14
Mar
12

The Living Prophet

Chapter 6 in the Teachings of George Albert Smith deals with the responsibility LDS members have to sustain their leaders.  Incidentally this is also emphasized in the March issue of the LDS church magazine, the Ensign.  Leaders are sustained at conferences by the members raising their right hands.  As both this chapter and the Ensign articles emphasize, the more important aspect of sustaining the leaders is by following their counsel, accepting the calls the leaders call them to, and by praying for them.

Most of chapter 6 deals with sustaining the president of the church, who is also their living prophet.  The following quote from that chapter gives the flavor of its advice.  Note how it ties in salvation with following LDS leadership.

“There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead.  I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course.  If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.” (p. 60)

A number of years ago, Ezra Taft Benson, who was one of Mormonism’s living prophets, gave a speech entitled, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”.  Over the years, numerous Mormons have not entirely embraced these fundamentals.  But they remain a good summary of Mormonism’s teachings about the living prophet especially because they have been quoted in their entirety twice in recent General Conferences.  Here they are as given by Elder Kevin R. Duncan of the Seventy in the October, 2010 General Conference.

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

“Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

“Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

“Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture.

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

“Fourteenth: [Follow] … the living prophet and the First Presidency … and be blessed; reject them and suffer.” 

The second and third points are especially enlightening.  The standard works are the books the LDS Church views as Scripture including the Bible.  The living prophet, it states, is more vital than Scripture.  Or consider point 3.  Who are the dead prophets?  Included in that list would be all the biblical prophets.  In light of statements like these, who is reflecting the teachings of official Mormonism more consistently:  the person who says that the highest authority in Mormonism is the Bible or the one who says that the highest authority in Mormonism is the living prophet?  And if the claim is made that there is no conflict between the two, than what is the purpose of the second and third fundamental listed above?

When Mormons sustain their living prophet, something they will do again in a couple of weeks at General Conference, they are saying that his words are the most important words in the entire world – more vital than Scripture – more important than those of Moses, Isaiah, and all the biblical prophets.

A LDS leader one time told me that he felt sorry for me because the only thing I had to follow were the words of the Bible.  Today I want to express my sorrow that Mormons, by their sustaining of the living prophet, are declaring that he is more vital than the Bible, that he is more important than all the prophets in the Bible. That not only does dishonor to the Bible; that also puts their eternity into jeopardy.

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42 Responses to “The Living Prophet”


  1. March 14, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    God never forsakes his children, whether they lived in Old Testament times, or now. When Moses was gone, Joshua was called by God to take over after Moses died. As you see, God will not leave His children without guidance. The Lord commanded Joshua how to lead and guide His people giving instruction to Joshua to then give command to the officers over the people. One of the commands Joshua gave his people as instructed by the Lord, was:

    Joshua 1: 11, “Prepare you victuals; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which the Lord your God giveth you to possess it.”

    Was this command for any other people years or decades later? Is this command for us now? Of course not. He was a prophet called at that time to guide those people. Are some of the things he said or taught relevant to us today? Yes, all truth and wisdom of God is. However, there are some things commanded at the time, which are not relevant to us today in any way whatsoever.

    Show me where God does NOT provide a prophet to lead and guide His people throughout the Bible. Nowhere does Jesus teach that His true church does not include Prophets and Apostles.

    I am thankful that the Lord has provided living prophets in our day, who have been called to reveal His wisdom to ALL of His children. God has always done this and always will ( Amos 3:7).

    “God raised up prophets in ancient Israel for the same reasons He raises up prophets today. They are to teach the people the laws of God and how to live them, call the people to repentance when necessary, and bear witness of Jesus Christ. The work of all true prophets of all ages is to act as God’s messenger and make known God’s will.” http://institute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-institute-student-manual-2/ot-in2-03-1kg-b-B.asp

    Since you mentioned it, here is the wonderful article about why we need prophets in the March Ensign for anyone interested in reading it.

    http://www.lds.org/liahona/2012/03/why-do-we-need-prophets?lang=eng

    And a great quote for you:

    “[T]here is again a living prophet on the earth speaking in the name of the Lord. And how we need such guidance! Our times are turbulent and difficult. We see wars internationally and distress domestically. Neighbors all around us face personal heartaches and family sorrows. Legions know fear and troubles of a hundred kinds.
    Referring to the prophet and apostles who lead the Church: [N]ever in my personal or professional life have I ever associated with any group who are so in touch, who know so profoundly the issues facing us, who look so deeply into the old, stay so open to the new, and weigh so carefully, thoughtfully, and prayerfully everything in between. It is no trivial matter for this church to declare to the world prophecy, seership, and revelation, but we do declare it. It is true light shining in a dark world…. (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, “Prophets in the Land Again,” Ensign, November, 2006, 104-107.[3])

    And here is a statement from the LDSNewsroom about LDS prophets:

    “Belief in prophets and apostles at the head of the Church does not mean that members blindly follow their leaders. While the prophet of God receives revelation and inspiration to guide the Church as a whole, revelation flows at every level, including to the leaders of congregations and to individual families and members. In fact, individual members are expected to seek that kind of divine guidance to help them in their own lives, in their responsibilities in the Church and even in temporal pursuits, including their occupations. Members are also expected to prayerfully seek their own “testimony” or conviction of the principles their leaders teach them.”

