08
Mar
12

“As man is God once was; as God is, man may become.”

This Sunday, in Gospel Doctrine Class, the study is on 2 Nephi 31-33.  One of the summary statements in the heading of chapter 31 says, “Eternal life comes to those who kept the commandments after baptism.”  Since I posted about eternal life just a couple of months ago (see the post for 1-13-12) and there showed that the Bible says eternal life is the present possession of believers through faith, I thought I would, in this post, explore what Mormonism says about eternal life.  I’m going to do that with quotes from the last chapter of their basic manual, Gospel Principles.  If you would like to read the entire chapter, you can do that on lds.org.

The first thing to note is that Mormonism equates eternal life with exaltation.  “Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” (p. 275)  Note that this says eternal life is not only equal to the kind of life God lives but also to becoming like him.  That is illustrated with the list in the middle: great glory, perfection, possessing all knowledge and wisdom, Father of spirit children, creator.  In other words, Mormonism teaches that people will be able to possess all knowledge and wisdom, that they will become creators etc.

This is expanded a couple of paragraphs later.  (The italics are my emphasis).

“These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).

2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.

4. They will receive a fulness of joy.

5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20).

Mormonism plainly teaches that people can become gods.  I’m emphasizing that because many Mormons have told me that Mormonism doesn’t teach that.  I don’t know how many told me that it says that they will be like God, but not become a god.  But note what this official manual states.  “They will become gods.”  Gods who have everything that Heavenly Father and Jesus have.  And lest we forget, that is what Mormonism is talking about whenever it talks about eternal life.  Eternal life and exaltation are the same thing.

This chapter also includes a couple quotes from Joseph Smith. (Again the italics are mine)  “The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).”

“Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).”

I highlighted that last part because again many Mormons have stated to me that Heavenly Father never was a man. Some have told me that the famous couplet, “As man is, God once was; As God is, man may become”, no longer applies.  When I explored that with them, they said it wasn’t just that this wording is not used that much anymore, but that is not what Mormonism teaches.  It’s obvious that this chapter of their basic manual says otherwise.

The bottom line is that when Mormonism talks about eternal life, it means something vastly different than when Christians talk about it.  (See my January 13th post for a full look at the Christian view.)  This is a point both Mormons and Christians need to keep clearly in mind when talking with each other.

Advertisements

139 Responses to ““As man is God once was; as God is, man may become.””


  1. 1 Joshtried
    March 8, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    As I have stated before, we never teach that we will become “I AM”. We teach that we can become like him.
    There are 2 ways we are already like him: we know of good and evil (thanks to Eve and Adam), & we have eternal life (thanks to Jesus Christ).
    Next, and I posted this elsewhere too, if faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, how much more can more faith do? Move stars? Create heavens?
    If Christ is God (whether trinitarily or separate) & Christ told us to be like him, what do u think that means? Obviously he did not mean to be the savior of this world. But how “like him” are we supposed to be?

  2. March 8, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Here is a great article (written by someone who is LDS and seems to understand things the way I do, so instead of spending time writing out something, I will just let you read his article.)

    Do We Have the Potential to become Like God?

    by Michael W. Fordham (http://www.fairlds.org/authors/fordham-michael/do-we-have-the-potential-to-become-like-god)

    Critics of the Church claim that the LDS religion is blasphemous and even Satanic because we think we can become a god. They use Isaiah 14:12-14 in an attempt to show that wanting to be like God is satanic.

    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    When the critics make these claims, they never explain what LDS doctrine really is. Instead, they give a perverted version of LDS doctrine that Latter-day Saints don’t even recognize as what they believe or are taught. We absolutely do not believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him. He will always be our God. We do not believe that we will take away His glory, but we only add to it by following Christ.

    Latter-Day Saints believe that God is literally the Father of our spirits. We believe we lived in a pre-existence with Him. This pre-existence is another subject, but it should be understood we believe this, so that we can understand that God, in being our Heavenly Father, is not symbolic or figurative; the relationship is literal.

    The Bible tells us that God is the father of our spirits. “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits, and live?”1 More than this, the Bible tells us we are theoffspring of our Heavenly Father. “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.“2 Our physical bodies are the offspring of our mortal parents, and God is the Father of our spirits. Therefore, our spirits are the offspring of God in the very same sense that our bodies are the offspring of our earthly parents. The book of Acts goes on to tell us that since we are the offspring of God, God must be some type of being which we are similar to. “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.”3 The doctrine of the Trinity as accepted by most Christians today is certainly based on the creeds, which are “man’s device.”

    When the Bible tells us of our creation, we are told we were created in the image of God. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”4 If God is literally the Father of our spirits, making us offspring of Him, then we could be called gods ourselves. In fact, the Bible makes this very declaration. “I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”5 Jesus Christ Himself said we were gods: “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.“6 Christ pointed out that Psalm 82:6 was not a mistake or a fluke, for He added the phrase “and the scripture cannot be broken” right after it, stressing that it was accurate and that its meaning could not be argued away.

    Even though we can be called gods, we are not on the same level as God the Father. We are like Him in that we have potential. In other words, being his children, we are in essence gods in embryo, not equal to Him. In order to reach that potential, there is a transformation that we must go through. We cannot go through this transformation without Jesus Christ.

    The Bible talks about this transformation. There were two trees in the Garden of Eden. “And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.“7 Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which changed their state of innocence to our mortal condition we are in now. Once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, our potentiality of becoming like our Heavenly Father was made manifest. “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.”8 However, they also transgressed when they ate, and that would prevent mankind from reaching this full potential, since no unclean thing can enter heaven. To prevent mankind from living eternally in this less-than-full potential state, God evicted Adam and Eve from the Garden and made it impossible for them to eat of the tree of Life. “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”9 Once the fruit of the tree of Life is eaten, then we would live in whatever condition our life has brought us to. Therefore, it is reserved for those who reach their full potential, or in other words, those who overcome. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will i give to eat of the tree of life,which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”10 Those who overcome are those who have obeyed the Lord: “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”11 Among the things that we have been commanded to do is to have the proper ordinances performed (baptism, marriage for eternity, priesthood ordination, etc.), and repent. Without all this, we cannot reach this potential to become a god.

    The Bible also tells us that we can be “one” in the very same sense that Christ and His Father are “one.” Now, if God the Father is God, and Jesus Christ is God, and we can be one with them, then we have the potential to be a god ourselves. A God has glory and is perfect. Glory and perfection are two attributes that belong to God. Christ, when He prayed to His Father, prayed for this very thing, that we might receive glory, and be perfect “even as we.”

    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.12

    To what extent is this glory that we have the opportunity to obtain? The Bible is quite clear that it is the fullness of God that we might have: “And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.“13 But does this “fulness” really have anything to do with the very nature of being a god? It most certainly does.

    “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”14

    The Bible continues to explain that as children, we have the opportunity to inherit everything the Father has: “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”15 The Bible clarifies this inheritance. It tells us that we will inherit the very same thing that Jesus Christ inherits from the Father:

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of god: and if children, then heirs; heirs of god, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.16

    In fact, the Bible tells us that we may have thrones just like the Son and the Father: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”17

    Besides the nature and characteristics of godhood, we are told that our bodies will be just like God’s body. “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”18 Though we may not fully understand this, it will become apparent when Christ returns for the second coming. “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”19

    No true Christian would deny that God is perfect. We have been commanded to be like Him in this respect as well: “Be ye therefore perfect,even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.”20

    Latter-Day Saints who have received the temple ordinances recognize that we can only inherit all things if we are married for eternity. This LDS principle, which is ridiculed by critics of the Church, is also taught by the Bible. “Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”21 Latter-Day Saints are taught that only those who are married for eternity can become as God. Only a god can have spirit children of their own. Thus, the cycle continues, as does our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Why do you think marriage is such a sacred subject in the scriptures? It is not a coincidence that our earthly marriage is a step in preparation for us to reach our full potential of becoming as God.

    In conclusion, when the Bible tells us that . . .

    We were created in the image of God
    God is the father of our spirits
    We are the offspring of God
    Christ calls us gods
    Man has become as God
    We will inherit all things
    We will be co-heirs with Christ of all things
    We will have glory
    We will have thrones
    We will be filled with the fullness of God
    We will be partakers of the divine nature of God
    We will be one with God
    We shall be like Him
    Our bodies will be fashioned like His glorious body
    We can gain perfection

    then yes, I believe we have the potential to become a god ourselves. It is tradition that teaches these things are not true. It is the councils of men that teach these things are not true; it is the Christian Creeds that teach these things are not true. It is the Holy Bible that teaches these things are true. I choose to believe what the Bible teaches.
    Notes

    1 Hebrews 12:9, emphasis added.

    2 Acts 17:28, emphasis added.

    3 Acts 17:29.

    4 Genesis 1:26.

    5 Psalms 82:6, emphasis added.

    6 John 10:34-35, emphasis added.

    7 Genesis 2:9, emphasis added.

    8 Genesis 3:22, emphasis added.

    9 Genesis 3:24.

    10 Revelation 2:7, emphasis added.

    11 Revelation 22:14, emphasis added.

    12 John 17:20-23, emphasis added.

    13 Ephesians 3:19, emphasis added.

    14 2 Peter 1:3-4, emphasis added.

    15 Revelation 21:7, emphasis added.

    16 Romans 8:14-18, emphasis added.

    17 Revelation 3:21, emphasis added.

    18 Phillipians 3:21, emphasis added.

    19 1 John 3:2, emphasis added.

    20 Matthew 5:48, emphasis added.

    21 1 Peter 3:7, emphasis added.

  3. 3 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 12:46 am

    2.And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them–Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths–then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Doctrine and Covenants130:19-20)

    I will preach on the plurality of Gods… I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. . . . Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods (Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370; given August 15, 1844).

    Here then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one. . . . (ibid., 346).

    it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppose that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did… Here then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-47)

    Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.2:

    GODHOOD

    Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints,

    ***the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. ***

    —————————————————————————————————————————————————

    There is only one God, who has eternally existed:

    Isaiah 43:10-11: “I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, and the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”

    Isaiah 44:6: “Thus saith the LORD…I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

    Isaiah 45:22: …and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me….I am God, and there is none else.”

    “And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)

  4. March 9, 2012 at 1:52 am

    Choose,
    What is it that you don’t understand? What you posted does not change or conflict with what I posted. We are not denying that we can become like God, our Father in Heaven. None of the scriptures you posted conflict with our teachings. I guess you just don’t understand and that is because it is meat, not milk.

    Why don’t you ask God for yourself? However, remember, learning the things of God comes line upon line, precept upon precept.

  5. March 9, 2012 at 2:50 am

    Kate

    You ask Choose “What is it that you don’t understand? What you posted does not change or conflict with what I posted.”

    I don’t understand either. Because you say this:

    “I choose to believe what the Bible teaches.”

    yet you reject every Bible passage that directly conflicts with the belief there can be ANY – REPEAT _ ANY other Gods ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

    You don’t believe this one either:

    “5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:”

    How can I say ssch a thing? Simple, because you believe there are other Gods besides HIM. It really is that simple. So let me ask yet again Kate. Do you think God is lying when He says there are no other Gods and does not know of any others? He does know about his supposed parents?

  6. March 9, 2012 at 3:00 am

    David,
    I explained above to Choose and will do again to you, but in other words. You are choosing to harden your heart by selecting a few verses and interpreting it to say what you want it to say, but you see, there are many Bible verses as quoted many times in this subject that show what we believe. Did you even read the article I posted?

  7. March 9, 2012 at 3:08 am

    You also don’t seem to get the difference between God and gods. Also, We put no other God before Him…he is our God..it is He who we worship. We say this over and over, but it seems to get ignored.

  8. 8 joshtried
    March 9, 2012 at 6:31 am

    Lets read what you wrote in a different way, david, if you will.

    I am the LORD, and there is none else, these is no I AM beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

    I understand this is not what is written. I does not mean that it was not what was meant.

  9. 9 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    First of all, I can’t buy into what the Mormons are selling regarding a god who was once a man progressing to a state of absolute sinless perfection. The Bible has never taught this in any way shape or form and is clear that God is invisible and is spirit. It is not possible for any man to obtain a state of absolute sinless perfection and if you believe that you can or will, you are in a serious state of delusion. Do any of you really think that you can be 100% free from sin? If so, are you now and if not, when will you be and please keep in mind that even Mormon teachings say that this must be accomplished in this life.

    Ezekiel 28

    “‘In the pride of your heart
    you say, “I am a god;
    I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas.”
    But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god. ”

    “‘You were the seal of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God;
    every precious stone adorned you:
    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
    topaz, onyx and jasper,
    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
    Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
    15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you.
    16 Through your widespread trade
    you were filled with violence,
    and you sinned.
    So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
    from among the fiery stones.
    17 Your heart became proud
    on account of your beauty,
    and you corrupted your wisdom
    because of your splendor.
    So I threw you to the earth;
    I made a spectacle of you before kings.
    18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
    So I made a fire come out from you,
    and it consumed you,
    and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
    in the sight of all who were watching.
    19 All the nations who knew you
    are appalled at you;
    you have come to a horrible end
    and will be no more.’”

    Second of all, there is only one God who is the creator and source of everything. This statement regarding how Mormons define godhood is a problem:

    ***the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. ***

    How could anyone possibly think that it is ok to place yourself in a position of “having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is”. If you can do as God does and be as God is, that means that you think that you can be a creator and supplier of all things to someone. That means you think you will be god to someone someday. You will be someone’s source of everything, but God has said He is the only source of everything.

    God is not a man that he should lie; neither the Son of Man that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]

    Mormon god walked as a man and sinned which means that he had to have repented to his god everytime he sinned. My God did not lie. My God did not sin. My God is bigger than any man could ever dream of being, he was no sinner, he had no need to repent.

    Romans 1:20-25 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    Mormons are exchanging the glory of God with images of gods who look like human beings. If you are a Mormon, and you believe it is possible for men to become gods, you need to realize that you are stealing God’s glory. Your created things will be worshiping and serving you rather than the Creator. This is idolotry. God abhors idolotry.

    ***the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. ***

    God IS the ONLY God who is ever to be worshiped.

    In Mormonism, there are other gods out there being worshiped by someone, somewhere and there will be other gods created who will be worshiped and served by their creation.

