31
Oct
11

Surviving Scrutiny

Every time another presidential election approaches, I wonder why anybody would want to be president.  As soon as a candidate becomes popular, the scrutiny intensifies.  Right now Herman Cain is under the microscope.  Investigative reporters are digging to find anything unsavory in his past. Why would anybody put himself through that?

But the scrutiny presidential candidates are under is nothing compared to the scrutiny every single person is under – from God himself.  Every once in a while an open mike picks up some non-political correct statement made by a candidate.  But God hears every single word we utter – even in the privacy of our homes.  Every word mumbled under our breath.  Every word spoken to our spouse and kids.  Every word complaining about our co-workers and neighbors.  He hears them all and holds us accountable for them.  “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”  (Matthew 12:36)

But it’s not just our words he scrutinizes.  Just think of how revealing it would be if we could watch a videotape of a candidate’s thoughts!  Well, God sees our every thought.  Jesus cites one example of this when he said, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”  (Matthew 5:28)  God sees every trace of bitterness in us; every selfish thought, every worry lays open before him.  He comes face to face with all our putrid thoughts.

How can anybody survive such scrutiny?  It usually takes only one piece of dirt in a candidate’s past to bring him or her crashing down.  It doesn’t even matter how much good the person has done since.  One scandal and they are finished.

Therefore it is the height of foolishness to think that we can survive God’s scrutiny by making good.  This is true especially when we realize that we haven’t stopped speaking sinful words or having sinful thoughts.  Each and every day we aren’t making good.  We are giving God more evidence of our sinfulness. We are doomed.

Or we should be.  But God has stepped in and done a most remarkable thing.  He punished Jesus for our sins instead of us.  On top of that he had Jesus live a perfect life for us.  In Jesus alone – and only in Jesus – can we survive God’s scrutiny.  Anybody who bases any of his hopes of surviving God’s scrutiny on what he does, remains doomed.  His imperfect works ruins Jesus’ perfection.  May you all trust solely and completely in what Jesus has done for you.  Your eternal destiny depends on it.

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58 Responses to “Surviving Scrutiny”


  1. 1 Rachel Smith
    October 31, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    Hi ! We all love Spell Check but depend on it too much sometimes! It is hard when the mispelled word is another word spelled correctly! Love this post but you need to change the word “Just” to “Lust” in the verse quoted by Jesus. (Matthew 5:28) Thanks!

  2. 2 markcares
    October 31, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    Thanks

  3. 3 shematwater
    October 31, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    I would agree with most of what you say.

    I will make the comment that a candidate falls from one scandal generally because those who are scrutinizing him are human, and are thus not prone to justice, but to revenge.
    God, on the other hand, is perfectly just. While we will fall in his eyes due to our actions, we can also rise in his favor because of our actions. God will not condemn anyone unjustly, nor will he save anyone unjustly.

  4. 4 markcares
    October 31, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    Shem:
    Would you agree that an action cannot be contaminated by any sin to be acceptable before God? For example, if a person helped a person out but had an unclean motive for doing that would not that unclean motive nullify the whole action? How many of our actions are totally pure, uncontaminated so that we can rise in his favor?

  5. November 1, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    God did NOT “punish” Jesus.

    The Savior TOOK UPON HIMSELF our sins.

    Big difference.

  6. 6 markcares
    November 1, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    “The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6
    Also Romans 3:25: “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood.” Propitiation means the appeasement of wrath.

  7. November 1, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Jesus couldn’t have paid for our sins if God did not “punish” Jesus for our sins.

    Our sins deserve God’s punishment and wrath. “The wages of sin is death”. God’s wrath and punishment are the price that had to be paid for our sins. In order for Jesus to pay for our sins, he had to suffer God’s wrath and punishment.

    Take away God’s wrath and punishment inflicted on Jesus and we have no Savior for our sins.

    The wrath and punishment Jesus suffered, he suffered as our substitute. He bore our punishment on the cross, the punishment we deserve for our sins.

    Now we are free from God’s wrath and punishment and all because of Jesus. He paid the cost in full. It’s his free gift to us.

  8. 8 shematwater
    November 1, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    MARK

    You ask “if a person helped a person out but had an unclean motive for doing that would not that unclean motive nullify the whole action?”

    I say no. It will definitely lesson the action, but it will not nullify it. To say that helping someone is not a good act simply because the person had a selfish reason for doing so is not just.
    Now, this kind of action would receive much less favor than one done in the proper spirit, but it will still receive favor.
    Take for example, Naaman the Syrian. He was told to wash seven times in Jordon, which insulted him. when he finally did wash he still received the promised blessings, without regard to his motivation.
    In the same way our actions will receive their just, and predetermined reward, regardless of our motivations, for God has decreed it. For instance, it says to “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” (Exodus 20: 12) If we honor our parents we will have long lives, regardless of the reasons for honoring them.

    Do not think that I am discounting motivation. Motivation is a large part of the gospel, and the greatest rewards in heaven can only be attained by those of the proper motivation. Just because someone does all they are supposed to, they may not be found worthy of the Celestial Kingdom because their reasons for doing so were not good. But still, they will receive some reward for their good actions.
    Of course, the other side is also true. One who does evil, no matter how good their intentions or motivations were, will still receive the proper reward (or punishment) for those actions, though it may be a little less because of their motivation.

