24
Mar
12

Before and After Pictures

There were two sets of before and after pictures.  They were pictures of two people’s mouths – before and after dental work.  The before picture in the first set showed some crooked teeth and a few others with cavities.  The after picture naturally showed the same mouth but now with perfectly straight teeth and not a cavity in sight.  This set touted the work of one dentist.

The second set, touting the work of another dentist, showed a much more drastic change.  That before picture revealed a mouth with major problems.  As you looked at the picture, you wondered how the person could even close his mouth or eat anything.  The after picture amazingly resembled the after picture of the first set – perfectly aligned teeth with not a problem in sight.  It was obvious that a highly skilled dentist worked on it.

Obviously, I don’t want to talk about dentists.  I want to talk about how wonderfully God has worked on me.  And one way that I can emphasize his incredible work is by showing people my before picture.  The Bible paints it vividly.  I was a lawless rebel.  (1 John 3:4).  I was totally corrupt and evil. (Genesis 8:21) I was spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) always doing sin’s biding. (John 8:34)  I did no good; I was worthless (Romans3:10-12).  A viler picture could not be drawn. That was my picture – really, not figuratively.

But then the Lord worked on me.  He washed me and cleansed me (1 John 1:7).  He made me spiritually alive (Eph. 2 5).  He created a new heart within me (2 Cor.5:17).  He changed me from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness (Rom.6:17-18).  He adopted me into his family (Gal. 4:5).  He sanctified me and made me holy (Heb.10:10-14).  He did this all for me through Jesus Christ.

The tremendous contrast between my before and after pictures emphasizes the greatness of what God has done.  But when that contrast is lessened, when the before picture is of a basically good person who needs a little work, then God is robbed of his glory.  And robbing God of his glory is no small thing.

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72 Responses to “Before and After Pictures”


  1. 1 joshtried
    March 24, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Just to follow…
    Any specific questions for me, i can be reached at williams.joshuajames@yahoo.com

  2. March 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    I like your dentist analogy.

    Borrowing from your analogy, In Mormonism, the Dentist tells people to fix their own teeth. However, since the patient is not a Dentist, he will never succeed at doing it and in the end, all his teeth will fall out. (Outer Darkness)

    In Christianity, The Dentist has already done all the work and our teeth are now perfect. For Christians, the “before” and “after” pictures have already taken place.
    Christ’s perfect sinless righteousness has been imputed to us…

    Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is *credited* as righteousness.”

    Romans 4:6 “David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God *credits* righteousness apart from works”

    Romans 5:17 “For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the *gift of righteousness* reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.”

  3. March 24, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    I second what Dave said. Come on back Josh, you are always welcome here.

  4. 5 joshtried
    March 24, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    Welcome is one thing. If nothing i say is going to be listened to because i am not an authoratative person within the LDS church, then i have nothing to say. I will continue to follow the comments here, and if there is truly an opportunity to enlighten someone then i may speak. Until then, i hope that we all come to realize a hard heart will gain us nothing, in this life or the next.

  5. March 25, 2012 at 12:40 am

    Josh said: “If nothing i say is going to be listened to because i am not an authoratative person within the LDS church, then i have nothing to say”

    What you personally believe about LDS teachings is important to us and we will listen. However, what you do say doesn’t necessarily reflect official LDS teachings.

  6. 7 joshtried
    March 25, 2012 at 7:43 am

    This is not a comment on either side, but a message to both, as PART of a reply to a personal email.

    I appreciate that there are differences, and i strongly recognize where that difference comes from (genesis 11 to start…)
    While I wish that a universal understanding could happen, it will never happen, at least not in this lifetime, if for no other reason that the scripture quoted above (vs 7 specifically).
    As to the disagreement vs not listening issue, there is a clear difference between a scriptural disagreement, and all out not listening. If I tell you right here and right now that i believe in the saving power of Christ alone, that no other person that has lived or will ever lived can ever do anything in the world to get me into heaven, then perhaps this should be listened to. There may be LDS members who worship Joseph Smith, I can neither prove nor disprove this. What I can tell you is that if they do, they are wrong. I can tell you that Christ is the only way we are “saved”. As our definitions of this term varied, we (LDS) also sought to make the distinction between Christian and LDS understandings of this word. Yet time and again it basically came back to we dont believe only Christ gets us to heaven (the murders in heaven argument). This is not listening. Even those must accept Christ, but again, we differ as to the ability to choose after death. We again attempt to clarify this point, and are ramrodded again. (I do like that people do not just accept everything that they hear, but to understand a persons belief system helps to overall understand THEM, as well as the scripture that they rely on more fully. also, to understand is not to accept those beliefs. I understand the theory of evolution, but I accept that God spoke, and BANG it happened. see my point?)
    When we see each other as the enemy, we become the enemy.
    When we see that the other side thinks they are right, the value in their lives becomes apparent
    There are good people in both camps, people that are not intentionally trying to harm others, but that is not how either side is portrayed. Both are portrayed as liars. Both as said to be deceiving a great host of what could be the Lord’s army (this is not to say no one is trying to lie. I am no one else, and cannot verify their intent in anything)
    We are all here, speaking to each other on good terms through replies, instead of blasting the gospel that Satan spreads through the world. I think I would be correct to say everyone that posts here accepts that Satan is real, is has the power to deceive.
    I guess then it boils down to perspective, and to whether or not someone truly listens. When I say that I believe in Only Christ for his power to “save”, do you believe me? If I then add that I am a member of the LDS church, does that discredit my belief in Christ? If I were to say I was a Jew, would that discredit me?
    To me, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to disprove my belief in Christ.
    From this point, if my works carry absolutely no weight whatsoever, then accept ME saying I BELIEVE IN CHRIST. (the debate over works was a rather well battled fight on both sides. again, THIS is good for both sides. we learn from each other, and gain a better understanding of scripture through looking at it differently. To try and attack my belief in Christ though is appalling.)
    IF the Bible IS wrong, would this take away from your belief of Christ in ANY way, shape or form?
    Yall have been correct when you say that we do not have to believe a prophet (Joseph Smith) restored anything. We would get to “heaven”. We would be just as correct to say you dont have to believe 99.9% of what is in the Bible. Yall would get to “heaven”.

    I will most likely not reply to any specific responses, dont take it personally.

  7. 8 Kent
    March 25, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Joshtried said, “I guess then it boils down to perspective, and to whether or not someone truly listens. When I say that I believe in Only Christ for his power to “save”, do you believe me? If I then add that I am a member of the LDS church, does that discredit my belief in Christ? If I were to say I was a Jew, would that discredit me?
    To me, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to disprove my belief in Christ.”

    When you add you are a member of the LDS church I believe it shows you are heading down the wrong path as, and no I am not mocking your beliefs, but it hinges on who Jesus is.

    Because Jesus is not a created being, he is not Satan’s brother whose Salvation plan was accepted over his brother’s Satan’s salvation plan as Jesus has always been God, he was God even when He walked this earth which enabled him to live a perfect sinless life in order to be the perfect sacrifice to take away all the sins of the world, and He will always be God for all eternity. On the other hand Satan never had a salvation plan as the Bible does not teach he had one so the only salvation plan there has ever been or will ever be is God’s plan.

    So I believe that Jesus was never, ever a spirit child who somehow became God as He had no beginning whereas Satan had a beginning as He is a created being and since everything that was made that was made was through Jesus, He and Satan couldn’t be brothers as Satan is one of the angels that was created by Jesus.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Kate one time made the comment to me, as if I was mocking Mormons, that I know full well that you folks are speaking of the same Jesus but, no, I do not know this at all.

  8. March 25, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Quote from post #7 above: “If I tell you right here and right now that i believe in the saving power of Christ alone, that no other person that has lived or will ever lived can ever do anything in the world to get me into heaven, then perhaps this should be listened to.”

    I absolutely agree with this 100% and a person who says this should be listened to whether they are Mormon or Christian.
    That said, when a Mormon and a Christian both say: “I believe in the saving power of Christ alone that no other person that has lived or will ever lived can ever do anything in the world to get me into heaven”, that doesn’t mean that the Mormon and the Christian both mean the same thing by those words. And so this is where the misunderstanding of what Christians are saying comes into the picture.

    Christians attempt to make a point that while a Mormon may sincerely profess to believe in the saving power of Christ alone according to what that statement means in Mormonism, a Christian means to say to them that what that statement means in Mormonism, it does not mean in Christianity.

    Therefore from the Christian perspective, the Mormon’s sincere faith in the saving power of Christ alone (from a Mormon perspective) is NOT a faith in the saving power of Christ alone (from a Christian perspective). And this is where the misunderstanding comes into play. This is one area where we get erroneously tagged as “not listening”.

    When Mormons say they believe in the saving power of Christ alone, I don’t believe they are lying about that or are being insincere. On the contrary. However, according to the Christian understanding of what it means to have faith in the saving power of Christ alone, Mormons do not believe in the saving power of Christ alone.

    Does that make sense?

  9. 10 SBGTF
    March 25, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Joshtried said, “I guess then it boils down to perspective, and to whether or not someone truly listens. When I say that I believe in Only Christ for his power to “save”, do you believe me? If I then add that I am a member of the LDS church, does that discredit my belief in Christ? If I were to say I was a Jew, would that discredit me?
    To me, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to disprove my belief in Christ.”

    I don’t think it boils down to perspective, it boils down to truth. If you can say to me that you believe ONLY in Christ for his power to “save” and then tell me that you are a member of the LDS church, I can’t honestly believe you and it does discredit your belief in Christ and it is not my job to disprove or prove your belief in Christ as that is God’s job alone. It is my job to tell you the gospel truth and your job to answer God’s call or deny God’s call.

