15
Sep
11

ARE ANY SINS MISDEMEANORS?

 

It sure seems like some sins aren’t very serious; at the most being on the level of minor crimes, misdemeanors.  But that isn’t how the Bible portrays them.  Sin, all sin, is extremely serious because of the person whom we are sinning against.

For example, if I took a swing at my friend, there would be consequences but we wouldn’t even make the news.  Taking that same swing at a police officer, however, might get me into the papers – and into jail.  Same swing – different consequences -because of whom I swung at.  Take it a step further.  Say I took that same swing at the President of theUnited States.  That would get me national attention – and serious jail time.  Same swing – different consequences – because of whom I swung at.

Sin is serious because we are sinning against God.  For example, after committing adultery, David cried out to the Lord:  “Against thee, thee only, have I sinned.”  (Psalm 51:4)  All sin is against God because all sin breaks God’s law.  That means all sin is serious. That’s why James wrote, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”  (James 2:10)  Sin, all sin, is serious.  There are no misdemeanors when it comes to sin.  In fact, sin is more than a felony – sin, all sin, is a capital crime.  “The wages of sin is death.”  (Romans 6:23)  It’s not just the blatant sinners who have a big problem.

The only solution to that problem is Jesus.  How wonderful it is that this verse continues:  “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  Eternal life is more than immortality.  Eternal life is living eternally with Heavenly Father.  (The LDS Bible’s Topical Guide recognizes this by referencing exaltation and eternal family under the heading, eternal life.)  Jesus died for our capital crimes.  He paid the penalty for all our sins.  His blood washes away all sin.  So much so that God gives eternal life as his gift to us – with no strings attached.  To Jesus be all praise!

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209 Responses to “ARE ANY SINS MISDEMEANORS?”


  1. 1 shematwater
    September 15, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?

    I like the analogy of the consequences changing depending of the target. However, the consequences also change depending on action.

    If I take a swing at a friend he may forgive me. Such an act is easily forgotten. But if I kill him, that brings a whole new set of consequences, and most likely makes the local news.
    If I take a swing at a policeman there is one set of consequences, as mentioned. But if I kill a policeman I look at a much more serious set of consequences, even more so than killing a friend, and I likely make state, and maybe even national news.
    If I take a swing at the president there are the stated consequences. But if I kill the President I make international news facing the most serious consequences the law can give.

    Why must we assume that God is any different? Or, why is it that taking a swing at God carries the same consequence as killing him (using the analogy)?

    Yes, the wage of sin is death, judge as the wage of crime is a criminal record. It doesn’t matter what crime you commit, it will always be on your record. Just as it doesn’t matter what sin you commit, you will always be spiritually dead. This does not necessitate that all sin be equal in severity or consequence, just as a record does not mean equal punishment under the law.

  2. 2 rechtglaubig
    September 16, 2011 at 1:09 am

    Hello again Shematwater,

    “If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?”

    There are no strings. Faith is a gift from God.

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

    “Why must we assume that God is any different? Or, why is it that taking a swing at God carries the same consequence as killing him (using the analogy)?”

    “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:21-22)

  3. 3 Echo
    September 16, 2011 at 2:15 am

    Shem said: “If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?”

    “Believe” means to trust in what Jesus ALONE has done. This gift of eternal life is given with no strings attached because Jesus alone did it ALL. Eternal Life is a “gift” not a “wage”

    Shem said: ” I like the analogy of the consequences changing depending of the target. However, the consequences also change depending on action.

    If I take a swing at a friend he may forgive me. Such an act is easily forgotten. But if I kill him, that brings a whole new set of consequences, and most likely makes the local news.
    If I take a swing at a policeman there is one set of consequences, as mentioned. But if I kill a policeman I look at a much more serious set of consequences, even more so than killing a friend, and I likely make state, and maybe even national news.
    If I take a swing at the president there are the stated consequences. But if I kill the President I make international news facing the most serious consequences the law can give.”

    Mark is talking about “eternal consequences” not “physical consequences”. Sin reaps for us both kinds of consequences. The eternal consequence is the same for ALL sin. ALL sin reaps Spiritual death in outer darkness for all eternity. There are no degrees of sin. As Mark said, all sins are capital crimes and the consequence of capital crimes is death. Death = eternity in Outer Darkness.

  4. 4 jbr
    September 16, 2011 at 4:10 am

    Q: If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?

    Because you have the impression God uses a balance scale that weighs “all you can do” good efforts against
    “all you FAILED to do” which allows you entrance into his presence. Truth is you’re nothing but dead weight Shem all on one side of that scale.

    Every hour of every day you’re just adding to that dead weight …. the scale is against you Shem.
    Every time you break just one … God views you as breaking them all. …. the scale is against you Shem.

    There is no minor grievances when you’re guilty of breaking everything……. the scale is against you Shem.
    You know that little bad thought you had today … you’re guilty of the most vile … the scale Shem is against you.

    Today Shem, according to God you broke every law:

    … you murdered,
    you raped,
    you stole,
    you fornicated,
    had sex with animals,
    physically abused your body,
    worshiped idols,
    you got drunk,
    hated your neighbor,

    you are —-> g u i l t y <——- of the most vile humanity considers "bad".

  5. 5 shematwater
    September 16, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    rechtglaubig

    Honestly, this is just going to go back to the same old argument: If Faith is a gift, than why do some people have it and others don’t?

    As to the Matthew quote, I fail to see how this makes him any different.

    ECHO

    My point with the analogy is that Mark failed to prove his point. I don’t care if you are talking about eternal or physical consequences, the same principal still applies to both or we have a very confusing situation.

    As to believe, I would like to know why the word has such a narrow meaning when it comes to theology, but such a wide one in all other situations.
    In other words, why does having faith in anything other than God require effort from us, but faith in God doesn’t?

    JBR

    You fail to address the question, and instead go into a tirade of how sinful I am. Is this really conducive to friendly discussion? Answer the question: If there are not strings attached than why do we need faith?

  6. 6 Echo
    September 16, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Shem said: “In other words, why does having faith in anything other than God require effort from us, but faith in God doesn’t?

    When we say: “no effort required” or “no strings attached,” we are talking about us NOT having to do something (like obey the commandments) in order to gain eternal life. Eternal life is a “gift”.

    On the other hand, if there are strings or effort required such as: Obedience to the commandments etc. then eternal life is no longer a “gift” but now becomes a “wage”

    The Bible says: “The “gift” of God is eternal life” Romans 6:23

    It does not say: “The “wage” of God is eternal life”

    Read the bible passages that discuss “gift” and “wage” together…

    Romans 4:4-8 ” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

    See where the passage says: ” to the man who does NOT work ” ? This is talking about good works, about obedience to the commandments. In other words….no strings attached. We don’t work for the gift. The one who “trusts God who justified the wicked” …That’s faith! Faith in the gift given to the wicked rather than faith in one’s obedience to the commandments or one’s own effort in order to recieve eternal life. That is wages. It is not a gift.

    The Bible says: “The “gift” of God is eternal life” Romans 6:23

  7. 7 jbr
    September 17, 2011 at 2:32 am

    The reason for the “tirade” is to address why the need for faith.

    “Without faith it is impossible to please God.”
    Without faith…you can’t “do all you can do” or obey any law to please God.

    God doesn’t do the rest.
    Either Jesus is 100% substitute who offers the free gift of life

    or

    You’re on your own.

  8. September 18, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    and still NO ONE has answered Shem’s question!!!!

    IF no strings are attached then EVERY human to ever live on the earth is saved. why bother with the details?

  9. September 18, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    ick, ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww and yuck! why do you people always go for the gross factor?

    UNREPENTANT sinners are guilty of breaking the whole law…..not repentant sinners.

    I find you all to be so judgmental! Is it up to you? uh, no.

  10. 10 Echo
    September 18, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    “IF no strings are attached then EVERY human to ever live on the earth is saved. why bother with the details?”

    Every human being has been forgiven for all of their sins “no strings attached”. That gift is like a ticket to eternal life. Eternal life requires perfection and nothing short of it. The “no strings attached” ticket Jesus gives as a gift, meets those requirements.

    While there is a ticket with everyone’s name on it, each individual person must receive their ticket in order to benefit from the ticket. Nobody reaches eternal life without a ticket.

  11. September 19, 2011 at 2:20 am

    oh, then there is a little string attached, “receiving their ticket”. that is a string. it requires faith and repentance.
    so….make that two little strings.
    so, every living person, even those who never in this life got a chance to hear about their Savior, have a ticket….but they just need to “receive” it. what if there were no ticket stations in Zimbabwe in 1886?

  12. 12 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 2:45 am

    There are two people. One is named Paul, the other Joseph. Both have sinned against God. God has already forgiven them both even though they don’t yet know it. (God has reconciled both Paul and Joseph to himself not counting their sins against them.)

    Since God has already forgiven both Paul and Joseph even before they hear this good news, how can there be any strings attached to Paul and Joseph being forgiven?

  13. September 19, 2011 at 2:59 am

    so, Paul and Joseph gain eternal life just by being born? cool! like I said, why bother with any details? why bother keeping any commandments? helping the poor, the fatherless or the weary? why pay tithing? why repent? You are in like Flynn!

  14. 14 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 3:10 am

    “cool! like I said, why bother with any details? why bother keeping any commandments? helping the poor, the fatherless or the weary? why pay tithing? why repent? You are in like Flynn!”

    Is that how you would respond to the knowledge that all your sins have already been forgiven?

  15. 15 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 4:01 am

    What about a man and woman who just got married ? Would they respond to their respective spouses with…”cool! why bother remaining pure to my wife/husband, I will just sleep with whomever I choose now that I am in like Flynn!”

    Do you think that would be their response?

  16. September 19, 2011 at 4:29 am

    Anne,
    It’s not a matter of not answering…it was answered.
    The reason for faith is because it was already revealed…….“Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Romans 11:6

    that doesn’t read …without obeying the law, doing all you can do is it impossible to please God… now does it.
    that doesn’t read …without the ladder is it impossible to please God
    that doiesn’t read …proving yourself worthy is it impossible to please God

    Faith alone …. faith alone is the only “work” which God requires.

  17. September 19, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    JBR…according to you we need Faith? Ok, then, THAT is a HUGE string!!!!

    Echo, according to you we need gratitude??? ok, then, THAT is ALSO a HUGE string!!!

    make up your minds. Is there a string attached or isn’t there?

  18. 18 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Anne said: “JBR…according to you we need Faith? Ok, then, THAT is a HUGE string!!!!

    Echo, according to you we need gratitude??? ok, then, THAT is ALSO a HUGE string!!!

    make up your minds. Is there a string attached or isn’t there?”

    As I stated before, we were forgiven “before” we even heard that good news. That means that forgiveness comes with no strings attached.

  19. September 19, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    you said we could not receive eternal life without a ticket. we must “receive” a ticket. are there strings attached to the ticket?

    because as you have explained it, it does not matter if we have been forgiven if we do not get the ticket.

    that makes that ticket pretty important.

    does one have to “repent” in order to receive the forgiveness? and the ticket?

  20. 20 jbr
    September 19, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    Faith is not a “string” in context as you’re attempting to make it into.

    This topic is about the seriousness of sin and how Mormonism downplays it consequences in some ways, puts conditions to the assuredness of forgiveness which usurps Jesus in his totality of payment as our substitute.

    To God, …sin is sin. God is just. Just one sin has the same effect as if one committed them all. Every possible sin that one can commit will be levied against the sinner……. as guilty like as if as though you have committed every single one. It doesn’t matter how clean cut you appear, how much effort you put into proving yourself worthy, what you did or not do.

    Jesus has to be your substitute… not your example to follow.

    That is just how it is …. it’s not the skeptic’s logic of a “HUGE string”

  21. September 19, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    Ok, now….you want to change the subject! Let’s get back to the topic here:

    IF faith is required in order to “get a ticket” than THAT IS A STRING!

    plain and simple.

    IF I can NOT get forgiveness UNLESS I have faith, then that is a condition.

    true or false?

  22. 22 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 6:58 pm

    Anne, how can faith be a condition to being forgiven if you are already forgiven?

  23. September 19, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Echo,

    That is exactly what I am asking. you said:

    “While there is a ticket with everyone’s name on it, each individual person must receive their ticket in order to benefit from the ticket. Nobody reaches eternal life without a ticket.”

    How do i “receive” my ticket? must I exercise faith? do I need to repent? (the Bible tells me I do) IF SO, then those are strings.

  24. September 19, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    JBR,

    are you REALLY saying that Jesus Christ is NOT my example to follow?

    serious?

  25. September 19, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    just a little quote from my reading today :

    Luke 10

    25 ¶And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy aheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt alive.

    seems to me that there are some Strings in that scripture! they aren’t handing out eternal life like a free lunch!

  26. 26 shematwater
    September 19, 2011 at 7:47 pm

    Let us sum things up.

    According to MARK “[Christ’s] blood washes away all sin. So much so that God gives eternal life as his gift to us – with no strings attached.”
    Mark is not saying that Forgiveness comes with no strings, but that Eternal Life comes with no strings because Forgiveness has already been given.

    Echo has asserted that “we were forgiven “before” we even heard that good news.” This is in line with what Mark says, but than Echo makes out that it is forgiveness that has no strings, and thus diverges from Mark’s original point, which was concerning Eternal Life, excluding faith as a requirement for it (no strings).

    Added to this JBR is saying that faith is required, using the ever popular verse concerning faith being required to please God, and has thus contradicted Mark, as faith being required means that there is at least one string attached to eternal life.

    We now have three different perspective, any two of which can be reconciled with each other, but not all three.

    So I will ask again: If there are no strings attached to receiving Eternal Life, than why would faith be required?

    I will ask Echo if he agrees with Mark in that Eternal Life has no strings, or if it is just forgiveness that has no strings?

    I will also agree with JBR that Faith is required, but will ask an explanation of it not being a string if it is so required?

    I will also clarify one thing, as some misleading information has been presented in this thread. While it is true that the LDS do not believe in a whole sale forgiveness for all sins regardless of anything, we do believe that all sins will be forgiven eventually (except the unpardonable one that Christ tells us about) and thus all men (with few exceptions) will be in heaven eventually.

  27. 27 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    Anne said: “While there is a ticket with everyone’s name on it, each individual person must receive their ticket in order to benefit from the ticket. Nobody reaches eternal life without a ticket.”

    How do i “receive” my ticket? must I exercise faith? do I need to repent? (the Bible tells me I do) IF SO, then
    those are strings.”

    Anne, if you could answer my question: “how can faith be a condition to being forgiven if you are already forgiven?”

    Then we can discuss the other things you have brought up in turn as well. One step at a time is probably the best way to explain this to you.

  28. 28 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    Shem,

    There is one requirement for eternal life. That requirement is sinless perfection. No unclean thing can enter God’s presence. It is impossible for Sinners to meet that requirement. Doing all we can do is not enough. We must be perfectly sinless before we die. One unforgiven sin is enough to damn us for all eternity into outer darkness. We all sin daily.

    Where all sins are forgiven, there you have sinless perfection. Since forgiveness is a “no strings attached” gift that means eternal life is a “no strings attached” gift. One naturally leads to the other. Where you have forgiveness of sins, there you have sinless perfection and eternal life.

  29. 29 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 8:22 pm

    Shem said: “So I will ask again: If there are no strings attached to receiving Eternal Life, than why would faith be required?”

    Faith isn’t required in order to be forgiven. Faith simply takes ahold of the forgiveness already given.

    It is in this order…

    Forgiveness, then faith

    You are thinking like this…

    Faith, then forgiveness

  30. 30 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 8:27 pm

    Shem said: “I will also clarify one thing, as some misleading information has been presented in this thread. While it is true that the LDS do not believe in a whole sale forgiveness for all sins regardless of anything, we do believe that all sins will be forgiven eventually (except the unpardonable one that Christ tells us about) and thus all men (with few exceptions) will be in heaven eventually”

    And what will you do if you find out when you die that this isn’t the truth?

  31. September 19, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    Echo,
    You better ask JBR that question….he is the one that said you had to have faith.

    I am simply asking the questions…..i haven’t offered any answers!

    but even your reply to shem indicates that there is a condition that needs to be met. You say Forgiveness then faith. BUT if someone does not activate that forgiveness with faith….does he have forgiveness?
    (Forgiveness that is useful in his life, not forgiveness that is floating around somewhere waiting for him)

  32. 32 Echo
    September 19, 2011 at 8:46 pm

    Anne said: “You better ask JBR that question….he is the one that said you had to have faith.”

    It’s true that a person without faith won’t be saved. But that doesn’t mean that those people with faith are saved because of faith. Forgiveness leads to faith. Faith does not lead to forgiveness.

  33. September 19, 2011 at 11:16 pm

    so, if someone is raised in the deepest, darkest jungle and doesn’t KNOW he has forgiveness and hence cannot KNOW it leads to faith, is he lost?

    What about the millions of non-Christian people on the earth….are they lost?

  34. September 19, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    Echo,

    I also think that “faith does not lead to forgiveness” is a false statement.

  35. September 19, 2011 at 11:20 pm

    and don’t forget that “faith without works is dead” . So we NEED faith and we NEED works….as shown in Luke 10 that I quoted above.

  36. 36 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 1:07 am

    We discussed this in detail in another thread just recently.

  37. 37 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 1:31 am

    2 Corinthians 5:19 ” that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

    Not everyone in the world has faith. However Christ reconciled the WORLD to himself. Not counting men’s sins against them (forgiveness)

  38. 38 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 1:34 am

    “and don’t forget that “faith without works is dead” . So we NEED faith and we NEED works….as shown in Luke 10 that I quoted above.”

    Faith without works is dead. But works have nothing to do with gaining forgiveness or eternal life.

    Forgiveness and Eternal Life “no strings attached” first, then works.

    The LDS has it backwards….works first, then forgiveness and eternal life.

  39. 39 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 2:50 am

    JBR said, Q: :”If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?

    Because you have the impression God uses a balance scale that weighs “all you can do” good efforts against
    “all you FAILED to do” which allows you entrance into his presence. Truth is you’re nothing but dead weight Shem all on one side of that scale.”

    JBR, but you forget that Mormons believe that they can only be in God’s presence with Joseph Smith’s permission.

    To me, that is the most absurd thing I have ever heard as Smith had his own status with God to be concerned about to be thinking about anyone else’s status with God.

  40. September 20, 2011 at 3:13 am

    Kent,

    You need milk before prime rib.

    no wonder you do not understand.