  10. 10 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Mormon Way:

    From the Mormon Encyclopedia: “Latter-day Saints share the ancient biblical doctrine of deification (apotheosis) with Eastern Orthodoxy. Several of early Christianity’s theologians said essentially the same thing as Lorenzo Snow. Irenaeus said, “If the word became a man, it was so men may become gods” (Against Heresies, Book 4. Pref)”

    Deification is the way man becomes God. God himself progressed just like us, having been a man on a different “earth”. LDS church rejects the belief that God created the universe out of nothing, as well as the idea that He is Self-existent, Omnipotent, Unbegotten, Unchanging, and Eternal. God was a man on a distant planet in the timeless past, was faithful to his Father God, and eventually progressed to the point of getting his own universe in which He could be the “God”. There is no natural difference between God and us. Our differences are purely a function of time. God had His Father, who went through the same process of progression on another planet or universe, being faithful to His Father, who had proved faithful to His Father, etc, etc. The “deification” of Mormon theology presupposes an infinite number of gods, each begetting subordinate “gods”, of which the human race represents just another link in the endless chains of gods.

    God’s Way:

    “Jesus Christ, through his transcendent Love, became what we are, that we might be even as he is himself”. (Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol I, pg. 26)

    We are the adopted children of God. A believer who is regenerated by the Spirit of God will progressively be brought into conformity with the image of God (Jesus Christ). We have a spiritual union in Christ that brings us into God’s family, as we commune with Him, we are sanctified and SHARE in His divine nature and qualities. To share in His “divine nature” does not mean to literally be Him. There are qualities of God that cannot be given to His creatures. Among these are God’s traits of being an Infinite Being, such as Omnipotence, Eternality, Omnipresence, etc. If one is a finite creature, one cannot become an “infinite non-creature”.

    Mormonism lowers the standard of God’s divine nature and qualities, by denying or redefining them, and raises the status of man.

  11. 11 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Mormon Encyclopedia (to which I understand that Stephen Robinson contributed):

    “Latter-day Saints share the ancient biblical doctrine of deification (apotheosis) with Eastern Orthodoxy. Several of early Christianity’s theologians said essentially the same thing as Lorenzo Snow. Irenaeus said, “If the word became a man, it was so men may become gods” (Against Heresies, Book 4. Pref)”

    Are Mormons Christians by Stephen Robinson:

    “It has been claimed by some that this is an altogether pagan doctrine that blasphemes the majesty of God. Not all Christians have thought so, however. In the second century Saint Irenaeus, the most important Christian theologian of his time, said much the same thing as Lorenzo Snow: ‘If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods.’ (Against Heresies, Book V, Preface). “

    The Mormon Encyclopedia cites the Fourth Book of Against Heresies, while Robinson attributes it to the Fifth Book.

    Symeon Lash’s entry on Deification in the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology:
    “If the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods”

    Robinson: “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.”

    Vladimir Lossky’s The Vision of God. Lossky writes: For `If the word is made man, it is that men might become gods,’ St. Irenaeus says, and his words will be repeated by the Fathers and theologians from age to age.’

    Irenaeus says at the end of the preface of the Fifth Book that “Jesus Christ, through his transcendent Love, became what we are, that we might be even as he is himself”. (Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol I, pg. 26)

    The section that Robinson quoted is in fact a rejection of Mormon teaching by Irenaeus. Man is a creation of God and there is a big difference between the two. Irenaeus actually has a significant amount of writing that REFUTES mormon ideas and does not support them. Irenaeus showed that the view of the infinite succession of gods begetting other gods to be the heretical creation of Marcion. The writings of Irenaeus are in fact anti-Mormon.

  12. 12 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    In the Mormon cosmos, in order to have each god progressing on its own planet, each creator is molding and forming its own worlds from pre-existent matter. The LDS church is firmly opposed to the orthodox belief that God creating the universe out of nothing.

    Irenaeus, in Book II, Chapter VII, says:

    “While men indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God in this point is pre-eminently superior to men, in that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence.”

    Irenaeus left no doubt that it was the heretics who were arguing for creation out of matter which was an idea that came from Greek philosophy. The Christian position was and always will be that God created the universe out of nothing.

    Irenaeus believed in an eternal, uncreated, omnipotent, God who created the universe out of nothing. It was the heretics who argued about a “Mother” goddess, infinite numbers of deities, and other universes. Since it is exactly these views that most of Ireneaus’ writing is dedicated to refuting, it is totally ridiculous that Mormon scholars would claim that Irenaeus believed in Mormon deification.

    The question of the day: Did Mormon scholars citing Irenaeus ever actually read “Against Heresies”?

  13. 13 Kent
    March 9, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Thank you choosethechrist for sharing these verses as if they don’t serve as a warning for people who want to become gods, then I don’t know what else will. This was directed to the King of Tyre who was being disobedient to God for saying he was a god and he was destroyed for it. So, I believe, anyone who thinks they can become a god is heading down the path to enternal darkness seperated from God forever in hell.

    I know some people already hate me here for simply trying to tell the truth and asking question about what the Mormon Church teaches and yes, I do, by asking questions and expressing doubts about what is taught in their church, pray and hope that they ask the same kind of questions I am asking. But every time I do so I believe the Holy Spirit is telling me to keep on doing so no matter if someone might hate me or not.

    Folks, that is how a lot of people have come out of Mormonism by questioning what they have been taught and that is really what this blog is all about as it is run by a pastor whose ministry is for people to leave Mormonism.

    Ezekiel 28:2-19

    “‘In the pride of your heart
    you say, “I am a god;
    I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas.”
    But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god. ”

    “‘You were the seal of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God;
    every precious stone adorned you:
    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
    topaz, onyx and jasper,
    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
    Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
    15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you.
    16 Through your widespread trade
    you were filled with violence,
    and you sinned.
    So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
    from among the fiery stones.
    17 Your heart became proud
    on account of your beauty,
    and you corrupted your wisdom
    because of your splendor.
    So I threw you to the earth;
    I made a spectacle of you before kings.
    18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
    So I made a fire come out from you,
    and it consumed you,
    and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
    in the sight of all who were watching.
    19 All the nations who knew you
    are appalled at you;
    you have come to a horrible end
    and will be no more.’”

  14. 14 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    The divinization of man, the religion of man as the new God, is paganism.

    Paganism’s favorite Scripture is “judge not.” The only judgment is the judgment against judging.

    Each pagan has become a god or goddess, a giver of law rather than receiver.

    Pagan religion is de-divinized. God is not the Lord of All, not transcendent but immanent, not super-natural but natural.

    Paganism is a great triumph of wishful thinking. The shine of religion is not lost, the terror of God is removed. Paganism stoutly rejects “the fear of God”, but the Bible calls fear “the beginning of wisdom”.

    Paganism is a joining of forces by these enemies of God: humanism and polytheism.

    The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church.

  15. 15 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm

  16. March 9, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Josh

    “Lets read what you wrote in a different way, david, if you will.

    I am the LORD, and there is none else, these is no I AM beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

    I understand this is not what is written. I does not mean that it was not what was meant.”

    First, I didn’t write what Isaiah said – God did.

    So God really didn’t write what he meant? It DOES mean that how you rewrote it is NOT how it is meant. He didn’t say there is no “I AM besides me” He said there is no GOD besides Him. Thats what he means. Still sounding an awful lot like “did God really say” to Eve doesn’t it. Josh – instead of adding things, making assumptions, and going to great lengths to say the Bible means something it does NOT say, try believing what it actually does say.

    How about if I tell you that what you wrote is not really what you meant? Tell me, just what else did God not mean when He said it? What else did God, the creator of the universe not get right?

  17. 17 shematwater
    March 9, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    DAVID

    Since God (with the big ‘G’) is a title of authority which is synonymous with the title “I Am” than Josh’s rendering of the verse has changed nothing. It has merely clarified it.

    Now, what really gets annoying is the constant ignoring of everything that we have said. You ask Kate “Do you think God is lying when He says there are no other Gods and does not know of any others?” And yet I have already answered this question on another thread. You may reject the answer all you want, but it will not change, so why do you insist on repeating the question.
    To sum up: The Bible is talking about this Earth, and in that context there is no other God. God was not lying, he was just keeping the discussion focused.

    CHOOSE

    “Mormon god walked as a man and sinned”

    Never call my God a sinner. I don’t care how many people choose to cling to this false belief. Such an idea is repugnant to anyone with any sensibility.
    “The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power — to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious — in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.” (King Follett Discourse).
    God the Father lived a life just like Christ, of sinless perfection. He was the savior of his generation, just as surely as Christ is the savior or ours. To say he sinned is to insult Him and mock His glory.

  18. March 9, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    Shem

    “Since God (with the big ‘G’) is a title of authority which is synonymous with the title “I Am” than Josh’s rendering of the verse has changed nothing. It has merely clarified it.”

    If it made no difference from what was originally written, than it wouldn’t have had to be rewritten. The chenge in meaning in Josh’s revision is not at all subtle or illusive. It means there can’t be another Him specifically, when to orignal is that there can be NONE other. It is not a clarification, it is a corruption.

    “You ask Kate “Do you think God is lying when He says there are no other Gods and does not know of any others?” And yet I have already answered this question on another thread.”

    I appreciate you gave answer, but I was asking Kate for her answer.

  19. 19 shematwater
    March 9, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    Let me comment on a few scriptures.

    Isaiah 43:10-11: “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.”

    Isaiah 44:6: “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

    Isaiah 45: 21-22: “Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
    Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

    John 17:3m “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    (Note that these were quoted by Choose, though not in their entirety, and some were not correctly referenced.)

    First, let us consider Isaiah 44: 6 and john 17: 3 together. Both of these mention two different beings. In Isaiah it is the ‘Lord the King of Israel and the Lord of Hosts.” In John is God and Jesus Christ. Isaiah the message is coming from both of them, in John it is about both of them. In Isaiah the Lord of Hosts is placed under the King of Israel. In John Christ is placed under God. What does this tell us?
    This tells us that the God, the King of Israel, is the the supreme being, the ruler of heaven and earth. It also tell us that the Lord of Hosts, or Jesus Christ, serves God and does his will. Clearly this speaks of two different and distinct individuals. However, in Isaiah they are speaking as one, declaring only a single God. This merely shows that the term God (with the big ‘G’) is a title that both of them share, and as such can both claim. It also shows the unity of them, and thus shows that, while one is clearly the leader, both join together to form a governing body.
    Both of these verse prove the existence of at least two different Gods working together to achieve the same goal.

    Now, let us consider Isaiah 43: 10-11 and 45: 21-22. We must make note of the reference to the Savior in both passages. This is Christ talking, declaring his Godhead as well as his specific role as Savior. Also the statements are made using God with the big ‘G’, indicating that he is speaking of the title, and thus the office of God, not the state of godhood. What do we conclude?
    in neither case is He saying that no other gods exist, but that there is none besides Him who holds the title of God and is savior of the world. This is perfectly true.

    So, none of these verse contradict our doctrine.

  20. 20 shematwater
    March 9, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    DAVID

    My point is that the verse is not speaking about gods, but about God, or the title of worship. However, since this distinction can get confusing to those who do not understand the truths of the gospel Josh substituted a synonymous title that was less confusing.
    i get that you do agree with this, but that doesn’t mean a whole lot. The point is that from our perspective the two have the same meaning, and so to teach this meaning by making the substitution is not a corruption of anything, but a clarification.

  21. 21 choosethechrist
    March 9, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    “God the Father lived a life just like Christ, of sinless perfection. He was the savior of his generation, just as surely as Christ is the savior or ours. To say he sinned is to insult Him and mock His glory.” ~ Shem

    God the Father was not born of man, God the Father is the begining and the end. God the Father has always existed, he had no father.

    So, from what I can tell regarding what Shem said, only men who are born perfect and sinless will get to be Mormon gods. Hey, that means that Jesus IS God!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where does that leave everybody else in the whole LDS can of worms? What makes any LDS person think they can be exalted and if not what’s the point in all of that sacred stuff going on in the Temple? How many LDS out there are being born sinless and perfect? How many modern day Christs are out there walking among us?

    And, for those who do believe that god the father was just a regular man who repented of his sins and was eventually able to stop sinning and live a live of sinless perfection, what makes you think any man can obtain a state of sinless perfection and live a life 100% free from sin?

    BTW, there are plenty of LDS out there who believe that god the father did sin.

    http://www.mrm.org/god-never-sinned

  22. 22 shematwater
    March 9, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    CHOOSE

    I never said there weren’t those who think this. I merely said they are wrong, and in my opinion insult God with that belief.

    As to your understanding, you fail to see anything because you try to understand our doctrine in the context of your doctrine, and thus you end up twisting it.

    “only men who are born perfect and sinless will get to be Mormon gods”
    Wrong. For one thing all people are born perfect and sinless. Christ is simply the only one on this planet that remained that way throughout his life, and the Father is the only one who did so in the previous generation. Second, it is only those who live a perfect and sinless life that can be the savior of their generation, and thus can claim the title of God. This has nothing to do with attaining godhood.
    Godhood is attainable for all those who surrender their will completely to the Father and follow Christ. it does not require a life of sinless perfection, but a striving for sinless perfection. This goal will likely not be attained until well after this life.

    “What makes any LDS person think they can be exalted”

    Matthew 19:26 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
    Mark 9:23 “Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.”
    Mark 10:27 “And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.”
    Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

    I tend to believe the Bible.

  23. March 9, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    Shem

    “i get that you do agree with this, but that doesn’t mean a whole lot. The point is that from our perspective the two have the same meaning, and so to teach this meaning by making the substitution is not a corruption of anything, but a clarification.”

    The point is rewriting scripture to suit your beliefs is a corruption. I know that this can get in the way of those following a belief outside of what the Bible teaches that there can be more Gods or God like things. That’s what Josh’s revision does. He does what Joseph SMith did. You start with a false teaching and then rewrite the Bible to suit your needs and say you did it because the Bible was corrupted or God didn’t get it write (without ever having clue of what the original text says). The truth is God is God period and there are no others. But I can’t make you believe it. God does not say there are some gods but just no more of Him in particular. Josh’s revision reduces this passage to a meaningless statement.

    Since Josh changed God’s scripture, let me change his:

    1. I am the MAN, and there is none else, these is no Bereandave beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

    Lets look at it this way now:

    2. I am GOD ALMIGHTY, and there is none else, there is no GOD ALMIGHTY beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Why would God have to say something like the first one which is nothing more than saying there are not two of HIm. I can see you how you would like these two have the same meaning, but that doesn’t square with what the words say. It not a reasonable interpretation unless you need it to say that very awkward and meaningless construction. My God didn’t say that and that is certainly not what He meant. Josh’s revision is a corruption.

  24. 24 JBR
    March 9, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    “As man is God once was; as God is, man may become”

    You correct Mark, that is what Mormonism plainly teaches that people can become gods.
    Satan said the same thing to Adam & Eve…. “you cna be like God”.