    As to Christ being punished, I have to agree with Anne that there was no punishment. Punishment is a consequence of action. No action on Christ’s part would have resulted in this consequence, and thus it is misleading to term it a punishment.
    It is like a friend posting bail. The one accused of the crime must still stand trial, and if found guilty must pay the price. But the friend can give the money required to post bail, and even pay the required fine. However, the law has not punished the friend, but the criminal.
    God did not punish Christ. He has sent punishment on us. Christ, as the good friend that he is, has simply chosen to post bail (or pay the fine).

  9. November 1, 2011 at 11:11 pm

    “The Lord hath laid upon HIMSELF the iniquity of us all.” (my interpretation of that scripture…Jesus is “Lord”) He took our sins upon himself.

    If He didn’t take it upon himself, he could not be our “Savior”….but would have instead been our whipping post.

    God did not “punish” the Savior. the Savior volunteered for this assignment. Interesting that the Savior’s word was such a sure promise that millions of people were saved BEFORE he actually died on the cross…just by accepting that Jesus WOULD be our Savior.

    ~anne

  10. 10 markcares
    November 1, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    Anne:
    The original Hebrew of Isaiah 53:6 is clear. The subject “LORD” and the object “him” are two different persons. I also find it interesting that the LDS Bible references 2 Corinthians 5:21 in connection with Is. 53:6 “For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

  11. November 2, 2011 at 1:12 am

    are you inferring that the LDS bible cross-reference backs up your claim? that would be interesting.

  12. November 2, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Mark,
    Also, I do not take issue with the fact that Jesus took our punishment. Just your choice of wording that “God punished Jesus for our sins”. I would have said “God allowed Jesus to be punished in our stead”.

    I think there is a big difference.

    ~anne

  13. 13 JBR
    November 2, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    The key aspect about the scrutiny that everyone will face is …
    ” Anybody who bases any of his hopes of surviving God’s scrutiny on what he does, remains doomed.”

    There is no percentage factor other than 100%

    100% Jesus’ efforts being perfect all the time which is credited to the believer freely
    ….. or ……..
    100% your efforts being perfect all the time

  14. November 2, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    such doom and gloom. ever heard of repentance?

    we CAN become perfect through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

    I do not believe our Heavenly Father would set us up to fail by giving us an unattainable commandment. As we follow the Savior’s example, walk the strait and narrow way, repent as needed, obey; then we can become like him and become perfect.

  15. 15 shematwater
    November 2, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    MARK

    I don’t know that much about Hebrew, but do they have the same grammar that we do?
    Just curious, if you are right, who are the two different people?

    Personally, it is possible for one person to be both the subject and the object of a sentence, so just because they are different grammatical forms doesn’t mean they different people.

    I just find language fascinating.

    JBR

    It is all a matter of interpretation. I don’t believe the Bible presents the choices you do, but advocates a more cooperative manner of us doing what we can and Christ doing the rest to make the total 100%

  16. 16 rechtglaubig
    November 2, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    Annemckee,

    “I do not believe our Heavenly Father would set us up to fail by giving us an unattainable commandment. As we follow the Savior’s example, walk the strait and narrow way, repent as needed, obey; then we can become like him and become perfect.”

    “19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3)

  17. November 2, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    rechtglaubig,

    I believe that Paul was talking about the Law of Moses. THAT law was just a school master and did not save anyone. It was only to prepare the lazy people to live the law that Jesus would give…a celestial law. the Jews became so caught up in the “letter” of the law that they neglected the “spirit” of the law. the Law of Moses was not capable of “justifying” anyone. Knowledge of the law makes us accountable….then we can repent, obey, put ourselves in line with God. The Law of Moses was supposed to point their minds towards the Messiah who was to come. Now that He is here, they are being taught to follow His law instead.

    Christ and the restoration of the higher laws and ordinances saves people.

    ~anne

  18. November 2, 2011 at 11:21 pm

    Annemckee,

    “I do not believe our Heavenly Father would set us up to fail by giving us an unattainable commandment. As we follow the Savior’s example, walk the strait and narrow way, repent as needed, obey; then we can become like him and become perfect.”

    1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

  19. November 3, 2011 at 12:20 am

    Shem said: “It is all a matter of interpretation. I don’t believe the Bible presents the choices you do, but advocates a more cooperative manner of us doing what we can and Christ doing the rest to make the total 100%”

    I think the Bible presents Jesus doing all of it or none of it. Grace or works. One or the other. It’s 100% grace or 100% works.

    Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

  20. 20 rechtglaubig
    November 3, 2011 at 12:41 am

    Annemckee,

    “Now that He is here, they are being taught to follow His law instead.”

    This is not what Paul says when he continues in the next very next verse,

    ” 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Romans 3)

    He doesn’t tack on new laws, he excludes law altogether [“without the law”].

  21. 21 JBR
    November 3, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Shem,
    I can only say that the interpetation issue is not the factor you’re making it out to be. 100% Jesus’ efforts being perfect all the time which is credited to the believer freely.

