOU have enough information to understand the gospel and you will be held responsible for your efforts to tear down the faith of LDS members!! And, just so you know, the telestial kingdom isn’t that great of a place to be! No Jesus, No Heavenly Father (we capitalize both parts of His name) and No family connections. Just lots of trees and grass…..big whoop! I certainly don’t want to end up there!

    So, in short, Mark Cares……I am calling on you to look deeply into your soul and humble yourself!
    Listen to the missionaries! (and not just harass them….i know that is what you have done in the past) Really study with an open heart and mind. YOU might be surprised at what you find! WE DO have something special that YOU don’t know about!! The Spirit makes all the difference!

    good luck to you….I am even going to say a little prayer that you will have the courage to do this! It would mean giving up your job, your income and your very way of thinking….but I BELIEVE!!!!

    ~Anne

  22. 22 Anne McKee
    July 13, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    Shem,

    You, of course, are on the “Rock” list as well!

    ~Anne

  23. 23 Echo
    July 13, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    Shem saId: “You use the analogy of the man speaking on health and fitness. I can’t help but wonder something. Did this man ask a person “what do you eat?” and then spend the next fifteen minutes lecturing them on how bad such food it? Did he ask another how much they exercise and then spend fifteen minutes telling them how lazy they are?”

    It’s all in the person’s perception or in your case, faulty perception (I am saying this gently and in a freindly way).

    When you use words like: “Lecturing” or “telling them how lazy they are” you aren’t putting the best construction on what anyone is doing or saying.

    I encourage you to take words like Mark said:

    “he was concerned”

    “people need to be warned. In fact, I feel that if I didn’t do this, I would be unloving.”

    “Not warning people about a danger you know is approaching is nothing less than criminal”

    “It was obvious that the above-mentioned speaker felt that way about physical health. That is how I feel about spiritual health.”

    and your own words:

    “It is out of love that you are warning of a grave danger to our soles[sic].”

    And then revise these words you have written “Lecturing” or “telling them how lazy they are”
    so that they are in agreement and complete harmony with those other words Mark said and you yourself said.

    Give it a try and let us know what you come up with.

  24. 24 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 1:07 am

    Since we counting rocks….. You rock Mark!

    And keep up the good work of spreading the good news that turns those from slaves into sons.

  25. 25 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 2:04 am

    The reason I witness to Mormons is because:

    1) one doesn’t put a light under a basket

    2) Jesus offers the free gift ….which is to live with Heavenly Father …. without cost

    3) Unlike the regulars apologists to this blog ….
    ……. most Mormons are burdened by the demands to become perfect which Mormonism preaches and insists.

  26. July 14, 2011 at 2:45 am

    Do you know “most Mormons”? That is truly amazing! jbr…do you really even understand what becoming “perfect” means in all of this? Perfect = Completed. Heavenly Father wants us to become like Him. You already know the scriptures tell us this. We will not achieve this now, nor could we even try if we didn’t have faith in the Atonement. It is obeying His will for us that lets us have that faith to progress and become like Him. Most Mormons, and I will bet I know plenty more than you do, do not feel burdened by this concept. You prey on those who don’t understand.

  27. 27 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 3:49 am

    You Rock jbr!… because of your love for Jesus and your love for Mormons!

    The reason I witness to Mormons is because:

    1) Jesus loves me and I love Jesus

    2) I love Mormons. Mormons Rock!

    3) Mormonism misleads and deceives very sincere and God fearing Mormons blindly down the path to Hell and they don’t know it.

    4) They don’t know that physical death is when their eternal destiny (Heaven or Hell) is permanently settled and unchangeable for all eternity.

    ……which causes me a lot of fear for their sakes because I don’t want to see them have to face the sobering eye opening shock that is going to leave them with only terror and unimaginable regret when they find out that they don’t have more time after they die to change destiny’s.

    But also I have fear for their sakes because of the unimaginable regret they will have when they come to realize, the moment they die, that they didn’t have any faith at all in the One true Jesus. And when they find out the reason they didn’t have faith in the one true Jesus was because Mormonism drew them away from Jesus by poisoning their minds and hearts against Christians. Christians whom Jesus sent to them again and again in order to rescue them from the deceptive doctrines of Mormonism. But also when they realize that because of Mormonism and how Mormonism so poisoned their minds and hearts, they realize that Mormonidm raised them is such a way that they refused to listen to anything these Christians had to say.

    It is this fear that I have that drives me so hard and takes up so much of my personal time in talking to Mormons. I go at it hard and give most of my personal time to Mormons BECAUSE I do NOT want to see any of these terrible things happen to Mormons!

    4) Nothing would be more wonderful than spending eternity with Mormons!

    5) I want Mormons to come to know and understand the amazing love of our Jesus

    6) I want Mormons to feel the PEACE of knowing with certainty that all their sins have already been forgiven.

    7) I want Mormons to KNOW, without a doubt, that they can HAVE certainty and security right now that they have eternal life with Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    8) I want Mormons to have a faith in Jesus that is so rock solid, NOTHING or NOONE can take that away from them

    9) I want to see sincere God-fearing Mormons be free from the fear that comes from sin, guilt, shame, feeling unworthy etc.

    10) There are so many other wonderful things I want to share with Mormons

  28. 28 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 4:37 am

    Echo,
    We are having one big rock party ….. you rock too !!

    Rock on!

  29. 29 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 4:52 am

    Yes isn’t amazing…I read from the Mormon-Blogs.com web site

    Where you the one who stated how terrible it was to judge somebody…….then for you to say:
    ……………..”You prey on those who don’t understand.” ……………………………………

    I have read many of your posts Kate, and then one thing you are very apt to do is not practice what you preach…. that the regulars of the Mormons who post here do a lot of judging.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Yes I do know what it means to “be” perfect. ………… FYI : I am perfect.
    and yes I do know that most Mormons are attempting to become perfect.

  30. 30 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 5:06 am

    jbr said: “Yes I do know what it means to “be” perfect. ………… FYI : I am perfect.”

    Amen!

  31. July 14, 2011 at 5:14 am

    jbr:

    “Where you the one who stated how terrible it was to judge somebody…….then for you to say:
    ……………..”You prey on those who don’t understand.” ……………………………………”

    I call it like I see it…I am not judging your soul…not telling you that because of your faith in Christ you are going to hell, not saying that if I don’t save you from what you believe you will go to hell. I am just stating what you guys are doing with your ministry in the name of Christ, who I know without a doubt is sad that you would spend all your extra time destroying another person’s faith in Christ, is preying on those who don’t fully understand.

    I do not wish to destroy your faith, but to strengthen it.

  32. 32 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 5:24 am

    jbr said: “Yes I do know what it means to “be” perfect. ………… FYI : I am perfect.”

    Amen!

  33. 33 Kent
    July 14, 2011 at 9:59 am

    The reason I come here is because Mormons are following a different Jesus and because of this, among other things, it means they are treading on very dangerous ground.

    Jesus is not merely our brother and He is not, never was, and never will be Satan’s brother who chose good instead of the evil His brother Satan chose (that is who a mormon missonary told me who Jesus is).

    Jesus is God Almighty who came to earth as a perfect man (Emanuel, God with us) to be the perfect sacrfice in our place, sinners who can never ever save ourselves, and He is the creator and the not the creation like we and even Satan are.

    The following passages tell us who Jesus is. In John 1 we see that Jesus (The Word) is God and that everything that was created was created by Him and in John 8:58 we see that Jesus called Himself God when He referred to Himself as I AM which is the same name God called Himself in Exodus 3:14 when Moses asked Him who shall he tell the people it is who sent him. That is why the Jewish leadership of the time He walked on this earth had Him killed because He said He is God as they would have not have had Him killed if He merely said that He was their brother.

    Again, also, Jesus never was and never will be Satan’s brother.

    John 1:1-3

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

    3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Exodus 3:13-14

    13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

    14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    Any Mormons here, can you show me anywhere in the Bible how Jesus is merely our elder brother and is the brother of Satan?

  34. 34 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Jesus revealed to Paul in Romans 3:28 …. “Therefore we conclude” ………what?

    Worthiness will be based by God standards….. no one else.
    ….. no committee
    ….. no bishop
    ….. no panel
    ….. no eternal marriage (Jesus said so)

    Perfection will be decreed based on current conditions …. is perfect or is not perfect
    …… not on balance scale
    …… a scale that is individualized to each person’s efforts

    Forgiveness is offered without cost or condition
    ……… not that Heavenly Father will do it eventually

    After everything Jesus revealed we are to conclude what……. Romans 3:28.
    That is the difference between the Jesus of Mormonism vs the Jesus of the Bible.

  35. 35 jbr
    July 14, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Heber J Grant:
    —-” If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.” —–

    _________________________________________________________

    –> No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. <—

    Jesus commanded "Be ye therefore perfect, even AS your Father IS perfect"
    Why Mormons….are you NOT able to keep this command being that God gave you the power to do so?

    __________________________________________________________

    If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you ………….Jesus revealed it to Paul in the Bible.

    Read Romans 3:28
    Read Hebrews 10:14

  36. 36 Kent
    July 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Ironic that I also cannot find anything in the Book of Mormon that says Jesus is our elder brother and the brother of Satan either. One would think that the most correct book on earth, called so by Joseph Smith and said to contain the fullness of the gospel in the introduction of the BOM, would contain these important truths.

    From the Introduction of the Book of Mormon copyright 1981:

    “The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.”

    I find it interesting that the introduction to the Book of Mormon in more recent additions has been changed to take out the part that says the Bible also contains the fullness of the gospel but regardless, if the earlier statement that the Bible contains the fullness of the gospel is true, then why is the Book of Mormon and any other additional scripture even needed?

    Kate, we are not trying to destroy anyone’s faith as true faith cannot be destroyed but instead we are doing what the Bible says to do which is to prove all things and hold on to what is good.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

  37. 37 Anne McKee
    July 14, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    JBR:

    We CAN keep that commandment! Where do you come up with the notion that we struggle with this? It is simply not true! We have faith that we can BECOME like God someday!! WE do NOT struggle with perfection!

    You quoted this:

    :”For by one offering he had perfected for ever them THAT ARE SANCTIFIED”.

    SANCTIFICATION requires some effort!! You must REPENT! to become purified….(purified=sanctified)

    We believe this too: “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM”.

    Effort is required! the scriptures are FULL of ACTION words!! do, believe, obey, come, follow, look! and many, many more. If salvation was SO easy, then WHY did the Savior and the Apostles have to work so hard at keeping the people on the “straight and narrow” path? Because it requires EFFORT!!!! AND then we have to ENDURE TO THE END! We must get on the straight path…..not the broad path, the STRAIGHT path. We have to bypass all the little side roads, bypass the turn-offs! That means we have to live our lives in a certain way.

    Our Gospel teaches us to pattern our lives after the life of the Savior. We repent daily. We keep the commandments and work hard at being a Saint. It is SO WORTH IT! It is hard, yes, but it would be so much harder to be a bum! I find the commandments a relief! I don’t have to make choices daily about what I will do with my free time: for instance: drinking alcohol (a supreme waste of time and money) is not an option for me! Cheating on my husband, dressing like a tramp, spending my money on worldly things are not temptations to me! Because I have made ONE choice to follow the Savior, all these other choices don’t even come up. They are not on my radar!

    Repentance is not meant to be a one time event! It is meant to sanctify us and help us be the kind of people that can dwell with God. Why would he want a big bunch of losers living in heaven. People that never
    took the time or effort to improve themselves! Jesus Christ completed the Atonement so that IF we put forth the effort, we can take advantage of HIS GREAT SACRIFICE!! But we MUST put forth the effort. The Bible is FULL of examples of ACTION words.

    The danger of your way of thinking is this: you may sit back, fat and happy (I don’t know what you look like, that is just a figure of speech) and NOT repent, not put forth ANY effort and HOPE that the Lord’s work covers you!
    But the Bible is CLEAR! We must repent (effort), we must have faith (effort), we must keep the commandments (effort), we must love others (effort), we must stay on the path (effort) and THEN we must endure to the end (effort). And then, after ALL that we can do, The Savior of all mankind is there to help us over the last hurdle….as well, of course, as all the help he gives us daily.

    I am SO grateful for the restoration of the Restoration of the Gospel to the earth! Our Savior’s love for us knows NO bounds!

    We, right this very minute, have a living prophet of God on the earth!! What a marvelous blessing! What a privilege to be on the earth at this time!

    JBR, do not let your time here be wasted! Listen to the Gospel with an open heart! You are here on this earth at this time for a reason! wow…it would be great if you could use your zeal and your love for Jesus in the true church and kingdom!!

    best wishes,
    Anne

  38. 38 Kent
    July 14, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    JBR, I posted the scriptures you quoted about how to be saved and I also included the passage from Acts 16 where the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he needed to do to be saved and how he was told the word, he and all his family believed the word, and it was then that they were immdieately baptized.

    By the way, when we say saved we mean that we will be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever when we die and this fact is assured. We don’t mean we are just given the gift to live in the after life and that we are merely given the chance that someday that we may be with Him for eternity.

    Romans 3:28

    28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Hebrews 10:14

    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Acts 16:30-34

    30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

  39. 39 Kent
    July 14, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    Anne said, “The danger of your way of thinking is this: you may sit back, fat and happy (I don’t know what you look like, that is just a figure of speech) and NOT repent, not put forth ANY effort and HOPE that the Lord’s work covers you!
    But the Bible is CLEAR! We must repent (effort), we must have faith (effort), we must keep the commandments (effort), we must love others (effort), we must stay on the path (effort) and THEN we must endure to the end (effort). And then, after ALL that we can do, The Savior of all mankind is there to help us over the last hurdle….as well, of course, as all the help he gives us daily.”

    That is the difference in our beliefs, I know I am already there as he has already taken me over all of the hurdles by what He did on the cross in my place, a sinner who cannot ever save myself no matter what I do and no this doesn’t give me license to sin just because I am assured of this fact. We do good works because we are saved but not to become saved.

  40. 40 Kent
    July 14, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    Add on to my last post, we also believe that if it is in any way about what we do instead of what He already did on the cross, than we have to live up to the commandments 100 percent of the time and that we don’t get another chance, no matter how sincere we are, to do so after we leave this earth.

    So we either trust and believe in what Jesus did on the cross completely or we are bound by the law completely.

    Yes, God wants us to live a certain way but can we ever live up to law completely? No! But the the good news, the Gospel, is that Jesus provided the solution 2000 years ago and He has already carried us over the last hurdle if we just trust in what He did and not in what we do because anything else is not grace but is works.

  41. 41 RLO
    July 14, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    Anne said: “The scriptures are FULL of ACTION words!””

    And so they are. Has anyone of our faith ever denied such? In our faith, our ability to do, believe, obey, come, follow, or look are not the cause of God showing us his favor. But rather, God showing us his favor is the cause of our ability to do, to believe, to obey, to come, to follow to look.

    Anne said: “Effort is required!”

    In your theology, your efforts are “required.”
    In our theology, our efforts are “evidence” of God’s favor.

  42. 42 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    “If you want to know how to be SAVED, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God” Heber J Grant (LDS)

    I haven’t met a Mormon on this blog yet that keeps the commandments or even comes close. That only leads me to conclude that Mormons and Christians must either have a different idea of what the commandments are or that Mormons are blind to their own sins.

    Some of the SINS off the top of my head…

    Pride
    Condescension
    Rudeness
    Unkind words
    Unloving
    The sin of judging the motives of people’s hearts without facts
    Closed ears
    Boastful
    Arrogance
    Belittling
    Putting words in a person’s mouth they didn’t say
    Attributing intensions to someone that are false-especially evil intentions
    Setting up traps to then make someone look bad
    Name calling
    Anger
    Impatient
    False Accusations
    Unforgiving
    Being content in ignorance
    Revenge
    Hatred
    Unrepentant
    Not leading your Mormon brothers and sisters to repentance for their sins.
    Condemnation without investigation
    Making up lie’s
    Joking at a person’s expense-ridicule
    Condemnation based on false information or no information
    Examining what is said, listening
    Being unwilling to hear how your beliefs might be wrong
    Taking the time to read someone’s post and attempting to understand it before responding.
    Condemnation of others based on feelings rather than facts
    False testimony against your neighbor
    keeps records of wrongs based on feelings rather than facts
    contentious (yes! Mormons are very contentious, they always trying to stir up trouble) (discussing differences in doctrine is NOT contentious, attacking people for it is very contentious! )
    Attacking people themselves rather than attacking doctrine that harms people
    uncivil

    etc. etc.

    When we FAIL to love our neighbor (all of the sins above are a failure to love our neighbor) we have broken God’s ENTIRE law! Every failure at loving our neighbor is a failure also to love God because we show our love for God by loving our neighbor. And ALL the commandments are summed up in this…”love your neighbor” One sin from the above list, and you have failed to obey “ALL” of the commandments. You are a law breaker.

    “Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God”

    Mormons, you are not pleasing God. It is impossible for you.

    Do you understand this? This is serious business here. Do you understand the seriousness of all of these sins? Every unrepentant SIN is deserving of ONLY God’s WRATH.

    It is deadly serious…

    James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, SINS.”

    Luke 6:33 “And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that.”

    Mathew 12:36 “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for EVERY CARELESS WORD they have spoken.”

    Mathew 12:37 “For by your words you will be acquitted, AND BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED”

    Sins of commission (sins we commit) results in Condemnation to an eternity in Hell.

    We are not only condemned to Hell for every careless word we have spoken,(sins of commission-sins we commit) but scripture paints a fearful picture of what happens to those who commit sins of omission (failing to do something good) Those who fail to do the good they ought to do will spend eternity with the devil in the everlasting fire….

    Mathew 25:41-46 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

    The Mormons here fail miserably to do the good they ought to do. (Christians do too but we don’t claim that we are saved by obeying all the commandments.)

    I am not saying that the Christians here never sin. But we don’t make the boastful claim of…

    “We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment.” Heber J Grant (LDS)

    No, we beat our breasts and say: “God have mercy on me a sinner!”

    Luke 18:9-14 “ To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

    The LDS exalt themselves, Christians humble themselves

    To be honest, a statement like:

    “We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment.” Heber J Grant (LDS)

    And

    “If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God.” Heber J Grant (LDS)

    are what leads sincere God-fearing Mormons into despair. And it is those Mormons who are the sincere God-fearing Mormons that we want to reach out to with the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus. We are looking to reach out to the Mormon tax collector’s from the parable who have come to realize that “all they can do” is beat their breast and plead for God’s mercy.

    For those Mormons, we have this message…

    In Christ, we are perfect.

    Like JBR said: “I AM perfect”

    That’s not a joke. That is the truth. JBR wasn’t making a joke, or being smart mouthed or anything else, he was telling the truth.

    That is the sum total of our gospel message right there. “In Christ, I am perfect.” Not because of what I have done or will do, but because of all that Christ has done for me and for you. He has showered us with that much mercy and forgiveness. Read the parable. The one who beat his breast and pleaded for Mercy was the one that went home justified before God. The other one, the one who worked his way up to heaven through obedience didn’t. That’s a fact. And that is what Mormonism is in a nutshell. That is made clear by the LDS words: “If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God.”

    We aren’t looking to reach out to Mormons who think they are doing a pretty good job of keeping the commandments or who believe they can keep all the commandments. Their pride blinds them. They cannot see their own sins. They freely and openly commit sins. They are the Pharisees in the parable. It’s obvious to us they aren’t doing a good job at all and they are so blind to their own sins. While God’s mercy is for them too, they refuse to listen and because of that, they can never be saved. Some of those Pharisee types, I suspect, are here in the blog now. Those types of Mormons don’t fear God or fear his wrath over ALL sins, including the sins I listed above. (Of course we have Christians that aren’t God fearing either…just saying)

  43. 43 Echo
    July 14, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    And it’s the Mormon Pharisees here in this blog that will raise outrage against what I am saying here. They will come back with statements like: “You don’t know what we believe!” etc. These same people would rather condemn us than take the time, love and patience required to answer our questions, for as long as it takes, until we understand what our supposed “misunderstandings of LDS doctrine” are. They cannot hold us accountable for getting LDS doctrine wrong UNLESS, they do these things and they do them with love. And until they too are ready and willing to listen to all that we have to say and to try and understand what we are saying in the event we see something in LDS doctrine that they don’t.

    Don’t be fooled by that.

    Their statements are all hogwash. Those Pharisees can’t “Hear” what we are saying. They don’t take the time to listen carefully. They don’t take the time to try and understand what WE see, the deception we see in Mormonism that they themselves can’t see. They don’t take the time to lovingly instruct us.

    Don’t be swayed by their many sins. That only poisons your minds against the truth. Be swayed by the truth found in the scripture alone.

    (Christianity has Pharisees too, …. Just saying…. Sometimes I act like one of them, though not intentionally. And when I catch myself or someone catches me, I want to repent. Generally real Pharisees don’t repent. I am a sinner who needs God’s mercy just like anyone else)

  44. 44 jbr
    July 15, 2011 at 12:38 am

    Anne
    Thanks for the kind reply.
    You ask:
    _____________________________________________________________

    Where do you come up with the notion that we struggle with this? (perfection)
    ________________________________________________________________

    A: Your answer ….. we can BECOME like God someday!!

    Jesus didn’t say BEcome (future tense).
    Jesus revealed BE perfect. (present tense) ……. not the same as become
    .
    .
    Santicfied means to make holy.
    Jesus of the Bible made us holy as he is our subsitute
    Jesus of Mormonism is an example for you to make yourself holy

    It would be great if you have Jesus as your subsitute thus beening seen as perfect by God.
    I would encourage you to read the Bible only. Jesus revealed the plan.