    If you are LDS and tell me that you believe only in the saving power of Christ alone, to you I must ask, why would you then subscribe to and follow the teachings of the LDS church because “salvation” through Christ alone is not the gospel message that is taught by the LDS church at all, and it doesn’t matter how many times any Mormon says they are saved by Christ alone, the writings of the LDS church clearly teach otherwise.

    Mormons have bought into the idea that being part of an elite group, being good, getting sealed to a spouse, etc is tied to eternal rewards and the thought that God would accept and give anything to anyone else who has not been as good or joined the right group or paid as many dues or done as much drives them nuts. How could God possibly give anything to anyone who has not done as much as someone else is a frequent LDS response.

    My analogy would be the one of the prodigal son. Mormons are the self righteous, rule keeping, elder brother who is in fact very far from God in spite of being “obedient” and “faithful” to the Father. The elder brother is just as far from the Father as the “disobedient” younger brother who broke the rules and rebelled outwardly toward the Father, yet when the rebel returned, God threw the rebel a party and the rebel who returned to the Father was given the reward while the elder brother stayed far from God in his anger and refusal to celebrate the return of the younger brother and it was his self righteousness that kept him far from the Father.

    Christians are the broken, rebelious son who returned to the Father and received the reward, not because of what we did, but because of returning to the Father. We came back to God and let Him cleanse us and make us a new creation. BEFORE AND AFTER!

    We all need to examine our hearts for any evidence of moralistic rule-keeping spirits that govern our relationship with God so that we don’t start to believe that God owes us anything for being “obedient” or “faithful” to him.

    Romans 3:9-20
    9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    11no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”
    13 “Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
    “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
    14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
    17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Recommended Reading: The Prodigal God by Tim Keller (can be found at Deseret Book)

  10. March 25, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    SBGTF said: “Mormons are the self righteous”

    Just to clarify for the Mormons reading this because I know Mormons will say that they are not “self righteous”. We are “listening” when you say you are not self-righteous. However Mormonism defines “self righteous” differently than Christians do. So while you may not consider yourselves “self righteous” by the Mormon definition. Christians see Mormons as “self righteous” by the Christian definition.

  11. 12 SBGTF
    March 25, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Thanks for pointing that out Echo.

    For Christians, self-righteousness is tied to legalism which is a system of rules and requirements needed to obtain salvation and spiritual growth. Legalists believe in and demand a strict literal adherence to rules and requirements and expect to be rewarded by God for their actions and deeds. An example would be the mormon who keeps certain church requirements and receives a certain reward or level of glory in a certain kingdom based on how they have lived their lives. If you don’t do all you should, you don’t get to dwell with God in the Celestial kingdom.

    Christians would discount this and say that God would accept all who come to Him and we all will go to the same heaven at death. God’s not going to sort us into different levels of glory based on how good we are. The Bible teaches none of us are “good”, yet all who come to God will dwell with Him in heaven for all eternity.

    Did I explain that clearly?

  12. 13 choosethechrist
    March 25, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Josh said, “If I tell you right here and right now that i believe in the saving power of Christ alone, that no other person that has lived or will ever lived can ever do anything in the world to get me into heaven, then perhaps this should be listened to.”

    Josh, unless you can tell me, knowing that I am not LDS, that you and I can both receive the same eternal reward to live with God in heaven forever because we have both put our faith in Christ alone for our “salvation”, if we were to both die today, I can’t believe that you are saved by the power of Christ alone.

  13. 14 shematwater
    March 25, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    ECHO

    You have illustrated the problem beautifully, and it is not that we have different concept or deffinitions. The problem is that you attempt to tell us what our perspective is, and deny us the right to correct you. You are not only trying to teach what you believe, but are trying to teach us what we believe.
    This is exactly how it comes accross when you tell us that we just represent opinion. You are basically saying, “That is fine that you believe that, but let me instruct you as to what your church really believes.” That is arrogance and condescentions.
    A case in point: “In Mormonism, the Dentist tells people to fix their own teeth. However, since the patient is not a Dentist, he will never succeed at doing it and in the end, all his teeth will fall out.”
    This is not LDS doctrine at all. It would be more accurate to say that the Dentist has said he would fix the teeth for free if we came to his office at an oppointed time, with the understanding that if we were late he would not be able to do as much work. Thus those who show up on time get the full treatment and perfect teeth, but those who show up late get lesser treatment, and thus not quite perfection. Outer Darkness would be those who simply don’t show up.

    This brings me back to the “After all you can do” thread when all the Non-LDS kept claiming that this verse declared that grace came after our work. I gave a direct quote from an apostle that stated that Grace came first, and our works were made possible by it (the drowning analogy) and every ignored this, and stuck to their point that grace was after works.

    Simply put, do not try to tell us what our perspective is, or what our church teaches. We already know.

    And just note that Self-Righteousness to the LDD refers to those who think they are better because they have more strickly kept the outward laws. This was illustrated well by the Pharisees who enlarged their borders and desplayed their phylacteries. It is an attempt to show through outward actions that you are more righteous, and thus better than those around you.
    So, we actually have the same definition here.

    SBGTF

    Read the parable of the Prodigal Son again, as you clearly have no understanding of what it is saying. The elder son was always close to his father, and it was this son who gained the reward. The son who squandered his inheritence got a party, a robe, and a ring, and was still a welcomed member of the family. But it is to the Eldest that the father declared “And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and ALL THAT I HAVE IS THINE. (Luke 15: 31)”
    The father declares the righteousness of the elder, and his inheritence of all that the Father hath. I don’t know about you, but I think this is a promise and honor worthy of striving for. I am honored that you would refer to me and my faith as the righteous who will inherit all things, while you are the wicked who, while being welcomed home, will inherit nothing.

    I can tell you that it is only through Christ that we can be saved, and that no amount of righteousness or ordinances will ever make such salvation possible.
    I think this is the biggest problem people have in understanding LDS doctrine. Works are required, but not as a way to gain, or earn salvation. They are a proof that we can handle salvation. No intelligent man gives his son a car until he knows his son can drive it. So too, God does not give salvation to anyone until he knows that they can use it properly.

    “Christians would discount this and say that God would accept all who come to Him and we all will go to the same heaven ”

    Actually, anyone who understands the LDS doctrine would discount your understanding as well, and would more agree with what I just quoted. It is not in performing ordinances, or in keeping commandments that we are saved. It is by our faith, for the just shall live by faith.
    However, the question must then be asked: How does one come to to Him? Or, how does one live by faith? This is where we start to disagree. We believe we come to him through baptism, and we live by faith in being obedient and following his spirit.
    What do you think coming to him and living by faith means?

  14. March 26, 2012 at 12:22 am

    God’s word speaks for itself:

    “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

    21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

    22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

    28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

    31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    11no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”

    All are wicked, all are sinners, no one is righteous, not even Shem.

    There’s always rejoicing in heaven when sinners come home. When are you coming home Shem?

  15. March 26, 2012 at 12:33 am

    Luke 15:7
    I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

  16. March 26, 2012 at 12:46 am

    Shem said: “You have illustrated the problem beautifully, and it is not that we have different concept or definitions. The problem is that you attempt to tell us what our perspective is, and deny us the right to correct you. You are not only trying to teach what you believe, but are trying to teach us what we believe.
    This is exactly how it comes across when you tell us that we just represent opinion. You are basically saying, “That is fine that you believe that, but let me instruct you as to what your church really believes.” That is arrogance and condescension.”

    This is incorrect. We aren’t trying to tell you or teach you what you believe. That is a misunderstanding on your part. Nor are we denying you the right to correct us. Another misunderstanding on your part. This is what we are doing, listen up carefully…we are attempting to show you Mormon beliefs through Christian eyes. We are not attempting to show you Mormon beliefs through Mormon eyes. So this is a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up so you understand what we are “really” doing. So let me know if I need to clarify it better. Would ya? Thanks.

    For example, the Dentist analogy…

    This is Mormonism through “Mormon” eyes…

    “It would be more accurate to say that the Dentist has said he would fix the teeth for free if we came to his office at an oppointed time, with the understanding that if we were late he would not be able to do as much work. Thus those who show up on time get the full treatment and perfect teeth, but those who show up late get lesser treatment, and thus not quite perfection. Outer Darkness would be those who simply don’t show up.”

    Let me attempt to make what we do a little clearer. To us Christians, the above statement you made is clearly Mormonism seen through the eyes of a Mormon. I can put on my Mormon glasses and totally agree with you that this is exactly what Mormonism teaches. Yes. I am saying that this is exactly what I believe Mormonism teaches and I have believed this is what Mormonism teaches for a long time. I have believed this for many more years than you and I have been chatting on this blog. Okay? In other words, I understand this LDS Doctrine completely. I know exactly what you are saying and what you mean. Okay? So what is going on with this particular example is you keep telling us we aren’t listening but in reality you aren’t telling us anything we don’t already know and believe about Mormonism. We already agree with you here that this is indeed what Mormonism teaches. Okay?

    Now where you misunderstand us is when we take this one step further than this. That step being: how Mormonism is viewed through Christian Doctrine(Christian eyes).

    When we Christians’ view Mormonism through Mormon Doctrine, we arrive at the same conclusion that you do.
    When we Christians view Mormonism through Christian Doctrine, we arrive at a completely different conclusion.

    This is Mormonism through Christian Doctrine…

    “In Mormonism, the Dentist tells people to fix their own teeth. However, since the patient is not a Dentist, he will never succeed at doing it and in the end, all his teeth will fall out.”

