24
Feb
12

2 Nephi 25:23

One passage that will be referred to this coming Sunday in Gospel Doctrine Class will be 2 Nephi 25:23: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”  In the last couple of years I can’t count how many Mormons have tried to tell me that this passage doesn’t teach that salvation is based on grace and works.  They make that claim even though official church manuals say otherwise.  For example, True to the Faith states:  “The phrase, ‘after all you can’ teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fullness of the Lord’s grace and be made worthy to dwell with Him” (p. 77)

Following are the ways that this passage has been referenced in recent General Conferences.  I will let them answer the question:  Does Mormonism teach that human effort is required for salvation?  By the way, a website that enables you to easily see how LDS Scriptures is referenced in General Conference is http://scriptures.byu.edu.

D. Todd Christofferson, Oct. 2011:  “Second, repentance means striving to change. It would mock the Savior’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross for us to expect that He should transform us into angelic beings with no real effort on our part. Rather, we seek His grace to complement and reward our most diligent efforts (see 2 Nephi 25:23). Perhaps as much as praying for mercy, we should pray for time and opportunity to work and strive and overcome. Surely the Lord smiles upon one who desires to come to judgment worthily, who resolutely labors day by day to replace weakness with strength. Real repentance, real change may require repeated attempts, but there is something refining and holy in such striving. Divine forgiveness and healing flow quite naturally to such a soul, for indeed “virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; [and] mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own” (D&C 88:40).”

Dallin H. Oaks, Oct. 2010;  “Because of what He accomplished by His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ has the power to prescribe the conditions we must fulfill to qualify for the blessings of His Atonement. That is why we have commandments and ordinances. That is why we make covenants. That is how we qualify for the promised blessings. They all come through the mercy and grace of the Holy One of Israel, “after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).”

LDS General Conference  2009  October  Saturday Afternoon  Jorge F. Zeballos:  “Salvation and eternal life would not be possible if it were not for the Atonement, brought about by our Savior, to whom we owe everything. But in order for these supreme blessings to be effective in our lives, we should first do our part, “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”7 Let us with faith, enthusiasm, dedication, responsibility, and love do all that is within our reach, and we will be doing all that is possible to achieve the impossible—that is, to achieve what for the human mind is impossible but with the divine intervention of our loving Father and the infinite sacrifice brought about by our Savior becomes the greatest gift, the most glorious of realities, to live forever with God and with our families.”

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90 Responses to “2 Nephi 25:23”


  1. 1 joshtried
    February 24, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Here is truly a question of understanding… IF you believe Christ, you WILL change and do good works. If you have not done good works Because of your love of Christ and accepting him as your savior, then you will not enter into the kingdom of god, because you have not accepted Christ.

    IF i were to accept Christ at this very instance, AND then immediately turn around and murder someone, would i go to heaven? No, no i would not. why? because i did not accept the will and teachings of Christ in my heart, or i would not have murdered.
    When Christ was speaking to the prostitute, he said (again with my paraphrasing) Go your way and sin no more. he did not say carry on life as it has always been, cause that is alright… He said cut the crap and start acting appropriately, if you want to return home.

    To do Good works alone is NOT sufficient to save anyone of us and i do quote here… : We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    IF you have faith in Christ, you WILL do good works. Correct???
    if you do good works, you have faith in Christ? no, not necessarily. I know many people of just about every creed in the world. not every one of them that did “good” was “christian” (A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings).

    I think a common misconception here is that after accepting Christ, we get to stop doing our part. How anyone can think this correct, i have no idea. now, IF i was on my death bed, and accepted Christ with my last dying breath, i think that would qualify my receiving eternal life… but only because i could not show my true acceptance with the remainder of my life.

    Matthew 7:16-19
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth a good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is bhewn down, and cast into the fire.

    I would ask here what fruits we see from LDS people.. from what i see:
    They teach families to be kind to one another,
    They teach kids “the gospel” and send them on missions so that everyone in the world may hear the exquisite news of Christ
    The teach husbands and wives to not commit adultery (please, i understand polygamy was in the past… it is not any more. 1st understand what polygamy is, and 2nd just let this die… it is not practiced any more)
    They teach children to get an education, so that they can contribute to society
    They help those that are destitute by providing food and clothing
    They help all manner of disaster victims throughout the world.
    They helped people understand that Tobacco was bad before mainstream media said it was bad.
    They helped people understand that alcohol is bad (though Daniel? did this first.. we try and clarify this truth) (also, by bad for alcohol, many people do not understand their limits. as such, a more general message is taught. It is my understand that merely drinking alcohol will not keep us from the whole of our duties. ABUSING alcohol will.)
    They teach to love and regularly visit your neighbors, and help them to grow in understand of God.
    They teach to obey the laws of our government, to “give unto Cesear that which is Cesear’s” (again with the paraphrasing)
    They teach to be a moral compass (this is a personal choice of everyone, their choice is not a reflection of teaching – refer to Cain and Able for a perfect example of this…….)
    We teach to have a well balanced diet (this was taught in 1833!!!!!!!)

    IF there are evil fruits, please provide them so that this conversation can bring to light the perception of evil. (and no, we do not bring people to an “evil Jesus”, BUT if you feel we do, please provide at least your understand of what makes “our Jesus” evil, for I see him as Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary… and so on.) also, if any of the above teachings are evil, please elaborate on how/why you feel they are

  2. 2 markcares
    February 24, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    Hi Josh:
    How does your explanation fit with “after” in “after all we can do”?

  3. February 24, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Josh, love your list of good fruit . Many non-LDS would agree with them. I think Eph. 2:8-10 is
    clear in explaining where good works fit in the picture concerning how eternal life is received , it’s by
    faith . Then the good works follow .

  4. 4 TJayT
    February 24, 2012 at 11:19 pm

    Great post Josh.

    I discussed this topic ad nauseam just a few posts ago, so I won’t bore everyone with my views again.

  5. February 25, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Grace comes first, then good works…

    Romans 5:1-2 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

    Romans 6:14 “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

    1 Corinthians 15:10 “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.”

    2 Corinthians 4:15 “All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people **may cause** thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.”

    2 Corinthians 9:14 “And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.”

    1 Timothy 1:14 “The grace of our Lord **was** poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.”

  6. February 25, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Mark,

    Thanks for the post. I find it interesting how many of my LDS friends seem to misunderstand the meaning of this passage as interpreted by the prophets of the Church, even going so far as to deny the importance of “total repentance” as a requirement to obtain eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom.
    More than once, I have heard an appeal that Heavenly Father accepts mere attempts at keeping the law and that what he seeks is an heart that genuinely desires to do what is right. Yet this is not what appears to be taught by the LDS prophets. “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.” (“Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith”, page 73)
    In “Answers to Gospel Questions” Volume 3, pages 26-27, President Joseph Fielding Smith clarifies that, “…each who enters the kingdom must of his own free will accept all of the laws and be obedient to them, finding himself in complete accord with all. Unless a man can abide strictly in complete accord, he cannot enter there [Celestial Kingdom]… if there is one divine law that he does not keep he is barred from participating in the kingdom, and figuratively guilty of all, since he is denied all. Every law must be obeyed, and no member of the Church can have a place there unless he is in full accord.”
    And in “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 203, President Spencer Kimball explains that, “Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. A reforming adulterer who drinks or curses is not repentant. The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life.”
    While I will not argue that the LDS faith promotes a “works only” avenue to Eternal Life, it is clear that keeping all of the Law, without the exception of any command is a requirement. The Church teaches that this is a lifelong endeavor and (as those who have read “The Miracle of Forgiveness” or 1 Nephi 10:21 and 15:34 must agree) nothing short of complete and total obedience is acceptable.

  7. February 25, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    Echo, those verses are beautiful . I think the phrase ” after all we can do ” [ 2N 25:23 ] puts
    kind of a guilt trip on many Mormons because they know deep down in their hearts that there is
    always more work they could have squeezed into their day in order to sufficiently “worthy” . At least
    this seems to be a theme in the testimonies of former Mormons , never any peace as to their standing
    with God etc . I think the verse in 2 N 25:23 would be just find without the last part . That’s why Eph 2:8-9
    is so powerful . It goes great with the verses you shared especially the ones from Rom . chap. 5 and 6 .

  8. February 25, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Wyomingwilly,

    I totally agree with you. The teaching of being “saved by grace after all we can do” ultimately in the end either leads to pride or despair.

    God wants us to have “peace”, not pride or despair.

  9. February 25, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    It’s so sad that Mormons have to “secure complete forgiveness”…

    “Repentance is the way provided for us to become free from our sins and receive forgiveness for them… To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom… First, one repents. Having gained that ground he then must live the commandments of the Lord to retain his vantage point. This is necessary to secure complete forgiveness.” (http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng)

    In Christianity, JESUS has secured our complete forgiveness already. This is why I keep saying that in reality, Mormons are their own Savior from sin, Jesus is not their Savior.

  10. February 26, 2012 at 12:45 am

    Echo,

    It is very sad. There are so many (as you noted) passages that provide that assurance that He has done everything for us. I pray that their hearts be opened to the truth. I think I see now, why in so many places in scripture Jesus says “He who has ears let him hear.” I’m so grateful for the faith He has given me.

    Thanks be to God, through my Lord Jesus Christ!

  11. February 26, 2012 at 1:10 am

    Amen bereandave!

    We have been filled to overflowing with the Riches of God’s grace in the full and free forgiveness we KNOW we already have. WE never have the worry or fear that comes with securing one’s own forgiveness. Jesus has secured our forgiveness for us! We are sure and certain. Amen!

  12. 12 Kent
    February 26, 2012 at 4:40 am

    “We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom…”

    Then Joseph Smith wasn’t truly repentant as he not only drank alchohol the day before he died, he had a bar in his own home, and he even had a liquor license to sell it from his home which is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.

    History of the Church, vol. 6, pg. 111, “Section 1 – “Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor [Joseph Smith] of the city is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.”
    .

    One would think that the person who must gives us a passport to enter the mansions where God is would be held to a higher standard than everyone else not to a lower standard.

    Ironic that if, say, someone named Joseph Jones tried to get a temple recommend from his bishop and he said he drank liquor and that he had a license to sell it from his home he would be denied but not Joseph Smith?

  13. 13 joshtried
    February 26, 2012 at 5:35 am

    sorry for the late replies here.. somehow this blog didnt update, but the other did. so, i begin here:

    As to the repentance part of it, i TRY and live this every day, and i will explain what i mean.

    If you come to God, and, and say i am sorry that i killed this person. God says “forgiven”
    Then you come to God, and say I am sorry but i killed this other person 2 days later… God may still say “forgiven”
    Now its the 3rd time… Did you really mean that you were sorry the first time, or were you just “trying” to get into heaven?
    If you are truly repentant, you will not commit such act again. if your are not truly repentant, well, i honestly dont know “100%” how that works out… i dont not have biblical reference for this but assume that if you dont have the “broken heart and contrite spirit” that you arent doing what Christ asked, and therefore are not worthy of his salvation.