    Take care
    JBR

  45. July 15, 2011 at 12:45 am

    Honestly, this is what we are saying, “We must strive always to keep the commandments, realizing that because of the Atonement, repentance is possible for when we fail. We are not perfect without Christ, but can become perfected in Him and because OF Him.”

    this is what I hear you saying, “Christ said to keep His commandments, but He only said that to show us that we can’t possibly keep them. So He does not want us to really keep them, He wants us to know that because He died, no matter what you do, if you claim Jesus as your Savior, you are forgiven….even though He asks for repentance, but repentance doesn’t mean much since we are not expected to keep His commandments, especially the one that talks about judging others and removing the mote in your own eye before insisting upon pointing out the speck in someone else’s eye…this is all too confusing….

  46. 46 Anne McKee
    July 15, 2011 at 1:16 am

    I went to work today without my glasses. I NEED my glasses to see! It was a HUGE inconvenience and I missed them dearly.

    I got home and checked the blog. I read all the confusing, sometimes semi-nasty (all the sins Mormons commit) comments and I realized something profound! All you anti-Mormon people DO NOT HAVE YOUR GLASSES ON!

    Baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have something you don’t have. We have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Now, you probably think I am being boastful (do I know you, or what? :), but it is a cold, hard fact. I would like to compare that to my glasses story above. A little parable, if you will!

    We seem to have a different vocabulary, and a 180 degree different understanding about the same scriptures. WE HAVE OUR GLASSES on! You do not have the benefit of “glasses”, so you see very little of what we see!
    It is not because we are better, it is not because you are not as good as we are…..it is simply the fact that you have a handicap and CANNOT “see” what we see. The Holy Ghost bears witness of truth. If you do not have his influence, you can’t possibly discern the truth.

    Many of us have offered you insights. I believe we have been incredibly patient. Yet you still want to tell US what we believe. You quote our prophets with derision. You give more weight to YOUR scriptural passages from the Bible than to our choice of Bible passages. (Many, many passages in the Bible support our point of view). But YOU lack the vision to see past your prejudices. I haven’t seen ONE of you make a single concession that one of our points is correct. There are too many principles in the Bible that you have no answers for. But, guess what? We do! We have the restoration of the ORIGINAL CHURCH OF CHRIST! We have HIS priesthood! We have the saving ordinances!! We have it all! That is not bragging. It is a fact. I give all the Glory to God and thank Him daily for His Son and the Atonement! I depend on it! His promises are sure!

    Would you like a pair of glasses?? Then I would invite any of you to visit with a local LDS leader who could REALLY open your eyes to what we believe! What have you got to lose??

    ~Anne

  47. 47 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 1:19 am

    Kate, the LDS teaches that repentance means, among other things, that you aren’t forgiven for a sin until you overcome that sin.

    Do you realize that because of that, you will die unforgiven for some sins?

    On the other hand, we aren’t forgiven after we overcome our sins like the LDS is. we are forgiven before. We will die with certainty that all our sins have been forgiven. We have that certainty every day.

    Kate said: “We must strive always to keep the commandments, realizing that because of the Atonement, repentance is possible for when we fail. We are not perfect without Christ, but can become perfected in Him and because OF Him.”

    Yes, we strive to obey the commandments too, but to say: “If you want to know how to be SAVED, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God” Heber J Grant (LDS)…

    … who is “really” doing the saving? What is really saving you? You and your obedience to the commandments is what is saving you for the most part. And Grant confirms this: “WE are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. WE ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. “…”If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure”…”and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard”

    Granted you believe you can repent and be forgiven for every sin you overcome. But even in that, YOU are the one doing the saving of yourself as you overcome each of your sins. See what I mean?

    We don’t strive to obey the commandments “to be saved” like Grant says above. We strive to obey the commandments because JESUS ALREADY SAVED US. Jesus already forgave us. Jesus already made us perfect in him.

  48. July 15, 2011 at 1:29 am

    RLO,

    Remember when Moses was in the wilderness and the serpents were attacking the people? The cure for the fatal, poisonous bite was to LOOK at the staff being held aloft. That was too easy and many people died rather than LOOK! Well, that was a “type”. It was an example of our need to DO SOMETHING!! The people were required to LOOK! When they looked, they were saved. It is the same with us. We must ACT! We must DO SOMETHING FIRST! The blessings come AFTER we ACT!

    Parable after parable teach this same principle. We must be doers of the word, not hearers only!

    Straight is the gate and narrow the way! “Narrow” and “straight” are synonyms for conforming! The Apostles and the Savior himself taught this over and over.

    ~Anne

  49. 49 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 1:43 am

    Kate said: “this is what I hear you saying, “Christ said to keep His commandments, but He only said that to show us that we can’t possibly keep them. So He does not want us to really keep them, He wants us to know that because He died, no matter what you do, if you claim Jesus as your Savior, you are forgiven….even though He asks for repentance, but repentance doesn’t mean much since we are not expected to keep His commandments, especially the one that talks about judging others and removing the mote in your own eye before insisting upon pointing out the speck in someone else’s eye…this is all too confusing….”

    Here is what we are saying…

    The commandments of God show us that we don’t keep his commandments…

    Glatians 2:21 “if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God”

    Romans 3:20 “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious OF SIN.”

    BUT GOD “DOES” WANT US TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HE STILL WANTS US TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

    But he does not want us to obey the commandments to be saved. We can’t be saved that way because of our sins. So he saved us through mercy. Faith means believing Jesus already saved us. It means believing Jesus forgave us. It means believing Jesus says to you: “Kate is perfect” right now just the way you are. That’s what Jesus has done for you. And since you are perfect, you can know you have eternal life right now. That is how perfect Christ has made you. And all apart from anything you have done or will do. Now Christ has freed you from the slavery of this: “If you want to know how to be SAVED, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God”

    So instead of trying to earn Heavenly Father’s favor and approval enough to live with him some day. You now have certainty that you will live with Heavenly Father some day. That’s certain and secure. You already have his favor and approval because of all that Jesus did.

    And since God has given you this security and certainty that you will be with him some day (because he has made you his), he does lead his children to obey him. And he does discipline his wayward children, and he does lead his children to sorrow over sin and to desire to overcome their sins.

  50. 50 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 1:56 am

    Anne, tell me what it is that I believe about how you can spend eternity with Heavenly Father?

  51. 51 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 2:02 am

    Anne said: “There are too many principles in the Bible that you have no answers for. But, guess what? We do!”

    What is it we don’t have answers for?

  52. 52 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 2:04 am

    Anne said: “you probably think I am being boastful (do I know you, or what? :)”

    I would agree with you that You are NOT boasting when you are firm in your beliefs and say things like: “Baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have something you don’t have. We have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost” That’s not boasting in my opinion. You see, you don’t know me like you think you do so stop boasting that you do know me.

  53. 53 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 2:23 am

    Anne said in the “We are all Christians thread”

    “For example: I would NEVER hesitate to vote for a Christian like Sarah Palin (to me her Christian faith is a resume enhancer)……but I know darn good and well that the people contributing to this blog would NEVER vote for MItt Romney!!!!!!!
    Now, who is fair minded?”

    Look at this post of yours Anne. Filled with pride and condemnation towards us for some false fantasy you just made up in your mind about us that isn’t even true and then you make us look bad because of it.

    You insinuate that we are unfairminded by stating that you are fairminded, you pretend to KNOW who we would or would not vote for and then make us look bad because of it. And the fact of the matter is that both RLO and myself would vote for Romney over Palin. The fact of the matter is you have no clue who we would vote for because you didn’t ask before you falsely accused us.

    You base all your judgments on feelings rather than facts. Stick to the facts please. Your feelings have proven time and again to be wrong. You are sinning against God.

    Ask questions, get the facts before you judge us. You are guilty of sinfully judging us.

  54. 54 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 3:05 am

    Anne said: “You quote our prophets with derision”

    Anne can you please show me where we quoted your prophets with derision?
    \
    Thanks

  55. July 15, 2011 at 3:31 am

    Echo,

    I humbly beg your forgiveness! I personally know of many Christians and have seen them in the media that say they would NEVER vote for a Mormon. I am sorry that I grouped you in with that crowd. I am glad that you would consider voting for Romney. He is a good man.

    I am not sure how that false assumption is “sinning against God”. But, oh well.

    you made this statement:
    “Anne, tell me what it is that I believe about how you can spend eternity with Heavenly Father?”

    I am sorry but I don’t understand the question….could you restate it?

    As for the principles in the Bible:
    Baptism for the dead
    Temple worship
    baptism by immersion
    laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
    Priesthood authority/spiritual gifts/healings
    tithing
    Apostles
    Prophets
    to name a few.

    These things were present in the Original Church of Christ. WE have them today. They were restored to the earth by a loving Heavenly Father through the prophet Joseph Smith.

    I have never seen these things in the Christian Church and I have been around a good many years.

    ~Anne

    I hope you can except my apology!

  56. 56 Kent
    July 15, 2011 at 4:19 am

    I would also vote for Romney over Palin as he has more experience to be president than Palin has.

    Regarding Sarah Palin, I might have considered voting for her if she had finished out her term as governor of her state or if she had won the senate seat and got some more political seasoning but as it stands, I didn’t think she was a good pick to run for V.P. let alone president because of her lack of experience.

    So much for the idea that those of us who post here and challenge the Mormon church’s teaching would never consider voting for Romney.

  57. 57 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 4:32 am

    Anne said: “I humbly beg your forgiveness! I personally know of many Christians and have seen them in the media that say they would NEVER vote for a Mormon. I am sorry that I grouped you in with that crowd. I am glad that you would consider voting for Romney. He is a good man. I am not sure how that false assumption is “sinning against God”. But, oh well. ”

    Of course you are forgiven Anne. You are always forgiven here.

    Allow me to explain how a false assumption is “sinning against God” if I may…

    Making assumptions about others without the facts is a sin against God because our assumptions about people can be wrong and often are wrong. It wouldn’t be a sin to make a positive assumption about someone because nobody is harmed in any way. But making a false and negative assumption about someone can potentially harm or hurt people and the reputation of people as well. We can make judgments that are not considered “sinful” but they need to be based on facts (facts are gained by asking questions, listening to what is said, etc) before making a judgment. Judgments should never be made on feelings.(feelings can often be wrong) Hope that helps.

    Anne said: I am sorry but I don’t understand the question….could you restate it?

    Absolutely. Sorry for not wording that too well. My question sounds kinda weird to me too. :)

    Anne, as you know, those of my faith have a different understanding from you on how it is that we can spend eternity with Heavenly Father. If someone were to ask you to compare and contrast the two views, how would you do that? I ask this because I’m interested in knowing what your understanding is of our viewpoint.

    Anne said:

    ” As for the principles in the Bible:
    Baptism for the dead
    Temple worship
    baptism by immersion
    laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
    Priesthood authority/spiritual gifts/healings
    tithing
    Apostles
    Prophets”

    We do have the answers for all of the things you have listed. If you ever want to know what we believe about any of those things, feel free to ask.

  58. 58 Kent
    July 15, 2011 at 6:20 am

    I think Anne may have had the mistaken notion that we have an agenda to just attack everything Mormon and while we will not compromise what we hold true, we are not out to get Mormons.

    I would like to direct you to another site where I have posted a lot of the same challenges to the Mormon religion that I have presented here but in this one instance of late I have been supporting something that both I and Mormons would support and that is opposition to the gay lifestyle, that came up as a side issue to some posts about whether Mormons get their own planets after they die.

    All I did was quote scripture that showed the gay lifestyle is a sinful lifestyle and notice how even though all I did was present the scripture that backed up my belief and I then left it to the readers of that blog to make up their own minds about whether what the Bible said about the subject is true or not, notice how hateful the people are towards me which I don’t respond to. The part I am talking about is towards the end of the comments

    Here is the link to that other blog.

    http://www.mormondna.org/mormon-beliefs/mormons-planet-die.html#comments

    Notice how even a Mormon who posted there recently attacked me even though he or she, you would think, would support what I had to say about homosexuality being sinful.

    I think sometimes the Mormons here may sometimes think that we are being hateful, just like the pro gay posters on the other blog, when we quote the Bible to back up our views regarding things such as salvation, who Jesus is, etc but in fact we are not being hateful just presenting our point of view.

  59. 59 Kent
    July 15, 2011 at 6:28 am

    Oh, on the other blog I did defend the point that there is such a thing as absolute truth. that everyone can’t be right just because it seems to work for them and regarding especially the gay issue, one would think Mormons would agree with me on this one point.

  60. 60 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 7:20 am

    Anne said: “Remember when Moses was in the wilderness and the serpents were attacking the people? The cure for the fatal, poisonous bite was to LOOK at the staff being held aloft. That was too easy and many people died rather than LOOK! Well, that was a “type”. It was an example of our need to DO SOMETHING!! The people were required to LOOK! When they looked, they were saved. It is the same with us. We must ACT! We must DO SOMETHING FIRST! The blessings come AFTER we ACT!”

    But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2: 4-5

    Those who are spiritually dead are incapable of doing. “Doing does not precede grace – – grace precedes doing.

  61. 61 Echo
    July 15, 2011 at 7:42 am

    Anne said: “Remember when Moses was in the wilderness and the serpents were attacking the people? The cure for the fatal, poisonous bite was to LOOK at the staff being held aloft. That was too easy and many people died rather than LOOK! Well, that was a “type”. It was an example of our need to DO SOMETHING!! The people were required to LOOK! When they looked, they were saved. It is the same with us. We must ACT! We must DO SOMETHING FIRST! The blessings come AFTER we ACT!”

    I love that story too Anne. :)

    We believe it is a “type” also. The fatal, poisonous bite is a “type” of the consequences of our sin which is Hell. And just as the snake was lifted up, so Jesus was lifted up. When we “look” ( in faith alone) to him we are saved.

    Anne said: “We must be doers of the word, not hearers only!”

    We are absolutely in agreement with you Anne on this point. However we believe we are saved first and then become doers of the word.

  62. July 15, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Echo,

    thanks!

    as for this:
    ” As for the principles in the Bible:
    Baptism for the dead
    Temple worship
    baptism by immersion
    laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
    Priesthood authority/spiritual gifts/healings
    tithing
    Apostles
    Prophets

    We do have the answers for all of the things you have listed. If you ever want to know what we believe about any of those things, feel free to ask.”

    I KNOW you have “answers”, but do you have these “things” in your church? All of these were present in the Savior’s original Church. The restoration of the Gospel has restored these to the Church again. We have a prophet, a quorum of 12 apostles, we have temples, we have the saving ordinances, etc.

    I know Christian people who don’t even think it is “necessary” to be baptized, let alone have the gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed upon them. When ever I have asked Christian about this same list….they explain away the need to have these things in “modern” times. If they were important to the Savior, then why would they be done away with?

    As for your “reworded” question:

    I understand your view of eternity being either cast down to hell for non-belief or living in heaven for believers. I don’t think I have ever heard more than that. I tend to believe the “many mansions” theory and degrees of glory that the restoration of the Gospel teaches. I also believe that there is a lot of teaching going on in the Spirit World for those who did not have the privilege to know Christ when they lived on earth. Just as Christ went to the world of Spirits (the spirits in “prison”) and taught as noted in 2nd Peter….I believe that EVERYONE who has ever lived on earth will have the opportunity to except or reject the Savior. My Savior is the same yesterday, today and forever and he would not have one set of rules for those lucky enough to be born in a day when the teachings were available and another set of rules for the unlucky ones.

    thanks Echo.

    ~anne

  63. July 15, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    RLO, (and all others)

    I do not think the statement “doing does not precede grace—grace precedes doing” really applies here

    Of course we depend upon the Savior’s atoning sacrifice for EVERYTHING we do….and it does precede our ability to repent…… but it does NOT PRECLUDE our ability to repent. There are laws and commandments to be obeyed regardless of what was done FOR us. The atonement is timeless and infinite.

    I still take umbrage with the theory that Heavenly Father and the Savior would give us commandments they KNOW are impossible to keep. Above all they are honest and trustworthy. They aren’t out to trick us. the commandments help us be the kind of people that can dwell with them. They have pretty high standards and we need to comply step by step, line upon line, precept on precept.

    The Savior’s atonement has paved the way for us to repent and since the Savior paid the price our repentance counts, it is enough! It would NOT be enough (it would NEVER BE ENOUGH) without his payment. (The Savior’s atonement was even retroactive for the Saints that lived BEFORE He was born. They were saved BECAUSE of the PROMISE of the atonement.) NO WHERE does it say we are freed from obedience, or that obedience is an option. Yes, we are able to repent AND HAVE IT MEAN SOMETHING because of the Savior’s sacrifice, but we still have to repent! I think the Evangelical position is a little shaky when you make repentance and obedience seem like a gift we willingly give to God if we so choose to….rather than the LDS position that states we have an obligation to obey and follow God and the Savior to qualify for His amazing gift of grace. The only free gift is resurrection. Eternal life is conditional on our obedience. His grace will boost us over the finish line EVERY TIME! But……it requires OUR EFFORT!!! There are MORE scriptures in the Bible that support this position than there are scriptures that support the Evangelical position. (by about 2-1)

    LDS do NOT RELY upon the law! we obey the law and RELY upon the Savior.

    Hope that clears up our position a little better…..and remember I am just a lay member of the Church…not a professional!

    see ya!

    Anne

  64. 64 shematwater
    July 15, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    I have not read every comment, so please forgive me if I repeat something.

    First, I would like to say that it is very true that no one here who is not LDS actually understands what we believe. Now, I am all for answering questions, but that is not what Echo, or Kent, or JBR, or any other non-LDS wants. At least I have seen no evidence in their posts that they really care to have any of us members clarify what our church teaches.

    If you want to ask a question so that your understanding may be enlightened, I am all for it. I really don’t care if you agree or not. If all you want to do is understand our doctrine, I am ready to help you.
    However, as has been the case all too many times in my experience, what you really want is for us to explain some small portion of doctrine and then reply with endless lectures on how that portion is in error. You don’t want a discussion for understanding, but a debate to prove yourselves right.

    ECHO

    I love that you list our sins, and thus ignore the very teaches of Christ when declared “Hypocrite; first remove the beam from thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to remove the mote from thy brother’s eye.”

  65. 65 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Hi Anne;

    Thank you for your respectful response. You need not apologize for being just a lay member of your church ̶ I am a lay person in my church as well.

    You stated, “I still take umbrage with the theory that Heavenly Father and the Savior would give us commandments they know are impossible to keep. Above all they are honest and trustworthy. They aren’t out to trick us.”

    I too believe Heavenly Father and the Savior are “honest and trustworthy,” and that they aren’t “out to trick us.”

    Allow me to give an example of where someone once asked me to do something impossible ̶ not because she was being dishonest, or untrustworthy, or attempting to trick me ̶ but rather for the purpose of teaching me a greater truth.

    When I was just a child, we had many apple trees in our back yard. But as an impatient child, I always wanted to pick the apples before they were ripe, despite my mother’s admonitions not to do so. One day I picked a green apple and showed it to my mother. After telling me what I had done was wrong, she told me to go back out and put the apple back on the tree (the impossible commandment). After standing under the apple tree for a considerable amount of time, holding that little green apple up to a tree branch, fully expecting that the tree would somehow take that green apple back, I eventually came to understand that I was never going to be able to put that green apple back on the tree, that I was never going to be able to undo what I had done. My mother softly asked me, “Now do you understand why you can’t pick green apples off the trees?”

    While it is certainly conceivable that someone could ask you to do something impossible because they are being dishonest and trying to trick you, it doesn’t necessarily follow that deceit would always have to be their motive.

    I don’t think my mother was being dishonest or tricking me. I think my mother was teaching me a valuable lesson that day ̶ that inappropriate actions sometimes have irreversible consequences ̶ a life-long lesson I still carry with me today ̶ a life-long lesson that only cost this world one green apple. I hope you don’t take umbrage with my mother having done so.

    As time permits me, I would also like to address some other points of your post. Thank you for your patience.

    RLO

  66. 66 markcares
    July 15, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Shematwater:
    The problem is, according to the LDS Church, the only people who can speak with any authority about the doctrine of the church are the General Authorities. For example, just recently Ralph disregarded a statement by a bishop because he was just a “local leader”. If I am to disregard that statement, why should I regard your statement, or Ralph’s statement, or anybody else’s.as helping me understand LDS doctrine? For more on this see my post on May 20th, 2009 and how Mormons can’t even agree on what are their official sources of authority!
    Secondly, there are so many different explanations from Mormons themselves on their own teaching. Read Peter’s comment #1 and Ralph’s comment #3 above. They are saying the direct opposite! Who is right? Who should I listen to? And why should I listen to them?

  67. July 15, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    Mark,

    For those of us who are members of the Church, Peter and Ralph’s comments DO NOT disagree in the slightest! Our works do NOT save us. Grace SAVES us. Our works enable GRACE to work in our life. Effort, obedience, righteous works qualify us for Grace, but will not EVER save us. We rely on the Savior. We cannot attain Eternal life without His Atonement! WE DO however, have to participate in our “salvation” to the extent that it is up to us to OBEY! Someone here quoted President Heber J. Grant, who (I am paraphrasing) said the Lord will enable us to obey and help us along the way. He would NEVER give us a commandment we could not obey. He wants us to succeed! Help is always available! We need to PARTICIPATE in our salvation, but we can’t accomplish in on our own.

    There is ONLY one way back to Heaven. And that is through the Name of Jesus Christ! WE have a covenant relationship with the Savior. We are mutually bound through the ordinance of baptism. You can have this privilege, too, if you were to be baptized by one who held the Aaronic priesthood!