    It’s so unfortunate that those who believe this will be damned for it.. they will be the servant who will be thrown into (outer) darkness.

  25. 25 JBR
    March 9, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    should read……… Satan said the same thing to Adam & Eve…. “you can be like God”.

  26. March 9, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    JBR, you said: “Satan said the same thing to Adam & Eve…. “you can be like God”.

    It’s so unfortunate that those who believe this will be damned for it.. they will be the servant who will be thrown into (outer) darkness.”

    How do you explain Genesis 3:22?

    Satan deceived Eve by mixing error with truth. We can see this in Genesis 3:4-5

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (The Lie)

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Truth – go to verse 22)

    22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (Does God lie?)

  27. 27 shematwater
    March 10, 2012 at 12:08 am

    DAVID

    And once again it comes down to interpretation. If we accept your interpretation then the accusation of corruption may stand. However, if we accept our interpretation there is no corruption and the accusation is false.

  28. March 10, 2012 at 12:08 am

    Kate

    Let me answer this one since I asked you. You asked JBR “Does God Lie?” Certainly not! God never lies and He never makes mistakes! So knowing that God can’t possibly lie what does God mean in that verse. Lets look at the whole verse. “22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:” He means man has become as one of us only with respect to what he said “to know good and evil.” That one way is how man became like God. But then unlike God what did it do to man? It caused him to eventually die, it brought sin into the world, it caused man to be seperated from God, it tossed man out of paradise, it meant man deserved to be cast into the outer darkness, it meant God would have to intervene if we were to be restored to life with Him, and it would demand a price so high it would be impossible for man to pay it. Of course we know God doesn’t die even though He has this knowledge. What greater gift can there be than for man to be restored to a right relationship with God, live with Him and have a heart like Him were He gives us blessings that no mind has even conceived of. Of course God nevers lies and He always protects His Word – God Almighty is Mighty to save.

  29. March 10, 2012 at 12:10 am

    Kate said: “How do you explain Genesis 3:22? Satan deceived Eve by mixing error with truth. We can see this in Genesis 3:4-5 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (The Lie) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Truth – go to verse 22) 22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (Does God lie?)”

    Here is how we explain this…

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (The Lie)

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (A lie insinuating they can become “A” god.)

    22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (The Truth – Adam and Eve fell for the lie and believed they were gods)

    Consequence of believing we can become a god = Death. (Physically and spiritually)

  30. March 10, 2012 at 12:49 am

    “as one of us”. So actually you guys are telling me that it’s ok to put extra words in God’s mouth. You are saying that even though he specifically says “as one of us” that he doesn’t mean as a god, only that he means “in one way, as one of us”. I’m perplexed by that notion since if I put words in God’s mouth, I would be condemned. Gotta run, so won’t be able to comment more until later tonight.

  31. March 10, 2012 at 3:22 am

    Kate,

    God said: “as one of us”, what is that referring to? It is referring to “A God”. Then add the rest: “knowing good and evil”. We have: A God knowing Good and Evil. And in the case of Adam, a god knowing good and evil.

  32. March 10, 2012 at 3:45 am

    Echo, Isn’t that what we are saying? You have me confused. We say, we can progress to be like God, but with a little ‘g’. Isn’t that what you just said?

  33. March 10, 2012 at 4:22 am

    Yes Kate that is what I am saying.

  34. 34 joshtried
    March 10, 2012 at 4:37 am

    David:
    Kate Let me answer this one since I asked you. You asked JBR “Does God Lie?” Certainly not! God never lies and He never makes mistakes! So knowing that God can’t possibly lie what does God mean in that verse. Lets look at the whole verse. “22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:” He means man has become as one of us only with respect to what he said “to know good and evil.” That one way is how man became like God. But then unlike God what did it do to man? It caused him to eventually die, it brought sin into the world, it caused man to be seperated from God, it tossed man out of paradise, it meant man deserved to be cast into the outer darkness, it meant God would have to intervene if we were to be restored to life with Him, and it would demand a price so high it would be impossible for man to pay it. Of course we know God doesn’t die even though He has this knowledge. What greater gift can there be than for man to be restored to a right relationship with God, live with Him and have a heart like Him were He gives us blessings that no mind has even conceived of. Of course God nevers lies and He always protects His Word – God Almighty is Mighty to save.

    I discussed this in very much the same way earlier, yet you seem to reject what i said…
    You say: “He means man has become as one of us only with respect to what he said “to know good and evil.” That one way is how man became like God. But then unlike God what did it do to man? It caused him to eventually die”
    Then you say: “Of course we know God doesn’t die even though He has this knowledge.”

    JOSH said “and Christ makes it possible for us to have ETERNAL LIFE”

    SO.. we are like God in 2 ways… and in his image… (BTW, if God was only a spirit, and ONLY made Flesh once he was Christ, what image were we crafted out of?) We are LIKE God in a plethora of ways…

  35. 35 joshtried
    March 10, 2012 at 4:40 am

    Choose, you said this:
    “Mormon god walked as a man and sinned which means that he had to have repented to his god everytime he sinned.”

    I quote you veer-batem now out of KJV
    Genesis 6:
    7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

  36. 36 joshtried
    March 10, 2012 at 4:47 am

    David:
    apparently you did not like my interpretation of how that read (I AM….).. I have never read the original Text, so i dont know EXACTLY what is supposed to be there. Have you? Can you tell me that it did not have God’s name in that spot? I know that the name of God was considered so sacred that it was not to be used… As such, you use the NEXT CLOSEST WORD. As i have said many times, i have not read everything, i am merely offering a different point of view, and a theory to WHY something MIGHT read differently. I am not a prophet, i am just someone trying to understand, and trying to help others do the same.

  37. 37 joshtried
    March 10, 2012 at 5:00 am

    I want to add to this Echo… this might not be correct, but i think it an interesting thing, so lets roll with it

    “Consequence of believing we can become a god = Death. (Physically and spiritually)”

    Consequence of believing CHRIST (that we can become LIKE HIM) = Eternal life (physically and spiritually)

    Since you accept that Christ is God, and Christ said to be like him, then we must change your statement just a little bit, and mine just a little bit. lets see what happens :)

    Consequence of believing we can become a God = (knowledge of good and evil, eternal life, being in God’s image, having limitless faith, and thereby limitless power, OR) Becoming a God

  38. 38 joshtried
    March 10, 2012 at 5:01 am

    the above statement is NOT SAYING we usurp I AM in any way… dont get it twisted

  39. March 10, 2012 at 5:20 am

    Josh, the consequence of believing we can become a god is still death. (Physically and spiritually)
    We can become like Christ but we don’t become a Christ, God is God and we are not gods.

    We are being renewed/restored day by day into the image of our creator. The image Adam and Eve had BEFORE the fall. They were not gods before the fall.

  40. 40 choosethechrist
    March 10, 2012 at 5:37 am

    For Josh:

    Genesis 6:5-7
    And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    Taken in context, God is revealing his deep sadness.

    Hebrew word for repent=nacham. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says that nacham “implies difficulty in breathing: ‘to pant,’ ‘to sigh,’ ‘to groan’. In this case it means ‘to lament’ or ‘to grieve’.

    I’m not sure what this has to do with my prior statement:

    “Mormon god walked as a man and sinned which means that he had to have repented to his god everytime he sinned.”

  41. 41 choosethechrist
    March 10, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    Shem said,
    “God the Father lived a life just like Christ, of sinless perfection. He was the savior of his generation, just as surely as Christ is the savior or ours. To say he sinned is to insult Him and mock His glory.”
    Shem said,
    “Second, it is only those who live a perfect and sinless life that can be the savior of their generation, and thus can claim the title of God. This has nothing to do with attaining godhood.”

    ***the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. *** ~ Mormon Encyclopedia

    If it has nothing to do with attaining godhood, then why is it defined that way in the Mormon Encyclopedia?

    Shem said,

    Godhood is attainable for all those who surrender their will completely to the Father and follow Christ. it does not require a life of sinless perfection, but a striving for sinless perfection. This goal will likely not be attained until well after this life.

    *****”People qualify themselves for this rank and degree of exaltation by bringing themselves fully in line with all that God has commanded them to do: ********”Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God,…namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power” (TPJS, pp. 346-47).”

    “It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

    “No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right.” ~The Miracle of Forgiveness (Also cited in The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50; and Search These Commandments, 1984 ed., pp.81-82.)

    Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

    The next question that comes to mind based on what Shem has said is this, where is Jesus?

    Is Jesus at the right hand of God: Jesus returned to Father sitting down showing his work is done. Jn.14:28, 16:16,17, 20:17. Jesus at the right hand of God the Father Acts 2:32-35, Heb.10:12, Eph. 1:20, 1 Pt. 3:22. He is now functioning in his high priestly ministry Rom.8:34; Heb. 4:14-16, 7:24-25.

    Or, is Jesus playing god on his own planet procreating little spirit babies with a mother god?

  42. 42 choosethechrist
    March 10, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    “The God of Joseph Smith is a daring revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the true religion….Mormonism is a purely American Gnosis, for which Joseph Smith was and is a far more crucial figure than Jesus could be.” ~ Harold Bloom

    Gnosticism: the realisation of Gnosis (intuitive knowledge), is the way to salvation of the soul from the material world.

    Words of Joseph Smith:

    “There are but very few beings in the world who understand rightly the character of God,”

    “If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend their own character.”

    “Within humankind there is an immortal spark of intelligence a seed of divine intellect or light which is as immortal as, and coequal with, God Himself.”

    “He who humankind calls God was Himself once a man; and man, by advancing in intelligence, knowledge – consciousness – may be exalted with God, become as God.”

    Tertullian and Irenaeus’ rebuttal of the Gnostic heresies:

    “Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures; and, to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand, while they endeavour to adapt with an air of probability to their own peculiar assertions the parables of the Lord, the sayings of the prophets, and the words of the apostles, in order that their scheme may not seem altogether without support.” ~ Irenaeus

    “either we must deny that God is the great Supreme, which no wise man will allow himself to do; or say that God has no one else with whom to share His power.” ~ Tertullian

    “Just as early Gnostic teachers de-contextualized and reordered Scripture to support their predetermined philosophies, so the Mormon church has chosen “proof-texts” from the Bible to show support for their new teachings. Irenaeus refuted new teachings that opposed the accepted Scripture and doctrine of the church, and relied on the authority of the apostles and the accepted creed of the church to reject new teachings that seek to redefine the gospel. In addition, Tertullian gives us a guide in rejecting the multiple gods found in both Gnosticism and Mormonism, showing that multiple gods are no god at all. He continues in reinforcing the validity and sufficiency of Scripture in refuting new and different doctrine, showing us that the whole of the Scripture, Old Testament and New, hangs together in providing an orthodox view of God and man and in rejecting Gnostic and Mormon heresy.” ~Tommy Knighten

  43. 43 Kent
    March 10, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Shem said, “Godhood is attainable for all those who surrender their will completely to the Father and follow Christ. it does not require a life of sinless perfection, but a striving for sinless perfection. This goal will likely not be attained until well after this life.”

    Shem also said,” No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!”

    The Bible says nothing about having a chance after our lives to progress so yes our eternal fate is sealed once we die and we are assigned our place in eternity the saved, to heaven, and the condemned to Hell. So unbelievers, who the Bible says are condemned which is affirmed by Webster’s dictionary in this context, to be pronounced guilty, convicted, and sentenced to die a spiritual death in Hell. Condemned doesn’t mean someone gets to live after they die in even a lower heaven that is better than anything here on earth.

    So the Bible does not say, “he who does not believe at least gets to live in glory in a place called the telestial kingdom.”

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    John 3:16-18

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Definition of CONDEMN
    transitive verb

    1: to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation

    2 a: to pronounce guilty : CONVICT b: SENTENCE, DOOM

  44. 44 Kent
    March 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I know Shem or one of the other Mormons may say that someone can be condemned to a lessor penalty than death but the bible says the wages of sin is death, in this case the sin of unbelief. So unbelievers are not rewarded with any glory at all in a place that is better than anything here on earth but they are condemned to hell.

    John 3:13

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Romans 6:23

    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

    On the other hand, believers are given eternal life, a free gift that doesn’t require any conpensation on their part.

    Definition of Gift

    1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment

    2: SOMETHING VOLUNTARILY TRANSFERRED BY ONE PERSON TO ANOTHER WITHOUT COMPENSATION

    3: the act, right, or power of giving

  45. March 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Kent, you said, The Bible says nothing about having a chance after our lives to progress so yes our eternal fate is sealed once we die and we are assigned our place in eternity the saved, to heaven, and the condemned to Hell.

    Please explain to me these scriptures (1 Peter 3:19-22, 4:6) then, which tell us that after Christ died on the cross, those who were in spirit prison, were taught repentance and baptism?

    I believe that many people do not understand that God’s time is not the same as how we experience time. It’s assumed that we know how quick time will be once we die and the final judgement comes. I believe we cannot even comprehend that space of time between our death and final judgement and that during that time, those who are there will be taught truth and will be given the opportunity to progress.

  46. March 10, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Josh

    I should have done this earlier. You said

    “I have never read the original Text, so i dont know EXACTLY what is supposed to be there. Have you? Can you tell me that it did not have God’s name in that spot?”

    It did not.

    We were talking about your revision of Isaiah 45:5. The KJV says:

    “5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:”

    The transliterated word for “LORD” from the original Hebrew is “Y@hovah,” the proper name for the LORD. Jehovah means “the existing ONE.”
    the word “GOD” in this verse is the transliterated word “elohiym”. This word is NOT the proper name of the LORD. Elohiym means : (plural) rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods; (plural intensive – singular meaning) god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God, the (true) God, God.
    Here is the link to an online interlinear bible if you would like to check for yourself. http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Isaiah+45%3A5&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na

    I hope this helps.

  47. 47 JBR
    March 10, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    Kate,
    Sorry for being tardy about your question on Genesis 3:22……

    The way I would say is that Adam and Eve (at this point Genesis 3:22) now realized that to to be less than perfect as God demands makes them evil in the sight of God.

    They now know this is unacceptable as well as God knows this.
    The point of God doing what he did in Genesis 3:22 was to prevent them from living forever in their sinfulness condition.

    God will not tolerate (and does not) anybody who thinks one can be “like him”… it is a lie that Satan uses to think such is tolerated let alone possible.

  48. 48 JBR
    March 10, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    Kate,
    And about 1 Peter 3:19-22, 4:6 ……….

    Jesus didn’t go to preach a “saving message” so that people were allowed to get out of hell.

    That is simply another lie Satan tells letting people think that they are given the opportunity to leave. The only hting these people saw was Jesus leaving after he proved them wrong and Satan defeated.