    Do you see what I am saying? So in order for you to understand what we mean, you have to keep this in mind. It might help you out a lot to ask more questions so that you can learn more about how we think and what we are attempting to convey to you.

  17. March 26, 2012 at 12:59 am

    Shem said: “This brings me back to the “After all you can do” thread when all the Non-LDS kept claiming that this verse declared that grace came after our work. I gave a direct quote from an apostle that stated that Grace came first, and our works were made possible by it (the drowning analogy) and every ignored this, and stuck to their point that grace was after works.”

    Shem, with this point. Nobody ignores what you say. Okay? Everyone listens. It is important to us to be good listeners. (Not that we are always good at it but we do try)
    At the same time, I think it’s important for you not to always assume the worst about us. We have lots of things going through our minds when we read your posts and when we respond to you. That doesn’t mean we are out to do you evil or ignore you. We are all here because we want to be friends with Mormons. Please keep that in mind always. One thing for sure, no true Christian will ever want to get LDS doctrine wrong intentionally and all of us learn something new along the way. Think of it like this, you get our beliefs wrong often enough also. We don’t hold that against you because we know you have much to learn about what we believe yet.

  18. 19 shematwater
    March 26, 2012 at 5:42 am

    ECHO

    My point is that by looking through your supposed Christian perspective you always give a false impression of what we believe. It is like taking a person who is near sighted and telling them that looking through glasses designed for a far sighted person will help them see better. It doesn’t work.

    Let us try it the other way around, and see what you think. This is what I see in the doctrine that I have heard most Christians profess.
    First, Christ has done everything so if as long as I admit this I am saved in heaven. Nothing else matters, so I am free to commit any sin I care to, as long as I freely admit that Christ has saved me I will still enter heaven.
    Second, God is a self-centered, egotistical, narcisist who created man because he was unsatisfied with the worship of the angels and wanted to change things up a bit. He saves us only because it brings him more glory, and so the love he has for us is rooted in the love he has for himself.

    Does this in any way reflect what you actually believe? I doubt it. I would also expect that most Christians would be highly offended if I went around telling people that this is what they believed.

    If you know what we believe stop giving false impressions through your so-called “Christian perspective” as all it serves to do is confuse the issue and twist our meaning. It is going back to the glasses; giving a warped view of the truth to satisfy your beliefs.
    You pretty reasoning is merely an attempt to justify your misrepresenting LDS doctrine.

    SGBTF

    Did I ever deny that there was rejoicing in Heaven when a sinner repents. God is always overjoyed when one of his children comes to him in humility seeking forgiveness, and is ready to forgive all such. This does not change the fact that it is the righteous who receive all that their father hath.
    Rejoicing does not translate into inheritance.

  19. 20 shematwater
    March 26, 2012 at 5:45 am

    ECHO

    One other thing.
    Doctrine and Covenants 64: 2-5
    “And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
    And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
    And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
    Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.”

    When I, or Josh, or Kate post on these threads, being moved by the Holy Ghost it is as good as the Lord himself declaring it unto you. Do not lightly dismiss what we say, claiming it is only opinion and not the doctrine of the church, as God has declared it to be his power unto salvation when it is directed by his spirit.

  20. 21 Kent
    March 26, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Shem said, “When I, or Josh, or Kate post on these threads, being moved by the Holy Ghost it is as good as the Lord himself declaring it unto you. Do not lightly dismiss what we say, claiming it is only opinion and not the doctrine of the church, as God has declared it to be his power unto salvation when it is directed by his spirit.”

    So what you, Josh, or Kate post here is scripture? As that is what the passages from D and C 64 that you quoted says. So how can we know when you are moved by the Holy Ghost and when it is just your opinion?

    From this point on I have to assume that everything you say, unless you state otherwise, that you are saying thus saith the Lord. I can’t assume that Josh or Kate also are claiming this though. But I guess that also would mean that everything else you have ever posted here was also the Lord saying it.

    Doctrine and Covenants 64: 2-5
    “And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
    And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
    And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
    Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.”

  21. March 26, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Shem said: “My point is that by looking through your supposed Christian perspective you always give a false impression of what we believe”

    I am here to give the truth about what Mormonism really teaches as seen through the eyes of Christian theology. That’s not going to change. I am not twisting your meaning, I am showing you how twisted your meaning is. I am not giving a warped view of what you believe, I am showing you that what you believe is warped.

    Shem said: “When I, or Josh, or Kate post on these threads, being moved by the Holy Ghost it is as good as the Lord himself declaring it unto you. Do not lightly dismiss what we say, claiming it is only opinion and not the doctrine of the church, as God has declared it to be his power unto salvation when it is directed by his spirit.”

    I have lost count of the number of times that Mormons have said to me: “his word’s are not official Mormon Doctrine” referring to quotes by LDS General Authorities past and present including past LDS Prophets. If you believe your words are as if the Lord himself is speaking to me, then Adam is your God, he is the God you worship and the God who is the Father of your Jesus in the Spirit world. Yet since you don’t believe that today, that means God has allowed one of your prophets to lead people astray. And the LDS says: “God will never allow the Prophet to lead you astray”. So now somebody is lying. Who is it? And whomever it is, God has allowed prophets to lead you astray.

  22. 23 JBR
    March 26, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Shem…. you really need to quailify your statement, because who knows, someday your words and thoughts will only be pertainant until you die and some other better informed living Mormon claims otherwise.

    Just like what happens to Spencer Kimball and all the others before him……. so I guess maybe some of us aren’t just waiting till you die before to dice your words from truth to opinion to falsehood.

  23. 24 Kent
    March 27, 2012 at 3:05 am

    Echo said, “I have lost count of the number of times that Mormons have said to me: “his word’s are not official Mormon Doctrine” referring to quotes by LDS General Authorities past and present including past LDS Prophets. If you believe your words are as if the Lord himself is speaking to me, then Adam is your God, he is the God you worship and the God who is the Father of your Jesus in the Spirit world. Yet since you don’t believe that today, that means God has allowed one of your prophets to lead people astray. And the LDS says: “God will never allow the Prophet to lead you astray”. So now somebody is lying. Who is it? And whomever it is, God has allowed prophets to lead you astray.”

    Not to mention that the decision to admit black people into the Mormon priesthood in 1978 changed Mormon doctrine from the Book of Mormon saying that it is better to be white than it is to be black and from some of the racist rheoric from phophet Brigham Young who said race mixers should be under the penalty of death and that “this will always be so” which is backed up by the B Of M saying in 2 Nephi 5 that “cursed cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.” So I guess the Lord didn’t mean it when He supposedly said this or that the Lord changed His mind?

    1 Nephi 13:15

    15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

    2 Nephi 5:20-23

    20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be bcut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
    21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
    22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
    23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.

    But I guess, if I had to make a choice, I would listen to Shem here on Mark Cares’ blog before I would listen to a bigot like Brigham Young who is supposed to be a prophet of God.

  24. 25 Kent
    March 27, 2012 at 3:16 am

    I assume that one or more of the Mormons may say I am taking B. Young’s comments out of context, another stock answer by Mormons.

    However Young was clearly saying that race mixers are under the penalty of death. I wonder what he would think if he somehow could be transported forward in time from his lifetime to today and he saw not only interrracial couples, but that they were now priests of the church?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  25. 26 shematwater
    March 27, 2012 at 3:34 am

    ECHO

    ” I am not twisting your meaning, I am showing you how twisted your meaning is. I am not giving a warped view of what you believe, I am showing you that what you believe is warped.”

    Keep trying to convince yourself. You may actually succeed.

    The simple fact is that you are twisting our doctrine and trying to justify it through flowery logic. It is the hieght of deception, and I don’t care how you attempt to disguise this fact. We believe what we believe, not what you perceive that we believe, and to say that your perception is our belief is a lie.

    TO EVERYONE

    I quoted Doctrine and Covenants 64 for one reason. To shut people up who try to dismiss the truth as being merely our opinion. It means nothing more or less than what we have stated several times in the past: When we declare our opinion we state it as such. Otherwise we are declaring true doctrine, and to say it is our opinion is merely an evasion. It is again an attempt to teach us what we believe, and to deny us the right to correct your deceptions.
    When we speak by his power it is scripture, and that power is in our words when we declare his true doctrine.

    Quite honestly the quality of discussion in these threads has dropped dramatically in recent days, and I am seriously considering taking Josh’s example and just asking readers to contact me separate from this blog, as the deception is so thick here it is difficult to see anything else. This rediculousness of the ‘Christian perspective’ and us giving only opinion are merely attempts by others to dismiss, marginalize, and ignore what we say.
    These las two points have really driven things too far, but I am more want to take the same tactics and apply them to your comments, just to show people the true hypocracy in them. You will note my comments on ‘Christians’ doctrine from an LDS perspective, but now I would like to declare to the readers that they are welcome to take all comments made by the non-LDS on this blog as merely opinion, and not reflective of true Christian doctrine, as none of them are leaders in that group.

    And please note that I am an Elder in the LDS church, a holder of the Melkizedek Priesthood, authorized by God to expound scripture and exort people to righteousness. I am also set apart as a missionary in my ward, and thus have additional authority to spread the gospel. Do not tell me that I do not have authority to declare the true doctrine of God, as that is what I have been called to do.