    Passages like Galations 4:26, Matthew 10:8, Hosea 14:4, Romans 3:24, Revelation 21:6 simply verifies that.

  22. 22 shematwater
    November 3, 2011 at 6:06 pm

    rechtglaubig

    As Anne has said, Paul is excluding the Law of Moses. He is not excluding the commands that Jesus has given, but those that, at the time, were known as the Law. No, he doesn’t say the Law of Moses, but he didn’t need to. By referencing “the Law” it would have been understood that this is what he was talking about. He does not use the term law in regards to what Christ taught because doing so would have been confusing to those of his day.
    In the passage you give he talks of the “righteousness of God” which was brought about by Christ. His righteousness, or his works are the new standard, one that can only be reached through faith on His blood. We are not to live according to the Law, as the Law cannot save. But we are to live according to the righteousness of Christ through faith, by which salvation is made possible.

    ECHO

    Notice that Paul is speaking of the Election of Grace in this passage (as seen in verse 5). He describes how God has reserved some faithful people to him in that day. He is talking about placing people whom he knew would be faithful, or choosing those spirits who were choice enough in the previous life to be the remnant of the faithful in Israel in this life. This election is completely dependent on the Grace of God. Nothing we do in this life has any effect on where we were born. That is up to God. Thus, the blessings of Birth are “by grace and not of works.”

    JBR

    Romans 3: 24 “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”

    Matthew 10: 8 “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

    Revelation 21: 6 “And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.”

    Hosea 14: 4 “I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.”

    Galatians 4: 26 But “Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

    Let us consider these verses.
    Galatians 4: 26 is speaking of the New Jerusalem, which John saw descending from Heaven. Notice that it says the ‘Jerusalem which is above’ and thus distinguishes it from the Jerusalem mentioned in verse 25, which is the city in Israel.

    Take the others collectively, let us look at the one word they all have in common: Freely.
    Now, according to the dictionary the first (and thus most common meaning) for the word is “able to act at will; not under compulsion or restraint”
    So, these verses are not saying that 100% of Jesus’ efforts are credited to the believer “free of charge” as it were, but that Christ acts of his own free will, without being compelled or restrained, to give his grace to believers. With this the term now describes Christ’s actions, and not the conditions of receiving them.

    Romans 3: 24 Jesus will willingly, without compulsion or restraint, justify those who comply with his righteousness. (See my remark to rechtglaubig)

    Matthew 10: 8 Christ has willingly, without compulsion or restraint, given spiritual gifts to the twelve, and commands them to act in a similar manner.

    Revelation 21: 6 Jesus will willingly, without compulsion of restraint, give of the water of life (or the Gospel).
    Note: in verse 22 it says that all things are given to those who overcome, indicating they must do something after they receive the gospel.

    Hosea 14: 4 God will, without compulsion or restraint, love the repentant of Israel in the last days.
    Note: This verse speaks to love, not to salvation. God does not stop loving a person simply because he is forced to condemn them.

    So, I maintain that it is a matter of interpretation, and no verse given, as yet, has proven otherwise.

  23. November 4, 2011 at 12:33 am

    Shem said: “Notice that Paul is speaking of the Election of Grace in this passage (as seen in verse 5). He describes how God has reserved some faithful people to him in that day. He is talking about placing people whom he knew would be faithful, or choosing those spirits who were choice enough in the previous life to be the remnant of the faithful in Israel in this life. This election is completely dependent on the Grace of God. Nothing we do in this life has any effect on where we were born. That is up to God. Thus, the blessings of Birth are “by grace and not of works.”

    You are adding a lot of information that isn’t written anywhere in the context of what is actually written in the Bible.

    This is basically what I see you doing with the Bible when you do that…

    If the BOM says: “For it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do”

    and I add two little words like this…

    ” For it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do to sin”.

    The two words (to sin) that I have added, completely alter and even contradict the true meaning of the actual text.

    No where in the Bible does it say: “He is talking about placing people whom he knew would be faithful, or choosing those spirits who were choice enough in the previous life to be the remnant of the faithful in Israel in this life.”

    or

    “Nothing we do in this life has any effect on where we were born.”

    or

    “Thus, the blessings of Birth are “by grace and not of works.”

    Lets stick to the passages here and the context only. With that in mind, lets study the words in scripture…

  24. November 4, 2011 at 12:42 am

    So lets stick to the passages only and not add anything that isn’t written there…

    Lets Go back a bit in Romans for some context…

    Romans 1:1-7…

    “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Who is Paul speaking to?

  25. November 4, 2011 at 1:09 am

    “without the law” means outside the law. 21. “The righteousness of God “outside the law of Moses” is manifest” that means that Jesus Christ has brought a new law…God’s righteousness (God’s Law of the celestial kingdom) was manifested through Jesus Christ who is the author of the new covenant.

    the rest now makes sense. We must follow Jesus Christ and we will have remission of our sins through the atoning sacrifice (propitiation) that he made for us.

    that is how I see it.