    “After all that we can do” means we must continue to live our lives worthy of said redemption.
    We cannot take Christ’s name, and be baptized, and then run off and do whatever we want, and be held completely unaccountable. To do so would be pretty blasphemous (see works reference/examples above)

    Now, i have an idea of the question i will get next, so i will say this, there is ONE COMPLETELY UNFORGIVABLE sin. it is mentioned 2 times that i remember off the top of my head, basically in succession.

    IF we were to partake of this sin AFTER being baptized and receiving Christ, then we would not go to heaven.

    So, “after all that we can do” by at minimum not committing this sin, THEN we are worthy.

  14. 14 joshtried
    February 26, 2012 at 6:04 am

    Echo: i completely agree with this:
    “Grace comes first, then good works…” though see above… Grace is immediate, BUT CAN BE LOST

    Acgheen: The below quote you used is referencing different levels of heaven, not heaven itself if you research (revelations maybe? i honestly do not remember where… ) you will find mention of the terrestrial, telestial and celestial kingdoms.
    “President Joseph Fielding Smith clarifies that, “…each who enters the kingdom must of his own free will accept all of the laws and be obedient to them, finding himself in complete accord with all. Unless a man can abide strictly in complete accord, he cannot enter there [Celestial Kingdom]… if there is one divine law that he does not keep he is barred from participating in the kingdom, and figuratively guilty of all, since he is denied all. Every law must be obeyed, and no member of the Church can have a place there unless he is in full accord.”

    also, thank you for this recognition:
    “While I will not argue that the LDS faith promotes a “works only” avenue to Eternal Life”
    I am glad at least one person understands that now. As long as this is recognized i am good. You can believe i am working way to hard, and i can think you are not working hard enough (playful here.. not a stab at you)

    Echo: to this
    “I totally agree with you. The teaching of being “saved by grace after all we can do” ultimately in the end either leads to pride or despair.”
    I direct you to my above post and offer to you that i am neither prideful nor in total despair, for i know that the only way that i can overcome my trials daily is through the strength the grace of God gives me. my flesh (carnal man) is the enemy, and i openly recognize this

    Kent: as was pointed out somewhere else, the “word of wisdom” was not yet in effect. (if you look up when it came into effect and when Joseph died, you will see what i am talking about). Though I will openly admit that Daniel had already stated strong drink was bad (if i have my stories straight), though i would also like there to be understood that Christ turned water into wine as well… (and NO, this was not grape juice, it was wine….). so, either wine is good for all, or wine is good for none..
    the reason i like to think of alcohol being added to the word of wisdom is this (i dont not verify this is taught in church doctrine, this is purely my rationale here, please take it as such): people can not hold their liquor… and people get mad when others are aloud to do something they are not.. IF i had a drinking problem, and was beating my wife, and my (pastor/bishop/ whoever ) comes to me and says i need to stop… the first words out of my (carnal) mouth would be “well why does Kent get to enjoy a drink???”
    I know of at least one bishop that did drink alcohol, and still managed to hold their position. Even Medical science has proven that CERTAIN alcohol is good in PROPER amounts (maybe this was the case of the bishop that i knew, i did not ask as many questions then, as i do now). in any case, if “i” were beating my wife, “because of the alcohol” then NONE is acceptable, because even a little will eventually wind up leading to more abuse.

  15. 15 joshtried
    February 26, 2012 at 6:31 am

    Link to unforgivable sin: 3 references in bible, 3 in BoM
    http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/unpardonable-sin?lang=eng

    just want to quote ONE real quick..
    If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26

  16. 16 Kent
    February 26, 2012 at 9:51 am

    joshtried, the point whilr we would all agree that abuse of alchohol which would include getting intoxicated at all even if it doesn’t involve beatng one’s spouse, is wrong and it is a sin, drinking, say a glass a wine with one’s dinner is not wrong and there are strong indications that even Jesus Christ Himself was known to do just that.

    But would someone named Jesus Garcia, as Jesus is a common name among Mexican and other Latin American countries and probably Spain as well, be denied a temple recommend if he admitted to doing so to his bishop which isn’t fair if Jesus Christ Himself did so?

    But especially if Garcia (or Joseph Jones) had admitted that he had a bar in his house and that he had a license to sell liquor to other people as Joseph Smith did that it is very likely that he would never get into the temple and have a chance to gain eternal life.

    My main point in bringing this up again, as yes I am aware that Mormons say the Word of Wisdom was not in effect yet when Smith died, is to show that it is not what we do that gives us the right to eternal life but belief in who Jesus is and what Jesus did for us on the cross to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves, is what gives us eternal life. Where saved= enternal life and not just that we live in the afterlife with a chance to gain eternal life.

    But don’t you see a contradiction that even though your church says “We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom” that Smith or even Jesus Himself were not held to that standard when everyone since then is held to that standard?

    That is the problem with so called continuing revelation on important issues as standards change which indicates that they are really coming from man and not from God. Real standards from the true word of God, the Bible, don’t change and don’t ever need to be updated.

  17. 17 Joshtried
    February 26, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Kent,
    Unless I am mistaken, you seem to be trying to pass judgement on Joseph, which should be the Lords to make.
    Second, wine is approved for use in sacrament (personal thought: maybe this was josephs use the day before his murder)
    Third, Moses was kept from the land of promise for being disobedient.. Perhaps Joseph was disobedient.. But just as Moses was still a prophet, so was Joseph.

  18. February 26, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    Joshtried said: “I direct you to my above post and offer to you that i am neither prideful nor in total despair, for i know that the only way that i can overcome my trials daily is through the strength the grace of God gives me. my flesh (carnal man) is the enemy, and i openly recognize this”

    Are you confident that you are doing all you can do or are you unsure?

  19. February 26, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    Kent, The LDS Church teaches an “open cannon”, ie., that through continuing revelation, Heavenly Father may reveal and continue to reveal his will to his followers on earth through his chosen prophets. These revelations may involve the elimination of practices previously condoned or the establishment of new commandments. Joseph Smith revealed the “Word of Wisdom” to the LDS people in 1833. According to Brigham Young, Doctrine and Covenants 89 was delivered to help cope with the (at times) unsanitary conditions that existed during LDS meetings and was to be accepted as advice rather than as a commandment. It was not until 1902 that President Joseph F. Smith established adherence to the “Word of Wisdom” as a requirement for obtaining Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. The result is that its edicts would have been binding upon all Church members after 1902, but none who lived and died before.

    Joshtried, Humor well taken. In my reading of the LDS prophets, it appears that “eternal life” is on a level greater than that of general salvation and seems to refer to the Celestial Kingdom. However, since I have not read everything written by every LDS prophet, I can hardly claim to be an authoritative source and will stand corrected. Regardless, the standard for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom remains that of perfection – not merely attempts to be good and overcome our faults. President Spencer Kimball tells the following story in “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 164: “An army officer called a soldier to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer. The soldier saluted and said, “I’ll try, sir! I’ll try!” To this the officer responded: “I don’t want you to try, I want you to deliver this message.” The soldier, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: “I’ll do the best I can, sir.” Ast this the officer, now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: “I don’t want you to try and I don’t want you to ‘do the best you can.’ I want you to deliver this message.” The chapter and the story make clear that “doing one’s best” is not sufficient if one would spend eternity with Heavenly Father.

    Thanks for the nod in regards to grace within the LDS teachings. I will, however, go a step further. While I do recognize that the Church teaches grace in Heavenly Father’s having given us the Plan of Salvation, the addition of the works to this grace still stands in stark contrast to the Biblical text. In Galatians 3:1-18, the Apostle Paul asks, “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.” Works should follow Salvation and, indeed, I find that the longer I have known my Heavenly Father, the more I appreciate the gift of His Son. This gratitude for the gift of Eternal Life with Him has done much to inspire my devotion, but my obedience results from the gift and is in no way a means to earn the gift or repay God for it, even in part.

  20. 20 choosethechrist
    February 27, 2012 at 1:00 am

    Josh said “IF there are evil fruits, please provide them so that this conversation can bring to light the perception of evil. (and no, we do not bring people to an “evil Jesus”, BUT if you feel we do, please provide at least your understand of what makes “our Jesus” evil, for I see him as Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary… and so on.) also, if any of the above teachings are evil, please elaborate on how/why you feel they are”

    What Josh listed are acts or deeds not fruits. Are they evil teachings? No they are not. However, my Bible does not say that I can be saved by being a good person, and doing good things. I have a problem with LDS Jesus because LDS Jesus is a gap filler. LDS Jesus is standing back waiting to step in for what mormons are not able to do on their own. My Jesus is no gap filler. My Jesus paid for 100% of my salvation.

    Once we have put our faith in Jesus, we will bear fruit; we will show love, understanding and forgiveness to others because Christ lives in us. And although the grace we receive must lead to discipleship, we must also remember that the one bringing forth obedience and works is the Holy Spirit dwelling within. We do NOT do this so that we can receive salvation; we do this because we love the in dwelling Lord. There is a cost to belonging to the Lord. That cost is NOT “we MUST do good works”, but that we give control of our heart to Jesus willingly and for all time. Jesus is either Lord of our life or he is not – period! The fruit of the spirit is merely proof that Jesus possesses our heart at the moment the good deed takes place. ~Herb Adams

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Regarding this: “Unless I am mistaken, you seem to be trying to pass judgement on Joseph, which should be the Lords to make.” ~Josh

    It drives me crazy when people try to say we should not pass judgement. We are to judge in order to decide if something is right or wrong. The Bible teaches that we should not pass hypocritical judgement. I really don’t think Kent has been hypocritical.

    And this: “If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26”

    Biblical context is so important. Hebrews 10:26 can only be understood in its near context (and in the context of the book of Hebrews). Paul’s essential purpose in writing this book is to pull Jewish believers away from continuing in the temple ritual now that that ritual had been fulfilled in Jesus. To continue with an elaborate system of rituals was like saying Jesus was not the Messiah and His death not valid.