    As for the “local leader” comment. First, I think we all doubt that a Bishop said that to her….but honestly what is Un-Christian about cautioning that woman about breaking her covenants? It is a dire situation. She is cutting the ties that bind her to the Savior. We DO take this very seriously. And, I asked this question before, why, when she asked to be cut off from the Church is she complaining that he told her she was cut off? We believe in agency and it is her choice to leave the Church. No one would compel her to stay! If she left, then she is “cut off” from her covenants, her association, her rights and privileges, but that was apparently what he told her and cautioned her about! Seems to me she would be relieved to know she “did the deal” and would not be burdened by the Mormons anymore! And while the First Presidency and the 12 Apostles are the authorities, Bishops are authorized to speak for their Church congregation. They can’t effect Church policy, but any member can tell you what we believe as long as our sources are the Standard works and Church handbooks. (no preaching out of the Readers Digest allowed!)

    So, Mark, ask away! I don’t think YOU claim to speak for all Christians, so you will understand that our answers may slightly vary from person to person. It won’t be doctrine that varies…..just skill in presenting it. For example, because you are not a member of our Church you don’t have access to background information and history as we do. Someone might give a cursory explanation and someone might give an in depth one. It doesn’t mean that one is wrong and one is right, just that some may go into deeper detail than others.

    Sorry, Shem if I stole your answer here! I just couldn’t resist talking to the big dog himself!

    ~Anne

  68. 68 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    Hello again Anne;

    You further stated, “No where does it say we are freed from obedience, or that obedience is an option. Yes, we are able to repent and have it mean something because of the Savior’s sacrifice, but we still have to repent! I think the Evangelical position is a little shaky when you make repentance and obedience seem like a gift we willingly give to God if we so choose to . . .”

    I know that repentance and obedience play a significant part in your beliefs. But I often get the impression from reading your posts that you think repentance and obedience play a less significant part in our beliefs. I don’t think anything could be further from the truth.

    We don’t speak of repentance and obedience as “optional” or “not optional.” Rather we speak of repentance and obedience as being “present” or “not present.” And where they are present, they are evidence of God’s grace. Where God’s grace is not found, repentance and obedience cannot be found.

    Repentance and obedience are gifts. But not gifts we willing give to God, but gifts God give us the ability to experience and perform by first making us alive in Christ. We know that when we were dead in our transgressions, God made us alive in Christ, and gave us the gift of faith. And we know that without that faith, it would be impossible to please God. We love him, because he loved us first. Even when we were dead in transgressions.

    You went on to state, “. . . rather than the LDS position that states we have an obligation to obey and follow God and the Savior to qualify for His amazing gift of grace.”

    Statements like this one will always tilt heads for those of my faith. Because for us, grace is a disposition of God to grant us something freely, even undeservedly. The mormon concept of earning or qualifying for grace will always rub against the grain for us. I think we may always be at an impasse on this point. Earning or qualifying for something that is freely given is simply unfathomable to us.

    “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:23-24

    “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:16

    “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” Romans 11:6

    We would have a tough time getting past passages like these, were we to begin attempting to earn God’s favor.

    You said, “Hope that clears up our position a little better.”

    Actually, everything you said was pretty much how I understood your position. I hope my comments have made our position a little clearer to you as well.

    RLO

  69. 69 markcares
    July 15, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    Anne:
    I would like to focus in on your statement: “She is cutting the ties that bind her to the Savior.” Please read my previous post and see why I told this story. I told it to say why comments like that and now the one I have quoted from you, appear to contradict the claim that the Mormon church is just another Christian church. If we are all Christians, how can she be cutting the ties that bind her to the Savior by joining another church?

  70. July 15, 2011 at 8:35 pm

    RLO,

    Did your mom have the “power” to help you put that apple back on the tree? Nope.

    Cute story, but sorry to tell you that your mom was ONLY making a point, and yes she KNEW it was an impossibility. So, it was a good lesson about repentance, but isn’t really analogous to my point.

    Heavenly Father has the power to help us with any problem. He does not give commandments that we can’t accomplish. He requires our obedience, our faith, our repentance. He supplies the help and His Son supplied the means.

    I am sure that occasionally we get OURSELVES into problems that we can’t get out of, but there isn’t ONE thing that God commands us to do that is impossible!

    looking forward to the rest of your points.

    ~Anne

    P.S. NO UMBRAGE for mom….she sounds like a peach….or should I say a “good apple”!!

  71. July 15, 2011 at 9:00 pm

    Mark,

    We don’t claim to be “just another Christian church”. We belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” This IS his Church. this is going to sound “snotty”, but THIS IS THE ORIGINAL Christian Church. It has been restored to the earth. This Church has the authority, the priesthood authority to BIND people in a covenant relationship. Your church, while “a Christian” Church is NOT THE Christian Church. Lutherans broke off from the Catholic Church which was corrupt. Good men like Martin Luther KNEW that there was no authority in their reformation. They just knew that the Catholic Church was rotten at its core and they took their love of Jesus and the Bible and formed their own church.

    The time came when the Lord saw fit to call another prophet to the earth. Joseph Smith is that man. He was an instrument in the hand of God to restore the ORIGINAL Church of Christ back to the earth.

    No offense, but to be “cut off” from your Church means nothing because Lutheran’s, or Brethren or Presbyterians don’t have any official capacity. Can someone just switch churches rather easily? Just jump from one denomination to another without much effort? Well, it is not the case with our Church. Once a member, always a member.(unless you request to be, or through transgression you are “cut off”…and then there is still ALWAYS repentance!!) I am sure you have noticed the permanent feel to our Church. We have leaders, buildings, temples, offices, missions, a hierarchy and millions of dollars worth of land and property. This is the REAL DEAL. Not because of our assets……because of our commitment! Because of HIS AUTHORITY! This is Christ’s Church. It was “cut out of the mountains without hands” It is NOT going.away.ever. His Kingdom is growing! It is far reaching! And lucky you, you have been plopped right down in the middle of it!

    You probably even have Mormon neighbors living in Idaho! So, if I were you, I would call up a local LDS leader and find out how I can join!! good luck, friend….i am still praying for you!

    Anne

  72. 72 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 9:12 pm

    Anne asks: “Did your mom have the “power” to help you put that apple back on the tree? Nope.”

    Wrong point of comparison.

    Anne states: “He does not give commandments that we can’t accomplish.”

    Repeating the mantra doesn’t make it true.

    Besides,

    “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin.” Romans 3:20

    “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23

    Anne says: “but there isn’t ONE thing that God commands us to do that is impossible!”

    “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48

  73. July 15, 2011 at 9:12 pm

    RLO,

    I believe that Faith is mine for the taking. I feel that it is UP TO ME to gain Faith and put it into action. Where in the Bible does it say that we have to wait for God to give us faith? Does an Aborigine in the middle of Africa have the opportunity for this gift? just curious.

    Anne

  74. 74 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    And hello once more Anne;

    Finally you stated, “There are more scriptures in the Bible that support this position than there are scriptures that support the Evangelical position (by about 2-1).”

    I’m not sure where you come up with your two-to-one ratio, but it’s not really important. The more pertinent question is, “So where does that leave us?”

    I believe I could interpret all the passages you believe support your position in light of our theology.

    I’m curious, in light of your theology, how you would interpret such passages as Romans 1:17, Romans 3:23-24, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-6, Romans 4:16, Romans 9:16, Romans 9:30, Romans 11:6, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:3, Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:21-25, Galatians 5:4, pretty much the entire second chapter of Ephesians, Colossians 2:13-14, Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 10:14, to mention only a few.

    Since I believe God’s word doesn’t contradict itself, there either has to be a reasonable explanation for all of your passages in light of my theology, or a reasonable explanation for all of my passages in light of your theology.

  75. 75 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    “Where in the Bible does it say that we have to wait for God to give us faith?”

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Hebrews 11:6

  76. July 15, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    RLO<

    Yes, I can! It is this simple. The Bible is a compilation of the writings of the Apostles in relation to the experiences they had. Many times they would be called to "put out fires". they would expound on specific questions. They did NOT intend to exclude parts of the doctrine while they stressed one prinicple, but when they taught authoritatively, some (maybe you?) might think they did.
    For example: Paul taught and it is recorded in Ephesians 2:8 & 9 that "we are saved by grace not works, lest any man should boast." He was specifically addressing the Jews who were trying to impose the Old Law, or the Law of Moses on the Gentile converts. The jews were prone to boast in the works and sacrifices of the law of Moses. The very next verse makes it clear that WORKS matter. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." It is easy to reconcile the other verses you quoted as well. When someone knows ALL the doctrine, it fits together without a hitch!

    I will address one of the passages you gave me: Romans 4:16. Starting with verse 15 we learn that where there is NO law, there is NO transgression. This means that people without the law cannot be expected to LIVE and OBEY the law. It doesn't say that the law is of no importance. (incidentally this is one of the principles of the Gospel that supports our temple work for the dead! All are important to God and ALL should have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ…and IF someone has not had that opportunity, they would not be judged as if they had) Back to verse 16: It tells us that FAITH is required to attain GRACE. Not only to those of the "law" (meaning the Law Of Moses or the Jews) but to all who have the faith of our father Abraham! (this is perfectly in alignment with what we believe) And thanks to James, we know that Faith without works is dead! I believe it was commonly known what was required, only some needed "pumped" up in certain aspects of the "new Christian doctrine". Remember this was ALL new to these people! The Jews were firmly entrenched in the Law of Moses. They were prideful and resisted change.

    how about another one: Romans 9:16

    This is referring to mercy. Mercy and its brother Justice must balance. This is telling us that God alone will decide the balance between mercy and justice. He is in charge and He will decide! I don't see where this plays into grace at all. Jacob was blessed for his obedience and righteousness and his willingness to follow God. Esau was cursed for his LACK of obedience, righteousness and willingness to follow God. God would LIKE to bless everyone, but WORKS do MATTER!! Justice must be done! Sometimes mercy can swoop in and help (when we repent), but Justice must have its day!

    well, R-LO,(is that like "J-LO"?) that is all I have time for this evening. thanks for your patience!

    sincerely,
    Anne

    PS remember that there are thousands of converts each and every year who overcome the obstacles you have mentioned. the gospel is true! all of it! later!

  77. 77 markcares
    July 15, 2011 at 10:28 pm

    So why do so many Mormons that I talk to – and so Mormon missionaries who go door to door say that they are Christians like the people they are talking to. They don’t say that that they are the only true church. No, they make a big point of saying that they are like other Christians – the only difference is that they have the fullness of the gospel. I would say that your statement is the more honest one. But I don’t hear that being proclaimed PUBLICLY either by prominent Mormons or grassroots Mormons.

  78. July 15, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    RLO,

    I read Ephesians to mean this: For by grace we are saved through faith (in Christ, i assume); and that not of yourselves (meaning I can’t save myself); it is THE gift of God. (meaning the Gift of His Son that saves us).

    interesting that we each have a different take on it.

    Anne

  79. 79 RLO
    July 15, 2011 at 11:34 pm

    Anne said: “Paul taught and it is recorded in Ephesians 2:8 & 9 that ‘we are saved by grace not works, lest any man should boast.’ He was specifically addressing the Jews who were trying to impose the Old Law, or the Law of Moses on the Gentile converts.”

    Specifically addressing the Jews? Interesting. Because Ephesians was specifically addressed to Gentile believers: “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth . . . ” v. 11

    “well, R-LO,(is that like “J-LO”?)”

    Nope. Not like J-LO. Just my three intials – RLO.

  80. 80 RLO
    July 16, 2011 at 12:05 am

    Ann comments: “I am sure you have noticed the permanent feel to our Church. We have leaders, buildings, temples, offices, missions, a hierarchy and millions of dollars worth of land and property. This is the REAL DEAL. Not because of our assets……because of our commitment! Because of HIS AUTHORITY! This is Christ’s Church. It was “cut out of the mountains without hands” It is NOT going.away.ever. His Kingdom is growing! It is far reaching!”

    Okay, Anne. Let’s keep it in perspective:

    World Mormon Population 14,000,000
    World Christian Population 2,000,000,000
    US Mormon Population 7,000,000
    US Christian Population 224,457,000

  81. 81 RLO
    July 16, 2011 at 3:05 am

    Anne said: “I read Ephesians to mean this: For by grace we are saved through faith (in Christ, i assume); and that not of yourselves (meaning I can’t save myself); it is THE gift of God. (meaning the Gift of His Son that saves us).
    interesting that we each have a different take on it.”

    You have the words ” … and that…” as well as the words ” … it is … ” referring apparently to things that are not even found in this passage of scripture. If this is indicative of your techniques of interpretation for the clear words in Ephesians, if you can come to these conclusions from what you have read, then I am convinced that you, in your mind, are capable of interpreting absolutely anything to mean absolutely anything you want it to mean. Which means we’ve dipped below the minimum threshhold of intelligent communication. Until we can agree to let plain words speak for themselves, I don’t see that we are going to accomplish anything through continued dialog. There is simply no sound basis for any further discussion.

    I wish you no ill will.

  82. July 16, 2011 at 3:23 am

    I have a bunch of teens over watching Lord of the Rings quite loudly, so I don’t think I’ll be able to respond all that I want tonight, but I wanted to address this:

    Echo said, “Granted you believe you can repent and be forgiven for every sin you overcome. But even in that, YOU are the one doing the saving of yourself as you overcome each of your sins. See what I mean?”

    No…you are wrong. What is happening is, I am obeying Jesus by being repentant and because I am following Him and believing that he made it possible for me to repent, he is saving me.

  83. 83 jbr
    July 16, 2011 at 6:00 am

    Really……..?
    Jesus is saving you ? ….. And these two quotes from Mormon leaders are what,…. that they aren’t saying what they are saying?

    ==============================================================================
    “We came here to be saviors. “What, saviors?” “Yes.” “Why, we thought there was only one Savior.” “Oh, yes, there are a great many. What do the scriptures say about it?” One of the old prophets, in speaking of these things, says that saviors shall come up upon Mount Zion [see Obadiah 1:21]. Saviors? Yes. Whom shall they save? In the first place themselves, then their families, then their neighbors, friends and associations, then their forefathers, then pour blessings on their posterity. Is that so? Yes. …”

    ……. TofPofC – John Taylor, p. 187

    ================================================================================
    It is not enough just to save ourselves. It is equally important that parents, brothers, and sisters are saved in our families. If we return home alone to our Heavenly Father, we will be asked, ‘Where is the rest of the family?’ ”
    (in Conference Report, Oct. 1996, 88; or Ensign, Nov. 1996, 65).

    ……… …. Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of the Twelve

    =================================================================================

  84. July 16, 2011 at 6:41 am

    jbr…these quotes go beyond your comprehension, thus, you choose to use them inaccurately. These quotes are regarding temple work. If you decide you would like to understand the importance of sealing families together, the sealing power, and Heavenly Father’s desire that “all” men be saved, then learn about Heavenly Father’s great plan of Happiness.

  85. 85 Kent
    July 16, 2011 at 11:04 am

    Anne, you said one of the reasons your church is the restored church is because you have temple worship but why do we even need a temple? As Jesus said the temple would be destroyed and this was fulfilled when it was destroyed in 70 AD but I don’t see any need for a temple now anyway as the purpose of the temple in the Old Testament was to atone for sin with blood sacrifices of innocent animals that also foreshadowed Jesus’ sacrifice that took away all the sins of the world.

    Yes, the people in the Old Testament also, besides having the animal sacrifices, worshipped in the temple but we can worship today in churches and, for that matter, anywhere else as well.
    So unless you’re your church is having animal sacrifices in your temple, which I am sure they are not doing this, then the Mormon temple is not the temple of the Bible.
    As I said, Jesus’ sacrifice of Himself on the cross means we don’t have any need for the temple anymore.

    Also, Jesus Himself said His body was the temple and that He predicted His atoning working on the cross and how He would rebuild it in three days, which He did when He rose from the dead after His body (the temple) was destroyed when He was crucified.

    Matthew 24:1-2

    1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    John 2:18-21

    18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21But he spake of the temple of his body.

  86. July 16, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Kent,

    The restoration of the Gospel provides many revealed truths that you do not understand. The temple is a SACRED place of worship. It is a place where we make SACRED covenants and are taught the things of heaven. The temple was taken away from the Jews because of their wickedness. NO WHERE in the Bible does the Savior say the temple is obsolete. HE DOES compare our body to the temple, He compares his mortal body with the temple because he USED parables so that the people would comprehend his message. We have had over 2000 years to digest His message. It was VERY new to the Jews…..even though they had looked forward to the Messiah’s coming for thousands of years.

    You need the restoration of the Gospel! IT IS THE SAVIOR’S kingdom on earth! What do you have to lose?

    Why keep fighting it?? Take your love of the Savior and broaden your knowledge of Him and his church!

    good luck to you!

    ~Anne

  87. July 16, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    RLO,

    W.O.W. What did I do to deserve that???

    I typed Ephesians 2:8-9 RIGHT out of my KJV Bible! I told you what I thought it meant! And then I get that weird, over reaction??????

    I am not an English teacher, but Isn’t it reasonable to think that the first article presented in the sentence is the SUBJECT of the sentence? Most people don’t switch in the middle.

    For by GRACE are we saved through faith (like I said, I believe this means faith in Christ, so….by grace we are saved through our faith in Christ); and that not of yourselves (meaning we cannot save ourselves); IT is the gift of God. (meaning that IT or GRACE is the gift of God).

    Is that outlandish? Did I strike a nerve?? why the big, kooky over reaction?

    How about everyone else??? Help me out here. Why did RLO go off on this simple scriptural interpretation.
    I didn’t EVEN ATTEMPT to tell him (you are a him?) that he was wrong, and I didn’t even get snotty!

    thanks,
    Anne

  88. July 16, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    RLO,
    perhaps “addressing” the Jews” was confusing. I should have said he was “referencing” the Jews. The Jewish converts were trying to impose the old law of Moses and all its “works” on the new gentile converts.
    The Jews were snobbish when it came to the gentiles.

    anne

  89. 89 Kent
    July 16, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Anne,

    It is clear that we are saved by having faith and trusting in what Jesus did on the cross alone and that there is nothing we can ever do to contribute to this salvation and that saying it is grace after all we can do is doing what the passage says not to do and that is boasting. It does say we were created to do good works, I would agree with this, but not that the works we do have anything to contribute to our salvation and to say that they do is, as I stated, boasting.

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

  90. July 16, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Kent,

    you sure read a lot into that scripture! what about Hebrews 5:9? He is author of Salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

    Why not give that scripture equal weight?

    and your verse 10 above: God have ORDAINED that we should walk in “good works”. Sounds like a mandate to me!

    :)

    anne

  91. 91 jbr
    July 16, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    Kate…
    It would be better if you stood back and read it for what it says on face value…….

    ————–> “We came here to be saviors.” “What, saviors?” “Yes.” “Why, we thought there was only one Savior.” “Oh, yes, there are a great many. “Saviors?” —- (as in plural) —— “Yes”
    .
    ————–> Whom shall they save? <———————–

    In the first place:
    ———-1. themselves,
    ———-2. then their families,
    ———-3. then their neighbors,
    ———-4. friends and associations,
    ———-5. then their forefathers
    ——————————————then pour blessings on their posterity.

    ……….but we can't leave out Jesus, can we?

    There will be many that will be in outer darkness for attempting to save themself … or attempting to play a role in it.

    Either you do it or God does it all for you…………not some of each.

  92. 92 shematwater
    July 16, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    Getting a little ridiculous here, isn’t it?

    MARK

    When a missionary or member states that we are all Christian, and that the difference is that we have the fullness of the Gospel, they have just stated what Anne has explained. To leave the fullness of the gospel for only a partial gospel is a lot worse than leaving a partial for another partial.

    We are all Christians for one very simple reason: our religions are all based on a belief in Christ and his teachings as found in the Holy Bible. Yes, we have varying interpretations, and we LDS even use additional scripture. However, the basis for the religion is the same source. It is as simple as this.

    The reason we LDS are annoyed when you claim we are not Christian is because by doing so you mislead people into the false idea that we do not believe in the Bible. Many times I have had people tell me that Mormons don’t use the Bible, and their reason for believing this is that we are not “Christian.”

  93. July 16, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    JBR,

    please give me your take on Obadiah 1:21.

    thanks,
    anne

  94. July 17, 2011 at 12:14 am

    jbr…what???? So we should read a quote out of context and look only at what the words are saying disregarding the subject those quotes are discussing…and relate them to what “you” are discussing? Really? Face value? No wonder you are confused.

  95. 95 RLO
    July 17, 2011 at 2:23 am

    Perhaps Mormons should consider what Christians believe according to the words of The Athanasian Creed, a creed that has been used by Christian churches for the past 1,400 years, before they decide if being considered a “Christian” is something they really even want.

    The Athanasian Creed

    Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else,
    hold to the true Christian faith.
    Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points
    will certainly perish forever.
    Now this is the true Christian faith:
    We worship one God in three persons
    and three persons in one God,
    without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.
    For each person ̶ the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ̶ is distinct,
    but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
    equal in glory and coeternal in majesty.
    What the Father is,
    so is the Son,
    and so is the Holy Spirit.
    The Father is uncreated,
    the Son uncreated,
    the Holy Spirit uncreated;
    the Father is infinite,
    the Son infinite,
    the Holy Spirit infinite;
    the Father is eternal,
    the Son eternal,
    the Holy Spirit eternal;
    yet they are not three who are eternal,
    but there is one who is eternal,
    just as they are not three who are uncreated,
    nor three who are infinite,
    but there is one who is uncreated
    and one who is infinite.
    In the same way
    the Father is almighty,
    the Son is almighty,
    the Holy Spirit is almighty;
    yet they are not three who are almighty,
    but there is one who is almighty.
    So the Father is God,
    the Son is God,
    the Holy Spirit is God;
    yet there are not three Gods,
    but one God.
    So the Father is Lord,
    the son is Lord,
    the Holy Spirit is Lord;
    yet they are not three Lords,
    but one Lord.
    For just as Christian truth compels us to confess
    each person individually to be God and Lord,
    so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak
    of three Gods or three Lords.
    The Father is neither made nor created nor begotten of anyone.
    The Son is neither made nor created,
    but is begotten of the Father alone.
    The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten,
    but proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    So there is one Father, not three Fathers;
    one Son, not three Sons;
    one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    And within this Trinity none comes before or after;
    none is greater or inferior,
    but all three persons are coequal and coeternal,
    so that in every way, as stated before,
    all three persons are to be worshiped as one God
    and one God worshiped as three persons.
    Whoever wishes to be saved
    must have this conviction of the Trinity.