  2. 2 choosethechrist
    March 14, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    The Mormon Way:

    “There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.” (p. 60)

    A Mormon’s desire for salvation is dependant upon following leaders who would have them believe that they must keep the requirements of the LDS church in order to be exalted/saved and spend eternity in the presence of a Holy God who abhors sin. The blood of Christ is not enough to make the Mormon holy/worthy. They must do all they can do and hope that it is enough to receive exaltation. The blood of Christ does not cover all of their sin, but they must be 100% sin free to go before a Holy God who abhors sin. This is a sad thing for the Mormon because the alternative to not accepting Christ alone for salvation is an eternity in hell.

    God’s Way:

    If I desire salvation, I will follow the Word of God. I will put my faith in Jesus Christ alone who Heavenly Father has given to us. I will put my faith in the blood of Jesus which was shed on the cross for the atonment of sins for those who believe. I will trust the promises of God, that because Jesus sacrifeced once for all, that I am perfect, holy, and worthy to go before a holy God because of what Jesus did for me on the cross, not because of anything that I can or will do. If Jesus is my savior and I die today, I will be exalted and live in the presence of the Father for all eternity.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

    Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.

    2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Jeremiah 23:26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?

    Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

    Hebrews 10:10-17 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”

    17 Then he adds:

    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”

    Romans 10:10-13 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

  3. March 14, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Why is my comment being moderated? Are you afraid what I said will make what you said seem silly?

  4. 4 markcares
    March 14, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    Whenever there is more than one link in a comment, it automatically waits to be moderated.

  5. March 14, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    Ok, thank you…sorry I jumped to conclusions.

  6. 6 JBR
    March 15, 2012 at 5:20 am

    Yes, this mentality dishonors the Bible… unfortunatly soo many people are deceived by all the talk and imagery of the Bible being soooo important when in fact it’s no more than a third class citizen on the Titanic.

  7. 7 choosethechrist
    March 15, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    “The prophet will never lead the church astray.”

    Examples of being led astray:

    Teaching that being born with dark skin was a punishment led to these people being treated as an “inferior race.”

    Teaching that Adam was God led people to worship a false God.

    Teaching that Polygamy was required for gaining eternal life led much pain, suffering, and sorrow. Those being led by Warren Jeffs are still being subjected to this today.

    “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
    and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.”
    Brigham Young – JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

    Teaching that people must atone for some sins with their own blood led to the shedding of blood (e.g., the Mountain Meadows Massacre).

    “I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

    “My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.”
    -Ezra Taft Benson quoting Marion G. Romney quoting Heber J. Grant

    GOD WILL NOT BLESS YOU FOR FOLLOWNG SOMEONE ELSE IN DOING WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    “Listen to a prophet’s voice and obey. There is safety in following the living prophet.”
    -Elder Robert D. Hales

    Ezra Taft Benson stated regarding LDS prophets: “OUR SALVATION HANGS ON THEM”

    *****************God says our salvation hangs on Christ alone!*************************************************

    Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

    Colossians 2:9-10 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

    Colossians 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
    9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
    For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

    The Bible tells us NOT to follow a false prophet. Deuteronomy 18:20-22; Matthew 7:15-20; Revelation 19:20; 20:10.

  8. March 15, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Psalm 118:8-10

    “8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
    9It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.”

    I have a few observations about these fundamentals and how they sheild the workings of false prophets.

    “First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.”

    This allows him authority to alter every single sentence of God’s Word and claim his own inventions and delusions to be directly from God. He could rewrite, at will, the ten commandments or eliminate any or all them if he chose to do so. He could tell people that God told them they must do something which could be anything he wishes to be done. He could write his own new book of scripture, name it after himself, and call it supreme over every other word of scriptiure ever written. My point is, this is limitless and absolute power held by one man over the lives of every Mormon on the face of the earth.

    “Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

    This is a softer way of saying you must obey the living prophet even if it means breaking one of the ten commandments. Or he could halt a prior practice instituted by one of their own prior living prophets who is now dead – why? Because the prior prophet is dead.

    “Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.”

    What he says is more important than all of scripture. He is “more important” than Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Peter, Paul, James, John, Luke, Mark and Matthew among others.

    “Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.”

    This is exactly the opposite of what is good biblical practice to test the prophets. “1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1 Compare the mindset they want Mormons to have with Paul what said to the Galatians about if anyone INCLUDING HIMSELF were to preach a different gospel. “8But though WE, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9As we said before, so say I now again, if ANY man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ” Galatians 1:8-9

    “Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture.”