  41. September 20, 2011 at 3:28 am

    all non-mormon people reading this blog:

    Christ atoned for our sins. He “freely” atoned for our sins. Meaning he was not compelled. He did it because He loves us and He honored His father by fulfilling this assignment.

    We can accept His gift or reject it. We are “free” to choose. We are not compelled to do so.

    His gift was NOT “free”, as in “without cost”.

    He requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repentance, faith, baptism, and works.

    All of these are outlined in the Bible. this is no secret.

    I truly do not understand why you folks claim to believe in the Bible, and then ignore its teachings.

    You all failed to answer my questions and Shem’s question. (your attempts make me dizzy)

    You failed because you do not know. Not your fault, perhaps, but you are still ignorant of the truths that are in that great book.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Christ upon the earth. We have the priesthood, the ordinances, Prophets, Apostles, Temples, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, Deacons, Seventy, Elders, Priests, High Priests, tithing, work for the dead (see 1 Peter), healings, the gift of tongues, and much, much more. We understand the doctrine of Christ. We see the WHOLE picture. The Old Testament is not a mystery to us because we know that Christ IS Jehovah and is the same yesterday, today and forever! Joseph is a prophet of God and WILL stand with Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses and Abraham. ( Only difference is that he has a last name!)
    I marvel when I read the Bible that you all don’t see it!! You need some spiritual glasses!

    Sorry you all are missing the boat.

    Echo….how will YOU feel when YOU find out our church is true? I hope Shem is there to teach you the truth and he (nor I) will even say, “I told you so!”

    (shem….I am not hoping for your early demise in order to be there to greet Echo in the Spirit world!)

  42. 42 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 5:49 am

    ” truly do not understand why you folks claim to believe in the Bible, and then ignore its teachings.”

    We don’t ignore any teachings of the Bible.

  43. 43 rechtglaubig
    September 20, 2011 at 5:49 am

    Shematwater,

    “Honestly, this is just going to go back to the same old argument: If Faith is a gift, than why do some people have it and others don’t?”

    The Bible says what it says and it says it clearly. I let God be God and don’t worry about it. I preach the Gospel that Christ died for all of us sinners because that is what I am told to do and let “the wind blow wherever it pleases” (John 3:8)

    “As to the Matthew quote, I fail to see how this makes him any different.”

    You asked why taking a swing at God would have the same consequence as murder. I quoted Matthew to show that even anger carries the same consequence as murder.

  44. 44 rechtglaubig
    September 20, 2011 at 6:02 am

    Hello Annemckee,

    No Paul and Joseph gain eternal life because Jesus lived a perfect life in their place, died for their sins, and rose from the dead, not by being born. Keeping the commandments are a response to what has been done for us, not as a means to gain anything. Salvation by Grace “Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:9).

    You can not boast when it is done for you, now can you? When we play our part in salvation, then we can take credit and boast, but scripture eliminates any attempt on our part of claiming credit for the role in our salvation when it says – no boasting.

  45. 45 rechtglaubig
    September 20, 2011 at 6:23 am

    “You all failed to answer my questions and Shem’s question. (your attempts make me dizzy)”

    Annemckee, can you point out what specifically was not answered? I am having trouble finding it.

  46. 46 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 8:19 am

    Anne said, “His gift was NOT “free”, as in “without cost”.

    He requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repentance, faith, baptism, and works.

    All of these are outlined in the Bible. this is no secret.”

    But His gift was paid for by a tremendous cost which He paid for in our place on the cross so that our debt is paid in full and there is nothing we can do to add to this free gift. Again, if it has anything to do with what we do, other than trusting and believing in Him and what He did, then it isn’t grace which is a free gift we don’t deserve and can never pay back.

    Anne, please receive His free gift that isn’t only after all you can do. It will set your free!

  47. 47 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 8:31 am

    I know Anne thinks I am just on a milk diet spiritually but I really, it seems clear as the nose on my face, which passage sounds correct?

    1. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    OR

    2.. I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me and with Joseph Smith’s permission.

    The first passage is of course correct and the second is, as I said, just plain absurd as if there was any way to Heavenly Father other than through Jesus Christ, Jesus would have told us so and we don’t need to add to what Jesus already did for us.

  48. 48 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Another absurdity is Jospeh Smith adding himself to the bible in the JST version at the end of Genesis. Smith is flat out not in the Bible.

    Mormons, show us where in the Bible, use the King James version, specificlaly where Smith is.

    As isn’t the King James Bible in the Mormon canon of scripture and the JST version is not?

    That is just a little curious if the additional teachings of Smith are supposed to be part of the restored gospel.

  49. 49 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 8:43 am

    Of course, the teachings of the prophesy that is at the end of Genesis in the JST version may be in other Mormon scripture but still this is stuff added on to the Bible, which is complete and the only scripture we need.

    But anyway, show me, using the King James Bible, where anyone like Smith is even talked about.

  50. 50 Kent
    September 20, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    What saves us?

    Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day.

    OR

    a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repentance, faith, baptism, and works.

    Yes, those things are a good thing but they don’t pay the penalty of a blood sacrifice that Jesus did when He paid our penalty for us in full by His work on the cross.

    I believe that we are not truly repentant unless we acknowledge that there is nothing we can ever do to save ourselves and that there is anything that we can do to contribute to the work Jesus already did.

    Again, saved means we are assured we will be with Heavnly Father forever and it doesn’t just mean we are going to live after we die on this earth with a chance to someday progress to be worthy enough to be with Him.

    The truth is, no one has ever been worthy ever except Jesus Christ.

    Romans 3:10

    As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one”

  51. September 20, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    rechtglaubig,

    no one ever answered my question or Shem’s question:” If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?”

    everyone danced around it, but no one answered it. Because there ARE strings attached.

    Christ taught that WE MUST DO something to be saved.
    1. have faith
    2. repent
    3. be baptized by proper authority, in the proper way, by immersion. (which is why He himself was baptized by John in the river Jordan with full immersion)
    4. righteous works

    IF we comply with these commandments, then the atoning sacrifice is made available to us. It is (as previously alluded to) our “ticket”.

    the above mentioned list are commandments. They, in and of themselves, can not save us. But, when we are obedient, we are “worthy” ( i know how y’all hate that word) of the Savior’s sacrifice. He has told us over and over that HE is the only way. HIS way is the only way! Well, following him and obeying him is HIS WAY!

    there is no boasting, no congratulating ourselves …..we are simply obeying Him and making his sacrifice work in our life. We are taking what he has “freely” offered us, using the means HE HAS PROSCRIBED.

    the Bible teaches this. . I believe that all scripture should be given equal weight. Some who post on this blog pick and choose their passages and the whole world turns on them. Try reading James, Ephesians, 1 and 2 Peter! It is all there.

    The Atonement is deep doctrine. One needs the Spirit to truly understand it. what I have explained is the short, simple version.

    ~anne

  52. 52 shematwater
    September 20, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    So, to sum it up again.

    Mark says that Eternal Life has no strings, because Christ has paid for our sins.

    Echo, who seemed to be going on a different idea has now clarified to be in agreement with Mark, just explaining it in a different way.
    “Where all sins are forgiven, there you have sinless perfection. Since forgiveness is a “no strings attached” gift that means eternal life is a “no strings attached” gift. One naturally leads to the other. Where you have forgiveness of sins, there you have sinless perfection and eternal life.”

    As Echo has already stated that we all have forgiveness of sins I will again ask the question: Why do we need to believe?

    The equation, as Echo gives it (in agreement with Mark) is this: Perfection = Eternal Life; Forgiveness = Perfection; thus Forgiveness = Eternal Life; As all are forgiven all have Eternal Life.
    So, where does faith come into the equation?
    Echo also says that “a person without faith won’t be saved.” But does this not contradict that fact that since all are forgiven all have eternal life?

    To sum up what Echo said “If you don’t come to school you will not graduate, but coming has no effect on your graduation.”
    Does anyone else see the inherent contradiction here?

    Again: If forgiveness is all that is needed to gain eternal life, and all people have already been forgiven, than why do I even need to believe? Should I not already gain eternal life, being freely forgiven? And If I am required to believe than how is eternal life free?

  53. September 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    kent,

    you said,”But His gift was paid for by a tremendous cost which He paid for in our place on the cross so that our debt is paid in full and there is nothing we can do to add to this free gift. Again, if it has anything to do with what we do, other than trusting and believing in Him and what He did, then it isn’t grace which is a free gift we don’t deserve and can never pay back.

    Anne, please receive His free gift that isn’t only after all you can do. It will set your free!”

    1. Do you think I am not saved? Shame on you :)

    2. I am not suggesting that ANYTHING we do adds to the Saviors atoning sacrifice. you are right, we can never get ahead of him, we can never pay him pack. BUT, we can obey him!

    3. “Grace” is not limited to the atoning sacrifice. Grace is all divine help we receive. Grace is love, tenderness, fidelity and every good thing that comes from God. When we obey and follow Him we do NOT offend him. He has commanded us to follow him! He has commanded us to be faithful, righteous people. Why in the world would that offend him?

    4. Our Savior expects us to obey Him as a show of our love for Him. There is nothing FREE about this whole process. It takes work. He wants us to become like Him. He is our advocate, he is our example, he is our brother and friend. He “freely” offered himself a ransom. He expects our obedience, repentance, faith, love, righteousness, even PERFECTION!! When we do ALL THAT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE, then he does the rest. He pays the price that we cannot, in our fallen, human condition, pay.

    Now, as far as Joseph is concerned:

    I will attempt to explain the Priesthood and keys associated with it to you.

    The Priesthood of God is the very power that governs the Universe. It is the power that God himself uses. He has given a portion of that power to man at various times in the history of earth. Prophets are typically the ones to have this authority given to them. Adam had Priesthood “keys”. (“keys” is the name given to the actual Priesthood powers that one has a right to use. There are keys for “presiding”, keys for “sealing”, etc) The Savior gave Priesthood keys to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration before he was crucified.

    {John the Baptist had priesthood keys that allowed him to baptize. (this is through the Aaronic priesthood)}

    Peter had the keys of “presiding” and as thus he was the President of the Church after the Savior died. Or as the Catholics called him, POPE. Meaning the Father, the leader, the boss, etc.

    Adam held the first keys, and is the Prophet of the first dispensation. A dispensation is a period of time when the Gospel is upon the earth. Enoch, Noah, Moses, Abraham, and others held keys and “presided” over the Church during other dispensations. (the Gospel was NOT always on the earth, there were many times when the people had rejected the prophets and there were no active Churches) Joseph is the Prophet of the restoration of the fullness of times. (which was prophesied of in the Bible).
    As such, he is the one who holds the keys of this dispensation. So, in that sense, he is the “father” of our time. He will also answer to, or “report” to Adam who is the Father of Humanity and Adam will ultimately answer to the Savior. The Lord’s Kingdom is a house of order. It is organized. there is accountability.
    You will, in a sense, ultimately have to get the approval of Joseph before your final judgment, since he is in charge of this dispensation. It was his mission and it was through him that the Priesthood was restored to the earth. YOU WILL HAVE TO AVAIL yourself of that priesthood before you can be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven. The way to do that would be through the ordinances of the Gospel. You MUST be baptized to be saved. There is ONLY ONE Priesthood on the Earth that is recognized by God. HIS Priesthood. It is only available through the Elders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    so, there you go. I am fully aware that this information will be had for derision among you all. But it is true.
    Every word is true.

    I am SO grateful that I was rescued from the world and have the “ticket” I need to progress to Eternal Life with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    ~anne

  54. 54 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    “no one ever answered my question or Shem’s question:” If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?”

    everyone danced around it, but no one answered it. Because there ARE strings attached.”

    Which part of my previous answers do you need further help understanding? I would be glad to explain it further for you.

  55. 55 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    Anne said: “He has told us over and over that HE is the only way. HIS way is the only way! Well, following him and obeying him is HIS WAY!”

    The Bible doesn’t say that his way is the only way or even the way. It says that HE IS the way…. “I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the father but by me”

    Mormonism would have to change that verse to read as follows…

    “my way is the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the father but by following my way”

  56. September 20, 2011 at 7:19 pm

    Christ is the way. His way is the way. You are quibbling with semantics and it just doesn’t work.

    I have been baptized in His name….just like he has commanded me. I am following his way, just like he commanded me. I repent daily, just like he commanded me. HIS WAY is the way he lived and taught and commanded.

  57. 57 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Shem said: “So, where does faith come into the equation?
    Echo also says that “a person without faith won’t be saved.” But does this not contradict that fact that since all are forgiven all have eternal life?”

    If I have a ticket to Mexico that I purchased for you sitting here at my house, how will that benefit you unless it is put in your hand? Will it benefit you if it is put in your hand but you reject it or throw it out?

  58. September 20, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    ok, one more time:

    IF there are NO strings attached, then why do we even need to believe???

    No one has addressed this question directly. Some have tried to change the subject, but can you honestly say that every man, woman, and child that has EVER lived on the earth is forgiven without ANY effort on their part? Christ paid the price for repentant sinners. And there are some sins that will send you to perdition….so I don’t think they are included.
    So, I do not know how you can say that. It is not true. Something is required….belief or faith at the bare minimum.

    belief in and of itself is a string…or a condition. repentance is a condition. faith is a condition. He has commanded us to believe, to repent, to be baptized, to have faith, to do righteous works…..all these things we have been commanded to do.
    How can YOU say there are NO conditions or strings?

    we must be baptized to be saved….
    we must repent to be baptized….
    baptism is for the remission of sins….
    when our sins are remitted we are forgiven….

    I don’t know of ANYWHERE in the Bible that says it is all FREE! there is a condition attached somewhere!

    Christ atoned for our sins of his own FREE will. He paid our debts so that if we repent, we do not have to pay the price of our own sins. Because we CAN’T pay the price ourselves. He, a perfect man, is the ONLY one that can pay.
    BUT….and this is a big but…..we must do our part! We must be humble, repentant, and obedient in order to qualify for his help!

    Why would the Apostles travel around and teach and preach the Gospel over and over if it was a freebie and you were “in like Flynn”? If you couldn’t “fall out of grace”, then why worry that the people were not obeying or keeping the commandments? They could have handed it out like cotton candy and life would have been a breeze!

    But, that is not the way it is! They traveled, wrote, worried, prayed and worked hard to change lives and encourage the people to keep the commandments….because it MATTERED!!!!!

    The Atonement is an amazing blessing! Our Savior is awesome! But, we MUST DO OUR PART!!!

    We must repent!
    We must be baptized!
    then we get to continue with faith and righteous works….and then at judgment we will meet him face to face and report what we did.

    He is our advocate and friend. He will judge our hearts.

  59. 59 RLO
    September 20, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Anne;

    You asked: “So, if someone is raised in the deepest, darkest jungle and doesn’t know he has forgiveness and hence cannot know it leads to faith, is he lost?”

    Ah yes . . . the “deepest, darkest, jungle” question . . . but yet again . . .

    For the number of times this question keeps getting asked, and keeps getting answered, both here and elsewhere, I can only conclude those, like you, who persist in asking it are not really seeking an answer, but are rather seeking to discredit the One who has provided the definitive answer in His Holy Word, where He tells us:

    “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being.”
    Acts 17:26-28

    “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
    Romans 1:20

    “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
    1 Timothy 2:3-4

    Anne: Since (1) God determines the times set and the exact places where each person should live, and since (2) God does this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, and since (3) God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, and because (4) men are without excuse;

    . . . in view of these clear words of God, who are you then, Anne, that you should continue questioning God? Stop asking the question. Start listening to the answer.

    No Anne. The problem isn’t that this question hasn’t been answered. The problem is that you don’t like the answer, and you refuse to accept the answer.

    But for those who choose to discredit God, and sneer at His answer?

    “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.”
    Romans 1:18-19

    However, if you are really so concerned about those in the deepest, darkest jungles, then why don’t you do something about it? There are missionaries right now dedicating their lives to translating the Bible into Nsenga, the native language of the people living in the region of Zambia. Do you sincerely care for those people who have a desperate need for God’s Word in their own native tongue? Do you support those missionaries with your financial gifts? Or will you only continue to use those less fortunate persons living in the deepest, darkest recesses of Africa as a backdrop for your cynical questions and your criticisms of others? Go ahead, Anne. Step up. Show us all what you’re really made of. Put your money where your mouth is. Or, rather, are you “all talk” and “no action”?

    You also asked, “What about the millions of non-Christian people on the earth….are they lost?”

    “Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
    John 14:6

    “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
    Acts 4:12

    Short answer? Yes. They are lost.

  60. 60 shematwater
    September 20, 2011 at 9:49 pm

    ECHO

    “If I have a ticket to Mexico that I purchased for you sitting here at my house, how will that benefit you unless it is put in your hand? Will it benefit you if it is put in your hand but you reject it or throw it out?”

    Then getting to Mexico has a string attached, and that is my receiving and accepting the ticket. Thus, you have contradicted your claim that Eternal Life is free with no strings attached, as accepting the required forgiveness and believing is a string that is attached.
    See my point? The only way to answer the question is to contradict the statement that caused it to be asked.

    If there are no strings attached that accepting and believing in it would not matter. If they do matter there are strings attached.
    I am not personally debating LDS doctrine in any way, only pointing out that your own is contradictory and illogical.

    RLO

    The question is answered, but to a satisfactory degree for anyone who is sensitive to the conditions of those people or the salvation of the human race.
    It has been said that all men are already forgiven. It has also been said that you need faith to take advantage of this forgiveness. The question was then asked, what of those who died never having even heard about Christ? Your answer: God put them there so they have no excuse and whatever happens is just.

    See how this just doesn’t satisfy the question being asked. You are basically saying you don’t know and telling us to shut-up about it.

    Note: Romans 1: 18-20 is talking about those who have heard the gospel and understand the doctrine, but still reject it in favor of unrighteous living. These people will have no excuse. It is not talking about all men. It does not include those who never heard the Gospel.
    19 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them (they know the truth); for God hath shewed it unto them. (it was revealed to them by God)”
    Show me where the truth of God was revealed to those in the Jungles of Africa and then you can apply this scripture to them.

    To conclude this I would like to ask one simple question: If they are without excuse, and the areas had no missionaries for several centuries, why does it matter if we send them now? If all men are, as you claim, without excuse because of where God put them, then what difference does it make if we go or not?
    You have the arrogance to imply that Anne doesn’t care when your entire doctrine is based on no need for care. When did you last serve a mission? How much have you given to the cause?
    I have no doubt that Anne supports the missionaries of the true church, but why should she or anyone else support the missionaries of a religion whose doctrine proves there is no need for them.

