15
Aug
11

ONE WAY OF COMPARING MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE

There are many different ways Mormonism and the Bible can be compared.  One way is looking at how each describes the size of the gap between God and humans and then how that gap is bridged.

Very briefly, Mormonism makes that a relatively small gap.  It does that in two ways.  First it teaches about a God whom humans can understand.  The God of Mormonism was once a man, is now an exalted man, limited by a body – not omnipresence, omniscient, etc.   Secondly, Mormonism has a high view of humans.  We were God’s spirit children; sometimes referred to as gods in embryo.  We have the divine potential to become gods ourselves.  Both of these factors, a God that once was a man and humans that become gods, create a gap between God and humans that is not that great.

The Bible teaches something totally different.  It describes a God that is far beyond human comprehension.  He has no beginning and no end.  He is omnipresence, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.  His very nature of three distinct persons but one being boggles our minds.  Secondly, the Bible speaks in stark terms about the devastation sin has wrought on the human race.  It describes people as blinded by sin, dead in sin, enemies of God.  It says that, “all have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:12)  The result is that the Bible pictures the gap between God and humans as huge.

All this is foundational to the main and pressing question of how this gap can be bridged. Mormonism teaches that bridging this gap depends on the efforts of both God and man – something that it says is possible because the gap is not that big.  “For we know that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.”  (2 Nephi 25:23)  This doesn’t even describe a picture of two parties meeting half-way.  Rather this describes humans taking the initiative, doing all they can, expending all their effort to bridge the gap – and then, only after they have exhausted all their resources, does God get involved and help out.

Again the Bible teaches something totally different.  Because the gap between God and man is so huge, it takes divine initiative and divine effort to bridge.  Not only that, but humans couldn’t do anything because they were dead in sin, “they have together become worthless.”  Therefore God did it all.  Jesus came not as a teacher or example to show people what they had to do to save themselves.  Rather he came as a substitute to do it all for us.  He kept all the commandments perfectly and gave us the credit for it.  He died a horrible death as payment for our sins.  He didn’t wait until we had expended all our effort – he didn’t meet us halfway – he came all the way to us and did everything to bridge the gap.  “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”  (Ephesians 2:8-9)

To sum it up:  Mormonism puts much of the burden of bridging the gap on humans.  The Bible gives God all the credit for completely bridging the gap himself.  To God be all praise and glory.

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66 Responses to “ONE WAY OF COMPARING MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE”


  1. 1 jbr
    August 16, 2011 at 7:00 am

    Yes praise be to God.

    Jesus revealed the message … I am the way the truth and the life … N O B O D Y come to the Father except through me [Jesus].Being the usual Mormons will be here ….

    Jesus didn’t reveal … except through me plus anything you might happen to have contributed
    Jesus didn’t reveal … except unless you haven’t joined this particular “restored” group
    Jesus didn’t reveal … except you fancy yourself as a “good debater”
    Jesus didn’t reveal … expect unless you don’t get a certificate from Joseph Smith
    Jesus didn’t reveal … except unless you haven’t proven yourself enough worthy
    Jesus didn’t reveal … except unless you didn’t use your agency

  2. 2 Kent
    August 16, 2011 at 7:34 am

    John 14:6:

    “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    Jesus is the only way to God the Father and heaven and there is no other!

    Contrast that with the out and out heresy below.

    No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior as a passport to their entrance into the mansions where God and Christ are—I can not there without his consent….He reigns there as supreme, a being in his sphere, capacity, calling, as God does in Heaven …(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 6:229, 7:289)

    I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me and with Joseph Smith’s permission. It just doesn’t sound right!

    Joseph Smith has nothing to do with our salvation, period!

    Smith had his own standing with God to be concerned about when he died so i doubt very strongly he was thinking one minute about my standing with God, your standing with God, or anyone else’s standing with God.

  3. 3 Kent
    August 16, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    My point in bringing up Joseph Smith here is to show that mainstream Christianity as taught in the Bible and Mormonism are two very different belief systems as either it is all about what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again from the dead on the third day or it isn’t about Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day.

    My question is to Mormons is, did Smith die and rise again to take away the sins of the world? The obvious answer is no, of course not. So if not, than how could he possibly have anything to do with whether or not we get to be with Heavenly Father when we die?

    This is the gospel that Paul received and risked his life to spread and what he ended up being a martyr
    for, note, there is nothing about Joseph Smith or anyone else dying and rising from the dead and the gospel shown below is complete and there is nothing that needed to be restored to it and it just doesn’t mean, if you have faith and believe it with all your heart, that you just live in the afterlife and maybe someday get to be with Heavenly Father but that you can be assured right now, here on earth, that you will be with Him forever!

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  4. 4 Ralph Peterson
    August 16, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    “First it teaches about a God whom humans can understand.”

    True. We do not accept the “incomprehensible” God of the Trinity. After all Jesus taught,
    (John 17:3) “And this is life eternal, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    “The God of Mormonism was once a man, is now an exalted man, limited by a body – not omnipresence, . . .”

    What is the problem here? Don’t you guys believe that Jesus “was once a man, is now an exalted man”? He does have a body of “flesh and bones”, the Bible makes this very clear. Is He limited by this body? No!!!!!!! Even He says that (Matt. 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. If the resurrected Christ has “all power”, then how can He be “limited by a body”?