    It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe
    that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh.
    Now this is the true Christian faith:
    We believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son,
    is both God and man.
    He is god,
    eternally begotten from the nature of the Father,
    and he is man,
    born in time from the nature of his mother,
    fully God, fully man,
    with rational soul and human flesh,
    equal to the Father as to his deity,
    less than the Father as to his humanity;
    and though he is both God and man,
    Christ is not two persons but one,
    one, not by changing the deity into flesh,
    but by taking the humanity into God;
    one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures,
    but by unity in one person;
    for just as the rational soul and flesh are one human being
    so God and man are one Christ.
    He suffered for our salvation,
    descended into hell,
    rose the third day from the dead.
    He ascended into heaven,
    is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty,
    and from there will come to judge the living and the dead.
    At his coming all people will rise with their own bodies
    to answer for their personal deeds.
    Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
    but those who have done evil will go into eternal fire.

    This is the true Christian faith.
    Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this
    cannot be saved.

  96. 96 jbr
    July 17, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    annemckee,

    It’s the last verse of the prophecy given to Obadiah. This prophecy appled to the time of the Babylonian captiviity. At the end he prophesies of Christ’s Kingdom, that it shall not be just in Jerusalem only, but everywhere. As with many prophesies Jesus did, it has a dual application.

    But the main theme of this prophecy is that because of Edom’s participation of the captivity of Isreal, God’s wrath will destroy that nation and God will return Isreal. And we know that just a remnant returned …. not all.

    The fact that only few and not all were returned is another dual lesson that should be taken as well.

  97. 97 jbr
    July 17, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    You see it as me being confused …… about what? That Jesus isn’t a co-savior, or that the ladder theory of salvation it isn’t from Jesus.

    You’re headed for outer darkness. That is why we witness to Mormons.

    Either you 100% on your own or God does it 100% for you…………not some of each.

    Your version of Jesus is an example….. the Bible’s version of Jesus is an subsitute.

  98. 98 jbr
    July 17, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    It should read:

    Either you’re 100% on your own or God does it 100% for you…………not some of each.

  99. July 17, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    RLO,

    Hey, you! You never answered my question as to why the over-reaction to Ephesians 2:8-9?

    Next, the above creed is a MASS of confusion. It is NOT scriptural and if it came about 1400 years ago that is too far removed to have any authority from Christ. The “trinity” is never mentioned once in the Bible. It is a false teaching. Christ is the Son! He is a separate individual. He came to earth and prayed to His Father…also a separate individual. The Bible bears this out! At the Savior’s baptism, all three members of the Godhead were present SEPARATELY! They are THREE different, separate individuals.
    It would be misleading and terribly confusing if Jesus were praying to God the Father but was really teaching that there was no separate God the Father. It is confusing for me to even write about it!

    Basically, this is a man-made philosophy. Probably created by someone who loved the Lord, but who didn’t have the authority to create doctrine.

    And YOU ARE right, this is NOT what we mean when we say we are Christians. WE are Christians because we follow Christ. Not because we are a branch broken off from Catholicism.

    Looking forward to your answer of question ONE above!

    Anne

  100. July 17, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    JBR,

    Jesus said,’Not everyone that saith unto me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven” Matthew 7:21

    That scripture, right from the lips of our Savior, tells us that we MUST participate in our salvation. We cannot just say “Lord, Lord” and gain admittance. WE MUST DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER!

    Doing the will of the Father requires work, effort, deeds, obedience and so forth.

    I honestly don’t know how you all twist the Bible to fit your agenda….maybe “agenda” is too harsh. But you certainly twist it to suit yourself! NO WHERE does it say that you will automatically turn into an obedient person AS SOON AS YOU ARE SAVED! NO WHERE! (caps are emphasis…not yelling) Obedience is a PRE-requisite.

    Effort and obedience are KEY to salvation. Straight paths=obedience Narrow way=obedience
    “Keep the Commandments”=obedience

    The Bible is CLEAR! “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS” (Matthew 16:27)

    For you to “condemn” Kate to outer darkness is pretty amazing! Your understanding about the Restored Gospel is minimal at best, and for you to take a subject SO ENTIRELY out of context and then to rail against her about it is downright ridiculous!

    And, did you notice the word Savior vs. the word savior? One is capitalized and denotes the Savior of the World. the other is NOT capitalized and refers to people who “save” others. Big difference!

    It is not too late for you! You, too, can have the restored Gospel in your life. We invite you to study and learn with real, live Mormons. Add to the truth you have and let your love for the Savior lead you to the truth!

    best wishes,
    Anne

  101. July 17, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    I see that there is no reason to even converse with you. Sadly, you answer yourself and don’t even listen to what I’m saying. You WANT those quotes to be about the topic you are suggesting, yet they are not. They are about temple work…which, even the new testament talks about. Baptism for the Dead? but like I said, if you want to have a conversation all by yourself, fine.

  102. 102 jbr
    July 17, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    The conversation is that way because you’re choosing not to read the obvious.

    You believe that the “ladder” is from God…..
    Jesus revealed that isn’t so.

  103. 103 jbr
    July 17, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    Q: What are the works <— (plural) that God REQUIRES (my emphasis..not yelling)

    A (Jesus): …………..

    “The work <—- (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    There is only one work God requires…. To believe.

  104. July 17, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    JBR,

    Q. what is your favorite color?

    JBR’s answer: it is 4:00pm.

    (or at least that is how our question and answers usually go)

    Kate, I think we have stumped them. When they can’t give an intelligent answer, or admit we have a point they sink a notch or two and become irrelevant.

    ~anne

  105. 105 RLO
    July 17, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    Anne asked: “Hey, you! You never answered my question as to why the over-reaction to Ephesians 2:8-9?”

    What you view as an over-reaction, I view as the realization that further conversation with you is pointless, as long as the simple of words of scripture are not allowed to speak for themselves, but must be bent to conform to your interpretation.

    As to the rest of your post, your mormon views regarding The Athanasian Creed of the true Christian faith as “a mass of confusion,” or, “not scriptural,” or, “too far removed,” or, “never mentioned in the bible,” or, “a false teaching,” or, “a man-made philosophy,” are just that. Your views, and the views of Mormons. Again, for the same reason noted above, further discussion with you is pointless.

    The overwhelming majority if not virtually all of the professing 2,000,000,000 Christians worldwide suscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity. To the best of my knowledge, it is only the 14,000,000 or so Mormons worldwide who insist they are Christians, and yet deny the Trinity. But if there are others, I’m sure you’ll let me know.

    When I consider that Mark never entered into the blog world with the purpose of engaging in endless and fruitless argument with Mormons, but “for the purpose of teaching, equipping and encouraging Christians on how to effectively witness to their Mormon friends, neighbors, co-workers and family members” (Click on “about” at the top of this page), I’ve decided that when Mark’s next thread comes up, I’ll be making a renewed effort to respect this purpose.

  106. July 18, 2011 at 12:46 am

    RLO,

    wow . that is all I can say! I must have really touched a nerve!!

    show me where the trinity is taught in the Bible.

    YOU WILL never get through to Mormons when you profess NON-scriptural “creeds”. there is NOTHING scriptural about that creed you quoted. or the “apostles creed” or the nicene creed or any of the rest of them. they came out of the dark ages when the Catholic Church was at its pinnacle of wickedness.

    also, show me what was wrong with my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. (if you can)

    I thought this was a friendly place to talk about religion….don’t leave me disillusioned!

    ~anne

  107. July 18, 2011 at 1:05 am

    You are right Anne! It has been a blessing in disguise though…I have been able to use this blog as an example to others on how conversation like this goes. It has made many readers very grateful for the knowledge the Gospel brings, instead of the confusion and limits that some would rather wallow in. I only hope that Echo, Mark, RLO, jbr and others will let the spirit in to teach them there is more than what the gospel they teach offers. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is magnificent! And it makes so much sense!

  108. July 18, 2011 at 1:10 am

    Yes, RLO…I would like to know your scriptural back-up on the Trinity. Maybe I will blog about it so you don’t have to disrespect Marks blog. I am fascinated how one can conclude that the posts that Mark publishes are for the purpose of teaching other christians how to witness effectively to their Mormon friends when they are not completey based on truth. And don’t ask me to prove that…we have done that over and over.

  109. 109 RLO
    July 18, 2011 at 3:01 am

    Anne, Kate;

    No raw nerves. For the third time – until the plain words of scripture are allowed to speak for themselves instead of being forced to conform to mormon theology, further discussion is pointless. We’re talking past each other. I choose for this reason, though not for the reasons you presume, but for the reason I have given you, to refrain from further fruitless discussions.

    A final note. While the word “trinity” itself is not found in the Bible, this does not imply the concept of the “trinity,” as described above in The Athanasian Creed, is not found in the Bible. But again, I choose not to subject the plain words of scripture supporting the docrine of the Trinity to unwarranted criticisms.

    I’m simply following the example of Paul, who also recognized when the time for talk was over.

  110. 110 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 3:51 am

    Anne said: ” KNOW you have “answers”, but do you have these “things” in your church? ”

    Baptism for the dead……

    We do not have Baptism for the dead because Paul wasn’t referring to himself or the Christians he was speaking to. He used words such as “they” and “those” rather than “I” and “we”

    Temple worship……

    The temple was the place where the Priest offered up blood sacrifices for the people’s sins. This was a “type” or a “shadow” for Jesus who is the ultimate blood sacrifice and who gave his own blood for our sins. The “type” or “shadow” was replaced by that “reality”.

    baptism by immersion…..

    We have both baptism by immersion and by sprinkling, neither is “wrong”.

    laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost……

    We do receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

    Priesthood authority/spiritual gifts/healings….

    The only people that could hold the Aaronic priesthood were those descendants from a particular line of Aaron.

    Numbers 3 says ONLY certain Levites from the family of Levi could hold this priesthood or the result would be DEATH.

    If you read Hebrews, not even Jesus himself qualified for this priesthood because he was not from the tribe of Levi he was from the tribe of Judah and no one from that tribe could serve in the Aaronic priesthood.

    Jesus serves as a priest like Melchizedek and as Hebrews 7:3 states, Jesus “remains a priest forever”. The Melchizedek priesthood was a priesthood of one. (one person) and Jesus hold that priesthood permanently (Hebrews 7:28)

    Tithing…..

    In the Old Testament the Israelites were under compulsion to pay a 10% tithe. Today, in the New Testament, we can tell who some of the false teachers are because today they still claim that God has a Compulsory Tithe of 10%. (Greed)
    In the New Testament, tithing is no longer “compulsory” as it was in the Old Testament…

    2 Corinthians 9:7 “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

    Apostles
    Prophets…..

    We believe in the Apostles and Prophets of the Bible. They are the “foundation” that we build on…

    Ephesians 2:20 “built on the foundation of “THE” apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.”

    Notice the word “THE” that I put in caps? That word means that the foundation is the prophets and Apostles in the Bible. If the church were built on an ongoing succession of Apostles and Prophets as the LDS believes, that word: “THE” would have to be removed.

  111. 111 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 3:55 am

    Shem said: “I love that you list our sins, and thus ignore the very teaches of Christ when declared “Hypocrite; first remove the beam from thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to remove the mote from thy brother’s eye.”

    You ignored part of what I wrote didn’t you? The part where I removed the beam from my eye. How convenient Shem.

  112. 112 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 3:59 am

    Anne said: …there isn’t ONE thing that God commands us to do that is impossible!”

    Galatians 2:21 ” if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

  113. July 18, 2011 at 4:02 am

    RLO,

    why can’t you tell me what was wrong with my KJV bible verse??????????

    I am going to have to draw the conclusion that I scared you off!

    anne

  114. 114 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:17 am

    Anne said: “perhaps “addressing” the Jews” was confusing. I should have said he was “referencing” the Jews. .”

    Can you point me to the verse where it states that he was referencing the Jews?

  115. 115 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:19 am

    And you are not forgiven until that particular sin has been overcome?

  116. 116 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:29 am

    Read the OT Anne, the Temple was the place that animals were scarified for the people’s sins. As Kent said, unless you still are sacrificing animals in your temple’s, it’s unbiblical. It’s unbiblical regardless because in the NT, Jesus has sacrificed himself for our sins. Read about it in Hebrews.

    The Temple was a shadow of the reality we now have in Jesus. Hebrews shows how all these things have now been made “obsolete”

    The Aaronic Priesthood was in charge of what went on in the temple. (Only certain tribes from the Levi family were able to be priests in the Aaronic Priesthood. Anyone other than those from this particular family were to be put to DEATH. Read the OT, it’s all there.

  117. 117 RLO
    July 18, 2011 at 4:31 am

    Do you really need me to tell you a fourth time?

  118. 118 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:35 am

    Anne said: “you sure read a lot into that scripture! what about Hebrews 5:9? He is author of Salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM.”

    “Believing” him is obeying him.

    Anne said: “and your verse 10 above: God have ORDAINED that we should walk in “good works”. Sounds like a mandate to me!”

    We believe that God has ordained that we should walk in “good works”. We are just not saved by walking in Good works.

  119. 119 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:41 am

    Anne said: “Hey, you! You never answered my question as to why the over-reaction to Ephesians 2:8-9?”

    I believe you are the one who has “over-reacted”, read his post carefully.

  120. 120 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:45 am

    Anne said: “Jesus said,’Not everyone that saith unto me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven” Matthew 7:21

    That scripture, right from the lips of our Savior, tells us that we MUST participate in our salvation. We cannot just say “Lord, Lord” and gain admittance. WE MUST DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER!”

    Anne, let scripture interpret scripture. That is like saying: Let God interpret his own word for you….

    What is the will of the Father Anne? That is the question and that question is answered here….

    John 6:28-29 ” Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

  121. 121 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:47 am

    Anne said: “Kate, I think we have stumped them. When they can’t give an intelligent answer, or admit we have a point they sink a notch or two and become irrelevant.”

    What is is that you feel you have stumped us with?

  122. 122 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:52 am

    Anne said: “Effort and obedience are KEY to salvation. Straight paths=obedience Narrow way=obedience
    “Keep the Commandments”=obedience ”

    Can I ask you a question?

    In a Family scenario where there is a Mom, Dad and children, are the children kept outside of the home until “effort and obedience” “Keeping the commandments of your parents” are required before those children are considered worthy enough to call the parents home their home?

  123. 123 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:55 am

    Anne said: “show me where the trinity is taught in the Bible.”

    Anne, you wouldn’t be willing to listen and examine what he said with an open-mind anyways so just as RLO has said: A conversation with you is pointless.

  124. 124 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 4:57 am

    Anne said: “.YOU WILL never get through to Mormons when you profess NON-scriptural “creeds”. there is NOTHING scriptural about that creed you quoted. or the “apostles creed” or the nicene creed or any of the rest of them.”

    Anne, for your information, Christians get ALL doctrine from the BIble and from the Bible alone.

  125. 125 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 5:30 am

    Anne said: “I am going to have to draw the conclusion that I scared you off!”

    This response of yours is another fall into pride and false assumptions based on “feelings” rather than “facts”. Even though RLO has responded to your said post, there are numerous reasons why someone may choose not to respond to your posts and those reasons might be “good” and “righteous “reasons. You believe you can obey all the commandments, then why don’t you start now?

  126. 126 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 6:03 am

    Mormons,

    If you believe you can obey all the commandments, then you must obey “ALL” the commandments. If you fail to obey all the commandments, you have NOT done “all you can do” and therefore, grace won’t apply to you. “Saved by grace after all you can do” (BOM)

  127. 127 jbr
    July 18, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    Q. Jesus…what and how many works are required by God for salvation?

    Jesus’ revealed A: the work that God requires is this ( drum roll…………..) To believe.

    The only people who will be stumped will be those who cried out… (in effect) LORD, LORD…didn’t we (have continuing) prophecy in your name and many miracles (done by laying on of the hands)

    This is why we (and not us exclusively) continually witness to Mormons. This blog isn’t to prove that the Annemckee’s, Kate’s, Shem’s and Ralph’s are wrong …. but we do understand that despite the apologists like Annemckee’s, Kate’s, Shem’s and Ralph’s image of superiority of LDS infallibility, there are the Sandra Tanner’s and the Robert Millet’s that are seeking the truth.

  128. 128 jbr
    July 18, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    In case it gets lost……..
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Q. Jesus…what and how many works are required by God for salvation?

    Jesus’ revealed A: the work that God requires is this ( drum roll…………..) To believe.

    The only people who will be stumped will be those who cried out… (in effect) LORD, LORD…didn’t we (have continuing) prophecy in your name and many miracles (done by laying on of the hands)

    This is why we (and not us exclusively) continually witness to Mormons. This blog isn’t to prove that the Annemckee’s, Kate’s, Shem’s and Ralph’s are wrong …. but we do understand that despite the apologists like Annemckee’s, Kate’s, Shem’s and Ralph’s image of superiority of LDS infallibility, there are the Sandra Tanner’s and the Robert Millet’s that are seeking the truth.

  129. 129 shematwater
    July 18, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    Fun, isn’t it.

    First, I would like to say that I think Anne has gone a little to far, though I do understand why.

    As for the rest, I think the hypocrisy of ECHO is coming to light. In the previous blog (titles “We are all Christians”) Echo listed 17 points of LDS doctrine and demanded biblical references for each. Ralph provided said list, and so I politely declined to add further to it on the grounds that such would be pointless a Echo would never look at them with an open mind.
    To be precise I said “Why would I bother giving you the scriptural references when I know you will just ignore it anyway. Ralph has done a good job, and there is no need for more. It just seems a waste of time.”
    Now, to this Echo gave the reply “Well there are more people than just me here. But to be honest, I don’t think you can do it.”

    Now, JBR has given the same reason for not responding to Anne, which who then interpreted as an inability to. Echo than tried to justify JBR with his comment “This response of yours is another fall into pride and false assumptions based on “feelings” rather than “facts”. Even though RLO has responded to your said post, there are numerous reasons why someone may choose not to respond to your posts and those reasons might be “good” and “righteous “reasons.”

    So, to ECHO I must repeat for a third time the Savior’s advice to remove the beam from his own eye before he even thinks about looking for a mote in anyone else’s.

    JBR

    In response to your creed, I would say that it really doesn’t matter. Honestly, from the wording, the creed actually seems to accept the LDS understanding of the term Christian. Otherwise it would not use the phrase “True Christian.” By using this phrase they are allowing others to be called Christian while at the same time denouncing them as false.
    So, we are all Christian, but from your perspective we are false Christians, and from ours you are false Christians. So, your creed does not exclude us from using the term Christian as a description of our faith.

    As far as historical records go, the term Christian was first used in Antioch to designate those who believed in Christ (not the Bible, as that book had not yet been compiled) and was most likely a derogatory name (like Yankee, or Mormon) when first used, but later accepted by the church. It was properly used to refer to all sects, creeds, and factions that were in anyway based on the teachings of Christ (including splinter groups). This is likely the reason for the phrase of “true Christian faith” in the creed you quote.

    As such, the LDS church has a great deal of history and theology backing its claim to be called Christian; while all you have is your petty squabble that we have different doctrine than you supporting your claim that we are not.

    As regards your reasons for not responding and your accusation of not letting the scriptures speak for themselves, we are just as capable of making the same accusations against you and all the others here. We are accused of not letting the words speak, and yet you bring in concepts that are not found directly in the bible (like the trinity)? We are accused of not being open minded, and when was the last time you actually took the time to listen to anything we have said?
    Now, I am all for giving up on a conversation when it becomes apparent neither side is going to give the other, and I do not blame you for this. I have done it many times myself. However, just realize that everything you accuse us of, you are just as guilty in.

  130. 130 shematwater
    July 18, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    In the Matthew quote concerning the doing of these great things, you miss the point that their justification is not that they did them, but that they did them in the name of Christ. They are not saying, “look what we have done.” They are saying “because we believed in you we did all this.” To this profession of faith Christ states “I never knew you.”
    This verse is not speaking against those who do the works in righteousness, but against those who profess to believe in Christ, and based on that do these things, but deny the true gospel. These are those who have a form or godliness, but deny the power thereof. They will be cast off.

    As to the only work being to believe, James tells us that we cannot fulfill this without the works of righteousness in obeying the commandments.

    I will tell you the real difference between our faith and yours.
    You believe and so you may try to obey, but doing so doesn’t matter. As such you have nothing really concrete to support your faith.
    For us, we believe because we have obeyed and seen the promises fulfilled. We tested our faith in a small degree, and God was faithful to fulfill his words. We then tested to a larger degree, and he was again faithful. Because he has been faithful in keeping his words we do longer simply believe because it is written in a book that we must. We believe because we have seen the truth of some of his words, and are thus able to believe in the truth of all of his words.
    Our faith, like James has said, is made perfect by our works, and so we know we are pleasing unto God, just like Abraham.

  131. 131 shematwater
    July 18, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    ECHO

    You asked “In a Family scenario where there is a Mom, Dad and children, are the children kept outside of the home until “effort and obedience” “Keeping the commandments of your parents” are required before those children are considered worthy enough to call the parents home their home?”