    Unlike other prophets this “prophet” doesn’t use these words used by every other prophet in the BIble to tell you when he is supposed to be speaking for God.

    “Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.”

    If what the prophet tells you is flat wrong or against your conscious or is a “half-truth” too bad.

    “Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.”

    The prophet doesn’t have to make sense.

    “Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.”

    When the prophet is caught contradicting himself or says something claiming it was from God and people just aren’t buying it, or it could cause people to becharged with crimes he can have yet another revelation and change his mind. Polygamy comes to mind here. So for a while God was supposedly OK with it, but then, God is unchanging, changed HIs mind and outlawed it.

    “Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.”

    Mitt Romney can run for President.

    “Fourteenth: [Follow] … the living prophet and the First Presidency … and be blessed; reject them and suffer.”

    Don’t dare question authority or what he does or you’ll pay dearly for it. This is contrary to the biblcal practice of testing the spirits mentioned before and the practice the Bible calls “noble” of testing what is preached to you by aanyone against the word of God. See Acts 17:11

  9. March 15, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Mormons, do you realize that you are following a false prophet? What do you believe is the consequence of following a false prophet?

    Our living prophet as Christians is Jesus.

  10. 10 Joshtried
    March 15, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    1. The prophet doesnt alter the ten commandments. (Christ boiled them all down to only 2… Love God, love each other)
    2. There is ALOT in the bible that does not have a bearing on what we do today. It doesnt mean it isnt important to know, just less pertinent than other things.
    For example, mark of the beast.. Our leaders have advised food storage. I see this as a way to HELP with this blow. Did everyone in history need food storage? It would have helped, but in our time taking the mark is to be damned.. So much more pertinent than whether Abraham sacrificed his child or not.
    3. Same comment on bible applies to prophets, this is not to say every word every prophet has ever said is disregarded, otherwise Jesus fulfilled absolutely zero prophecies… Which over course we sustain he has fulfilled.
    4. The prophet wont lead us (the church) astray because we understand what is right. Paul wouldnt teach a different gospel, just like the current prophets wont.
    6. It would be nice to say “thus saith”, and it would probably clarify alot of the stuff non LDS try to quote as all out doctrine. We should by this point in history understand that God talks through prophets. We shouldnt have to say “I am talking for God to tell you to stop sinning”. I dont do that when I talk with my kids, I simply say “lying is wrong”.
    7. Christ didnt tell the pharasies what they wanted to hear. He told them what needed to be said
    8. The prophet doesnt need to make sense (RIGHT NOW)
    9. KING DAVID WAS A POLYGAMIST. It was okay then, but not later in time.. It has been okay for all of history, but not now..
    10. I hope he has the momentum to win, the US is in bad shape. I guess we will see. OMG a mormon might be president.. Its cool to not be a racist country with a black president, but we are still a biased country, and dont like people that think different than me.
    14. Reject the message of God, and pay. So long as the message is of God

  11. 11 shematwater
    March 15, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Let us, for once, look at things and try to use our reasoning to understand them. Let me use David’s comments as an example.

    1. “This allows him authority to alter every single sentence of God’s Word and claim his own inventions and delusions to be directly from God….My point is, this is limitless and absolute power held by one man over the lives of every Mormon on the face of the earth.”

    No it isn’t. He is speaking for God, not as God. He has the authority to speak God’s will on all subjects, but he does not have the authority to change God’s will or deny his word.

    2. “This is a softer way of saying you must obey the living prophet even if it means breaking one of the ten commandments. Or he could halt a prior practice instituted by one of their own prior living prophets who is now dead – why? Because the prior prophet is dead.”

    In the same way that Abraham obeyed God’s will to sacrifice Isaac when commanded, even though it meant breaking the command not to murder. Or what about Peter declaring the discontinuance of circumcision, a practice that was followed for several centuries.

    3. “What he says is more important than all of scripture. He is “more important” than Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Peter, Paul, James, John, Luke, Mark and Matthew among others.”

    What he says is scripture, and is given for our particular circumstances. Just as Noah didn’t turn to the writings of previous prophets to figure out how to build the Arc; or Moses didn’t rely on past prophets to detail out the many sacrifices that were added at that time. This information was vital at the time, but is not vital today. The same if true of the Temple of Solomon. We don’t really need to know how much gold was used, and all that, but the ancient Israelites did.
    Also, it has nothing to do with importance. It has to do with relevance. All the prophets are important, and we should study all there words. But if the living prophet tells us that God wants us to gather to a specific area we should not try to find where in the Bible it talks about that area.

    4. “This is exactly the opposite of what is good biblical practice to test the prophets.”
    No it doesn’t; unless you are implying that a true prophet is going to lead people astray. Although I think you are more saying that this means we are not to test the prophets, but to follow them blindly. This is, of course, ridiculous, as by the time they have been appointed to that position they have been well tested and are being sustained because they have passed with flying colors.