    ” . . . omniscient, etc.”

    Factually incorrect.
    Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, FOR I KNOW THEM ALL.

    “Secondly, Mormonism has a high view of humans.”

    As did Jesus.

    “We were God’s spirit children; sometimes referred to as gods in embryo. We have the divine potential to become gods ourselves.”

    As the Apostle Paul taught,
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD:
    17 And if children, then heirs; HEIRS OF GOD, AND JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    “Both of these factors, a God (as in JESUS CHRIST) that once was a man and humans that become gods, create a gap between God and humans that is not that great.” (note my clarification).

    Even Jesus said,
    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

  5. 5 Ralph Peterson
    August 16, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    “First it teaches about a God whom humans can understand.”

    As did Jesus.
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

  6. 6 Kent
    August 16, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Mormons, I have posted all of Romans 10. I hope you take the time to read it and take it to heart. Notice these passages says the Jews had not submitted to the righteouness of God by establishing their own righteousness and that they were disobedient. Isn’t grace, after all we can do, establishing our own righteousness?

    As I said, it is either all about what Jesus did on the cross or it isn’t about this at all.

    Romans 10

    1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 FOR THEY BEING IGNORANT OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED THEMSELVES UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, an d by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I HAVE STRETCHED FORTH MY HANDS UNTO A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE.

  7. 7 Echo
    August 16, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    Christianity: Jesus said: “I am the way”

    Mormonism: Jesus said: “I will show you the way”

  8. 8 shematwater
    August 16, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    KENT

    You said “My question is to Mormons is, did Smith die and rise again to take away the sins of the world? The obvious answer is no, of course not. So if not, than how could he possibly have anything to do with whether or not we get to be with Heavenly Father when we die?”

    First, no one ever said that he did die, as such would be the greatest blaspheme one could teach.
    As to the second question, where does it say it can’t effect it?

    Matthew 19: 28 “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

    If all we need is Christ than what kind of judgment could the twelve be doing? It seems obvious that the twelve tribes of Israel will need the consent of Peter and the twelve to enter the Kingdom, as they will be the judges. Did any of them die for us? No. So why are they judges?
    We will all need the consent of Joseph Smith, for he is the judge of this dispensation, just as the twelve are the judges of the twelve tribes.

    You also asked: “Isn’t grace, after all we can do, establishing our own righteousness?”

    Simply put, no.

    ECHO

    You are again give a false comparison. Allow me to correct it.

    Christianity: Jesus said: “I am the way and you need do nothing to follow me.”

    Mormonism: Jesus said: “I am the way, but it is up to you to follow me.”

  9. 9 Echo
    August 16, 2011 at 9:27 pm

    Shem said: “You are again give a false comparison. Allow me to correct it.

    Christianity: Jesus said: “I am the way and you need do nothing to follow me.”

    Mormonism: Jesus said: “I am the way, but it is up to you to follow me.”

    Shem, the Christian statment you made is incorrect. We do believe in following Jesus.

    You say Jesus is the way, but you don’t understand my statement at all. You have no clue what I mean do you?

    When I say:

    “Christianity: Jesus said: “I am the way”

    Mormonism: Jesus said: “I will show you the way”

    Before you charge me with false comparisons, it would help to understand what I mean when I say something. What do I mean Shem?

  10. 10 shematwater
    August 16, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    ECHO

    You are speaking to the belief that what Christ did is sufficient and nothing we do will have any effect on our salvation. You are speaking to the doctrine that faith is all that is required, and obedience only plays a part in our lives after we have been saved.

    In regards to the LDS you are speaking about our belief that our obedience is required, just as our faith is. You are speaking to our belief in Christ as our perfect exemplar and the one we need to emulate if we are to be saved.

    I know what you are speaking about, and I stand by what I said.

    Is the way to salvation through obedience to Christ? If it is not than what I gave is perfectly accurate, for he then is the way and we need do nothing to gain salvation.

  11. 11 Kent
    August 17, 2011 at 8:59 am

    Shem said, “In regards to the LDS you are speaking about our belief that our obedience is required, just as our faith is. You are speaking to our belief in Christ as our perfect exemplar and the one we need to emulate if we are to be saved.”

    Yes, obedience is required but establishing our own righteousness, saying we can possibly add to what Jesus did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day to save sinners who can never do anything to save ourselves is being disobendient because we would not be submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God.

    It seems very clear to me and I hope the Holy Spirit reaches into your hearts and shows you this truth too. Read the passages below as it is right there in front of us for all to see!

    It is all about the Jesus and the cross and nothing else. So just have faith in what Jesus did 2000 years ago.

    Romans 10

    1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 FOR THEY BEING IGNORANT OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED THEMSELVES UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, an d by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I HAVE STRETCHED FORTH MY HANDS UNTO A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE.

  12. 12 Ralph Peterson
    August 17, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    “First it teaches about a God whom humans can understand.”

    Well, first off, JESUS also taught that understanding God was important to “eternal life”.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    “The God of Mormonism was once a man, is now an exalted man, . . .”

    This isn’t very different than your beliefs. You claim Jesus is your God. Jesus “was once a man, is now an exalted man”, so this complaint is without merit.

    “. . . limited by a body . . .”

