At the last General Conference, in one of his talks, President Henry B. Eyring of the First Presidency, talked about meeting an elderly man. After describing the meeting he remarks: “He was an example of the fully converted Latter-day Saints I meet often after they have given a life of dedicated service. They press on. President Marion G. Romney described it this way: ‘In one who is wholly converted, desire for things [contrary] to the gospel of Jesus Christ has actually died, and substituted therefor is a love of God with a fixed and controlling determination to keep his commandments.’” (Ensign, Nov, 2011, p. 70, emphasis added)
Note the two things I emphasized in that quote. First he says he meets such people often. In other words, according to him, a fully converted person is not that rare. And secondly, one of the main characteristics of who is wholly converted is that the “desire for things contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ has actually died”.
Really? Such a person never again has a sinful desire? Not one sniff of sinful anger or revenge? Not one self-centered or selfish yearning? Not one twinge of lust or greed? Not one moment of doubt or worry? No trace of apathy?
This is a condition not even claimed by biblical prophets. When the prophet Isaiah saw a vision of the Lord he exclaimed: “Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.” (Isaiah 6:5) This is something not even claimed by the Lord’s apostles. Paul lamented: “For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do.” (Romans 7:19). But President Eyring says he meets such people often!
There has been only one person who, at the time of his death, had no sinful desires. That person was Jesus. That is why his death was an acceptable sacrifice for sin. And that is why his death was a necessary sacrifice for sin. For absolutely everybody else continues to have sinful desires until the day of his or her death. And that is why whoever is saved is saved entirely on what Jesus has done and not, in any way, in what they do. To Jesus, and to Jesus alone, be the glory.
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Paul, even as a mature Christian and Apostle, still considered himself : “the worst of sinners”. He didn’t say: “I WAS the worst of sinners”, he said: “I AM the worst of sinners.” God used that fact to show the world just how “unlimited” God’s patience is.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 “Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners— of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.”
“desire for things contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ has actually died”.
If it is possible for man to overcome the desires of the natural sin nature, then there is certainly no need for a savior and there was no need for Jesus to be made sin in our place and take Gods wrath for any of us.
Here is what God has to say about that in His testimony, the Bible:
Isaiah 64:6
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ecclesiastes 7:20
There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.
Matthew 23:27
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.
God says we are all sinners, sin separates us from a Holy God because God abhors sin, sinners are subject to the wrath of God. The only way to escape the wrath of God is to recognize we are sinners, believe that Jesus became sin for us and suffered Gods wrath for us so that we by believing in the death, and resurection of Christ may be reconciled to God. Repent and believe. It is that simple.
Acts 2:36-39
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The LDS may able to fool each other, but God will not be fooled, He sees the hearts of men.
“‘In one who is wholly converted, desire for things [contrary] to the gospel of Jesus Christ has actually died”
1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
What strikes me as odd is that a mere man is in effect saying that he is to be able to see into the heart and know the thoughts of another. Even the OT prophets or NT Apostles do not make such presumptions …… as revealed by God:
1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.”
Revelation 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Genesis 6: 9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Job 1: 1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Here we have a biblical testimony that these two men were perfect, or had attained perfection in their lives, before they died. How did they do this? By the Grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, for in no other way can a man be made perfect.
Steph’s insistence that perfection in this life negates the need for a savior is a flawed argument, as it does not recognize this simple truth; that it is because of the savior that we are enabled to be perfect.
Based on these two declarations of perfection we can say positively that Christ was not the only man who, at the time of his death, had no sinful desire. What is true, however, is that Christ is the only man who lived his entire mortal life without ever experiencing a sinful desire, which is what made him capable of being the sacrifice that he was. Noah and Job, though they went to their final rest in a perfect state, having no desire for sin, had had such desires at some time in their lives, and had committed sin at some point, and so their perfection is not of the same caliber as Christ’s, and thus could not qualify them to be such a sacrifice.
In this same way no man is without sin, except Christ, for he is the only one whose entire life remained unspotted and untainted by sinful thought or deed. Any man claiming that he is without sin deceives himself, for he has sinned, and though he may never sin again in his life, the sin he has already committed will be a part of him forever, and thus he is not without sin.