    Here is the answer. Yes. A truly loving parent will not allow their child to remain at home if that child was violating the rules of the house. To do so is to cause anarchy and confusion in the home, and prevent the child from learning how to be responsible.
    I have two cousins who, as young women, informed their mother they were pregnant. That very day she packed their stuff and found them an apartment to live in, for they have violated the rules of the house. She still visited them, and supported them in every way she could. They were allowed to visit her house, but they could not live their.
    They learned the value of keeping the rules, and became responsible and caring mothers because of this, and they love their mother for it. Now, after they have learned and repented, they are always welcome in her home, and if they needed they could come and live with her. But that is because they have submitted themselves to the rules of her house.

    In the same way, our Father in heaven cannot let any of us return to his house until we have learned to submit ourselves to his will, and grow into responsible men and women. He cannot allow any person who willfully defies his law live in his home, no matter what his relationship to them is.

  132. 132 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    Shem said: “You believe and so you may try to obey, but doing so doesn’t matter. ”

    That’s not what we believe.

  133. July 18, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    ok, everybody, I am absolutely clueless what I did that was so bad! I honestly am not a strident person! I would honestly like to know why RLO thinks my interpretation of Ephesian 2:8-9 was so bad.

    ALL HE HAD TO DO to satisfy me was to do a line by line explanation of HIS interpretation.

    Instead he accused me of using words that weren’t in the scripture (but they were in my KJV Bible), and then saying I am “below” the grade for expressing my opinion.

    Is this NOT an open forum? Is this a non-binding discussion…and anonymous discussion among fellow Christians?

    I don’t get it ….someone please enlighten me!

    Anne

  134. July 18, 2011 at 8:27 pm

    Shem,

    I am feeling abandoned here! How did I go too far???

    Anne

  135. July 18, 2011 at 8:35 pm

    Echo,

    You are such a peach! I am so glad you have injected yourself into this issue! Would YOU like to tell me what was wrong with my opinion of what Ephesian 2:8-9 meant? Is it WRONG to have an opinion on this blog? I got a completely unexpected over-reaction freak out from RLO. He gave me NO explanation, at least not one that I could understand. And after REPEATED requests he still won’t answer. What conclusion would YOU draw if someone would not answer you? So, apparently, I am the dog of the blog because I had the AUDACITY to ask a question.

    Please refer to my benign post where I simply told him what that scripture meant to me. I didn’t lord it over him, I didn’t brag about MY interpretation, I didn’t call him out on HIS take on it.

    Now, I have YOU and even Shem telling me I went too far!! I am totally without a clue as to what the problem is!

    Have i ever judged YOU?? Have I told YOU to start living the commandments? I am ashamed of some of the behavior by the “Christians’ on this blog!

    let me know what I did, please!

    ~Anne

  136. 136 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    RLO said: “When I consider that Mark never entered into the blog world with the purpose of engaging in endless and fruitless argument with Mormons, but “for the purpose of teaching, equipping and encouraging Christians on how to effectively witness to their Mormon friends, neighbors, co-workers and family members” (Click on “about” at the top of this page), I’ve decided that when Mark’s next thread comes up, I’ll be making a renewed effort to respect this purpose.”

    I am with you brother. This blog was intended to teach, equip and encourage Christians in how to witness to Mormons…. Mormons who are willing to listen, not the kind of Mormons we are encountering here. Engaging in arguments with Mormons who are not willing to listen is fruitless.

    I will be joining you in your renewed effort.

  137. July 18, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    RLO:

    that is code for: “they really have us on the ropes brother, we better scram!”

    hahahahahahaha :)

    anne

    OK, maybe NOW i have gone too far!

  138. 138 Echo
    July 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Romans 2:23-24 ” You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

  139. 139 jbr
    July 18, 2011 at 11:31 pm

    Shem,
    So you’re saying that because we refuse to accept what we consider false that means the only explanation for that is because we don’t read what you say……Then did Jesus not listen to the teachers of the Law ?

    ….”while all you have is your petty squabble that we have different doctrine than you supporting your claim that we are not.” ……..

    A petty squable …. doctrine is just petty, interesting.

    Ok… do you agree with Moroni 8:18

  140. 140 RLO
    July 19, 2011 at 5:24 am

    Anne;

    I will make a sincere effort to explain to you why I do not wish to continue with the line of conversation as it has developed since your arrival on the blog. But it will only be my wasted breath if you are unwilling to at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I am in fact making an effort to be sincere. I will also make a concerted effort to be diplomatic.

    First, I would have to agree with “Shem’s” evaluation of your response – perhaps for some of the same reasons, and perhaps for some different reasons. But considering his feedback comes from someone of your own faith, I would hope you would not be too quick to dismiss it out of hand.

    I think you should also give fair consideration to what he said regarding the possible reasons why a person makes the decision to break off dialog. It doesn’t have to be a matter of having lost the argument, as you have presumed.

    Where irreconcilable differences on an issue are discovered, when a deadlock is reached, what purpose is served by continuing? Rebuttals of issues then give way to attacks on persons. If you were to take the time to read all the posts on every thread of this entire blog over the past three years, that would become readily apparent to you. I choose to no longer be a participant on either end of this.

    Regarding our respective theologies, you of course place confidence in your own, just as I do in mine. It would be well enough if those on each side of the discussion could simply express what they believe and why they believe it. Unfortunately there are those, on one side, the other side, or on both sides, who invariably feel compelled to go beyond addressing theological positions by making personal attacks. Again, I choose to no longer be a participant on either end of this.

    I’m sure you feel you have done nothing wrong. So finally, I would encourage you to review your posts over the past month. Ask yourself, “How many of my comments criticize, disparage, or belittle an individual rather than address a theological point?”

    RLO

  141. July 19, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    RLO,

    you said, “if those on each side of the discussion could simply express what they believe and why they believe it.”

    Please review MY post. I DID JUST THAT! I gave my interpretation and then made the totally benign comment: “isn’t it interesting that we have a different take on it?”.

    Then you went ballistic and were rude to ME! I was TOTALLY BLINDSIDED by your comment! I was interested in YOUR opinion! Yet, when I gave mine I got the snotty response that I had sunk below intelligent conversation. why would you go so over board on me? I thought our discourse had been quite friendly….YOU even “forgave” me freely!

    And when i ask (over and over) for an explanation, I get more rudeness. Not ONCE did you delineate what the problem was, even though that is ALL I asked of you!

    Tell me, (I am being sincere here) when did I criticize, disparage or belittle you? I certainly didn’t mean to! I was teasing you a little by saying you were scared off, but that WAS NOT until YOU freaked out on me!

    You guys are SO thin skinned here! So, one more chance: what is it about MY interpretation did you disagree with? Why did you think that I added words to the KJV verse? (Do you have access to a KJV?)

    I KNOW you believe that “grace” is a gift from God….so why the venom?

    You should be sharpening your “Mormon converting” skills here and I am afraid your response leaves YOU seriously lacking.
    Do you have the courage to take this head on? Or are you going to fall back on the “can’t discuss it with you” drama?

    waiting for your reply

    ~anne

  142. July 19, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    Echo,

    I don’t even know if you will see this reply:

    but here goes.

    I have read the Old Testament! The temple was a place of worship. they sacrificed animals in the courtyard. The temple was a place of worship, prayer, meditation, washing, anointing, etc.

    The Levitical priesthood, or the tribe of Levi, had the opportunity to serve in the Priesthood. John the Baptist was of the tribe of Levi. Jesus went to HIM to be baptized because Jesus knew WHO had the priesthood authority to baptize….actually John had the Aaronic priesthood which is a step above the Levitical priesthood… the Levitical priesthood only held the offices of Deacon and Teacher.

    Why would the Savior of the World care about priesthood authority? Because it is THAT important. Actually the priesthood is the force that runs the world! It is the foundation of EVERYTHING, Science, Math, Engineering, etc. It is how the Lord created the earth and the universe!

    Yes, priesthood is important. Temples are vital to the Lord’s work. It is where He teaches and trains his Saints.

    Maybe you could go there one day! I hope so! I would hope you would take your LOVE for the Savior and explore the possibilities!

    ~anne

  143. 143 jbr
    July 19, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    Anne….
    Then your continuence presence ( or shems, ralphs and kates) here means that either you’re exploring to be “Mormon converting” —- or is the “.. “Mormon converting” skills…” just another one of many in a line of sarcasms you do (apparently unawares)—————-that even shem has to call you on it.

  144. 144 Echo
    July 19, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Anne,

    Jesus himself didn’t qualify for the Aaronic Priesthood because he was not from the line of Levi.

    And here the LDS lets all boys age 13 hold the priesthood.

    The Bible states that the sons of Levi had to be 30 years old.

  145. 145 Echo
    July 19, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Anne said to RLO: “………….waiting for your reply’

    I doubt RLO will be responding to any more of your posts until you can stick to addressing theological points rather than criticizing, disparaging, belittling an individual and until you can keep yourself from making assumptions about an individual. (Your latest post be another case in point)

    Addressing theological points is a good and loving thing to do. Attacking individuals is a vice not a virtue. Vice’s stem from human depravity, they do not stem from God.

    Addressing theological points out of love and concern for one another is not contentious. Attacking individuals is extremely contentious. Mormons resort to causing or stirring up contention very frequently. The evidence of this (based on the facts and not on my feelings) is strewn throughout the archives of this blog and include your own posts.

    The Christians here are interested in discussing doctrine with Mormons out of love and concern for Mormons, they aren’t interested in attacking Mormons themselves as individuals. Mormons are more the other way around. They are more interested in attacking individuals than discussing doctrine out of love and concern for us.

    I agree with RLO, there comes a time when there is no point in having a discussion with someone whose heart is unrepentantly set on the vice of attacking individuals. In light of all that the Bible teaches, in light of God’s commandments, it is very unbecoming of both our faiths to attack an individual. It is a sin against what God has commanded us to do.

    Trust me Anne, you are the one overreacting, not RLO. You overreact because of the false preconceptions or prejudice you have about Christians and because that causes you to continually make false assumptions about us. That is what causes you to overreact to everything we say.

  146. July 19, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    Echo,

    You do NOT know my heart. You are holier-than-thou along with RLO, who when faced with ANY opposing opinion runs and hides behind your “love of Mormons” stay-on-the-purpose-of-the-thread-dogma.

    Neither YOU nor RLO can answer my questions because you would have to admit that I have a point! So you name call, criticize and lecture me on my supposed personal “attack”.

    What a bunch of insecure cry babies!! Do you have any conviction? Then stand up for yourself! I wouldn’t hesitate to defend my beliefs! But apparently calling people names and over-reacting is more righteous than facing a conflict head on. AND it was not even a CONFLICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I kindly and innocently expressed my opinion. I guess opinions are not welcome on this blog. (and since when are YOU in charge here?)

    You, apparently, want milquetoast Mormons who roll over and play dead while you mis-characterize, malign and insult our religion and our beliefs. Well, good luck. If Mark Cares wants to lock me out of the blog, then that is his choice, but until then, I will continue to express myself and defend my Church the way I see fit.

    So, ta-ta Echo!

    ~anne

  147. July 19, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    oh and Echo……why don’t you just let the Lord know that HE HIMSELF can’t hold the priesthood! I would like to be there for that!
    Also, tell Him that even though it is HIS priesthood, and He should be able to call the shots for himself, that YOU beg to differ because, like, you know, YOU ARE THE FINAL AUTHORITY OF ALL CHRISTENDOM!!

    what nerve!

  148. 148 RLO
    July 19, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Echo;

    Thanks for the support and understanding you’ve extended to me. Though I do have a few words for Anne.

    Anne;

    Here are a few things (from your last post alone) you should consider not doing if you are seriously trying to carry on a civil conversation on an important topic:

    Telling someone they went ballistic

    Referring to someone’s response as snotty

    Repeatedly telling someone they and their responses are rude

    Continuing to call their response “freaking out” even though it has been explained to you

    Telling someone they are thin skinned, rather than considering the possibility you may have said something offensive

    Telling someone “You should be sharpening your “Mormon converting” skills”

    Telling someone they are seriously lacking.

    Questioning another’s courage

    Characterizing another’s decision to no longer engage you in discussion as “drama”

    . . . and a few more from some of your previous posts on this thread:

    Telling those of your faith how much they rock. Did you come here to discuss issues, or to be a cheerleader?

    Telling Mark his ministry is a waste. So what does that really add to the discussion?

    Suggesting that he could be in big trouble some day. Again, what does that really add to the discussion?

    Telling a pastor of 25 years, who studied four years of Pre-Seminary, and an additional four years of Seminary, who has dedicated his life to the ministry of saving souls, that he is, “…too proud to really see the truth.”

    Falsely accusing Mark Cares of harassing mormon missionaries, telling him, “. . . I know that is what you have done in the past . . .” when in reality, you have absolutely no evidence to support this, which, by the way, is a violation of the commandment against bearing false witness

    Mischaracterizing our faith as, “sitting back, fat and happy, not putting forth any effort…”

    Telling a Christian he is wasting his time.

    Calling Christians “anti-mormon” and telling them they don’t have their glasses on.

    Responding to another person’s illustration of a true life experience with, “Cute story, but sorry to tell you . . .” completely ignoring the intended point of comparison, and then going on to make an unintended point of comparison.

    Referring to Mark Cares as “. . . the big dog . . .”

    Alluding to me as “J-Lo.” No serious offence taken by me, and no apology required, but you should know that as someone attempting to carry on a meaningful spiritual discussion, your referring to me as “J-Lo” was hardly complimentary, but frankly a bit socially awkward on your part.

    Beginning a post with, “Hey, you!” (something that didn’t come across as being particularly respectful in a conversation that was already suffering . . . )

    Gloating to other mormons that you have stumped us (you haven’t), implying that we cannot give intelligent answers (we can and we do), implying that we are irrelevant (we are not. Two billion Christians worldwide? Irrelevant? Fifteen million Mormons worldwide? Relevant?) Again, are you addressing issues, or cheerleading?

    Beginning a post with, “You are such a peach.” It’s about the issues, Anne. Address the issues.

    Continuing to refer to my decision to break off dialog with you in terms such as, “my being scared off,” or as an “over-reaction freak-out,” in spite of my having explained the “why” of my decision three times.

    And don’t forget. On a previous thread, you even went so far as to presume to tell me and others who they would and would not vote for. And while you eventually did backtrack on that statement, I believe it is nonetheless indicative of the spirit with which you approach members of our faith on this blog. Why should you be surprised when someone eventually decides they no longer want to be subjected to this kind of treatment from you?

    And still, in her latest post, Anne says:
    “RLO: Is that code for: “they really have us on the ropes brother, we better scram!”
    hahahahahahaha :)
    anne
    Okay, maybe now I have gone too far.”

    Still not getting it Anne?

  149. 149 RLO
    July 19, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    Oops. make that “In one of Anne’s previous posts…”

    Because her last series of posts are clearly “over the top” and only further make my point.

  150. 150 Echo
    July 19, 2011 at 9:47 pm

    Anne said : “You do NOT know my heart”

    Rather odd comment coming from someone who continually claims to know what is in our hearts based on her own feelings and assumptions all apart from and even prior to getting the facts.

    Everything I have said to you was based on facts not feelings. I am ‘not’ judging your motives, I am judging your actions. Your actions are sinful.

    Anne said: “You are holier-than-thou along with RLO”

    What makes a person holier-than-thou is the ongoing continual behavior of attacking individuals with lack of love and respect.

    Anne said: ” who when faced with ANY opposing opinion runs and hides behind your “love of Mormons” stay-on-the-purpose-of-the-thread-dogma.”

    Here you go again. Attacking individuals i.e. “runs and hides” and also you are judging my heart with regards to suggesting I don’t love Mormons which is a LIE once again based on your prejudice against Christians and false assumption based on feelings rather than on facts.

    And all based on prejudice and preconceived notions about Christians. You are Consistent and constant in your vice. The “fact” of the matter is…we “Do LOVE Mormons” We have stated this many times. Who told you that we don’t love Mormons? (I want “facts” not “feelings”). For your information, we don’t “run and hide” we are just obeying God’s command to avoid those who stir up contention.

    Anne said: “Neither YOU nor RLO can answer my questions because you would have to admit that I have a point!”

    Another false assumption. WE can answer your questions. RLO has answered your question more than once. You don’t have a point. Your theology doesn’t intimidate us because God’s word is that powerful. There just comes a time when it’s best to walk away from those whose desire is to continually attack us as an individual.

    Anne said: “So you name call, criticize and lecture me on my supposed personal “attack”.

    I don’t recall calling you a name. Where did RLO or myself call you a name? Copy/paste please. Without proof, you are bearing false testimony against your neighbor. (One of the 10 commandments)

    When we point out your sins, we are obeying God’s commandment to show you your fault. (In effort to lead you to repentance)

    Anne said: “What a bunch of insecure cry babies!! ”

    You believe you can keep all the commandments but you don’t. This statement of yours is also not in line with obeying the commandments to love your neighbor. The way I see it, you have already failed “to do all you can do” (BOM)

    I think a person who must resort to as much sinning as you do, (comments like this one and the multitude of others), in order to defend themselves must be the one feeling very insecure and/or guilty. Which is it? If you are feeling insecure, we can help you. If you are feeling guilty, we forgive you.

    Anne said: “Do you have any conviction? Then stand up for yourself!”

    Anne, If you have any conviction, why do you continually have to resort to sin in order to stand up for yourself? That sounds like the opposite of conviction to me. If you have any ‘real’ conviction yourself, you would be able to discuss doctrine with us, in love and concern for us without having to resort to personal attacks to accomplish what it is you want to accomplish.

    On the other hand, my convictions are so strong, I don’t need to give an answer to you in order to feel strong in my convictions.

    Anne said: “You, apparently, want milquetoast Mormons who roll over and play dead while you mis-characterize, malign and insult our religion and our beliefs”

    We do not have the desire to mischaracterize Mormon beliefs. We have welcomed the Mormons posting here to give us more context of what we have posted we have also welcomed any Mormon links that are posted by Mormons. Mormons are free to say what they want with regards to the Mormon doctrines being discussed. We have no problem with that.
    We do not agree with all the personal attacks and making assumptions and this lack of love and respect towards individuals coming from Mormons. We want to maintain peace between Christians and Mormons. If Mormons don’t want to maintain peace between us, then we will pull out of the discussion. We simply want to discuss doctrine with Mormons in a loving and friendly and respectful way.

    Mormons and Christians are different in this regard…while Mormons get insulted when someone talks about their religion, Christians don’t get insulted when Mormons talk about our religion. Mormons often get our doctrine wrong and we don’t hurl insults at them for it, nor do we make assumptions that they are doing it intentionally. With love respect and patience towards Mormons, we will continue to clarify our teachings to Mormons for as long as it takes. Mormons have the God given right to be Bereans and to test our teachings to the best of their ability.

    Anne said: “So, ta-ta Echo!”

    You are a very disrespectful. This is a vice not a virtue.

    Anne said: “oh and Echo……why don’t you just let the Lord know that HE HIMSELF can’t hold the priesthood! I would like to be there for that! Also, tell Him that even though it is HIS priesthood, and He should be able to call the shots for himself, that YOU beg to differ because, like, you know, YOU ARE THE FINAL AUTHORITY OF ALL CHRISTENDOM!! what nerve!”

    God himself states in his word that Jesus cannot hold the priesthood. It’s all written in the scripture. You can find that in the book of Hebrews. I am not the final authority of all Christendom, God’s word is the final authority on all Christendom.

    Anne, we believe it’s important for you to know that you are caught up in a religion that is false. It is not God’s desire that anyone believe in something false. God’s knows that false teaching only harms us all. Therefore we desire to be as loving and respectful to Mormons as we possibly can as we help them to see the truth.

    Mormons are our passion. Mormons are dear to our hearts.

  151. July 19, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    yep, I said it all! YOU seriously lack any sense of humor or sense of fun! You have got to be the biggest baby that I have ever corresponded with! You were offended by “peach” and r-lo???????

    that is so laughable!!! oh, but here I go again! I am supposed to be serious and not offend the serious scholars on this blog!

    for your information: big dog is a term of respect! he is the Big Dog of this blog, i.e. the boss, the big kahuna, the chief, the man! What a joke!

    You better just take your toys and go home, this sandbox is too rough for you!

    ~Anne

    How do YOU know that I don’t know Mark? I happen to have FiRST hand information about how he has addressed our young Mormon missionaries and I know that they are no longer allowed to even talk to him.

    and, just for the record……YOU CAN’T refute my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 or you would have!!

  152. July 19, 2011 at 10:40 pm

    Oh, and I am feeling SO dear to your hearts! You need a Big Mirror! You have been NOTHING but rude to me….all the while calling me out and naming sin after sin that I am guilty of! What a HYPOCRITE!!!

    Exactly where in Hebrews does Jesus tell us that He can’t hold the priesthood? Maybe you can come down off your high horse and find it for me! oooops I probably just offended you again!

    anne

  153. 153 Echo
    July 19, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    Anne said: ” Oh, and I am feeling SO dear to your hearts! You need a Big Mirror! You have been NOTHING but rude to me….all the while calling me out and naming sin after sin that I am guilty of! What a HYPOCRITE!!!”

    Can you please copy/paste where I have been rude to you? (You shall not bear false testimony against your neighbor)

    Pointing out your sins is a righteous thing to do because it is commanded by God. I am obeying God’s commandments in this. You are not obeying God’s commandments. .

    The Bible warns that the unrepentant go to Hell…

    Romans 2:5-11 “5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

    It is this terrifying and irreversible fate that I want to help you avoid ever experiencing. And so I show my love for you by wanting to help you avoid this fate.