  61. 62 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    Shem said: “Then getting to Mexico has a string attached, and that is my receiving and accepting the ticket. Thus, you have contradicted your claim that Eternal Life is free with no strings attached, as accepting the required forgiveness and believing is a string that is attached.”

    Shem, how much did you pay for the ticket?

  62. September 20, 2011 at 10:51 pm

    good job, Shem. thanks for having my back. I have sworn off talking to RLO because of her past snarkiness. Looks like she is still up to her tricks.

    just in case anyone was wondering….I have sent 5 children on missions and YES, i support the missionaries of the one, true Church. The one that teaches (as does 1 Peter) that ALL mankind shall have the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it.

  63. 64 shematwater
    September 20, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    ECHO

    It doesn’t matter how much I paid for it. For there to be no strings attached there can be nothing required. Payment is only one thing that can be considered a string, but so can faith.

    In going with the analogy, in order to accept the ticket I have to have faith that it is valid and will get me to where I want to go, and thus I must have faith in the person that bought it for me. I must also get on the bus, or plane, or whatever transportation the ticket is for, and I must remain on it, or make all the appropriate scheduled changes that the ticket has laid out for me. All of these things I must do, for the person giving me the ticket can’t do them for me.

    Now, I think it would be more logical to say that no extra strings are attached, beyond those that all gifts carry of acceptance and belief. This statement would work out a little better for you.

    ANNE

    Just remember to forgive.

  64. 65 Echo
    September 20, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    Shem, why can’t you just ever answer the question without writing a novel? The fact is the ticket was free.
    The fact is forgiveness is free. So you go ahead and receive it but your recieving it didn’t pay a cent towards the cost of the ticket. Your recieving it didn’t do the work it took to get that ticket to you.

    Go ahead and take credit for recieving it if you wish. Only someone who has been as brainwashed as you could possibly want to take some credit for thinking that reieving it actually had something to do with getting this free gift.

  65. September 21, 2011 at 12:06 am

    Echo,

    If the ticket is free then why do we need to DO anything?????? that is the question!

    Why did the Lord say you MUST be baptized to be saved? Why does he say “keep my commandments”, why does he say “repent”?

    If it is free, then why isn’t every single person ever born on the earth going to heaven?

  66. September 21, 2011 at 12:07 am

    Shem,

    really? i have to forgive snarkiness? oh, OK….but that doesn’t mean that I will ever engage her in a conversation again!

  67. September 21, 2011 at 1:39 am

    I just had another question:

    why did the Savior teach us to pray “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”?

    IF HE had already forgiven us?

  68. 69 rechtglaubig
    September 21, 2011 at 1:58 am

    Annemckee,

    “no one ever answered my question or Shem’s question:” If there are no strings attached than why do we even need to believe?”

    I am sorry, I thought I made this pretty clear when I answered it.

    “Christ taught that WE MUST DO something to be saved.
    1. have faith
    2. repent
    3. be baptized by proper authority, in the proper way, by immersion. (which is why He himself was baptized by John in the river Jordan with full immersion)
    4. righteous works”

    1) First off, Faith is a gift from God, so believing isn’t anything that we “do”. Second, Faith in what? What does your Faith rest on or point towards? Mine points to the Forgiveness won for me by Christ. It is that solid fact (The Lamb of God that took away the sins of the world – John 1:29) that I trust and believe in.

    2) Change of heart/mind or “repentance” is something every Christian experiences at conversion.

    3) I do not recall immersion specifically commanded in the Bible text. Can you refresh my memory?

    4) God’s Law is like a chain. You break one link and you broke the thing. You can not keep the commandments. This is why we are told repetedly that it is not by works that we are saved – because we can not keep the law. Works are not the reason we are saved, they are the response to salvation won for us, out of love to God.

  69. September 21, 2011 at 2:43 am

    rechtglaubig,

    1. Faith. I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have faith that He loves me and knows me. I know that when I pray to my Father in His name I am heard. I have faith in the future. I have faith that his word is true. I have faith that if I keep His commandments, I will be blessed. Faith is a power. It is a blessing in my life….but it is not a gift given randomly. Faith is up to me. “Grace” is a gift. But Faith is mine to have or not to have. It is up to me. (i bet you are thinking of that passage in Ephesians…..but trust me, Grace is the gift, not faith)

    2. Repentance, although the word means “change of heart” is an action. It is also up to me to repent, the change my ways. This is a daily occurrence, not a one time event. It comes BEFORE baptism, not <> when I convert.

    3. Jesus Christ was immersed. Baptism is symbolic of being buried with Christ. If it is good enough for Jesus Christ, then it is good enough for me. He is our example. I follow Him.

    4. I CAN keep the commandments, and I do. I repent daily if I fail. I am constantly trying to improve myself. God does not give commandments that are impossible to keep. He does not lie. He is incapable of guile. He has commanded us to live righteously and do righteous works. I follow Him.

  70. 71 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 3:24 am

    Anne said: “If the ticket is free then why do we need to DO anything?????? that is the question!”

    Since God gives you a free ticket to heaven, don’t you think you would be grateful enough to want to obey his commandments? Isn’t getting a free ticket to heaven and awesome act of love God has shown for you? Wouldn’t that security and certainty that you will spend eternity with Heavenly Father just make you so grateful? Think about it, no fear whatsoever about where you spend eternity. No fear whatsoever about facing the judgment…. Just total and complete freedom to love and serve God and neighbor. Or do you think that gift stinks and you would rather try to earn your own ticket to heaven by obeying all God’s commandments, being Baptized etc? Did you know that works done as “strings” aren’t works at all? That’s right, the works one does to merit or become worthy are not good works. I gently and lovingly warn you that your works, will all burn up in the judgment.

    Either Jesus is the way, or he has provided a way.

    Jesus himself said he is the way. You believe he has only provided a way. Trust in Jesus or trust in yourself. Which one will it be? Jesus is not our example. Jesus is our substitute.

    Anne said: “If it is free, then why isn’t every single person ever born on the earth going to heaven?”

    This was talked about already in this thread. I don’t think I need to repeat it for those who don’t really want to know and learn and listen and think for themselves.

  71. 72 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 3:31 am

    Anne said: “I just had another question:
    why did the Savior teach us to pray “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”?
    IF HE had already forgiven us?”

    We need forgiveness every day. But that forgiveness was won in a one time event on the cross. Jesus doesn’t need to be crucified over and over for our forgiveness. He died once for all sin.

  72. 73 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 3:38 am

    Shem;

    You said, “To conclude this I would like to ask one simple question…”

    Which turned into, really, four, possibly five questions.

    1. “If they are without excuse . . . ”

    “If?” “If?” Scripture tells us they are without excuse. So “if” you want to question this, I suggest you take it up with the author.

    1. (continued) ” . . . why does it matter if we send them now?”

    Why? Because God gives us the privilege of participating in The Great Commission.

    2. “If all men are, as you claim, without excuse because of where God put them, then what difference does it make if we go or not?”

    Again, it’s not “my claim,” but God Himself who states it. So again, direct your question to the author.

    3. “When did you last serve a mission?”

    “Serve” in a mission? Or “supported a mission? I have never personally been a missionary. But I have supported a variety of missions over the past 18 years.

    4. “How much have you given to the cause?”

    Not really a question I would prefer to share publicly. But if you’re still interested in personally knowing the extent of my support for particular mission interests, here’s a “throw-away” email address I just created for you, where you can reach me:

    rloandshem@gmail.com

    Let me know if you send me something there, and I’ll check it.

    5. ” . . . but why should she or anyone else support the missionaries of a religion whose doctrine proves there is no need for them. (?)”

    Again, a flawed question that erroneously assumes our “doctrine proves there is no need for them.”

    You commented, “You have the arrogance to imply that Anne doesn’t care when your entire doctrine is based on no need for care.”

    ” . . . when your entire doctrine is based on no need for care.”

    Whether intentional or unintentional, this comment of yours is a gross mischaracterization of our doctrine.

  73. 74 JBR
    September 21, 2011 at 4:34 am

    Anne ….. “His gift was NOT “free”, as in “without cost”…. I don’t know of ANYWHERE in the Bible that says it is all FREE!”

    From the KJV:

    Romans 5:14-16
    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Romans 5:18
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Revelation 22:17
    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    I can’t believe how such a simple concept throws some of you into a tail spin.

    Revelation 22:17 …….. is the most clear that Jesus the reason you can not understand this “free gift” isn’t because the answer being told…..it’s because those who just can’t figure it out don’t hear, don’t see.

    It’s right there…………plain and simple.

  74. 75 JBR
    September 21, 2011 at 4:36 am

    should read————->

    Revelation 22:17 …….. is the most clear that Jesus revealed.
    The reason you can not understand this “free gift” revelation from Jesus isn’t because the answer is not being told…..it’s because those who just can’t figure it out don’t hear, don’t see.

  75. 76 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 4:42 am

    Anne;

    It is unfortunate you are so quick to spot “snarkiness” in another but not in yourself. I invite you to go back through all the posts on “Why witness to Mormons?” where all this started, and consider what your contribution was to all this “snarkiness” you speak of. In any event, perhaps you could focus less on RLO the messenger, and focus more on the message he is sharing with you, as well as the Bible passages he has quoted.

    RLO

  76. 77 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 5:25 am

    “But, that is not the way it is! They traveled, wrote, worried, prayed and worked hard to change lives and encourage the people to keep the commandments….because it MATTERED!!!!!”

    These things do matter. They just don’t save us.

  77. 78 rechtglaubig
    September 21, 2011 at 6:52 am

    1) I am sorry that you were not able to say that you had Faith that your Savior died for you and made you Righteous and Just in God’s eyes, that because Christ paid for your sins, with His precious blood, you have a guaranteed seat in Heaven. If Ephesians 2:8 is “that passage in Ephesians” you are referring to, then yes. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”. You are only half right. Grace and Faith are both gifts. You can see it plainly in the Greek. Grace and Faith are both feminine nouns. Paul doesn’t use a feminine pronoun, he uses the neuter pronoun “that” [τοῦτο] because he is referring to the whole statement he had just made proceeding it “For by grace are ye saved through faith”. Also, all through Ephesians Paul uses language that demonstrates that something is being done to us by God, not just one verse. Jesus Himself said it pretty plainly as well, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29)

    2) I simply stated that repentance happens at conversion, I do not deny that it is a daily occurrence. Don’t worry, it will happen when you finally convert.

    3) Saying again that Jesus was immersed still does not demonstrate where it is stated in scripture. I think you are quoting Romans 6:4? Since Jesus was not buried at sea, but was placed inside a tomb, this passage is not saying what you want it to say. Scripture just tells us to use water in the name of the Triune God, it is silent on how wet you need to be.

    4) You certainly can not keep the commandments; otherwise you would not be failing and needing to repent! Unless you are suggesting that you can do it, but don’t want to. More likely that is not the case and you are in the same boat as I am or Paul, who admits humbly, that, “when I would do good, evil is present with me” (Romans 7:21).

  78. September 21, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Echo and Recht,

    I don’t know of ANYWHERE in the Bible that says it is all FREE!”

    the key word there is “ALL”.

    over and over and over again we are told that this “free” gift has conditions.

    we must repent with Godly sorrow.
    we must bring forth fruit meet for repentance.
    we must be baptized for the remission of sins.

    Commandments are COMMANDMENTS, not suggestions.

    YES, I am grateful for all that has been done for me! Oh, my goodness yes! But I DO NOT obey because of my gratitude. I obey because I love to obey the Lord. I want to follow Him. I love my Heavenly Father. I want to be in line with Him. He has commanded me to obey and I want to please him. His commandments help me live a good life. they keep me safe from harm.

    I want to live with Him someday and in order to be fit for the Kingdom, I must learn on earth how to walk the walk.

    Jesus paid the price for my sins, AND IF I REPENT, AM BAPTIZED, HAVE FAITH AND PRODUCE RIGHTEOUS WORKS, then I can take advantage of that gift.

    You guys can produce a scripture passage from here or there that backs your claim, but you cannot deny that the theme of the ENTIRE BIBLE is to repent! To reform your life! To keep the commandments! My goodness, how many civilizations are wiped off the map (in the Old Testament) because they would not conform to God’s way??? Your argument simply does not hold water!

    and RLO……….You are DEAD WRONG when you say that some of God’s children are lost because they were unlucky enough to be born in the DEEPEST, DARKEST JUNGLE. I admit I love to test you guys on that subject. Because YOU have the lamest answers. That is the MAIN reason I looked in the true Gospel. I just knew that God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever WOULD NOT LEAVE SOME OF HIS CHILDREN out of the equation. He is fair. He is full of love. I can trust Him. The Savior himself went to teach the spirits who lived on the earth in the time of Noah….it is right in the Bible in 1 Peter! why would he teach them? Because they would still be judged by those teachings! They still have the chance to accept or reject the Gospel…..BECAUSE THE LORD IS FAIR!!!

    You guys DO do a pretty good job of taking Mark’s back. Sorry, but the facts are against you.

  79. 80 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    Anne;

    When my beliefs differ from those of another, I’d prefer to explain “what I believe” and “why I believe it,” rather than to shout at them that they’re “dead wrong,” or tell them that their “answers are lame. But I recognize that’s your style, so I’ll try to overlook it. But if I’m “ “dead wrong, then I guess those I quoted from in scripture (Jesus and Peter) are dead wrong too.

    The problem isn’t that God has left some of his children out of the equation; the problem is that some of his children have left God out of the equation.

  80. 81 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Anne said: “You guys can produce a scripture passage from here or there that backs your claim, but you cannot deny that the theme of the ENTIRE BIBLE is to repent! To reform your life! To keep the commandments! My goodness, how many civilizations are wiped off the map (in the Old Testament) because they would not conform to God’s way??? Your argument simply does not hold water!”

    We believe in Baptism, in Repentance, in obedience to the commandments etc. So your statements here do not apply to us.

    While we believe in keeping the commandments, keeping those commandments isn’t a condition to entering eternal life or being forgiven.

    A married couple who gives birth to children does not place those newborn children outside of their own home, then give them a worthiness list ( a list they must spend their whole lives trying to live up to) and then invite them back home only after the children have made themselves worthy. No. That’s not love. (This is Mormonism)

    The reality is that a married couple who gives birth to children takes those children home with them the day they were born. They then love and raise those children in the way they should go. That’s love. (This is biblical Christianity) Eternal life is a free gift. It is our Heavenly Father’s home.

  81. September 21, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    Echo,

    your analogy is not a good one at all. (proverbial apples and oranges)

    we are talking about God SENDING his mature, responsible children out into the world to prove themselves. We are not talking about bringing a BABY home….a defenseless, innocent baby. two different things entirely!

    NEXT:

    you said:

    “While we believe in keeping the commandments, however keeping those commandments isn’t a condition to entering eternal life or being forgiven.”

    sorry, not true, and the Bible backs me up 100%! And it gets “worse”!

    You also have to ENDURE TO THE END in order to be saved. (Matthew 10:22)

    And a note to RLO:

    MY Heavenly Father is fair. MY Heavenly Father will give each of His children the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    YOU can take scripture out of context all you like! It doesn’t change the truth.

    Sheesh! In one thread we have YOU telling me that millions upon millions of people are lost, and Echo telling me that EVERYONE is forgiven and saved! Which is it? It is a mass of confusion and all the while our esteemed host, Mark, sits back and doesn’t say a word!

    I am so glad I have the truth! What a contrast!

  82. 84 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    Anne said: “Sheesh! In one thread we have YOU telling me that millions upon millions of people are lost, and Echo telling me that EVERYONE is forgiven and saved! Which is it? It is a mass of confusion and all the while our esteemed host, Mark, sits back and doesn’t say a word!”

    I said everyone is forgiven. I didn’t say everyone is saved.

  83. 85 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Anne said: “your analogy is not a good one at all. (proverbial apples and oranges)

    we are talking about God SENDING his mature, responsible children out into the world to prove themselves. We are not talking about bringing a BABY home….a defenseless, innocent baby. two different things entirely!”

    So you have painted the picture that mature, responsible children must prove themselves worthy to go home to their parents one day. Not a better picture.

  84. 86 Echo
    September 21, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Compared to God, no man/woman is anywhere near maturity or responsible as you claim.

  85. September 21, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    God knows us. He knows what we are capable of. One of the best things someone can find out on this earth is WHO he is and WHAT he is doing here.

    I know who I am. I know why I am here.

    You better re-read this thread. Numerous times you (or the others) equate forgiveness with salvation.

    You are the one who started the “ticket” analogy. So, according to you guys, you can receive a ticket (forgiveness?) but be denied Eternal life (RLO’s theory)?

    And correct me if I am wrong….did you just say this: “Eternal life is a free gift. It is our Heavenly Father’s home”?

    I think you are confusing yourself!

  86. 88 shematwater
    September 21, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    RLO

    You told Anne “When my beliefs differ from those of another, I’d prefer to explain “what I believe” and “Why I believe it,” rather than to shout at them that they are dead wrong…”

    Yet, in all your comments to me you have yet to explain “what you believe,” but have preferred to explain “what God teaches” and tell me that if I disagree I have problems. A little bit of hypocrite, aren’t you?
    For example: I asked the question that if what you believe is true (men being without excuse) than why do we need to send missionaries. What was your first response to this?
    “If? If? Scripture tells us they are without excuse.”
    You shouted at me, mocking the question because it portrayed a belief that was different than what you believe. You didn’t explain what you believe and why you believe it, but attempted to shut out anything contrary to what you believe so you didn’t have to explain it.

    However, I will explain my different belief, and why I believe it, and thus why I ask the question.
    You use Romans 1: 18-20 to prove that man is without excuse. However, in reading this such phrases as “God shewed it unto them” and “who hold the truth in unrighteousness” clearly show that he is not talking about all men, but about those who have the truth of the gospel revealed to them (such as the Jews) and who still refuse to follow it. These people will have no excuse for the judgments that God will pass on them. It does not mention, and thus cannot be applied, to those who never had the truth revealed to them

    So, if your interpretation is right than can you answer the question. I can answer it very well if mine is right.

    Speaking of your answers so far, you have failed to give anything credible and continue with the same unsatisfactory explanations.
    Why does it matter? Because it is our privilege? Come on. I am not asking what good it does for us, but what good it does for those we go too. We may be privileged to be part of this Great Commission, but what is the purpose of the Commission? Why are we commanded to go? You have not yet given any real answer to the purpose of it, except that it is a privilege, which is no answer.