As to discerning the thoughts and intents of others, it is only God that is capable of seeing the hearts of men, but he reveals this understanding to his ministers as they have need. After all, Paul showed forth his power of discerning thoughts when he witnessed to King Agrippa when he declared to him “I know that thou believest” (Acts 26: 27). How could he know that the King believed the prophets unless he had the power given him by God to discern the thoughts and intents of the King’s heart.
Returning the words of the LDS leaders, we notice that it is the desire to sin that has been removed from the person who is truly converted. It does not say that sin is removed, or that the person is made perfect. They simply state that they no longer have a desire for that which is contrary to the gospel. This is exactly what Paul is describing in his epistle to the Romans. Read in chapter 7, verses 18-23
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: FOR THE WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I DELIGHT IN THE LAW OF GOD after the inward man:
But I see ANOTHER LAW IN MY MEMBERS, WARRING AGAINST THE LAW OF MY MIND, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
As he says, his only desire and delight is in the gospel and the law of God, but his body is constantly at odds with this. He has no desire for that which is contrary to the gospel, but because of instinct and other effects on his person he is not always capable of acting within that desire.
He was truly converted, and had no more desire to sin, but that does not mean that he never sinned again.
Thank You.
Shem said: “Genesis 6: 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Job 1: 1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Here we have a biblical testimony that these two men were perfect, or had attained perfection in their lives, before they died. How did they do this? By the Grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, for in no other way can a man be made perfect.”
A man is righteous and perfect through grace and not through obedience to the law.
Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
You give two verses from scripture to serve your purpose while leaving other scriptures out.
Martin Luther once said this…
“The devil, too, can quote Scripture and deceive men with it. But his use of Scripture is defective. He does not quote it completely but only so much of it as serves his purpose. The rest he silently omits.” ~ Martin Luther
Shem, you and I and everyone here want to be careful not to fall into the devil’s trap. Let me give you the verses you left out…
Job 7:21 Job said: ” Why do you not pardon my offenses and forgive my sins?”
Genesis 9:20-21 “Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20 “There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.”
Hebrews 7:27 “Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people.”
1 John 1:8-9 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
Wrong emphasis Shem … Paul was emphasizing just the opposite. Paul was admitting that “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing”
Paul is admitting what you are attempting to explain away … Paul reveals that the desire to sin is just as great as to not to. In fact Paul revealed that sinful desires are so prevalent that “the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (verse 19).
Acts 26: 27 does not say that Paul who “searches the heart”. There is no reason to think that Paul came to know that about King Aggippa by any normal means which humans do that doesn’t require the means by which only God has the power to do …. read the mind and hearts
Therefore there are two falsehoods being told:
1) A person admitting that he\she can “fully” dissolve themself of sinful desires to be “fully converted”
2) A person claiming they can see it in another mind \ heart.
JBR
It is difficult to discuss with you when you ignore everything I said.
I said “it is only God that is capable of seeing the hearts of men, but he reveals this understanding to his ministers as they have need.”
Clearly I am not giving the credit of discerning the hearts of men to anyone one other than God, and your attempt to make my words say anything else shows your own deception. I have merely stated that God, who can discern the hearts of men, reveals what is in their heart to his servants, as is shown in this account of Paul. As such, for God’s appointed ministers in this day to display the same power of discernment, as given them by God, is perfectly reasonable.
Your error is in assuming that President Eyring was claiming the power for himself, which he never did.
The only falsehood being told in this case is your twisted interpretation of both his and my own words.
As to dissolving sinful desire, read Paul again. he is saying that in his flesh, or in his mortal body, there is no good thing. He is referring to the instincts and passions that are natural in a physical body, which drive men to sin. He is not speaking about spiritual or mental desires, but physical drives and instincts.
His only desire is to do good, but the instincts of mortal life are constantly at war with this desire. This is the emphasis. If his emphasis was on the impossibility of even desiring good why would he go into the comparisons, or even claim a desire for good? It makes no sense. The point you claim would have been made better by simply leaving it at the simple statement that you quote. But he doesn’t leave it at this. He continues and the rest of the whole thing is focused on his desires for righteousness, but his inability to fulfill those desires because of the mortal state he is in.
ECHO
I leave out nothing, nor do I ignore anything. I said the Bible proclaims these men to be perfect, not that they themselves claimed such. Such a claim would constitute pride, and thus they would not be truly perfect, for they would be denying their own sin, and thus deceiving themselves as John states.