    ~anne

  26. November 4, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    echo,

    one simple scripture makes your statement false. Jesus requires baptism, which is a “work”.

    he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

    ~anne

  27. November 5, 2011 at 6:35 am

    Baptism isn’t a work when God is doing something for us, and to us, in our Baptism. Baptism then becomes his work, not ours. God is saving us in our Baptism. It is his work.

  28. November 5, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    I disagree with you Echo. Baptism is a choice, thus it is our job to do it…making it a work. no surprise that I disagree, eh? :)

    anyway, here is a change in topic, but still on the “scrutiny” line. I have always wondered why Christians want to deny what was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsamane. Why do you guys think that the Savior’s only suffering was on the cross?

    ~anne

  29. November 5, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Anne said: “I disagree with you Echo. Baptism is a choice, thus it is our job to do it…making it a work. no surprise that I disagree, eh? :) ”

    For us, Baptism is kind of like an Orphan recieving their adoption papers. It’s not a choice the orphan made, it was a choice the adoptive parents made. While the orphan recieved the adoption papers, all the “work” is credited to the adoptive parents…

    1 Thessalonians 1:4 “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you

    Romans 8:15 “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”

    Ephesians 1:5-6 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”

    Anne said: “I have always wondered why Christians want to deny what was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsamane. Why do you guys think that the Savior’s only suffering was on the cross?”

    We believe that Jesus suffered extreme anguish in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus sweat drops of blood due to the extreme anguish he was in. In Gesthsemane Jesus said: “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42)

    In the Old Testament, the “cup” was a term used to describe the infliction of punishment associated with the wrath of God (Psalm 75:8; Jeremiah 25:15, 17, 28; Lamentations 4:21; Ezekiel 23:31-33; Habakkuk 2:16).

    Jesus suffered that extreme anguish in Gethsemane in anticipation of the “far greater suffering” he was about to face on the cross where he finally bore in his body the wrath and punishment that you and I deserve for all of our sins. And because Jesus bore all our sins and became sin(2 Cor 5:21), Jesus was forsaken by God.

    The Atonement took place on the cross , not in Gethsemane. Jesus had to suffer the wrath of God before he could atone for our sins. All throughout the Old Testament, animals had to be slaughtered (DIE) to atone for sin. One example of countless examples in the Bible is Leviticus 4:27-31…

    “‘If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

    Notice that the person was forgiven because the slaughtered animal made atonement for their sins.

    In the same way Jesus is our lamb without defect. He was slaughtered on the cross to make atonement for our sins. We have been forgiven because Jesus shed his blood and died and not because of anything that we do.

    Forgiveness is our healing and we have already been forgiven and healed: Isaiah 53:5 “by his wounds we are healed”

    Knowing that we have been fully forgiven brings such “peace” into our hearts. We now have that peace in our hearts. Mormonism causes fear in hearts. Jesus erases all that fear in our hearts and replaces it with peace and forgiveness right now and forevermore.

    Isaiah 53:5 “the punishment that brought us PEACE was upon him”

    We know we are fully forgiven because it all depended on Jesus’s blood sacrifice and doesn’t depend on our works or doing all we can do. Jesus did all he could do so we no longer have to live with fear.

    1 Peter 2:24 “by his wounds you have been healed.”

    “Have been healed” not “will be healed” It done! Jesus said: “It is finished!”

    If forgiveness hinges on our works as the LDS teaches, the Bible would have to say: “1 Peter 2:24 ” by his wounds you can be healed” after doing all you can do of course.

    But the Bible doesn’t say that! It says: 1 Peter 2:24 “by his wounds YOU HAVE BEEN healed.”

    IT’S ALL DONE. IT’S FINISHED

    Praise God I have complete peace with God without any fear because I KNOW without a doubt, that all my sins have been forgiven! Anne, you can KNOW too!

  30. November 5, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    Are you feeling worthy?

    His Healing now…

    http://hishealingnow.com/

  31. November 6, 2011 at 4:00 am

    Echo,

    the law of Moses was done away with. Its purpose was to point the Jews towards the coming Messiah.

    why do you think that the Saviors agony in the Garden was not part of the Atonement? who says suffering for our sins is “God’s wrath”? that was so made up sounding to me. Why make things so difficult and complicated?

    Jesus suffered in Gethsamane and on the cross. His suffering ALL constituted the Atonement.

    Jesus WAS NOT “forsaken” by God because “he was now sin”. That is crazy. (I was going to say something a little stronger…but I resisted :)

    Jesus was left alone because he had to accomplish the task alone. He did not even have the comfort of the Spirit with him. To say that “he was now sin” is not one bit true. He took our punishment….he did not “become” a sinner.

    ~anne

    Have you ever been a member of my church? How can YOU say that Mormonism causes fear? You are 100% wrong.

  32. November 6, 2011 at 4:51 am

    Anne said: “the law of Moses was done away with.”

    Yes the animal sacrifices were done away with. I agree with you. :)

    Hebrews 10:11 “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:”

    The verse above talks about the Old Testament animal “sacrifices” that “atoned” for sin. This was done away with as Hebrews talks about.