    Concerning any miss-characterization, I simply follow things to their logical conclusion based on the information provided. If those who lived without Christian missionaries in the past did not need them because God has left all men without excuse, then it logically follows that those currently living without said missionaries also do not need them, as God has left all men without excuse. However, if those in the modern day require missionaries than those in the past would have also required missionaries.
    It is the logical and inevitable conclusion of what you have said.

  87. 89 shematwater
    September 21, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    ECHO

    First, I give the answers I give because I am answering your comment, not your question. The intentions of the comment must be considered before giving a response, and if the intentions cannot be adequately answered by responding only to the surface question I will not give such and answer.

    Now, you have stated that “Where all sins are forgiven, there you have sinless perfection. Since forgiveness is a “no strings attached” gift that means eternal life is a “no strings attached” gift. One naturally leads to the other”
    So, if one naturally leads to the other than all who are forgiven should have eternal life, and yet you deny this when you state “I said everyone is forgiven. I didn’t say everyone was saved.” You have laid out the equation and than stated that it does really work.
    Can you see why this is contradictory and confusing? It is like telling someone that 2 + 3 = 5 but 3 + 2 doesn’t.

    Then you come in with the ever popular “Parent” analogy, and claim, rather ridiculously, that a good parent would never require their child prove himself. This argument fails so completely every time that I find it amazing you would bring it up again.
    Not only this, but it contradicts everything we know about human psychology. Your method of parenting is what leads to spoiled brats who feel they can commit any sort of crime and have no consequence because their parents will always make it better. It does not, nor can it lead to well adjusted adults who contribute to society in a constructive way.
    A good parent sets the rules and abides by them, and does not allow their children to violate any law without facing the just consequence of that violation. This is shown perfectly in the Law of Moses when parents are commanded to bring their children to the elders to be executed if the children continually violate the law and sanctity of society. God would not give such a law if it was contrary to good parenting.

    Lastly, I would like to touch on your argument of Gratitude, which also fails every time. The basic premise is that the gift of eternal life is so great we are going to be so grateful that we obey all the laws out of gratitude. There are a few problems with this argument.
    1. Gratitude has never been a very powerful motivator. Try giving a student a new car on the first day of school (putting it in their name, the whole works) and then tell them that you expect them to get good grades. Better yet, give them a mansion to live in and a bank account with limitless funds in it, and then tell them they need to go to school. The chances are not that great.
    In a similar way, if God has already guaranteed eternal life without any action on our part, the chances of any action are severely reduced.
    2. We will bring in your parenting style and point out that a child who has been spoiled, knowing that the parents will never follow through with their threats is not going to care how much you give them; they will always do what they want.

    What you have basically taught is that God is raising us to be spoiled children, but hopes we will be well adjusted. Seems a bit naive to me.

  88. 90 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 9:07 pm

    Shem;

    Let’s not you and I get into word battles. Just as you are convinced that what you believe is what God teaches, I too am convinced that what I believe is what God teaches. For each of us, they are one and the same thing. It’s a distinction without a difference. I didn’t drop the “H-bomb” on you, calling you a hypocrite, for simply being convinced that your belief system is consistent with what God teaches. I’m not sure why you would choose to call me a hypocrite for having the same convictions within my own belief system. Unless your intention was to draw attention away from Anne’s less than civil approach to me – in which case, I guess you’ve succeeded.

    You said, “You shouted at me, mocking the question because it portrayed a belief that was different than what you believe.”

    Well, first, I didn’t shout at you. Italics are for emphasis – CAPS are for shouting. And I wasn’t mocking the question either. Rather, I was pointing out that the question portrayed a belief that is not only contrary to what I believe, but much more, portrayed a belief that is also contrary to what Scripture clearly states. It’s difficult to answer questions that are flawed by false insinuations. I’m sorry you felt I was shouting at you. I wasn’t.

    You said: “Concerning any mis-characterization, I simply follow things to their logical conclusion based on the information provided. If those who lived without Christian missionaries in the past did not need them because God has left all men without excuse, then it logically follows that those currently living without said missionaries also do not need them, as God has left all men without excuse. However, if those in the modern day require missionaries than those in the past would have also required missionaries.
    It is the logical and inevitable conclusion of what you have said.”

    I can’t help notice how much logic plays a part in your belief system (you and I have talked about this before). Logic and reason are wonder gifts from God. I certainly don’t dismiss them. But logic and reason do not stand in judgment of Scripture. Where reason and Scripture are at odds, it is not Scripture that needs to yield, but rather, reason that needs to yield. Rather than allowing reason to stand in judgment over scripture, let reason sit at the foot of Scripture. Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.

    RLO

  89. 91 shematwater
    September 21, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    RLO

    I called you a hypocrite because you addressed my comment with the clear indication that I was dead wrong, and then complained when Anne said that you were dead wrong. After all, she was simply convinced that her belief system was in line with God.
    I was simply pointing out what you had done, and are now trying to deny. I admit you were not so obvious in your words, but the meaning was there.

    Now, as I pointed out, my question was in no way contradictory to what the scripture clearly states. It is contrary to what you believe the scripture states, and that is it. You are once again not doing what you claimed you prefer to do (telling what you believe) but are instead trying to pass off what you believe as the only possible belief.

    Now, I have had the discussion on logic with many people, and none of them have ever given me any valid reason for accepting what you teach beyond “this is how it is done.” Of course, what you really mean is that we are not supposed to apply logic to your beliefs. I am sorry, but if the interpretation of a scripture that is presented is not logical I am not going to just accept it. God is not the author of confusion, which is what the lack of reason and logic leads to.
    I rely on logic and reason, because God has invited us to do so. “Let us reason together,” he invites (Isaiah 1: 18). How can anyone say we should set reason aside for that which is unreasonable, when God himself has invited us to reason it out?
    Scripture does not bow to reason, but its true meaning will always be reasonable and logical. As such, anything that is not reasonable and logical cannot be the true meaning of scripture. This is my approach, and the one that God has invited us to take. Join me and him and learn of his great truths.

  90. 92 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 9:52 pm

    “I called you a hypocrite because you addressed my comment with the clear indication that I was dead wrong…”

    I addressed your comment with the clear indication that it was inconsistent with Scripture. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    “Join me and him and learn of his great truths.”

    Just as you can’t join me because you don’t believe I have the truth, I cannot join you because I don’t believe you have the truth. But at least for the meantime, we can still share with each other what we each believe and why we each believe it, and do so in a respectful manner.

  91. 93 shematwater
    September 21, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    RLO

    “I addressed your comment with the clear indication that it was inconsistent with scripture.”

    In all truth you addressed it with the direst statement that it was inconsistent with scripture, and thus implying that it was dead wrong.
    You said “scripture tells us they are without excuse.” This is a direct statement, not an implication from a direct statement. The direct statement indicates that to even suggest that what you said is not true is wrong. After all, if reason is to bow to scripture than how can anything inconsistent with scripture be right?

    You are now trying to cover up what you have done, and it isn’t working.

  92. 94 RLO
    September 21, 2011 at 11:50 pm

    You state: “You are now trying to cover up what you have done, and it isn’t working.”

    What I have said, I have said. I am not covering it up, I do not attempt to cover it up, and I do not desire to cover it up. I stand by it. And what Scripture states, it states. And because Scripture states it, it is true, and I believe it. Period.

    You state: “In all truth you addressed it with the direst statement that it was inconsistent with scripture, and thus implying that it was dead wrong.”

    Yes I did. Emphatically. Because in fact, it is inconsistent with scripture. Obviously that implies that I too believe what is inconsistent with what scripture states is wrong. But that is certainly a whole lot different than simply shouting at someone that they are wrong, and that their answers are lame.

    You ask: “After all, if reason is to bow to scripture, then how can anything inconsistent with scripture be right?”

    Exactly. It can’t.

    I believe Scripture is inspired, inerrant, and infallable. You don’t apparently. That, in part, may explain the differences in our beliefs.

  93. 95 shematwater
    September 22, 2011 at 2:28 am

    RLO

    And thus you are a hypocrite, for Anne simply stated that what you said was inconsistent with scripture and thus wrong. The only difference is that she was blunt about it and you were a little more subtle.
    I never said you were a hypocrite for criticizing her methods. I criticize them. I think she could do a lot better in the way she presents things. I called you a hypocrite because you claimed to discuss in a particular manner, but in responses to me have not used that method.
    You said that if beliefs differ than you will discuss “what you believe” and “why you believe it” and yet in your reply to me, as is supported in this last statement, you have not state “what you believe” and “why you believe it,” but have stated your beliefs as fact. As such you have acted in a hypocritical way, and are thus a hypocrite.

    I really have no desire to debate the subject anymore, as you will never admit to the error you have made. So, I will once again show you how nothing I said is inconsistent with scripture. This is me telling you “what I believe” and “why I believe it.” Let us see if you can actually engage in this kind of discussion.

    Romans 1: 18-21 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

    Now, you used this passage to support your claim that no man will be without excuse. Of course you use a different translation than I do, but oh well.
    As I said before, I do not see your interpretation, for a few reasons.
    1. We read in verse 18 the phrase “who hold the truth in unrighteousness,” which would indicate that they had the truth, or were in possession of it.
    2. We read in verse 20 that “God hath revealed it unto them.”
    3. In verse 21 we are told that “they knew God” but did not “glorify him as God” and instead “became vain in their imaginations” and their “heart was darkened.” Take especial note of this, as it is something that has occurred after they knew God, and is not speaking of their state before knowing God.

    These three phrases clearly show that Paul is speaking to those who receive the truth (such as the Jews in Rome to whom he is writing) and still decide to pursue wickedness. He is speaking of those that have the truth but discard it in favor of worldly pleasure. As such he is not talking about those who have never received the truth, such as those in the deepest darkest Jungle.
    So, from the very same passage of scripture I would say that it is your belief that is inconsistent with the Bible and is thus wrong, which is why I asked the question that I did.

    If you really want to discuss “what you believe” and “why you believe it” explain why you think this passage has the meaning you think it does. Do not simply tell me that it does and I am wrong, as doing so is exactly what you said you wouldn’t do.

  94. 96 RLO
    September 22, 2011 at 4:20 am

    Shem;

    you said, “I called you a hypocrite because you claimed to discuss in a particular manner, but in responses to me have not used that method.”

    You choose to see in me, only what you want to see in me – a hypocrite. In order to see a hypocrite, you have to mischaracterize what I said by putting your own spin on it. You state that “I claim” to discuss in a particular manner but then respond in a different manner. But let’s look at what I really said:

    “When my beliefs differ from those of another, I’d prefer to explain “what I believe” and “why I believe it,” rather than to shout at them that they’re “dead wrong,” or tell them that their “answers are lame.
    (September 21, 2011 at 3:32 pm)

    As I’m certain any fair-minded person can see, what I have expressed is a conditional preference (…I would prefer…) for civil discussions over the incivility of shouting at others that they are “WRONG,” and telling them that their “answers are lame.” Granted, it isn’t always easy to maintain that degree of civility when someone is shouting at you, insulting you, calling you names, and accusing you of being a hypocrite. Nonetheless, it is my preference. Even so, in the face of unrelenting incivility, a preference for civility sometimes becomes the first casualty. But does that make someone a hypocrite? I think not.

    Since you have personally attacked me with mischaracterizations, and so quickly (and falsely) labeled me as a hypocrite, I doubt any further discussion between you and me is appropriate.

    RLO

  95. 97 rechtglaubig
    September 22, 2011 at 5:54 am

    Annemckee: “Jesus paid the price for my sins, AND IF I REPENT, AM BAPTIZED, HAVE FAITH AND PRODUCE RIGHTEOUS WORKS, then I can take advantage of that gift. You guys can produce a scripture passage from here or there that backs your claim”

    Yes. I might be able to produce a scripture from here or there to back up my position.

    “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Romans 3:21-26)

    “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

    “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1)
    “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:38-39)

    “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6)

    “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:4-5)

    “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect“ (Romans 4:13-14)

    “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21)

    “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:46-47)

    “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:28)

    Annemckee: “but you cannot deny that the theme of the ENTIRE BIBLE is to repent! To reform your life! To keep the commandments! My goodness, how many civilizations are wiped off the map (in the Old Testament) because they would not conform to God’s way??? Your argument simply does not hold water!”

    Actually, the theme of the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments, is Christ.

  96. 98 shematwater
    September 22, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    RLO

    Just one question: Was I being uncivil when you declared me to be wrong; and then not even in statement but in question?

    This is my point. You claim to prefer civil discussion, and yet I was being civil and you decided not to discuss, but to simply tell me I was wrong. Your response to me was not civil, though it was more civil than Anne. Though it was arguable just as uncivil, but more subtle; for you basically told me that I had to be wrong to even consider asking it, not that my answer to it was wrong, as Anne did.

    I agree that discussion on this is pointless, however, as you simply can’t see how your statements to me are exactly what you complaining about in Anne.
    Just a final note, I never resort to “name calling” unless the person has first begun the insults to me or my friends, and then I do it only to point out what I see as errors in their own words. If I call you a hypocrite or anything else it is in response to an insult, which I will always point out.

  97. 99 Echo
    September 22, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Shem said: “Can you see why this is contradictory and confusing? It is like telling someone that 2 + 3 = 5 but 3 + 2 doesn’t.”

    This is why it is contradictory and confusing to you…

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”

    Where does Jesus endure the pain of the sins of the world? In the Garden of Gethsemane or on the cross? Not in the Garden of Gethsemane but on the cross! Mormonism is wrong. Dead wrong. Jesus endured the pain of the sins of the world on the cross and it KILLED him. GOD DIED.

    Shem said: “Then you come in with the ever popular “Parent” analogy, and claim, rather ridiculously, that a good parent would never require their child prove himself. This argument fails so completely every time that I find it amazing you would bring it up again.
    Not only this, but it contradicts everything we know about human psychology. Your method of parenting is what leads to spoiled brats who feel they can commit any sort of crime and have no consequence because their parents will always make it better. It does not, nor can it lead to well adjusted adults who contribute to society in a constructive way.”

    I don’t know how to respond to this Shem other than to say you really don’t listen to what I say. You don’t hear. Because I did say something earlier that would not lead any non Mormon person to the conclusion you have come to. And even if I hadn’t said that, no non Mormon would conclude what you have concluded.

    Shem said: “Gratitude has never been a very powerful motivator…”

    What is your motivator? Becoming a God? Gaining forgiveness? Gaining power and reward? All selfserving.

    Shem said: “Try giving a student a new car on the first day of school (putting it in their name, the whole works) and then tell them that you expect them to get good grades. Better yet, give them a mansion to live in and a bank account with limitless funds in it, and then tell them they need to go to school. The chances are not that great. In a similar way, if God has already guaranteed eternal life without any action on our part, the chances of any action are severely reduced.”_

    Let’s not compare God’s unconditional love (the real motivator here because we serve out of gratitude for God’s unconditional love) with money, cars, mansions. That’s truly pathetic Shem. But it shows me where your heart is focused.

  98. 100 RLO
    September 22, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Now, Echo? Now? Finally? After all these years? Is it not woefully long overdue for all of us to invoke Titus 3:10? For does not Titus 3:11 perfectly describe what we have here?

    “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” Titus 3:10-11

    Good bye Mormons. May you not squander what remaining time of grace you have left.

  99. 101 shematwater
    September 22, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    ECHO

    Where did the cross and Gethsemane come from? And why the misrepresentation of LDS doctrine?
    This second part is to expected, as you have never given an accurate depiction of LDS doctrine, but still, it has little baring on the topic.
    I have to conclude that you are saying that since I believe in the significance of the events in the Garden of Gethsemane I cannot understand how what you say is not contradictory. Good way to side step the issue.

    To clarify, Jesus Christ felt the suffering of the world in the Garden of Gethsemane, but he paid the price for sins on the Cross. This is LDS doctrine.

    Now, I listen to everything you say, and I respond to it. Your method of parenting, as described by you, will result in what I described, as proven countless time by psychology. So either you did a very poor job of explaining it, or you are once again simply avoiding the issue.

    But then, if you feel you have the ability to judge my motives and actions, then I guess avoiding the issues is no problem.
    Let me clarify a few things: My motivation is has nothing to do with reward, nor is it caused by gratitude. I am motivated by my love for my Heavenly Father, and I seek to please him because I love him and I know he loves me. While I am grateful, if that gratitude was not coupled with love it would have little effect.

    Of course, we can always just through insults around, which seems to be where everything ends up with you in these discussions. Again, this is expected, as you don’t seem to be able to actually argue against what I have said and so you have to deflect the topic away from it.
    How about we actually discuss this, and you respond to my points, rather than trying to dismiss them with arrogance and self-righteousness.

  100. 102 Echo
    September 22, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    Shem said: “Where did the cross and Gethsemane come from? And why the misrepresentation of LDS doctrine? This second part is to expected, as you have never given an accurate depiction of LDS doctrine, but still, it has little baring on the topic. I have to conclude that you are saying that since I believe in the significance of the events in the Garden of Gethsemane I cannot understand how what you say is not contradictory. Good way to side step the issue. ”

    .

    I said: “Where does Jesus endure the pain of the sins of the world? In the Garden of Gethsemane or on the cross? Not in the Garden of Gethsemane but on the cross! Mormonism is wrong. Dead wrong. Jesus endured the pain of the sins of the world on the cross and it KILLED him. GOD DIED.”

    From http://www.lds.org here is the quote, you can find it written right below the video:

    “Jesus endures the pain of the sins of the world in the Garden of Gethsemane”

    From: (http://lds.org/media-library/video/new-testament-stories?lang=eng&query=garden+gethsemane#2010-11-55-chapter-51-jesus-suffers-in-the-garden-of-gethsemane)

    Which is EXACTLY what I said. No more, no less.

    Shem, when are you going to speak the truth? I always tell my son that you can’t trust anything someone says who doesn’t speak the truth.

  101. 103 Echo
    September 22, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    Viewpoint on Mormonism- Mormon Ignorance or Deception …

    PART 1

    [audio src="http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.08.30.Mormon.ignorance.or.deception.1.mp3" /]

    PART 2

    [audio src="http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.08.31.Mormon.ignorance.or.deception.2.mp3" /]

    PART 3

    [audio src="http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.01.Mormon.ignorance.or.deception.3.mp3" /]

  102. September 22, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    echo,

    I did not even finish your post because this glaring error stood out to me like a neon light.

    you said: “Jesus endured the pain of the sins of the world on the cross and it KILLED him. GOD DIED.”

    this is wrong. Jesus Christ GAVE HIS LIFE. He had the power to give it or not. NOTHING COULD KILL HIM.

    just thought I would make that point….now I will go back and read the rest of your post. :)

    ~Anne

  103. September 22, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    anybody else notice that this was a civil discourse until RLO showed up???