    6. “Unlike other prophets this “prophet” doesn’t use these words used by every other prophet in the Bible to tell you when he is supposed to be speaking for God.”
    An interesting statement, considering that the phrase “thus saith the lord” doesn’t appear in the New Testament at all, and that most of the epistles have no actual reference to them being dictated by God. Actually, most of the prophets of the Old Testament do not begin their teaching with a direct reference to God dictating the wording. This usually only happens when they are pronouncing a judgment from God.

    7. “If what the prophet tells you is flat wrong or against your conscious or is a “half-truth” too bad.”
    No one ever needs to know false doctrine, and so the prophet will never tells us something that is wrong or only half true. Now, it may be against our conscious, but then it was against Abraham’s conscious to sacrifice Isaac. (Note: not everything the prophet says is meant to be scripture, and point seven is not talking about these times.)

    8. “The prophet doesn’t have to make sense.”
    This is especially interesting when you consider that just a few weeks ago every non-LDS on this site was defending their belief that logic has no place in understanding God. Seems a bit hypocritical to require our faith to be logical while saying that logic can’t apply to yours.
    However, this statement is perfectly in harmony with the Bible. God’s understanding is far greater than ours, and so if he tells us something it true it doesn’t matter if our own logic could have gotten us to that understanding or not.

    9. “When the prophet is caught contradicting himself or says something claiming it was from God and people just aren’t buying it, or it could cause people to be charged with crimes he can have yet another revelation and change his mind. Polygamy comes to mind here. So for a while God was supposedly OK with it, but then, God is unchanging, changed His mind and outlawed it.”
    What? This brings to mind the practice of animal sacrifice and circumcision, both of which were instituted by God, and both of which He ended.
    What this point is really saying is that the prophet is not limited in his revelations from God to matters concerning doctrine. He can, and has, received revelation on matters of a more temporal nature; such as the starting of a sugar beat plant in Utah.

    10. “Mitt Romney can run for President.”
    Civic does not mean political. However, what this is saying is that a prophet is not restricted in his activities by his calling, but can participate in the various legal procedures of government. He can make statements regarding various referendums and propositions, as well as serve on a jury.
    Mitt Romney is not the president, so this statement does not apply to him or his campaign.

    14. “Don’t dare question authority or what he does or you’ll pay dearly for it. This is contrary to the biblcal practice of testing the spirits mentioned before and the practice the Bible calls “noble” of testing what is preached to you by aanyone against the word of God. See Acts 17:11”
    So completely contrary it is ridiculous. I mean, just look at how not following the counsel of the prophets worked so beautifully for the ancient Israelites. They didn’t need to follow the guidance of God’s chosen prophets. Think of the suffering that Israel avoided when they didn’t follow Moses. I am sure that the forty years in the wilderness had nothing to do with rebelling.
    The bible is so clear that this kind of statement is just baffling. Every time the people rejected a true propeht and did not follow his counsel they met with Great suffering on all sides. Every time they accepted and followed the guidance they were given they prospered.

    Of course, since David doesn’t believe that there are modern prophets what he says is the only plausible reason for giving these guidelines. The fact that every single one of them is applied to all the prophets of the Bible by both the people of that time and the modern Christian doesn’t seem to enter the reasoning process.
    Simply put, every negative thing David had to say about this list can be just as easily applied to every prophet in the Bible by those who do not believe (and actually is applied by many).

  12. 12 shematwater
    March 15, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    CHOOSE

    Let us correct some of your statements.

    “Teaching that Adam was God led people to worship a false God.”
    I know of no one who ever worshiped any God but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (except those that fell away from the church).
    Also, until you actually understand what Brigham Young believed, and that he never taught it as doctrine, don’t try to pass it off as leading the church astray.

    “Teaching that Polygamy was required for gaining eternal life led much pain, suffering, and sorrow.”
    Only for those who either rejected it or abused it. Also, it was Plural Marriage, not polygamy. The greatest sorrow came only when people refused to follow the prophet and broke away to form apostate groups (like Warren Jeffs). I find it interesting that according to the people actually living this practice in Utah most had no problem with it, and even embraced it. The fact that woman were more likely to embrace it than men is also interesting.
    Also note that it is an acceptance of the practice that is required, not the practice itself.

    “Teaching that people must atone for some sins with their own blood led to the shedding of blood”
    This was used by some to justify the shedding of blood, but was never intended to be be understood in the way it was applied. It really is just a more powerful way of endorsing capital punishment, and does not sanction simply killing people.
    It is actually the exact same thing as all the wonderful death penalties proscribed for in the Law of Moses.

  13. March 15, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Echo: “Mormons, do you realize that you are following a false prophet? What do you believe is the consequence of following a false prophet?
    Our living prophet as Christians is Jesus.”