    However, Jesus replaced the Old Testament animal “sacrifices” by “sacrificing” himself. See for yourself…

    Hebrews 10:12 “But this man[Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

    Jesus was not sacrificed in Gethsemane. He was sacrificed on the cross.

    Anne said: “why do you think that the Saviors agony in the Garden was not part of the Atonement?”

    Without the sacrifice of life, sin cannot be atoned for. That is what the Bible teaches.

    Anne said: “who says suffering for our sins is “God’s wrath”?”

    Jesus said: “Father, if you are willing, take this “cup” from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42)

    In the Old Testament, the “cup” was a term used to describe the infliction of punishment associated with the wrath of God (Psalm 75:8; Jeremiah 25:15, 17, 28; Lamentations 4:21; Ezekiel 23:31-33; Habakkuk 2:16).
    Read those passages and you will see.

    Anne said: “Jesus WAS NOT “forsaken” by God because “he was now sin”. That is crazy.”

    Mathew 27:46 ” My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

    2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

  33. November 6, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    Echo,

    there are too many details we disagree on. i don’t have the time or patience to correct your every mistake…but here is one GLARING one that I can’t let pass:

    2 Corinthians 5:21: your interpretation is that Jesus “became a sinner”? Is that correct?

    That is SO wrong,,,as a matter of fact, that it is off the charts!

    Jesus Christ DID NOT BECOME A SINNER. Wow…..I really cannot believe the little twists and tweaks that have snuck into your “doctrine”. That is right up there with the Savior “BEING KILLED BY SIN”.

    Heavenly Father provided a plan to redeem us. Jesus volunteered for the job. he did this before the foundation of the world. It was not a surprise….it was not a last minute decision. The “cup” represents the “plan”. The plan was to take upon himself the sins of the world….and not only the sins, but the heartaches, the ills, the pains, the whole works. It was an INFINITE atonement. Jesus would be able to “succor” his people, because he had experienced the whole gamut of mortality and its problems. He suffered in the Garden. He was in agony.

    bottom line here: Jesus Christ TOOK UPON HIMSELF OUR SINS AND PAINS. He was not punished by God. He did not become a sinner. He suffered under the weight of our sins and the sins of all mankind. I think there is a BIG difference!

    What you don’t understand about the Law of Moses is: it was designed to POINT the people’s hearts to the Messiah and his message. It, in and of itself, was not the way to salvation. The people still needed to repent, change their lives, keep the commandments, etc. Killing a bird DID NOT FREE THEM FROM PUNISHMENT.
    The whole point was for them to do the “chore” and LEARN the lesson. The “chore” did nothing. The people, by and large, did not learn the lessons. That is where the Pharisees come in. The did the outward “chores” but never learned “why” they were doing them and never internalized the lessons.

    the Savior finished his work. Our work is still here. We still need to keep the commandments, repent, make daily changes to be like him.

    I know the truth, Echo. I have it made known to me over and over. Especially when reading the convoluted theories that people on this blog espouse.

    the Gospel is simple and plain. I just laugh and shake my head at the crazy, illogical interpretations that some people come up with.

    enjoy your sabbath…you know…no two handed knots, no collecting manna!
    ~anne

  34. November 6, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    Anne said: “2 Corinthians 5:21: your interpretation is that Jesus “became a sinner”? Is that correct?”

    No. That’s incorrect.

    The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he hath made him to be sin for us , who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

  35. November 6, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    Anne, have you passed the crucial test of repentance?

  36. November 6, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    Echo,

    so, explain what you think that scripture means. I am sorry if I misunderstood….but i thought you said that is why the Savior was forsaken…because he was a sinner.

    I look at that differently. I think it means that the Father gave us the Savior to pay for our sins, that we may be purified and cleansed through Christ.

    and…what is the “crucial test of repentance”? that one is news to me. never heard of that “test”. Is it in the Bible?

    ~anne

  37. November 7, 2011 at 5:24 am

    The scripture means that the guilt of your sin and my sin was imputed to Jesus.

    Anne said: “what is the “crucial test of repentance”?

    Have you abandoned all of your sins?

  38. November 7, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Jesus Christ is our “redeemer”. To redeem means to “pay off”. He paid off our debt of sin. He DID NOT become the “sinner”. Our sins are NOT his. He came through that whole ordeal pure and clean and perfect.

    God’s “wrath” was NOT directed at him. God did NOT “punish” him. He paid the price for us. he stepped in and took the punishment that we deserve IF we do not repent. Many people will still pay the price for their own sins because they do not take the chance to repent.

    As for “my sins”. I am a mortal and therefore I am not perfect. At baptism I was washed clean. Each week as I take the Sacrament, I again renew my covenants with the Lord and am washed clean. I repent daily and when I do ALL that I can humanly do…the Savior makes up the difference. That is the truth…the magnificent truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    ~anne

  39. November 7, 2011 at 6:26 pm

    Anne said: “Jesus Christ is our “redeemer”. To redeem means to “pay off”. He paid off our debt of sin. He DID NOT become the “sinner”. Our sins are NOT his. He came through that whole ordeal pure and clean and perfect.”…”God’s “wrath” was NOT directed at him. God did NOT “punish” him.”