    I sure did.

    Good bye RLO…happy trails!

  104. September 22, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    Echo,

    ok, i read the rest of the post. Just curious….why would you minimize the Savior’s suffering? He obviously suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. You can read about it right there in your Bible. I do not understand, except that you (and others ) are so set against Mormons that you look for any little detail and rail against it.

    I am grateful that the Savior took upon himself the sins of the world! I don’t really think it matters where he was when it happened. …..but heaven forbid Joseph Smith was right about something!

    ~Anne

  105. 107 Echo
    September 22, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Anne said: “NOTHING COULD KILL HIM”

    Your sin and mine KILLED him. Don’t minimize sin. Don’t minimize the Savior’s suffering.
    Yes he willingly took the punishment both you and I deserve for our sins and it KILLED him.

  106. September 22, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    Our sins did NOT KILL HIM. that is ridiculous, perhaps THE MOST RIDICULOUS thing I have ever read on this blog! He is a God. He has power over life and death. HE GAVE HIS LIFE. He could have stopped the Roman Soldiers with a blink of his eye! He gave His life because he promised he would be our Savior and Redeemer. He did not let the “cup” pass. He was in total control the entire time. HIS GIFT was that he freely, willingly, gladly gave his life for us. NO ONE HAD THE POWER TO TAKE IT! And “sin” certainly does not have the power to kill a God. R.I.D.I.C.U.L.O.U.S.

    These facts in NO WAY minimize his suffering. no one else could have done it but a God.

    sorry, Shem if this is too tough! echo needs to be called on this one!

  107. 109 Echo
    September 22, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    Anne said: “Our sins did NOT KILL HIM. that is ridiculous, perhaps THE MOST RIDICULOUS thing I have ever read on this blog!”

    Your argument isn’t with me, it is with God.

    He was delivered over to death for our sins….

    Romans 4:25 “He was delivered over to death for our sins

    1 Corinthians 15:3 “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,”

    Hebrews 9:15 “now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant”

    1 Peter 3:18 “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,”

    And it KILLED him…

    Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.”

    Acts 3:15 “You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.”

    Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.”

    Acts 7:52 ” Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

    Acts 10:39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,”

    1 Thess 2:15 ” who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men”

  108. September 22, 2011 at 11:25 pm

    REEEEEEEEEEEEEE diculous!!!!!

    Re: Acts 3:13. KJV has it right: …..hath glorifed his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.” Yes he was delivered up.

    Re: Acts 7:52 Stephen was taking the Jews to task for killing the prophets! He above all would know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and was God! NO ONE CAN KILL GOD. (incidentally, I use caps for emphasis, not shouting :)

    I don’t have time to go through all the other scriptures, but for all intents and purposes, the Jews killed Jesus. They had no compassion and were evil, wicked people. It is no coincidence that they suffer to this day because of their actions. But, they did not, could not kill God. The Savior “gave up the ghost”. He was in charge.

    It is blasphemous to say that a “sin” could kill him. It is absurd to say that ANYONE OR ANYTHING could kill him.

    I am really flabbergasted with this!

    Is this just an “Echo thing” or do the rest of you believe this too?

    I am really dying to know, because this is a key point of doctrine.

    ~Anne

  109. September 22, 2011 at 11:50 pm

    I am still shaking my head.

    the E.N.T.I.R.E. point of the Atonement is that Christ GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US!!!!

    If you don’t understand that, then I am not sure you understand anything!

    WOW AND DOUBLE WOW!!

    Hey, Mark….is this what you teach at your Church???

  110. 112 Echo
    September 23, 2011 at 12:11 am

    Anne said: “Re: Acts 7:52 Stephen was taking the Jews to task for killing the prophets! He above all would know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and was God! NO ONE CAN KILL GOD. (incidentally, I use caps for emphasis, not shouting :)”

    Acts 7:52 in the KJV states: “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:”

    The “Just One” is Jesus. Then the verse says: “Of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers”
    In other words, They betrayed and murdered Jesus.

  111. September 23, 2011 at 12:26 am

    Oh wow….You really believe this??? You really believe that someone, some mortal peon could murder the Son of God?

    The whole Gospel of Jesus Christ rests on the foundation of his Divine Nature. HE IS A GOD! He is the creator of the earth and everything on it!

    This is stunning. The Good News is that JESUS IS THE CHRIST!!!

    No one can murder God. this is beyond ridiculous. I see now that you have NO understanding of the most basic principle of the Gospel!

    No wonder your other answers are so dumb.

    sorry, but this is just dumb! this is so dumb!

    I want to bear my testimony to you, Echo, (who I suspect is really Mark, or Keith) Someday you will have to learn this for yourself, but until then, I want you to know how utterly and completely wrong you are about this.

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is an immortal, perfect man. He was not murdered, he could not be murdered and to suggest that he was is complete and total blasphemy!

    Hopefully someday you will come to understand the truth about the Gospel. But for now, buddy, you have built your house on pure, unadulterated SAND!!

    AND, IF THERE ARE ANY MORMONS READING THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE WONDERING IF OUR CHURCH IS TRUE…..YOU DO NOT HAVE TO READ ANY FURTHER FOR YOUR PROOF!!!

    Anyone that would say that some lousy human could kill the Son of God is NOT representing a true religion.

    wow……this is amazing.

  112. 114 Echo
    September 23, 2011 at 12:41 am

    Anne said: ” Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is an immortal, perfect man. He was not murdered, he could not be murdered and to suggest that he was is complete and total blasphemy!”

    God’s word testifies that he was murdered.

  113. September 23, 2011 at 1:10 am

    The Jews murdered him in their hearts.

    THEY COULD NOT MURDER GOD.

    He GAVE his life. If they took it then he was a stupendous failure. and he was NOT. if they took his life then he was a lie. and he was NOT. If a mere mortal could stop the Son of God then we are hosed……and we are NOT.

    You have missed the boat….completely as a matter of fact you are not even on the dock.

  114. 116 Echo
    September 23, 2011 at 1:16 am

    Anne. Don’t make stuff up out of your imagination and imply that it is true. Your comment: “The Jews murdered him in their hearts” is just not biblical. Your church is not biblical. They pick and choose only the verses that fit with their false doctrine. Most of those taken out of context or twisted, added to or subtracted from.

    Believe God’s own testimony that he has shared with you. That testimony says Jesus was murdered. Don’t add to those words or subtract from them. The unforgivable sin is unbelief. Don’t remain hardened in it. The only testimony that matters is God’s. Period.

  115. September 23, 2011 at 1:54 am

    You, who don’t even believe in the supreme authority of God and YOU are telling me MY HEART is hardened?

    oh, what a joke.

    I have never in my life seen someone like you. Rather than admit that you are DEAD WRONG, you want to preach to me about what is “biblical”.

    Do you think the Jews had anything to do with the hatred of Jesus? I do. They conspired against him. Saying they murdered him in their hearts is indeed biblical. The Pharisees plotted against him. Those plots, as do all evil plots, began in their hearts. you are handicapped by your religion..you are blind. 100% blind. You can not even think for yourself. too, too sad.

    how about these scriptures…and why don’t these scriptures have as much weight as yours?

    1 Timothy 2:6 “who GAVE himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

    Galatians 1:4 “Who GAVE himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father”

    Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

    John 15:13 “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man LAY DOWN his life for his friends.”

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. HE WAS NOT Not an ordinary man that could be crucified. YOU have the hard heart.

    You are wrong, but you are also too proud to admit it!

    *****************************************************************************************************************************************

    and WHERE are you, Mark? Are you going to weigh in on this? I am really curious to find out if the rest of you “Christians” (Christians that deny Christ…..oh, wow) think the way that Echo does.

    *******************************************************************************************************************************************

  116. 118 shematwater
    September 23, 2011 at 2:09 am

    ANNE

    I have to say that, though I agree with you, I think you are a little too insensitive. I am not talking about Echo, but I think you should have left the suffering of the Jewish people alone. It was not necessary.
    However, I agree with you, but I think you need to actually use scripture.

    John 10: 17-18
    “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    NO MAN TAKETH IT FROM ME, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”
    (Yes, I am yelling)
    Proved by Christ’s own words, the doctrine that anything other than his own free will took his life is contrary to the Bible, and thus what Echo has stated is false. Sin did not kill him, nor did the Jews, for they had not the power to do so, as he himself stated. This is again testified to when, at the end of his suffering, he cried to God and said “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23: 46). He choose when he was going to die, and if he had so chosen he could have lived through all of the suffering, but that would have defeated the purpose.

    As to murder, Echo simply doesn’t understand the concept. So, let us again use scripture to teach him.
    Hebrews 6: 4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

    So, if people who were not even involved in the actions of the crucifixion can be said to have performed it, it is perfectly logical to say that those who participated are also guilty of the same crime, whether they had the power to kill him or not. So, since God judges both the action and the thought, the desire to kill is easily considered as the act of murder, especially when John tells us that “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer” (1 John 3: 15).

    So, the Bible clearly shows that Echo is wrong.

  117. 119 shematwater
    September 23, 2011 at 2:25 am

    ECHO

    I know what you said, and it still is a misrepresentation. Because you did not make the clarification the assumption of the reader will be that you are saying that the LDS ignore the cross and replace it with the Garden of Gethsemane. I will not claim you do this purposefully, but you did do it, and thus caused a misrepresentation, which is why I felt the need to insert the clarification.
    Personally, I prefer to think that you are just not that acquainted with the subtleties of language and communication and thus have done this in ignorance.

    Now, I notice that you don’t actually address my question. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. Why did you bring this particular peace of doctrine into the discussion? Is it for the reasons that I guessed, or different reasons? More importantly, how does it enhance the discussion that was in progress?

  118. September 23, 2011 at 2:26 am

    Shem,

    I hope you are here in the future to back me up…… you are so holy that I fear you might be translated! :)

    I did not make a big deal about the Jews and their predicament. I am surprised that was offensive to you. I don’t think Echo is a jew. It is not like i blurted that out on Fox news.

    I take issue with people that “hate” us. there is no doubt that these people are here to destroy our faith. they bad mouth Joseph and they bad mouth our religion, and here Echo is bad-mouthing my Savior. I guess I just don’t have very tender feelings towards them.

    I guess I should desire to “teach” them, but in case you haven’t noticed…..they are NOT teachable.

    I want to state my case as clearly as possible (without sparing feelings) for the benefit of the people who come to this site with sincere questions.

    Echo is wrong and I want to point it out. If he is offended then he needs to go somewhere else and blog.
    I suppose they can block me if they don’t like what I have to say.

    so, I will keep stepping on toes if I feel like it is necessary. I will leave the high road to you. :)

    ~Anne

  119. 121 jbr
    September 23, 2011 at 5:40 am

    Is Jesus your exampler …..
    A: no.

    Jesus as your example to follow produces a failure verdict from God as guilty of not keeping his commandment to the work-righteous………………….

    “Be perfect even as your Heavenly IS perfect” ( —>be <— is in the present tense)

    To not being found guilty of every sin, Jesus is to be your 100 % substitute who offers this by grace through faith apart from works or obedience from the law.

  120. September 23, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    JBR,

    a little late coming to the party, huh? have to try to stick in some little burr, huh?

    Jesus provided the way to perfection. Yes, He is indeed my example in all things. HE was baptized by immersion, I was baptized by immersion. He sent the Holy Ghost to be confirmed upon baptized members of His church, and I was confirmed by the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. He went to John who had the authority to baptize, even the Son of God needed to be baptized to “fulfill all righteousness”, and I went to someone who had that very same authority to be baptized.
    Jesus taught us that baptism washed away our sins. My sins were washed away. Jesus taught us to repent. I repent daily as needed and then take the Sacrament each week to renew my baptismal covenant, thus washing away my sins AGAIN.

    Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not lie. He does not tell us to do something that he knows is impossible. God does not lie by telling us to “be perfect” and then sitting back to watch us fail. that would be a lie. there is NO GUILE in our Savior. HE DOES NOT LIE.

    Jesus is my advocate. Jesus is my Savior, and because HE SUFFERED for me and paid the price for my sins, then I need not suffer IF I REPENT.

    There are conditions for Eternal Life. The ONLY totally free, 100% guaranteed gift is “resurrection”. We will all be resurrected because the Savior “broke the bands of death.” Death has no more hold on us because the Savior overcame death.

    FOR ETERNAL LIFE
    we must:
    have faith
    repent
    be baptized
    receive the Holy Ghost
    endure to the end with righteous works.

    I am sincerely sorry that you guys have the wrong idea about everything…..but the good news is: you can still hear the Gospel in the Spirit world and maybe get in on some salvation…..that is IF you do not reject it here on earth.

    all the above is backed up by scripture. as a matter of fact there are 2 to 1 scriptures in the Bible that favor works and conditions over the “freebie” gospel that you advocate.

    ~anne

  121. 123 Echo
    September 23, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Anne said: “Do you think the Jews had anything to do with the hatred of Jesus? I do. They conspired against him. Saying they murdered him in their hearts is indeed biblical. The Pharisees plotted against him. Those plots, as do all evil plots, began in their hearts. you are handicapped by your religion..you are blind. 100% blind. You can not even think for yourself. too, too sad.”

    Of course it began in their hearts. I am not denying that. What I am denying is that they **ONLY** murdered Jesus in their hearts. The Jews physically and actually murdered Jesus too. After all, you said Jesus wasn’t murdered, but contrary to what you said, he was murdered and scripture testifies against you.

    I am also not denying that Jesus was willing to die for us. He was willing to die for us. I did say that previously. I am however denying that he wasn’t murdered. He indeed was murdered. Again, God’s own testimony in scripture testifies to that fact against you.

    Anne said: “HE WAS NOT Not an ordinary man that could be crucified”

    Angels don’t lie, Jesus was crucified and scripture testifies against you.…

    Mathew 28:5 “The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified”

    And there are many, many more passages I can share with you on this fact. Check out BibleGateway and type in Crucified.

    Anne, Christ Crucified is a stumbling block and foolishness to you…

    1 Corinthians 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles”

    1 Corinthians 2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

    Galatians 3:1 “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.”

    Yes, Jesus was willing to be murdered. Nobody could murder him if he wasn’t willing for that to happen. By his power, he could have prevented it. And that is the point of the passages you and Shem have given. But on the cross and in the crucifixion, Jesus didn’t use his power. He was murdered in weakness…

    2 Corinthians 13:4 “For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness…”

    He was murdered. And THAT too was necessary in order for Jesus to suffer fully the punishment you deserve for your sins. The same punishment we all deserve.

    The Mormon Church has hardened your heart against God’s word.

  122. 124 shematwater
    September 23, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    Oh, I don’t think Echo was offended, and neither was I. However, such comments can be used by those with less than good motives to try and claim you, or even the church, as anti-Semite and hating the Jewish race. I have seen the accusations before, and those are what is offensive. I know they are absurd, I just don’t think it is a good idea to give any excuse to people to make them.

  123. 125 shematwater
    September 23, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    ECHO

    You have proved nothing. To be crucified is to be nailed to a cross. Even if he hadn’t died he was still crucified. Just like a person who is hung, but doesn’t die was still hung; or a person who is shot has still be shot whether they die or not.

    Secondly, I think that Anne would be more correct in saying that Jesus was not killed by the Jews, though they most certainly murdered him. They thought it, they desired it, and they carried their desires into action. They are guilty of murder whether or not those actions were successful, and thus it is perfectly true to call them murderers.

    I have to wander if you read what I posted to Anne. It was addressed to her, but I think you will find some good information there.

    JBR

    Matthew 5: 48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    Now, as much as people like to use this single verb of “Be” to prove their point, they fail to understand the subtleties of language and the means of words. Yes, “be” is a present tense verb, but its meaning can extend into the future.
    Take for example the phrase “May good fortune be with you.” While this is the present tense verb, its meaning does not cover the present time in which it is spoken. It actual covers the entire life of the person, indicating a present tense that is more a part of the grand scheme than actual time. To give this wish is to say “I hope that for the majority of your life you experience good fortune.
    A similar thing can be said when I tell my son I want him to “be” honest. I am not just talking about this moment, or even a future moment. I am telling him that I want him to develop himself to the point that he can be called an honest man.
    So, when we see what Christ said in this way it becomes clear that he was not talking about exact present tense in time, but was speaking more to the grand scheme in which we are to strive for perfection. This mortal life is but a moment in the eternities, and thus to use the term “be” in reference to its entirety is still to use it in the present tense when regarding eternity.
    So, is Christ saying that we have to be perfect now? Or is he saying that in this mortal life we must strive for perfection so that when it is over we are perfect for the grand scheme.

    Believe which ever you like, but both are logical interpretations.

  124. September 23, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    first of all “crucifixion” is a method. It may or may not result in death.

    second of all You are just skirting the issue because you were proven wrong. I don’t blame you, it is humiliating to be so bold and sure of yourself and then have to admit that you were wrong. ( you kind of admitted it by saying that Jesus COULD have used his power, but didn’t)

    You have a false understanding of the very basis of the Gospel. The Good News is this: Christ came to earth and GAVE HIS LIFE for us. No one took His life. No one can murder a God. He was beaten and he lived….he was cruelly nailed to a cross and he lived….he was cruelly suspended from that cross ….and he lived. He was pierced with a sword ….and he lived. THEN, and ONLY when He knew it was time, he gave up his life. I think Luke says it best: Luke 23:46 “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.” PROOF POSITIVE!!

    I used to be a Christian like you…..although I never had the kooky doctrine that you have….and the Mormon Church has OPENED my eyes! Every time I read the scriptures I am amazed at how well everything taught by the Church fits together so perfectly. Christ DID not intend for there to be multiple religions. He warned against it.

    He intended for there to be “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth. His original Church is here again with all its ordinances, Priesthood authority and doctrine.

    You are too blind to see it. That’s ok. Whatever floats your boat. BUT, I want to go on record here on this website with the truth! I have heard from others that sometimes people come to this blog when their faith is wavering. I want to be SURE that anything they read from members of the Church is the truth.

    I am not Ms. Nice Guy and content to let falsehoods stand. Sorry, that just isn’t me.

    The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foundational principle of the Gospel. If the foundation is rotten, the whole building will fall. I KNOW that the Gospel as preached by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

    YOU, Echo, do not have a clue! You are like a little child. You are SO sure that you know more than the adults in the room.

    just keep swimming!