    To close I will declare this, establishing truth, not my opinion, and thus what I say at this time is the power of God to salvation and all those that reject it do so at the peril of their souls.
    Truth is truth, and it matters not in what age of the world it is revealed, or who it is that reveals it. What God reveals to one generation he reveals to another, with no changing or deviation. It matters not when I die, as all those who teach truth will continue to teach that which I have set forth here, as it is true, and God will declare such when he returns again.
    Speaking of the church of God, there is never but one, and it is never divided and fractured into thousands of groups and denominations, but is united in all matters of doctrine pertaining to salvation. In this day and age that church is the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and anyone who rejects this rejects the full blessings the the Lord has offered to his children. It is the same as the church organized by Christ while on the Earth, and was restored in these last days by Joseph Smith. There is not doctrine taught by Christ that was not taught by Joseph Smith, and the opposite is also true. From the time of Joseph Smith to this day there has been no change in doctrine, but all has been established and proven.
    This is the truth, and to all I declare that if they reject any part of it they reject the true and living God and will live to regret it in the eternities.

    This is the end of my commenting on this thread. To those who actually want to know the truth, and not the twisted perceptions of those here whose only thought is to destroy the truth established by God, you can reach me shematwater@yahoo.com.

  26. 27 shematwater
    March 27, 2012 at 3:35 am

    Sorry. For those seeking to contact me as I mentioned, please make the subject LDS questions so that I know what the message is and don’t delete it as junk mail.

  27. 28 Kent
    March 27, 2012 at 9:42 am

    I am sure Mormons will not like it that I dare to be critical of Brigham Young and even the Book of Mormon that I don’t understand it and that I am attacking something beautiful and someone so far above me that he is probably a god himself now. But what I don’t understand is how someone like Young, called a prophet, can say something that is vile, and in the instance of saying race mixers are under the penalty of death he is claiming to be speaking for the Lord because he said it is under the law of God and that it will always be so, that can suddenly change because the leaders of the Mormon Church got a revealtion in 1978 that blacks can have the priesthood. After all, Young was saying thus saith the Lord. Oh but the Journal of Discourses isn’t official doctrine but why isn’t it if their prophet was, saying, as I pointed out, thus saith the Lord?

    Also, as I pointed out, the Book of Mormon says about blacks that “the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them,” that He had caused a curse to come upon them and it does say that any whites who mix with them that their seed will be cursed but that doesn’t apply anymore? After all, The B Of M is supposed to be the word of God so this part isn’t anymore?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    2 Nephi 5:20-23

    “20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be bcut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
    21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
    22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
    23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.”

    The only conclusion I can come up with is that Brigham Young was not speaking for the Lord when he said some things that are not beautiful at all and the part in the B Of M that says blacks have a cursing of blackness of skin isn’t the word of God either. So if part of the B of M isn’t the word of God, then none of the B of M is the word of God as the true word of God doesn’t change no matter if the leaders of a church now say the part in question doesn’t apply anymore.

    Folks just stick with the Bible and what it teaches as it never changes and no so called modern prophets can supercede what it says with so called new revelations.

  28. 29 Echo
    March 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    The past LDS Prophet Brigham Young claimed that Adam was God and he claimed to be speaking for God when he said that.

    The more recent prophets don’t believe Adam is God and they claim to be speaking for God when they say that.

    Here is my conclusion from pure logic…

    The Mormon God has no clue who God is. In other words, the Mormon God has no clue who he himself is. The Mormon God keeps changing his mind about who he himself is. The Mormon God contradicts himself and does indeed lead people astray.

    A common phrase in Mormonism: “God will never allow his prophets to lead you astray”

    Obviously two contradictory teachings on the Adam-God doctrine means that the God of Mormonism will indeed allow prophets to lead people astray.

    The real truth…

    The Mormon God is the devil who sets himself up in God’s church claiming himself to be God. He deceives Mormons with half truths(deception) and lies and he abuses them with brainwashing and mind control, many Mormons lose their ability to think critically. Thus the devil leads Mormons right into outer darkness.

  29. 30 Kent
    March 27, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Echo, I have heard Mormons explain it away when asked about Brigham Young’s stance against race mixing, that they should be put to death on the spot, as showing that he was human and flawed, so therefore can be forgiven for his inperfections. But, they don’t seem to recognize the fact that he said it is the law of God and that it will always be so. I am not twisting what he said as if we was saying it is God’s law and that it will always be so, then he was speaking as a prophet of God, but now it isn’t binding?

    Again, below is what Brigham Young said,

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    Also, i have heard Mormons explain the section in the Book of Mormon about God causing black skin to come upon people for their iniquity that it caused a flint to come upon their hearts that it was talking about the hardness of their hearts not their skin color.

    However, it is clear it is clear from 2 Nephi 5 that because there was a flint, a hardness on their hearts, that it is saying they were given a skin of blackness as it also clearly says they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome before they got their skin of blackness and that they got it so they would be loathsome to His people and not be enticing to them.

    2 Nephi 5:20-23

    “20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
    21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
    22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
    23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.”

    Why do I keep posting this same information? Because I want Mormons to question this stuff and I hope they see it for what it is, falsehood. Others have done so and come out of Mormonism and my prayers and hopes that others will to continue to do so as well.

    Am I continuesly attacking attacking Mormons? No, I am telling the truth. That if the Book of Mormon is the word of God,and if a prophet such as Brigham Young said something is the law of God that would make it the word of God, it should always be the word of God and that new teachings should not contradict what it says As, obviously, their church doesn’t teach today that race mixers should be put to death. So the word of God isn’t the word of God anymore or at least that part of it isn’t anymore?

    I have come to the conclusion that I haven’t been indoctrinated into the Mormon Church and that is why, with the Holy Spirit’s help, I can see passages from 2 Nephi 5 and quotes from Brigham Young for what they are, falsehood, and that is why people aren’t told this stuff up front as they too would see it for what it is.

    Usually lately the Mormons don’t answer most of what I say as if what I am saying is absurd or disrespectful but what is absurd and direspectful was Brigham Young saying white people who mix with black people should be killed and that black people are cursed with black skin, which is in the B of M.

  30. 31 shematwater
    March 27, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    I know I said I would not be posting on this thread again, but I have to make a few comments.

    Just because Echo claims that Brigham Young made this claim does not mean he did. We know that Echo portrays the doctrines of the LDS, and the words of their leaders according to his perspective, and thus we know that he is not telling what they actually mean, but what he thinks they mean, and what he wants us to think they mean.

    Let me give a few nice quotes here to help clear up the issue.

    SUBJECT : Adam-God Theory
    NOTE : Quote “We denounce that theory …”
    PUBLICATION : Kimball, Spencer W. “Our Own Liahona.” Ensign (Nov. 1976): 77-79. page 77, upper righthand
    corner of page.
    PUBLICATION : Also Church News (9 October 1976): 11.

    NOTE : “If the enemies of the Church who quote this wished to be honest, they could not help seeing that President Brigham Young definitely declares that Adam is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, which
    indicates definitely that Adam is not Elohim, or the God whom we worship, who is the Father of Jesus Christ. .”
    PUBLICATION : Smith, Joseph Fielding. “The Adam-God Theory.” Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 96-106
    PUBLICATION : Widtsoe, John A. “What Are the Facts Concerning the so-called Adam-God Theory?”
    Evidences and Reconciliations, Vol. 1, pp. 287-290. lrs/mcj
    PUBLICATION : Young, Brigham. “Sermon of Brigham Young on Adam as God.” Millennial Star, Vol. 15, pp.
    769-770. kt

    NOTE : “The reported statements [of this theory] conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time. So how do Latterday Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don’t; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. … It is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don’t know what “it” is. … Even experts of his thought are left to wonder whether he was misquoted, whether he meant to say one thing and actually said another, whether he was somehow joking with or testing the Saints, or whether some vital element that would make sense out of the reports has been omitted. … Whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church
    for a sustaining vote. It was not then and is not now a doctrine of the Church. … It contradicts the LDS scriptures; it contradicts the teachings of Joseph Smith; it contradicts other statements by Brigham Young made
    during the same period of time; it contradicts the teachings of all the prophets since Brigham Young; and it
    contradicts the sacred ordinances of the LDS temples, with which Brigham Young was intimately familiar. ad
    PUBLICATION : Robinson, Stephen. Are Mormons Christians? pp. 19-20

    NOTE : “Elder Charles C. Rich, of the Council of the Twelve, was not present on the day when President
    Young gave an address that was wrongly reported as saying Adam was our Father in heaven. (See JD 1:51)…
    In a copy of the Journal of Discourses Elder Ben E. Rich, son of Elder Charles C. Rich, referred to the
    misquotation as it appears in the Journal of Discourses, and in his own hand corrected the statement to read as follows: ‘Jesus our elder Brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character who talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.’ In this same statement Ben E. Rich wrote ‘As corrected above is what Prest. Young said, as testified to me by my father, C. C. Rich.’ JAS
    PUBLICATION : Petersen, Mark E. Adam – Who is He? (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1979): 16-24.

    NOTE : “Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For
    heaven’s sake, let these things alone. . . .God has revealed Himself, and when the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be one God or many gods they will be revealed to the children of men, . . . If we want to know any more, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this. Humble yourselves before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a knowledge of the common things of the kingdom of God. . . .Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday, today, and forever. That should be sufficient for us to know.” SS
    PUBLICATION : Wilford Woodruff, Millennial Star 57 (6 June 1895): 355-56.
    PUBLICATION : Genesis Chapter 3. SS
    PUBLICATION : McConkie, Bruce R. “Adam-God Theory,” Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft,
    1966): 18-19. SS
    PUBLICATION : See also BIBS file in Word Perfect JHRShare Drive.

    It matters not what obscure references Echo wants to drag out and claim his superiority in understanding them. It matters not that anyone truly understands them. It is a theory, not a doctrine, and with the available records it is truly impossible for anyone to know exactly what Brigham Young meant by half of these statements. As such, leave the subject alone.