    I didn’t say he became a sinner. Your sin and mine was imputed to him. Do you know what “imputed” means?

    God’s wrath was upon him. Jesus willingly suffered the wrath of God that both YOU and I deserve for our sins. God is a God of justice. Your sin and mine deserve ONLY God’s wrath both now and in eternity. Jesus bore the wrath of God in our place, as our substitute. Yet he himself was sinless.

    Anne said: “I repent daily “

    On page 148 of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith said…

    “Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

    Anne said: “and when I do ALL that I can humanly do…the Savior makes up the difference.”

    You may be trying your best. That is commendable, but the problem is President Kimball also said “Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164).

  40. 40 shematwater
    November 7, 2011 at 9:38 pm

    Since Echo doesn’t really understand the words of the prophets, so the attempt to use them generally doesn’t mean anything.
    However, in this instance I think Echo has a point, though I don’t think she knows what it is, as I don’t think she understands what Anne is saying.

    Daily transgression and daily sin, as spoken of by Joseph Smith, refers to those who have the attitude of “I will commit sin now, and later today I will pray to God for forgiveness and will be washed clean. This is a false idea that leads to gross wickedness. God does not want people to excuse sin as something easily repented of thus of little consequence. What God wants is people who, when they sin, are grieved in soul and are harrowed in with Godly sorrow, and immediately turn to the Lord and beg for his forgiveness, pleading for the strength to never again offend His righteousness.
    This is what I think Anne was speaking of when she mentioned daily repentance, not the attitude spoken of by Joseph Smith.
    As to President Kimball, it is very true that trying is not sufficient. But then merely trying indicates the willingness to give up trying, or cease all effort with the proclamation that “I tried and that is all I needed to do.” This is not sufficient. A person who merely tries is always looking for the point at which they can stop trying. Merely trying also indicates that none of the needed work actually gets done, because the person quit. If any of the needed work was completed it would not be merely trying, but doing. Trying is not sufficient, and an attitude of merely trying will never result in complete repentance. It is those who never stop trying, who say to themselves “I will continue the work given to me,” and never even consider that a time will come when they can no longer do the work, that receive forgiveness. These are they who endure to the end, waiting until they are told “Well done though good and faithful servant” before they will even consider ceasing their labors.
    Again, I think this is what Anne was speaking in her comments, and not the attitude of merely trying.

    Echo does make a good point that one cannot excuse their actions or think “I will repent later,” but I do not think it is a point relevant to the meaning of Anne’s comments.

    ECHO

    Speaking of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, he is writing to the members of the church in Rome, the saints. He states this rather clearly in the quote you give.

    Now, consider Romans 9: 11 “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

    This verse clearly states that concept of Election is a doctrine referring to this life (the place and circumstances of birth) and that it is not effected by what we do in this life. And thus, contrary to your earlier statements, the Bible states quite clearly that “Nothing we do in this life has any effect on where we were born.” and “Thus, the blessings of Birth are “by grace and not of works.”

    This same concept of Election is what is being addressed in Romans 11: 6, that of the blessings of birth, or the circumstances into which a person is born. It has nothing to do with Eternal Salvation.

  41. November 7, 2011 at 11:01 pm

    Shem said: “Since Echo doesn’t really understand the words of the prophets, so the attempt to use them generally doesn’t mean anything.”

    Please keep assumptions out of the conversation. Thanks.
    For example, I could make the same assumption against you by saying that YOU don’t yet really understand the words of the prophets and that I have come to see those words for what they really are, the words of false prophets who have deceived you. So let’s just stick to the facts and not assumptions. Please keep assumptions out of the conversation. Thanks.

    Shem said: “Echo does make a good point that one cannot excuse their actions or think “I will repent later,” but I do not think it is a point relevant to the meaning of Anne’s comments.”

    Could you let Anne answer my questions to her that are about her personally and about her understanding? I would like to get her opinion and feedback, not yours. If that’s okay. I think Anne is doing a great job of showing us her wealth of knowledge and understanding of LDS Doctrine all on her own. She is much more capable and qualified to do that than you seem to be giving her credit for. Thanks Shem. :)

  42. 42 shematwater
    November 8, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    ECHO

    I wasn’t responding to questions, but to comments. You quoted two of the prophets in response to Anne, but you offered to question or even explanation. I simply filled in what I saw was lacking.

    As to assumptions, it is not an assumption if you have continually demonstrated it in previous threads. If I am wrong in my statement that you do a brilliant job of concealing your understanding most of the time.

  43. November 8, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Shem said: “As to assumptions, it is not an assumption if you have continually demonstrated it in previous threads. If I am wrong in my statement that you do a brilliant job of concealing your understanding most of the time.”

    “OR” ….

    YOU Shem are currently incapable of understanding “the simple to understand” information that I present to you because you’re not intelligent enough or your pride has blinded you. Which you seem to have continually demonstrated to be the very case in previous threads.

    You see, two can play your devil’s game Shem.

    Notice how if it turns out that “you are wrong” in your statements about me, then you say it’s MY FAULT because I am “concealing ” something. You are always playing the devil’s cards against me in order to justify yourself. You are a man with way too much pride Shem. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, JUST MAYBE… “If you are wrong” …that there is the possibility of it being YOUR FAULT rather than mine? Could it be that “if you are wrong” it is because you aren’t intelligent enough to understand simple teachings or are just too pride filled to be willing to take the time to understand and examine with an open mind what is said?

    See why assumptions need to be left out of the discussions now or do you still not understand?

    The fact of the matter is this. You could be wrong, I could be wrong. Keep your personal assumptions to yourself.

    Let us stick to facts and not seek to harm one another as individuals even if the other person is wrong, but let us stick to wanting to lift each other up in kindness and love and rescue one another from whatever it is the other doesn’t see.

  44. 44 shematwater
    November 8, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    ECHO

    It is always fun to read your posts. Honestly, I don’t care that much.

    Have any comment about what I said concerning Romans?

  45. 45 shematwater
    November 8, 2011 at 10:18 pm

    ECHO

    I thought we weren’t going to have any more personal attacks, insults, or assumptions.

  46. November 8, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    Anne, I am copy\pasting this post above to the bottom of the thread. (It’s easier than having to find your new posts mid thread) Can you respond at the bottom of the thread? Thank you. :)

  47. November 8, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    Anne said: “Jesus Christ is our “redeemer”. To redeem means to “pay off”. He paid off our debt of sin. He DID NOT become the “sinner”. Our sins are NOT his. He came through that whole ordeal pure and clean and perfect.”…”God’s “wrath” was NOT directed at him. God did NOT “punish” him.”

    I didn’t say he became a sinner. Your sin and mine was imputed to him. Do you know what “imputed” means? God’s wrath was upon him. Jesus willingly suffered the wrath of God that both YOU and I deserve for our sins. God is a God of justice. Your sin and mine deserve ONLY God’s wrath both now and in eternity. Jesus bore the wrath of God in our place, as our substitute. Yet he himself was sinless.

    Anne said: “I repent daily “

    On page 148 of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith said…

    “Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

    Anne said: “and when I do ALL that I can humanly do…the Savior makes up the difference.”

    You may be trying your best. That is commendable, but the problem is President Kimball also said “Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164).

  48. November 9, 2011 at 12:06 am

    Anne:

    If 1 Nephi 3:7 is true that God doesn’t give you a command that you can’t keep, why don’t you keep the commandments “continually”? (re your comment: “I repent daily”)

  49. November 9, 2011 at 12:06 am

    DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS says you must keep the commandments continually 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

  50. 50 rechtglaubig
    November 9, 2011 at 1:20 am

    Annemckee,

    “the rest now makes sense. We must follow Jesus Christ and we will have remission of our sins through the atoning sacrifice (propitiation) that he made for us.”

    I don’t think you do understand because you are still putting qualifiers on the remission of sins.

  51. 51 Kent
    November 9, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    Did Anne ever repent from referring to me as, “once a good for nothing, always a good for nothing?”

    She said it was a joke but a joke isn’t hurtful and besides, she has said she doesn’t like of respect any of us so how could I take it as a joke?

    She basically laughed if off as my problem if I can’t take a joke but I took it as being disrespectful and while, I admit, don’t have respect for the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc, I had and, to a certain extent, still have respect for her for her passion for what she believes.

    I know she and other Mormons have a special place in their hearts for the teachings of Smith and company but I can be critical of their teachings without disrespecting anyone as a person.

  52. 52 shematwater
    November 9, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    ECHO

    Again, I thought personal attacks weren’t going to be part of the discussion. Let us let accusations of sin out of it, as that is all they are.
    Honestly, until you follow your own advice how can you lecture us on not doing it?

    KENT

    I actually think I have more respect for you than most everyone else on this blog, but this last comment does not help you any.

    I really don’t care if you are critical. Criticism is good and leads to productive discussion. But you can be critical without being disrespectful, which is a distinction most people don’t seem to understand.
    So, criticize all you want, but as soon as you start mocking, that is when it becomes personally insulting, and that is inevitably the direction it goes in for most everyone here. Respect the belief, whether you agree with it or not, enough to not mock it. That is all I ask.

    Take your own comment for example: You were hurt and offended by a comment made by Anne. I don’t recall the context of it, and she may have meant it as a joke, but that doesn’t matter, as you were offended.
    Apply this same logic to us and our beliefs. You may not mean anything by it, but your comments can be offensive and demeaning. If you want others to be more guarded in their words, so as to avoid unintentional insult, than I would suggest you do the same.

  53. November 10, 2011 at 1:30 am

    Kent,

    When I posted the LDS scriptures about keeping the commandments “continually”, I wasn’t referring to Anne’s “personal” sins on this blog. It was a more “general” and “doctrinal” question in response to her saying: “I repent daily” which means in and of itself that she doesn’t keep the commandments “continually”.

    Note to other readers: Christians believe in daily repentance as well.

  54. 54 rechtglaubig
    November 10, 2011 at 7:48 am

    Shemtwater,

    Christ not only taught the same moral Laws given to Moses, but He clarified them and demonstrated how we are all inviolation of them, even those that outwardly followed them to the T.