    Ephesians 4:11 (New Living Translation) “Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.”

    Why?

    From Barnes’ Notes on the Bible from http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-11.htm

    “And he gave some, apostles – He gave some to be apostles. The “object” here is to show that he has made ample provision FOR THE EXTENSION AND EDIFICATION OF HIS CHURCH.” (emphasis mine).

    “And some, prophets – He appointed some to be prophets; see the Romans 12:7, note; 1 Corinthians 12:28, note; 1 Corinthians 14:1, notes.”

    “And some, evangelists – see the notes on Acts 21:8; compare 2 Timothy 4:5. The word does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. What was the precise office of the evangelist in the primitive church, it is now impossible to determine. The evangelist “may” have been one whose main business was “preaching,” [Missionaries?] and who was not particularly engaged in the “government” of the church.” [my comment in brackets]

    Mormon’s have it right. And Jesus Christ is our Savior.

  14. March 15, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    1 Corinthians 13:8 “But where there are prophecies, they will cease”

  15. March 15, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    What do you believe is the consequence of following a false prophet?

  16. March 15, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Echo, you scriptural reference is all referring the Charity and that without charity, all other things which are just parts of the whole will fail. It is not saying what you are implying.

  17. March 15, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Echo: I know that I am not following a false prophet. So I am not concerned with your question.

    You might want to take this passage of scripture to heart:

    James 4: 11-12
    “Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
    There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?”

  18. March 15, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    Kate said: “Echo, you scriptural reference is all referring the Charity and that without charity, all other things which are just parts of the whole will fail. It is not saying what you are implying.”

    1 Corinthians 13:8 “But where there are prophecies, they will cease”

    Prophecy has nothing to do with charity

    Kate said: “You might want to take this passage of scripture to heart: James 4: 11-12
    “Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
    There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?”

    If you and I don’t judge prophets to discern whether or not they are false prophets we will be misled by them. Scripture commands us to judge prophets.

  19. March 15, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Shem

    This one will be shorter.

    True Prophets actually DO speak for God and their prophesies corroberate each others over time. For example, Jesus fulfiled every single prophecy spoken about Him. Theses are too numerous to mention and if did mention them – you’d probably skip over them :) . True prophets don’t overrule other prophets and declare themselves to be more important than following God’s law. They didn’t empower themselves to overwrite and replace potentially every prior sentence spoken by the same God. They didn’t contradict other prophets. The didn’t shy away from people checking what they said against what scripture actually says. AND THEY NEVER MADE A MISTAKE.

    They need to leave behind no evidence that could expose their fraud.

    Above all false prophets need to be masters of deception. So their approch is “No questions please – or else” (sound familiar).

  20. March 15, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Echo, I don’t have time to parse the whole chapter of Corinthians for you to show you that he is speaking of all the parts of the whole and without charity that it doesn’t matter if we can prophesy or have knowledge. For you to act like you don’t know that is just dragging it all out to confuse others.

    I am talking about judging us Echo. I already know that I am following a true Prophet, the one God has called to lead His Church on the earth today. I said, I am not concerned about your question. I am concerned however, for you, who has judged me and every other LDS person here. That is why I quoted the passage and asked you to consider it.

  21. March 15, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Correction for above:

    “They need to leave behind no evidence that could expose their fraud.”

    “Above all false prophets need to be masters of deception. So their approch is “No questions please – or else” (sound familiar).”

    These lines are referring obviously to false prophets.

  22. March 15, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Kate said: “Echo, I don’t have time to parse the whole chapter of Corinthians for you to show you that he is speaking of all the parts of the whole and without charity that it doesn’t matter if we can prophesy or have knowledge. For you to act like you don’t know that is just dragging it all out to confuse others.”

    If anyone wants to read the context carefully, it states that prophecy will cease but charity never ceases.

    Kate said: “I am talking about judging us Echo. I already know that I am following a true Prophet, the one God has called to lead His Church on the earth today. I said, I am not concerned about your question. I am concerned however, for you, who has judged me and every other LDS person here. That is why I quoted the passage and asked you to consider it.”

    The scripture commands us to do all sorts of judging Kate. The judging the scripture condemns is like the kind of judging you did here before you were admonished by everyone. Your recent judging of Mark because your post was held for moderation is another example of the kind of judging that scripture condemns. Although you did apologize for that. Thank you. But it is an example.

  23. March 15, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    If you say so Echo. You have judged my condition with God. That is not for you to do because He is judge not you. That is what the verse if speaking of. For you to say it’s about what I did is silly. We all sin and fall short, remember? But I believe Christ when He Atoned for all the stupid mistakes I will make. I am not condemned. It would do you well to ask God to show you what those verses are speaking about, so you can know for yourself that your condemnation of us is what he is speaking of in that verse.