    Sorry, but having a resurrected body of flesh and bones doesn’t limit Jesus in any way. In fact, it could be argued that it was NECESSARY to have a resurrected body of flesh and bones for Jesus to receive “all power”, for Jesus didn’t claim to have received “all power” UNTIL AFTER His resurrection.

    Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Obviously Jesus didn’t have all power earlier, otherwise this temptation of Satan would have been meaningless.

    Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

    ” . . . – not omnipresence, . . . ”

    True, we reject “omnipresence”, but then again we don’t have to explain how “hell” is the absence of the “omnipresent God.

    ” . . . omniscient, . . .”

    Blatantly FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, FOR I KNOW THEM ALL.

    “Secondly, Mormonism has a high view of humans.”

    So did Jesus.
    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    “We were God’s spirit children; sometimes referred to as gods in embryo. We have the divine potential to become gods ourselves.”

    As the Apostle Paul taught.
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    And,
    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

  13. 13 Ralph Peterson
    August 17, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    You know, you guys just don’t get it. But I will patiently try one more time.

    1) Everyone (excepting Jesus) sins and is condemned to eternal death.

    2) Those that truly repent from their sins are promised forgiveness by God.

    3) Forgiveness is ONLY available THROUGH the blood of Jesus Christ.

    4) Those that repent and receive forgiveness from God CANNOT establish their own righteousness, because without the blood of Christ there is NO forgiveness of sin.

    So sorry, but your claim that, by accepting Jesus Christ and His atonement by repenting of our sins and following HIS commandments CANNOT establish our own righteousness.

    1) Forgiveness of past sins ONLY comes through Jesus Christ.

    2) He is the one Who (not us) that provides the commandments to obey.

  14. 14 shematwater
    August 17, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    KENT

    You said “Yes, obedience is required but establishing our own righteousness, saying we can possibly add to what Jesus did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day to save sinners who can never do anything to save ourselves is being disobendient because we would not be submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God.”

    I couldn’t agree more, and the LDS doctrine does not contradict this.

    However, I have yet to see any real proof that your doctrine agrees with it, for you state that obedience is required, and yet teach that only faith is.

  15. 15 Ralph Peterson
    August 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    When we obey HIS commandments, HIS righteousness is established.

    When you claim that obeying HIS commandments doesn’t establish HIS righteousness, THEN YOU are establishing YOUR OWN righteousness.

  16. 16 Kent
    August 18, 2011 at 4:15 am

    Shem, I believe that not having complete faith in what Jesus did on the cross is being disobedient and having complete faith in what Jesus did is being obedient.

    The jews were disobedient because they established their own righteousness and didn’t submit to God’s righteousness.

    Romans 10:3 FOR THEY BEING IGNORANT OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED THEMSELVES UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

    Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I HAVE STRETCHED FORTH MY HANDS UNTO A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE.

  17. 17 Ralph Peterson
    August 18, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    God’s righteousness is brought about by obeying GOD’S commandments. They are HIS commandments so obeying them brings about HIS righteousness.

  18. 18 Kent
    August 18, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Ralph, if it is about what we do, keeping the commandments, instead of what Christ did by dying on the cross, then we are bound to keep the commandments 100 percent and we only have this lifetime to do so.

    The Galatians were making it about what they had to do, being circumcised, instead of what Jesus did by dying on the cross so they were outside of grace and bound by the law and you are bound by the law if it is about keeping the commandments as you have to be perfect at keeping them and none of us are.

    So just accept His grace and have faith and trust in Him and what He did on the cross, it will set you free from the bondage of the law.

    Galatians 5:1-6

    1 STAND FAST THEREFORE IN THE LIBERTY BY WHICH CHRIST HAS MADE US FREE, AND DO NOT BE ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH A YOKE OF BONDAGE. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 AND I TESTIFY AGAIN TO EVERY MAN WHO BECOMES CIRCUMCISED THAT HE IS A DEBTOR TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW. 4 YOU HAVE BECOME ESTRANGED FROM CHRIST, YOU WHO ATTEMPT TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW; YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

  19. 19 Kent
    August 18, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Ralph said, “God’s righteousness is brought about by obeying GOD’S commandments. They are HIS commandments so obeying them brings about HIS righteousness.”

    I think the problem with this reasoning is the focus is on us and not on Jesus when it needs to be the other way around as if this is the case, then we truly haven’t died to ourselves which makes us disobedient as none of us are righteous. But the good news, the gospel, is that we are sealed and covered by the blood of Jesus by Him dyng on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    Romans 3:10

    As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one”

  20. 20 shematwater
    August 18, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    KENT

    You said “I believe that not having complete faith in what Jesus did on the cross is being disobedient and having complete faith in what Jesus did is being obedient.”

    Again, this is perfectly in harmony with LDS doctrine.

    You said “I think the problem with this reasoning is the focus is on us and not on Jesus when it needs to be the other way around.”

    This is a problem, because the focus of what Ralph said is not on us, but on God. We establish his righteousness by being obedient to his commands. In other words, our focus is establishing his righteousness, not ours. He is the focus of our lives, and the reason we are obedient. To say this puts the focus on us is not true.