Now, I know all the verses you site, and none of them changes anything. If you care to actually read what I said (as I assume you haven’t, since most of it seems to be ignored) I stated quite clearly that no man except Jesus lived a life completely free of Sin, and thus all men have sinned. I have never denied this, nor does the bible or any scripture teach otherwise, and nor do the leaders of the LDS church. However, just because we have all sinned this does not mean that we must continue in sin. We have the power, through the Atonement, to cleave unto righteousness and forsake sin. Does this mean we will never again sin? Maybe, but that is not a guarantee.
Even though Job is proclaimed to be perfect at the beginning of the book we read of God chastising him later for speaking rash words without thought. In his suffering he pleaded to understand and spoke some words that he should not have said, and thus sinned. But he was still perfect, in that his desire was only for righteousness and his mistake was to speak without understanding. He eschewed evil and shunned it whenever he saw it, and that made him perfect. It did not make him perfect in the same sense as Christ, who never once sinned from the time of his birth to the time of his death. But it made him perfect in the sense that he had a perfect desire to follow Christ and shunned all things contrary to his will.
Now, none of the quotes you give contradict this.
Galatians speaks to the Law of Moses, a law that could not bring Salvation. If such was possible than there would have been no need for Christ. Even with the Higher Law given by Christ salvation is not possible without the atonement. But then we never denied this.
I am in full agreement with Ecclesiastes in that all sin. However, notice that it refers to men as being righteous (in the KJV it says just men). There are righteous men who eschew evil and whose only desire is for good, but even they make mistakes.
All the other verses can be similarly explained.
The problem you have is that you assume that the word Perfect has to refer to sinlessness, when it can truly have countless meanings, depending on the context in which it is used.
Martin Luther had this to say…
“We human beings have all made ourselves sons of God, nay, we want to be God himself. Adam began this sin in paradise; for he allowed the old serpent, the devil, to arouse him. He was not satisfied to be a fine creature of God, created in the image of God; he did not want to remain man; he wanted to be God too and to know good and evil. When he followed the old serpent and wanted to be equal to God, he became a DEVIL.”
Luther also said: “This lust for divinity is the SIN SUPREME”
This is the supreme sin because from this one sin, man is entirely motivated to do nothing other than to make himself a God. And since this is his sole selfish motivation, man can do nothing but sin. Nothing but sin flows from the desire to become a God. That is the depravity of all mankind. ALL SIN is rooted in the one single desire to become a God, to be our own God. All the suffering, everything bad in this world all stems from this one SUPREME SIN. It’s all about ME, ME, ME.
Ephesians 2:3 “we were by nature objects of wrath”
Hebrrew 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God”
This one SUPREME SIN is the very foundation of Mormonism and is in fact “celebrated” in Mormonism. All the sin in the world stems from this one sin. Nothing but sin comes from a person rooted in this foundation. This is what makes man an enemy of God. Ephesians 2:3 “we were by nature objects of wrath”
ECHO
Martin Luther was a great man, but he was not always correct in his thought.
The Bible is filled with the fact that we are the sons of God, and that we can become like him, or a god ourselves. The supreme sin is no in a desire to become like God, but to usurp God, to try and become a law unto ourselves apart from his divine authority. That is the supreme sin, and the sin for which there is no forgiveness.
However, in Acts Paul confirms that we are the offspring of God (7: 28-29), meaning that we are his children, which is again confirmed in Hebrews 12: 9 when he refers to God as the Father of Spirits.
We know from the writings of Paul that we are to be joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8: 17); notice that this is not “of” but “with” indicating that we inherit the exact same thing that Jesus inherited. And that is the glory of the Father, or godhood, which he states in 2 Corinthians 3: 18, for we shall be in the same image as the Father, from glory to glory.
We also read in the writings of John that we will be like Christ, for John testifies that “we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” Then in his Revelation John is told that the faithful will sit with Christ in his throne, even as he sits on his Father’s throne (Revelation 3: 21). We will be on the throne, and thus will be like Christ, or will be gods.
Both Paul and John testify to the fact that we have divine potential and can become like our Father, or become gods. To acknowledge this is not sin; to desire this ultimate gift of God is not sin. The sin comes in seeking such outside the proscribed manner in which God has set for such to be attained. It is when we seek to be above God, and seek to counsel him that we commit the supreme sin.
(Question: Why did you change the subject?)
ECHO
Just so you know: Martin Luther rejected the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation as not being real scripture. He called the Epistle of James and “Epistle of Straw” claiming it had little to do with Christ and his saving work, and said the he saw no evidence of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Revelation.