  125. September 24, 2011 at 12:22 am

    Echo,

    you said this:
    Anne, Christ Crucified is a stumbling block and foolishness to you…

    1 Corinthians 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles”

    1 Corinthians 2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

    Just a question for you. do you think that I THINK that Christ was not hung on the cross and crucified?

    His death and resurrection IS NOT a stumbling block for me….not in the least.

    I believe that scripture was aimed at people who wanted to deny Christ’s very existent as the Son of God.

    That is not me.

    Sorry if i have been tough on you. Your theory is just so wrong.

    ~Anne

  126. 128 jbr
    September 24, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    Shem,
    I like your examples…especially the conclusion which says:

    “While this is the present tense verb, its meaning does not cover the present time in which it is spoken. It actual covers the entire life of the person, ”

    This command to “be holy [OT] … be perfect [NT] ” is the standard……….as you say ” the entire life of a person”

    I wish you could realize that this command is in fact the standard by which God holds people to account.
    No where do we read from the Bible that living with Heavenly Father is like a “the price is right” standard…….meaning:

    Your view is:
    Based on our worthiness Shem, Anne, me, Echo, Kent. Mark etc. are contestants and if we want to get on stage each has our own “right price” and God does the rest. (obviously nobody can go over otherwise “the rest”wouldn’t be applicable). The grand prize is of course “Exaltation”

    So you Shem ( after Jesus, Joseph Smith, prophets, LDS hierarchy) learns that you are the highest LDS ever to prove yourself @ 1729, Anne 1567, Echo 431, Kent 395, JBR 187, Mark 186.9 … […sorry Mark :) —-]

    Now Shem (and others) is on stage only to have another progression round ( or 2 -3 depending on the version) with ” the price is right” …… dependent on a person’s proving themself.

    To Mormonism…sin is not a barrier ( the result of lack of total perfection), but a mere lower score for the contestant to make up the “balance” of whatever.

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ the truth is much different… what was revealed in the Bible /////////////////////////////

    “all have sinned” ……… in other words, you the audience, have a zero score
    ” guilty of all sins” ……. by the time you get to stand before Jesus your score is zero

    Two options to remove this guilty verdict:

    you attempt to prove yourself to God via the law \ works and whatever makes your conscience feel better
    ——————–> ultimately resulting in failure ( being sent to outer darkness )
    or

    Jesus proved to God he accomplished “perfection through his entire life” and offers that prove freely
    ——————–> ultimately resulting in God accepting Jesus’ work as yours ( being declared perfect)
    (see the “free gift” verses mentioned earlier)

  127. September 24, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    Going along with what JBR is explaining …

    Let’s say the maximum score is 5000 (perfection)

    Take my score of 431 in light of…

    James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”

    That tells me that my score must be 5000 and if it’s anything less than that, then my score is ZERO. If my score were 4999 and I had one sin left to overcome, I would be guilty of stumbling at “one point” and therefore guilty of breaking “ALL” of God’s law. That makes my score ZERO.

    In reality, I still sin so my score is still ZERO on the judgment seat of God even though I am at 431 in my efforts to reach 5000.

    A score of zero reaps outer darkness.

    The solution?

    Jesus takes my zero by suffering and being murdered on the cross in my place. In exchange for that, Jesus gives me his perfect score of 5000 as a free gift without strings.

    Eternal life….here I come. And all thanks to Jesus alone.

  128. September 25, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    Sorry, but you BOTH have no understanding of the true Gospel Plan of Jesus Christ.

    You have a rotten foundation….perhaps that is not your “fault”. You need to be humble and teachable, because what you have are crumbs. You could have a “banquet” with the true Gospel, but you have the old, leftover crumbs. (now please understand I am speaking with love)

    the Gospel has been restored. Not one of you has EVER nailed a true principle when you try to tell us what we believe. It is because you do not have the whole picture.

    The Gospel is a way of life. The Lord is the way, the truth and the light. You want to deny that he is our example! The definition of a disciple is “one who follows another’s teachings”. (and by the way disciple and discipline share the same root word.) It is a WAY of LIFE! Of course the Savior is our example. He taught us how to be baptized, he taught us how to live, he taught us how to pray. Can you see how foolish you sound when you try to say “he is NOT our example”?

    I never heard from Mark on whether he believe the false doctrine that Jesus was murdered, but no matter. This blog, from top to bottom is heresy. (excluding those who try to convince you of the true gospel) I am thinking he added that new post about being civil to stop the exchange about that ridiculous claim that Jesus was killed by peons.

    You do not have a clue about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You do not understand His original Church or teachings.
    You offer “toad” when we have “prime rib”. (I threw in that little analogy for JBR)

    thanks for single-handedly proving that “straight is the gate and narrow the way and FEW there be that find it”.

    ~annd

  129. September 25, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    Anne said: “Of course the Savior is our example”

    John 5:24 and 39-40 ” I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life….You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

  130. September 26, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    well, you must be on vacation.

    I suspect that you are trying to make that scripture say that I will not have eternal life because I follow Jesus??

    That scripture actually applies more to you! IF you do not follow Jesus’ example, but try to find scriptures to match up with your rhetoric, you will NOT have eternal life. Because you have missed the point!

    the point being: Following Jesus IS putting the scriptures into action. It is not enough to “know” Jesus is the Christ, even the devils “know”. you have to prove it! Live like him, love like him, serve like him. FOLLOW HIM!!

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches just that!

    We put our money, time, energy and talents where our mouth is! It is not enough to simply believe. WE must DO SOMETHING about it!

    ~anne

  131. September 26, 2011 at 5:13 pm

    When a person believes that Jesus is an example, (views vary here and there but are basically the same) they basically believe that IF they follow that example, they will gain eternal life. So they think that if they diligently study the scriptures, ( follow that example,) they will then possess eternal life. Views vary here and there from what I am about to say also but basically, a person who believes this believes that man is good or is at least capable of doing good.

    Jesus himself said: “no one is good but God alone” Mark 10:18

    Romans 3:12 “there is no one who does good, not even one”

    People who believe that man is good or is at least capable of doing good, do not see themselves like God sees them. They are currently blind.. Blinded by the devil, and the devil’s main goal is to blind and then destroy us all through that. Very obviously from scriptures, man is neither good nor capable of doing good. If we desire to avoid being deceived by the devil, we must believe God’s word, just exactly as it is written, even when it makes no sense to us. God will eventually fill in all the blanks and clear up all our confusion. In the mean time, we should believe it even when it makes no sense, even if it contradicts our feelings.

    A person who has not yet come to see themselves like God sees them (no one is good, no one does good) will look into scriptures with the devil’s eye glasses. They are wearing the devil’s glasses even though they may not know that. I say that not to harm anyone but to rescue them because when scripture states that no one is good and no one does good and we believe the opposite, then we are believing a lie and Satan is the Father of lie’s. We must take off the devil’s glasses in order to read the scriptures. We must put on God’s glasses even if we don’t yet understand the full implications of this just yet or even if it makes no sense to us right now. Even if it contradicts our feelings. No one is good, no one does good. No one can do good as a result. Those are the glasses we need to wear while reading scripture. While it is true that someone who is not good can obey principles or commandments found in scripture, God himself still considers that “not good” and for reasons that a person can learn when they study the scriptures.

    But wearing the devil’s glasses seems right to us because we ourselves are not good. That doesn’t mean we put on his glasses intentionally or on purpose but it does mean that his glasses will seem right to us because of our own blindness and it leads us to view the scriptures as an example for us to follow.

    Ignore your feelings…

    Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

    God will clear them all up later.

    If a person puts on the glasses God gives which is: “No one is good, no one does good.” and then reads scripture, the scripture transforms into an entirely different book all about what Jesus has done for man to give him eternal life as a free gift with no strings attached. It has to be no strings attached because we are all incapable of doing good. So Rather than being a book about what man must do in order to gain eternal life the book becomes all about Jesus and what Jesus alone has done.

    Everyone who reads the Bible says they believe in Jesus. Both from the “No one is good, no one does good” crowd as well as the “I am good or at least capable of doing good” crowd.
    Obviously someone from one of those groups doesn’t “believe in Jesus” in the same way that scripture describes or explains or defines as to what it really means to: believe in Jesus.

    I believe that the “I am good or at least capable of doing good” crowd are the people who don’t have the scriptural belief in Jesus. I would go so far as to say that the “I am good or at least capable of doing good” crowd do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible even though they genuinely think they do.

    What does it mean to believe in Jesus? It means trusting in his work alone wherein he gave us the free gift of eternal life, no strings attached.

    What does it mean to not believe in Jesus? It means to trust that we must do something to gain eternal life.

    The reality is this….

    The “No one is good, no one does good.” Crowd believes in Jesus. They come to him to have life.

    The “I am good or at least capable of doing good” crowd doesn’t come to Jesus for life, they look to themselves and what they must do for life.

    So those who believe that Jesus is our example to follow in order to gain eternal life are those who refuse to come to Jesus to have life…

    John 5:24 and 39-40 ” I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life….You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

    The “I am good or at least capable of doing good” crowd do not believe the words in the above scripture. If Eternal life is dependant on our first following an example. Then: “He HAS crossed over from death to life” would have to be modified to say something along these lines…” He will cross over from death to life” or “he may cross over from death to life” Such subtle changes entirely transform God’s truth into the devil’s lie’s.

  132. September 26, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    really?

    wow, that is just bizarre. that is NOT the way I was taught as a child. that is NOT the way the Nazarene kids were taught in my neighborhood. that is NOT the way my catholic friends were taught.

    what about ALL the scriptures that teach us to DO something? Why do those scriptures take a back seat to the ones you have selected and interpreted?

    why can’t that last sentence mean :yet you refuse to LIVE MY WAY AND HAVE LIFE? that is an optional interpretation. It is not unreasonable.

    I think that the DEVIL is influencing the “i am not good” crowd to believe that this life is NOT a time to serve God and do good. What is going to happen to you and that crowd (i assume you belong to it) when YOU cross the veil and find out :oops! I should have given all those scriptures that teach us to DO SOMETHING equal weight???

    your last post was definitely another piece to the puzzle. You not only have a crumbling foundation (your Atonement beliefs) but you have crumbling, unstable walls holding up the roof! can’t wait to hear more!

    wow and double wow!

    thanks for taking the time to answer, though

    ~anne

  133. September 26, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    Anne said: “what about ALL the scriptures that teach us to DO something? Why do those scriptures take a back seat to the ones you have selected and interpreted?”

    We can’t bake a cake until we first mix together the ingredients for the cake. If I were to attempt to bake a cake before assembling the ingredients, well that just wouldn’t work. There would be no cake. So the best way to understand what I am saying is to not jump ahead of me. Suffice it to say for now that I believe EVERY word in scripture. Okay?

    So let’s get back to the “No one is good, no one does good.”

    Scripture says: “no one is good but God alone” Mark 10:18

    Scripture says: “Romans 3:12 “there is no one who does good, not even one”

    Are you with me so far? Do you believe those words in scripture?

  134. 138 shematwater
    September 26, 2011 at 8:27 pm

    JBR

    You are so off on your understanding that it becomes difficult to even follow your logic.

    I will give you the LDS perspective in a much simpler story, and will use the same one to illustrate what I understand of everything I have heard from other Christians.

    God leads two men to a large boulder, weighing several tons, and command him “Push this boulder.” God then leaves them to the task.
    The first man looks at the task at hand and says “God knows I could never move this. He must want me to give up and rely on his power to move it for me.” So he sits down and waits.
    The second man looks at the task at hand and realizes he can never move the boulder even a tenth of a millimeter. But he knows God, and he knows that God would not have given the command if there was not a way to do it, and so he pushes. He strains all his muscles, exerting all his strength. He strives for hours, never ceasing, taking only a few seconds every now and then to catch his breath.

    God returns a few hours later. He finds the first man sitting waiting and asks him why he is not pushing. The man explains “I knew I couldn’t do it, so I figured you wanted to teach me reliance on you. So I waited for you to do it for me.” God replies to him, “But I still commanded. You should have had faith that I would make it possible for you to do it, and not have waited for me to do it for you.”
    God then turns to the other man who is still struggling with the boulder, pushing with all his strength. When this man saw God he fell on his knees saying “I am sorry, Father. I have struggled for these many hours to fulfill your commands, but I have been unable to move the boulder. I ask thy forgiveness.” To this man God spoke “Do not see thy work as a failure. I knew you could not move the boulder on your own, but I did not command you to move it, only to push, and this you have done unceasingly from the time I gave the command. Come my son, and I will take this boulder and make of it a mansion for you to dwell in.”

    This is the LDS perspective.

    ECHO

    Mark 10: 18 “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”

    If we are to take the literal meaning of scripture, as you advocate, we must accept that Christ himself was not good, and thus could do no good, for this is what Christ is saying. He is including himself with those who are not good, and declaring that only the Father is. As such you really have a problem when dealing with the Atonement.
    On the other hand, if you take the LDS perspective, which points to God as the source of all good, rather than the only actual good, there is no longer a problem. With this understanding Christ can say that he is not good, for he is not the source, His Father is. And thus we can say we are good, for we come from God (who is the source of good) and we are capable of doing good, for he has given us that power. God is this the only one that is good, in the sense that all good comes from him, but we are capable of being and doing good ourselves.

    Romans 3: 12″They are all gone out of the away, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
    This verse is discussing the state of the world. In the previous verses Paul clarifies that it doesn’t matter if one be a Jew or a gentile, for the nations of the world are all corrupt. He is speaking of those who are not in the church, or the corrupt nations of the earth that teach false doctrine and cause men to sin through them.
    You may also notice that this verse does not say that “no one can do good”, but that no one doeth good, or (in more modern terms) no one chooses to do good, but that all those who are not in the church prefer to do evil and choose it above good.

    Speaking of how God sees us, I would have t disagree with you. You base your degradation of the human race on two verses, which I have shown do not carry the literal meaning you give them. But there are many more that speak of us as children of God and heirs to his kingdom. This is how God views us, as his children whom he loves and seeks to teach and raise in righteousness. This is a very glorifying thought, and one that uplifts the spirit more than anything you have espoused in your doctrine.
    Simply put, what gives more comfort and assurance: A loving Father who watches over us and guides us, and instructs us in the proper ways that we may become all that he is; or a God who sees us only as degraded things that he created for the sole purpose of bringing greater glory to himself.

    Lastly, I would like to point out that nothing in the scriptures should be confusing or not make sense. God has told us to ask and we will receive, seek and we shall find, knock and it shall be opened. As such, if something doesn’t make sense we should seek out understanding and go to God and ask him to illuminate our minds. Those who simply accept that something don’t make sense, but God will explain it later, are not following his counsel to ask.

  135. September 26, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    Shem, I would like my questions to be answered by Anne alone. I hope you don’t mind. I would like her speak for herself. I think Anne knows her LDS doctrine pretty well but she is certainly free to ask you for some help if she feels she needs it. Please then feel free to help her. Thanking you in advance.

  136. 140 shematwater
    September 26, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    ECHO

    Why?

  137. September 26, 2011 at 9:49 pm

    Why? Well I wanted to get Anne’s own personal thoughts on some things. I am not really looking for a description of LDS beliefs at this time nor a refutation of what is being said. Do you know what I mean? I do appreciate all your knowledge of LDS doctrine and I do want to learn more from you about that but right now I am wanting to know what Anne thinks personally, not necessarily what the LDS church teaches. Does that explain?

  138. September 26, 2011 at 9:58 pm

    actually Shem’s take on the questions you asked are mine exactly.

    I do not look at my Heavenly Father (or my Savior, who by the way are two separate and distinct individuals) as one who would give commandments that i could not possibly keep. Or as one who would tell me to do something that is in vain. That is a form of a lie. He loves me and has provided a way for me to return and live with him again. I don’t think he would want a bunch of losers who never refined themselves but rather sons and daughters who have followed his commandments, his example and his “way”. We have been told to walk the narrow way! To follow him.

    When Jesus chastised the Pharisees it was because they believed in the “letter” of the law, but did not apply the “spirit of the law” in their life. For example, they wanted to rail against him for “breaking the Sabbath” by healing a man. But they failed to see that the WHOLE PURPOSE of the gospel is to do good and bless people!

    The scriptures you chose simply do not back up your premise…..if anything, they back up mine!

    but….go ahead with the rest of your point.

    i am listening

    ~anne

  139. September 26, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    Anne, in your personal opinion, does scripture teach that no one is good but God alone? What I mean is, if you weren’t LDS and this verse below was the only verse you ever heard from the Bible, does this scripture, in your opinion, teach that no one is good but God alone?

    “no one is good but God alone” Mark 10:18

  140. September 26, 2011 at 11:19 pm

    I don’t think so…. this was Jesus speaking. He was saying that EVEN he is not as good as his Father. But, I know that HE was perfect…..so I think he was saying that no one is perfect but God alone. (Jesus was humble) He then proceeds to tell the young man what he can DO that will give him eternal life.

    So, I in NO WAY think he was saying that man should not or COULD not do good.

    (Just as a matter of trivia….the 1611 translation of the KJV says: “There is no MAN good, but one, that is God.” giving added support to our tenet that God is an exalted man, not a puffy cloud. )

    time after time we are told to do righteous works, to love one another , to serve. I am amazed that you can take one little scripture, tweak it and build your faith around it!

    How about Luke 10:27. Are those commandments good works? I would say so.

    next……

  141. September 26, 2011 at 11:34 pm

    Anne said: “I don’t think so…. this was Jesus speaking. He was saying that EVEN he is not as good as his Father.”

    First off, I would just like to say that this has nothing to do with my question. I didn’t ask if Jesus believed he was good or not good or what that portion of scripture even means. That’s a topic for another time.I asked specifically this…

    does this scripture, in your opinion, teach that no one is good but God alone?

    “no one is good but God alone” Mark 10:18

    And a simple yes or no answer would be fine. Remember I am asking the question based on this being the ONLY scripture you have ever heard if you weren’t LDS and had never read the Bible.

    Anne said: “time after time we are told to do righteous works, to love one another , to serve. I am amazed that you can take one little scripture, tweak it and build your faith around it!”

    I have said that I believe everything the Bible teaches. I believe in doing righteous works. Okay? So lets please just stick to the question at hand without adding all this other stuff. We will get to everything eventually. We must put the ingredients together before we bake the cake.

  142. 146 rechtglaubig
    September 27, 2011 at 1:32 am

    “(Just as a matter of trivia….the 1611 translation of the KJV says: “There is no MAN good, but one, that is God.” giving added support to our tenet that God is an exalted man, not a puffy cloud.)”