  55. 55 rechtglaubig
    November 10, 2011 at 7:49 am

    Shematwater,

    Forgive me for mispelling your name. It is late and I have no way to edit my post.

  56. 56 shematwater
    November 10, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Actually, Christ raises the bar a lot higher than Moses did.

    Matthew 5
    38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (This is the Law of Moses)
    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (This is the Righteousness of Christ)

    Again
    43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (The Law of Moses)

    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (The righteousness of Christ).

    The Righteousness of Christ is a much higher standard than the Law of Moses.

    However, what I think Paul was more specifically talking about was the belief among the Jews, especially the Pharisees, that by doing the outwards ordinances, or the works of the law (the sacrifices and ceremonies) one saves oneself. Thus they believed that through these works was salvation. Paul is simply telling them that this is false, because if it were true than the grace of God would not be needed. Rather, it is through God’s grace to those who follow his righteousness (the moral law taught by Christ) that we are saved, if we have faith.
    Note that I believe the phrase “works of the law” refers to the ordinances of sacrifice and washings that are unique to the Law of Moses. I do not believe it refers to the moral laws that were given, as these were taught to all prophets, long before Moses.

  57. 57 rechtglaubig
    November 11, 2011 at 3:53 am

    Shematwater,

    Again, there is no difference. Christ didn’t raise the bar. The bar was always there. Pay close attention to Jesus’ answer when asked which commandment is the greatest. He quotes from Deuteronomy and cuts to the heart of every single commandment. Love for God and love for neighbor. Jesus beautifully sums up the Old Testament Law in two.

    ” 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22)

    Verse 40 is critical in understanding everything that Jesus taught in the New Testament. Time and time again – love for God, love for neighbor. He didn’t always say those exact words, but read what He taught with this in mind.

    In Romans 7 Paul calls the Law spiritual. Why does he call it spiritual and not physical? If it was physical we could appease God by doing physical things, but it is spiritual and has to do with the condition of our hearts toward God and neighbor. This is why Jesus is so critical of the Jews, who followed the commandments to the letter of the law, yet were hypocrites. God doesn’t look at our hands, He looks at our heart.

    “for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

    Now with this understanding, in Romans you can see what is meant in the Romans 3 quote, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Have I ever murdered anyone? No. But Jesus said anger is committing murder in my heart, which makes me guilty of breaking that commandment (thou shalt not kill). I have failed to love my neighbor as myself and in failing to do that, I have also failed to love God with all my strength and mind, since I broke His Holy Law. Just this one violation is enough to deserve an eternity in Hell or (Outer Darkness, if you will). Let alone the countless other times I have violated the spirit of God’s Law.

    But wait, Paul says, “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested. Righteousness that comes through “Faith”. Why Faith? Because Faith does not make the law void, it allows us to actually fulfill the law (Romans 3:31). Good works are the fruit of Christian Faith, a response to God applying His righteousness to us, not something we do for personal gain or anything that we achieve merit from.

    Shematwater, I know you have been around here a lot longer then I have, and you have probably seen this over and over again, but my prayer is that you understand and one day share in the same peace and gladness that I have and that we can one day meet each other in heaven as we spend eternity with God.

  58. 58 shematwater
    November 14, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    rechtglaubig

    Again, it is all a matter of interpretation.
    When Paul calls the Law Spiritual he is simply reinforcing the fact that it was given by God. Everything that comes from God is spiritual, but that which comes from man in temporal or carnal. The Law was spiritual because it came from God, and so the carnal nature of man is at odds with it.

    I know what Christ taught, but this is not the standard of the Law of Moses. It is the desired standard, yes, but not the required standard. It is much like school. It is desired that all students will receive an A, but those who receive a C still pass.
    More appropriately, it would be compared to the idea that before an A was a 92% or better, and anything less than a 70% was failing. Now the standard is changed to 90% is an A and 60% or higher passes. The desired standard is still 100%, but the required standard has been lowered.

    In a like manner, the Law of Moses, though desiring a higher standard, only required the lower (the 60%), while the Righteousness of Christ requires the higher, desired standard.

    This is seen in the comparisons he makes with the Law of Moses, as I have pointed out. Another great example is that of divorce. When asked “Why did Moses then command to give a awriting of bdivorcement, and to put her away?” what does Christ say? “Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.” (Matthew 19: 7-8) It is obvious that Moses allowed many things, as directed by God, that Christ taught against. He raised the standard.

    As to faith and works and all that, I do not believe that works are sufficient to save. A person can be baptized, confirmed, married in the temple and participate in all the ordinances. However, if he does it for his own gain it will not be sanctioned by the Holy Ghost, and thus it will not be binding in the world to come. All things must be done in faith, for in no other way can our actions please God and gain his approval.
    Now, I do believe that all men are capable of doing good, no matter what they believe, but without that faith their good works will not get them back to their Heavenly Father. I also believe that these works can inspire and create faith in those who have none, for this was the case of Naaman the Syrian. He had no faith until after he had performed the actions Elisha had given him, but once he had, and had witnessed the power of God, his faith became greater than many in Israel.


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