  31. March 27, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Shem

    “We don’t; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. ”

    Pretty BIG and SUSTAINED ANOMALLY! And you just “set it aside.”

    when your church members must without question believe that their prophets talk to God and would never lead then astray. So Brigham Young led these people astray for how long?

    And that doesn’t give you any cause for concern?

    Show me where Brigham Young has any less proof for his belief than Joseph Smith had for his. Disappearing evidence like gold tablets and nonexisitant langauges are not evidence of anything more than a fairy tale.

    Show me evidence for the revision Joseph SMith claimed in the Bible that Jesus and Satan are brothers in Genesis 3. That is NO WHERE in the orginal Hebrew and is no less of a fairy tale than what Brigham Young dreamed up. Jospeh SMith claimed he talked to God. Brigham Young made the same claim.

  32. 33 shematwater
    March 27, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    DAVID

    “Pretty BIG and SUSTAINED ANOMALLY! And you just “set it aside.”

    It was never sustained, which is one of the points made in the same quote that you are referencing. The theory was not submitted to anyone for a sustaining vote, and was actually opposed by some in the Quorum of the Twelve. This is enough evidence for me to dismiss the idea as a theory and opinion, as no one would have been allowed to remain an apostle and still openly oppose actual doctrine.

    “So Brigham Young led these people astray for how long?”

    He never did, and since you, nor anyone else, can actually prove what he taught on this subject you cannot prove that he did. That is the point. All your attempts to prove anything in regards to this subject are pointless, as it simply cannot be done.

  33. March 27, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Shem

    “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me — namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth” Brigham Young.
    (Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.)

    Check it out.

  34. 35 Echo
    March 27, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    As we can see from Shem’s post, The LDS is attempting to wiggle it’s way out of a corner that one of their own prophets painted them into. I think Shem’s quotes really support our position entirely if anyone looks at them objectively and critically with some discernment.

    Just like the quote Dave gave that says: “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me — namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth” Brigham Young.
    (Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.)

    Note: Brigham Young stated it was “doctrine”
    Note: Brigham Young stated that his “doctrine” was “revealed to him by God”

    So Shem goes against one of his prophets by claiming it was a “theory”!

    Note that one of Shem’s official LDS quotes in post #31 says this: “Whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church for a sustaining vote.”

    See how the LDS Church reaches for whatever possible excuse they can to get out of this Corner that Brigham has gotten them into. Since when does God himself need the sustaining vote of men? God himself revealed it to Brigham! So now what, does God have to okay his words with men? This is absurd!

    Why doesn’t the LDS Church just go ahead and admit that Brigham was a false prophet? Because if they did that, then…

    The LDS claim of “God will never allow a prophet to lead you astray” would be untrue and therefore a lie. Not only then did Brigham lead people astray, but all the prophets who have repeated the phrase “God will never allow a prophet to lead you astray” would also be an untrue statement coming from their own mouths thus proving “all” LDS prophets as false prophets.

    So now they try to blow over all of this and pass it off with this…

    From Shem’s post “Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven’s sake, let these things alone. . . .God has revealed Himself, and when the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be one God or many gods they will be revealed to the children of men, . . . If we want to know any more, wait till we get where God is in person.” (see Shem’s post # 31 for context and publication)

    In other words, wait until after this life for the answer.
    But according to Christian doctrine(not Mormon Doctrine), when a person dies believing in false prophets they go to outer darkness for eternity. So I warn everyone: don’t wait until you die to get to the bottom of this!!

    Shem said: “and with the available records it is truly impossible for anyone to know exactly what Brigham Young meant by half of these statements. As such, leave the subject alone.” and: “So how do Latterday Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don’t; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. … It is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don’t know what “it” is.” (see Shem’s quotes for context)

    Isn’t it IRONIC that a Church that claims to have Prophets who recieve direct Revelation from God have no idea what Brigham meant. Why hasn’t God given the LDS Prophet a direct Revelation about what Brigham meant. My guess…The LDS doesn’t have Prophets that recieve direct Revelation from God. They just claim they do whenever they want to introduce new doctrine that they have made up.

  35. 36 Echo
    March 27, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    Kent,

    Thanks for sharing the information about Blacks. Folks need to be informed about what they are getting into and what they have gotten themselves into.

  36. March 28, 2012 at 1:16 am

    Shem,

    SO what is the fate of those poor lost individuals that, out of fear of questioning a prophet, believed Brigham Young’s little “anomally” of a prophecy that he as one of those “living prophets of yours” thought was from God? WHAT, according to LDS teaching, is the fate of those who believed him and died during that time and fate of those who dared not to believe him. Were the faithful Mormons punished for believing an anomally because a prophet said so or are those Mormons who dared not to believe him the ones who are punished for belief in a false doctrine/anomally? AND Shem, to Brigham Young it was doctrine and that means for those poor lost souls it was doctrine – so it will do you no good to evade this by dismissing it as merely a theory. It was no theory to him. ANd to his followers what he says counts not what you say. So where are they now?

  37. March 28, 2012 at 1:57 am

    Shem Part 2

    From your post 67 on the Great Apostasy “We believe the word of God is all those things that he has given by insoiration to men. It does not matter if they are in the Bible, as we do not limit God to who had can communicate with or where and how he can preserve his word. We accept that all the inpired works referenced in the Bible, that are not currently had, are the word of God, and are thus included in the statement that he quotes. We also believe that the written record of his word is not his word, but is just a record of it. His word is what he personally delivered to those he inspired.”

    From your post on the grerat Apostasy 49
    “I believe everything that Christ ever said.”

    From your post 26

    “Truth is truth, and it matters not in what age of the world it is revealed, or who it is that reveals it. What God reveals to one generation he reveals to another, with no changing or deviation.”

    And last but not least, You on Brigham Young’s self described doctrine he claims to have received from God that Adam is God:

    “We don’t; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly.”

  38. 39 Kent
    March 28, 2012 at 3:33 am

    Shem said, ““Truth is truth, and it matters not in what age of the world it is revealed, or who it is that reveals it. What God reveals to one generation he reveals to another, with no changing or deviation.”

    Does that mean that white people who mix with black people should be executed on the spot as you said, “Truth is truth, and it matters not in what age of the world it is revealed, or who it is that reveals it. What God reveals to one generation he reveals to another, with no changing or deviation”? So if there is no changing or deviation of what a prophet of God has said no matter when he said it, If that is the case, then why doesn’t the LDS Church now teach that race mixers should be killed on the spot?

    In this case Brigham Young said it was God’s law and that it would always be so.

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    Did the LDS Church say in 1978 when blacks were allowed into the priesthood that Young’s comments about race mixing were to be disregarded or did the church say that it didn’t apply any any other time?

    If so, then there really is changing or deviation to what the prophet Brigham Young revealed despite the fact he said it was God’s law and that it would always be so.

    Mormons here may respond that some Christians have done evil in the name of God in the past and yes this true but I believe that those that did those things, such as the Spanish Inquisition, were not really true followers of Christ and that Christ would turn away as false prophets but that doesn’t divert from and change the fact that Brigham Young taught something ugly about black people. Below is the fate of anyone who has done evil in the name of the Lord.

    Matthew 7:15-23

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

  39. 40 shematwater
    March 28, 2012 at 3:53 am

    People should leave the teaching of doctrine to those who know it, rather than attempting to explain what they obviously don’t understand.

    Now, I am not going to give an explanation of every quote that people choose to dig up and present, generally without context or understanding of the people they are quoting. What we generally get in such a situation is people attempting to put what they want to be true over what is really true. I have to wonder if they have actually read the discourses of Brigham Young, or if they are just cutting and pasting from lists that others have made to feed into the need degrade the LDS people.

    I will reiterate my invitation to all who honestly want to know concerning these things to contact me at shematwater@yahoo.com, giving the subject of either LDS doctrine or LDS questions. If you have no desire to actually learn the truth, but would rather latch unto any whim or thought that allows you to degrade that which you disagree with, please do not contact me in this way.

    Thank you

    (PS DAVID, how about a link to where we can find the source of this quote.)

  40. 41 Kent
    March 28, 2012 at 5:09 am

    Shem, there is no degrading what Brigham Young said about race mixers needing to be killed on the spot, that it is God’s law, and that this will always be so and I understand exactly what he was saying as I understand english.

    You can dodge the issue all you want but that is what he said. I am not going to say anything further about this subject at this time t as I have said all that needs to said in several posts now so I will let Mr. Young’s words speak for themselves.

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  41. 42 Kent
    March 28, 2012 at 5:14 am

    Any Mormons out there who may be devastated one of your revered leaders could say such wrong things, don’t lose heart and realize that there is hope in the precious blood of Jesus who saved us not just to live in the afterlife with a chance sometime in the future to have eternal life in the mansions where God is, if you are worthy enough, but that you can know now, this moment, that you have eternal life, saved=eternal life.

    Repent and admit to yourselves and God that you are a sinner who can never, ever be worthy enough to be in the mansions where God is in even 10,000 lifetimes and believe, trust in what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again from the dead on the third day, and thank God that our savior Jesus Christ alone is worthy enough for you.

    Mormons, please read the following passages and take them to heart. Remember, saved is eternal life.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.”

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

  42. 43 Kent
    March 28, 2012 at 11:18 am

    So why does saved mean eternal life and not just living in the afterlife with a chance to have eternal life?

    Well the jailer in Acts 16 asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul and Silas answered him, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and in John 3 below it says, “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” I have repeated some Bible passages that I pray and hope people take to heart that I posted, this time in the King James version (I often use the NKJV), so that they see what they must believe to be saved (eternal life). Again, my prayers and hopes are they take them to heart.