  49. 49 shematwater
    March 10, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    CHOOSE

    You again choose to twist our doctrine, as you do not understand it.

    The title of God is not synonymous with the state of godhood. Godhood is to be in possession of all the attribute of deity and have the power to continue your line by having children in the spirit. The title of God is a testament of authority over all those who have attained godhood in your generation.
    In order to have the title of God, and thus have authority over all the gods of your generation, one must be the savior of that generation, and thus must live a completely sinless life.
    In order to attain the state of godhood one must completely surrender their will to the one holding the title of God for their generation.

    As to where Christ is, I don’t really feel like answering as all you are doing is mocking me and my beliefs. In this case I feel strongly that to do so would be casting my pearls to swine. You have no respect, nor do you even try to think things out.
    Simply put, you should know the answer already, and until you begin to respect what I believe I will give you no more help in understanding it.

    KENT

    Spiritual Death is to be separated from God. Thus any condition in which we are not in the presence of God is a spiritual death.
    In this life we are spiritual dead, for our sins have separated us from God. This means that we have already received those wages, and thus that verse does not apply to the eternities.
    In the eternities all those who are not in the Celestial Kingdom will be in a kind of spiritual death, for they will not be in the presence of the Father.

    DAVID

    “the word “GOD” in this verse is the transliterated word “elohiym”. This word is NOT the proper name of the LORD.”

    You are right. This word is the proper name for the Father (Christ is the Lord). As such, while the title “I AM” is only applied to the Son, I think Josh was perfectly correct in his clarification.
    You are also correct in saying that this word is plural, which signifies that the Father is the Head of the Gods, and unique title for himself, not shared with Christ.
    So, now that we have that clarified, I would like to amend Josh’s clarification.
    “I am the LORD, and there is none else, these is no Head beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me”

    One quick question, since you seem to have the original on hand: In this same verse what is the word LORD translated from?

  50. 50 choosethechrist
    March 10, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    1 Peter 3:17-20 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    I have read a few theories as to what some think this means, but the reality is that we can’t know for sure. The context of chapter 3 is the sufferings of Christians at the hands of the world in comparison to Christ’s suffering at the hands of the world. In spite of suffering, there is good news for us because Christ was made alive again and we also will be made alive again just as Christ was.

    Notice what the verse says, Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit. So, we can see that it was through the Holy Spirit that Christ was resurrected and we can see that in verse 19 that it was through the Holy Spirit that Christ preached to “the spirits in prison”. Since it does not say that this happened between the time of Christ’s death and resurrection nor does it tell us what was “preached”, we can not make any assumptions about what this means nor do we need to. This is where Mormons try to fill in the blanks, but because we know what the Bible says we can say for sure that this does not mean that Jesus went to preach the gospel to the spirits in prison so that the spirits in prison could be saved because:

    The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27). There is no salvation after death. The spiritual condition in which a person dies is that which he will possess at the time of the general resurrection (cf. Matthew 25:1-12). There is no second chance for redemption following death.

    According to Christ regarding the rich man and Lazarus, within the spirit-world there is a great gulf “fixed” between the place where evil people abide and the state where good people exist (see Luke 16:26).

    The verb “fixed,” in the Greek Testament, is a perfect tense form, suggesting that the gulf is forever fixed. It can’t be crossed. The Lord would not have preached to those in a state of punishment, tantalizing them with the hope of salvation, when they had no chance of entering Paradise

  51. March 11, 2012 at 1:18 am

    JBR, I don’t quite understand what you are trying to day. Also, you still haven’t explained 1 Peter 4:6. Are you saying that this verse is a lie that satan put in the Bible?

  52. March 11, 2012 at 1:18 am

    *say* (I wish there was an edit button ;o)

  53. March 11, 2012 at 1:49 am

    Choose, you said, “The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27).”

    Yes, but it doesn’t say how much time is between death and the judgement. That was what I said earlier. For you to say otherwise is adding your own thoughts into the verse.

  54. March 11, 2012 at 1:50 am

    Choose: “we can not make any assumptions about what this means nor do we need to. This is where Mormons try to fill in the blanks,”

    And as you see here, you are telling us that we do this. So it’s ok for you, but not for us?

  55. 55 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 1:51 am

    Shem said “In order to have the title of God, and thus have authority over all the gods of your generation, one must be the savior of that generation, and thus must live a completely sinless life.
    In order to attain the state of godhood one must completely surrender their will to the one holding the title of God for their generation.”

    and

    “As to where Christ is, I don’t really feel like answering as all you are doing is mocking me and my beliefs. In this case I feel strongly that to do so would be casting my pearls to swine. You have no respect, nor do you even try to think things out. Simply put, you should know the answer already, and until you begin to respect what I believe I will give you no more help in understanding it.”

    I’m not trying to mock anyone. I think this is a valid question because I know the Bible says Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, but Jesus (big G) in mormonism must be ruling on his own planet based on what I am seeing here. If Shem won’t answer the question, I guess we can assume that mormon Jesus is on his own planet making spirit babies and he is not sitting at the right hand of God as the Bible says.

  56. 56 Joshtried
    March 11, 2012 at 2:02 am

    If Jesus is always sitting at Gods right hand then he can not return for the second coming. Obviously Jesus has other thing to do than just sit around. are you so conceited to think this is the ONLY world were life is? How many BILLIONS orplanets in our galaxy, let alone the universe, and you relegate Christ to one spot in the universe?

  57. March 11, 2012 at 2:32 am

    It truly amazes me how much people will limit God. Choose, do you think that “sitting at the right hand of God” means that this is all Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ do?

    I’m very curious. Are you of the belief that when we die, it’s all about God and Jesus sitting on a throne and we stand/sit around singing praises for eternity?

    I really have to think that with the immensity of space and the limitlessness of time, that there is more to Eternal life than that. It seems to me that if you pay attention to the patterns around you that God has placed here, and created in all things, that those patterns are there for a reason? They teach truths about the mysteries of God. Did you ever wonder why if He created us in His image, placed us here in families as newborn babes to grow and learn and develop our minds, He would not have us continue that growth and development even after this life? Have you ever wondered that since we are to be like Christ, follow Him, do all that He did, which the Bible teaches that he increased in wisdom…that this is what he wants us all to do?

    Colossians 1:10-12 says, “That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in Light.”

    Remember, He wants us to be perfect (completed or finished is a better definition), even as your Father in Heaven is perfect (completed or finished).

    Remember we are heirs of God. Romans 8:16-17

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. I am just usually amazed that some people put a cap on Heaven and limit what happens after this life.

  58. 58 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 3:16 am

    Kate said “Choose, you said, “The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27).”

    Yes, but it doesn’t say how much time is between death and the judgement. That was what I said earlier. For you to say otherwise is adding your own thoughts into the verse.”

    I didn’t say anything about how much time passes between death and judgement.

    However, there obviously is something that has to take place that results in the separation of the righteous from the wicked right after death. I said there are no second chances after death (the mormon church did not exist until 1830 so there were no mormon missionaries offering the mormon gospel to Lazarus or the rich man and the mormon gospel is a false gospel anyway so the whole spirit prison thing doesn’t work here and the Bible doesn’t say “spirit prison” it says spirits in prison) and there is no crossing over from heaven to hell:

    According to Christ regarding the rich man and Lazarus, within the spirit-world there is a great gulf “fixed” between the place where evil people abide and the state where good people exist (see Luke 16:26).

    The verb “fixed,” in the Greek Testament, is a perfect tense form, suggesting that the gulf is forever fixed. It can’t be crossed. The Lord would not have preached to those in a state of punishment, tantalizing them with the hope of salvation, when they had no chance of entering Paradise.

    Luke 16:19-31

    19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

    21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    *****26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.******************

    27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

    28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

    31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

  59. 59 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 3:39 am

    Kate said, “Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. I am just usually amazed that some people put a cap on Heaven and limit what happens after this life.”

    What amazes me are the fairy tales that some people make up regarding what the after life will be like and that they then bottle it up and sell it as truth.

    I believe what the Bible says regarding heaven and beyond that it really doesn’t matter exactly what I will be doing and it is not important for me to know exactly what it will be like.

    What would make anyone think it has to be like what the mormons are selling especially when there is not one single word in the Bible that indicates anything close to temple marriage, eternal marriage, and eternal families. If all of these things were so important for the “exaltation” of man, why are they not specifically spoken about by Jesus himself or by any of the apostles? Eternal marriage/families were SO important that God withheld all of that very important information for Joseph Smith to reveal in 1830. I don’t think so. There sure is a lot of talk about God and Jesus in my Bible though. I think I’ll stick with that.

  60. 60 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 3:42 am

    Josh said “If Jesus is always sitting at Gods right hand then he can not return for the second coming. Obviously Jesus has other thing to do than just sit around. are you so conceited to think this is the ONLY world were life is? How many BILLIONS orplanets in our galaxy, let alone the universe, and you relegate Christ to one spot in the universe?”

    I’m going to take that to mean that the mormons really do think that Jesus is out there making babies on his own planet, but for some reason none of the LDS people here really want to come out and say that.

  61. March 11, 2012 at 4:03 am

    Choose, maybe you think that because we have it wrong, that it’s ok to be so sacrilegious and speak of Christ in such a mocking way. I don’t think so.

  62. 62 JBR
    March 11, 2012 at 5:52 am

    Kate,
    What I was trying to say is that when God spoke Genesis 3:22 that Adam & Eve was “like us” … is not the context in which you’re wanting it to be.

    What happened is that Adam and Eve by eating the fruit they wanted to have only what is the prerogative of God..being the judge of what is good and evil. You will never be what Mormonism claims … ““As man is God once was; as God is, man may become.””.

    Regarding 1 Peter 4:6 …… I’m saying that Satan is lying to you when it is believed that Jesus went to preach to those in hell so that those who are there will be taught truth and will be given the opportunity to progress.

    Jesus revealed that after death there is nothing more than judgement and once judged that’s where one will exist forever and ever.

    No one will be allowed to enter heaven based on obeying the law \ keeping the commands. Either it’s 100% Jesus effort that is credited or 100% your own. There is no such thing as a savior after “all you can do”.

  63. March 11, 2012 at 7:15 am

    JBR: “I’m saying that Satan is lying to you”

    I can say the same thing to you. JBR, Satan is lying to you when you believe the interpretation you have put to the Bible verses you are reading. Any verses that back up what we teach, you claim Satan is lying to us.

    Jesus did not reveal that after death there is nothing more than judgement. You cannot back that up with scripture, so you are teaching a false precept.

    You said, “No one will be allowed to enter heaven based on obeying the law \ keeping the commands”

    No, you say that as if you think we teach that we don’t need Christ. You just don’t understand…or choose not to understand what we believe.

    You condemn us constantly. You would that we would be forbidden to enter the Kingdom of God. Heaven forbid that someone loves Christ enough and has faith enough to desire to obey Him and keep His commandments, knowing that without Him, they could not enter the Kingdom of God and being grateful for the Atonement that allows them to enter. Heaven forbid that someone progresses in the knowledge of God because they are doing the very things that Christ asked them to do in order to become like Him.

    We have truth. I wonder what Christ thinks every time you slam us and tell us we are following Satan’s lies. That would mean you are calling God’s truths Satan’s lies.

  64. 64 JBR
    March 11, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Kate,
    Jesus did so reveal that … in that once a person dies, one is judged.
    In fact Jesus reveal that the verdict is already pronounced by God while alive.

    Those like me already have been declared perfect by God because we are doing the “work” that God requires. We have what you call “exaltation”… now.

    However, those who reject what God requires now are believing a lie that such rejection at death is not the finality.

    No Kate, the truth doesn’t reside in Mormonism. What you think is “slamming” is not simply happening. You’re simply wantonly refusing to see and hear the Jesus that is revealed in the Bible. Such a refusal does not carry over as eternal life but eternal damnation or as Jesus revealed “God’s wrath remains on him”.

    Kate, what you see as “slamming” … we are doing everything possible to alert you to the truth of Jesus from the Bible. We do not want you to be like those of Noah’s day, or as the “rich man” as Jesus revealed in “Lazurus and the rich man”.

  65. 65 Kent
    March 11, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Kate, you say you love Jesus but who are we talking about?

    Is he merely our older brother and the brother of Satan whose salvation plan was accepted over his brother Satan’s plan who then became the savior of the world while his brother became the devil who took 1/3 of the spirit children with who became the demons? (Mormon Jesus)

    OR

    Has Jesus always been God, who was God even when He walked this earth to be the perfect blameless sacrifice to take away all of the sins of the world to save us, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, and who will always be God for eternity? (Jesus of the Bible)

    It is important who we are talking about as even though the Bible says whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved, Jesus was a common name in the day He walked this earth and no one who called on their names would be saved, Jesus is a common name in certain countries today and likewise anyone who calls on any of their names would not be saved, and the Mormon Jesus is also a different Jesus.

  66. March 11, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Kent, you know good and well we are speaking of the same Jesus Christ. I find it difficult to communicate with you. I get blasted for using a certain tone, yet you always have a very mocking tone and disrespect for LDS that is contrary to what Echo and Mark say they are promoting on this blog.

  67. March 11, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    JBR — please cite the verses that show we are judge immediately after we die.

    Also, I will try to believe that you really care….and tell you that you can set aside your fear for my condemnation. I am happy that you are exalted right now. Our terminology differs in such that I won’t argue what you are saying. In that regard, I too believe that because of Jesus Christ and His Atonement, I am able to come unto God. Yet, I also know that the word perfect in Greek is “complete, finished”. I believe God wants more for us than to remain damned in our progression. Eternally, that is what Satan wanted for us. He wanted to take away our agency that enables us to choose for ourselves and with those choices, grow in light and knowledge of God. So, if you really think about it, what you are teaching could be considered Satan’s lie. You mock us for our belief that God requires works from us unto salvation. Yet, He requires those works to bring us closer to Him to be joint-heirs with Christ. That is a Biblical teaching that for some reason you mock.

    Please explain to me what Paul was speaking of when he said, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” and “do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God..” Phillipians 2: 12-15

  68. 68 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    The Bible clearly teaches that there is an eternal hell. If we do not understand and believe the right thing, we will suffer in the end. Mormons seem to be unwilling to see that they have placed themselves under the law and as such they are subject to keeping the law 100% and it doesn’t matter that they say they believe in Christ. The question is, do they believe in Christ 100% alone for their salvation. Anyone who says that Christ is their savior in one breath and then says they are required to keep any law, command, requirement, or ordinance for that salvation is deeply confused as to what the Bible has clearly said on this matter. What a person believes about salvation matters and this is serious business and I for one take it seriously. I don’t view revealing truth as “mocking” or “slamming”. I view revealing truth as the potential to save someone’s soul and no one here can or has forced anyone to accept the truth that is being offered. We all have a choice to make. Take it or leave it. The truth is sometimes painful and I’m not going to stop revealing truth just because some people don’t like it.