He also didn’t care too much for the book of Ester in the Old Testament.
Beside rejecting these books he also purposely changed the wording of Romans 3: 28, adding in the word “alone,” justifying himself by saying that it was the original intend ans was needed for the German people to understand, thus dismissing the fact that it does not appear in any previous translation of transcript of any language.
As I said, Martin Luther was a great man, and he did an important work which God called him to do. But that does not mean that everything he said was true and accurate.
Shem said: “The supreme sin is no in a desire to become like God, but to usurp God, to try and become a law unto ourselves apart from his divine authority. That is the supreme sin, and the sin for which there is no forgiveness.”
Satan is a liar and a deceiver. When he says: “you can become like God” he means: “You can become a God”
To become “like” God, biblically speaking, means to become like God in the sense of loving God and our neighbor unselfishly.
Satan’s temptation here is that we become like God in the sense of becoming a law unto ourselves. See the deception there? He wants us to become LIKE God in the sense of becoming a God wherein we decide for ourselves what is good and what is evil.
That is precisely the sin to which you said: “to try and become a law unto ourselves apart from his divine authority” RED FLAGS! Let me repeat that for you. RED FLAGS!
God’s “divine authority” said: “DO NOT EAT or YOU SHALL SURELY DIE”
Adam and Eve said …”NO!” …to God’s divine authority. HUGE RED FLAGS! Adam and Eve have now become exactly what you said: “a law unto themselves apart from his divine authority!”
And Mormons “celebrate” this sin of saying NO to God! Saying no to God is rebellion against God! Isn’t that just the very concept right there that Mormons decide for themselves what is good and what is evil even in complete contradiction to what God had said! RED FLAGS! (Type in: Celebrate Eve’s act at http://www.lds.org)
GOD said NO, meaning it is evil, Mormons say it was good! They have become a God unto themselves, choosing for themselves what is good and what is evil despite what God has to say on the matter. Mormons have rejected divine authority and celebrate that fact. HUGE RED FLAGS!
Isn’t this the whole problem with the world today! Everybody thinks they are a God and can do what they want and everyone around them is there to serve them and make them happy. It’s all about me, me, me. And in Mormonism, this is celebrated! Mormon’s serve others in order to become a God and be exalted. That’s all about me, me, me.
Once again Shem, Martin Luther once said this…
“The devil, too, can quote Scripture and deceive men with it. But his use of Scripture is defective. He does not quote it completely but only so much of it as serves his purpose. The rest he silently omits.” ~ Martin Luther
Shem, you and I and everyone here want to be careful not to fall into the devil’s trap. Let me give you the verses you left out once again…
Shem said: “However, in Acts Paul confirms that we are the offspring of God (7: 28-29), meaning that we are his children, which is again confirmed in Hebrews 12: 9 when he refers to God as the Father of Spirits.
We know from the writings of Paul that we are to be joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8: 17); notice that this is not “of” but “with” indicating that we inherit the exact same thing that Jesus inherited. And that is the glory of the Father, or godhood, which he states in 2 Corinthians 3: 18, for we shall be in the same image as the Father, from glory to glory.
We also read in the writings of John that we will be like Christ, for John testifies that “we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” Then in his Revelation John is told that the faithful will sit with Christ in his throne, even as he sits on his Father’s throne (Revelation 3: 21). We will be on the throne, and thus will be like Christ, or will be gods.”
Adam and Eve and all of us are God’s offspring. However Adam and Eve, through this one Supreme sin, sold us to the devil to be his children, prisoners and slaves. Hence why we must be born again. Jesus bought us back with his blood shed on the cross and freed us from the slavery to the devil.
John 8:44 “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
Notice the reference to: “he was a murderer from the beginning” that is a reference to the serpent in Eden, the sin to which Adam and Eve fell when they said: “NO” to God and “YES” to the liar and FATHER of LIE’s. Now since we are all children of Adam and Eve, all of us are born children of the LIAR and the FATHER of LIE’s.
Romans 7:14 “sold as a slave to sin.”
John 8:34-36 “. Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
Ephesians 1:5 “he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—“
Romans 8:23 “Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.”