  24. March 15, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    One other point about false prophets, especially about the LDS false prophets. It is this fundamental in particular:

    “Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.” Jesus said:

    “34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!” Luke 13:34

    You fault Christianity for not following new prophets when you don’t bind yourselves to any prophet except the one that happens to be alive at the time. That one prophet at any given moment could overwrite and render null and void anything any prior prophet ever said in the name of God, including true biblical prophets and your own prior LDS false prophets. Once a prophets dies, ANYTHING they said can be rendered utterly meaningless and reversed. Destroying or contradicting the prior message of true prophets, is no different than silencing them, or refusing to listen to them simply because they are dead.

    Multiple passages from Isaiah are not heeded in the LDS church just as one example.

  25. 25 choosethechrist
    March 15, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    Josh said, “9. KING DAVID WAS A POLYGAMIST. It was okay then, but not later in time.. It has been okay for all of history, but not now.”

    Deuteronomy 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

    It was never ok.

  26. 26 choosethechrist
    March 15, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    Regarding this: “Teaching that Polygamy was required for gaining eternal life led much pain, suffering, and sorrow.”
    Shem said, “Only for those who either rejected it or abused it. Also, it was Plural Marriage, not polygamy. The greatest sorrow came only when people refused to follow the prophet and broke away to form apostate groups (like Warren Jeffs). I find it interesting that according to the people actually living this practice in Utah most had no problem with it, and even embraced it. The fact that woman were more likely to embrace it than men is also interesting.”

    Warren Jeffs is following original Mormonism and if Joseph Smith had not taught it, Warren Jeffs would not be practicing it.

    I know of some men with multiple wives who fled to Mexico to escape prosecution leaving their wives behind to fend for themselves. This brought hardship, sorrow, and suffering.

    The Bible teaches that we are always to be in submission to the laws of our government. Mormons did not follow the laws of the land.

  27. 27 shematwater
    March 16, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    DAVID

    You have no understanding. A living prophet cannot make void the truths of a dead prophet. However, a dead prophet is no longer here and thus is no longer capable of leading this church.
    In other words, once Moses was gone the people looked to Joshua to tell them what needed to be done and to divide the lands among the tribes. He did not undo what Moses had done, for all that had been promised by Moses was fulfilled. But he still led the people in those areas that Moses had not spoken of.
    Notice that Moses added a whole new legal system to the Abrahamic Covenant (see Galatians 3). Also note that Christ did away with the Law of Moses. By your reasoning they are both false prophets for they have made void that which previous prophets have taught.
    You have no sense in what you say. You condemn a modern prophet for doing exactly what ancient prophets have done in the past and claim that you have an understanding of what a prophet it.

    Of course, most of the supposed problems you list are drawn out of your own fancy and applied with no understanding, and by ignoring what I have said. Everything that you describe as a true prophet applies beautifully to the leaders of the LDS church, and anyone who claims otherwise knows nothing of our religion.

    CHOOSE

    Deuteronomy 17: 17 is a list of things that a King is not supposed to take in hordes. In other words it is saying that a King should not use his authority to take many wives and concubines (thus committing whoredoms). This is what is meant by multiplying wives (actually indicating a kind of tax or tribute) and this is what David and Solomon did. They claimed many women as wives through their power as King.
    It obviously doesn’t refer to the general practice of plural marriage because the practice is outlined in the Law of Moses, giving details on how a husband is to treat such a relationship, as well as laws of inheritance among the children of multiple wives.
    It would be quite the contradiction to have the laws detail how a man can have multiple wives, and then later state that he can’t.

    Note: Warren Jeffs may claim to follow original teaches of Joseph Smith, but such a claim is false. He does not follow what Joseph taught, but follows a twisted and distorted version of it. Don’t confuse the two. That group is lead by false prophets that have caused great suffering because they have lost the spirit of God and have turned to their own lusts. This is well outlined in Jacob chapter two where the people are condemned for the sorrow caused to their wives in practicing plural marriage without the divine authority of God. The same is true with Warren Jeffs group. They practice without divine authority and cause great sorrow.

    As to obeying the laws of the land, this should never take precedence over obeying the laws of God. Unless you believe that all the early Christians should have left the faith when the Roman Emperor made Christianity illegal.
    It is also true that, in large part, they were not braking the law. Most of the people who were being arrested had many wives long before the law was past, and thus could not be held in violation of it (as by the constitution).

  28. 28 choosethechrist
    March 16, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Shem said, “It obviously doesn’t refer to the general practice of plural marriage because the practice is outlined in the Law of Moses, giving details on how a husband is to treat such a relationship, as well as laws of inheritance among the children of multiple wives.”

    We were talking about David:

    “Josh said, “9. KING DAVID WAS A POLYGAMIST. It was okay then, but not later in time.. It has been okay for all of history, but not now.”

    Deuteronomy 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

    It was never ok.”