    Hello Annemckee, I am afraid that the Greek does not support your theological conclusions drawn from Mark 10:18. οὐδείς (“no one”) is formed from the root words οὐδέ (but not, neither, nor, not even) and εἷς (the number one). While it wouldn’t be necessarily incorrect to say “no man”, it is quite a stretch to use οὐδείς to support the LDS doctrine on God the Father as an exalted man.

  143. September 27, 2011 at 2:53 am

    The actual 1611 translation of the KJV says those words. don’t know why…but it does.

  144. 148 rechtglaubig
    September 27, 2011 at 2:58 am

    Yes, I understand. I looked it up. The Textus Receptus, the Greek manuscripts used for the 1611 translation does not support your conclusion about the passage.

  145. 149 rechtglaubig
    September 27, 2011 at 5:45 am

    Just to clarify because I didn’t have much time to write my above post. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that “no man” is a poor translation of οὐδείς (“no one”). However, if you want to make a case for an arguement over the English word “man” in Mark 10:18 (1611 KJV), then the Greek word ἄνθρωπος (“man”) would have to be in the passage.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=10&v=1&t=KJV#conc/18

  146. September 27, 2011 at 5:59 am

    After re-reading my post, it doesn’t come across to me a friendly as I intended it to. Please note that I did write it intending it to be friendly.

  147. September 27, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    My belief that Jesus Christ and His Father are exalted men does not depend on the 1611 KJV translation.

    I have just always thought that it was interesting.

    thanks for your research.

    ~anne

  148. September 27, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    just a note…. the same Greek word that underlies the 1611 translation is also used in revelation 7:9 and 14:3 and is translated as “no man”. (credit M. B. Brown)

  149. September 27, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Ok Echo,

    I am willing to play the game. Yes, if I read that one passage, without context, without any knowledge of the Bible I would have to take it at face value.

  150. September 27, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    BUT, if the NEXT passage I read was: “well done, thou GOOD and faithful servant….” I would be confused, and possibly discount the Bible as being true.

  151. September 27, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Anne said: “BUT, if the NEXT passage I read was: “well done, thou GOOD and faithful servant….” I would be confused, and possibly discount the Bible as being true.”

    Let’s say you are teaching me a whole lot of LDS theology and I am confused by what you teach. Should I discount your words to me as being true?

  152. 156 jbr
    September 27, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    Shem…
    You can’t follow the logic …. or you wantonly refuse to see where the LDS perspective ultimately leaves the person …………………….. there is no end to pushing the rock…..

    The LDS perspective camouflages the fact that
    1) rock pushing the point… that’s the “mansion”

    2) if you want to stop pushing that rock, it depends on you whether it’s decades or centuries

    3) God doesn’t just say come into the mansion…. he has a progression plan
    (what the point of pushing for centuries when he offers the same mansion to the guy who “strives for hours”)

    The LDS perspective doesn’t want people to look down stream …………..
    that it could be centuries (not just hours) before that happy day that God comes along and say that

    … you just happen to forget to mention after this life on earth:

    … that Joseph Smith’s version of his mansion is to approve of your rock pushing before you get your mansion.

    …… that there is no such thing as being an unmarried rock pusher

    …….. that for women, they are pushing the rock while pregnant ( having children)

    ………… that for women don’t rule out polygamy

    …………….. that “exaltation” hasn’t been achieved by anybody human yet

    …………………. that to progress afterwards there is more rock pushing

  153. 157 rechtglaubig
    September 27, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    “just a note…. the same Greek word that underlies the 1611 translation is also used in revelation 7:9 and 14:3 and is translated as “no man”. (credit M. B. Brown)”

    Yes, it is translated “no man” in quite a few passages. Again, it isn’t wrong. Someone could say that “no one” is the same as saying “no man, woman, or child”, but the Greek is still simply – “no one”.

  154. 158 shematwater
    September 27, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    ECHO

    Since Anne has stated that our opinions are essentially the same is there any real harm in my answering later questions?
    Actually, I have stated disagreements between our thoughts, but they amount to very little.

    With your permission, may I answer the question regarding the reading of the single verse?

    JBR

    I can’t follow your logic, but I was speaking in regards to LDS doctrine. On other things I can, I just disagree with it.
    Speaking of LDS doctrine, your inevitable conclusion is not where the doctrine leads, if you understand it correctly, which is why I said I can’t follow you. You are leading down a path that is illogical and I simply don’t know where you are getting your information from.

    You said “what the point of pushing for centuries when he offers the same mansion to the guy who “strives for hours?”
    This is a good question. Let me ask you another. What is the point of studying hard and getting your degree when the person who spends his time playing can still get the same degree later?
    The answer is obvious. While it may be the same degree (or mansion) each person is different and will gain different rewards or consequences for their actions. Since we are speaking of LDS doctrine, consider the passage “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
    And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130: 19-19)
    We may receive the same mansion, but the one who spent the more time pushing will have the advantage of gained experience. We do not determine the reward we or anyone else receives from God, but through our choices we determine how prepared we are to use that gift.

    So, right from the start you have ignore significant doctrine in order to reach your conclusion. Other things you state are also drawn from false understanding and thus lead to wrong conclusions.
    For example, you said “that “exaltation” hasn’t been achieved by anybody human yet.” This ignores the fact that God is an exalted man, and that Christ is also an exalted man, as has been frequently taught. It also ignores the scriptures, for we are told that “Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.” (D&C 132: 29). Later, speaking of Isaac and Jacob, God tells us that “they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.” (D&C 132: 37). So, we have the testimony of God himself that at least three mortal men have already received their exaltation, thus proving your statement false.

    You see why I said I couldn’t follow your logic. You list all these conclusions that you reached following your logic, and yet they are disproved by LDS doctrine. How can what you say “where the LDS perspective ultimately leaves the person” be the logical conclusion, when it is directly contradicted by the doctrine? As such, your logic escapes me.

    We are to do the will of the Father while in this life, and then we will receive the reward and we will rest from our labors. Yes, we will still have a work to do, but it is not the same kind of work, and we will be transformed into exalted beings who are capable of performing the work required. Using my analogy, we are no longer pushing the boulder, but are now engaged in the work of running the household that comes with a mansion.

  155. September 27, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Echo,
    I don’t really see the connection between the two. ….sorry….

    IF the ONLY 2 things I read in the Bible contradict each other, I believe it would cause confusion.

    I tend to think that you need to take the whole and “reason” it out, as Shem has suggested before.

    I would come to the conclusion that the first passage MUST have meant something else, in order for the second passage to make sense.

    I also don’t think someone can take ONE passage and build a doctrine around it.

    To say that humans are incapable of doing good is non-biblical and nonsensical.

    Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ want us to be great. They want us to learn, grow, progress and become like them. They have given us a pattern (Christ’s life) to follow. This not only helps us to be better, it helps us achieve happiness…..which is also one of their stated goals.

    We need to understand the “why” of the Gospel (like the Savior’s disciples) instead of the “how” of the Gospel (like the Pharisees) .

    The “why” of the Gospel is this: Christ was sent to teach us, to love us, to help us and to redeem us SO THAT WE COULD HAVE JOY! He broke the bands of death and he did this for All MANKIND, forward and backwards, for all time and eternity! His message is for everyone! When we pattern our lives after his, when we stick to the narrow way, when we understand that He is the way, the truth and the light, and we OBEY HIM and endure to the end…..then we have salvation and exaltation.

    Sorry, no freebies…..no “substitute”……no free rides, free lunches or free passes. WE need to work out our own Salvation in fear and trembling.

    ~Anne

  156. September 28, 2011 at 2:08 am

    Shem said: “With your permission, may I answer the question regarding the reading of the single verse?”

    If you want to Shem. You don’t need my permission. I am just wanting to hear Anne’s personal thoughts, not necessarily doctrine was my point. :)

  157. September 28, 2011 at 2:12 am

    Anne said: “I would come to the conclusion that the first passage MUST have meant something else, in order for the second passage to make sense.”

    What if the first passage didn’t mean something else at all? What if it meant exactly what it said? Here is what I mean…

    What if the passage I gave: “No one is good but God alone” means exactly what it says. And at the same time, the passage you gave means exactly what it says also?

  158. 162 shematwater
    September 28, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    ECHO

    Since I have your permission, I will go ahead.

    In order to actually answer the question I will do so in two parts. You asked “if you weren’t LDS and this verse below was the only verse you ever heard from the Bible, does this scripture, in your opinion, teach that no one is good but God alone?” However, you only quote one single part of the verse. As such, I will answer first as if only that one part was read, and then as if the entire verse was read.

    Now, if only the one phrase was read, and nothing else, in all honesty I would dismiss it as the opinion of a cynic, and thus not accurately portraying the world. If I was not LDS, and had never read the Bible, I would most likely not be Christian either. As such I would be looking for the truth, and this single phrase by itself does not ring with truth, and so I would dismiss it. As there is no indication of who said it or under what circumstances I would have no reason to accept it for anything other than the ramblings of a discontented person.

    But then, if I had read the entire verse, where it says that Jesus said this, including himself in those who are not good, I would be intrigued, though I would still say it sounded a little too cynical for me. However, I would want to learn more about this Jesus to understand why he would have said this and what he truly meant by it.

    Of course, I would never stop at reading just one phrase or verse from a book, especially one that claims to be the word of God. As such, I think I would be more inclined to dismiss the person using this verse to persuade me and instead read the rest of the Bible to figure out what it is talking about.
    My parents always taught me to read at least 50 pages of a book before dismissing it, as the first few pages may confuse or bore you, but you may miss out on what is after. I would apply this same thing to the Bible. This one verse confuses me, as I see good in people everyday. So, I would read at least fifty pages of the Bible to try and figure it out, and if I was still confused I would probably drop it as a book that couldn’t be understood and thus is not worth reading.

    I am happy to say that I have never found the Bible confusing, and truly find it rather clear in its message, so all this doesn’t really mean much. However, if I had not been raised on the Bible I do not know if that would be the case.

  159. September 28, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    Shem said: “As such I would be looking for the truth, and this single phrase by itself does not ring with truth, and so I would dismiss it.”

    Who’s truth does it not ring with, your personal idea of what is true? (Keeping in mind that what might seem true to you may not actually be true-especially in face of an all-knowing God who may yet need to teach you the REAL truth)

  160. 164 Kent
    September 28, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    This is what saves us and saved does not just mean living in the afterlife with a chance to progress to maybe be with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father at some time in the future but it means being with them forever.

    Notice it doesn’t say anything about what we do.

    Paul is declaring the gospel that he also received. It couldn’t be stated any clearer what the gospel is. Mormons, you can know for sure, without any doubts if you ever will make it,, that you can be with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father forever. Just have faith and trust in what Jesus did 2000 years ago by dying on the cross, in your place, sinners who can never save yourselves. You can know now, today, just have faith!

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE TO YOU THE GOSPEL which i preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which i also received: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY according to the scriptures

    OR

    You can obey all the commandments and hope that somehow, someday, you will do a good enough job. You might as well throw in, in addition to the requirements put on you by your church, the over 600 old testament laws.

    Once we truly let go and have complete faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross by dying for us and rising again on the third day, we do the good works and they become a joy rather than a burden and we don’t have to ever worry if we are worthy enough because He is worthy enough for us and we put on His righteousness and not our own.

    Regarding the Mormon bishops who tell people to be worthy, surprise, they are not worthy either as no one is worthy.

    Romans 3:10

    10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one

  161. September 28, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    Shem, try to keep your answers short if you can. One sentence if possible, one word better. Try to stick to the scripture at hand without going ahead of me to the rest of what scripture says i.e. “However, you only quote one single part of the verse” and try to avoid getting ahead of me like this: ” Of course, I would never stop at reading just one phrase or verse from a book”

    Let’s discuss ONLY the scripture portions I give you at the time.

  162. 166 shematwater
    September 28, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    ECHO

    Truth is truth. It is unchanging and unchangeable. It is not my truth that I am looking for, but the truth, that ultimate truth that is behind all things.
    The phrase you give, by itself, lacks any substance to it and thus cannot be the underlying truth. This is what I am talking about.

    Now, pardon my long answers, but I believe in being thorough. You said one verse, but then only quoted one part, and so I answered what you said and what you quoted, just to make sure I got it all in there. I also wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying, as a single sentence, and especially a single word, con so often be misunderstood.

    If you want a one word answer it would be “No.” If you want a one sentence answer, it would be “this phrase by itself lacks contexts and can not teach anything of substance by itself.”

  163. 167 shematwater
    September 28, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    KENT

    Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15: 3 Paul says that this was the first thing that he taught them.

    “For I delivered to you first of all that which i also received”

    I agree that the first thing to teach a person is the atonement of Christ, for the first principal of the Gospel is Faith in Jesus Christ. However, this is the first thing to teach, it is not the only thing, nor does Paul say it is the only thing. It is simply the first. As such, this scriptures really does nothing to support what you are claiming.

  164. September 28, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    Shem, my problem is that when you write long explanatory posts I lose track of the original question because you have my mind going all over the place. I am trying to keep this “simple” and “focused”. If I need explanations for your short answers, I will ask for them. Let’s try that and see if it works, okay?

    Shem said: “If you want a one word answer it would be “No.” If you want a one sentence answer, it would be “this phrase by itself lacks contexts and can not teach anything of substance by itself.”

    Now I am not sure what question you are saying no to. Let’s begin again if I may, keeping it simple. Remember, you are not Mormon and have not read the Bible before. Just answer the question in one word or one sentence if you have to. No explanations unless I ask, no getting ahead of me.

    Here are two scriptures:

    Mark 10:18 “no one is good but God alone”

    Romans 3:12 “there is no one who does good, not even one”

    Shem, in your opinion, do these scriptures teach that no one is good?

  165. 169 shematwater
    September 28, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    ECHO

    Your original question only listed Mark 10: 18. It did not include Romans.

    However, to give the answer again, No.

  166. September 28, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    Shem,

    Did Jesus say: “no one is good”? Yes or no only please.

  167. 171 shematwater
    September 28, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    ECHO

    You are once again changing the question. You didn’t ask if Jesus said this, but if the scriptures you site teach this. They are very different questions.
    This is why I find it difficult to give the simple, one word or one sentence answers. You keep changing the question to try and ring a particular answer out of me. If you don’t like my answer you alter the question in the attempt to make any answer you don’t like impossible.

    Here are my answers, in one word, and one sentence.

    “Do these scriptures teach that no one is good?” No.
    Is the phrase “No one is good” a direct quote from Jesus? Yes.

    But then, just because it is a direct quote does not mean he taught what you are claiming.

  168. September 28, 2011 at 11:41 pm

    Shem,

    If you had never read the bible before and weren’t a Mormon, would you think that Jesus is teaching here that no one is good but God alone? ( I know it’s very difficult to let go of your knowledge of the Bible and all that you have been taught in Mormonism, but try. I do realize it is very difficult, but just try)

  169. September 29, 2011 at 12:06 am

    “You are once again changing the question. You didn’t ask if Jesus said this, but if the scriptures you site teach this. They are very different questions.”

    Can’t I ask questions that are different questions?

  170. September 29, 2011 at 12:34 am

    Shem said: “You keep changing the question to try and ring a particular answer out of me.”

    This isn’t about whether or not I like your answers. Your answers are your answers. I am trying to figure out how you think and where you think differently than I do. I know you think differently than I do so I am looking for the deep root of that difference.

  171. 175 Kent
    September 29, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    Shem said, “I agree that the first thing to teach a person is the atonement of Christ, for the first principal of the Gospel is Faith in Jesus Christ. However, this is the first thing to teach, it is not the only thing, nor does Paul say it is the only thing. It is simply the first. As such, this scriptures really does nothing to support what you are claiming.”

    The gospel, the atonement because of what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, is much more than just the first thing to teach it is the very foundation of everything as just like we can’t build a building without a strong foundation which if that foundation isn’t there there is no building as it would all come tumbling down, the same is true about our salvation. Remember, Jesus is the cornerstone and He is the rock of our savlation

    We are not saved by the stuff that is added onto the foundation but by the foundation itself. Remember also that the Bible teaches that being saved means having eternal life and not just a chance to, maybe at some point in the future, to progress get to be with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father but we can know now and be assured we will be with them for eternity just have faith and trust in what Jesus did on the cross to save us it will set you free!

    Notice again that Paul in 1 Corninthians 15 is telling us what the gospel is and that it says nothing about what we do only about what Jesus did 2000 years ago.

  172. 176 shematwater
    September 29, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    ECHO

    I don’t mind you asking different questions. What I was commenting on was the asking of a different question and passing it off as the same question. You asked one thing, and when I answered you changed the question without explanation as to why. This gives the impression that you are trying to lead me into a particular answer, and that is what I was talking about.

    As to your question, I gave my answer, based on the premise that you explained (having never read the Bible) and you seem to reject it.
    I will say again, based on this single phrase I would not assume that he was teaching what you are claiming. I do not think that the phrase by itself is sufficient to make such an assumption, as it lacks context and substance. If this was the only thing I had read I would make no opinion regarding its meaning, as such is not truly possible.
    Even adding in the Romans quote I would say the same thing, as it also lacks context and substance.

    KENT

    Don’t try and pass off my comments as something less than yours. The atonement itself is the foundation of the gospel, but I was not talking about the atonement itself, but about the methods of teaching the gospel. To teach the gospel effectively one must first teach the atonement.
    As to it being the foundation of the Gospel, I have never denied this, and neither has the LDS church. Christ is the Chief Corner Stone and it is on him that we build our faith. However, there is the house to consider. The foundation is what supports (and thus saves) the house, but it is not the house, and so we must consider what the house is.
    Christ said “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM them, I will liken unto a wise man, WHICH BUILT his house upon a rock:
    And the rains descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.”
    Notice that by doing the sayings of Christ (not just believing) a man builds his house upon the foundation of Christ, and it is a secure house. However, we must build our own house through obedience. After all, what good is a foundation if we do not put a house on it?

    As to 1 Corinthians 15, this chapter is not about the gospel (as in a general overview, or an all encompassing doctrine) but about the resurrection, which Paul proves by reminding the Corinthians of the very first thing they had been taught, and how that very first principle proves the truth of the resurrection.

  173. September 29, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Shem, what would make a person: “Not good”?

  174. 178 shematwater
    September 29, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    ECHO

    Them choosing to not be good.

  175. September 29, 2011 at 10:08 pm

    Genesis 8:21 “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.”

    Shem, can humans, whose EVERY INCLINATION of their hearts from childhood is evil, choose good?

  176. September 30, 2011 at 4:21 am

    i have been taking care of a sick family member….but it looks like the debate went on without me.