Mathew 20:28 “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
ran•som = A sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner. (google)
Just so you know, you haven’t done your homework properly on Martin Luther. There are great explanations for all of this, but once again…
Martin Luther once said this…
“The devil, too, can quote Scripture and deceive men with it. But his use of Scripture is defective. He does not quote it completely but only so much of it as serves his purpose. The rest he silently omits.” ~ Martin Luther
And I suppose that goes for other truth’s as well. Even truth’s about Martin Luther. The Devil loves to quote only so much of what Martin Luther said and he silently omits the rest.
Hello Shematwater,
“Beside rejecting these books he also purposely changed the wording of Romans 3: 28, adding in the word “alone,” justifying himself by saying that it was the original intend ans was needed for the German people to understand, thus dismissing the fact that it does not appear in any previous translation of transcript of any language.”
Luther did not “reject” the above mentioned books. He did question the authorship of some books and he did question canonicity of some because some of the Early Church Fathers questioned these same things. Luther was not the first. Regardless, he still included the books in his German translations and quoted heavily from all of them. As for the famous “epistle of straw” comment. If you read the entire context of the quote you will see that he is praising John’s Gospel, Peter’s, and Paul’s epistles and he makes the statement when he contrasts the books. FYI after 1522 Luther removed this statement.
As for Luther adding the word “alone” in Romans 3:28, the KJV adds words too. Translating is a funny thing. Every language has its quirks and grammar rules. You sometimes have to add words, otherwise we would be left with “Therefore conclude man justified faith without deeds law”. In Greek they change the forms of these words, like say, with case endings, in English we don’t use them as much and instead have extra words we have to insert to serve the same grammatical purpose. Luther was translating to German and not only was it was correct German grammar, but Paul’s context supports it. (“It is the nature of the German tongue to add “allein” in order that “nicht” or “kein” may be clearer and more complete” – Luther)
Sorry I can’t edit my post. I had the last quote as a place holder and accidentally posted it. The quote should read:
“But it is the nature of our language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed, the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word “not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no money, but only (allein) grain”; “I have only eaten and not yet drunk”; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a vast number of such everyday cases.
In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German tongue to add “allein” in order that “nicht” or “kein” may be clearer and more complete. To be sure, I can also say “The farmer brings grain and no (kein) money”, but the words “kein money” do not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, “the farmer brings allein grain and kein money.” Here the word “allein” helps the word “kein” so much that it becomes a clear and complete German expression”
You also alleged that faith alone was never translated in any other Bibles. This is not the case. Another German Bible, the Nuremburg Bible did it 1483, the year Luther was born.
That is the problem with the LDS Church that it seems with them it isn’t all about Jesus but the truth is Christianity is all about Jesus and really nothing else and if it isn’t all about Jesus, then it is about nothing at all.
That is why I keep pushing that Jesus is the only way to Heavenly Father, Jesus only completely and there is no other, because if he it isn’t the only way to Heavenly Father completely, then He is made out to be a fraud and a liar and there is no hope for any of us.
It is a lie that anyone else in any way has anything to do with it, you, Joseph Smith, or I. Who is the father of lies? The devil of course and I don’t listen to him.
So, again it may seem that I am being like a broken record saying the same thing over and over again but I will keep saying it until the record gets fixed.
Shem said: “and the sin for which there is no forgiveness.”
That’s true. If you DIE in this sin, there is NO forgiveness for you because it IS the sin of unbelief. The LDS Church is built upon this sin of unbelief as I have shown. It is this Supreme Sin. Unbelief is rewarded with zero forgiveness. That reward is this…
Revelation 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving,… and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
And that is the home of the devil who is the Father of the unbelieving.
Wake up Shem! We love you are are very concerned about you but there comes a time to let you go. There comes a time when it becomes pointless to speak to someone who refuses to listen.
KENT
You have not answered my question: If I reject the testimony of Paul and John and Peter, can I still be saved?
rechtglaubig
I may have had some errors in my information, and I apologize for them. Concerning the “Epistle of Straw” comment, the context does not make it all that much better. Even the fact that he later retracted it does not change the fact that he said it.
I never once tried to deny how great a man he was, and I am grateful to him for all his work. My only point is that he is not an authoritative source, so please don’t lecture me when I choose not to agree with him.
(Actually, I would say his greatness is more than any non-LDS could recognize. Not to divert the topic, but he was among those who appeared to Wilford Woodruff in the Temple demanding his work be done for him, so as far as I am concerned and error he made in life is a mute point, as he is now in complete agreement with the truth of the gospel as taught by Christ through the LDS church.)