  29. March 16, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Shem

    “You have no understanding. A living prophet cannot make void the truths of a dead prophet.”

    Tell me what law of any Biblical prophet or aposlte requires temple worthiness or requires secret handshakes as a precondition of being with the Heavely Father..

  30. 30 Kent
    March 16, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    “Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture.”

    He doesn’t have to say ‘thus saith the Lord’ to make something scripture because the Lord isn’t the one saying it anyway as the Bible says no one is to add to God’s words. I know Mormons may say that the passages below are saying that no one is to add to the proverbs but it doesn’t just say don’t add to the proverbs it says don’t add to God’s words.

    Proverbs 30:5-6

    5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
    6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

  31. March 16, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Shem

    “Notice that Moses added a whole new legal system to the Abrahamic Covenant (see Galatians 3). Also note that Christ did away with the Law of Moses. By your reasoning they are both false prophets for they have made void that which previous prophets have taught.”

    Now you are not listening or skimming ahead again – whichever. As I have posted before at another posting:

    “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
    Romans 10:4

    It is Joseph Smith and the false prophets behind him that are teaching their members a faith that would seek to diminish the very work of Jesus Christ. I’ll give you a fundamental example using the very heart of the gospel of Jesus. Mormons refuse to believe that ALL unbelievers are condemned. Even an unrepentant serial killer with absolutely NO faith in Jesus whatsoever and who has never been baptized is not condemned. No, to the LDS church such a man is not condemned – he goes to the Telestial Kingdom – a paradise.
    “89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

    What does Jesus say?

    “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16

    Do you believe Jesus in Mark 16:16 or do you believe your won prophet?

  32. March 16, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Shem

    One other thing

    In your own JST translation of the BIble; Mark 16:15, says what Mark 16:16 says in the KJV.

    “15 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be damned. ”

    How in the world does that possibly agree with:

    “89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

    which provides a paradise for the very people Jesus HImself said are destined to be damned.

  33. 33 shematwater
    March 16, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    KENT

    i agree that this is referring to what God says in its entirety, but it only prohibits men from adding to His word. it does not say that God can not add to his own word, or that he won’t.
    Consider when this Proverb was written. Since that time how many prophets have given us more of the word of God. This would include the entire New Testament, and several books of the Old Testament. It can’t mean that no new prophet will arise to give more of God’s word, as such an understanding would make void all these who wrote after this was written.

    DAVID

    Condemnation can mean many things, just as salvation can. Those who do not believe are condemned to an eternity separated from the presence of God. They are condemned to a stagnate existence in which they can neither progress or increase.
    Note that in Mark 16: 16 (or in the JST) it does not say they are condemned to the lake of fire that is reserved for the Devil and his angels. it only says they are condemned, and they are, in the manner that I have just described.

    “Do you believe Jesus in Mark 16:16 or do you believe your own prophet?”

    i believe both, as they are in perfect harmony. What I do not believe is the false doctrines and traditions that you hold to, nor do I accept your interpretation of the scriptures.

    CHOOSE

    So what you are saying is that it was never okay for David to have multiple wives, but that it was okay for others. Still a bit contradictory.

  34. March 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Shem

    “They are condemned to a stagnate existence in which they can neither progress or increase.”

    So when Jesus says “damned” He really means
    “. . . the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

    And you say I have no ounderstanding.

    “Damned” only means one thing – “damned.”

  35. March 17, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Shem

    “Note that in Mark 16: 16 (or in the JST) it does not say they are condemned to the lake of fire that is reserved for the Devil and his angels. it only says they are condemned, and they are, in the manner that I have just described.”

    Let’s look at that from another perspective. According to the LDS chruch even unrepentant sinners can escape the outer darkness. They believe, like you do, that unbelief doesn’t mean spending eternity in the outer darkness. Here is another area where Jesus clearly says something, this time specifically about the consequences of sin, that the LDS church does not:

    ” 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kngdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-48

    That is certainly not the same as unbelieving sinners experiencing “. . . the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

    How do you explain that very stark differnce?

  36. 36 choosethechrist
    March 17, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    Shem said, “So what you are saying is that it was never okay for David to have multiple wives, but that it was okay for others. Still a bit contradictory.”

    What I am saying is that God said it was not ok for David or any king to “multiply” their wives. I never said what God said about everyone else.

    What I have been trying to get at is that the LDS here should not be using David, Solomon, or any other king in the Bible to justify polygamy because God clearly said they should not have been multiplying their wives.

  37. March 19, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Jeremiah 23:26, “How long shall there be lies in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, and who prophesy the deceit of their own heart.”

    Just five of the many lies from LDS prophets leading people into darkness:

    Lie – 1. That Bible contains errors and was corrupted:

    The truth is – “5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” Proverbs 30

    “23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” 1 Peter 1:23-25.