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  43. March 28, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Shem

    “People should leave the teaching of doctrine to those who know it, rather than attempting to explain what they obviously don’t understand.”

    You don’t understand it. You just set it aside and call it an anomally. That might work for you in the short term but did it cost the people he misled dearly. You claim he never led anyone astray. Your own LDS presidents denouncing of that claim proves otherwise. Brigham Young has led people astray. And if he has, so have the others.

    This is not about teaching a false doctrine its about exposing it to those that have been deceived by it. And bringing to them to the true gospel of Jesus. The one as referenced in 1 Peter 1:23-25.

    How about answering the questions I posed on post 37. Those people are somewhere. Explain to me where they are when LDS members believe an “anomally” the prophet says is the Word of God.

    You can hide from this if you want, but you are only doing it to your deteriment. You don’t want to believe it because you see it on this website – fine. But you owe it to those in the LDS church who look to you for guidance to check this out. I frankly find it hard to believe you don’t already know full well the context of these sermons, how long he taught it, how long it was held onto by others, that there was a hymn written about it and many other specifics about this. Brigham Young’s lie, or delussion, or relaince of a deceptive spirit (See 1 John 4:1) is proof that the LDS church prophets do not get revelations from God and that they do lead people astray. How many prophets in the BIble had to recant or had to have their prophecies denounced by later prophets?

    Lets consider another aspect of this teaching since He believed it to be true. What force out there would like to have a doctrine taught as if it were the word of God that Satan successfully tempted God or a god? Can you seriously have any doubt who would be behind that? How can you have any confidence who is providing “revelations” (contradicting, even racist, revelations) to “prophets” of the LDS church?

  44. 45 joshtried
    March 28, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Since people seem to be running away with the LDS teaching Racism thing.. First of all, God was prejudice… When the jews were coming from Egypt, he said “WIPE EVERYONE OUT, LEAVE NO ONE.” Why? So the wouldnt mix and mingle, and then be turned to the false gods Solomon turned to.. Second, Moses “suffered” them to have the law of divorce. Does this make him a false prophet since he should have know that “from the beginning it was not so”? No it does not. The law of divorce was given to the people because of “the hardness of their hearts”. At this time in American History (and Africa too since they were the ones selling blacks to Americans), and probably many other places in the world, black people were looked at in a totally different light. They were not understood. There were some that worshiped different “gods”. People had “hard hearts” towards blacks. Does this mean that in the eternal scheme of things this is correct? No, it does not. But divorce is just as wrong, and minus Catholics and LDS, everyone is just flat out okay with this practice. What makes divorce okay and “mixed breeding” so wrong? Neither are correct (that being that divorce is wrong and mixed breeding is acceptable, under the circumstance that it does not lead you to a false “god”).

    Next, and i saw it quoted somewhere in a really long quote on this page, but it said something to the effect of “black people are damned UNLESS THE REPENT.” Can you or I ascertain when this happened? No, we cannot. We can accept this prinicple towards EVERY person in this world right now. You are damned unless you repent and accept Christ. Perhaps the “black” people were not willing to do this then, especially considering the hell we put them through with the whole slavery thing…

    Third, maybe i just missed it, but i have been really good about reading these posts. Has any “Christian” taken a stab at who exactly Satan is? Anyone wish to?

  45. 46 JBR
    March 29, 2012 at 5:20 am

    I have no problem with Jesus’ words being true today as like the day he spoke them.
    I know that Jesus revealed that everything was not his own, but from the Father… meaning that there is no “anomaly”.

    So again the circular logic over take precedent over the truth from Jesus revealed in the Bible….

    The LDS church has to be correct because the BoM is, and the Bom is correct because the LDS prophets are, and the prophets are because they’re found in the LDS Church.
    _______________________________________________________________________________

    I will predict that Shems claim of what he is saying is as if God himself is… will too one day be found as an “anomoly”

  46. 47 JBR
    March 29, 2012 at 5:37 am

    Shem, about “anomalies” ……….. if faithful Mormons believed it at the time what happens:

    when a prophet speaks one, does that impede his progression to godhood?
    when a prophet speaks one, does previous church prophets now budding embryo gods correct him or later ones that came after?
    When a prophet speaks one, how many can believe it before it’s considered “leading astray”

    speaking of “anomalies”….

    Is Jesus one for progressing without being married?

  47. 48 Kent
    March 29, 2012 at 10:56 am

    I will have to get back to Joshtried’s comments about racism as his response is something I have to go over before commenting however, I am glad at least he is talking about it as, like he said, “people seem to be running away with the LDS teaching Racism thing.”

    But beyond the racism element, it seems there is real bias in the Mormon church against single people and childless people as isn’t it true that we, I am both of these, cannot ever enter into their highest level of exaltation as gods if we are not sealed in a temple marriage and if we don’t ever have any children?

    Makes sense if it has anything to do with what we do, being married in the temple and having children, as opposed to what Jesus did by dying in our place, sinners who can never save ourselves, and rising again on the third day.

    Below is the gospel and the Bible doesn’t say it is just the first principles of the gospel but it is the gospel itself, it doesn’t say anything about following a bunch of laws and oridanances, or being married and sealed in a temple, or about having children. We have something better, we are sealed by the blood of Jesus Himself.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  48. 49 choosethechrist
    March 29, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Kent it is an awesome thing that you are sealed by the blood of Christ and that it is not dependent upon your marital status, your race, your gender, your parental status, your church membership, or anything else.

    The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard was Jesus’ ultimate answer. Through this parable, we discover that not all things are quantitative in the Kingdom of God, in the sense that we think them to be equal. All people can come to Jesus with a repentant heart and receive the same reward of dwelling with God in heaven for all eternity.

    The parable of the Workers (Matthew 20) is a parable of the Kingdom of Heaven. Nothing illustrates this better than the repentant thief dying beside Jesus on the cross. “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Whether we have known Jesus all our lives or whether we have come to know Him at the end of this life, we can always turn to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and repent of our sins; we can call upon His name at any time and be rescued from our sins. It is never too late; the rewards of repentance will never be diminish based on the length of our service to His throne, the color of our skin, our marital status, our parental status, or anything else that we do.

    Praise God!

  49. 50 joshtried
    March 29, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Kent, i have known alot of people in my 8yrs as a convert that have never been married. I know others that were only able to adopt kids, and others still that could not even adopt. There is definitely a push in LDS life to get married and pop out children, but there is recognition that this is not what God has called everyone to do. As a side example, LDS teaches right now every able bodied person should go on a mission. I converted at 18, & knew this and did not go on a mission. I am not ostrasized, i am not forbidden from anything. But, i personally recognize that i may be foregoing a blessing from God. Now, on a very personal note, i believe i was called to go to the army by God, & therefore not called to the traditional mission. As i was called to go to the army, i forego nothing, i have done as God asked, and i will recieve the reward for doing as the lord asked. The same applies to single people. If you have prayed about marriage and God tells you that you are not to marry, then you will be rewarded according to your faith in God. You should not make any descision on your own though, for instance marriage or staying single. For both you SHOULD pray AND accept the answer given to you in prayer.
    We as LDS are only supposed to teach. Bishops have the fun job of occassionally having to judge earthly actions as they are understood. No one else should be judging anyone or their actions. Unfortunately, there are many in any church that do judge others.

  50. 51 shematwater
    March 29, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    KENT

    “it seems there is real bias in the Mormon church against single people and childless people as isn’t it true that we cannot ever enter into their highest level of exaltation as gods if we are not sealed in a temple marriage and if we don’t ever have any children?”

    This is why you will never understand our doctrine. There will be many people who are never married in this life, or who never have children, that will be exalted as gods in heaven. Brigham young himself taught this. It is not in the actual marriage that one attains this level of glory, but in the accepting of the covenant; which is to say having faith that this is the will of god and seeking to fulfill that will. There are many who die at a young age, and even those who grow to be old and never marry, or never have children, but who nevertheless believe in this truth, seek for these blessings, and will thus be exalted in heaven.

    As to the race issue, I make no comment on it because it would take several pages to fully explain what Brigham Young meant. He made several comments, both directly about race, and indirectly through teaching the nature of the laws of God. All this must be understood before one can even begin to comprehend what his meaning was in regards to the black race.
    People like to throw quotes around, searching out those that they believe have the most shock value, and then claim the right and ability to declare the intended meaning of those speaking. Let me ask you this: Have you read everything that Brigham Young taught? Have you made a thorough study of his life and his personal beliefs? Until you have you cannot claim to truly know what he meant by what he said.
    Now, I have not done such thorough reading and studying as I would like to have done, and so I generally refrain from commenting on these quotes; but I do think I have a better understanding of their meaning than you do.

    And to all those who are interested, the lifting of the ban of the black race from the priesthood in 1978 was not a change in doctrine, for it had been promised by God that the time would come when the ban would be lifted. This is evident in the proclamation that lifted the ban, as well as in the records of the early leaders. You may not like the idea, but the truth is that none of the leaders of the church (talking of presidents and apostles) truly liked the idea of the ban, and the evidence is clear that they looked forward to a time when it would no longer be required.

  51. 52 Kent
    March 29, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    choosethechrist said,

    “Kent it is an awesome thing that you are sealed by the blood of Christ and that it is not dependent upon your marital status, your race, your gender, your parental status, your church membership, or anything else.

    The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard was Jesus’ ultimate answer. Through this parable, we discover that not all things are quantitative in the Kingdom of God, in the sense that we think them to be equal. All people can come to Jesus with a repentant heart and receive the same reward of dwelling with God in heaven for all eternity.

    The parable of the Workers (Matthew 20) is a parable of the Kingdom of Heaven. Nothing illustrates this better than the repentant thief dying beside Jesus on the cross. “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Whether we have known Jesus all our lives or whether we have come to know Him at the end of this life, we can always turn to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and repent of our sins; we can call upon His name at any time and be rescued from our sins. It is never too late; the rewards of repentance will never be diminish based on the length of our service to His throne, the color of our skin, our marital status, our parental status, or anything else that we do.”

    Praise God!

    Make it clear that when I say I believe I am sealed by the blood of Jesus and I am saved, I mean that I have eternal life and that I will be in the mansions where God is forever but I don’t mean that I will ever be exalted as a god. Frankly, I don’t even want to be a god as being with the Lord is good enough so saved=eternal life minus godhood.

    I also believe that part of true repentance is people letting go of the idea that they can be gods themselves.

    I don’t have to be a second class citizen in heaven if I never marry or if I never have any children.

    Again, what must we do to be saved?

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    Below are the works of God, good works follow from believing in whom the Father has sent, Jesus Christ.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

  52. 53 shematwater
    March 29, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    KENT

    “I don’t have to be a second class citizen in heaven if I never marry or if I never have any children.”

    Did you even read what Josh and I posted here?

  53. March 29, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    They read…but have horrible fear that what we say is true and will make them question whether or not they are doing the wrong thing here. They don’t want to face that underlying fear so they block out the truth.

  54. March 29, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Shem

    “There will be many people who are never married in this life, or who never have children, that will be exalted as gods in heaven. Brigham young himself taught this.”

    This contradicts your doctrine also. How do you know this is not another “anomally”?

  55. 56 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 12:32 am

    DAVID

    “This contradicts your doctrine also.”

    This doesn’t contradict any doctrine of the LDS church, so your statement is wrong, once again proving that you really don’t know what you are talking about.

  56. 57 Kent
    March 30, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Shem said, DAVID

    “This contradicts your doctrine also.”

    This doesn’t contradict any doctrine of the LDS church, so your statement is wrong, once again proving that you really don’t know what you are talking about.”

    Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-4

    1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

    2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

    3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

    4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase

    So someone else teaches later that some people who never marry will be exalted as gods, which contradicts what D and C 131 says about having to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage?

    Isn’t the D anc C supposed to be scripture, hence the word of God, and isn’t the word of God not supposed to change?

  57. 58 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    KENT

    You do not understand what it means to enter into the Order of the Priesthood. That is your mistake. The actual ceremony of marriage and sealing is not when you enter into this order. You enter into the order when you accept the truth of the doctrine, and submit yourself to the will of God and the authority of his appointed ministers.
    The actual marriage does not have to be in this life, and many will be brought into their exaltation and will marry then, and not before. So, yes, a person who lives righteously in this life, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but is never married, can still be exalted, and can claim the blessings of this Order of the Priesthood.
    Now, a person who knows the truth but purposely delays marriage has not entered into the Order of the Priesthood, and so they will not be able to attain this glory.

    This has always been the doctrine of the church. Accept the truth as it is reveal and do all you can to comply with it and you will be exalted, whether you had the chance to perform the ordinances and ceremonies in this life or not.
    After all, consider the millions who die before they are of an age to be married, or even those who are of the age but are unable to find someone to marry. A man who is killed while serving his mission needs not fear that he lost his exaltation for not being married, for he did all he could to comply with the laws of God. A woman who dies in her late twenties needs not fear loosing her exaltation if no man had even offered her marriage. These people will find the mercies of God resting on them and bringing them to their exaltation, and they will receive all the blessings of that glory.

  58. 59 Kent
    March 30, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Shem, your temple, priesthood, etc. is just extra stuff added on to the truth of the Bible anyway that isn’t needed.

    The gospel that we have been given is not just the first principles of the gospel but is the gospel itself so we either believe the gospel for eternal life or we rely on works, laws and ordianances, for eternal life, which is impossible to do 100 percent even in 10,000 lifetimes as perfection is the standard you must meet if you choose that path.

    I hope and pray that people truly repent and let go of the thought of ever becoming a god.

    Folks, question what your Mormon Church teaches and take the true gospel to heart where saved= eternal life minus becoming a god and you will live in the mansions where God is forever.

    Directly below is the gospel I have been given that I pass on to other people. It doesn’t say it is the frist principles of the gospel but it says it is the gospel.

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

    The following passages are the works that you are to do and what you need to do to have eternal life (be saved) that you believe in Him (Jesus) in whom He (Heavenly Father) sent.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    Directly below is what you need to do to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (have eternal life).

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    Directly below is how to believe so that you can be saved and have eternal life, that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (have eternal life), that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Directly below shows that being saved is eternal life. Saved=eternal life=everlasting life

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

  59. 60 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    KENT

    I really don’t care if you think it is added or needed or anything else.

    It is just nice to see that you have no way of actually supporting your claim of contradictions and so you have to slip into the old argument that since we are a false religion it really doesn’t matter.

  60. March 30, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Shem

    You claimed

    “There will be many people who are never married in this life, or who never have children, that will be exalted as gods in heaven. Brigham young himself taught this.”

    When I told you this contradicted your doctrine, you said :

    “This doesn’t contradict any doctrine of the LDS church, so your statement is wrong, once again proving that you really don’t know what you are talking about.”

    To Kent you said:

    “The actual marriage does not have to be in this life, and many will be brought into their exaltation and will marry then, and not before.”

    You are mistaken. Your doctrine:

    “Our exaltation depends on marriage . . .Heavenly Father HAS GIVEN US THE LAW OF ETERNAL MARRIAGE SO THAT WE CAN BECOME LIKE HIM” Gospel Principles pp. 241-242.

    “Celestial or eternal marriage IS THE GATE TO EXALTATION. To fill the full measure of his creation AND OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE a man MUST enter into this order of matrimony and keep all the convenants and obligations that go with it.” The Life and Teachings of Jesus Course Manual, p. 130).

    And there are no exceptions.

    “no man can be saved and exalted in the Kingdom of God without the woman, and no woman and no woman can reach the perfection and exaltation of the Kingdom of God alone. (same manual at 291).

    “No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into this covenant and this means the everlasting covenant of marriage” Spencer Kimball, quoted in Doctrines and Convenants Student manual p. 326.

    So what is this? Is this doctrine or another anomally repeated over and over again?

    Please don’t dodge/ ignore this one. I’m looking forward to your answer.

  61. 62 Kent
    March 30, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Shem, I presented the gospel and it is up to others to accept it or reject it and, yes, the extra stuff tacked on by the Mormon Church, the temple, ordinances, etc. are not needed for our salvation into eternal life because saved is eternal life in the mansions where God is. But, no, we don’t get to be gods but isn’t being forever with God Almighty good enough?

    People, you can know now, this very moment as today is the day of salvation not some time in the distant future if you are worthy enough. Relax, Jesus is worthy enough for you!

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is that He died for the sins of the world to save us, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, and He rose again on the third day. This is the gospel that Paul and others were given who then passed it on to other people, who passed it on to me and others down the line, and it is the gospel that we in turn pass on to others. It didn’t need to be restored as it was never lost in the first place.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

    By the way, I usually use the New King James Version as it is an easier read but people can look up the verses I am quoting in the KJV if they feel they need to.

  62. 63 Kent
    March 30, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    This is my last post for now on anything as I have done what I set out to do and that is get back to presenting the gospel.

    I believe that there are some Mormons who are looking in and not participating in the conversations who are questioning what their church teaches. To them I say, continue to do so and while it may be a difficult journey others have done just that and come out of the LDS Church.

    I know Shem and some of the others may not like me saying this but, after all, isn’t that what Pastor Cares’ ministry and this blog are all about anyway?

  63. 64 shematwater
    March 31, 2012 at 5:29 am

    KENT

    “I know Shem and some of the others may not like me saying this”

    I really don’t care that you say this, as I know there are others out there who are truly seeking the truth, and Me and the other LDS here are a beacon of light in an otherwise spiritually dark blog, and we are seeking to make their journey to God and his true light as easy as possible.

    DAVID

    “So what is this? Is this doctrine or another anomally repeated over and over again?”

    You have quotes. I have understanding. There is a big difference.

    “And there are no exceptions.”

    People talk the same way about baptism, and yet it is also taught that the baptism of children under the age of eight is a sacrilige against Christ, thus proving that there is indeed and exception. Then there is Baptism for the dead, allowing people to take advantage of that ordinance after this life.

    Let us look at one of your quotes, and maybe we can see some understanding for once.
    “Our exaltation depends on marriage . . .Heavenly Father HAS GIVEN US THE LAW OF ETERNAL MARRIAGE SO THAT WE CAN BECOME LIKE HIM” Gospel Principles chapter 38. (Note, you give the wrong page numbers. Chapter 38 is pages 218-223.)

    Now, this statement if very true, but notice that it says that our exaltation depends on marriage, and does not designate that it is our marriage. A person can be sealed to their parents, and through their parents marriage gain exaltation, at which point they can partake of the blessings for themselves.

    You will also note that at the end of the section from which this quote is take the following note is attached for teachers.
    “All members, whether married or single, need to understand the doctrine of eternal marriage. However, you should be sensitive to the feelings of adults who are not married. As needed, help class members or family members know that ALL HEAVENLY FATHER’S CHILDREN WHO ARE FAITHFUL TO THEIR COVENANT IN THIS LIFE WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RECEIVE ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE GOSPEL IN THE ETERNITIES, INCLUDING THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN ETERNAL FAMILY.”

    This states almost directly what I have already stated, and thus we see that nothing I have stated is contrary to LDS doctrine.
    As I have said before, you are ignorant concerning LDS doctrine; and having no understanding your attempts to show contradictions will always fail.

  64. March 31, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Shem

    “All members, whether married or single, need to understand the doctrine of eternal marriage. However, you should be sensitive to the feelings of adults who are not married. As needed, help class members or family members know that ALL HEAVENLY FATHER’S CHILDREN WHO ARE FAITHFUL TO THEIR COVENANT IN THIS LIFE WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RECEIVE ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE GOSPEL IN THE ETERNITIES, INCLUDING THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN ETERNAL FAMILY.”

    Whatever you are quoting, (you didn’t cite it), really doesn’t matter. All it does is point to the fact that the LDS has contradictory doctrine and of all things on a fundamental LDS doctrine of “exaltation”.

    “You have quotes. I have understanding. There is a big difference.

    I think the sources I quoted are more authoritative than you and they is not ambigious as to its meaning. The fact is Shem is that you (and this is not your fault) are basically having to play ping pong with LDS doctrine to defend it.

    “yet it is also taught that the baptism of children under the age of eight is a sacrilige against Christ, thus proving that there is indeed and exception.”

    Where do you get this from?

  65. 66 shematwater
    April 1, 2012 at 5:00 am

    DAVID

    “you didn’t cite it”

    Yes I did. I stated directly that it was a note at the end of the section from which the quote you gave was taken. Look it up.

    “All it does is point to the fact that the LDS has contradictory doctrine”

    No. All it does is point to the fact that you are truly ignorant concerning the topic of LDS doctrine and you need to stop trying to claim understanding until you actually have it.
    Do you even read any of these quotes you like to spout off in their context, understanding who the intended audience is, what that audience already knows concerning the topic, and the style of rhetoric used by the speaker? These things are all needed to if you are ever going to understand anything.

    “I think the sources I quoted are more authoritative than you and they is not ambigious as to its meaning.”

    I agree they are more authoritative than me, and that they are not ambiguous. However, they are not directed to the ignorant people of the world, but to the saints, meaning that they are declared with an assumption of basic understanding in the audience. You obviously lack that foundation, and so you lack the ability to actually comprehend what you are reading.

    Simply put, most members of the church are able to get married, have children, and fullfill all these commandments. For them there is no excuse. These comments are directed to those who would delay such ordinances to achieve other goals. Those who say “After I graduate” or “After I have a stable job.” This is the target audience that these comments are directed to. They are given to all members with this understanding, and with the understanding that some people, do to personal situation do not have the opportunities for this, and that God will not hold such accountable.

    “Where do you get this from?”

    The more you try to comment on LDS doctrine the more I am convinced that you have never actually read anything.
    Moroni 8: 8-11
    “Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
    And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
    Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
    And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.”

    To establish the age of baptism, read D&C 64: 27
    “And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.”

    As I said, learn our doctrine before you try to make comments regarding it.

  66. April 2, 2012 at 12:49 am

    Shem

    ” They are given to all members with this understanding, and with the understanding that some people, do to personal situation do not have the opportunities for this, and that God will not hold such accountable.”

    So scripture that expressly provides for nop exceptions actually has exceptions.

    “no man can be saved and exalted in the Kingdom of God without the woman, and no woman and no woman can reach the perfection and exaltation of the Kingdom of God alone. (same manual at 291).

    “No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into this covenant and this means the everlasting covenant of marriage” Spencer Kimball, quoted in Doctrines and Convenants Student manual” p. 326.

    Shem – words mean things.

    I asked:

    “Where do you get this from?”

    You answered :

    “The more you try to comment on LDS doctrine the more I am convinced that you have never actually read anything.”
    Moroni 8: 8-11

    Jesus said to stay away from false prophets and through Paul said “angels from Heaven” presenting different gospels. I find it odd that you demand all this proof of the accuracy of the Bible yet blindly follow self-proclaimed prophets without demanding a shred of verification whatsoever. Even the entire language it is founded on is a demonstrable fraud – but you are in such darkness n you can see nothing but lies.

  67. 68 shematwater
    April 2, 2012 at 6:46 am

    DAVID

    “blindly follow self-proclaimed prophets without demanding a shred of verification whatsoever”

    Once again you fail to understand our doctrine and our reasoning.
    I seek verification for everything, just not the same kind you do. The verification I want comes from God himself, and not from any earthly source. When I read the words of any prophet I seek the Lord’s guidence in understanding it, and for him to testify that what that prophet said was inspired by him. Once I have this I need nothing else.
    However, by your own admission you do not seek this, as you are constantly worries about false prophets and false spirits, so it is likely you would never trust the Spirit of god anyway. Simply put, if you are going to deny direct and personal revelation than you have to provide other verification for what you say. For this reason I ask you for your proof of what the Bible says.
    (Note, I do not demand verification from God, as he will give what he wants, and withhold what he wants, and it is not my place to demand anything of him.)

    “So scripture that expressly provides for nop exceptions actually has exceptions.”

    Few scriptures provide for no exceptions when the full context is understood. That is my point.
    Take, for instance, Matthew 19: 10-12. Christ had just given his answer to the Pharisees regarding divorce. After hearing it the Apostles asked “If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.” (verse 10)
    Jesus answered “All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
    For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (verses 11-12)

    That last line is so important. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. In other words, he that is able to live this law is required to live it, but he that is not able to live it is not required to do so.
    The same is true of every law of God.
    The context of the Gospel is one of mercy, which declares that nothing will be required of man except that which he is able to perform. “For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.” (D&C 137: 9)

    Words do have meaning, but the trick is to learn what that meaning is, as definition and connotation change from person to person and from time to time.

  68. April 3, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Shem

    ” I seek the Lord’s guidence in understanding it, and for him to testify that what that prophet said was inspired by him. Once I have this I need nothing else.”

    Yes you do need somthing else. In fact, you need something else instead. You need God’s true Word which is written for you to believe. John 20:31
    “7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)” 2 Cor. 5:7. “16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-18. “11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.” Galatians 3:11-13

    You keep looking to have God testify specifically to you while at the same time do not trust His Word given in the Bible which He said endures forever. Any spirit that is testifying to you that the prophets of the LDS church are true are NOT from God and are NOT leading you where you think they are.

    “Words do have meaning, but the trick is to learn what that meaning is, as definition and connotation change from person to person and from time to time.”

    “after” still means after. Both now and then. And “no one” is “no one.” But I think we have established we don’t see that eye to eye. Moving along. What is below speaks to the certainty and unchanging nature of God’s promise. This does not support the idea that God will need to keep on giving new revelations throughout the span of time. This is in the NIV (1984) translation because it is easier to follow but look up the KLV if you prefer.

    “13 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”[c] 15 And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
    16 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an ANCHOR for the soul, FIRM and SECURE. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” Hebrews 6:13-20

    Shem – I know you seek the Lord, I just pray that you finally realize where you need to look to find HIM.

  69. 70 shematwater
    April 3, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    DAVID

    “Yes you do need something else. In fact, you need something else instead. You need God’s true Word which is written for you to believe.”

    And this is why you will never understand.
    Let me ask you a few questions: Did Abraham need the scriptures to tell him that God had commanded him to sacrifice Isaac?
    Did Moses need the scriptures instead of the vision of the Burning Bush?
    Did Noah need the scriptures instead of the Ark?
    To say that the scriptures replace personal revelation is to deny God the power to speak to men today.

    The scriptures are wonderful things, and are given to us to edify our minds and bring us to a knowledge of God. But what good does all that knowledge do us if we fail to recognize God when he appears, or fail to act when he commands?

    I am reminded of a story of three ministers. Their superior came to visit them one day, bringing with him a special guest. When the first came to the meeting he was asked what he knew of God. He listed all his knowledge, expounding the scriptures. He was commended for his knowledge, and after some discussion left. The second then came in and was asked the same question. He also described all he knew, expounding scripture, and was commended for his knowledge. After some conversation he also left.
    The third then came in, and before any question could be asked he knelt down before the guest, saying “Master.”
    The first two knew the scriptures in detail, but they had not the discernment to recognize Christ when they saw him. The third had this discernment. So, which is better?

    “This does not support the idea that God will need to keep on giving new revelations throughout the span of time.”

    It doesn’t contradict it either.
    The problem is that God is unchangeable. If he operated through prophets in the past he will do so now. If he influenced the lives of the faithful through revelation, he will do so now. Yes, we have a firm anchor of hope in our faith in God, but that does not mean that God has stop speaking to men, nor that we do not need him to do so.

  70. April 3, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    Shem

    “And this is why you will never understand.”

    I understand Shem. I understand that Jesus said that it is finished and so it is. Let me just say this. Noah and Abraham didn’t have scripture because it had not been provided yet. ANd God Spoke to both directly. Scripture was given to Moses to whom God also spoke directly. But God also speaks to everyone through His written Word.

    “The scriptures are wonderful things, and are given to us to edify our minds and bring us to a knowledge of God. But what good does all that knowledge do us if we fail to recognize God when he appears, or fail to act when he commands? ”

    That’s your understanding of scripture, This is mine:

    “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.” John 1:1

    “14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ” John 1:14

    ” 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:31

    “28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. ” John 6:28-29

    “16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16

    You are the one who does not understand.

  71. 72 shematwater
    April 5, 2012 at 6:08 am

    DAVID

    As long as you hold the written word in higher regard than the spoken word you will always live in darkness.

    I don’t think this conversation can have anymore benefit.

    Good Day.


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