ECHO
The devil can quote scripture for his own purpose, so why do you insist on helping him by spreading his lies.
Note: It is not, nor has it ever been part of the LDS doctrine that anyone gets to decide what is right and what is wrong. The sheer stupidity of these statements shows such a lack of understanding in you that I find it difficult to continue this discussion.
You state: “He wants us to become LIKE God in the sense of becoming a God wherein we decide for ourselves what is good and what is evil.”
No God, not even our Father in Heaven, chooses for himself what is good and what is evil. Good and evil simply are, and what makes God God is that fact that he chooses the good and rejects the evil. For us to become gods does not separate us from the authority of our Father, nor can we choose what is good and evil.
We will never be greater, or even equal to our Father in heaven. We can become gods, but he will always be our God, which is why he is described as a God of gods. We will always be under his authority. It is a fool who thinks that being a god is free slip to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and only a fool would believe such a doctrine.
You also make the personal judgment of “Mormon’s serve others in order to become a God and be exalted. That’s all about me, me, me.” Now who is claiming to know the hearts and intents of others?
While I will admit that are members who have this motivation, they are not a majority, and they will find that they have missed the mark and will loose that reward. It is those who serve God because they love him, and would serve regardless of the reward, that will be exalted and become gods. This is the doctrine of the church, that we serve and love God, not for our own glory, but for his; and it is a liar who claims otherwise.
Shem said, “You have not answered my question: If I reject the testimony of Paul and John and Peter, can I still be saved?”
What Jesus did on the cross is what saves us and nothing else so, yes, it is all about Jesus but, if we look at the context of the whole body of the testimonies of Peter, John, and Paul, they agree with the fact that Jesus is the only way to God the Father.
But what we mean by saved is not just living in the afterlife with a chance to maybe, someday, get to be with Heavenly Father for the rest of eternity but that it means we can know now, today, by believing in who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. We are saved by believing it in our hearts and confessing it to other people.
The following is the gospel that Paul was given and it is the only gospel there is.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures
Romans 10:1-13
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 4 FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. 10 FOR WITH THE HEART ONE BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Mormons talk about being obedient but if is about having to follow what they call the gospel ordinances it is actually being disobedient because they are “seeking to establish their own righteousness” by what they do and it isn’t about what Jesus did for all of us, “for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Jesus Christ dying on the cross in our place, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, and rising on the third day is the only way as it is either all about following the law completely (gospel oridinances) or it is about believing in who Jesus is and what He did completely.
One more thing, saved means being in what Mormons would call the Celestial Kingdom where God the Father is and the only other option is being in what they call outer darkess (Hell). There is no Terriestrial or Telestial kingdoms.
Again, Jesus is the only way to Heavenly Father.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
And believing in Jesus is the only work there is but it isn’t work on our part as He already did it for us on the cross.
John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
KENT
You have still not actually answered the question. You did a great job of evading it, but never actually answered it.
Can we reject the testimony of Paul, Peter, or John (or any other prophet) and still gain salvation?
I am not asking what these people testify to (though you have given this) nor am I asking what you consider salvation to be (which you also explain). I am simply asking if we can reject any of these prophets and still be saved. It is a simple question that can be answered with a simple Yes or No.
As to us establishing our righteousness, this is a common accusation, but it is still false, and is bread by those who are ignorant concerning our doctrine, as well as what is meant by establishing your own righteousness.
To obey God is not to establish my righteousness, but to establish God’s, for it is his command. If I were to seek to establish my righteousness I would give my own commands and declare that following them is the right path, but would ignore God’s commands. This is not what we teach or what we believe and practice.
An Analogy: A King sends his servants to work in the vineyard, giving his instructions on how to tend the trees and harvest the fruit. One servant goes and does as he is instructed, bring the fruit to his master’s store house. Another decides to harvest fruit that is not yet ripe (against orders) and tries to store them in his own room, claiming them as his.
Which of the servants has established the King’s authority and works, and which has established his own?
In other words, to establish the righteousness of God is to do the righteousness of God. To establish your own righteousness is to do what you declare to be righteous.
And Note: Our salvation is 100% dependent on Christ and his Atonement. Salvation is impossible without his grace and mercy, and the Church has never denied this. However, our salvation is also 100% dependent on our obedience, for it is through our choices that God has declared he will judge us.