  69. March 11, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    I can feel the same toward you. Jesus Christ IS my Savior, and because I believe that 100%, I will obey Him and all that He told us to do, which is in the Bible, and which the Spirit testifies to my heart and through the Prophet Joseph Smith, who he prepared and restored His true Gospel through, and through His living prophet today. So I have no idea why all of you think He just told us those things to do so that we would realize we CAN’T do them. I am revealing truth to you as well. The thing of it is, I believe Christ when it says in the Bible that He will that ALL will have Eternal life. I don’t limit Him to what my own little brain can conceive…I actually believe Him. Therefore, I follow Him.

  70. 70 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Kate said, “Yet, I also know that the word perfect in Greek is “complete, finished”.”

    John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

    It is finished, but it is not over.

    Kate said, “I believe God wants more for us than to remain damned in our progression.”

    We are not damned in our progression. If we are saved because of Christ’s atonement, we are in Christ, we are in union with him and it is through Christ that we are then sanctified, it is through Christ that we are able to overcome and “progress”.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

    Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    I have been made holy because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Because I am holy, I am no longer separated from God, I am with God now and will be with God always.

    “To summarize, sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second, a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil.” ~ http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html

    This is different for the mormon. Christ did not make the mormon holy because the mormon believes that they must first belong to the LDS church, be baptized by the LDS, be married in the LDS temple, keep all of the requirements, ordinances, commandments, etc, etc before they can be considered to be holy or “worthy”. If Christ has not made the mormon holy right now, then the mormon is not with God right now, and the mormon may not be with God ever.

  71. March 11, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    So, you believe that if a person comes 100% to Christ and believes Him, that through Him they are made Holy, then they are Holy. Well, then I say, Mormon’s are holy based on that. We just believe that He then requires us to follow him.

    We do not do those ordinances to consider us Holy, we know it is through Christ we are made Holy, but that He does require us to do those things He has commanded us to do.

  72. 72 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Kate said “Jesus Christ IS my Savior, and because I believe that 100%…”

    If Jesus were your savior, you would be able to walk away from the LDS church today and still be saved, but you will not do this because the LDS church teaches that you will be damned to outer darkness if you do. So, let me ask you a question, if you were to walk away from the LDS church today, would you still believe the same things you do and feel the same way you do about Christ and your relationship with God or is your relationship with God and Christ dependant on the LDS church? As for Joseph Smith, he has you believing that your status with God and your relationship with God is dependant on a church! Who are you following Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith? I am saved and following Jesus Christ and that is not dependant on any church.

    Kate said “So I have no idea why all of you think He just told us those things to do so that we would realize we CAN’T do them”.

    Correction, we were given the law so that we would realize that we CAN’T keep the law and that we are dependant on God and that we need Christ!

    Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 3:21-24 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God, which is attested by the law and the prophets, has been disclosed— 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.3:24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:24-26 Thus the law had become our guardian13 until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

    ALL will have eternal life, some will have eternal life in hell, but All who BELIEVE JESUS IS LORD will have eternal life in heaven!

  73. 73 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 10:37 pm

    Kate said “We do not do those ordinances to consider us Holy, we know it is through Christ we are made Holy, but that He does require us to do those things He has commanded us to do.”

    Correction, God is holy and abhors sin. We can not come before God if we are not holy. A mormon has to do certain things to be able to be deemed “worthy” or holy enough to dwell with God in the celestial kingdom. If a mormon believes he has to do things or keep ordinances of a church in order to be with God in the celestial kingdom, then they are not holy right now. If you truly believed that Christ has made you holy right now, then you would understand that you do not need to be LDS, be baptized in the LDS chruch, get married in the temple, keep all of the LDS requirements, etc in order to be with God when you die. As it stands, a mormon has no idea whether they are holy right now or not, a mormon can not know this until death. So, yes mormons do “those ordinaces” in order to be holy or “worthy”.

    Doing the things Christ has commanded us to do does not make us holy, the work that Christ did for us makes us holy!

    Because of the work of Christ, I am holy/worthy and can go before God right now just as I am!

  74. March 11, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    Again, “all will have eternal life in heaven!” so I am just fine!

    Let me explain a bit, since this topic always comes up in just about every thread. All of you would love to make it look like we are going to hell because we believe that following Christ means to obey His Commandments and become like Him.

    It seems those here would rather state the falsehoods they believe about Mormonism, instead of listening to us and learning what it is that we believe. You guys spend a lot of time quoting scriptures and interpreting even our own scriptures to mean what you want them to mean to prove we are wrong. I have never seen so many comments go round and round about this topic, which you all just jump right back to as if it’s your only way to prove we are bad eggs or something.

    Please read: Hopefully, this will help you understand things better before you jump to false conclusions.

    (from en.fairmormon.org)

    The Book of Mormon does not state that “all we can do” is a way of earning the grace of Christ. And there is not one member of the LDS church who believes that our obedience can ever be payment in full for the free gift of the atonement. By the same token, we reject the “cheap grace” ideas suggested by many modern Protestant churches that seem to require no effort on the sinner’s part. The correct meaning of the Book of Mormon phrase “after all we can do” is clear in light of other Book of Mormon passages which define it as repentance and being forgiven of sin and cleansed of guilt (see Alma 24:10-12).
    In fact, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes the same thing about grace that the earliest Christians believed. Modern Protestant ideas are different from earlier teachings. They are entitled to their opinion, but it doesn’t make Mormon ideas “false” if we agree with how the earliest followers of Jesus saw the matter.
    One Evangelical Christian author wrote of his sudden discovery that his previous beliefs about salvation were very different from those held by the early Christians:

    If there’s any single doctrine that we would expect to find the faithful associates of the apostles teaching, it’s the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. After all, that is the cornerstone doctrine of the Reformation. In fact, we frequently say that persons who don’t hold to this doctrine aren’t really Christians…

    Our problem is that Augustine, Luther, and other Western theologians have convinced us that there’s an irreconcilable conflict between salvation based on grace and salvation conditioned on works or obedience. They have used a fallacious form of argumentation known as the “false dilemma,” by asserting that there are only two possibilities regarding salvation: it’s either (1) a gift from God or (2) it’s something we earn by our works.

    The early Christians [and the Latter-day Saints!] would have replied that a gift is no less a gift simply because it’s conditioned on obedience….

    The early Christians believed that salvation is a gift from God but that God gives His gift to whomever He chooses. And He chooses to give it to those who love and obey him.
    —David W. Bercot, Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, 3rd edition, (Tyler, Texas: Scroll Publishing Company, 1999[1989]), 57, 61–62. ISBN 0924722002.

    The Latter-day Saints are pleased to be in the company of the earliest Christians. And it is ridiculous to try to exclude LDS from the community of Christians because they have not embraced the modified doctrines that were clearly adopted later.
    The LDS doctrine of salvation and grace are thoroughly explained in the 1998 conference talk by Elder Dallin H. Oaks, one of the present-day apostles. We advise any who want to find out what Mormons truly believe on this subject, instead of some caricature of our doctrine, to read his talk at:
    Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign (May 1998), 55.

  75. 75 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 10:47 pm

    Kate said “So, you believe that if a person comes 100% to Christ and believes Him, that through Him they are made Holy, then they are Holy. Well, then I say, Mormon’s are holy based on that. We just believe that He then requires us to follow him.”

    Correction, that is what we Christians believe. If you believe this, then why does your church say that you must keep LDS requirements in order to be with God in the celestial kingdom?

    You are not holy right now, I am holy right now. Maybe you will be holy some day if you can be 100% sin free.

    Mormons do not get to be with God unless they fulfill requirements, that means mormons are not holy because of what Christ alone did! Mormons can only be holy if they fulfill all of the “requirements”. This is not being made holy through Christ, this is being made holy through self which can’t be done because no one can be 100% free from sin.

    Hebrews 10:14-17

    14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”

    17 Then he adds:

    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”

  76. March 11, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    Choose: So you are yelling at me, “I am holy! You aren’t!”

    That’s what I am hearing from your post. I believe in being humble…I believe that coming unto Christ and accepting the atonement in my life, purges me of the old me, and that if I remain faithful in Him, letting His light work upon me and through me, following the Spirit as He guides me to do the things He requires of me, that when my life is done, He will embrace me and say, “Well done!”

    Do I believe that I can be unfaithful to Him, lazy, not listen and obey His words, not listen to the spirit guide and direct me to do His will, and still remain Holy? No!

    If you don’t either, then you are “working” to keep yourself “unspotted from the world”, which in short is the same as the “works” we are doing.

    James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

    Yes, we do believe their are ordinances such as baptism that require the proper authority, but that is a Biblical teaching as well. Are you telling me that their were no ordinances required in the New Testament?

  77. 77 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Eternal Life

    Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3). ~http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsplocale=0&sourceId=61810bbce1d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    ******Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence****

    ******However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel”*********

    If you believe this, you are NOT saved by the blood of Christ, you are NOT holy right now!

    I am saved by the blood of Christ, I am saved, I am holy right now, I will live in God’s presence and this has nothing to do with “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel”.

    Obedience and keeping commandments flows out of my inheritance of eternal life with God it is not dependent on my obedience to God or of keeping commandments.

  78. March 11, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Choose –So can you lose that inheritance? If so, how?

  79. 79 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 11:15 pm

    Kate said, “Do I believe that I can be unfaithful to Him, lazy, not listen and obey His words, not listen to the spirit guide and direct me to do His will, and still remain Holy? No! ”

    Yes, because of the shed blood of Christ we still remain holy! God said,“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

    Isaiah 43:25
    “I, even I, am he who blots out
    your transgressions, for my own sake,
    and remembers your sins no more.

    However, people who are in Christ know that they can not “be unfaithful to Him, lazy, not listen and obey His words, not listen to the spirit guide and direct me to do His will”. We do these things, but they are not what “exalts” us, Christ alone gives us “eternal life” or “exaltation”. Keeping ordinances does not give us “eternal life” or “exaltation”.

    Kate said, “If you don’t either, then you are “working” to keep yourself “unspotted from the world”, which in short is the same as the “works” we are doing. ”

    Correction, Christ alone did the “work” for my “exaltation”. The only thing I am working on, is keeping the commandments of God. There is a big difference because the “work” mormons do must be done for their “exaltation”. The “work” Christ did gives me my “exaltation”.

  80. 80 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    Kate said, “Choose –So can you lose that inheritance? If so, how?”

    I can not loose what I have inherited because I am a new creation in Christ Jesus and I will never, ever, turn my back on my God. I will never ever go back to the “old” person I was before I knew my Lord and Savior. I am living my life for him and in him. I have taken up my cross and I am following my Lord and Savior. I have taken off the old and put on the new. I have a spiritual union in Christ Jesus that will not be taken away. I am holy. I am perfect. I am with God. God’s laws are in my heart and written on my mind. I am His and this will never be taken away!

    Hebrews 10:14-17

    14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”

    17 Then he adds:

    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”

  81. 81 choosethechrist
    March 11, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    Philippians 4:7

    7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

    May you find that peace…………………………

  82. March 11, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    Ah, yet you say that “the only thing I am working on, is keeping the commandments of God.” “We do these things, but they are not what “exalts” us.” So, let me get this straight. Christ “exalts” you, but not by changing you/ purifying you through the things He commands you to do?

    You see, I believe that through accepting His Atonement, we allow that purifying power that purges us of our sins and makes us clean, to change us. That brings us to Him, saying, Here am I…I will do thy Will. Then, by His spirit, which testifies to us of truth, we learn what He requires of us. We can do those things, or not do those things. Doing those things brings us in alignment with His will and can exalt us…not doing them means we do not want to be in alignment with His will.

    What does Paul mean when he says to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”?

  83. March 11, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    “Philippians 4:7

    7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

    May you find that peace…………………………”

    Thank you! I HAVE found that peace! My heart swells with true joy in Christ Jesus.

  84. March 11, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Choose: “I am perfect. I am with God.”

    What happens if you sin? You say you will never go back, but all men sin. Do you believe that once you have accepted Christ’s Atonement, that you can keep sinning and all will be well with you?

  85. March 11, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Just for clarification, we believe that because we are still capable of sin, even though we have been cleansed by the Blood of Christ, we need to be repentant. The ordinance of the Sacrament (yes, one of those works) allows us to renew our baptismal covenant with Christ by taking the Sacrament in remembrance of Him and His Atonement for us. By doing this, we can retain the remission of sins received at baptism.

  86. 86 Joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 2:14 am

    Choose, the laws and ordinances are all dependent on following Christ. I prrsonally love how this gets left out.. Yup, you nailed LDS… We thought Jesus was a frauf so we made up our own book… (SARCASM ADDED).. EVERYTHING we do is FIRST dependent on Christ’s blood shed. Do we go to the temple before we accept Christ? Are we baptized before we accept Christ? Do I know that I am holy right now??? YES I DO. Must I do something to REMAIN holy? Yes, I must!!! You act over and over like you understand our lives abd our thoughts. You read our doctrine without wanting to umderstand. We habe also already covered this, I dont care if.you think you are holy now. If you are so sure that you can do whatever you want through your life, why dont you go ahead and commit blaspheme right now? Please enlighten me to how your salvation is so much better than mine and requires absolutely no commitment on your part. That line of thinking is a line of crap and you know it.

  87. 87 JBR
    March 12, 2012 at 3:42 am

    Kate, you said:
    “JBR — please cite the verses that show we are judge immediately after we die.”

    By these series of verses: (NIV then KJV)

    2 Timothy 4:1
    (NIV) … In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

    (KJV)… I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom
    ———————————————————————————

    1 Peter 4:5
    (NIV) But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

    (KJV) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    ———————————————————————————-

    Luke 16:22-23
    (NIV) … “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

    (KJV)… And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Phillipians 2:12-15 “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” ……

    Certianly not what you’re implyingto when he also writes:

    “Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.”
    ____________________________________________________________________

    “Also, I will try to believe that you really care” ……..

    Why is there any other reason would we continually engage you in some sort of conversation if we really do not care?

    Sure, both of us can claim that we lose patience with one another, but ultimatly you will have to realize that being cynical \ skeptical of people intentions doesn’t reflect on us but on you.

  88. 88 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 3:59 am

    JBR:
    “Sure, both of us can claim that we lose patience with one another, but ultimatly you will have to realize that being cynical \ skeptical of people intentions doesn’t reflect on us but on you.”