    Through faith in the one true Jesus, you can be set free from all your sins!

    Stick around; we would love to show you how you can be set free. Okay?

    We do love you and one day you will understand just how much.

  154. July 19, 2011 at 11:35 pm

    all i have got to say is this: when you do it is “with love” and concern for my eternal salvation.

    When I do it it is “rude, sinful, disrespectful, and i am going to be consigned to hell”

    thanks for judging me! you have proven to me just what kind of person you are! Unrighteous judgment is a biggie….even for the likes of you!

    and to quote a famous man…..”I repent too damn fast”!!

    hahahahahahahahahaha

    anne

  155. 155 Echo
    July 19, 2011 at 11:39 pm

    Leviticus 5:17 “If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible

    Leviticus 19:17 “Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

  156. 156 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:21 am

    Mathew 12:33-35 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.”

  157. 157 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:25 am

    Proverbs 6:16-19 ” There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:

    haughty eyes,
    a lying tongue,
    hands that shed innocent blood,
    a heart that devises wicked schemes,
    feet that are quick to rush into evil,
    a false witness who pours out lies
    and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.”

  158. 158 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:27 am

    Jeremiah 11:7-8 “… I warned them again and again, saying, “Obey me.” But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.’”

  159. 159 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:35 am

    Mathew 7:15-17 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.”

  160. 160 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:46 am

    1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 “…who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are “hostile” to everyone in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last”

    2 Timothy 3:1-5 ” But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

  161. 161 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 12:54 am

    Hebrews 10:26-27 ” If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. ”

    1 John 3:6 “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

  162. 162 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 7:19 am

    Anne, we can help you overcome all of this scriptural condemnation through what Jesus alone has done for you. But first you must come to the same conclusion that God comes to which is….It is impossible for you to keep all the commandments. When you are willing to admit that truth like we all have had to, then there is some really good news in store for you!

  163. July 20, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Echo,

    Maybe you could help me find where it says that “ta-ta” and “freak out” are sins?

    anne

  164. 164 jbr
    July 20, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Sorry to breakup up the ping pong match…. can I interject a clarification question which seems to be the issue
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    For example: Paul taught and it is recorded in Ephesians 2:8 & 9 that “we are saved by grace not works, lest any man should boast.” He was specifically addressing the Jews who were trying to impose the Old Law, or the Law of Moses on the Gentile converts. The jews were prone to boast in the works and sacrifices of the law of Moses. The very next verse makes it clear that WORKS matter. “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” It is easy to reconcile the other verses you quoted as well. When someone knows ALL the doctrine, it fits together without a hitch!
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    Anne, is this what you’re refering to as “your take” ?

  165. 165 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    ECHO

    What eternal benefit do you gain from doing righteous works?

  166. 166 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    While I agree with everything you say, such phrases as the Catholic church being at the pinnacle of wickedness and other direct references to such things, while true, are not shared beliefs, I think should not be included in friendly discussion.
    In the book Mormon Doctrine the Catholic church was originally identified as the great and abominable church mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but President Kimball made Brother McConkie remove that as unnecessary and potentially harmful to relations with people of that faith.

    Besides this I am beginning to see the hostility that is so common in Echo in your words. Now, I will admit that such hostility has been in my words in the past, but I think we should all try to avoid it as much as possible.

    Simply put, I think you have lost your diplomatic touch.

  167. 167 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    Those terms in and of themselves are not sins. They become sinful words when the surrounding context is one or more of the following: disrespectful, condescending, mockery, ridicule, contemptuous, hatred, disdain, rude , rash etc.

  168. 168 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Shem said: “Besides this I am beginning to see the hostility that is so common in Echo in your words.”

    My words have NEVER been hostile. Copy/paste Shem. (do not bear false testimony against your neighbor)

  169. July 20, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    JBR,

    Not specifically. RLO said that “faith” was a gift from God. I asked where in the Bible he found that. He referenced Ephesians 2:8-9. I copied verse 8 straight from my KJV Bible and gave my take on it as thus:

    For by grace are ye saved through faith, (meaning Faith in Christ, I assume); and that not of yourselves (meaning we cannot save ourselves):it is the gift of God (meaning that grace, or the Gift of the Son, is the gift of God).

    I think my interpretation is reasonable. I don’t think I am a heretic. But RLO went ballistic on me and said I sunk below intelligent conversation and IF this was MY interpretation then I could make ANYTHING mean ANYTHING.

    I think his reaction was and OVER-REACTION. I cannot get him to explain to me why he went so nuts about it!

    What do YOU think? Is this way out of the ballpark? and why?

    thanks,
    Anne

  170. July 20, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    Echo,

    Are you calling RLO to repentance?

  171. 171 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Anne, I have addressed Ephesians 2:8-9 in the thread “We are all Christians” aprox post #223

  172. July 20, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Shem,

    Is there ANY doubt that the Catholic Church was corrupt? This is NOT polite???? Why do you think these people are Lutheran. It is a WELL known fact that the PROTESTANTS broke off from the Catholics! That is taught in Methodist Sunday school!!

    Do we have to check our loyalties at the door to blog here?

  173. 173 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Anne, I have copy/pasted the post on Ephesians 2:8-9 here for you…

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Not of works, lest any man should boast. ”

    Notice that the verse states that we are “saved” not of ourselves, not of our works. Contrast that with this…

    —-” If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.” (Heber J Grant (LDS)

    Here we are saved by obeying the commandments which contradicts : “not of works”.

    Here we are saved of ourselves: “No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. ” which contradicts “not of ourselves”

  174. 174 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Shem,

    How can a church remove something from the BOM which is supposedly supposed to be God’s word? That’s unfathomable and deadly dangerous to me.

  175. 175 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    Okay, now I have to say a few more things, and this time I am going to be very blunt, and thus very rude about it.

    ECHO

    Your hypocrisy is so blatant that anyone who would even listen to you has to insane. You have, on several occasions, accused me, Ralph, Anne, and almost every single LDS person on these blogs vile sinners, and have done so specifically to the individual. You have attacked us as arrogant, prideful, liars, and many other things. Now you have the unmitigated gall to claim that it is us who attack and belittle other people?

    While I disagree with Anne’s approach, you have justified everything she has said against you.

    Everything is just fine when you do it, but we Mormons are a vile lot of hate mongers if our words even hint at such things.
    Now, please understand, I say this only because of my love for you and my desire for you to turn from your misguided beliefs and actions.

    RLO

    I do think Anne went to far, and I think she should have ended things long ago. However, there was a time when I was doing the exact same thing, and so I can readily understand her.
    Having said this, I think she is, at least in part, justified concerning the attitudes of the non-LDS on these blogs. Yes, you were the first to enter into personal attacks when you said “Which means we’ve dipped below the minimum threshold of intelligent communication. Until we can agree to let plain words speak for themselves, I don’t see that we are going to accomplish anything through continued dialog. There is simply no sound basis for any further discussion.”

    So, for the benefit of your limited intellect I will explain exactly how Anne got her interpretation of the verse, and I will try to use small words so that our superior intellect will be sufficiently dumbed down.

    Anne said “I read Ephesians to mean this: For by grace we are saved through faith (in Christ, i assume); and that not of yourselves (meaning I can’t save myself); it is THE gift of God. (meaning the Gift of His Son that saves us).”

    You accused her as having “… and that…” as well as the words ” … it is … ” referring apparently to things that are not even found in this passage of scripture.”

    So, let us look at the enter passage (Eph 2: 8)
    For by grace – meaning his perfect and eternal love.

    are ye saved – meaning brought back into the presence of the Father.

    through faith – in Christ, like Anne assumes.

    and that – A pronoun referring back to a previously mentioned noun; in this case salvation.

    not of yourselves – a description of the preceding pronoun, which was referencing faith, giving Anne’s understanding that “I can’t save myself.”

    it – another pronoun, again referring back to salvation.

    is the gift – meaning that it is freely given

    of God – meaning the giver is God; and thus God gives us the gift of salvation. As it was through the atonement of Christ that salvation is given, Anne’s interpretation that the gift was His Son is perfectly valid. After all, it says in John 3: 16 that “God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not parish but have everlasting life.” I think Anne will join me in apologizing for assuming your intellect was sufficient to see this connection without having to point it out.

    There is absolutely nothing in Anne’s interpretation that is not found directly in the verse she is interpreting. I have shown that plainly. The clear meaning of the exact words of the verse have been given without adding anything to them.

    So, I wonder if you will do as you say you would and given your reasons for disagreeing with this understanding. Some how I doubt it, as it is not the clear words of scripture you are wanting, but the words of scripture as interpreted by you.

  176. 176 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    I simply stated the opinion that such statements are not very diplomatic in their nature and are thus not conducive to polite discussion. It doesn’t matter what religion these people here are. There may be Catholics reading this thread; and even for those who aren’t Catholic, such a statement about any religion generally lowers a person’s credibility in the eyes of others.
    I believe they were corrupt, and I have no doubt that most people here agree. But such a statement is a mistake in discussions of this nature.

  177. 177 shematwater
    July 20, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    Who ever said anything was taken out of the Book of Mormon? Here we again have ECHO twisting my words to make them match better with his concept of the LDS.

    To clarify, I said statements were removed from the book Mormon Doctrine for the way they referenced the Book of Mormon.

  178. July 20, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Echo,

    I understand YOUR thoughts on this. My beef was with RLO about why he went so nuts with me. Why didn’t he use restraint and say nothing? Why didn’t he say, “oh that’s nice”. Why did HE go so crazy and accuse me of who knows what and then pull the holier-than-thou act and list sin after sin that I am guilty of? Who acts like that? He (i guess he is a he) is unreasonable and unfriendly. He even has a problem with “ta-ta”????Really, who acts like that? Why would anyone want to believe in the same things he does when he is such a poor example?

    I do not believe in telling other people how or what to believe. I would like the same courtesy! We (LDS) have something YOU don’t have. I would like to share. I am sure that YOU would like to share what you have. Why can’t we just get along? Most of the contention here comes through judgmental cracks and that divide us. Why can’t I just say what “my take” on a scripture is without being accused of heresy or worse? I am here to counteract the false statements made against our beliefs.

    Now, to reply to your previous post. For the 40th time……we do NOT believe that we can save ourselves! We know that our salvation depends ONLY upon the Savior. WE do, however, believe that “to believe”, which is what He has commanded us to do, encompasses more than just a passive belief. We believe, as did James, that faith without works is dead. We believe in keeping the commandments. We believe in obedience and WHEN we do these things, then we QUALIFY for grace. The Savior TOLD US that He required us to “believe”, and this is what we KNOW “believe” to mean.

    I know you believe differently. But can’t we have our own beliefs?????

    Why, oh why, if it was so easy to simply ‘believe’ did the Apostles travel and work so hard to get the people to understand? It would have been a one-stop shop! “Just believe, and NEXT!” They would not have had to testify and preach and teach and labor so hard IF IT WAS SO EASY!!

    The Restoration of the pure, original Gospel to the earth explains all this!

    I USED to be a Methodist! I KNOW WHAT you believe (although the Methodists have changed their beliefs since I was a kid). Our Methodist pastor was a nice guy….but he COULD not answer my questions! My questions led me to many other churches….Catholic included (Shem). I did not find answers to my questions until the Mormon missionaries answered them!

    I have had miracles in my life! And someone on this blog told me they were from the devil! Sorry, I just do not give the Devil that much credit, nor do I think he has that much power!

    I KNOW the Gospel is true. I hope that someone reading this at LEAST learns to respect us for our beliefs.

    There is definitely a double standard here and I for one am sick of it!

    thanks for listening!

    ~anne

    And here is a question for you that went unanswered somewhere along the way:

    What becomes of an Aborigine in deep, dark Africa who never has the opportunity to hear the Savior’s message?

  179. 179 jbr
    July 20, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    Anne ………..you asked:
    —– > What do YOU think? Is this way out of the ballpark? and why? <———

    Do you mean your interpetation or the reaction by RLO to or your reaction to RLO's

    ____________________________________________________________________

    You mentioned that you had questions that was unanswerable till Mormon missionairies answered them.

    What answers did you get that was satisfactory?

  180. July 20, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    JBR,

    I meant do YOU think my having an opinion about a scripture (and including my interpretation) was out of line?

    I was TOTALLY blindsided by the reaction I got from RLO. I was fully expectiing a “gee, that’s interesting” comment. I had NO IDEA that I would get what I got.

    And, because I repeatedly asked (I am really curious) for an explanation, I was accused of being sinful! I guess RLO has zero sense of humor, and can’t take any teasing. I have been totally put off my him. And basically I think he is a jerk! so….there you go. that is my opinion of him. (and I still don’t know if he is a him)
    I do not intend to address him again…ever….no matter what the topic.

    My question for my pastor? I wanted to know what eternal relationship I would have with my father who died when I was young. My pastor had no answer at first, then came up with the “you will be friends in heaven” line. That wasn’t good enough for me. I wanted him to be my DAD in heaven. when I first saw the film “Man’s Search for Happiness”, I felt the Spirit bear witness to me that family relationships go beyond the grave.
    Since then, I have NEVER once found anything in the scriptures that doesn’t add up to what the Gospel teaches.

    Anne

  181. 181 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 9:08 pm

    Anne, in the future, I will not respond at all to any posts that aren’t respectfully written or that contain personal attacks. Feel free to do the same if you feel that way about our posts. Sound fair?

    Anne said: “Now, to reply to your previous post. For the 40th time……we do NOT believe that we can save ourselves! We know that our salvation depends ONLY upon the Savior. WE do, however, believe that “to believe”, which is what He has commanded us to do, encompasses more than just a passive belief. We believe, as did James, that faith without works is dead. We believe in keeping the commandments. We believe in obedience and WHEN we do these things, then we QUALIFY for grace. The Savior TOLD US that He required us to “believe”, and this is what we KNOW “believe” to mean.”

    I have heard the LDS here say several times that you do not believe you can save yourselves. You yourself said: “when we do these things(keep the commandments) then we QUALIFY for grace”

    What I am about to say, just so there isn’t a misunderstanding, are “my” personal thoughts on your statement and beliefs. They are not LDS thoughts on the statement. (Just so my thoughts aren’t taken as my misrepresenting official LDS doctrine)

    That said, here are my thoughts…

    Whatever “QUALIFIES” you for grace is actually what saves you. Think about that. Whatever you have to do, whatever qualifies you, that is what is saving you. That is the cause of grace being applied to you.

    Thoughts?

  182. July 20, 2011 at 10:21 pm

    Here are my thoughts:

    I believe that Jesus put a condition on salvation. You must believe. You must repent. You must be baptized.

    LDS take that seriously. Belief to us means, as it does to Peter, Paul, James and others, that we must have faith, love Him, serve Him and keep His commandments.

    In that sense, YES, we CONTRIBUTE to our salvation. IF we did righteous works, served, kept the commandments BUT still did not except Jesus Christ as our Savior through baptism and faith, then we WOULD NOT be saved.

    Salvation comes through Jesus Christ. This is the top theme of the Book of Mormon.

    It is there waiting for us…….we need to take it!

    I thought Shem’s college analogy was great.

    The gift of Eternal life is a free gift…..resurrection. The gift of Life Everlasting is conditional based on our acceptance of the challenge Jesus gave us: “Have faith and believe!”

    Something else I have noticed here. Some seem to think that the commandment to be perfect is not attainable. I believe that through Jesus Christ ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. I choose to believe Him and BELIEVE IN HIM. Perfection is therefore NOT a burden.

    One more thing. I know when I have been treated rudely. I calls them as I sees them! So play nice and I will, too!

    thanks,
    anne

  183. 183 Echo
    July 20, 2011 at 10:37 pm

    Anne,

    Yes that is exactly how I understand LDS doctrine also.

    We believe in faith, we believe in Baptism, we believe in repentance we believe in obedience to the commandments. We just don’t believe that any of these are “conditions” to salvation. We believe there are no “conditions” to salvation.

    We are saved by “grace alone”… through faith (not because of faith)

    We believe that our salvation from beginning to finish it all attributed to the work of Jesus alone and that it is already finished. We have certainty that we will have eternal life (our definition of eternal life is not “resurrection from the dead” but rather it means spending eternity in the place where Heavenly Father lives)

    Anne said: “Something else I have noticed here. Some seem to think that the commandment to be perfect is not attainable. I believe that through Jesus Christ ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. I choose to believe Him and BELIEVE IN HIM. Perfection is therefore NOT a burden.”

    We don’t believe perfection is possible…

    1 John 1:8 ” If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”

  184. July 21, 2011 at 3:26 am

    Echo,

    So, what do you think you have to DO for salvation? If the answer is “nothing, Jesus did it all”, then why would I (in your opinion) NOT be saved? Why would anyone NOT be saved?

    I don’t know if you saw my question about the Aborigine in Africa and where his salvation stands, but how about him? Does he have salvation?

    anne

  185. July 21, 2011 at 5:53 am

    Echo (and others),

    First, I want to address your many statements that the Lord gave commandments he knew we could not possibly keep. If that is true, then why this scripture?

    1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT GRIEVOUS.” (caps for emphasis).

    Second, I tire of the use of Paul’s epistles as the end-all of Jesus’ doctrine. He was writing letters that were sent to people who had already been taught the principles of salvation. If you notice throughout the all the epistles in the New Testament, the writer might dwell on only one element of salvation at a time. So in one letter, the emphasis might be on grace only, whereas in another, the verses spoke of good works.
    Here we have Paul driving home the fact that we will be judged by our works.

    1 Corinthians 3:8, “…and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”

    And here he says we must work out our own salvation. “Philippians 2:12, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

    14: “Do all things without murmurings and disputing; that ye may be blameless…”

    13-14, “Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”

    I would rather go directly to Jesus’ words for the complete picture.

    “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” Matthew 16:27

    If you do a word study on the Greek words used for “reward” throughout the scriptures, you will realize that the word in and of itself has to do with rendering something that was earned, worked for, and the like. A reward is never used in the sense of a gift given freely.

    You will be judged of your works…”and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life…”John 5:29

    I realize as I’m writing this, that we have stated these same things over and over. I feel sad for you that you cannot see the truth that is staring you in the face. I say that respectfully. It’s like beating a dead horse. We go around and around, prove to you with scripture, show you how the LDS doctrine is in harmony with the Bible, yet, you just go back to the same statements over and over…causing even the most kind person to lose their cool. Then, we regain our composure, just to jump right back into the same 3-ring circus you guys have created.

    If it weren’t for the fact that your ministry has set out to poison LDS members who might be weak in their faith, I wouldn’t even bother here. Because some have contacted me, I know I (and the other LDS here) have helped many already…I am thankful to have been a tool in the Lord’s hands to help them, but I feel the spirit tell me that I am done here.

    I won’t wish you well in your endeavors here, but will wish you well in life and hope that you will someday come to a fuller understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the beautiful Plan of Salvation, which is the Plan of Happiness that God has in prepared for ALL His children.

  186. 186 RLO
    July 21, 2011 at 6:05 am

    Shem;
    Anne;

    With mixed emotions and uncertainty, I provide this post to you both. Mixed emotions, because of a desire to communicate my thoughts to you both. Mixed emotions, because of a desire not to. With a heart that is heavy with uncertainty. Uncertainty, as I previously decided to terminate dialog due to the impasse that had been reached. Uncertainty, because I really don’t want to continue. Uncertainty, because I now am. Uncertain my words will be understood. And maybe, after much that has transpired, uncertain you are really going to try to understand me. But with mix emotions and uncertainty, I provide this post to you both.

    “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith ̶ and this (KJV uses “that”) not from yourselves, it is the gift of God ̶ not by works, so that no one can boast.”

    I stated: “You have the words “. . . and that . . .” as well as the words “. . . it is . . .” referring apparently to things that are not even found in this passage of scripture.”

    By this I meant that the words “this (NIV) / that (KJV)” and “it is” need to refer to a word that previously appeared in the passage ̶ that word being “faith.” What other word could it be? “Grace?” There would be no need for Paul to explain to the Ephesians that “grace” is not of themselves. But there certainly was a need for Paul to explain to the Ephesians that “faith” was not of themselves. Even today people try to take credit for their faith, failing to recognize that faith itself is a gift of God.

    Anne said: “I read Ephesians to mean this: For by grace we are saved through faith (in Christ, i assume); and that not of yourselves (meaning I can’t save myself); it is THE gift of God. (meaning the Gift of His Son that saves us).”

    . . . an interpretation which fails to identify specifically what previous word “this/that” and “it” are referring to. Hence my previous statement that they refer apparently to things not found in the passage.

    So I said: “If this is indicative of your techniques of interpretation for the clear words in Ephesians, if you can come to these conclusions from what you have read, then I am convinced that you, in your mind, are capable of interpreting absolutely anything to mean absolutely anything you want it to mean.”

    In other words, if the words, “this/that” and “it is” don’t have to refer to something previously found in the sentence, then they can pretty much refer to anything anyone wants them to refer to.

    And now, the sentence which seems to have generated the greatest objection:

    “Which means we’ve dipped below the minimum threshhold of intelligent communication.”

    First, what was intended by “. . .we’ve . . .” was not to refer to “Anne.” It was not an insult to “Anne.” It referred to “Anne and myself.” And what was intended by, “. . . minimum threshhold . . .” was that minimum requirements, such as agreement in the basic meaning of words, and agreement in the basic standards of grammar, are essential to effective communications. What was intended by “. . . intelligent. . .” was “effective.” I wish I had used the word “effective,” as it may have communicated better. So with these in mind, my statement can be understood to say, “Which means we’ve (Anne and myself) have slipped below the minimum threshhold of effective communication.”

    I went on to say: “Until we can agree to let plain words speak for themselves, I don’t see that we are going to accomplish anything through continued dialog. There is simply no sound basis for any further discussion.”

    There is a misperception that since we are both speaking English, we are communicating in the same language. But if we attach different meanings to words, if we don’t have the same rules regarding grammar, and if we don’t observe the same standards in sentence structure, what can we hope to accomplish through continued dialog? We are talking past each other. There really is simply no sound basis for any further discussion. Let’s save us all the frustration and accept the fact that we speak two completely different languages, two languages which ironically use so many words that are spelled the same, but in reality share so little in common meaning and usage.

    Yet, because of my attempt terminate further dialog, throughout the posts on the past two threads, I have been accused of being thin skinned, of having gone “ballistic,” of lacking a sense of humor, “of having limited intellect in comparison to superior mormon intellect, even of being a jerk, among many, many other things. To the best of my recollection, I have accused no one of any of these things.

    Anne. I have never accused you of being a jerk. Why have you accused me of being a jerk? Or is it only a statement you made in the heat of the moment? Is it a statement you would be willing to retract?

    And Shem. I have never suggested my intellect was superior and your intellect was inferior. I would consider it an extremely arrogant thing for me to say. You have your beliefs and your reasons for believing them. I have my beliefs and my reasons for believing them. And while we may never have a meeting of the minds regarding our respective beliefs, does this mean your intellect is superior and mine is inferior? Is this something you really believe? Or is it, also, only a statement you made in the heat of the discussion? And is it a statement you would also be willing to retract?

    RLO

  187. July 21, 2011 at 6:07 am

    the verse 14, is from Philippians 2:14…forgot to put it.

  188. 188 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 8:33 am

    Anne said: “So, what do you think you have to DO for salvation? If the answer is “nothing, Jesus did it all”, then why would I (in your opinion) NOT be saved? Why would anyone NOT be saved?
    I don’t know if you saw my question about the Aborigine in Africa and where his salvation stands, but how about him? Does he have salvation?”

    Let’s imagine there are two cakes, one is chocolate, the other is a white cake. They each represent two kinds or two ways for salvation.

    A)

    The chocolate cake represents a salvation based on meeting certain conditions…

    Conditions can include one or more of the following: faith, Baptism, repentance and obedience to the commandments etc..

    The cake itself represents a person who has met all the conditions. The icing on the cake represents God’s grace that is then put on top of the cake to make the cake complete or finished.

    This person spend their whole life working on making that cake so it can be iced.

    B)

    The white cake represents a salvation based on nothing a person does, no conditions…

    The cake itself and the icing represent God’s grace found through Jesus. This cake, this salvation, is already complete or finished. It was finished 2000+ years ago.

    This cake is handed to a person who then believes the cake is finished because it is finished. It wasn’t this person’s “faith” that completed this cake; this cake was already made, baked and iced. Faith simply took hold of the finished cake.

    This person spends their whole life serving and obeying God out of gratitude.

    ****

    Anne said: “If the answer is “nothing, Jesus did it all”, then why would I (in your opinion) NOT be saved? Why would anyone NOT be saved?”

    First of all, nobody can ever finish the chocolate cake so that it can then be iced. So anyone attempting to assemble a chocolate cake will be lost and receive no grace. (No unclean thing can enter God’s presence) Jesus said: “No one is good but God alone”

    We need the white cake to live with Heavenly Father. Anyone who does not believe in the white cake, does not receive it. They too will be lost and receive no grace, Those who believe, receive.

    It’s 100% grace or 100% Hell. It’s those on his right or those on his left. (Two eternal kingdoms, not more)

  189. 189 Kent
    July 21, 2011 at 9:00 am

    RLO, people who witness to Mormons always say to use the King James exclusively but when I read the passage in Ephesians you are referring to in the KJV as well as in several other translations i come to the same conclusion that while we are created for good works, we are only saved by the grace given to us by Jesus’ death on the cross and nothing else and saying we are saved by anything we do is boasting which the passage says not to do.

    I personally often use the NKJV which is easier to read than the KJV and here is the same passage from the NKJV.

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

  190. July 21, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Echo,

    so what of the Aborigine in deepest darkest Africa who never heard of Christ. Is he saved?

    Anne

  191. 191 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Anne, the bible states that all men will be without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

  192. 192 jbr
    July 21, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    Anne…
    Everyone has the right to have an opinion to a particular scripture verse…so no that in and of itself doesn’t mean you were out of line. I do though believe the entire conversation was getting a little more heated than it needed to be. I know I’m guilty at times of of a mentality of winning the argument vs. simply stating the factual truths.

    ====================================================================================

    ———————– > As for your question <——————————–

    Not knowing the intimate details of the situation …this is how I would explained it from my personal view as one whom have had my father die 4 years ago.

    Jesus was once told that Mary (his mother) and his brothers were looking for him. Jesus looking at his disciples replied: ….

    ————————–" “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” ————————– Matthew 12:48
    —– Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. ——- Matthew 12:49

    My Dad and I will not have the relationship in the same context as we did before.
    I am a brother to Jesus … Matthew 12:48-49
    My Dad is a brother to Jesus ….. Matthew 12:48-49

    For two people to share a common brother ( Matthew 12:48-49) means that all three are brothers.

  193. July 21, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Echo,

    IHe doesn’t read or write, he doesn’t even KNOW who Jesus is….Is he saved?

    anne

  194. July 21, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    Echo,

    “he” not IHe…

  195. July 21, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    Echo,

    that is why I am a Mormon. I wanted my DAD to be my DAD.

  196. 196 RLO
    July 21, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Thank you, Kent.

    Mark in his book discusses the predominant use of the KJV by Mormons, and in his seminar a few years ago at our church, he also encouraged use of the KJV when witnessing to Mormons. While all bible translation versions have their strengths and weaknesses, I believe the KJV (or NKJV) as well as the NIV are each fairly reliable translations. And even though it has its shortfalls, as all versions do, my preference is with the NIV. The NIV communicates in the language of today the way people speak today. And incidently (without making this a “version diversion”), the NIV happens to be based on a greater number of manuscript copies than the KJV was, due to subsequent discoveries. But both versions, the KJV and the NIV, are considered fairly reliable versions by most fairly minded people.

    Don’t you find it interesting though, that we are always called upon to meet mormons on their ground, with their preferred version? That’s hardly a compromise. And I question whether a witness to them with the KJV is likely to foster any measurably greater degree of respect from them than a witness to them with the NIV would. I have no objection to their use of the KJV. They should have no objection to someone else’s use of the NIV. Were I to continue posting, I would probably continue to use the NIV. It is an equally reliable translation, and in many respects, communicates more easily and effectively than the 1,600’s King’s English of the KJV does, as more exposure to it might actually help to demonstrate.

  197. 197 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Faith is a gift that comes from God, more passages…

    Romans 12:3 KJV “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    Romans 12:3 NIV ” For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

    Acts 18:27 “When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed .”

  198. 198 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Anne said: ” He doesn’t read or write, he doesn’t even KNOW who Jesus is….Is he saved?”

    All men will be without excuse

    Anne said: “that is why I am a Mormon. I wanted my DAD to be my DAD.”

    No problem with that in our theology.

  199. 199 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    “I wanted my DAD to be my DAD”

    However I do see a problem with that in your theology. One of you could end up in the celestial kingdom the other in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom based on what each of you has done in this life.
    In our theology, you would not be seperated from your Dad, both of you would spend eternity together and through faith alone, would enter the celestial kingdom.

  200. 200 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    Kent and RLO…

    I think the KJV is a great bible. It’s a wonderful bible for those who are very familiar with archaic English (outdated English). But for those who are not, it can potentially be difficult to understand. Some of the outdated words used in the KJV have varying definitions in our day than they did in the in the time that version was written or they were understood differently than we understand them today.

    I like the NIV because modern English is used and because of that reason, it’s much more simple for everyone to understand than the KJV. (I haven’t checked out the NKJV yet) :)

    I would hate to see someone, perhaps someone at a lower level of learning ability, not understanding the “truth” just because the Bible they were reading was so outdated, archaic and therefore difficult to understand. So I believe we serve our neighbor when we bring them the word from a modern english Bible rather than the old KJV which really no longer is serving our neighbor.

    I believe God wants truth to be easily understood by all, including and especially amongst the lower level of learning ability group for he treasures those people as well.

    However if a Mormon insisted on using only the old KJV, I would comply in my discussions with them in order to serve my neighbor but may give both the KJV and NIV passages at the same time. (When clarification is needed-Although the KJV does have some very clear passages even in our day)

  201. 201 shematwater
    July 21, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    RLO

    I will apologize. You are right that your wording was not the greatest and it conveyed the wrong idea. I think that I was more annoyed at ECHO and it carried over into what I said to you. I was annoyed at the idea that Anne’s statement wasn’t referring back to a previous noun in the verse, which is why I gave my explanation. I thought what she was saying was clear.

    So, what it comes down to is you see that (or this in the NIV) as referring back to faith, while we see it as referring back to salvation. The two create very different meanings for the verse, thus causing the difference in doctrine.
    Personally, when I read the verse the subject is not faith, but salvation. This is why I say that “that” and “it” are referring back to it.

    My only problem with this referring back to faith, thus making faith the gift from God, is that you then have to explain why some people believe and others don’t. This is a problem I have not heard a satisfactory answer for.
    If faith is given to us by God than why doesn’t everyone have faith?
    If everything required for salvation was done by Christ then why is anyone damned?

    The only satisfactory answer to either of these is that faith is not a gift, and salvation is dependent on us.

    As to the KJV vs. the NIV, I really couldn’t care less. I think that if you are the one out doing the “witnessing” it is courteous and more effective to use the same translation as those you are witnessing to, but it doesn’t really matter. Honestly, I just don’t like the NIV. I prefer the poetic style of the KJV, which I understand very well.

  202. 202 RLO
    July 21, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    Appreciated. Forgiven. Forgotten. Left behind. Let’s move on.

  203. 203 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Shem said: “My only problem with this referring back to faith, thus making faith the gift from God, is that you then have to explain why some people believe and others don’t. This is a problem I have not heard a satisfactory answer for.
    If faith is given to us by God than why doesn’t everyone have faith?
    If everything required for salvation was done by Christ then why is anyone damned?”

    The are a multitude of passages that answer these questions. Here are two examples…

    Acts 14:2 “But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.”

    Acts 19:9 “But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.”

  204. 204 RLO
    July 21, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    “I prefer the poetic style of the KJV, which I understand very well.”

    As in many cases, do I. The 23rd Psalm? It’s simply beautiful in the KJV. The NIV just doesn’t seem to do it justice.

  205. July 21, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    Echo,

    The Aborigine is not saved? Is that your answer?

    thanks,
    anne

  206. July 21, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    mark et al,

    Grace IS amazing……unless you are an Aborigine in Africa.

    ~Anne

  207. 207 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Anne, no that is not my answer. If he ends up “not” being saved, he will be without excuse.

  208. July 21, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    Echo,

    In your opinion, know what you know, is he saved? Can we know?

    anne

  209. July 21, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    Echo..part 2

    If this man dies and never hears the Gospel or the Savior’s name…..can he be saved? (maybe that makes my question a little clearer)

    anne

  210. 210 Echo
    July 21, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    Anne,

    “With God, all things are possible” (Mathew 19:26)

  211. July 22, 2011 at 12:33 am

    Echo,

    I feel like you are avoiding actually saying: “he is not saved.”

    and if the gospel of Jesus Christ is not relevant for EVERYONE….if it does not have the potential to reach everyone….then what good is it? What good is grace?

    ~anne

  212. 212 Echo
    July 22, 2011 at 1:17 am

    I am saying that he may or may not in the end be saved. It’s all in God’s hands.

    We know from scripture that God wants **all** men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-5) So obviously God will be at work in the world with this thought in mind.

    We know that all men will be without excuse if they are not saved (Romans 1:20)

    We know that God is present everywhere on earth and in heaven…

    Jeremiah 23:23-25 “Am I only a God nearby,” declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” declares the LORD. “Do not I fill heaven and earth?” declares the LORD.”

    We know that nothing is too hard for God (Jeremiah 32:17)

    We know that nothing can stop God or thwart his plans… Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.”

    One final verse that I can think of off the top of my head…

    Acts 17:26-28 ” From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’”

    Hope that helps answer your question.

  213. July 22, 2011 at 3:03 am

    Echo.

    Oh, I already have the answer…..I was just wondering what your answer would be :)

    anne

  214. 214 Echo
    July 22, 2011 at 3:40 am

    That’s what I meant. I hoped the information I gave you helped answer what our beliefs are. :)

  215. 215 jbr
    July 22, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Anne……..
    What happens to a person that dies and never hears the Gospel or the Savior’s name…..can he be saved?

    A:

    1) ….The Bible teaches that all human beings (Jesus being the only exception) are sinful before God and deserve only his wrath and punishment (Romans 3:9-19, Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1-4).

    2) ….. Scripture also makes it clear that there is no salvation apart from the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12).

    3) ….. Through faith in Jesus—and only through faith in Jesus—we have God’s forgiveness and are saved.
    ……… ” Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God ” (Romans 10:17)

    4) …… Unless this happens, he will be lost eternally (John 3:16, John 3:36).

  216. 216 Ralph Peterson
    July 22, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Q: What happens to a person that dies and never hears the Gospel or the Savior’s name…..can he be saved?

    A: Yes!

    Statement: 1) ….The Bible teaches that all human beings (Jesus being the only exception) are sinful before God and deserve only his wrath and punishment (Romans 3:9-19, Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1-4).

    Response: True, and totally consistence with LDS theology.

    Statement: 2) ….. Scripture also makes it clear that there is no salvation apart from the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12).

    Response: True, and totally consistence with LDS theology.

    Statement: 3) ….. Through faith in Jesus—and only through faith in Jesus—we have God’s forgiveness and are saved.
    ……… ” Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God ” (Romans 10:17)

    Response: True, and totally consistence with LDS theology.

    Statement: 4) …… Unless this happens, he will be lost eternally (John 3:16, John 3:36).

    Response: That conclusion is unsupported by the scriptures cited.

    John 3:16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    . . .
    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    ” . . . he that believeth not the Son . . .” clearly indicates that the individual DID hear the gospel and then REJECTED it. Those that haven’t heard the gospel cannot be included in either of these groups until AFTER they have heard the gospel. That is why the gospel is preached to the dead.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    So, then, the gospel is taught to the dead, so that they can be judged fairly. Of course it is only the LDS that accept these verses for what they clearly and plainly say.

  217. 217 Ralph Peterson
    July 22, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    I hadn’t noticed that before. Thanks for pointing it out.

  218. July 22, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    JBR,

    So….your #4 says that “unless this happens, he will be lost eternally”.

    Does that mean that if a man lives and dies and NEVER hears about the Gospel or The Savior then he will be lost for all eternity?

    thanks,
    Anne

  219. 219 shematwater
    July 22, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    ECHO

    Your verses do not give a satisfying answer.

    If faith is a gift from God, and nothing we do can effect that, as would be the case with this interpretation of Ephesians 2: 8, then how is it that we are able to reject the gift? It is not dependent on us in any way than no one should be without it.

    Quite honestly, the very fact that there are verses that show we do have an effect on our faith would contradict the idea given by this interpretation of the Ephesians verse.

    JBR

    I think Echo had a better answer to the question. From what I can tell he basically admits he doesn’t know but is willing to leave it in the hands of a just God.
    Your answer, on the other hand, seems more to toss God’s justice out the window. Simply put, if God is able to do anything, like the Bible teaches, than the fact that anyone lived without hearing the words of the gospel would be because God choose to withhold such from them. As such he has chosen to condemn them without even giving them the chance of salvation.

  220. July 24, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    JBR,

    Perhaps you didn’t see my post above?

    “JBR,

    So….your #4 says that “unless this happens, he will be lost eternally”.

    Does that mean that if a man lives and dies and NEVER hears about the Gospel or The Savior then he will be lost for all eternity?”

    If you have a minute would you please comment?

    thanks,
    Anne

  221. 221 Echo
    July 24, 2011 at 10:18 pm

    Shem said: “If faith is a gift from God, and nothing we do can effect that, as would be the case with this interpretation of Ephesians 2: 8, then how is it that we are able to reject the gift? It is not dependent on us in any way than no one should be without it.”

    God gives us the gift of faith but he doesn’t believe for us. Faith can be resisted. In the same way Mormons resist the message of the gospel we bring.

  222. 222 jbr
    July 24, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Anne,
    Faith comes from hearing and hearing th eword of God.
    If one does not hear, one does not have faith.

    That is why there is an urgency about “go into all the world and preach” …….. if there is a rubber stamb at the end, Christ wouldn’t have made it a command.

    The lie that is humanistic is that God wouldn’t dare do Matthew 25:41-46.
    .
    The lie is that people aren’t seperated into the two different groups prior to any interaction between God and people.
    .
    People are held to their eternal existence based on whether they believed or not. John 3:16 — John 3:36
    .

  223. 223 jbr
    July 24, 2011 at 11:38 pm

    Explaination:
    “The lie is that people aren’t seperated into the two different groups prior to any interaction between God and people.”

    This is refering to Matthew 25:41-46.

  224. July 25, 2011 at 2:56 am

    JBR<

    you said, "“The lie is that people aren’t seperated into the two different groups prior to any interaction between God and people.”

    I am sorry, but that isn't very clear to me. Whose lie?

    Is there no hope for someone who doesn't even know Jesus Christ exists? How can that possibly be his fault?

    thanks,
    anne

  225. July 25, 2011 at 2:57 am

    Echo,

    In the same way you resist the message we bring?

  226. 227 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Clearly if “Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God.
    If one does not hear, one does not have faith”, then for God to be just ALL must get the opportunity to hear, INCLUDING those that didn’t get the chance while living. THAT is why the gospel is preached to the dead, (as ONLY the LDS preach) as the Bible clearly describes.

    1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

  227. 228 jbr
    July 25, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    Whose lie ….. Satan’s.
    When you read the revelation from Jesus, people are immediately separated in the two groups (Matthew 25:31-32).

    Satan tells differently.
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    ” Hope for those who don’t know Jesus?”

    Jesus and the OT prophets made it very clear …….

    1) A person is an enemy of God at conception (Original sin) ..Psalm 51:5

    2) .. All the righteous acts are like filthy rags (more precisely used tampons) …. Isaiah 64:6

    3) … “every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.” Romans 3:19

    4) …. the severity of punishment will be determined ….. Luke 12:46-47

    ———- How can it be his fault ? ———– ( i.e.—- “is it fair” —————)

    2 Timothy 4:8 …. the Lord is the righteous Judge

    Romans 2:1-3 …. God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

    John 8:16 ….. my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father

    John 12:48 …. “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.”

    John 12:48 KJV – He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
    ……………………… hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken,
    ……………………… the same shall judge him in the last day.

  228. 229 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    1) A person is an enemy of God at conception (Original sin) ..Psalm 51:5

    The adulterous murderer David trying to justify his sins. Sorry, but the ravings of such a wicked man are not reliable for doctrine.

    Plus, it is in conflict with this from the Apostle Paul.
    1 Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Sorry, but according to Paul, sinning is a choice.

    2) .. All the righteous acts are like filthy rags (more precisely used tampons) …. Isaiah 64:6

    Nothing like pulling a verse OUT of context.
    Those “righteous acts” are not real righteous acts but acts of wicked apostates which they claim are good.

    Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
    5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: . . .

    Clearly, God has great blessings for the obedient. But for the wicked it is a different story.

    . . . behold, thou art wroth; FOR WE HAVE SINNED: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
    6 But WE ARE ALL AS AN UNCLEAN THING, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; AND OUR INIQUITIES, like the wind, HAVE TAKEN US AWAY.
    7 And THERE IS NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, THAT STIRRETH UP HIMSELF TO TAKE HOLD OF THEE: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, BECAUSE OF OUR INIQUITIES.

    Sorry, but the wicked don’t do “righteousnesses”. But they do lie about it.

    John 12:48 KJV – He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
    ……………………… hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken,
    ……………………… the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Well, for one to reject Him they MUST FIRST hear about Him. Therefore the Gospel will be preached TO EVERYONE, even those that didn’t hear it while in mortality.

    Also, God delegates judgment to others (men) as He wills.

    Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

  229. July 25, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    JBR,

    was that filthy rag comment really necessary? gross!

  230. 231 shematwater
    July 25, 2011 at 5:22 pm

    It seems to me that JBR is espousing the doctrine of Predestination; that all of us were selected to be saved or damned before the world was created and there is nothing we can do about it.

    Fine, but please excuse me and others if we reject the notion.

  231. 232 jbr
    July 25, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    Anne,
    The prophet used the term filthy menstrual rags. My grandmother (when very young) would talk about how there used to be a time when women would hang (after being washed) to dry small strips of cloths.

    That was the revelation to the prophet that all our righteous acts are that gross to God.
    ____________________________________________________________

    Shem,
    No I wasn’t speaking directly to predestination. I was speaking to the doctrine that refutes that people are intuitively good and that people make it into for any excuse that seems rational.

    It totally up to you to reject it … but it still remains the revealed truth.
    You and others apparrently arbitrarily determine what truth is and have decided to have a need for other “revelations” so as to reject others in order to make oneself a co-savior ….. or a god.

    _______________________________________________________________

    Ralph….
    Isaiah 64:6 ” are not real righteous acts but acts of wicked apostates which they claim are good. ” …………

    Every person who includes their own righteousess or attempts to prove themself worthy for salvation is a wicked apostate.

  232. 233 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    Not according to Jesus or Paul. (Must I cite those verses AGAIN?)

  233. 234 jbr
    July 25, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    Ralph,
    No you don’t need to. One time is enough for you to show the incorrect understanding you hold.

    You’re in the wrong choir assembly here. You should be with the choir that believes that grace is Jesus giving you that big ol’ ladder to climb ….. over and over and over. Where forgiveness is conditional and where you get wives in the afterlife to impregnate so others can someday worship you ….. just like Heavenly Father became.

  234. 235 Ralph Peterson
    July 25, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    So, you don’t believe Jesus (or Paul)?

    Well, then, there is not much we can really discuss then.

  235. July 26, 2011 at 12:39 am

    JBR,

    I am still waiting for an answer to this:

    “Is there no hope for someone who doesn’t even know Jesus Christ exists? How can that (never having the chance to know Christ) possibly be his fault?”

    thanks,
    anne

  236. 237 RLO
    July 26, 2011 at 1:57 am

    “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
    Romans 1:19-20.

    In order to even ask your question, you must first dismiss this passage of God’s word as not being true.

    But if you allow this passage to stand as true, then how can it not be his fault?

  237. 238 Echo
    July 26, 2011 at 3:09 am

    Again, he will be without excuse for this reason as well…

    Acts 17:26-28 ” From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’”

  238. 239 Kent
    July 26, 2011 at 8:13 am

    Anne said, “JBR,

    I am still waiting for an answer to this:

    “Is there no hope for someone who doesn’t even know Jesus Christ exists? How can that (never having the chance to know Christ) possibly be his fault?”

    thanks,
    anne”

    I don’t think that anyone here is saying that those folks automatically go to hell because they have never heard of Chirst. Chirstian missionaries have spoken of finding people in the far reaches of the earth who say, when they hear the gospel, that they have been waiting for someone to tell them who the true God is and they know right off that Jesus is who they were waiting on and I believe, that even if no one reaches such folks, that somehow those who were waiting on the true God and who don’t do things such as pagan rituals like human sacrifices and don’t worship mutiple false gods that are an abomination to God will go to heaven and be with Heavenly Father and Christ without having to climb the ladder to be deemed worthy someday to be there.

    What some of the people here are talking about such people being without excuse is people can see the hand of the one and only true God in God’s magnificent creation.

    I think the following passage sheds some light on the subject that whoever more is given, such as knowledge of who Jesus is, more is expected and whoever less is given, those who have never heard who Christ is, less is expected. I believe that those in the far reaches of the earth who are waiting on who the true God is can be counted on as being good and faithful servants waiting on their master’s coming even if they haven’t heard the name of Jesus Christ.

    Luke 12:46-48

    46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
    47And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

  239. 240 Kent
    July 26, 2011 at 8:36 am

    JBR said,

    “Ralph,
    No you don’t need to. One time is enough for you to show the incorrect understanding you hold.

    You’re in the wrong choir assembly here. You should be with the choir that believes that grace is Jesus giving you that big ol’ ladder to climb ….. over and over and over. Where forgiveness is conditional and where you get wives in the afterlife to impregnate so others can someday worship you ….. just like Heavenly Father became.”

    My question is, if Mormons do believe that men can have mulitple wives in the afterlife to impregnate, why would God condone men breaking one of His commandments by commiting adultery in the afterlife by having relations with mulitple wives?

    God is a Holy God and even if it is possible to be married in the afterlife, wouldn’t He want men to be faithful to just one wife?

  240. 241 jbr
    July 26, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    Anne….
    I can only answer your question based on what we know …not what we wish it will be.

    The Bible teaches:

    1) A person is an enemy of God at conception (Original sin) ..Psalm 51:5

    2) All are sinful before God (except Jesus) and deserve only his wrath and punishment ..Romans 3:9-19, Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1-4.

    3) … “every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.” Romans 3:19

    4) Faith only comes by hearing the word, and hearing only the word of God .. Romans 10:17

    .
    .
    … I have yet to read where Jesus revealed there is an exception

    ………………….. “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish” …………………
    ………………….. “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life” ……………..
    ………………….. “Through him everyone who believes is justified ” ……………………
    ………………….. “the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” …….
    ………………….. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life ” ……………………
    ………………….. ” Whoever believes in him is not condemned” ………………
    ………………….. “Verily verily (I tell you the truth), whoever hears and believes has eternal life…….
    ………………….. “I tell you the truth, … they that hear shall live” ………………

    To say that Jesus offers an exception to this …… is not found.
    .
    Jesus does reveal about not believing:
    .
    ……………. “whoever does not believe will be condemned” …………………….
    ……………. “whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed” ………….
    ……………. “whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” …………….
    ……………. “Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed” …..

    To say that Jesus offers an exception to this ….. is not found.

    Mormonism’s way of getting around this is offering a different gospel that Jesus did not.

    …………………………………. Matthew 25:46…………………………………………….
    …………“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”……………..(NIV)
    ………… “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”…. (KJV)

  241. 242 shematwater
    July 26, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    KENT

    It is not adultery if you are married.

    To Everyone Else

    I think you misapply the verses that speak to the evidence of God in creation. You do not take into account human psychology. There is evidence of a great creation, yes. But all it proves is that there is a God. So, one may believe that it is the Muslim religion that is true, and this will still fit the evidence. One may believe the Jewish traditions, and this still fits the evidence. One may even believe the plurality of gods in the Greek, Norse, or Egyptian myths, and this still fits the evidence.
    All the evidence can truly do is prove the existence of a creator, not who that creator is. There has to be something beyond this evidence to convince people that Christ is that creator. What Anne is asking is, if this additional evidence is not provided how is it a persons fault in reaching the wrong conclusion based on incomplete evidence? It is like failing a student for not passing a calculus test when all you have taught him is basic algebra.

    I think Kent had the best explanation, and whether he likes it or not it is exactly what is taught by the LDS church.
    D&C 137: 7-9 “Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
    Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
    For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.”

    Yes, we still believe that certain ordinances must be performed, which is why we believe in and practice work for the dead. But the basic concept is the same. Those who are searching for the One True and Living God, whether they find him in this life or in the next, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.
    Anything less than this destroys the justice of God, and thus cannot be true.

  242. 243 shematwater
    July 26, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    RLO

    You use the NIV in quoting Romans 1: 19-20. I have to say that I think this holds a much different meaning than the KJV.

    Romans 1: 18-21
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

    In the KJV we see that Paul is speaking of those who have heard the word and rejected it, even given the evidence before them. In verse 18 he speaks to the wicked who “hold the truth in unrighteousness.” This is a reference to those who have heard the gospel, but reject it in favor of their wickedness. Then we read in verse twenty that “they are without excuse.” This would not indicate all men, but the men previously mentioned, or those who know the truth and reject it. This is supported by verse twenty-one, when it is said “when they knew God, they glorified him not as God” indicating again that they had a knowledge of God.

    So, what Paul is saying is that those who know the truth and still reject it, preferring to remain in their unrighteousness, will be without excuse, for everything in existence is a testimony to the power of God. They will not even be able to say “we had no evidence that this was true” for it has been given.
    However, it is not talking about those men who never knew the gospel, and never knew God.

    Thus Anne’s question can be asked and answered without dismissing anything that Paul has said.

    This is just one of those times that the NIV gives a different meaning to a verse than the KJV, and is one of the reasons we generally do not use it.

  243. 244 Kent
    July 26, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    Just a speculation on my part, but it seems if the part about Mormon men having multiple wives to impreganate in the afterlife, if in fact their church teaches this, that it is not told to people Mormon missionaries talk to is because the Mormons view us as having not studied enough or progressed enough to properly understand more advanced teachings, that these teachings are above a new recruits pay grade so to speak.

    But really, we don’t need any other teaching other than the Bible and there is nothing in the Bible about men having mulitple wives to impregnate in the afterlife and that is all the teachings we need and we can spend a lifetime learning them.

    The same thing with talking with us about the goings on in their temple as, again, we don’t have studying or progression towards the celestial kingdom to be able to understand these sacred ways.

    However, things like the special underwear that they wear, as i understand it, are said to be sacred but I believe venerating such items is idol worship because as Christians we are to focus on Jesus and nothing else.

    I know I will be seen as not having the understanding to talk about such things as the temple garments but, if in fact they are to protect people from demons, why would they be needed as wherever believers are gathered in His name He is there with them so if the temple is truly of Him, there wouldn’t need to be any special garments as demons flee from His presence and even when believers are alone they can rebuked demons in Jesus’ name, again there is no need for any special garments.

    Matthew 18:20

    20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

  244. 245 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    So, it is your argument that Jesus Christ is made plain to everybody by virtue of those verses?

    That is in direct conflict with this,
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Found in the very same epistle, no less.

  245. 246 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    There is plenty of evidence in nature that there is indeed a divine being (God). But there is no evidence provided in nature that He has a Son, or that there is a Gospel.

  246. 247 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    This is just JBR exaggerating aspects of LDS theology. He doesn’t understand that marriages, to be bound in heaven, MUST be bound on earth, in mortality. Sorry, but it isn’t like a man gets to heaven and is suddenly given a gaggle of women for an orgy, like he is trying to make it.

    “God is a Holy God. . . ” true,
    “. . . and even if it is possible to be married in the afterlife,. . . ” it isn’t so your premise is flawed.

  247. 248 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    This is just JBR exaggerating aspects of LDS theology in a way to misrepresent it. Nothing new, about that approach. It is CLASSIC anti-Mormon.

    OBVIOUSLY we do need more than the Bible, because, OBVIOUSLY the Bible is insufficient to know true doctrine. Even the Bible admits this.

    “However, things like the special underwear that they wear, as i understand it, are said to be sacred but I believe venerating such items is idol worship because as Christians we are to focus on Jesus and nothing else.”

    LOL, You know, one could make the claim that you guys “venerate” the Bible to the point of Bibliolatry, so you might want to be careful with this one.

  248. July 26, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    JBR,

    so, basically the answer is : you don’t know if he will be saved? then how do you know that I am NOT saved?

    ~anne

  249. 250 shematwater
    July 26, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    KENT

    Interesting speculations. You are right, in that such things are not generally discussed as most people are not able to fully grasp their meaning, and thus to teach them to the unprepared would only makes things worse for them.
    Speaking of multiple wives in heaven, there was a time when I was amused at the insulting misrepresentation of this that people are now using in this thread. Right now I am just insulted.

    You reference JBR when he says “where you get wives in the afterlife to impregnate so others can someday worship you”
    First, a man is not just given wives to impregnate. We are married, eternal and equal partners in the relationship throughout eternity. Yes we will have children, but our wives will also be working with us in creating planets and galaxies, in planning the progression of our children, and all other things that go along with the existence of divine families. It will be much the same as it is here on earth, with men and women married for their mutual benefit, each working to ensure the safety and growth of their children.

    Now, concerning what the Bible says; in truth it never actually contradicts this doctrine, and support for it can be found. I do not want to get into a large discussion on this. My only point is that the Bible does not give an answer to everything, and so to seek answers in other sources is not a bad thing.

    As for the Garments, this concept is very old, even if it is not mentioned directly in the New Testament. Under the Law of Moses men were commanded to wear certain types of clothes (like the fringe on their garments) to show devotion to God and remind them of who they worshiped. The Priests all had special garments made, through revelation, which they had to wear when officiating in the Temple.
    Even before Moses we have a record of Joseph and his colored coat, which is thought to be a symbol of his authority as the heir to Jacob.
    The use of sacred garments is not unknown to the people of God, and so for us to use it is not contradicted in the Bible.
    As to their power to protect, this is not entirely accurate. In the Temple we enter into certain covenants with God, and in doing we promise to wear the garment as a symbol of our faith in Christ. By keeping this covenant God has promised his protection to us against temptation (I am not sure where you get the idea of actual demons). This is very similar to the fringes worn by ancient Israel, and the protection is more of a reminder. After all, if a man or woman is considering certain actions when they see the garment and are reminded of their covenant they are less likely to engage in that act.

    Now, speaking of actual demons or even just general protection, no the Garments are not necessary. They are simply an added defense. It is like putting on a bullet proof vest when you already have a bullet proof shield in front of you.

  250. 251 RLO
    July 26, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    Unbelief constantly seeks to pit one passage of God’s word against another, and in the end, with a heart of arrogance, throws them both out.

    Belief seeks to understand God’s word, and with a heart of humility says, “Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.”

    No answer will ever satisfy you, Ralph, so long as you seek the former rather than the latter. But when you read all the relevant passages without a jaundice eye, I believe the answers will be given to you.

    I wish you the best in your quest for the truth.

  251. 252 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 6:35 pm

    Much psychological projection in that post.

  252. 253 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    I have studied the New Testament deeply and thoroughly for many years now. I don’t find your theology nor anything that conflicts with LDS theology. So, why should I leave what I know the Bible to teach for your misunderstanding of it?

  253. 254 Kent
    July 26, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    Shem said, “Speaking of multiple wives in heaven, there was a time when I was amused at the insulting misrepresentation of this that people are now using in this thread. Right now I am just insulted.

    You reference JBR when he says “where you get wives in the afterlife to impregnate so others can someday worship you”
    First, a man is not just given wives to impregnate. We are married, eternal and equal partners in the relationship throughout eternity. Yes we will have children, but our wives will also be working with us in creating planets and galaxies, in planning the progression of our children, and all other things that go along with the existence of divine families. It will be much the same as it is here on earth, with men and women married for their mutual benefit, each working to ensure the safety and growth of their children.”

    Notice how the Bible in Genesis 2 says a man shall cleave to his wife and it doesn’t say wives and the Bible says in 1 Corinthian 7, that every man have his own wife and it doesn’t say wives so even if there were such a thing as marriage in the after life, as the Bible says that there is no marriage in the resurrection (the afterlife), So again, I don’t believe God would want a man to break one of His commandments by having sexual relations with someone other than his wife(singular)

    Genesis 2:4
    24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 7:2-3
    2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

    Here is Webster’s dictionary’s defi nition of adultery:

    adul•tery
    noun \ə-ˈdəl-t(ə-)rē\
    plural adul•ter•ies

    “voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; an act of adultery.”

    I find it interesting that here in California the Mormon Church fought hard, along side some of us as well, to define for our society that Marriage as an institution between one man and one woman and one woman and one man during the 2008 campaign to pass proposition 8. So all the way through the fabric of our society it shows that one man should have one wife not wives. So yes, anything else is adultery.

  254. 255 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    Well that didn’t work.

  255. 256 Ralph Peterson
    July 26, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    One more time,
    I posted this earlier, but due to links to web sites it is sitting in moderation. So I post it here without the hyperlinks.
    —-
    And yet is was God who gave more than one wife to Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon. The Bible even provides instructions for the treatment of these other wives (and their children).

    Polygamy is so well established in the Bible that some non LDS Christian groups believe in it as well.

    triple w dot christianpolygamy dot com

    triple w dot biblicalfamilies dot org/?gclid=CJudt-r9n6oCFQ5EgwodWHCs6w

  256. 257 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    Anne…..
    I have yet to read where Jesus revealed there is any exceptions … which means I know the answer:

    ………………….. “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish” …………………
    ………………….. “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life” ……………..
    ………………….. “Through him everyone who believes is justified ” ……………………
    ………………….. “the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” …….
    ………………….. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life ” ……………………
    ………………….. ” Whoever believes in him is not condemned” ………………
    ………………….. “Verily verily (I tell you the truth), whoever hears and believes has eternal life…….
    ………………….. “I tell you the truth, … they that hear shall live” ………………

    The answer is there isn’t any exceptions. To say that there is, goes beyond scripture.

  257. 258 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    The answer is there isn’t any exceptions. To say that there is, goes beyond scripture. (scripture that is only found within the Bible)

    Speaking to your specific scenerio … no he will not be saved.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————-

    How do I know you will not…?

    Because of Mormon doctrine.

    Mormonism denies who God is
    Mormonism denies who Jesus is
    Mormonism redefines what grace is which is different than what Bible speaks of
    Mormonisism places forgiveness as conditional and revocable by God
    Mormonism places eternal exaltation contingent on marraige
    Mormonism has women eternally subservient to men

  258. 259 Ralph Peterson
    July 27, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    You cannot believe or disbelieve in someone you haven’t heard about. And you cannot hear unless a preacher is sent.

  259. 260 Ralph Peterson
    July 27, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    Nice sophomoric rant. Too bad you aren’t really addressing anything, but just regurgitating anti-Mormon drivel.

  260. 261 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    Too bad Ralph that yours have been closed and all you can do show you contempt.

    And since when do you speak for Anne… or is she your wife ( or one of the wives)

  261. 262 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 8:35 pm

    It should ahve read:
    “Too bad Ralph that your (eyes & ears) have been closed and all you can do show you contempt.”

  262. 263 Echo
    July 27, 2011 at 8:46 pm

    SIN is the only “power” that Ralph has to defend his beliefs.

    Ralph is unfamiliar with the power that comes from the cross.

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God”

  263. 264 Ralph Peterson
    July 27, 2011 at 8:49 pm

    Just more juvenile drivel. Until you can carry on an adult conversation, I will ignore your posts.

  264. 265 Ralph Peterson
    July 27, 2011 at 8:52 pm

    Echo,

    You are reverting back to your incivility. No need for further exchange with you.

  265. July 27, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    JBR,

    thanks for that answer. THAT is the reason I am a Mormon! You have outlined it perfectly.
    MY SAVIOR would NOT leave a poor, helpless man to just die and go to hell!

    I am grateful for the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with it’s crystal, clear truths that teach that EVERY man, woman and child is important to the Savior and that EVERY ONE will hear and have the chance to accept or reject Jesus Christ and His Gospel. God and our Savior are NO RESPECTERS of persons!

    tata….oooops, there I go again!

    Anne,

    and no, Ralph is not my husband. But he is incredibly intelligent and I am grateful for his imput on this blog. I really think I will bow out now. After some icky, gross comments and the anti-Mormon polygamy rants, I am pretty well fed up and grossed out!

    Keep up the good fight, Shem, Kate and Ralph!!

  266. 267 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 10:29 pm

    The great thing about having the faith like a little child … is that it has no respector of whom the truth is said to.

    You sire… can”t handle the truth. Therefore you need to somehow project a superiority mentality to hid the wanton rejection and opposition.

    By the way, if you really think Jesus offers a ladder…show us were Jesus said that it wasn’t a extenstion ladder.

    I bet just for you Ralph because of Mormon’s definition of grace and mercy….you’re going to have an uncountless extentions

  267. 268 jbr
    July 27, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    Anne…
    Thanks for admitting that Mormonism is a belief that makes God into YOUR making……and the eventual making a god of yourself.

  268. 269 Ralph Peterson
    July 28, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    Annemckee,

    Thanks for your kind words. This is rather typical. When shown to be in error on one topic, the anti-Mormons quickly run to the same old distortions and drivel.

    They, unfortunately, are very unaware of history of the early church and the words of the church fathers, like these from Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers (London: Oxford University Press, 1956, repr. 1958). Each author’s name, and relevant page numbers in the book are given after each quote. Emphasis added:
    . . . and they have received the title of “gods,” since they are destined to be enthroned with the other “gods” who are ranked next below the Saviour. (Clement of Alexandria, p. 244.)

    . . . the Word, I say, of God, who became man just that you might learn from a man how it may be that man should become God. (Clement of Alexandria, p. 244.)

    The Son in his kindness generously imparted deification to others . . . who are transformed through him into gods, as images of the prototype . . . the Word is the archetype of the many images. (Origen, p. 274.)

    For the Word was not degraded by receiving a body, so that he should seek to “receive” God’s gift. Rather he deified what he put on; and, more than that, he bestowed this gift upon the race of men.(Athanasius, p. 384.)

    . . . If the works of the Godhead had not taken place by means of the body, man would not have been made divine. (Athanasius, p. 399.)

    The Word was made man in order that we might be made divine. (Athanasius, p. 404)

    Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are the sons of the Most High.” . . . For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality. (Irenaeus, Against Heretics, 4.38.)

    But he himself that justifies also defies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. “For he has given them power to become the sons of God” [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” (Augustine, On the psalms, 50.2.)


    The following quote comes from The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, which is a reputable (non-LDS) book. Notice that this doctrine traces down to the tenth century:
    Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is “made in the image and likeness of God”. . . . It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g. Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4), and it is essentially the teaching of both St Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8.9–17; Gal.4.5–7), and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21–23).

    The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, “if the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods” (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and becomes the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats St Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons “by participation” (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: “Deification, briefly, is the encompasing and fulfilment of all times and ages”, . . . and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, “He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his frieds, face to face.” . . .

    Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification should be the goal of every Christian.

  269. 270 shematwater
    July 30, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    KENT

    The Webster definition doesn’t change anything. A man only commits adultery by having relations with a woman he is not married to. Thus, if he is married to two women he cannot commit adultery with either one.

    Yes, I know the the Genesis verse, and the Corinthian verse. Neither one actually contradicts Plural Marriage. A man is to cleave to his wife, and woman to her husband. So, if a man has three wives, as long as he cleaves to each of them as his wife and they to him he has fulfilled this. A man who cleaves to his “wives” is not following this, for he is not allowing the mutual and individual relationship between himself and each wife, but is trying to maintain a more collective relationship, which is not right.

    As to Corinthians, I would point out that in the New Testament time polygamy had but fairly well outlawed by the Romans, who were the political government of the day. As Christ has taught us to “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” it is perfectly understandable that the church did not practice plural marriage. As such, any command to have only one wife would seem to be in line with the idea of obeying civil laws more than actual commands of God.

  270. 271 shematwater
    August 1, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    ECHO

    It seems that pride and arrogance are all you have to defend your beliefs. Every time Ralph or someone else actually wins an argument you try to turn it around by resorting to “they are a sinner, so I have really one.”

    We understand the power of the cross very well, and recognize that you see it as foolishness, just as Paul predicted. After all, you are perishing in your false beliefs.


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