    Lie – 2. That unrepentant unbelieving sinners will experience “. . . the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

    The Truth – Jesus Hmself said – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16

    Jesus also described what happens because of sin when he said –

    ” 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kngdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-48

    Lie 3 – “Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so that we can become like him.” Gospel Principles pp. 241-242.

    The Truth – Jesus Himself said – “30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” Matthew 22:30.

    Lie 4 – “16 Therefore ye are justified of FAITH AND WORKS, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,” Joseph Smith corruption of Romans 4:16 in the JST Bible. That this is somehow a restored gospel claiming that works is a requirement for justification.

    The Truth – “16Therefore it is of FAITH, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16 KJV. “8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. We are save by grace alone through faith alone.

    Lie 5 – “The laws of God given to mankind are embodied in the gospel plan, and the Church of Jesus Christ is made responsible for teaching these laws to the world. They are given by our Heavenly Father for only one purpose, that you who are governed by law might also be preserved by law and perfected and sanctified, or made holy by the same.” Teachings of Presidents of the Church-Harold B. Lee, page 27

    The Truth – “20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” Romans 3:19-21. “14For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” Hebrews 10:14.

  38. 38 shematwater
    March 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    DAVID

    Mark 9: 43-48
    This is talking about those who know the truth. He is addressing this to the apostles. What he is saying is that it is better for one who knows the truth to separate themselves from the wicked and sinful (hand being friends, eye being family) to avoid being pulled away by them.
    Those who once knew the truth and then fall away completely are those who will spend eternity in the lake of Fire reserved for the Devil and his angels. This passage is talking about these people, not all sinners.

  39. March 19, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Shem

    “This passage is talking about these people, not all sinners.”

    Listen to yourself. Jesus didn’t say what you said. Quite the contrary what He is teaching is for ALL sinners to take sin seriously, not just for some people. He didn’t qualify it or limit it. His warning is for everyone to take sin seriously. God takes his law seriously. He didn’t say sin is no big deal if you are ignorant. You can try to say he meant something else, but that simply shows you refuse to accept His teachings as HE expressed them. He is more articulate than you and knows what He means when he says it. Your LDS faith forces you to consistently rewrite scritpure to say what you want it to say. That is a very dangerous thing to do.

    “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16

  40. 40 shematwater
    March 20, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    DAVID

    Are you baptized?

    It is better that a person enter heaven halt (having cut off his hand) then to be dragged to hell being whole. What does this mean. It means that a person who knows the truth is better off severing all ties with wicked friends than to allow them to drag them down into Hell.
    It is better that a person enter into heaven blind (having plucked out their eye) than to be dragged down to hell seeing. What does this mean? It means that a person who knows the truth is better off severing all ties with a wicked family than to allow them to drag them down to hell.

    Now, I will say that my last comment does narrow the scope a little. After all, all the wicked will spend time in Hell, suffering the wrath of God, which is compared to a fire that never dies. So, it is not only talking about those who fall to becomes sons of perdition. But it is talking about those who once knew the truth and have allowed others to draw them away into wickedness.

    But, let us be clear about one thing. This passage, while saying the people are dragged into the fire, does not state how long they will be there. As such this verse is very true, for if we allow our friends and family to draw us into wickedness we will spend time in hell. However, it in no way contradicts the fact that eventually the wicked will come out of hell and spend the rest of eternity in the Telestial kingdom, where they will continue to suffer the torment of guilt and regret, which can also be compared to a lake of fire.

  41. March 20, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Shem

    Yes I’m baptized into the Christian church. I wish I could say the same for you. Hell is not temporary it is the eternal fire. Its not where God puts sinners in time out.

    “However, it in no way contradicts the fact that eventually the wicked will come out of hell and spend the rest of eternity in the Telestial kingdom, where they will continue to suffer the torment of guilt and regret, which can also be compared to a lake of fire.”

    Really? How does that square with “. . . the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89.

  42. 42 shematwater
    March 21, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    DAVID

    One can be in paradise, but if they are riddled with guilt they will still be in torment. The Telestial Glory is a place of glory that surpasses all understanding, but this is describing the condition of the place as compared to our current condition, not as compared to the Celestial glory. That is what you are failing to understand here.

    Think of it in this way: The Earth is compared to the frigid conditions of the North Pole. Now if that is the only climate one has ever known than the comparable warmth of the state of Maine surpasses there understanding. Thus, a person freezing in Alaska, not knowing that the tropics exist, would welcome the warmth of Maine.
    However, a person who knows about the tropics, but fails to do what is necessary to get there will not be as content with Maine, for they will know that there is something even better, and that they failed to attain it.

    The degrees of glory are the same way. The Telestial is so much greater than what we have here in mortality that we cannot comprehend it, and for those who know of nothing better it is a welcome place. However, for those who know that the Celestial, a place of infinitely greater glory, is attainable, and yet find themselves confined to the Telestial, will be in a state of torment, knowing that they could have received more, but failed to do so.


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