    Both sides claim to be right, and both are refuting one another, cynical and skeptical comments have been made by both sides (most likely including me).

    I know for certain that i would be comfortable in my knowledge of Christ’s redeeming power today, if i died this very second. I know that both sides of this would probably be willing to die for the entirety of their particular belief on Christianity/LDS…

    The question that then pops up truly is “which is right”?
    Of what particular lineage does a “Christian” church come from? What do they teach that might be incorrect?
    Of what lineage does “LDS” church come from? What do they teach that might be incorrect?

    Kate and I (and I am pretty sure Shem too) have posted several things on the accuracy of both the Bible and “Christianity” as a whole. If you are teaching out of something that MAY have been tampered with, it is very important to go back and validate the accuracy of said article. In LDS view, the Bible has been tampered with. Even Christians have stated that what was put into the Bible had to meet “criteria x”, and if it didnt meet that criteria, it was not added. “What if” is thrown around a lot on here, or peoples understand of any particular scripture, but seriously “WHAT IF” the people canonizing the Bible missed something?

    I know that when “Christianity” first went main stream, there were people trying to take it by the reins, and control what people thought and learned regarding it. Hence: Lutherans… Calvins…. and so on..

    I also know that the way people are looking @ the dead sea scrolls is not to translate what they say all on the scrolls own, it is compared against what is ALREADY written in the Bible to compare for accuracy. If it isn’t accurate, then my understanding is it is disregarded.. Does that sound like someone really searching for the truth? is this an attempt at “ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST”? Honestly, you and i will NEVER in THIS LIFE know if those scrolls are translated correctly. If someone says they are translated correctly, the other side will come out and say that there is a cover up.. It doesnt matter which side is right, the other side WILL think this..

  89. 89 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 4:01 am

    Choose, to this:
    “I’m going to take that to mean that the mormons really do think that Jesus is out there making babies on his own planet, but for some reason none of the LDS people here really want to come out and say that.”

    Honestly, i have no idea what Christ is doing this exact moment. maybe he is up there being a “baby maker”. I really dont know. Do you know that EVERYTHING he has done since the time he ascended to heaven is sitting at the right hand of God? He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE?

  90. 90 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 4:25 am

    David, to this:
    Josh
    We were talking about your revision of Isaiah 45:5. The KJV says:
    “5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:”
    The transliterated word for “LORD” from the original Hebrew is “Y@hovah,” the proper name for the LORD. Jehovah means “the existing ONE.”
    the word “GOD” in this verse is the transliterated word “elohiym”. This word is NOT the proper name of the LORD. Elohiym means : (plural) rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods; (plural intensive – singular meaning) god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God, the (true) God, God.
    Here is the link to an online interlinear bible if you would like to check for yourself.

    So, my putting “I AM” in that spot fits perfectly, from the transliterated word Elohiym. Especially per LDS belief that there are other “Gods”… so, lets look at this AGAIN… (i am again changing a few words, as per their definition to help gain a better understanding of what is written)
    “I am the EXISTING ONE, and there is none else, there is no RULER beside me: I ENDOWED thee WITH A RANK, though thou has not known me.”

    So, as we have said, there is no other “RULER” of earth. Perhaps this is even in Reference to the entirety of our Galaxy, of everything we THINK we know. But just understanding that we dont know squat really comes into play here.
    What was there before there was nothing? (obviously the answer is God.. BUT IF God, WHERE DID HE COME FROM?)
    Everyone claims to not put a limit on God, but by making it so that he could not have been a man before hand, you are limiting God. You dont get to decide what God did before he was God. You cant tell me what happened before he created everything that WE KNOW of. I am not limiting to ONLY this universe, I am expanding beyond what we see as capable. Do you think this universe is the only universe ever to exist anywhere, even in God’s thought? Throughout LIMITLESS time, nothing has come before, and nothing will come after? WE are the only beings that will ever get a chance to walk across the graduation stage in heaven and be welcomed in?
    The beings on THIS EARTH (through creation science puts the total humans ever on earth at what, 50billion?) are the only creations in all of our know existence to have this privilege? There will never be any creations after us, and there were never any before us? Who is really limiting God with these claims?

  91. March 12, 2012 at 4:37 am

    First, none of those scriptures claim what you are saying about being judged immediately upon death. The story of the rich man is a tool to teach a concept, just as all the parables did. It also does not teach that judgement happened immediately upon death.

    “Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.”

    Let’s review this one since you must have missed it months ago (perhaps you weren’t here then)

    When Paul spent time writing about “the law,” he was talking about the dead works of the law of Moses, which the Jews simply called “the law.”

    See John 1:17: “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

    Romans chapter 3 makes it clear that he was referring to the unique law of the Jews at that time.

    “The Jewish leaders had added many unauthorized provisions, ceremonies, and prohibitions to the original law, until it became extremely burdensome. These innovations were known as the “traditions of the elders.” By N.T. times among the Jews the law had become so altered it had lost much of its spiritual meaning almost to the point that the law was worshipped more than the Lord. It is this form of the law that is so harshly spoken against by Jesus and by Paul. “(lds.org)

    This old law, the law of Moses, which included circumcision and sacrifices, had been fulfilled by the Atonement of Christ and was no longer needed (Galatians 3:24-27).

    Because many new converts still clung to the old traditions, Paul and others worked hard to show the new converts (including the converted Jews in Rome, to whom Paul wrote the book of Romans) that their old tradition, the law, was dead.

    The most important thing is faith in Jesus Christ, accepting His grace and His infinite Atonement. But it is wrong to say that no works are needed to accept that grace. Christ invites us into a covenant relationship in which He pays our debts, forgives our sins, makes us new creatures and gives us eternal life – but we are required to do our part.

    In Hebrews 6:1-2, Paul taught that we must have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the Holy Ghost. Also, Jesus, Himself, taught that we have to be baptized to enter into Heaven (John 3:3-5; Mark 16:16), as taught Paul (Titus 3:5; Romans 6:3-8; cf. Gal. 3:27), Peter (1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:37-41), and others.

    Paul warned many times that sin could lead believers to fall from grace.

    1 Cor. 10:12 “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

    Heb. 2:1-2 “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if by the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;”

    Heb. 4:11…”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall…”

    And then the verse I asked you to explain, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12) , which is not what you would like to think it meant.

    He also urged us to seek eternal life “by patient continuance in well doing” (Rom. 2:7).

    God “will render to every man according to his deeds” (Rom. 2:6).

    In 2 Cor. 5:9,10, he said that Christians labor to be accepted of God since we will all be judged for the deeds we do in the flesh.

    So, hopefully, I have cleared up any misunderstanding of that verse for you.

    Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, yet, we must accept His free gift by following and obeying Him, doing those things which He requires of us. Jesus Christ is “the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

  92. March 12, 2012 at 4:43 am

    I should have stated with my last post that I was replying to JBR.

  93. 93 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 4:56 am

    JBR, To this:
    (KJV) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    To me, this says TWO things:
    1. There are those that will be judged in this life. (probably those committing blaspheme.. i really dont know)
    2. There are those that will be judged AFTER this life. (time is RELATIVE, 1000 years is as a day to God, right?) Who’s is to say exactly when any of this stuff happened? If God’s days are the same length as ours, that means there are 1440 minutes per day. 144 minutes of Gods day would equal 100 years of our lifetime, 864 seconds to God = 10 years to our lives, 86 seconds would = 1 year for us. 1 second to God = 4.2 days to us….
    SO: even if God DID judge us instantly, the VERY SECOND we died, assuming Hell is near earth (since Satan was cast from heaven, and he is here trying to pull souls from God), and Heaven is near God (as would seam LOGICAL) It would take us 4 days to enter Hell…
    people are currently dying at a rate of 146,000 per day (per Google). God would need to Judge 613,200 people every 1 second of his time… If people were only judged when they died.. How many of those 613,000 were judge prior, i know not, and dont claim to. While I understand God has know us our entire lives, and knows our hearts, as i believe Kate said earlier, I think Christ would be standing there saying “Are you sure you wont accept me?”, which to me greatly limits the amount of judging that can actually be done per second.

    So, purely speaking Mathematically, it is highly unlikely that we will be judged instantly (per God’s time)

  94. 94 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 5:20 am

    I want to stress that the above #’s game does not make God’s Job impossible, but UNLIKELY. I want to impress upon those reading the sheer magnitude of the entirety of the universe that WE know of.. out of ALL of that, you think that WE are the ONLY things worthy of God’s time?
    Next, i want each that reads this just to try and think of as many people as they know in the space of a second… you can categorize them all into “humanity” and get them all… try doing 10 people in a second… it is not easy, compounded to 613,000 makes it that much more UNLIKELY, especially COUPLED with His workings in the rest of our universe alone. THEN, take each one personally, and judge based on TRUE acceptance of Christ for each and every individual.
    Again, this is not IMPOSSIBLE, just highly UNLIKELY to happen so very quickly.

  95. 95 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 5:21 am

    (unlikely per my understanding of time)

  96. 96 Kent
    March 12, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Kate said, “Kent, you know good and well we are speaking of the same Jesus Christ. I find it difficult to communicate with you. I get blasted for using a certain tone, yet you always have a very mocking tone and disrespect for LDS that is contrary to what Echo and Mark say they are promoting on this blog.”

    No I don’t believe we are speaking about the same Jesus as the Jesus of the Bible is not Satan’s brother whose salvation plan was accepted over his brother Satan’s plan. Satan has never had a salvation plan as his intentions have never ever been good instead his intentions have always been evil as he is father of all lies starting with the lie to Eve and then by extention to Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden.

    The only salvation plan there has ever been has been for the one and only Son of God Jesus Christ who has always been God and always will be God who lived as the only perfect sinless man there has ever been who died in our place, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, and who rose again on the third day to give, those who believe in who He really is and what He alone did and only He could do.

    No, the Bible does not teach that all of humanity are children of God only those who believe in the name of the true Jesus of the Bible and, as I said, it it very important who it is we are talking about as there are others who go by the name of Jesus.

    So no, Satan is not and was never a child of God, so he couldn’t be Jesus’ brother as he never received Him just as unbelievers don’t have the right to be children of God as they haven’t received Jesus either so they haven’t become children of God.

    John 1:10-13

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

    How can anybody know who Jesus is unless we tell them exactly who Jesus is?

    No, I am not mocking anyone but I am simply trying to tell people the truth.

  97. March 12, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Josh

    “So, my putting “I AM” in that spot fits perfectly, from the transliterated word Elohiym.”

    How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? IN two words the answer is – Absolutely Not! It means I AM is God and there are NO other gods, or god like things. Let’s try it yet another way.

    ex 1: “I am Josh there are no other men besides me.”

    ex. 2; I am Josh, there is no other Josh besides me.”

    Example 2 is what you say example 1 is saying . That is NOT what it is saying. Furthermore, the only time you would even apply that kind of logic is when you interpret the Bible. And the only reason you do that is because you can’t bring yourself to believe that it means what it says. Whne you don’t BELIEVE what the BIble says that is UNBELIEF! I hope you see why it is imperative that you question Joseph’s testimony at least as much you consistently question what God says in the Bible. You ARE trusting in one man OVER what God says. Now lets move on to another of your points.

    “So, as we have said, there is no other “RULER” of earth.”

    you added “of earth” above. Then you say this:

    “I am not limiting to ONLY this universe, I am expanding beyond what we see as capable.”

    Your logic contradicts itself. You are doing exactly what you say you are not doing.

    “Everyone claims to not put a limit on God, but by making it so that he could not have been a man before hand, you are limiting God.”

    God says he is spirit and He knows what he is. “24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

    “You dont get to decide what God did before he was God.”

    Wrong – You don’t get to decide that God was ever anything but God. He was always God “from everlasting to everlasting.” He never had a begining – that’s why He is eternal. It is beyond our puney human minds to understand.

    Psalm 41:13
    “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.”

    2.Psalm 90:2

    “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.”

    Besides – you believe the Heavenly Father is a man right now and the Bible say He is spirit. YOU don’t get to what God is. And neither does Joseph Smith.

    Josh – This is one reason why Mormonism is so dangerous. It has made you distrust the Bible. And without trust In His Word you will be lost. Every discussion I have with you seems to involve you saying things like “what if this or that happened,” “what about if it really said this or that”, or something like (paraphrasing) just because it says “y” that doesn’t mean it can’t really mean something else “X”, because it doesn’t say “y” doesn’t really mean “x.”

    You keep trying to defeat the Bible. You have been lied to. When the Bible says “y” it means “y” and should not be assumed to mean things it doesn’t say.

  98. March 12, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Both David and Kent– Your responses are “you guys are wrong because you think the Bible says this “…”. we, however, are right because we think the Bible says this “…”. because of that, you Mormons are dangerous people for using the scriptures the same way we are using them, but because we are who we are and you are Mormons, you are evil and following Satan.”

    Ok, that sounds logical…..

    I keep forgetting that you guys have a direct line to God and that helps you to know truth from error….oh wait…that would be us Mormons ;o)

  99. 99 shematwater
    March 12, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Just a few comments. It has been a while since I was here, and I don’t have time to make direct replies.

    1. Judgment after death.
    Everyone here is right on this point. There is a judgment that immediately follows death. This is when the spirits are judged and sent to either the Paradise (Abraham’s bosom) or Prison (also called Hell). This happens immediately after death, with the faithful entering paradise and the wicked entering prison.
    However, this is not the only judgment that the Bible speaks of. We read in Revelation 20: 12-15 “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and DEATH AND HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and THEY WERE JUDGED every man according to their works.”
    So, while all people are judged at the moment of death, and sent to either paradise or prison, there will be a second judgment, or a final judgment, in which all those who had been condemned to hell at death will be brought forth and judged. This first judgment, a consignment to paradise or prison, is based in the person’s acceptance of Christ. The second judgment is based on their works performed in this life.

    This brings me to my second comment.

    2. 1 Peter 3: 17-20, 4: 4-6
    “For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

    It has been said that these verses are in the context of Christian suffering. I think that we should elaborate. It is not only their suffering, but the good that can come of it that is being addressed. The comparison is that Christ suffered greatly so that he could accomplished His great work, which included the preaching to the dead who were in prison (which I addressed previously). We also know from these verses that many of the people in prison where those who lived at the time of Noah.

    “Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
    Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    In this passage we read the purpose of Christ preaching to the dead. It was that they may know the gospel, and thus have their works in the flesh judged according to their acceptance of the gospel. So, there is no need to fill things in. It is stated very clearly here. We know that Christ preached the gospel to those who were wicked in the days of Noah for the purpose that they may live according to God in the Spirit. They had rejected the gospel in life, and yet we are told they have received another chance to hear and live.