    19) Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence in this entrance of ours into the [heavenly] holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, (20) an entryway through the [heavenly] veil [of separation] which is new and alive and which He has consecrated for us, that is [through the sacrifice] of His flesh (cf. Heb.10:10; 10:18), (21) and since we have [this] great high priest over the household of God, let us approach [the throne of grace (cf. Heb.4:16) to pray] with a truthful heart in complete faith, (22) our hearts sprinkled [clean] of [any] bad conscience and our bodies washed with pure water [of the Word (cf. Eph.5:26)]. (23) Let us hold on without turning [to the right or to the left] to the hope we have professed – for the One who has promised us [eternal life] is faithful. (24) And let us give careful attention to one another[‘s ministries] as motivation for [our own] love and good works, (25) not abandoning your mutual assembling (as some have made it their practice to do [and which makes this impossible]), but rather encouraging each other [to persevere in this work of the Lord], and doing so to an ever greater degree to the extent that you see the day [of the Lord] drawing [ever] closer. (26) For if we willfully continue in the life of sin after accepting and recognizing the truth [of the gospel], there remains no further sacrifice we can make for our sins, (27) but only a terrible expectation of judgment, and a burning fire, ready to devour those who oppose [His will]. (28) For anyone who set aside the law of Moses perished without mercy on the [testimony] of two or three witnesses. (29) How much greater punishment do you suppose will not justly come to someone who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and who has considered His blood of the covenant to be unclean (the very blood by which you were sanctified), and who has violently insulted the Spirit of grace?
    Hebrews 10:19-29

    By continuing in the Jewish temple ritual, these Jewish believers were committing sin, and serious sin at that. Because every time they participated in an animal sacrifice, they were saying, in effect, that Jesus died in vain. This really is “trampling” Him under foot; this really is regarding His blood, that is, His death on the cross, as “unclean”, this really is “insulting” the Spirit who testifies to Him and to the validity of His work.

    If we are walking in the light (1Jn.1:7), we can confess our failings and be confident of forgiveness (1Jn.1:9).

    My questions for Mormons would be: Are you committing sin everytime you participate in LDS requirements and temple ceremonies that trample the validity of the work of Jesus under your feet?

  21. 21 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 1:27 am

    Echo: regarding this:
    “Are you confident that you are doing all you can do or are you unsure?”
    I am confident that I do all that I need.
    are you confident that doing NOTHING other than saying Christ is Lord is what Christ was really trying to say? (i think he commanded the apostles to go out and work and spread the word… and he told the prostitute to stop sinning, not JUST to believe he was Christ)
    The WORK here being to not sin. This is impossible for all of us at least once. The Bible does not say that we have to sin more than once, merely that we will sin.

    Acgheen: i think this is a good place to start my response to you (and let me also say i have not read “every” teaching, i converted @ 18y/o and have been in the military since.. no excuse, but life continues to happen)
    If you sin, then accept the grace of God, and then “remain perfect” you are doing all that you can (though again, IF you believe Christ, you will do more than just refrain from sin.)
    also, i kind of got lost in your last paragraph.. no breaks, no 16’s, 17’s so on… not that it was badly witting, just hard to read. if i can i will take just the last sentence here and expound:
    This gratitude for the gift of Eternal Life with Him has done much to inspire my devotion, but my obedience results from the gift and is in no way a means to earn the gift or repay God for it, even in part.
    If i used earn or repay before, this may have been folie on my part. The continued works after grace is the covenant you have made with Christ. you understand when you are baptized that you are washed clean, you sin is blotted out. if you turn right back around and continue to lead a sinful life, then you did not repent in the first place, you did not “go your way and sin no more”.

    I guess what i am seeing here as the “confusing parts” is the definition of “works” or “what all we can do” truly is. If we are made perfectly clean by baptism, then it is perfectly acceptable to remain perfect after. no where in the bible does it say that i have to sin after i have been made perfect. (whether i have or have not sinned is not the question, the question is whether Christ can make you perfect, and if you can remain so on this earth)

    Choosethechrist: This is excellent:
    “Once we have put our faith in Jesus, we will bear fruit; we will show love, understanding and forgiveness to others because Christ lives in us” This shows that we TRULY accepted Christ, and arent just trying to make our friends think that we have.
    to the ending of the paragraph there though, i have never heard of Herb Adams, guess i have more studying on my hands..
    And to this:
    “My questions for Mormons would be: Are you committing sin everytime you participate in LDS requirements and temple ceremonies that trample the validity of the work of Jesus under your feet?”

    Never once in our temple work are we trying to make our own atonement for our sins, which would be the relation you are trying to make to the old law. Things we do include baptisms for the dead (for those that did or will receive Christ as their savior, but did not have a chance to be baptized even as Christ was), make covenants which we believe entitle us to said highest level of heaven, and are sealed to our families. The work is done for what are lives are going to be after this life, not to try and make up in any way for our own sins.

  22. 22 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 1:31 am

    And to everyone that has responded here, i want to thank you all. In the short time i have been apart of this, I have come to know that each of you truly loves me, as you are each attempting to lead each other to that which you believe to be right. setting aside who is right, i hope that you all see the love that is here as well.

  23. February 27, 2012 at 2:09 am

    Josh said: “I am confident that I do all that I need.”

    What is your guide or measuring stick that gives you that confidence?

    Josh said: “are you confident that doing NOTHING other than saying Christ is Lord is what Christ was really trying to say? (i think he commanded the apostles to go out and work and spread the word… and he told the prostitute to stop sinning, not JUST to believe he was Christ)”

    I am 100% confident that I was saved and am fully forgiven by grace alone through faith alone. That free unmerited forgiveness is so amazing that it fires me up to want to go and sin no more. The prostitute story is a fine example of what I mean. That prostitute was freely and fully forgiven **before** she overcame her sins. Christ forgave her and THEN he told her to go and sin no more.

    Josh said: “And to everyone that has responded here, i want to thank you all. In the short time i have been apart of this, I have come to know that each of you truly loves me, as you are each attempting to lead each other to that which you believe to be right. setting aside who is right, i hope that you all see the love that is here as well.”

    We are glad that you are here Josh. You are very welcome here in this blog and it is very nice chatting with you too. Thank you for your love and kindness also.

  24. 24 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 3:45 am

    my guide is my relationship with God. I understand that relationship, and the communication possible at different stages in our relationship. There was once a time when i was TOLD, plain as day, by God, that i was not supposed to do something. this wasnt a feeling, or a thought, i was told. This was because i communed daily with God, and walked with God as Noah did. (i wish i continued to do this, as it very much enriched my life. i am getting back to it, but like any relationship, it takes time to again understand each other, like i was able to understand him say “NO!” that day.) I also understand sin, and what it is to sin. if you understand both of these, you understand what you are supposed to avoid in this life.

    I agree with you that you (and I) were saved by grace, through faith alone.

    BUT, you can NOT stop with being saved. that is the only point i am trying to make here. you must make an effort (or WORK) to not blaspheme in any way. if this is your only work, it is still work, and that work must be satisfied before you die. The atonement is NOT a free pass into heaven, it is conditional, whether you want to believe it or not.

    Back to the prostitute: perhaps i have over analyzed this part, but this is how i see this particular instance. IF the prostitute does as Jesus commands, then she has kept this covenant between her and Christ (her atonement, in exchange for her sinning no more). IF she goes and commits more adultery, then she has not listened to Christ, and the aforementioned covenant is broken. while this is not implicitly laid out in this exact part of the Bible, i do believe it is laid out in other parts (see ALL of the not blaspheming scriptures)

    To each of us Christ has said go and sin no more, not “well, go ahead and live the rest of your lives as you want, I will be waiting for you regardless of anything you do from the time you accepted me”. as choose pointed out, “Once we have put our faith in Jesus, we will bear fruit; we will show love, understanding and forgiveness to others because Christ lives in us”. If Christ is living in us, we would not wish to live our lives as WE want, but as HE wants. HE did not sin, and has paid the price for all sin. why in the world would he live in us, and allow us to sin? does he want to experience sin vicariously through us? I truly hope not. I know that he understands the debt that must be repaid for any sin, more so than any of us, and as such, would direct us to a sin free life, not a care free life.

  25. February 27, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Josh
    I like to reply too to the your statement earlier where you said:
    “I am confident that I do all that I need.”
    and then in your next response you said:
    “I also understand sin, and what it is to sin. if you understand both of these, you understand what you are supposed to avoid in this life.”
    This reminds me of this event in Matthew 19:16-26
    “16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”

    Josh I’d like to ask you. Do you think Jesus could think of at least one thing you still lack that you haven’t realized? “13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. ” Hebrews 4:13. Have you repented of every single time you have been angry or every time you may have insulted someone’s intelligence, or every time you have had a lustful thought. Matthew 5:22, 27-28. ” 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20. “10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10.

    One thing I have come to realize is that I sin every day. I need his forgiveness every day. Every day, I’m not remotely perfect. My answer to that is not to think that I must trust in my ability to stop myself from sinning. I tried that and it didn’t work. And when I say I tried, I mean I sincerely tried – hard. But I couldn’t. I learned that the hard way with an sinful addiction that had gripped me for most of my adult life (I’m now in my 50s). I kidded myself that if I just told God I was sorry, felt like I meant it, and tried really hard to stop, everything would be fine. But it wasn’t. No matter what I tried, the drive was still there to go back. And I kept falling back, over and over again. It got so bad that one day I finally realized that I could not defeat the addiction that was about to destroy everything that mattered to me. All the while, I knew that small persistent voice within me simply would not let me let go of the guilt. I was crushed to pieces by that small persistent voice and I finally gave up and literally cried out “God help me.” That small persistent voice was the Holy Spirit refusing to give up on me calling me back to the Lord. From that day on, my life has never been the same. I was lost and Jesus saved me. I confessed my sin, put my trust in the fact that Jesus took my sins to the cross to pay for them all, and called me to follow him. He changed my heart – of course I’ll follow Him. The drive for that awful sinful addiction is gone, but even more than that my whole outlook was different. I realized that in the process of saving me, Jesus showed me my sins and how selfish I had been for most of my life. I realize, I am one of those wretches that the song Amazing Grace sings about. I don’t struggle with the addiction anymore, but I do realize how there is no way despite my best efforts that I could ever “do everything I need.” I still struggle with sins. Don’t think for one minute that the life of Christian is “carefree.” We fight temptations because it is in our nature to do so because He is in us. We fight the battles not to win, but because it is who we have become in Him. We know He has won the war already and so we are free to continue living for Him everyday – even though we fall. He is always there to help us up.
    ” 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:18-25

    My answers to struggles with sin is :
    ” 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:15-16.

    Josh here is how I see it – even though I am a wretch – Jesus loves me anyway, has forgiven me, won’t take that forgiveness away, He lived a perfect life in my place, He gave me His righteousness, is with me now, and has promised me “bereandave” that I will be with Him in heaven because in HIM – I (the wretch) have been made perfect in His sight. Hebrews 10:14.

    My guidance is His Word and it works:
    ” 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12.

    I thank Him every day for what He has done for me. He is the first one I think of when I get up, and the last one I think of at the end of the day. And yes, I pray throughout the day all the time.

    David

  26. 26 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    bereandave:

    Matthew 19:16-26 is clearly referring to those not willing to give up themselves and follow Christ. I have stated that i have (i personally have not been called to give up every dime i have. i have been called to raise my family, and am in complete accord with this calling.)

    Matthew 5:22, 27-28 to this, the pharasies and scribes were hypocrites in just about everything they did. they did it for outward posterity, not inward glorification through God.

    Matthew 5:20 to this, as i said earlier, WE ALL WILL OFFEND ONCE. we are guilty completely. ONLY through Christ are we perfect. once we are perfect in Christ, we can be perfect forever.

    & to this “I finally gave up and literally cried out “God help me.””. If you will read what i wrote earlier…
    “i know that the only way that i can overcome my trials daily is through the strength the grace of God gives me”
    you were holding onto your own sin, i clearly stated that i give up everything to God, every day.

    & to this “O wretched man that I am! ” i earlier posted “my flesh (carnal man) is the enemy, and i openly recognize this”. i understand that EYE (misspelled only to exaggerate the point of “me”) am not perfect EXCEPT through Christ, who has made me so.

    something you are clearly missing, but think to have a grasp on is this… “He gave me His righteousness”
    If he gave you his righteousness, then you ARE righteous… he did not give it to you on the weekends, or on super bowl Sunday.. He gave it to you EVERYDAY, to be righteous EVERYDAY. if you are righteous EVERYDAY through Christ, then you CAN be living perfect.

  27. 27 shematwater
    February 27, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Sorry I am late to the discussion.

    I think most people do not understand the meaning of 2 Nephi 25: 23.
    “we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

    Most people see this as meaning that grace only comes after we do what we can, but that is a false understanding. Grace comes first, with the power to save, giving us the strength to do all we can do. But if we do not choose to act on that power we cannot hope to gain eternal life.
    It is like being given a car with a full tank of gas, money for refills, and a map to guide us. if we just toss the map into the back seat and never look at it, or we don’t take the time to refill the tank (or don’t even try to drive) how can we hope to reach our destination.

    Grace is given first, then we must do all we can. If we do this Grace is given again, allowing us to do more, and so on until we are perfected in Christ.

    As to repentance, I think people are again misunderstanding much of what is said.
    No, we cannot do daily sins and repentance; but this is talking about a certain attitude that people have who try to do this. They think “Well I will do what I want today, and then when I go to bed I will repent, pray to God and be forgiven. The next day they do the same. This is not repentance and will profit us nothing. Repentance is not like a bandaid that can be applied when desired. It is much more involved, and requires much more work.
    Thus, a man who claims to have repented of adultery, and yet still murders, has not truly repented. They have ceased one sin in an attempt to gain the blessings, but have not truly been changed, what is what true repentance does.
    All these quotes that people drag out as proof for their false claims really are speaking to the attitude of the person that leads to such behavior. Our attitude must be one of perfect submission in all things or we have not repented. When we achieve this perfect submission all our sins are forgiven. If we turn from this submission they are not.

    I know people don’t like the idea of repeated forgiveness, or the idea that forgiveness can be lost. However, the bible is clear that it can be lost. After all, James tells us that when we have faith enough to be healed our sins are also forgiven at that time (James 5: 15). If they had already been forgiven than why would God need to forgive them again?

    JOSH

    I am curious as to what prostitute you are discussing. The only time I know of in the Bible that has the statement “Go and sin no more” is from John chapter eight (and I never thought of her as a prostitute). Going on the assumption that this is the story you reference, I would like to add a small bit to it.
    verse 11 “She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
    I have always found it fascinating that Christ never actually says “your sins are forgiven.” What he does say is that she is not condemned, not that she is saved. It is more a “You still have a chance. Go and sin no more.”

    DAVID

    Speaking of Matthew 19, let me ask you a question. Would this young man have been perfect if he had sold everything and followed Christ? I think he would have been, as it is the only thing Christ says that he is lacking. This is confirmed in Luke 18: 22, and Mark 10: 21.
    This young man was told what he needed to do to have eternal life, but was unwilling to do it. We have all been told what we need to do to have eternal life, and I pray we are all willing to do.

  28. 28 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    shem, i may have my stories mixed up.. as i have admitted before…

    prostitute was brought before jesus and was to be stoned to death. the He said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Then, directed to her, i thought he said go your way and sin no more.. perhaps this was a bad story to pick, as i may have gotten this crossed.. i guess ill go study a bit more, and get back with a reply on whether i did or not..
    the point remains the same though, whether it be a prostitute or not. to go your way and sin no more doesnt leave the option of living your life as you have before, as you were obviously living in sin.

  29. February 27, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Josh,

    Josh said: “I agree with you that you (and I) were saved by grace, through faith alone.”

    When I say that I am saved by grace through faith alone, What I mean is that there are no conditions attached to gaining eternal life. Whereas the LDS teaches that there are conditions, and keeping all of the commandments are part of the conditions, right?

  30. 30 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Echo:

    i really want you to clarify. are you saying that you can live you life any way YOU choose after your acceptance of Christ into your life?

  31. February 27, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Josh & Shem

    Well this clearly illustrates the difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that you “can be living perfect” and Christianity teaches how we all fall short and need Jesus to save us because we can’t save ourselves. Are both of you sure you would know true repentance when you see it? Josh – so you can be perfect?

    1 You have had no lustful thoughts? ANd Never repeated a lustful thought?
    2. You have never gotten angry, and then got angry again.
    3. Never took a paper clip from work?
    4. Never failed to do something you knew was right?
    5. Never exceeded the speed limit?
    6. Always returned everytime someone gave you too much change back?
    7. Never been selfish?
    8. Loved all your ememies?
    9. Never told a lie? Never told another one?
    10. Never held a grudge?
    11. Forgiven everyone who has wronged you?

    And for each and everytime you may have done something wrong who have followed all the procedures for repentance every single time?

    The standard you laid out for me “EVERDAY” also apples to you. Sorry, Josh – you are not perfect and you never will be. If you try to add your righteousness onto the righteousness won for you by Jesus, all you’ll do is soil it. Isaiah 64:6 “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” I leave my rags behind, and take Jesus’ robe of righteousness because He gave it to me freely. See Romans 3. I never want to take for granted what He did for me.

    I may be a wretch but I’m in good company.

    “14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” 1 Timothy 1:14-16

    “18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? ” Paul writing in Romans 7:18-24.

    What would say to Paul and Timothy? Josh and Shem, you may think each of you can be living perfect, but that is simply not possible – not on this side of heaven.
    11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:11-13.
    19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:19-24.

    Nothing either of you can do can add on or complete the saving work of Jesus.

    David

  32. February 27, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Shem

    Forgot to answer your question about the rich man. The answer for the reasons stated above is no. Definitely not. “16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16.

    The rich man is like any other sinner who refuses God’s free gift of forgiveness through Christ Jesus.

  33. 33 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    David, we are not saying that we are adding onto or completing. I am saying this is a covenant.

    I will ask you the exact same thing i asked Echo.

    i really want you to clarify. are you saying that you can live you life any way YOU choose after your acceptance of Christ into your life?

  34. February 27, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    I asked you my question first. Answer my questions and I’ll answer yours. I’m doing this for a reason and it has to do with answering your question.

    David

  35. 35 joshtried
    February 27, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    David, if this is the question of which you are talking, you are correct, and i did not answer.
    “Do you think Jesus could think of at least one thing you still lack that you haven’t realized? ”

    To put very bluntly, NO. I must not deny the Holy Ghost, and i must continue to not sin.

    I will very openly state though that i have not read EVERY single scripture. This may lead to my having overlooked something considered sin, that i am not aware. IF this is the case, then yes, i fall short of what i have made a covenant to do, which is to live perfectly “from this point (baptism) forward”.

    I want to make very clear though that whether or not i receive my gifts through heavenly father is not up to you, or anyone else on here to decide.

    Now, please answer with complete clarity whether you can live your life ANY way YOU choose after having accept Christ.

  36. February 27, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    Josh
    Actually I was hoping you’d answer 1 through 11 and the one following it about being perfect. But, nobody’s perfect :) . The question that you ask in response to my previous post makes me wonder where would you get the idea that it is OK to live your life anyway you choose. The only way I would choose, Josh is to live for Christ.
    Galatians actually explains this:

    “19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21.

    There is more to faith that simply saying you believe. The transformation faith has in the life of a believer is real. A believer lives for Christ not for the sinful nature, as a result we fight against our sinful nature until we die. As Paul described in Romans 7 as I quoted above it is a war within the heart of a Christian. Fortunately for us, the end result has been guaranteed by Jesus because He won this war for us. When one has faith in what Christ has done for them they have been freed from the demands of perfect obedience to the law. We are in fact not under the law but under grace – right now.

    “15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” Romans 6:15-18.

    Hebrews 12: says: “1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”

    Note, however, that these passages are speaking in terms of what results from faith having been freed from the law, to live for Christ. “2Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR AND FINISHER of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2

    These passages do not unravel all those other passages in Romans 3; Titus, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2; and Hebrews 10 that make clear our works do not save us but that we are justified by faith in Him and made perfect NOW in Christ not after we are obedient for awhile longer. It is not years or centuries before you are forgiven, you are forgiven NOW through faith (not works) in Christ – works are the effect not the cause of forgiveness.

    David

  37. 37 shematwater
    February 27, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    I find it funny that people talk about LDS doctrine causing pride or despair, when that is all I can see in the doctrine of everyone else.

    What do other Christians teach: You can never do it. Basically we are all losers that would do better to give up and just let Christ take over because we are all too deprave to do anything that is good by ourselves. Talk about depressing.
    Then they teach that we are all perfect through Christ. Basically it doesn’t matter what we do because Christ has already made us perfect, we are just the only ones with sense enough to except the fact, unlike the pitiable idiots who think otherwise. Talk about pride.

    While I admit to a little literary license and interpretive paraphrasing, this is the distinct impression I get from the way people try to explain the doctrine that is supposed to be some much more glorious and bring such greater joy.

    DAVID

    So, even though Christ said that if the man did this one thing he would be perfect you choose not to believe it based on your interpretation of other scriptures?

    Also, if you had any understanding of LDS doctrine you would know that we believe completely in this state: “we all fall short and need Jesus to save us because we can’t save ourselves.”
    This is basic LDS doctrine, without which the rest of the doctrine of the church collapses. You see a difference where there is none.
    The real difference is that we believe the saving power of Christ actually teaches us and trains us to live perfectly, while you seem to believe that it simply makes you perfect, and thus ignores any future sins you may have committed.

    When it comes to living perfectly one must understand what is meant. After all, Genesis 6: 9 states that Noah was perfect, and Job 1: 1 states the Job was perfect. If God can make these men perfect, why can he not make us perfect. However, the perfection of God is not the same as the perfection of man. No man, while living on this earth, will ever live at the same level of perfection as God. That is not possible. Even Joseph Smith had his failings (he was very sarcastic). Yes, I would say that he had sinned, and most likely had sinned within the last week of his life. But he still lived perfectly, for their was never a time in his later years when his mind, his desires, and his will was not perfectly in line with God’s. This is living in perfection. It is not being free of all error, but being so completely devoted to God that no thought of betraying him enters your mind.

    JOSH

    You had the right story, as I thought. Some people do claim she was a prostitute, but the account never actually says she is.
    As to my comment, my point was that you are right. Christ did tell her to go and sin no more, which is a clear indication that some effort is require on our part. Added to this is the fact that he never actually forgave the sin and we get a clearer picture as to the need of righteous living.
    In other words, this woman’s story is a perfect example: The women had committed a grievous sin, but had not yet fully repented. Christ does not just give forgiveness, but tells her that she is not yet lost, telling her to go and sin no more, thus indicating that salvation was still possible if she did her part.

  38. February 27, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    Shem

    You have completely mischaracterized everything I said. “. . . .for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16. That’s not my interpretation, that’s what it says. I can’t make you believe. All I can do is tell what it says and I have done so.

    Depressing? It seems to me to be depressing to not know if it will be years or even centuries before you are forgiven. The truth is what scripture says – Christ died for the ungodly and we are made perfect by His work -ALONE!

    Pride? – thinking you can add to something Jesus perfected forever.

    David

  39. 39 shematwater
    February 27, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    DAVID

    “thinking you can add to something Jesus perfected forever.”

    We add nothing to what Christ did, and any who claims we believe otherwise has no understanding of our doctrine.

    “It seems to me to be depressing to not know if it will be years or even centuries before you are forgiven.”

    It will only take that long for one who is not repentant. The repentant person can know now that they have been forgiven. Again, only one who does not understand the doctrine would make such claims as this.

    “. . . .for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16. That’s not my interpretation, that’s what it says.”

    Sorry, that is your interpretation, as you do not bother to figure out what law he is talking about. In your interpretation you apply it to all law, or commands of God. However, it states in Galatians 3: 17 “And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”
    Thus the ‘law’ that Paul is talking about is the Law of Moses, which was added by Moses to the Abrahamic Covenant 430 later. It is not the Higher Law that was given by Christ. By the works of the Law of Moses shall no flesh be justified.
    Galatians 2: 17 tells us “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.”
    It thus clearly teaches that we must still abide the commandments of Christ, doing all good works that he has commanded.
    So, yes, this is your interpretation.

  40. February 27, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Josh

    Your comment to Shem talking about the woman. You said:

    “Christ does not just give forgiveness, but tells her that she is not yet lost, telling her to go and sin no more, thus indicating that salvation was still possible if she did her part.”

    NO, that is NOT what He said: Here is what Jesus said to the woman. Even the onlooking Pharasees understood the Jesus forgave her and attached no strings to it. You don’t even see it as clearly as the Pharasees did.

    “48And he said unto her, Thy sins ARE forgiven. 49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, Thy faith HATH SAVED thee; GO IN PEACE.” Luke 7:48-50.

    There was no if she did her part. Again, that’s not my interpretation that’s what it says. The interpretation is by adding things to the story that are not there. His last words to her were “GO IN PEACE” not NOW GO DO YOUR PART.

    Accept what Jesus told the woman. She has been forgiven. He did not say she will be forgiven if . . . ..

    David

  41. 41 shematwater
    February 27, 2012 at 11:11 pm

    DAVID

    Try to keep up. You quote me, saying that Josh said the words, and then you try to say I quoted the scriptures wrong by quoting a different passage.

    It was in my comment to Josh at February 27, 2012 at 9:50 pm that I made the statement you quote. I made it in regards to John 8: 11, which I quoted above, but will again quote here “She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
    As I said, this verse does not say that he forgave her, but that he, at that time, did not condemn her.

    Speaking Luke 7, I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that he forgave this woman of her sins. I will not debate the reasons for such, but I will acknowledge that he did so. But this has nothing to do with the account in John chapter 8. They are different women, different situations. We cannot use the one to interpret the other.

  42. 42 joshtried
    February 28, 2012 at 3:55 am

    David, you quoted this:
    15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    THIS says you are UNDER GRACE, and MUST BE OBEDIENT UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, or you face death!

    why are you not catching this? you quoted it!

    also, i still dont know which 1 through 11 you are referring to. i think that is supposed to be your point (i am not perfect enough to understand this.)
    Perfect in NO dialogue means mind reader. the question i answered was the only question i could find that you had asked me.

  43. 43 joshtried
    February 28, 2012 at 5:14 am

    I quote Jesus Christ himself here…
    Mark 3 :29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. ”

    HATH NEVER FORGIVENESS.

    This doesnt say everything you do is forgiven, if you choose to blaspheme.
    This means (dun dun done……) That IF you blaspheme, AFTER you have receive the grace of God, you CANNOT retain that grace.

    SO, while you may attain grace, you must make sure to never blaspheme.
    (wait, what? i have to do something before i go to heaven, or specifically REFRAIN from doing something?)
    sounds like a work to me..

  44. February 28, 2012 at 5:23 am

    Josh,

    Josh said: “i really want you to clarify. are you saying that you can live you life any way YOU choose after your acceptance of Christ into your life?”

    Thank you for asking for clarification. I would be glad to clarify my statement for you :)

    The Bible teaches us some very important truth’s about ourselves and about how God sees us. Prior to us having faith, we were by nature objects of God’s wrath. Ephesians 2:3 “Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.” There are ample scriptures that talk about just how wicked we are and some that explain that all our wickedness and sin resides in our own hearts and thoughts, but this one verse that I gave shows us that our built in nature is so corrupt, that we are nothing but objects of God’s wrath. It’s in our DNA! That really rubbed against my reason and logic at the time I learned that but the fact is that is it the truth.

    I have not been a Christian my whole life so while I did a lot of bad things when I wasn’t a Christian and recognized that sin, I also did a lot of things that I thought were good things during that time. I was stunned to learn that “without faith it is impossible to please God” Hebrews 11:6 That just didn’t sit well with my logic, you know. However, my logic doesn’t negate the word of God. God said it, it has to be true whether it fits with my logic or not. While I simply could not see how nothing I ever did pleased God, I had to believe God when he said that nothing, I mean absolutely nothing I ever did pleased him despite the fact that I thought I did many things which he would have been pleased with. I mean, who am I to tell God what he really means to say. He says what he really means to say and I must just hear that and believe it despite my feelings, beliefs, logic to the contrary.

    Then I learned about God’s law from reading the Bible. God’s law says nothing about trying our best, God’s law demands absolute perfect obedience and nothing short of it. James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” and Galatians 3:10 “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” In other words, we aren’t considered: “obedient” until we reach sinless perfection!

    Then I began learning about the depth of sin and the countless/endless ways in which we sin every single day. Every unkind word a sin, every unkind thought a sin, every avoidance of helping someone in need is a sin, every time we fail to visit someone in the hospital or in prison it is a sin. Every time we make unkind assumptions about someone it is a sin, Anger in the heart is the sin of murder. Lust in the heart is adultery, lying and pride are sins, telling half truths is a sin, it’s a sin to be in a church that we know teaches one single false teaching. It is a sin to think we can earn God’s forgiveness, it is a sin to think that there are conditions to gaining eternal life. It is a sin, to think that we are worthy of anything. And the list just goes on endlessly and I am still learning more ways in which we sin, 12 years later.

    When I get the big picture of just what sin really and truly is, I can only beat my breast like the tax collector and beg “God have mercy on me a sinner!”

    I began to see how impossible it is for us to earn forgiveness from God, or to work towards gaining eternal life. After reading the scriptures and taking them at face value without trying to make God’s word fit my idea of what God should be like, or without getting his word to fit my logic, or without trying to make God’s word into a doctrine that would leave room for me to get myself into his favor, I soon realized that if God doesn’t do everything necessary for us to enter eternal life, none of us will be going there. What we really deserve is to go to Hell for eternity just to pay our debt for one single sin. And how often do we sin every single day! The debt we have incurred already has left us entirely as poor beggars with no possible way to pay him back. How can we pay back an eternity in Hell even for just one sin!?

    That’s the conclusion I get to when I let God speak to me through his word and I let him say what he wants to say whether I like what he has to say or not. I just listen to what he has to say without judging his word.

    Then I read further about what God has done for us. How he did everything necessary to give us certainty that eternal life is a gift to us without conditions. How because of God alone, we have been saved from the only destiny we deserve which is an eternity in Hell. How he was mocked, ridiculed, persecuted, slandered, tortured and nailed to a cross for you and for me. And while he was dangling there on the cross, blood pouring out of him, he was thinking about how much he loved you and me. He was dying for your sins and mine. We deserve that kind of treatment and death, not Jesus! That should have been us! Yet he took our place and took our punishment.

    All of our sins, past, present and future have been washed away by his blood. He has clothed us in his righteousness. He has imputed his sinless perfection to us. Whenever God looks at us, all he sees is sinless perfection because of all the Jesus did for us.

    He justified the ungodly is what he did. So sure and certain is that, that we need never doubt it again. We need never worry if we are worthy enough, we need never worry if we will spend eternity with God in eternal life. Those things are sure and certain for us. So great is his love!

    Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

    Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

    Romans 5:6 “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.”

    Luke 18:9-14 “ To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    The fact that we have been given eternal life without any conditions attached is amazing don’t you think? Just think about that for awhile and what that would mean for you. What kind of picture of God does that paint in your mind? What kind of picture of God’s love for you does that paint in your mind? We are talking here about God justifying the ungodly. That’s pretty amazing huh?

    What this message does, is it makes us realize just how much we deserve for our sins and just how impossible it is for us to make ourselves worthy, but at the same time, it shows us an amazing love that God has for wretched sinners like all of us. That Christ died for the ungodly. That Christ died to reconcile the ungodly to himself. That Christ went through all that torture and pain and death because he loved us that much even when we were his enemies! I mean, how can anyone not just totally fall in love with a God that loves us that much!

    I am astonished by this amazing love, personally, I can’t help but love this God! His love for me is so amazing that I want to share that love with others and also I desire to please him in every way. Does that mean I am free to sin? Well I suppose you could say I am free to sin, but then you have missed the whole entire point of what I am trying to say. God’s love is so amazing to me that I no longer desire to sin because this God I love!

    When you fall in love with a woman and marry her, you are free to commit adultery, but your love for her keeps you from desiring to do that. When a person loves God, they are free to do what they want also. When you genuinely love someone, you do desire to please them.

  45. 45 joshtried
    February 28, 2012 at 5:47 am

    You have so beautifully clarified my point, (and yours) that i dont think i need to add to it. With Christ you WILL do good :)
    (but, you still must not blaspheme, see the reply immediately above your last one… )

  46. February 28, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Josh said: “I quote Jesus Christ himself here…
    Mark 3 :29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. ” HATH NEVER FORGIVENESS. This doesnt say everything you do is forgiven, if you choose to blaspheme. This means (dun dun done……) That IF you blaspheme, AFTER you have receive the grace of God, you CANNOT retain that grace. SO, while you may attain grace, you must make sure to never blaspheme. (wait, what? i have to do something before i go to heaven, or specifically REFRAIN from doing something?) sounds like a work to me..”

    The sin against the Holy Ghost is “unbelief” and the opposite of “unbelief” is “faith”

    Faith isn’t a work. It is a gift from God, therefore it is his work and not ours.

    Are you aware that Mormons are committing this unforgivable sin through belief in eternal life based on conditions?

    This is why we are so concerned for Mormons.

  47. 48 Joshtried
    February 28, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    As I have said about 15x now, faith without works is not faith. I have posted scriptural reference as have others concerning what faith really is. Faith IS work, or it is not Faith

  48. February 28, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Josh

    Faith is not work. Faith is trust that Jesus did everything necessary to make you righteous before God. Faith, which is what saves, when present produces works. Faith leads to works but works done out of an obligation to obey is not faith in the forgiveness that Jesus won on the cross.

    Galatians 3:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

  49. 50 shematwater
    February 28, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    DAVID

    Faith is not works, just like the seed is not the tree, right. The one is merely a product of the other. So, as long as one has the seed they are saved, regardless of whether it actually blooms or not.

    PS In Galatians Paul is talking about the Law of Moses, not the Law of Christ.

  50. February 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    Josh said: “As I have said about 15x now, faith without works is not faith. I have posted scriptural reference as have others concerning what faith really is. Faith IS work, or it is not Faith”

    Josh, I agree with you when you say that faith without works is dead. However faith is not a work. Faith is faith and a work is a work. The Bible distinguishes the two. Works are the “fruits” of faith like an apple is the fruit of an apple tree.

    We are not saved because of our faith, we are saved because of grace. We are saved “through” faith, not because of faith. If life comes through water, then water represents grace and a hose represents faith. The life is in the water, not the hose. The hose is simply the means through which life giving water flows.

    Faith is a gift from God, not a work. Therefore faith is God’s work, not ours.

    The works of Mormons are not true good works. True good works flow “only” from a faith that believes there are no conditions to entering eternal life. Therefore the “good works” of Mormons are nothing more than glittering vices. (“without faith it is impossible to please God” Hebrews 11:6)

    I say this because Mormons do not yet have what we call “saving faith” therefore all their works are done out of necessity or obligation (requirement) which is exactly what the whole unbelieving world believes. And we know from scripture that the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers.

    Mormons are committing the unforgivable sin of unbelief. Which is why we are here speaking with all of you in hopes that you don’t die in unbelief because if you do die in unbelief, there is no longer any hope for your forgiveness and those who die in unbelief go to Hell for eternity.

  51. February 28, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Echo: “The works of Mormons are not true good works. True good works flow “only” from a faith that believes there are no conditions to entering eternal life. Therefore the “good works” of Mormons are nothing more than glittering vices. (“without faith it is impossible to please God” Hebrews 11:6)

    I say this because Mormons do not yet have what we call “saving faith” therefore all their works are done out of necessity or obligation (requirement) which is exactly what the whole unbelieving world believes. And we know from scripture that the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers.

    Mormons are committing the unforgivable sin of unbelief. Which is why we are here speaking with all of you in hopes that you don’t die in unbelief because if you do die in unbelief, there is no longer any hope for your forgiveness and those who die in unbelief go to Hell for eternity.”

    You say this over and over again. It is so sad to hear you, who knows absolutely nothing about my faith or anyone’s faith but your own, judge like that. I feel sad for you Echo…and those who are following you. God knows our hearts. I will see you on the other side one day and hope that you will listen to the truth while there so that you can continue your progression. You are only damning yourself by your words here.

  52. February 28, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Kate said: “You say this over and over again. It is so sad to hear you, who knows absolutely nothing about my faith or anyone’s faith but your own, judge like that. I feel sad for you Echo…and those who are following you. God knows our hearts. I will see you on the other side one day and hope that you will listen to the truth while there so that you can continue your progression. You are only damning yourself by your words here.”

    Hello again Kate,

    This isn’t about what is in your heart. This is about false doctrine.

  53. February 28, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Oh, but you are mistaken. You specifically spoke of our faith. My faith is in Jesus Christ. For you to disqualify me from Heaven based on what you think is false doctrine is passing judgement upon me and that is not for you to do. Again, it’s appalling what you are doing here. You are not teaching anyone about faith, repentance, baptism…the things that Jesus Christ commissioned his disciples to teach. You are simply bashing LDS beliefs. You are working overtime at twisting and turning words to try to prove false doctrine. I am not accusing you of anything that others cannot see here in these posts. Also, I’ve noticed that “Mark” has upped the intensity. Worried about something? Why not have a blog that teaches the love of the Savior. What you have here is void of the love you profess to have toward Mormons. I understand if you want to share your beliefs of the Gospel of Jesus Christ…your understanding of it with others. But that is not your goal here obviously. And that is not what Jesus Christ would have his disciples do. What I say to others is this: Come unto Christ. Lay your burdens at His feet. Follow Him and do as He did. He gave us commandments to follow that we might become like Him and our Father in Heaven. He is a lamp unto our feet. Grow in light until that perfect day. He loves all of us…even you Echo. Even though you are mistaken about us, you will still have the opportunity to repent.

  54. February 28, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    For someone who doesn’t want us to judge, you sure do alot of judging :)

    I assure you, we are here to rescue Mormons from soul destroying doctrine and to share the love of Jesus with those very same Mormons. Including you Kate.

  55. February 28, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Kate:

    Actually Jesus (thourgh his Word) is very clear about false doctrine. Galatians 1:6-9:

    “6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    Kate please understand, that what is posted here is done out of love for those who have been deceived by a false doctrine. If I saw you about to step into the path of an oncoming bus, I would reach out and pull you back. This is far worse. I know you sincerely believe LDS teachings, but the sincerity of your belief will not turn false doctrine into the truth. It would not be a loving thing to do to simply watch you continue down a path of destruction without warning you of the danger. Paul’s warning in Galatians is quite alarming – but that is because the stakes could not be any higher. There is a reason why Paul included in this warning the description of an angel and that is because Satan is very crafty and will not announce that he is spreading false docttrine. He will make every attempt to make false doctrine seem true.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15

    “13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

    There is nothing Jesus did not see coming and there is a reason for these warnings.

    2 Peter 2
    “1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ”

    Jesus established His church and NOTHING can destroy it and never could. “18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18.

    David

  56. 57 joshtried
    February 29, 2012 at 4:46 am

    Echo: I would very much like a scriptural reference to this
    “True good works flow “only” from a faith that believes there are no conditions to entering eternal life.”

    Secondly, and this is to ALL against LDS here.. I asked At the very beginning of this thread to list bad fruits, as that is how we are to know something is bad. I have yet to see one listed. you have said our logic is wrong, you have said our interpretation is wrong, but somehow, our “fruits” are still good.

    I also love the CLARITY provided when asked..
    When i was asked, i gave a very simple yes or no. this is clarity. A 17 page thesis is not. On to the other post to ask the same type of questions :)

  57. February 29, 2012 at 5:54 am

    Josh said: “Echo: I would very much like a scriptural reference to this
    “True good works flow “only” from a faith that believes there are no conditions to entering eternal life.”

    Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”

    Galatians 2:16 “know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ”

    Galatians 5:4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ”

    Romans 9:32 “Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

    Galations 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

    Isaiah 64:6 “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

  58. February 29, 2012 at 6:04 am

    Josh said: “I asked At the very beginning of this thread to list bad fruits, as that is how we are to know something is bad. I have yet to see one listed”

    I scrolled up and can’t find it, but can you clarify your question?

    Josh said: “you have said our logic is wrong, you have said our interpretation is wrong, but somehow, our “fruits” are still good.”

    I didn’t say your fruits were good, I said they were glittering vices. Someone else must have said that. Perhaps you would prefer they answer you on this particular point.

  59. 60 shematwater
    February 29, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    JOSH

    What Echo actually said is that because we don’t have faith in his doctrine all the good we do is counted as bad fruits. This means that everything you listed as a good fruit is really a bad fruit because we don’t have the same doctrine as Echo.

    ECHO

    “all [Mormon’s] works are done out of necessity or obligation”

    Wrong. My works are done out of love for the savior and all he has done for me. Yes I believe they are required, that does not not mandate a motivation of obligation.
    Say a friend comes to you and tells you that he has worked it out so that you are able to go to college without paying for it. Now, in order to actually graduate you have to do the required work.
    So, according to you your only possible motivation for doing the work is because it is required for graduation.
    To us we do that work because we love our friend and are grateful for the opportunity that he has given us.

    Oh, and none of your scriptural references say their are no requirements. Actually, most of them speak to the Law of Moses as no longer being a requirement, but don’t say there are none.

    DAVID

    “If I saw you about to step into the path of an oncoming bus, I would reach out and pull you back.”

    This is not what you are doing. What you are doing is lecturing at us for telling you that you are seeing things.

    A more applicable analogy would be this: You believe we are lost in the woods, are trying to get home and have started down a path that you think leads in the wrong way. Now you claim to be trying to steer us onto the right path. However, all I have witnessed is you telling us how wrong our path, without to much effort to point out the right one.
    Granted this does not fit everyone here, but this is the basic purpose of this blog. It is designed to lecture us on how wrong we are as its primary focus.

  60. February 29, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Shem

    You make no sense. You don’t see the path because you are sitting in darkness. I can see my time with you is wasted.

    Proverbs 14:16
    A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

    Bye Shem,

    David

  61. February 29, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Shem said: “most of them speak to the Law of Moses as no longer being a requirement, but don’t say there are none.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Galatians 5:14 “The ENTIRE LAW is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the LAW.

    Galatians 2:16 “know that a man is not justified by observing the LAW” but by faith in Jesus Christ”

    Galatians 5:4 “You who are trying to be justified by LAW have been alienated from Christ”

    Romans 9:32 “Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

    Galations 3:10 “All who rely on observing the LAW are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the LAW.”

    Isaiah 64:6 “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

  62. 63 shematwater
    February 29, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    ECHO

    I use the KJV, which gives a slightly different understanding that what you give.

    However, Galatians 2: 16; 3: 10; 5: 4, 14; as well as Romans 3: 28 and 9: 32 are still talking about the Law of Moses. The possible exception to this is Galatians 5: 14, which is part of a brief description of how we are supposed to behave. It is preceded by “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.” and is followed by “But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”

    Thus it can be said that this single verse speaks more to the Law of God, rather than the Law of Moses. However, in this verse there is no indication of requirement, and by taking the verse immediately before and immediately after it seems obvious that this law needs to be complied with.

  63. February 29, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    Certainly we will want to love our neighbor as ourselves, but that doesn’t mean that our love for our neighbor is a condition to entering eternal life.

    King James Version “For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    “ALL THE LAW fulfilled” (KJV) “THE ENTIRE LAW summed up” (NIV)

    There is not one law that doesn’t fall under: “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”

    The Law of Moses is the Law of God. There isn’t one law in the entire Bible that doesn’t fall into one of the 10 commandments.

    Galatians 5:4 “You who are trying to be justified by LAW have been alienated from Christ”

  64. 65 joshtried
    March 1, 2012 at 5:03 am

    Echo: to the first part after what i last wrote, each of those specify works WITHOUT faith. i clearly stated the difference already.. thanks for clarifying that :D

    as to questions in my first post.. There were many…
    1. I would ask here what fruits we see from LDS people? (punctuation changed from period to question mark)
    2. IF you have faith in Christ, you WILL do good works. Correct???
    3. IF i were to accept Christ at this very instance, AND then immediately turn around and murder someone, would i go to heaven?
    4. why? (this why is directly linked to the question before it)
    (this one i chopped, but there is still a question, so i pulled it out and re-punctuated it)
    5. I think a common misconception here is that after accepting Christ, we get to stop doing our part. How anyone can think this correct?
    6. also, if any of the above teachings are evil, please elaborate on how/why you feel they are (not really a question, i know, but it was asking something..)

    To this: “Josh said: “you have said our logic is wrong, you have said our interpretation is wrong, but somehow, our “fruits” are still good.”
    I didn’t say your fruits were good, I said they were glittering vices. Someone else must have said that. Perhaps you would prefer they answer you on this particular point.

    Simply put, that was a grammatical error on part. I did not mean that YOU said our works were good. you described what some would consider glittering vices. but no one had down right said that the “works/fruits” of the LDS are evil. (perhaps that was what you meant, but i did not see it pointed directly towards us, as i see our fruits as good.)

    Speaking to the last one here… “Galatians 5:4 “You who are trying to be justified by LAW have been alienated from Christ””

    we are NOT justified in the law..
    Echo:
    Would you agree that Christ’s death is a covenant with you?

  65. March 1, 2012 at 5:43 am

    Josh,

    1. Glittering vices
    2. Correct
    3. I don’t believe in accepting Christ like Evangelicals do. I believe God chooses us and gives us faith. I doubt someone who went out and murdered the next day had faith to begin with.
    4. When God gives us the gift of faith, he gives us a new heart that desires to obey him
    5. It’s not about doing “our part” it’s about having a new heart that desires to obey God.

    Josh said: “Speaking to the last one here… “Galatians 5:4 “You who are trying to be justified by LAW have been alienated from Christ””

    we are NOT justified in the law..”

    In our beliefs, when obedience to the commandments is made a requirement to entering eternal life, that by our definition is what it means to be justified by the law.

    In the Joseph Smith translation for Romans 4:5 it says God justifieth NOT the ungodly (paraphrase) That is being justified by the law because the Godly are justified not the ungodly.

    The Bible says God justifieth the ungodly. That is being justified by grace and not by the law in our beliefs.

    Josh said: “Would you agree that Christ’s death is a covenant with you?

    It is a covenant in which God did everything.

  66. 67 joshtried
    March 1, 2012 at 5:50 am

    Covenants have never been one sided… God is the same yesterday, today and forever, correct?
    Why then would this covenant be any different?

    Obviously, we have both posted scripture stating our beliefs.
    my stating Christ said himself to follow the commandments,
    you stating Christ fulfilled everything.
    (VERYYYYYY long post coming on the other blog “worship logic” but i give a tidbit now)

    the law was FULFILLED. it was not NEGATED.
    the law says we owe for our sin. period. it IS still in effect.
    IF it was NEGATED, we would not have to accept Christ at all.
    IF it was FULFILLED, the Christ paid for us.

  67. March 1, 2012 at 6:09 am

    Josh said: “Covenants have never been one sided… God is the same yesterday, today and forever, correct? Why then would this covenant be any different?”

    This is the new covenant…

    Hebrews 8:8-12 “The time is coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the house of Israel
    and with the house of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their forefathers
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
    10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
    or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

    As you can see, God did everything.

  68. 69 joshtried
    March 1, 2012 at 6:13 am

    maybe it is just me, but # 11 has not yet happened yet. we are still teaching our neighbors, (and if you arent shame on you. i need to work more on this to, so please, take this as what it is, and not as mean-spirited)
    Man does not all know God, therefore said covenant has not happened yet.

  69. 70 joshtried
    March 1, 2012 at 6:14 am

    if i am not mistaken, i see this as a reference to the millennial reign of Christ

  70. March 1, 2012 at 6:38 am

    Josh said: “maybe it is just me, but # 11 has not yet happened yet. we are still teaching our neighbors, (and if you arent shame on you. i need to work more on this to, so please, take this as what it is, and not as mean-spirited)
    Man does not all know God, therefore said covenant has not happened yet.”

    Verse 11 has happened. Believers all know and have experienced the Lord in the sense of all that he has done for us in context of the verse. This is not something we can teach others, it is something believers experienced when God converted them.

    Josh said: “if i am not mistaken, i see this as a reference to the millennial reign of Christ”

    In context of the whole book of Hebrews, it is the covenant we are in right now.

  71. 72 joshtried
    March 1, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    how do you get “believers” from “ALL”??? can God not make himself known to ALL? it VERY CLEARLY says ALL, yet you choose to ignore this.

  72. March 1, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Josh said: “how do you get “believers” from “ALL”??? can God not make himself known to ALL? it VERY CLEARLY says ALL, yet you choose to ignore this.”

    Verse 10 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel”

    As you can see, I didn’t “choose to ignore” the word “ALL” but have read the entire context. Even if the context only said: “All” that wouldn’t necessarily mean that I intentionally “chose to ignore” it either. It could have been an innocent oversight or there might be some other legitimate reason.

  73. 74 shematwater
    March 1, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    ECHO

    Galatians 5: 13-14
    “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    After we are liberated in faith we are to serve each other in love. Why? Because in doing so we fulfill the requirements of the Law. As you said, all laws are encompassed in “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Thus Paul is telling us that if we truly love our neighbors we will fulfill the law of God.

    This is why I say the NIV does not have the same meaning as the KJV. In the NIV this verse just tells us what the law is. In the KJV this verse is telling us how we comply with the law.

    “The Law of Moses is the Law of God. There isn’t one law in the entire Bible that doesn’t fall into one of the 10 commandments.”

    This is wrong. While all laws do fall under the Ten Commandments, the Law of Moses is of a different focus, and thus applies these ten in different ways.
    Matthew 5: 27-28
    “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time (law of Moses), Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    But I say unto you (law of God), That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

    The Law of Moses is a law of works. Only the actual action was counted. It was adapted to the lower spiritual capacity of the Israelites of that day. When Christ came he instituted the high Law of God, which took the same principles and applied them to thoughts and desires as well as actions.
    Another good difference is in the fact that the Law of Moses contained many sacrifices to symbolize the coming of the Saviour. These were done away with, as their purpose had ended.

    There are vast differences between the two laws.

  74. March 1, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Shem said: “After we are liberated in faith we are to serve each other in love. Why? Because in doing so we fulfill the requirements of the Law. As you said, all laws are encompassed in “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Thus Paul is telling us that if we truly love our neighbors we will fulfill the law of God.”

    Ya, okay, I think I agree with you there (If I understand you rightly). You have made an excellent point. At the same time, I think my point still stands right along side yours.

    Shem said: “This is why I say the NIV does not have the same meaning as the KJV. In the NIV this verse just tells us what the law is. In the KJV this verse is telling us how we comply with the law.”

    I do believe both the NIV and the KJV are in fact in harmony and are basically saying what we both said. While the text is showing that we fulfill the requirements of the law by loving our neighbor as ourselves, at the same time, every act of love, every law of God, is summed up in the command to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    Echo said: “The Law of Moses is the Law of God. There isn’t one law in the entire Bible that doesn’t fall into one of the 10 commandments.”

    Shem replied: “This is wrong. While all laws do fall under the Ten Commandments, the Law of Moses is of a different focus, and thus applies these ten in different ways.
    Matthew 5: 27-28
    “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time (law of Moses), Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    But I say unto you (law of God), That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. The Law of Moses is a law of works. Only the actual action was counted. It was adapted to the lower spiritual capacity of the Israelites of that day. When Christ came he instituted the high Law of God, which took the same principles and applied them to thoughts and desires as well as actions.
    Another good difference is in the fact that the Law of Moses contained many sacrifices to symbolize the coming of the Saviour.[sic] These were done away with, as their purpose had ended.

    There are vast differences between the two laws.”

    I see no difference between the Law of Moses and the Sermon on the Mount. We have to remember that Jesus taught the sermon on the mount because the Pharisees (the teachers of the law) had misinterpreted and twisted and mutilated the true meaning of the scriptures.

    You said: “It was adapted to the lower spiritual capacity of the Israelites of that day.”

    With which I disagree because the Pharisees are the ones who interpreted the law in a “lower spiritual capacity” sense which is why they thought they were doing a pretty good job of keeping the law. Jesus therefore wasn’t teaching them a “high law” but “THE” law in it’s original intended meaning. I have no disagreement with your animal sacrifice comment.

  75. 76 shematwater
    March 1, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    ECHO

    I think we may be seeing the same thing, which is always nice.
    As to the differences between the NIV and the KJV, I perfectly admit that what the NIV says is true, and is accurate, as is confirmed in Matthew 22: 37-40. But it is not saying the same thing as the same verse in the KJV. This was my point. I am glad that you can see what I am saying regarding this verse, but it is an understanding that cannot be gotten from the NIV.

    As to the Law of Moses, Christ himself states that it was adapted at the time of Moses because of the hardness of Israels heart at the time.
    Matthew 19: 8
    “He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
    So, the Law of Moses allowed for divorce for many reasons, but the Law of God (as stated earlier in the same chapter) allows for divorce only in the case of fornication.

    In the sermon on the Mount, Christ again makes reference to divorce (Matthew 5: 31-32). Since we know from Matthew 19 that it was Moses that gave the law concerning divorce, it is reasonable to assume that the rest of the Laws Christ is talking about in this Sermon were also given by Moses when he delivered the law to Israel.

    Of course, we also learn from Matthew 19 that the law given by Moses was not the original law given by God, for Christ says that “from the beginning it was not so.” Which ties back to the rest of Galatians, where we read that “the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after” (3: 17) cannot cancel what came before it, which is the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (who lived 430 years before Moses).
    This is why I make the distinction between the two laws. God made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants, but the Israelites of Moses time could not keep it, and so the Law of Moses was added. It is that covenant which was restored Christ, being called the New Covenant, for it was new to those of that day. It is in fulfilling the law of God, or the Law of this covenant that we retain our salvation.
    (I call this a law because the Bible calls it a law: “Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant” 1 Chronicles 16: 16-17)

  76. March 2, 2012 at 12:47 am

    Shem said: “I think we may be seeing the same thing, which is always nice.”

    It is nice.

    Shem said: “As to the differences between the NIV and the KJV, I perfectly admit that what the NIV says is true, and is accurate, as is confirmed in Matthew 22: 37-40. But it is not saying the same thing as the same verse in the KJV. This was my point. I am glad that you can see what I am saying regarding this verse, but it is an understanding that cannot be gotten from the NIV.”

    I believe the NIV reflects your point entirely and gives me the same understanding that you get from the KJV so we are good there.

    My general response to the rest of your post about Mathew 19…

    Lets go back to the question the Pharisees asked Jesus…

    Mathew 19:3 “The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?”

    Lets keep some things in mind about the Pharisees as we discuss this so we know “who” and “what” Jesus is dealing with here when the Pharisees ask questions…

    1) The Pharisees were teachers of the law who misinterpreted, twisted and mutilated the scriptures including the law.

    2) The Pharisees liked to try to trap Jesus in his words

    3) Jesus called them a brood of vipers and children of the devil because they hated truth and loved lies.

    Notice in Mathew 19:3 above the Pharisees are “tempting” him. Jesus knows this because he can see into their hearts and he knows all their thoughts.

    The Pharisees were asking Jesus to interpret the law. So basically it is like they are “tempting” him by asking: “Is it biblical for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”

    Jesus responds by referring to Genesis and stating that what God has joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Now I am going to skip parts of what is written, so by all means read the whole account, but I want to narrow down on and make a certain point here which is why I am skipping a portion of the text.

    Then in Verse 7 the Pharisees say: “Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?”

    Then Jesus responds with: “Moses suffered you to put away your wives”

    There is a vitally important difference between what the “Pharisees said Moses did” and what “Jesus said Moses did”.

    The Pharisees said: “Why did Moses command” Jesus said: “Moses suffered you”

    Do you see the Pharisees dirty little deed of “tempting” there? The truth is, Moses never commanded divorce of this kind.

  77. 78 joshtried
    March 2, 2012 at 2:55 am

    Echo:
    We are going to have to agree to disagree on #11… i still dont see it as having happened. I see ALL as being the “neighbors and brothers” (some of their neighbors would not have been of the house of Israel, and therefor would have needed to be taught, which obviously you are still trying to teach me. ergo….. hasnt happened)

  78. 79 shematwater
    March 2, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    ECHO

    I understand what you are saying regarding Matthew 19, but I think it is a bit of a stretch. Either way you look at it it was Moses that allowed such to be the case, which is what Christ confirms. The Pharisees did not make this up, but are taking it from the Law of Moses, and Christ is telling them that Moses allowed this because of the hardness of their hearts.

    Also note that the command the Pharisees are speaking of is not a command to divorce, but to give the bill of divorcement if you are going to put away your wife. So what the Pharisees are really saying is that Moses permitted such a divorcement if the man gave a written statement to prove such, and Christ is explaining to them why Moses permitted such.

    As to the KJV verses the NIV, if you think these have the same meaning in this verse I don’t think we do see the same thing.
    Galatians 5: 14
    NIV “The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    KJV “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    The first merely tells us what the law contains, the second tells us how we comply with the Law. In other words, in the KJV Paul is telling the people that once they have received the liberty of faith, if they do not love one another they will not receive salvation, for it is through love that they fulfill the law. This is what I see, anyway.

  79. March 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    I completely agree with you on the following points you made provided I understand you correctly…

    1) “Either way you look at it, it was Moses that allowed such to be the case, which is what Christ confirms”
    2) “…Christ is telling them that Moses allowed this because of the hardness of their hearts” (This is part of a sentence)

    The following points I disagree with and I will tell you why I disagree with them after each point…

    1) “The Pharisees did not make this up, but are taking it from the Law of Moses…” (This is part of a sentence)

    The Pharisees twisted, misinterpreted and mutilated the Law of Moses. Can we really say that they took it from the Law of Moses in the way that God intended?
    Since Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers and the devil’s children because they loved lies rather than the truth, can we trust the words of those who love lies?

    2) “Also note that the command the Pharisees are speaking of is not a command to divorce, but to give the bill of divorcement if you are going to put away your wife”

    I got that impression also when I first read verse 7. Then later I just happened to read it more carefully. The verse says: “.Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?”
    The Pharisees are saying that Moses commanded, not only a bill of divorcement but also the divorce (and to put her away)

    The Pharisees said: “Why did Moses command” Jesus said: “Moses suffered you”

    Even using your words Shem The Pharisees said: “Why did Moses command” Jesus said “Moses allowed it”

    Commanding it is a whole different ball game than allowing it. And Jesus confirmed the command not to divorce when he referred to Genesis. Don’t forget that the Pharisees twisted, misinterpreted and mutilated the scriptures.

    Do you see the Pharisees dirty little deed of “tempting” there? The truth is, Moses never commanded divorce

  80. March 2, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Shem said: “As to the KJV verses the NIV, if you think these have the same meaning in this verse I don’t think we do see the same thing. Galatians 5: 14 NIV “The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” KJV “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
    The first merely tells us what the law contains, the second tells us how we comply with the Law. In other words, in the KJV Paul is telling the people that once they have received the liberty of faith, if they do not love one another they will not receive salvation, for it is through love that they fulfill the law. This is what I see, anyway.”

    Personally I don’t interpret a single verse outside of context. I personally read the surrounding verses. In context, both the NIV and the KJV say the same thing. I personally come to see your interpretation in both Bibles. That is the point I was trying to make.

  81. 82 shematwater
    March 3, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    ECHO

    “can we trust the words of those who love lies?”

    If God confirms that the words are true, which Christ does in this case. Christ does not say, “You are misinterpreting the law,” or “You have twisted Moses words.” He says “Moses suffered you,” which would indicate that what they said was true, and was part of the law, and Christ was simply explaining why it was part of the law.

    As to the command, I still disagree. Moses commanded to give a writing of divorcement, and if you give such a writing you are to put her away. Or, you could say, once you have given such a writing it is no longer lawful for that man to have that woman. The two parts are connected, and in order. In other words, the command is not to divorce her, but if you are going to to write a bill of divorcement, and once that bill is written you have to put her away.

  82. March 4, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    When Jesus says: “Moses suffered you” he is saying he disagrees. If Jesus agreed with them, he would have said: “Yes, that’s right”

  83. 84 shematwater
    March 6, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    ECHO

    When Jesus says: “Moses suffered you” he is saying he agrees. If Jesus disagreed with them, he would have said: “No, that’s wrong.”

  84. March 6, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Moses commanding divorce and Moses suffering(allowing) divorce are not the same thing.

    I can command my son not to ride his bike on the ice.

    If his heart is hardened against my command, I can allow him to go against my will by standing back and not stopping him from making his choice to ride his bike on the ice against my will. (The consequence of falling on the ice while riding his bike, just may unharden his heart by showing him that my commands are for his benefit and good)

    The thing to also notice here is that my son’s heart would not have been hardened against my command to begin with, had I not commanded him not to ride his bike. How could my son’s heart be hardened against my command if I never made the command in the first place.

    As you can see, I commanded one thing, my sons heart was hard so I allowed my son to do the opposite of what I commanded.

  85. 86 shematwater
    March 6, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    ECHO

    I understand your point. I just disagree with it.

    Part of the problem with your analogy is that you proscribe no penalty for disobedience, while God does.

    So, this is more like what I see in reading this.
    I give a command not to ride on the ice, and if he does I will take his bike away from him. My son can’t seem to resist the impulse (hardens his heart). Realizing that he is not mentally capable of obeying that strict command I say, okay. I will remove that command, and allow you to ride on the ice. However, if you choose to do so you have to wear certain clothing for protection. The same penalty is still fixed (removing the bike) but now the command is much less strict, allowing him to choose what he will wear and still engage in the activity.
    A few years later, after he has grown up and is more mature, I tell him that I am re-instating the rule of no riding on the ice. He then says “but you said I could before as long as I wear the protective clothes.” I then explain that because at a younger age he was not yet capable of obey the original command I gave a lesser command that he could obey until he was prepared for the original.

    So, fitting it to the scripture: The command was to not divorce your wife (not ride on the ice) give to Israel (the son), with the penalty of death (proscribed for all adulterers). However, since the people of that time were not yet capable of living that law Moses removed it and replaced it with one that was not so strict, allowing for divorce. However, the same penalty was still fixed to one who did not do so in the proscribed manner.
    Later, when Israel was more prepared, Christ restored that original law. Now the Pharisees are saying “but Moses said we could before as long as we write a bill of divorcement.” To which Christ explains that because they had been unable to follow the original Moses had given them a lesser command to prepare them for the original.

  86. March 8, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Shem said: “Part of the problem with your analogy is that you proscribe no penalty for disobedience, while God does.”

    I assumed you would know there was a penalty since both Mormon’s and Christians believe in penalties.

    Hearts don’t get hard without commands being in place to begin with.

    Shem said: “I give a command not to ride on the ice, and if he does I will take his bike away from him. My son can’t seem to resist the impulse (hardens his heart). Realizing that he is not mentally capable of obeying that strict command I say, okay. I will remove that command, and allow you to ride on the ice. However, if you choose to do so you have to wear certain clothing for protection. The same penalty is still fixed (removing the bike) but now the command is much less strict, allowing him to choose what he will wear and still engage in the activity.”

    When God commands something, he doesn’t change his mind.

  87. 88 shematwater
    March 9, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    ECHO

    “When God commands something, he doesn’t change his mind.”

    That is the difference between us. I think He does. He knows His children, and He has said that He will not tempt us beyond what we are able (1 Corinthians 10: 13). Because He will not do this He will alter His law to fit the abilities of those that receive it. That is what He did in the time of Moses. He offered His full law, but when it caused a temptation greater than the people could bear He withdrew it and replaced it with a lesser law that they could obey.
    This is what Christ is talking about in Matthew; the fact that Moses altered the law to fit the capabilities of the people at the time, even though it was originally the higher law.

  88. March 10, 2012 at 2:36 am

    I respect that you believe differently.

    I can’t personally imagine God altering his law. I am thinking of murderers and even rapists, homosexuals, pedophiles addicted to their sins. I believe when God commands something, he believes we all are able.

  89. 90 shematwater
    March 13, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    ECHO

    Nothing you mentioned did change. I am not talking about the moral law when I say that the law was altered. From the beginning murder has carried the punishment of death. This was true in the days of Adam, as well as Noah, Abraham, and Moses. The laws regarding the basics of moral conduct never changed, and are beautifully outlined in the Ten Commandments.

    What was changed was the laws that governed those things not strictly of a moral nature, usually involving the formal organization and governance of the church.
    Thus before Moses we see sacrifices, but no where near the extent to which they are outlined in the Law of Moses. This change was because the people were so quick to forget their God that they need more frequent reminders.
    We also see before the time of Moses the priesthood having a wider range of people holding it. Melchizedek was a High Priest, as was Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law. Even at the time of the Exodus God says that he planned to give the priesthood to all the first born sons, but then changes this, restricting the lesser priesthood to the tribe of Levi, and requiring that Israel purchase the first born back.
    Divorce is another example of a more administrative change, as outlined by Christ.

    These things are not moral issues of conduct, but are administrative issues of the Kingdom.


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