  21. 21 Kent
    August 19, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    Question to Mormons, if you believe you, by becoming more and more like Jesus as you progress, that you can become gods of your own world, does that mean that you are going to have to be crucified and rise again from the dead to be the savior of that world to take away the sins of your world because wouldn’t the people of that world be sinful?

    Also, what if you have a spirit brother who wants to be the savior of your world just like Satan wanted to be the savior of this world but was rejected what would you do then?

    Also, Ralph, Jesus isn’t an exalted man but was fully God and fully man when he walked this earth so he didn’t progress to become God when he ascended to heaven as He already was God and He has always been God and He was never a man first.

    Because he couldn’t have been the perfect sacrifice and without sin if He was merely a man when He was crucified.

    Isaiah 7:14-15

    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Immanuel (Emmanuel) means God with us and, by the way, Jesus in His incarnation wasn’t conceived by a phyiscal relationship at all otherwise He couldn’t have fullfilled the prophesy so if your church teaches that somehow God literally physically impregnated Mary, that is a heresy in itself.

  22. 22 shematwater
    August 20, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    KENT

    Your questions, in my opinion are meaningless. It shows you lack true understanding. Just as the eldest son of our Heavenly Father was the savior of us, so too will the eldest son of Jesus be the savior of our children. Remember that Elohim is the Head of the Gods. He is not by himself, but all the gods of his generation work as one to bring to pass our exaltation, and it is the eldest son of the Head that is the savior of all their children.
    Christ is given all that is his Father’s, and thus he will be the head of our generation just as his Father is the head of the previous. As such it is his son that will live the sinless life and be sacrificed for the sins of all our children.
    So, I will not die for the sins of my children, for I cannot do it.
    As to question concerning Satan, I am fully prepared for one such to arise in the next generation, just as one did in ours. He will be dealt with in the same manner.

    Just a comment on the virgin thing: Was Mary a virgin when she conceived? If so then it really doesn’t matter if it was done in some mystical way or if it was done in a very natural way. A virgin still conceived, and later bore a son. There is nothing contradicted.

  23. 23 Kent
    August 21, 2011 at 6:06 am

    Shem said,

    “Your questions, in my opinion are meaningless. It shows you lack true understanding. Just as the eldest son of our Heavenly Father was the savior of us, so too will the eldest son of Jesus be the savior of our children. Remember that Elohim is the Head of the Gods. He is not by himself, but all the gods of his generation work as one to bring to pass our exaltation, and it is the eldest son of the Head that is the savior of all their children.
    Christ is given all that is his Father’s, and thus he will be the head of our generation just as his Father is the head of the previous. As such it is his son that will live the sinless life and be sacrificed for the sins of all our children.
    So, I will not die for the sins of my children, for I cannot do it.
    As to question concerning Satan, I am fully prepared for one such to arise in the next generation, just as one did in ours. He will be dealt with in the same manner.”

    Wow, that is just too odd for me to tackle at this moment but I will ask this, why don’t the Mormon missionaries ever tell us these things?

    As far as virgin birth is concerned if Mary had lost her virginity in the process of becoming pregnant with Jesus, then the miracle of the virgin brith and the prophesy of the prophet Isaiah would not have been fullfilled because a virgin wouldn’t have conceived. It makes all the difference in the world.

    A couple of more silly questions, if Jesus is the literal offspring of God the Father, then how come He wasn’t the son of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother?

    Regarding Heavenly Mother, if she exists, then why isn’t she mentioned in any of the Mormon scriptures? correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have seen she is just sang about in a Mormon hymn and she is referred to in some sermons.

  24. 24 shematwater
    August 22, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    KENT

    It is not taught to those who are new to the gospel for the same reason that Paul taught only the simple gospel to those who were young in the spirit. It is milk before meat, or as Isaiah puts it “line upon line and precept upon precept.” We do not learn everything at once, but are guided in our learning, being taught no more than we are able to comprehend.

    The virgin birth still poses no problem, as it was still a virgin who conceived. It does not say she remained a virgin, but that we was a virgin at the time of conception, which is perfectly accurate.

    As to your other questions, you are right that they are silly, but what the hey; I am in a silly mood. but remember that this is my own comment, and not that of the church.

    Q. If Jesus is the literal offspring of God the Father, then how come He wasn’t the son of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother?
    A. Because blood is required for a mortal offspring. The immortal beings do not have blood in their veins; the fluid that is in their veins causes them to produce spirit children. For Christ to be born into a mortal body with the capacity to die it required that at least one parent have blood, which is the life of the mortal body, to pass to the child.

    Q. Regarding Heavenly Mother, if she exists, then why isn’t she mentioned in any of the Mormon scriptures?
    A. Because the Father is the head of the Family and thus the one we revere as God. It is him that we have dealings with and no other. As such there is no need for our Heavenly Mother to be mentioned directly. However, the fact that it is taught that a husband and wife will have spirit children when they are gods the concept of a Heavenly Mother is most certainly taught in the scriptures.

  25. 25 Kent
    August 23, 2011 at 9:41 am

    One more thing that I guess is too advanced for us unprogressed people to understand, so the missionaries won’t tell us about it, is doesn’t God live on a planet planet that ciricles the star Kolob?

    If so, it sounds like the founder of your church is actually L Ron Hubbard instead of Joseph Smith.

    That stuff is just too odd for me so I will just stick with the Bible it has all the information about God I will ever need anyway.