    3. Who is Christ?
    A quick summary of the LDS doctrine: Jesus Christ is the eldest son of God the Father, and is thus our elder brother. Before this world was ever created he progressed in perfection and became God with His Father. He was the God of the Old Testament, the Great Jehovah. He came in the meridian of time to do all that was necessary for our salvation. He made both immortality and eternal life possible, and it is through Him, and Him alone that we are saved. Once He had finished his work in the atonement he was raised from the dead and was exalted at the right hand of God, and thus became complete (Hebrews 10: 12). He is the ruler of this Earth and will be our God for all eternity.
    No, this is not the same thing that other Christians believe, but it is more glorious than they could ever conceive.

  100. March 12, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Shem, this is the comment that was being discussed about what type of judgement happens after death.

    “The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27). There is no salvation after death. The spiritual condition in which a person dies is that which he will possess at the time of the general resurrection (cf. Matthew 25:1-12). There is no second chance for redemption following death.”

    While you are correct with what you said, this finality of judgement is what I was contending.

  101. 101 Kent
    March 12, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Kate, the Bible does not say Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and it doesn’t say Satan had a salvation plan at all so he couldn’t have had one rejected in the first place.

    Again, the Bible also says that only those who receive Jesus have the right to become children of God not that they are children of God before they receive Him. So Christians were not chldren of God before they received Him because they didn’t have the right to be His children yet, Satan has never been a child of God as he has never received Him and he never had the right to be God’s child, so Jesus and Satan could not have ever been or ever will be brothers. I know Mormons view one brother, Jesus, as choosing good while the other brother, Satan, chose evil, that is how someone at Mormon.org explained it to me, but the bottom line is they aren’t brothers at all. Also, Chirstians were not brothers of Jesus before they believed but in a sense, they became adopted brothers. So no, Jesus is not the older brother of all humanity He is the creator of all humanity and He is and never has been a created being.

    John 1:10-13

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

  102. March 12, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Kent, do you believe that we existed in the Spirit world before we came to earth…in other words, do you believe in the Pre-existence?

  103. March 12, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Kent–regarding your comments about satan.

    Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.
    As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.

    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “Answering Media Questions About Jesus and Satan,” Press release (12 December 2007)

    LDS doctrine does not subscribe to traditional creedal trinitarianism. That is, the LDS do not believe the extra-biblical doctrines which surround many Christians’ ideas about God, such as expressed by the Nicene Creed. Specifically, the LDS do not accept the proposition that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are “of one substance (homoousios) with the Father,” as the Nicene Creed declares.

    Rather, LDS doctrine teaches that God the Father is physically and personally distinct from Jesus Christ, His Only Begotten Son. The Father is understood to be the literal father of His spirit children.

    LDS believe that Jesus Christ’s role is central to our Heavenly Father’s plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other spirit children of God:
    • Jesus was and is perfect
    • Jesus is God (See John 1:1-2, Hebrews 1:6, 1 Nephi 11:16–26, D&C 76:13).
    • Jesus is the Creator (See John 1:3, Hebrews 1:1–6, Mosiah 3:3, Helaman 14:12, Moses 2:1).
    • Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See 3 Nephi 11:11).
    • Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See Isaiah 43:11, Mosiah 13:28–34, 3 Nephi 9:15, Moses 4:2).
    • Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 8:5, 2 Nephi 2:28, D&C 76:69).
    • Jesus was “the Only Begotten”—only He, of all God’s children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. All other mortals have two mortal parents, and Satan and his followers never receive physical bodies at all. (See John 1:14, John 3:16, John 14:3, Jacob 4:11, Alma 12:33–34).

    God the Father also had many other spirit children, created in His image and that of His Only Begotten. These children include all humans born on the earth. Some of God’s children rebelled against Him, and contested the choice of Jesus as Savior. (See D&C 76:25–27). The leader of these children was Lucifer, or Satan. Those spirit children of God who followed Satan in his rebellion against Christ are sometimes referred to as “demons,” or “devils.” (See Moses 4:1–4, Abraham 3:24–28).

    Thus, it is technically true to say that Jesus and Satan are “brothers,” in the sense that both have the same spiritual parent, God the Father.

    However, critics do not provide the context for the idea that Christ and Lucifer were brothers. Cain and Abel were also brothers, and yet no Bible reader believes that they are spiritual equals or equally admirable. In a similar way, Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus and Satan are equals. Nothing is as equally evil as Jesus is good nor is Jesus power the opposite of Satan’s (See Moses 4:3). The Book of Mormon also states that the opposite of Christ and God is nothingness (See 2 Nephi 2 10-15), not Satan.
    The scriptures clearly teach the superiority of Jesus over the devil and that Michael (or Adam) and Lucifer (Satan) and their followers fought against each other (See Revelation 12:7-8) to uphold the plan of the Father and the Son. Critics also ignore the Biblical references that imply that Satan is one of the “sons of God.” (See Job:16, Job 2:1)

    Finally, while it is true that all mortals share a spiritual parent with Jesus (and Satan, and every other spiritual child of God), we now have a different, more important relationship with Jesus. All of God’s children, save Jesus, have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). In sinning, they abandon and betray their divine heritage and inheritance. Only through Jesus can any mortal return home to God the Father. This return becomes possible when a sinner is born again, and adopted by Christ, who becomes the spiritual father to those whom He redeems. (See Romans 8:14–39.)

    The early Ante-Nicene Church father Lactantius wrote:

    Since God was possessed of the greatest foresight for planning, and of the greatest skill for carrying out in action, before He commenced this business of the world,–inasmuch as there was in Him, and always is, the fountain of full and most complete goodness,–in order that goodness might spring as a stream from Him, and might flow forth afar, He produced a Spirit like to Himself, who might be endowed with the perfections of God the Father… Then He made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore he was infected with his own envy as with poison, and passed from good to evil; and at his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From which it appears that the source of all evils is envy. For he envied his predecessor, who through his steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This being, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolus: we call him accuser, because he reports to God the faults to which he himself entices us. God, therefore, when He began the fabric of the world, set over the whole work that first and greatest Son, and used Him at the same time as a counselor and artificer, in planning, arranging, and accomplishing, since He is complete both in knowledge, and judgment, and power… Lactantius, Divine Institutes 2.9. in Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (1885; reprint, Peabody: Hendrickson, 2004), 7:52–53.

    Many things he here taught are not considered “orthodox” by today’s standards. However, Lactantius was definitely orthodox during his lifetime. Amazingly, many things here correspond to LDS doctrine precisely in those areas that are “unorthodox.”

    For example,

    1. “He produced a Spirit like to Himself,” namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the “co-equal,” “eternally begotten,” “same substance” “persona” of the later creeds.
    2. “Then he made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain.” God made another spirit who rebelled and who fell from his exalted status. He is the diabolus.
    3. Christ is the “first and greatest Son.” Not the “only” son.
    4. Lastly, since the diabolus and Christ are both spirit sons of God, they are spirit brothers.

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan#endnote_lds1

  104. 104 joshtried
    March 12, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Kent:
    Why did Satan fall from heaven?

  105. 105 Kent
    March 12, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Kate, no I do not believe in pre exisiting spriits at all so I do not believe that there was a spritiual creation before the physical creation, that is something that was added on in the Mormon Book of Moses and the Mormon Book of Abraham. I believe the genesis account in the Bible is complete by itself.

    Yes, I do believe God knew He would create us as He transcends all time and space but He had not created any people, even spirutually, before the beginning in Genesis.

    I also believe that through Jesus all of creation was made not just this earth, everything that was made that was made including all other worlds and, if there is such a thing, all other universes. So Jesus is not and was never a created being and only God, one God but three persons, the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit existed before the beginning in Genesis. I do not believe there are people on other worlds though and that there ever has been any

    So since He is not and was never a created being, Jesus couldn’t be the brother of Satan a created being. Now in a sense I supposed someone could say that Michael the archangel and Satan are brothers, as both are created beings, and one chose to do good, Michael, while the other chose to do evil, Satan, but not that Jesus is his brother.

    John 1:1-4

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

  106. March 12, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Kent, the interesting thing about your arguments is that you can never prove scripturally that you are correct. Also, you can never prove anything that we claim as unbiblical. Your stating that it is, does not hold any value.

    How do you explain this?

    Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer. 1:5.)

    In Ephesians 1:4-5, Paul said that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ himself, according to the good pleasure of his will” The word “predestinated” comes from the Greek word proorizo which also translates as “foreordained.”

    In Job 38:4, God spoke of laying the “foundations of the earth” whereupon “all the sons of God shouted for joy.” “Sons of God” would have had a hard time shouting for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid unless they had been living spirits.

  107. 107 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 2:30 am

    Kate and Josh…..
    I do not want to seem not interested in replying, but I’ve been getting busier and just don’t have the time to respond soon enough.

    Josh…
    I wouldn’t (if I were you) to attempt to say that God isn’t capable doing something for “With God all things are possible”.

    And again, don’t forget that the judgement sentence is already in effect prior to death occuring.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    Kate,
    No offense, but I just can’t follow your logic enough without responding like a encyclopedia.

    So I’m going to focus on just the end gasme of eternity.

    Show me from Mormonism offical scriptures where those who are sent to “outer darkness” get to leave.

  108. 108 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 2:44 am

    How do you explain this?

    Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer. 1:5.)

    ______________ here’s how I do ______________________

    I (as a contractor) can intimatly know how a house is going to be using my cad program on my computer before one inch of anything is put together. Yet just because it exists on my computer doesn’t mean that the house actually existed prior to construction.

    This is what God is saying here… he knew us so intimatley that before we were “constructed” in the womb, he “knew” how we would be. That however doesn’t mean we existed prior to our “construction”.

  109. 109 Joshtried
    March 13, 2012 at 2:54 am

    JBR, I completely understand problems with response time, as I, and it seems like all of us, have previous engagements that take a majority of our time. I dknow that all things are possible.
    Judgement is not in effect prior to death with everyone, some are before, some are moment of, and as shem? stated some are judged well after. My point was to make known the sheer amount of judging taking place. That would be 613,000 people per second of God’s time. While I understand this is not impossible, I wanted to convey that there are other things going on in the universe, and to say that we take precedence over every other possible thing in the universe would be rather conceeded of us, as humans. I have no idea the things God can do in an instant, somethings are nice to TRY to understand the.magnitude of to understand how.far beyond us God currently is.

  110. March 13, 2012 at 3:24 am

    JBR,
    My logic is not hard to follow, but I do understand if you aren’t able to defend your position. As far as not being judged immediately and having a chance to know the truth, when it comes to outer darkness, you are jumping to the final judgement, which is when there are those who will be cast out into outer darkness, no, as far as we know, they will not have another chance. (though I do have some thoughts that go way beyond doctrine taught, so I will keep those to myself.) I also believe that there will not be many of those who get cast out.

    And for your explanation of Jeremiah…ok…I understand what you are thinking, though I don’t agree with it. Especially with the other verses I gave you…

  111. 111 Kent
    March 13, 2012 at 10:27 am

    “In Job 38:4, God spoke of laying the “foundations of the earth” whereupon “all the sons of God shouted for joy.” “Sons of God” would have had a hard time shouting for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid unless they had been living spirits.”

    I believe, that although the Bible doesn’t say exactly when the angels, also called the host of heaven, including Satan were created, that it was from between the time in the beginning of Genesis and when God laid the foundations of the earth as the heavens were not created before the beginning so there was no place yet for them to reside. Only God existed before He created everything, heaven included. So, also, there was no place created yet for God to have been a man on first on some other planet as everything that was made that was made was through God the Son which includes all of the worlds. Where was God at before He created heaven? Well, for that I don’t know but maybe it isn’t important for us to know other than He can transcend tme and space and only He is infinite and we and the entire creation are finite that have a beginning.

    Notice also that it shows in Genesis 2 that God rested after He created everything within the first six day period, including the host of heaven (the angels).

    As I stated, there was no spiritual creation before the physical creation of Genesis as that is something that was added on to the creation story as the account in the Bible by itself is complete.

    Genesis 1:1-2

    1 IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

    John 1:1-4

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

    Genesis 2:1-3

    1 Thus the heavens and the earth, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM, WERE FINISHED. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

  112. 112 shematwater
    March 13, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    KENT

    1. Concerning the Spirit creation and pre-existence.
    Genesis 2: 5 “And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew…”

    Since we read in Genesis that God created all plant life before it ever existed on the earth, where and how was it created?

    Ecclesiastes 12: 7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

    If the spirit is going to return to God that it had to have been in His presence some time in the past (and not just as an idea, but as an existing entity).

    John 9: 1-3 “And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
    And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
    Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.”

    This is my personal favorite. As the man was born blind the very idea that he could have sinned shows that the apostles knew of and believed in a pre-existent state in which sin could be committed. The fact that Jesus does not correct this doctrine, but simply states that this particular man, nor his parents, had sinned, shows that he also knew this doctrine, and did not think it needed to be corrected.

    Do not say this doctrine is not found in the Bible, and the Bible is full of it, of which I have given only a sample. Whether you believe in it or not doesn’t matter.

    2. Speaking of the Sons of God
    Acts 17: 26-29 “And hath made of bone blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    For in him we alive, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
    Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.”

    All nations are the offspring of God, meaning that all men born on this earth are His literal children. What does this mean?

    Hebrews 12: 9 “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?”

    These two verses prove that God is the literal father of our spirits, for we are His offspring, and thus should be subject to him, more so than we are subject to our fathers in the flesh.

    The Faithful do become the Sons of God by adoption, but this applies to their relationship with Christ, not the Father.

    JBR

    “Show me from Mormonism official scriptures where those who are sent to “outer darkness” get to leave.”

    First of all one must have a correct understanding of what Outer Darkness is.
    Outer Darkness in the modern day has become associated solely with the final judgment and the punishment of the Sons of Perdition with Satan for all eternity. It is not used, almost exclusively, for this purpose. However, this is not the original use of it, as can be seen by a careful reading to the scriptures.

    In the Bible this phrase is used only three times: Matthew 8:12, when Christ healed the servant of the centurion, Matthew 22:13, in the parable of the wedding supper, and in Matthew 25:30, in the parable of the talents. The thing about all these references is that they are talking about the second coming when the wicked will be destroyed from off the face of the earth and cast into Outer Darkness.

    This understanding is shown in a clearer way in the Book of Mormon, Alma chapter 40. In verse 11 Alma begins to address “the state of the soul between death and the resurrection” which is the spirit world. He states that all men “whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” He continues in verse 12 with a description of the state of the righteous. IN verse 13 he tells us of the wicked. He says that “these shall be cast out into outer darkness,” and thus applies this term to the Spirit Prison, or the state of the wicked between death and resurrection.