    I won’t be back again for several days! if any of our non mormon friends would like to hear what we believe…tune in to our General Conference this weekend. I will be there with bells on!

    ~Anne

  177. 181 rechtglaubig
    September 30, 2011 at 5:17 am

    Annemckee,

    I am sorry that your family member is ill. I will be praying for the both of you.

  178. September 30, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    Anne, thank you for letting us know about the General Conference. I will tune in. :)

    I am praying for you and your sick family member.

  179. 183 shematwater
    September 30, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    ECHO

    Genesis 8: 21 “And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.”

    According to this verse God has lifted the curse on the land, which was placed for our benefit, because of our tendency to do evil. He doesn’t say that he does this in spite of our inclination, but because of it.

    However, to answer your question, yes. It is our inclination (as you put it) or our nature to do evil, but that nature can be controlled.
    Simply put, if we can choose to do evil we can also choose to do good. The one choice must have its opposite our there is no choice. To say we cannot choose to be good is also to say we cannot choose to be evil; and if our evil is not of our choice it is not of us, and thus we cannot be held accountable for it.

  180. October 2, 2011 at 11:35 pm

    Genesis 6:5 “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

  181. October 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    wow, what an uplifting message for the day, Echo!

    I prefer the messages from our General Conference that were full of hope and inspiration. Did anyone tune in? What did you think?

    have a good one!

    ~anne

  182. 186 shematwater
    October 3, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    ECHO

    It is very true that at the time just preceding the flood men had degenerated into a race that was primarily evil in both thought and deed. But what is your point. It is obvious that not all men were like this, for Noah was called to preserve the human race, and is later described as being perfect. His sons and their wives were also obviously not of the evil habits, for they were also chosen to preserve the race.

    To use a description of people who lived in one place or time as a general description of all men is not reasonable, and is truly against the doctrine taught in the Bible.

  183. October 4, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    Ecclesiastes 9:3: “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”

  184. October 4, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Cheerful, happy Echo! Are you still trying to make the point that we are all evil? why not find something good and happy in the Bible? Why live your life like this?

    IF you follow the Lord Jesus Christ, your life will be happy! Try it!

    ~anne

  185. 189 shematwater
    October 4, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    ECHO

    Ecclesiastes is a great comment on the conditions of mortality. This particular verse illustrates beautifully how all men are subject to temptations, and how none are exempt from them. Even Christ was tempted in all things. I do not deny that the nature of mortality is to be filled with the lusts of the flesh and the instinct of the body. However, as I have said, the spirit is stronger and can control these lusts and instincts. While all men will experience them, the good man will strive to control them, while the wicked will let them run free.

  186. October 4, 2011 at 6:20 pm

    Can a man without the Spirit please God?

  187. October 4, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Anne, why don’t you find out if I follow the Lord Jesus Christ before telling me to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and assuming I don’t?

  188. October 5, 2011 at 12:39 am

    did I get you mixed up with someone??? who was telling me that the Savior is NOT our example?

    sorry…I was not intending to offend! just pointing out that HE IS our EXAMPLE and following Him makes me happy…not sad, depressed, or cheerless like you sounded with that post.

    ~anne

    PS did anyone watch our General Conference?? I would be interested to know what you thought.

  189. 193 shematwater
    October 5, 2011 at 7:43 pm

    ECHO

    You are once again altering the question with no indication as to the reason. Can you argue my reasoning, or is your inability too do so what prompts these sudden shifts in topic.

    I believe the actual quote is that “without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11: 6)” This makes no statement as to the spirit, as so I will say that it is possible to please God without the spirit. It is not possible to be saved without the spirit, but it is possible to please God.

    Speaking of this verse I would also say that what this verse is actually talking about is hypocrisy. If one comes to God, or claims to be his disciple, and yet has no real faith they are a hypocrite, and this is displeasing to God. However, one who is diligently seeking God, having faith equal to his understanding, will please God.
    So, the heathen who knows not God, but exercises faith sufficient to show mercy on his fellow men, has pleased God, for he has shown faith equal to his understanding. A faithful Muslim who prostrates himself in prayer has also pleased God, for he acts according to his understanding. On the other hand, a Christian who denies the power of God to perform miracles, or the calling of his prophets, does not please God, for the bible gives enough understanding for such to exercise sufficient faith.

    But, even with all of this, because the Heathen and the Muslim do not have the Spirit of God with them they cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God, for it is through the Spirit that salvation comes to man.

  190. October 5, 2011 at 8:56 pm

    Shem said: “You are once again altering the question with no indication as to the reason. Can you argue my reasoning, or is your inability too do so what prompts these sudden shifts in topic.”

    As if you really know whether or not I can argue your reasoning or why I am doing what I do. I already explained what I am doing and I am not explaining it again! Shem you really irritate me. In fact, you make me angry. You continually make false negative assumptions about people, you try to pretend you know what folks are up to and in your mind they are always up to no good and you call that doing good? You don’t listen before you spout off at the mouth, you charge me with giving no indication as to the reason when I have given you indication. You don’t try and understand. And you think you are “good”? Not even close my friend. Not even close!

    There is no one who does good, not even ONE. And that includes YOU. I have witnessed this from you time and time again! You fail miserably at doing good. Yes YOU SHEM.

    Forget it Shem, you are impossible to have a civil conversation with. You have no ears to listen and you have no heart of love for people. You misjudge, hurl insults, try your best to make people look bad. Those are EVIL things not good things! You do not do good, not even once!

    You have been told this time and time again by others and you fail to find a way to improve or make ammends.
    You Shem are EVIL.

    Take care!

  191. 195 shematwater
    October 5, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    ECHO

    I made no assumption in my last post, but simply asked a question. You give no indication that you are listening to me, and this last post only furthers my point, not yours.

    I answered every question you asked, and on several occasions you changed the question, or the topic, rather than addressing the answer I have given. The only reasoning you gave for this is in one post, in which you basically say you are conducting an interview and not actually discussing.

    Can you argue the points I have made, or are you just evading them? I asked this very simple question, because your comments give the impression of evasion, and yet you vehemently deny that you are doing this. So which is it?
    If you can argue the points why have you not done so? Another reasonable question considering the nature of the discussion.

    I assume nothing but what is indicated by what I perceive, and I am very willing to be corrected and admit any error I have made, but I must be given the proof of the error, not just a lecture at how evil I am.

    As to insults, I do not throw insults around, but I do respond in kind when insulted by others. As you have never engaged in a single discussion without your self-righteous declaration of my sins is it any surprise that I would respond by pointing out yours. Please, refrain from your insults and I will refrain from any in return.

    Now, I will end this with a simple statement that it seems, from your last post, that every accusation I made was perfectly true, and it irritates you that I was.
    I made the observation that it seemed you were altering your questions to try and push me into the answer you wanted. By simply ignoring everything I have said and declaring that “No one is good” as you have done you confirm that you are dissatisfied with my answers, and so are ignoring them.
    I made the observation that you frequently alter the question or topic which seemed to indicate an unwillingness to actually address anything I have said (and so I asked why?). By simply telling me that I am not listening and how evil and hate filled I am you have simply diverted the discussion once again, confirming the suspicion that you have no answer to what I said.

    Now, I do not say these things are true, as I do not know you personally. What I do say is that based on the nature of your comments these are the most reasonable conclusions in regards to your motives. I could be wrong, and I welcome anything that will prove me such. But I have yet to see it.

    Now, let me ask a question.
    If you have never read the Bible before, and this was the first passage you did read, what would be your first impression.
    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

  192. October 5, 2011 at 11:09 pm

    Shem said: “Now, let me ask a question.
    If you have never read the Bible before, and this was the first passage you did read, what would be your first impression.
    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

    Shem, I really don’t want to talk with you anymore because it’s a complete waste of time, I have talked to you for years and your time is up but I will answer your question.

    My first impression would be that God wants me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Just like when God said: “no one is good but God alone” my first impression would be that no one is good but God alone.

    I believe God’s word. You don’t. It is a simple as that. What stands between you and faith in God’s word is pride. Pride is of the devil. You white wash your own tomb and when someone tries to flick off the rotting paint, you whitewash it again by trying to justify yourself. You don’t work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Instead you cover up all your sinful tracks with worthless words and evil deeds.

    You are not good Shem. Jesus said no one is good. And until you come to realize that and honestly admit that and unless you take off your green fig leaf apron you WILL NOT survive the judgment and Hell will be your resting place for eternity.

    Good bye Shem

  193. 197 shematwater
    October 5, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    Echo

    You said “My first impression would be that God wants me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.”

    In this first impression is there any indication of Grace or faith? If you are to work out your own salvation, what part in that does Christ have?

    My point is that you don’t believe God’s word. You believe the interpretation that you have been taught, not the words themselves. You seek only the very surface meaning, disregarding anything else as it is the surface meaning that your interpretation is based on, which is why it cannot be truly reconciled to everything the Bible teaches, because there is so much beneath the surface that you deny exists.

    Simply put, you except every contradiction and logical fallacy that is presented because it is “the word of God,” and yet reject the truth, which is the doctrine of God.

  194. October 5, 2011 at 11:33 pm

    Quote: ““I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want ‘free-will’ to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground …; but because even were there no dangers … I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success … But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God” ~Martin Luther in the book: Bondage of the Will

  195. October 5, 2011 at 11:46 pm

    I feel like i just fell into a parallel universe. Since when has Shem been anything but nice? Beats me how, all of a sudden, you guys go off on someone! W.E.I.R.D.!!

    Shem is honest. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

    I am glad that I don’t build my faith on one scripture. It is confusing and causes fear and hopelessness!

    oh, and your fig leaf comment was classless.

    ~anne

  196. October 6, 2011 at 12:00 am

    Shem said: “My point is that you don’t believe God’s word. You believe the interpretation that you have been taught, not the words themselves. You seek only the very surface meaning, disregarding anything else as it is the surface meaning that your interpretation is based on, which is why it cannot be truly reconciled to everything the Bible teaches, because there is so much beneath the surface that you deny exists…My point is that you don’t believe God’s word.”

    Can nothing good come out of your mouth? I believe God’s words verbatim! NOTHING more, NOTHING less. Just as I have stated. How totally blind you are!

    You said that when Jesus said: “no one is good but God alone” he didn’t mean what he said! WHO is following interpretations that they have been taught? YOU. FOR YOU twist what Jesus clearly taught. Only the devil leads one beyond the plain and simple truth (or surface truth as you call it). The surface truth is the truth. Have you forgotten that God makes his truth so simple in fact that a child can understand it? I guess you have forgotten. or maybe you think the bible isn’t true when it says that either because there is a supposed: “deeper truth”! Ridiculous!

    Jesus said that no one is good but God alone and he meant it! The words are so plain and simple that even a child can understand it. But the devil knows that and he wants to complicate matters by decieving you into thinking there is truth beyond the surface. And believe you me, anything beyond the surface belongs to the devil for the devil dwells below the surface and thrives there.

    Shem said: “Simply put, you except every contradiction and logical fallacy that is presented because it is “the word of God,” and yet reject the truth, which is the doctrine of God.”

    Your God (idol) is your own mind and human reason. You place those things above God’s own word and because of that, you can’t learn a single truth from God. You won’t listen to him or hear what he has to say simply because it doesn’t fit in with your thinking(which can be wrong), it doesn’t fit with what you know (which can be wrong),and it doesn’t fit within your human reason (which can be wrong). And because it contradicts your own thinking (which also can be wrong) you think it can’t be true, but IT IS TRUE and YOU ARE WRONG, NOT GOD. And such an idol will destroy you. And it will destroy your soul my friend. Because you are wrong and much too stubborn to listen to anything. You have way to much pride to admit that you could be wrong about all of these things and in all of these areas. You are heading straight towards Hell and too stubborn and deaf to hear anyone out who is out to save you from that fate. By all means Shem, have it your way, I have nothing left to give you, no energy left for you.

    Good bye!

  197. October 6, 2011 at 12:23 am

    Anne you are as blind as Shem is. Trust me you fail at being good in far more ways than Shem. To me, as a non LDS Christian, when I hear you say that you follow Jesus’ example and then see how you treat people, your wickedness blinds me like a bolt of lightening. Obviously you are blind to your glaring sins and contempt for people.

    Obviously Christians and Mormons have very different views of sin. And the seriousness of sin. And what sin is in and of itself. Mormons take sin very lightly, excusing it, not apologizing for it, encouraging it, finding excuses to get out of being guilty of it etc etc. Christians do not. Suprised to hear that from me? Well it is true.

    And Anne, all your “feelings” that have led you to all of these numerous false assumptions and personal hits against people up to date have been wrong. DEAD WRONG. And you believe the Holy Spirit impacts your feelings? WOW have you been decieved because up to this point your feelings have never been right about us.

    Your whole demeanor, your whole personality, your whole presence here has been nothing more than classless. It’s been downright ungodly, evil and completely uncivil. That may not be how Mormons view you, but that is how Christians view you. Why? Because we have seen Jesus’ true example and we do try to follow his example (not to be saved though) but at the same time, we know that we are not good and that no one is good but God alone. You are too proud, too whitewashed to admit that truth. But in Christianity, your actions on this blog are enough to condemn you to Hell for eternity. That is how serious your sins are.

    And how blind you are to truth.

  198. October 6, 2011 at 12:36 am

    And Anne, until you and Shem admit that truth that is so plain to us, we cannot help you at all. When you freely admit this truth to us, we can set you free and tell you what Jesus has done to save you. Until then, it’s pointless to tell you what Jesus has done for you. You will be too hard hearted to hear it.

  199. 203 shematwater
    October 6, 2011 at 3:48 am

    ECHO

    Martin Luthor was a great man, was inspired by the Spirit of God. However, he was not a prophet and he even admitted that he did not have the authority to act in God’s name.
    I am greatful that I don’t have to go to a man to find support for the Lord’s doctrine, but can go to his inspired scriptures and learn it for myself.

    Now, I have to laugh a little at your hypocrisy. You redicule and rile against me and Anne, and yet you see no real fault in yourself. You mirepresent our doctrine so blatantly that it is difficult for anyone with any understanding to believe it is not an intentional deception, and then you lord your-self over us in the most condescending, self-righteous manner that your any honest person can see only your attempt to make yourself better than us.

    Just so you understand things, if I was holding my human reasoning up above the gospel and the words of God I would have rejected all religion long ago, as that is what human reason will ultimately lead to. Your own arrogance blinds you to the fact that I rely on divine reasoning to learn the truth, and no amount cleverly concealed contradictions are going to lead me astray. You might as well be telling me that the sun doesn’t rise in the morning as telling me the truth is not in the LDS church. My own experience proves you wrong time again, and the divine reasoning of the scriptures uncovers the flaws in your doctrine every time.

    And Echo, until you admit that truth that is so plain to us, we cannot help you at all. When you freely admit this truth to us, we can set you free and tell you what Jesus has done to save you. Until then, it’s pointless to tell you what Jesus has done for you. You will be too hard hearted to hear it.

  200. October 6, 2011 at 4:55 am

    Shem said: “and yet you see no real fault in yourself. ”

    Once again you prove to me that you don’t read what I write.

  201. October 6, 2011 at 5:01 am

    Echo,

    You are not my judge. Surprise!

    I am honest. I “calls them as I sees them”. You and RLO both go off on people without any provocation.

    Have I EVER judged you as EVIL? Have I ever condemned YOU to hell? That is NOT how LDS people think or operate. We have tried and tried to explain things to you, but we are met with contempt and judgement.

    Wow….you guys are SO touchy and unreasonable.

    I choose to believe that people are good. You believe everyone (except yourself) is evil. I believe in the Spirit of the Law, you believe in the letter of the law. (as I recall, Paul said that the “letter” leads to death). I believe Jesus Christ is the Lord, and You think he was killed by our “sins”.

    EVERY belief I have is easily backed up in the Bible. You have to ignore HALF the Bible to make your points!
    (i.e. baptism for the dead, the nature of God; as in there is NO trinity ever mentioned, faith and works, Priesthood, degrees of glory and/or different heavens)

    Can you have a civil discourse without flipping out? Your behavior speaks ill of you as a person and your religion as a whole.

    Because I am honest and don’t white wash my feelings you deem me to be a “jerk”. Well, buddy, why not take a look at that BEAM in your eye first!

    with love and appreciation for all your unrighteous judgments,

    Anne :)

  202. October 6, 2011 at 5:07 am

    ps….i have YET to see any of “you” who have a sense of humor! Not one of you have recognized “tongue in cheek” rhetoric. NOT ONE. sheesh! lighten up!

    from yours truly. the class-less one.

    anne

  203. 207 shematwater
    October 6, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    ECHO

    I read everything you write, and I will sum it up right here.

    “We are all evil, as no one is good by God, but since I have excepted Christ and have been made perfect I am better than you because I don’t have to repent, while you are so deluded you still think that what you do matters or has any effect on anything. I am the superior person because I have rejected your notions of personal accountability and have accepted perfection at the hand of Christ. I am perfect, and until you accept that you will never be as good as I am.”

    I really don’t care what the actual words you use are, this is the feel and meaning that they portray, and that they have always portrayed. You have no fault for the simple fact that Christ took it all away, and so no matter what you do you will always be perfect. It is an attitude of self-righteousness and arrogance.

    I am not surprised you don’t recognize it though. Since you seem to lack any ability to see beyond the actual words and their surface meaning in the scriptures, why should we think you can see beyond this in your own comments. In your mind because you said it it has to be true.

  204. 208 shematwater
    October 6, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    ANNE

    While we have had our differences, I have to agree with you here. When it comes to discussing religion there is little room for humor in the minds of those whose goal is to destroy the faith of others.

  205. October 6, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    oh, and don’t worry, Echo. Mark will swoop in and close this post and you will be saved from making any more of a fool of yourself. Shem has been an honest gentleman. YOU have criticized everything from his style of writing to his personal point of view. you are so predictable; when you start to “lose” the argument you start hurling insults and condemning us all to Hell!

    Just a little question: IF, as you say, Jesus is your “substitute”, then why does the Bible say we will be judged for our actions? Why would the Lord lie to us? Why tell us that our actions matter and then change the rules of the game? Why tell us that we need to strive for perfection just to pull the rug out and say Just Kidding!

    Because you can’t answer simple questions like this you will get mad, say there is “no sense in talking to you people” and pout self-righteously.

    I, for one, get a kick out of this whole process. You react and act EXACTLY like other “Christian” (i use that term loosely) people who want to show LDS the “superior” truths you espouse. We see through you!


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