  26. 26 shematwater
    August 23, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    KENT

    There is a lot of confusion concerning Kolob. Quite honestly, I don’t know of any place that Kolob is ever called a star, so to say it is one, though common among members, is not actually accurate to what we know. What it is called is the First Creation, which is nearest to the place where God resides. But it is never described beyond this.
    I think that an understanding of Kolob will be withheld from the world for a great many years yet, and I will not pretend to understand what it is.

    Now, the Bible is very nice and one can learn a great deal about God from it. But they can’t learn everything, especially without other records to clarify and support what it says. That is why I thank God for all his word, for I have a much deeper understanding of who he is, what he does, and why he does it; and because of this understanding I am more able to put my trust in him to guide me.

  27. 27 Kent
    August 23, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    Shem, so instead of the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly, maybe your church should say, the Bible is the word of God but it is incomplete and we need other resources besides the Bible?

    I have never understood why the Mormon Church would even use the Bible if they believe its translations are not accurate.

    It is the word of God but use it with caution?

    I, on the other hand, believe the Bible to be accurate and complete and if we use it exclusively without the other resources, its teachings are different than if we add the other resources and that we have the choice to believe one belief system or the other.

  28. 28 rechtglaubig
    August 23, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    On a side note, do the LDS churches in other countries put that disclaimer on translated Book of Mormons?

  29. 29 shematwater
    August 23, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    KENT

    The Bible can be shown to be inaccurate, and the fact that various translations do not agree with each other is proof enough that there are difficulties with the translation.
    However, the vast majority of what we have is translated correctly, and so we use it. I have in my possession the entire JST of the Bible, and when it is compared to the KJV it is apparent that less than 10% of what we have was not correctly translated. For instance, the Book of Ruth is correct as it stands in the KJV, as are the second and third epistles of John. Other books are also correct, and others have only minor changes (such as changing saith to said).
    This is not to say there aren’t significant errors in the KJV, but that they are not common. The great truths that were lost were lost more from the loosing or the intentional exclusion of entire books and epistles (like the truth first epistle to the Corinthians – 1 Corinthians 5).

    We use the Bible because it mostly correct, and we also have the JST to help us see where the errors are.

    “if we use [the bible] exclusively without the other resources, its teachings are different than if we add the other resources”
    Actually, I would disagree. Using just the Bible you still get the same doctrines, you just don’t get all of them. To get the other teachings that you speak of you have to use other resources, like the various creeds and other writings of a non-biblical nature. The fact is that every Christian denomination has other sources besides the Bible (whether they actively use them or not), they just aren’t the word of God like the Bible is.

  30. August 24, 2011 at 3:36 am

    **** Remember that Elohim is the Head of the Gods. He is not by himself, *******
    That is simple idolatry …!!

    God revealed this long ago..

    —– > ” there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. — Isaiah 45:6
    .

    “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.” ——-Deuteronomy 4:35
    .

    “that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.” 1 Kings 8:60
    .
    .
    . Here is God’s response to that Satanic revelation and belief

    Ezekiel 23:49
    You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.”

  31. 31 Kent
    August 24, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    Shem said, “We use the Bible because it mostly correct, and we also have the JST to help us see where the errors are.”

    The Bible says nothing about a prophet like Joseph Smith coming so he just adds himself onto the end of Genesis in the JST bible sounds very self serving on the part of Smith to me.

    What words was Smith translating when he blatantly added to the word of God?

  32. 32 shematwater
    August 24, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    KENT

    It is all a matter of perspective. Joseph Smith did not add to the word of God, he simply restored that portion of the word that was lost. He got these words from God himself, just as Moses did when he first wrote the book of Genesis, and as all prophets have done from the days of Adam.

    JBR

    It is not idolatry, for the simple fact that we do not worship any of these gods. You really need to under the meaning of words before you try to use them to accuse others.
    Elohim is God, and there is no other beside him whom we worship. However, there are many who are gods (notice the little g) who exist in the state of godhood and serve Elohim as a grand counsel of gods under the Head of the Gods. For God is a God of gods.
    Joshua 22:22
    “The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)”
    Psalms 136:2
    “O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.”
    Deuteronomy 10:17
    “For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:”
    Daniel 11:36
    “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.”
    Daniel 2:47
    “The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.”

    And no, he is not the God of false gods, like you claim by siting Baal and Moloch and Ashtoreth. He is not a God of lies and deceit, nor would he claim such false deities as being in any way associated with him. He is a God of gods, of true gods, of beings who exist in the same state and essence as he does, but who are subject to him and serve him as their Head.

  33. 33 Echo
    August 24, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    Shem, getting back to the topic of the thread…

    How wide is the divide between God and Man?

  34. 34 shematwater
    August 24, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    ECHO

    It is as wide as we choose to make it.

  35. 35 Echo
    August 24, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    Shem said: “It is as wide as we choose to make it.”

    Fair enough. So when a divide remains between us and God, then that divide exists because of the choices we have made?

  36. 36 shematwater
    August 24, 2011 at 5:13 pm

    Exactly. By making the right choices we can close the divide completely, so nothing separates us from God; or we can expand it, so that no hint of the divine is in us.

  37. 37 Echo
    August 24, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    So we really have no excuse for not being perfect?

  38. 38 shematwater
    August 24, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    That would depend on your definition of perfect and how long it takes to achieve it.

  39. 39 Echo
    August 24, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    I am using the term “perfect” here to refer to sinlessness.

  40. 40 shematwater
    August 25, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    Then yes, we have an excuse. First of all, we are mortal and no mortal can live a truly sinless life. Second of all, we have time. While we can progress to have a sinless future (or to never sin again) this takes time, and so until we have been given sufficient time we have an excuse for not accomplishing it.

    However, once we have been given the sufficient time, and since Christ has made it possible for us to become truly sinless, than at the end of everything, when we are all judged of our works and receive our reward, then no one will have an excuse for not attaining to that perfection and fully closing the gap between us and God.

  41. 41 Echo
    August 25, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    Does the gap have to be closed before the judgment?

  42. 42 shematwater
    August 25, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    ECHO

    No.

  43. 43 Echo
    August 25, 2011 at 11:58 pm

    But you said this: “However, once we have been given the sufficient time, and since Christ has made it possible for us to become truly sinless, than at the end of everything, when we are all judged of our works and receive our reward, then no one will have an excuse for not attaining to that perfection and fully closing the gap between us and God.”

  44. 44 Kent
    August 28, 2011 at 10:05 am

    it seems to me that by bridging the gap between God and man, that Mormons are attempting to rewrite God by creating Him in man’s image instead of the other way around.

    But us being created in God’s image is not us being gods but, as the moon and planets don’t shine of their own light but reflect the sun’s light, it is us reflecting God’s goodness but it is still His light that is shining from us and not our own light.

    Mormons, believe in the true God of the Bible and reflect His light and don’t try to create your own light by trying to be gods yourselves because by trying to create your own light, you are in danger of reflecting no light and end up in Outer Darkness.

  45. August 28, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    ” it seems to me that by bridging the gap between God and man, that Mormons are attempting to rewrite God by creating Him in man’s image instead of the other way around.”

    That is a form of idolitry

  46. 46 Kent
    August 28, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    Jesus Christ already bridged the gap between God and man by dying on the cross for us, sinners who cannot save ourselves, and rising again on the third day. So believe and trust in what He did 2000 years ago and you too can be assured you will be with Heavenly Father forever.

  47. 47 shematwater
    August 29, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    KENT

    It all depends on how you define the term image, doesn’t it?

    ECHO

    I know what I said. The gap does not have to be closed before the judgment, but at the judgment. When we stand at the Bar, with the Father judging our works, Christ will stand as our advocate, and if we are found worthy the gap will be fully closed (if it was not so closed before that time). To have the gap fully closed before the judgment is a rare occurrence. I would guess that only a very few in the Bible have reached that point in their mortal lives. The rest of us must do all we can so that when the judgment comes we can stand assured that whatever we were unable to finish in this life will be finished by Christ at the judgment.

    To give a more LDS terminology to it: To close the Gap is to have ones Calling and Election made sure, as Peter tells us (2 Peter 1: 10). Not all people will receive this blessing in this life, but many who do not will still be with God, and thus have closed the gap, at the final judgment.

    Though, after considering things, I suppose it could be said that it has to be closed before the judgment, but that we may not know that it is closed until that time, and so we must continually work as though it wasn’t.

  48. 48 Echo
    August 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    Shem,

    If some people can reach perfection in their mortal lives, why not all people?

  49. 49 shematwater
    August 29, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    All people can, but not all people do, and doing so is not required. What is required is that we strive for such and bring ourselves as close to it as possible.

    Those who reach such perfection in their mortal lives generally were the most advanced and understanding of the spirits in the Pre-existence (the noble and great ones mentioned by Abraham). Just as the intelligence we attain to in this life will rise with us in the next, so too are we born with the same intelligence and understanding we had in the previous.

  50. 50 Echo
    August 29, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    When is someone considered to not have done all they can do?

  51. 51 Kent
    August 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Shem said, “All people can, but not all people do, and doing so is not required. What is required is that we strive for such and bring ourselves as close to it as possible”

    The Bible teaches that if it is about what we do, keeping the commandments, than perfection is required in this lifetime but there is a solution to this dilemma, Jesus already did it for us on the cross and we can put on His perfection, in God’s eyes, by believing and trusting in solely what He did in our place by dying on the cross and rising again from the dead, for sinners who cannot save ourselves.

    Grace is all about what He did and nothing about what we do so we either succeed by accepting what He did or we fail by relying on what we do.

  52. 52 Kent
    August 30, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Shem said,

    “Those who reach such perfection in their mortal lives generally were the most advanced and understanding of the spirits in the Pre-existence (the noble and great ones mentioned by Abraham). Just as the intelligence we attain to in this life will rise with us in the next, so too are we born with the same intelligence and understanding we had in the previous.”

    This perfection has never happened in the history of mankind. For example, is there anyone, men especially, who can say they have never lusted in their entire lives and that they, at times, ever stop lusting?

    Well, if we are being honest with ourselves the answer is no!

    Remember, if we look at a woman in lust we have already committed adultery in our hearts.

    The good news, the gospel, is that we are forgiven of this sin by what Jesus did on the cross. Below, again is the gospel we have been given. Notice it says nothing about what we do.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

  53. 53 Kent
    August 30, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    I said, “This perfection has never happened in the history of mankind. For example, is there anyone, men especially, who can say they have never lusted in their entire lives and that they, at times, ever stop lusting?”

    This could be worded better by saying that none of us ever stop lusting completely while we are here on earth.

    Someone can tell me they have but if he is honest with himself he knows this isn’t true.

    One thing that jumped out at me was how an ex Mormon said he would tell his friends he was struggling with a particular sin, I am going to assume it was lust, and they would act surprised and tell him, “really, you are struggling with that?” As if to say they aren’t going through the same thing themselves.

    It seems there is a lot of denial going on in the Mormon world to present a good face to their peers.

  54. 54 Kent
    August 30, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    Add on to my last posts: again, saved means we get to be with Heavenly Father for eternity not just that we will live in the afterlife with a chance, after all we can do, of someday being with Him.

  55. 55 shematwater
    August 30, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    ECHO

    If I understand the question than it is one that only God can answer, and an answer he will only give to the individual; that is until the final Judgment when all things will be revealed.
    I cannot say if someone has not done all they could, as that is not my call.

    The only real answer one can give is what the scriptures say. If a person has learned of the gospel and rejected it in this life, and die in such a state, then they have not done that which is required. However, as long as they are still alive we cannot say anything concerning them, for their time is not yet done.

  56. 56 shematwater
    August 30, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    KENT

    Genesis 6: 9 “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”

    Job 1: 1 “There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.”

    So, we have a written record in the Bible itself that at least two men were declared to be perfect by God. So, perfection in this life is attainable.

    However, I will amend what I said. True perfection, or the state of being sinless as Echo has said that is the topic, cannot come until the final judgment, at which point all previous sins will be washed away. However, perfection in the sense that one will not sin again can be achieved in this life, which does close the gap between man and God, and can result in personal visitation from Christ and the father, as is promised in John14: 23
    “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
    However, this perfection of mortality is not required of all people, and most people who have achieved it are as I previously described.

  57. August 31, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    Shem,
    Noah was perfect based on what …… certainly not based on his works. He (1) got drank alcohol, (2) was found naked and (3) cursed his son’s family. Genesis 9:20-25

    (1) “Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine …. Gen 9:20-21

    (2) “he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent” ……… Gen 9:20-21

    (3) When Noah awoke from his wine …. (sobered up)

    and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 said,

    “Cursed be Canaan!
    The lowest of slaves
    will he be to his brothers.”

  58. August 31, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Should amend (1) to say:
    He (1) drank alcohol and got drunk

  59. 59 shematwater
    August 31, 2011 at 5:33 pm

    JBR

    I know the story well, and it doesn’t really change anything as we have no details. It takes about five verses, and that is it.

    1. He planted a vineyard, yes.
    2. He drank of the wine, yes, though it was not the same drink as the wine we have today. It was fermented to a point, but that was necessary at the time for preservation.
    3. He did get drunk, but was this intentional, or was it due to being inexperienced at making the wine, or careless in how fermented it got. We are not given specifics.
    4. When it says he was uncovered it does not necessarily imply complete nakedness, but that the undergarments where exposed, which is not a dreadful thing in one’s private dwelling place, which is where he was.
    5. He cursed Ham’s son, yes. But according to the account Ham had done something to him. It wasn’t just that he saw him naked by accident, but that he had made a conscious choice to perform some action against him.
    As to the cursing, you can say this was Noah, but there is nothing in the account to prove that the curse was not both inspired and condone by God.

    Noah was a perfect man, or as perfect as a mortal can get. Trying to prove otherwise by using a sketchy account of one particular event just doesn’t work. You can claim his perfection was not due to his works, but you have nothing that truly supports this claim in any real way.

  60. September 1, 2011 at 3:59 am

    2. He drank of the wine, yes, though it was not the same drink as the wine we have today. It was fermented to a point, but that was necessary at the time for preservation.

    ….. and this from what source —-

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    3. He did get drunk, but was this intentional, or was it due to being inexperienced at making the wine, or careless in how fermented it got. We are not given specifics.

    ………. what does it matter. God’s demand for perfection doesn’t allow for a balance scale the Mormonism advocates.

    By God’s standard that he uses for those who do all you can do … Noah is a failure.
    That is the standard God will use.

    You can do 99.9% correct ——- but do just one thing wrong and your 100% guilty.

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    4. When it says he was uncovered it does not necessarily imply complete nakedness, but that the undergarments where exposed, which is not a dreadful thing in one’s private dwelling place, which is where he was.

    …….. Oh really, just how do you know this…..

  61. September 1, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Shem said, “He drank of the wine, yes, though it was not the same drink as the wine we have today. It was fermented to a point, but that was necessary at the time for preservation.

    He did get drunk, but was this intentional, or was it due to being inexperienced at making the wine, or careless in how fermented it got. We are not given specifics.”

    Why are you making excuses for Noah’s sin? He either sinned or he didn’t sin.

    But if Noah hadn’t sinned up to that point in his life, perhaps God is showing us that if even Noah couldn’t live up to living a sinless life, then none of the rest of us can either.

    There are also indications that Job sinned also or why else would God put him in his place by asking Job where was he when god made everything?

    Again, if Job had not sinned before in his life, but he ended up commiting sin, God is showing us that none of us can live a sinless life either.

    Shem, it is either all about us living up to 100 percent perfection in keeping the law or it is about grace, a free gift given to us if we believe in and trust what Jesus Christ did by dying on the cross and rising again from the dead on the third day 2000 years ago.

    The Bible teaches that grace cannot be grace if it is only after all we can do because if it is about anything we do and not about what Jesus did, then it isn’t grace.

    So no, there has never been a human being who has lived a perfect sinless life but the good news, the true gospel, is that Jesus Christ paid for every sin anyone has ever committed or ever will commit and our debts are paid just accept his free gift!

    Mormons, quit striving because you are not going to make it! But, again, you don’t have to as Jesus already made it for you!

  62. September 1, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    As I said, but no one commeted on it, after hearing the testimony of an ex Mormon who said that when he told his Mormon friends he was struggling with a certain sin, I will assume that it is lust as all men, experience this at times even if they never act on it, his friends would tell him, “really, you struggle with that?” As if to say that they too don’t go through the same struggles he was going through.

    Ironic, even the bishops that tell their charges to be worthy aren’t completely worthy themselves if they are honest with themselves.

    There is an interesting testimony by a former Mormon woman who was told by her bishop that she would see her baby that died if she went to the temple if she was worthy and how devastated she was when she didn’t see her child. But as sad as she was she became joyful when she realized that she didn’t have to be worthy as Jesus Christ was already worthy for her.

    http://latterdaysaintwoman.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/can-feeling-unworthy-be-a-blessing/

    There is kind of a running joke especially of fans who follow certain musical stars that when they meet their heroes then bow down to them and say, “we’re not worthy!”

    In reality, none of us are worthy, very likely especially the rock star, but Jesus Christ is worthy!

    Romans 3:10

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

  63. 63 Echo
    September 1, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Shem said: “If I understand the question than it is one that only God can answer, and an answer he will only give to the individual; that is until the final Judgment when all things will be revealed.
    I cannot say if someone has not done all they could, as that is not my call.”

    if you believe we “can” be perfect in this life. Then there is no excuse for not being perfect in this life.
    You believe we can become perfect in this life. Therefore, in my opinion, if you fail to do that, you have not done “all you can do” and grace will not benefit you.

  64. 64 shematwater
    September 1, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    What things really boil down to is this: Echo was asking questions regarding what I believe (or what the LDS teach). I answered those questions, simply and effectively. Echo has effectively tried to counter these explanations through logically analyzing them. Everyone else has been very ineffective in their attempts to counter them by introducing none LDS doctrine as proof against them. This will fail every time, and thus should be avoided.

    Simply put, None LDS will contradict LDS 95% of the time. But then, Islam will also contradict it 95% of the time, as will Hinduism or any other religion. If you are going to try and prove the LDS are wrong you have to use our doctrine to show this, not your own.

    Example: “By God’s standard that he uses for those who do all you can do … Noah is a failure. That is the standard God will use. You can do 99.9% correct ——- but do just one thing wrong and your 100% guilty.”

    Answer to this: This is not LDS doctrine, and so I reject it as being false. As such, according to LDS doctrine, Noah is not a failure, but is perfect as the Bible testifies.

    Bring any other doctrine in and I will give the same reply: It is a false doctrine and thus has no real effect on what I believe.

    Now, Kent mentions a story of an ex-Mormon struggling, and “assumes” the sin is lust. The reasoning is that this is a common sin. While it is common, I would highly doubt it was the subject of discussion, and all Kent is really doing is playing the odds to make his point sound better.
    I don’t suppose you can see how such makes your arguments appear silly and irrational, but it maybe you can see that it is completely ineffective.

    Consider this verse: John 14: 21 “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

    Now consider that we read that Noah “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
    Since Noah walked with God, and Christ tells us that only those who keep the commandments are so blessed, we can see that Noah was perfect because he kept those commandments.
    The same can be said of Job, for God appeared unto him.

    Of course you can always reply with a list of verses of your own to attempt to prove your doctrine, but it will not work.

  65. 65 shematwater
    September 1, 2011 at 7:43 pm

    You can have your opinion, but it will not effect the truth or the doctrine of the LDS church.

    Perfection, though obviously attainable, is not required.

    It is much like school: Not all students are equal in their capacity to learn. Some come to school already years ahead of the rest. Others start years behind. What is required while in school is not strait A’s, though some people will attain that. What is required is the honest effort to get strait A’s, doing everything in our power to do so.

    The real trouble in understanding this is that it seems you are stuck in the thought of extremes. If it is not perfect it completely rejected. This lacks any real mercy. On the other hand, if absolute mercy is given to all, then even those who should be rejected can be accepted. This lacks any real justice.

    While all the rest of Christianity are concerned only with these extremes, the LDS are concerned with what is between them. What of those who are not completely perfect, but are striving to be so? What of those who commit every abominable act, but still cry to Jesus mercy? Our doctrine can accommodate such a middle ground, while I have seen no other that can.

  66. September 1, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    “If you are going to try and prove the LDS are wrong you have to use our doctrine to show this, not your own.”
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    What a rabbit hole chase of convenience ……………
    When that is done, then we get to hear how unqualified the person is.

    But at least you admit that Mormonism isn’t Christian.


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