    In all truth I can find no place in the standard works that uses the term Outer Darkness to refer to any place other than the spirit prison in which the wicked spirits dwell before the resurrection. Why it has taken on its current usage I am unsure. As such the scriptures prove that men will eventually come out of Outer Darkness to be judged at the time they are resurrected.
    In Alma 40: 21 we read “there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.”
    In Revelation 20: 12-13 we read that the “dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
    In 2 Nephi 9: 12 “And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.”

    These three clear references prove that there is a temporary consignment of the spirits of people to a hell, or spirit prison that the ancients called Outer Darkness; and that at the final judgment the spirits in this Outer Darkness will be brought out again to be judged.

    We also read in the scriptures that the final fate of the truly wicked is permanent. In 2 Nephi 9: 16 we read that “they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.” And in Revelation 20: 14-15 we read that “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

    So, in the scriptures the term Outer Darkness has reference to the Spirit Prison, while the final state of the wicked is described as a lake of fire. In the modern day we have rearranged the terms so that Outer Darkness no longer applies to the Spirit Prison, but to that lake of fire.

  113. 113 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Kate,
    It’s not a matter of not defending, it’s a matter of feeling one needs when it’s not mine to do. I’m told to sow the seed, not present the seed in such a way that the soil has no option to reject it.

    And as far as Jeremiah reference as to the other verses, there never was suppose to be a connection between the two. You presented two diffeent contexts, I addressed them separately.

  114. 114 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Josh,
    Are you sure about that position of judgement not being already in place prior to… because Jesus revealed the contrary:

    “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    “condemned already” …… only two scenerios Josh while alive:

    1) believe is not condemned
    2) believes not is condemned already

  115. 115 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    oh, btw Josh…..

    In Jesus’ revelation, do you notice that nothing else is included in being condemned or not other than belief.

  116. March 13, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    I don’t have time to respond to all that I want to respond to and hopefully I can get to them today without getting too far behind, but JBR, no where does that scripture say that is a final judgement. That can very well mean the situation we find ourselves in when we are not believing on Him. So was Paul condemned prior to his ministry, I mean really, he was obviously unbelieving? Or…did he come out of condemnation?

  117. 117 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Shem said: “This is my personal favorite. As the man was born blind the very idea that he could have sinned shows that the apostles knew of and believed in a pre-existent state in which sin could be committed. The fact that Jesus does not correct this doctrine, but simply states that this particular man, nor his parents, had sinned, shows that he also knew this doctrine, and did not think it needed to be corrected.”

    This is an “argument from silence.” You have come to a conclusion which is based upon that fact that something was not said.

    The fact that I have not addressed any other points you made in your post above does not imply that I agree with them. Concluding such would be . . . what?

    An Argument from Silence.

  118. March 13, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    RLO, Shem is correct. Jesus taught truths…are you saying that Jesus would not correct His Apostles of doctrine they had wrong? The fact that they were asking if he was being punished for committing sin before he was born shows very clearly and not silently that the belief in a pre-existence was held by them, including Jesus. He did not correct the very men He chose to help him teach others. This is not a silent statement.

  119. 119 Joshtried
    March 13, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    JBR, what about those would did not have.a.chance.to.accept OR reject Christ?

  120. 120 shematwater
    March 13, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    RLO

    If I asked you “was your first car was red or blue” and you said “neither,” would it be an argument of silence to say that you actually had a first car?
    Of course not. It would be a logical inference based on the fact that you didn’t say “I never owned a car.” If you, in fact, never had, than such a response on your part would be purposely deceptive, leaving out crucial information to prevent a true understanding of the answer of the question.

    In the same way when the apostles asked “who sinned” and Christ says “Neither” it is not an argument of silence to say that the potential was there, and thus they did exist previous to his birth. It is a logical inference based on the fact that Christ did not say “He didn’t exist before he was born so couldn’t have sinned.” For Christ to give the answer he did, and yet know that no such pre-existence was real, is to be deceptive by leaving out this crucial information and thus prevent his apostles from reaching a true understanding.

  121. 121 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Shem;

    Is there really no other possible explanation than your belief in a “pre-existence” for the question the disciples asked, and the answer Jesus gave? Consider that life itself begins, not at birth, but rather at conception.

  122. March 13, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    RLO – So are you supposing one can sin while in the womb?

  123. 123 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Kate;

    Thank-you for commenting.

    You said, “The fact that they were asking if he was being punished for committing sin before he was born shows very clearly and not silently that the belief in a pre-existence was held by them, including Jesus.”

    Not “…shows very clearly…” but rather a conclusion you have read into the text, based, I might venture to say, on a belief you previously held and brought to the reading of it.

    As I mentioned above to Shem, consider the man’s existence between conception and birth, rather than a pre-existence before his conception. You may see this passage in another light.

    Shem is suggesting that because Christ did not explicitly refute a pre-existence, then pre-existence must be true.

    This is an argument from silence. And if you accept Shem’s argument from silence, then you would have to accept someone else’s argument from silence were they to say, “Because Christ did not explicitly affirm a pre-existence, then the pre-existence must be false.”

    You said, “Shem is correct.”

    But I am not speaking to whether Shem is correct or incorrect. I have my beliefs on that, and so do you. Rather, I am speaking to the basis for his conclusion. Either pre-existence is true or it is not true. I am only pointing out that arguments from silence to support either view are equally fallacious.

  124. 124 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Kate asked, “RLO – So are you supposing one can sin while in the womb?”

    I am supposing one can be sinful while in the womb.

    Psalm 51:5

  125. March 13, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    RLO- “I am supposing one can be sinful while in the womb. Psalm 51:5”

    “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

    So, are you saying that you believe that while in the womb, the babe takes on the sin of the mother? Because clearly, he is speaking of the sinful nature of his conception.

    As for the arguments from silence supporting your view, I again, refer to Shem’s comment since there is no point in repeating something that has already been stated so well:

    “In the same way when the apostles asked “who sinned” and Christ says “Neither” it is not an argument of silence to say that the potential was there, and thus they did exist previous to his birth. It is a logical inference based on the fact that Christ did not say “He didn’t exist before he was born so couldn’t have sinned.” For Christ to give the answer he did, and yet know that no such pre-existence was real, is to be deceptive by leaving out this crucial information and thus prevent his apostles from reaching a true understanding.”

  126. 126 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    “So, are you saying that you believe that while in the womb, the babe takes on the sin of the mother? Because clearly, he is speaking of the sinful nature of his conception.”

    Perhaps we share differing views on what this passage says, as well as “original sin,” and its consequences.

    Nice talking with you.

  127. 127 Joshtried
    March 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    While I am sure it would be nice to stop there, RLO, IF you believe in original sin, why not present supporting scripture, as this whole blogs purpose is the change mormons to Christianity (i mean bring to light the truth).

  128. 128 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Josh,
    You know what is revealed in the Bible… then any such scenerios that are given from any other source is not from God, but at best speculation to the worse Satan’s lie.

    “what about those who did not have.a.chance.to.accept OR reject Christ?”
    The law declares:

    1) Romans 1:20.. “they are without excuse”
    ……….. call it whatever ( purgatory \ spirit prison \ reincarnation ect.) all are basicly logical excuses.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________

    2)Romans 3:12…..All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

    ….. “All” means “all”, there is no one who does good.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    \\\\\\\\\ I know where this always lead… the baby \ youngster issue /////////////

    A: God doesn’t reveal anything more than (Bible only)

    1) Psalm 51:5 — everybody is conceived a sinner
    2) Psalm 58:3 — the wicked are such from the womb onward
    3) Psalm 22:10 — God can work faith on the believer as early as the womb
    ———- (notice the action (“I was cast”… not “I decided to cast myself”)
    ———- nobody “can make a decision for Christ” since humans are spiritually D.O.A

    4) therefore we are not to invent scenerios to fit happy feelings or ones that produce a “then God isn’t fair… I won’t believe in him”. Most time people who are troubled by not knowing will find some religious body that can provide an answer that gives them warm fuzzy feelings. Mormonism is not the exception. Just ask Kate.

  129. March 13, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    Ask Kate what exactly? I’m not sure what you tried to imply.

  130. 130 RLO
    March 13, 2012 at 9:12 pm

    Josh suggested: “While I am sure it would be nice to stop there, RLO, IF you believe in original sin, why not present supporting scripture, as this whole blogs purpose is . . . ”

    . . . and so I might one of these days, if the topic of original sin should come up in one of Mark’s blog posts. For now, I think you would agree, we’ve already strayed far enough from the topic at hand.

  131. 131 JBR
    March 13, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    ” Ask Kate what exactly? I’m not sure what you tried to imply.”
    He should ask you questions to hopefully get answers that appeals to warm fuzzy feelings.

    But as RLO stated… this OP isn’t about original sin.

  132. 132 shematwater
    March 14, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    JBR

    “1) Psalm 51:5 — everybody is conceived a sinner
    2) Psalm 58:3 — the wicked are such from the womb onward
    3) Psalm 22:10 — God can work faith on the believer as early as the womb”

    Actually, I don’t think any of these mean what you claim, and so we are back to interpretations. As we are not commenting on original sin I will leave it at this.

    RLO

    The problem with your reasoning is that he is not silent. His answer is dependent on the fact that there was a time in which the man could have sinned before he was born. The real question is what is the most reasonable understanding of this time. Is it more reasonable to say it refers to the womb, during which time the child has no real power to act, and thus can commit no sin (regardless of what you believe of original sin); or is it more reasonable to say that there was a time before his birth when he was in complete control of his faculties and was able to make a conscious choice to rebel against God, and thus sin, which resulted in him being born blind.

    “Shem is suggesting that because Christ did not explicitly refute a pre-existence, then pre-existence must be true.”
    Actually, I am suggesting that since he does not deny the pre-existence, but instead implies that it is real, it is more logical to say that it is.

    “Not “…shows very clearly…” but rather a conclusion you have read into the text, based, I might venture to say, on a belief you previously held and brought to the reading of it.”

    I would say your reasoning of it speaking of the womb is just as much based on previously held beliefs that you are bringing to the reading, and that this understanding is much less likely than the ones we have given.

  133. 133 Joshtried
    March 14, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Honestly, no time to reply to the JST additions, but I did want to say thank you for posting them. Hopefully I can look through them more in depth sometime this week

  134. March 14, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    JBR– I am still waiting for a response to my question….regarding this, where you said, ““He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    “condemned already” …… only two scenerios Josh while alive:

    1) believe is not condemned
    2) believes not is condemned already ”

    and I said:

    “JBR, no where does that scripture say that is a final judgement. That can very well mean the situation we find ourselves in when we are not believing on Him. So was Paul condemned prior to his ministry, I mean really, he was obviously unbelieving? Or…did he come out of condemnation?”

  135. 135 JBR
    March 15, 2012 at 4:51 am

    Kate,
    I’m just not going to any farther attempt to chase this rabbit game of “just try to prove me wrong about Mormonism”.
    Jesus presented this in very simple terms… either one is or one isn’t.

    If you can’t read from Paul’s revelations that he admitted that in fact he thought he was doing the truth when in fact he really was an unbeliever who deserved condemnation… then I can’t help your wanton blindness.

    Sorry, but I’m done.

  136. 136 shematwater
    March 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    JBR

    “If you can’t read from Paul’s revelations that he admitted that in fact he thought he was doing the truth when in fact he really was an unbeliever who deserved condemnation”

    It is interesting that you say Paul, who was truly an unbeliever, only deserved condemnation, and not that he was in fact condemned. Would this not imply that he wasn’t actually condemned, but only in a state of belief that would result in condemnation if not corrected?

    This is what we believe. In this passage of John we are simply being told that those who do not believe have placed themselves in a condition that will ultimately result in condemnation if not reversed. They stand condemned in this life as to the things of God, not having His Spirit with them; and will stand condemned in eternity if they do not turn from their unbelief.

  137. 137 JBR
    March 15, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Shem… then I wrote it in such a way that lead you to the wrong conclusion.

    I was trying to say a few of things:

    1) Paul was deceived despite being so sure of himself that he was correct and those “christians” were not.

    2) Paul admits that if it were not for his unusual conversion…that he deserved condemnation and should have because he was doing was convinced that I’m saved “after all you can do”

    3) Paul was being perspective of his own situation of the grace given while alive. Never does he claim that such an opportunity is offered beyond this lifetime as Kate (and many other Mormons) claims that Mormonism does.

    4) Fact is that God’s judgement can (and does) occure prior to dying. Which all one has to do is to know this is to read (and believe what you’re reading) from what has been revealed in the Bible.

  138. 138 shematwater
    March 15, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    JBR

    And again you skirt the issue. You say that judgment can occur in this life, and I would actually agree with that. But you do not affirm what you said before, that it does.
    Your interpretation of John 3: 18 was that everyone who does not believe is judged in this life and condemned. Great. So, by that reasoning Paul was condemned for not believing.
    However, in your last to posts you only make the allusion that he deserved condemnation, but never actually say he was condemned. This I find interesting. Are you unwilling to admit that Paul was condemned, but that he was brought out of that condemnation? This would be a perfectly reasonable belief, and one that I could agree with. But the fact that you skirt the issue, never actually stating this to be the case leaves one wondering as to what you actually mean.

    “Which all one has to do is to know this is to read (and believe what you’re reading) from what has been revealed in the Bible.”

    The problem here is that you do not actually mean we should believe what we read, but that we should believe what you interpret the Bible to mean. I have read this passage many times and I have never read the meanings that most Christians want it to have. I still believe every word it says, I just understand them differently.

  139. 139 Joshtried
    March 15, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    I want to comment on the ignorance is no excuse thing, as it ties in with the last comment. You are not ignorant if you have NO WAY of knowing what is correct. For instance, if u live in the middle of a desert, and never leave, never see a church, and no one ever comes and tells you of the redemptive power of Christ. In this case you are ignorant, by no fault of your own. You have no idea that you should be looking for the truth. Especially if you are living an otherwise good life, no one is going to sugggest you change, because you show no signs of needing to change. How would that be their fault. Is this as likely today, not really. Would this have been very real in the past? Definitely. What if you are taught about Christ today and THINK you accepted him correctly? You dont think you would be given a chance to accept him correctly? Whether you will or not is not up to me, but when Christ says he wants everyone to return to him, I believe him.


Comments are currently closed.

March 2012
M T W T F S S
« Feb   Apr »
 1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
262728293031  

Blog Stats

  • 182,308 hits

Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

Join 998 other followers


%d bloggers like this: