29
Mar
12

General Conference

 

This weekend the LDS Church holds its semi-annual General Conference.  Both on Saturday and Sunday the General Authorities of the LDS Church give talks.  In LDS churches around the world, the regular Sunday schedule is suspended so that members can listen to these talks.

The March edition of the LDS magazine, Ensign, had a number of articles stressing the importance of these General Conferences.  In one of those articles, entitled Follow the Prophet, Elder Randall K. Bennett of the Seventy, relates how he and his wife have benefited from following the words of the prophets.  He writes:  “In the years since, we have been blessed in many other ways by heeding the prophetic word.  We have learned not to question the validity of what the prophets and apostles teach or to wonder if it makes sense.  We have learned that by acting – and acting immediately – on their counsel, our lives are blessed.”

“Some might call our actions blind obedience.  But we have the Lord’s personal promise that the prophets will never lead us astray.  Knowing this helps us hear their voices as we would hear His own (see D&C 1:38).”

Note the example he holds up – and the LDS Church holds up by having this in its official magazine.  No questioning the validity of the teaching – no wondering if it makes sense.  Rather acting immediately on it.  So much so that it looks like blind obedience. Reliance on the personal promise of the Lord that the prophets will never lead them astray.

It will be interesting to see what will be said this weekend.  It will also be interesting to read blogs and comments written by LDS members in response to General Conference.  How many will follow that example?  If the reaction to the last General Conference is any indication, there will be some who won’t follow this example.  And if they don’t but instead question and wonder about what is said, what does that mean for them personally?  How does questioning the prophets affect their worthiness in the church?

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111 Responses to “General Conference”


  1. 1 joshtried
    March 29, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Just to follow. Any direct questions or concerns i can be reached ar
    williams.joshuajames@yahoo.com

  2. March 29, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    You don’t question anything Paul wrote…

    We believe in modern-day Prophets…you are just bashing us for believing that God has the ability to speak through His Prophets today as well as in times past…You limit God.

  3. March 29, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Kate said: “We believe in modern-day Prophets…you are just bashing us for believing that God has the ability to speak through His Prophets today as well as in times past…You limit God.”

    We are not “bashing” you.

    We don’t limit God. Mormons have no way of knowing when they are following a false prophet and Blind obedience to a false prophet leads to damnation in Outer Darkness for eternity.

  4. March 30, 2012 at 12:32 am

    Kate

    Do you believe Brigham Young’s teaching that Adam is God?

    Questioning the writers of the Bible only shows yet another of your disbeliefs.

    What would you question about what Paul wrote? Did Paul write something that was wrong?

  5. 5 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 12:45 am

    ECHO

    “Mormons have no way of knowing when they are following a false prophet ”

    This is untrue. We have the greatest and best way to know if a person is a false prophet. It is called direct revelation in which God sends Spirit to testify to us personally that the man is a prophet. This is always assisted by the basic tests given in the scriptures.

    DAVID

    “Questioning the writers of the Bible only shows yet another of your disbeliefs.”

    So, what you are saying is that for you to accept what the prophets of old said, regardless of it making sense, is different than us excepting the modern prophets regardless of it is makes sense.

    I don’t think Kate was saying she questioned Paul, but rather making this comparison.

    TO ALL

    It was the ‘christians’ on this blog who either posted or supported the accusation against the LDS that we worship logic rather than having faith. There was an entire thread dedicated to this very idea. We were evil idol worshipers for using logic in our reasoning. Mark even went so far as to say that if we did use logic he ignored it as that just didn’t apply.
    However, now that we are saying that logic is not required, that not everything has to make sense to us, as long as we believe and follow, we are being ridiculed for ‘Blind Faith’ and not being reasonable.
    It seems that the so called christians here want to pick and choose when logic is applicable in the discussion.

    So, I would like an answer to this: Why is it that our logical reasoning is not applicable, but yours is?

  6. March 30, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Shem said: “This is untrue. We have the greatest and best way to know if a person is a false prophet. It is called direct revelation in which God sends Spirit to testify to us personally that the man is a prophet. This is always assisted by the basic tests given in the scriptures”

    How do you know the direct revelation you receive is from God and not from the Devil pretending to be God?

    Which tests in scripture are you referring to?

    Shem said: “It was the ‘Christians’ on this blog who either posted or supported the accusation against the LDS that we worship logic rather than having faith. There was an entire thread dedicated to this very idea. We were evil idol worshipers for using logic in our reasoning. Mark even went so far as to say that if we did use logic he ignored it as that just didn’t apply.
    However, now that we are saying that logic is not required that not everything has to make sense to us, as long as we believe and follow, we are being ridiculed for ‘Blind Faith’ and not being reasonable.
    It seems that the so called Christians here want to pick and choose when logic is applicable in the discussion.

    So, I would like an answer to this: Why is it that our logical reasoning is not applicable, but yours is?

    The thread wasn’t about “worshipping logic rather than having faith”. It was about worshipping logic. Nor did that thread imply that we have to be illogical in order to believe. The thread was about worshipping logic rather than God when we put logic as number #1 and God’s word as #2. In other words, it was about using logic to decide what scripture means. Logic should not shape our doctrine. Doctrine must shape our logic.

    There is a difference between blind faith and a faith founded on scripture where one believes what is written even when it doesn’t seem logical to us.

  7. March 30, 2012 at 1:52 am

    Shem

    “So, what you are saying is that for you to accept what the prophets of old said, regardless of it making sense, is different than us excepting the modern prophets regardless of it is makes sense.”

    I don’t have to worry about anomilous doctrines and false prophets – you do. I don’t belong to a church that had a prophet that taught as doctrine that Satan successfully tempted God or a god (Adam). I noticed you keep dodging the hard questions. Where are those poor souls who followed Brigham Young’s doctrine that Adam is God? Where are the people who back in their time took the position youy take today? What would you have believed if you lived in his day? Would you have defended his teaching or spoken out against it as merely an “anomally.” You simply refuse to confront the truth.

    Remember this Shem said, ““Truth is truth, and it matters not in what age of the world it is revealed, or who it is that reveals it. What God reveals to one generation he reveals to another, with no changing or deviation.”

  8. March 30, 2012 at 1:55 am

    “Where are those poor souls who followed Brigham Young’s doctrine that Adam is God?”

    And will the doctrines Mormons believe today be as absurd and false to future generations of Mormons as the Adam-God doctrine is to this generation of Mormons?

  9. March 30, 2012 at 2:01 am

    Shem

    “I don’t think Kate was saying she questioned Paul, but rather making this comparison.”

    I know what SHE was saying. If there is nothing to question about Paul’s writings then why ask the question? It would be like her asking why I don’t question the fact that the sky is blue. Your answer, yet again, does not answer the questions I posed to her.

  10. 10 joshtried
    March 30, 2012 at 5:57 am

    David,
    I like how you have evaded the same question as Shem.
    Moses taught that Divorce was acceptable. This is in direct opposition to what Christ said.
    This is the exact same thing you are asking Shem to speak to. You were not alive when Moses was, you only know the tidbits found in the bible. Shem was not alive when Brigham Young was (to my knowledge of course, as i have never met shem, and i dont know how old he is). No body that is alive today can attest to exactly what was said by him at any given time. Even those that did speak out… You say they were telling the truth. You seem to accept that on blind faith. you were not there. you dont know. Again, doing exactly that which you accuse us of doing, yet come so strongly across to say we are wrong. pull the tree out of your eye my friend, let Shem worry about his splinter.

    To Kate’s question:
    She is asking the question BECAUSE there is not more concerning Paul’s teachings. If you saw ONLY the truth taught by the LDS, would you accept it as truth, regardless of who spoke it? This is the biggest question here. do you accept truth, regardless of who speaks it?

    One of the apostles was a politician (which even back then was a liar…) Do you accept everything he contributed to the Bible? If so, why? Because God inspired him? But he was a liar… so, according to you, i cannot accept this doctrine.
    This is the same thing regarding ANY of the bible, and it’s numerous contributors. If Timothy beat his wife, would you accept his doctrine in the Bible? If Titus was a child molester, would you accept his additions to the Bible? What about if Isaiah was an axe murderer? Do I have anything to back these horrendous claims up? Of course not, we have ABSOLUTELY no written record other than what is in the Bible.. Just because ANY person decided to go against God, does not mean that what God say was not true. Did anyone lead others astray? I dont know. I dont know if what is quoted is correct, and i dont know if others went around posing as Mr. Young claiming to be him. I accept the truth we know he spoke, and move on. Shem said this same thing in a less eloquent way, and you grilled him for it.
    In turn, explain how you accept anything Moses taught, and how many people he lead to divorce through his teaching that it was acceptable? What is going to happen to Moses? What is going to happen to all those souls he lead astray?
    What about Jonah? Didnt he basically tell God “no way, no how, it isnt going to happen!!!”?? Yet, you accept someone that tried to INTENTIONALLY NOT DO what God commanded. Now, granted, i have only been a LDS member for 8 years. In that time, i have never known a prophet to intentionally go against what God instructed.

    David, this is not meant to chastise, and i apologize in advance if you see it that way. Hope you have a great day.

  11. 11 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    ECHO

    “There is a difference between blind faith and a faith founded on scripture where one believes what is written even when it doesn’t seem logical to us.”

    So, it is okay to have blind faith in scripture but not in living prophets. Got it. Don’t you see the double standard here?

    “Logic should not shape our doctrine. Doctrine must shape our logic.”

    I couldn’t agree more, and I made a post that explained this very point on that thread. The real difference is that because our logic is based on our doctrine and not yours you feel justified in accusing us of worshiping logic. Because we have a different starting point than you we have to be idol worshipers.
    Again, this is a double standard.

    DAVID

    “I noticed you keep dodging the hard questions.”

    You dodge more than I do. And actually, I simply ignored the questions. There is little point in explaining truth to those who will only mock you and ridicule what God has declared.
    However, I will give an answer here, though I am sure you will find some way to twist so that no one who knows LDS doctrine could recognize it.
    Simply put: No one who follows the teachings of a prophet can be condemned for doing so. If the man was called of God and taught a doctrine, than no one will be condemned for believing him as he was called of God. However, if the doctrine was not actually revealed by God no one will be condemned for rejecting it either. If we are unable to determine whether it was from God or the man than accepting or rejecting it doesn’t matter in the slightest, as a man cannot be condemned or saved in ignorance.
    So, for those living at the time, who had more access to all his words, and him for explanation of them, if they understood exactly what he was teaching and excepted it they are fine. If they rejected it and it was not revealed by God they are also fine. For those living today, who do not have the same access, and thus do not have a full understanding of what he taught, it doesn’t matter, because believing or rejecting will be done in ignorance, and thus will have no effect on our eternal salvation.

    “If there is nothing to question about Paul’s writings then why ask the question?”

    There is really nothing to question in the words of our leaders spoken in conference to us today either, so why ask the question?
    I know you want to drag Brigham Young back into this, but the thread was started because of what one man said in regards to the conferences today, not in regards to the discourses of the past.

    Speaking of Paul, I heard many people question his statements that a woman should not speak in church, or that a woman is subject to her husband, or that she should wear a veil while praying. Paul actually makes several comments regarding women that many in the modern day question.

  12. March 30, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Shem said: “So, it is okay to have blind faith in scripture but not in living prophets. Got it. Don’t you see the double standard here?”

    You misunderstood me. A faith founded on scriptures even when it rubs against all logic, is not blind faith. That same scripture warns against false prophets who come to us in Sheep’s clothing. That brings me back to the questions I asked in my last post which are…

    How do you know the direct revelation you receive is from God and not from the Devil pretending to be God?

    Which tests in scripture are you referring to?

    Shem said: “I couldn’t agree more, and I made a post that explained this very point on that thread. The real difference is that because our logic is based on our doctrine and not yours you feel justified in accusing us of worshiping logic. Because we have a different starting point than you we have to be idol worshipers.
    Again, this is a double standard.”

    You missed the whole point of that thread.

  13. 13 JBR
    March 30, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Yes, it will be interesting.

    And of course there is the “anomaly” factor. Isn’t great to know that one can conveniently operate under this, when the appologists have no other way to defend falsehoods.

    It is blind allegiance to a one legged stool, dependent that apostasty is fact, and that circular logic has no glitches.

    The fact remains that the Bible alone is the greatest threat to Mormonism. For within it we have God’s full revelation on our postion toward God as a condemned sinner, and our position with God made perfect … free without cost .. without obligation. In it Jesus reveals all that God wanted for us to know.

  14. March 30, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Josh

    “David, this is not meant to chastise, and i apologize in advance if you see it that way. Hope you have a great day.”

    No problem Josh. At least you explain what you see from your perspective in an honest and straight forward manner. I don’t mind.

    I’m not saying that the prophets were perfect people. Jonah at first defied the Lord as you point out. That was the reason he spent 3 days in the belly of the great fish. After he told the people EXACTLY (note his that warning was true!) what the Lord commanded he was angry because God had compassion on the people of Nineveh. Even Elijah, after standing by himself showing 450 Baal prophets the power of God and slaying them for their idol worship (see 1 Kings 18), we read in the next chapter (1 Kings 19) that Elijah was afraid of Jezebel and ran for his life. Elijah had his faults too, yet the Lord took him to heaven in whirlwind. Moses killed someone, yet he was the one chosen to lead God’s people. Peter denied the Lord 3 times, Paul was Saul the Christian persecutor before his conversion. The prophets and the apostles had their sins and faults like everyone else. In fact their weaknesses and sinfulness shows God’s mercy toward all of us.

    “15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” 1 Timothy 15-17.

    Despte ther faults the prophets and the Apostles when they spoke were not speaking for themselves but were speaking for God. Jesus tells HIs apostles that they will speak the truth in his name. “13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.John 16:13 ” And again in John 14:26 –
    “26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” And then there is “16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 15.

    Do I know I can trust what the prophets say in the BIble? Yes, absolutely everytime! Because, even with their faults these prophets are true prophets and when they speak for God it is not themselves they speak for. God guides their words therefore they are true and never, never, never fail to be truthful. It’s not up to me to sit in judgment on God’s choice of prophets. Its not for me to decide which writer of the Bible I will believe or not. I believe them – because I KNOW FOR CERTAIN GOD CHOSE THEM ALL. God used who he used for His purposes but when they spoke for the Lord it was the Lord who was speaking. That’s why Jesus fulfilled 100% of every prophecy spoken (yes Shem even written) about Him. God’s prophets have a 100% accuracy rating. A “prophet” with an accuracy rating of 99.9999% is a false prophet – every single time.

    What I can and should do though to anyone who preaches his Word is to check what they say against what the Bible says. If their teaching does not agree with scripture, then follow scripture and do not them. See Acts 17:11 talking about the Bereans who would check what Paul says against what scripture said. That’s one job elders have. If a pastor ( and they are human – the distinction being from prophets is that pastors are instructing in Gods’ Word not proclaiming to be Speaking for God by direct revelation) teaches something incorrectly or apparently incorrect, the elders point out scripture to him and he checks his own instruction with scripture himself and either corrects himself, explains why his instruction is correct, or clarifies his prior instruction.

    “5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” 1 John 4: 5-6.

    Pay attention to that last quote Josh – note “he that knoweth God hearth us.” Do not look for reasons not to hear what they say Josh. Listen to them because they ALWAYS speak the truth. WHose prophets have errors? Whose prophets have never erred? One question I could ask you is if the Bible is so corrupted, so much that even the original Hebrew and Greek texts are not trusted (I have offered links to these resources and have had no takers) then how is it that, in spite of all that supposed corruption of the Word did Jesus fulfill every single prophecy written about HIm? Since He fulfilled every prophecy doesn’t that refute the whole premise that the Bible was corrupted?

    With respect to Moses and marriage, did he lead people astray? No. But his people did manage of go astray nonetheless and spend 40 years in the desert because of it. Jesus explained that this was a concession Moses wrote in the law because their hearts were hard. Mark 10:5 It appears from the context as though Moses wrote the law not in order for them to divorce, but because of circumstances were they were divorcing their spouses already and wanted it memorialized. I really don’t know for sure the circumstances for this concession (If anyone Non-LDS can explain this better feel free) But then again Josh it really doesn’t matter because there is no question Moses was a true prophet.

  15. 15 JBR
    March 30, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    CORRECTIONS IN —> [ ]
    and our position with God [being] made perfect … free without cost .. without obligation [with Jesus being our subsitute]. In it, Jesus reveals all that God wanted for us to know.

  16. 16 shematwater
    March 30, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    ECHO

    “A faith founded on scriptures even when it rubs against all logic, is not blind faith.”

    How is it not blind faith? What is there that proves it to be true? Where is the proof that everything the Bible says is true?

    Your faith may be founded on scripture, but your faith in scripture is blind, and thus your foundation is blind faith.

    Our faith is also founded on scripture, for everything that God reveals and causes to be written is scripture, which includes the conference addresses.

    “How do you know the direct revelation you receive is from God and not from the Devil pretending to be God?”

    I know, and that is something that cannot be explained.
    I try not to answer these kind of questions here, as they really have no point, and answering them will serve no purpose.

    Tests of a prophet: Does what they say come to pass? Do they agree with what is written in the scriptures? These are the two questions that must be asked, and if answered affirmatively then the man is likely a prophet. If answered in the negative they are likely not a prophet. However it is only through direct revelation that we truly come to know the truth, and so these tests are only a preliminary, and should not be used to override the direct revelation from God.

  17. March 30, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    SHem

    “If the man was called of God and taught a doctrine, than no one will be condemned for believing him as he was called of God. However, if the doctrine was not actually revealed by God no one will be condemned for rejecting it either.”

    You forget something. Brigham Young unequivocally called it doctrine. HE thought is was from God. And if doctrine isn’t actually revealed by God, by a “prophet” leading others saying it is from God You have got an enormous problem. HE IS FALSE PROPHET!

    Of course I’m sure you can ignore that too.

    “1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;” 1 Timothy 4

    “13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Matthew 7:13-15.

    “Speaking of Paul, I heard many people question his statements that a woman should not speak in church, or that a woman is subject to her husband, or that she should wear a veil while praying. Paul actually makes several comments regarding women that many in the modern day question.”

    Do you question it?

  18. March 30, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Shem

    “I know, and that is something that cannot be explained.”

    Now that is blind faith!

  19. March 30, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    “If the man was called of God and taught a doctrine, than no one will be condemned for believing him as he was called of God. However, if the doctrine was not actually revealed by God no one will be condemned for rejecting it either.”

    Scripture teaches us to “WATCH OUT” for false prophets and false teachers. Why? Because if we follow them we will be condemned into outer darkness for all eternity.

    Mathew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

    Mathew 7:22-23 “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ “

  20. March 30, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Shem said: “How is it not blind faith? What is there that proves it to be true? Where is the proof that everything the Bible says is true?

    Your faith may be founded on scripture, but your faith in scripture is blind, and thus your foundation is blind faith.

    Our faith is also founded on scripture, for everything that God reveals and causes to be written is scripture, which includes the conference addresses.”

    Shem, there are over 300 prophecies in the OT about Jesus. Only God(Jesus) could fulfill all of them. Those prophecies could not be fulfilled by any man. Then we have Jesus. The resurrection proves who Jesus is. Jesus put his stamp of approval on the OT and the NT is written by those who Jesus himself chose or those closely associated with the people Jesus himself chose. We have archeological evidence that supports the Bible 100%, testimony from atheists, Muslims, Jews that Jesus existed.

    The BOM has none of this.

    Shem said: “I know, and that is something that cannot be explained.
    I try not to answer these kind of questions here, as they really have no point, and answering them will serve no purpose.”

    This is THEE point on which your faith stands or falls and you can’t explain it? I think this is such an important thing to discuss since I believe the direct revelation you receive is from Satan tricking you. And I believe that these direct revelations are leading you more and more away from God. The end result of that being outer darkness. Something I don’t want for you.

  21. March 30, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Shem said: “Tests of a prophet: Does what they say come to pass? Do they agree with what is written in the scriptures? These are the two questions that must be asked, and if answered affirmatively then the man is likely a prophet. If answered in the negative they are likely not a prophet. However it is only through direct revelation that we truly come to know the truth, and so these tests are only a preliminary, and should not be used to override the direct revelation from God.”

    Click on this link for a sample of Joseph Smith’s false prophecies…

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm

  22. March 30, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Josh said: “David, I like how you have evaded the same question as Shem.
    Moses taught that Divorce was acceptable.”

    This was discussed recently in the thread: “2 Nephi 25:23” Feb 24,2012

    There you will read that Moses did not teach that Divorce was acceptable but rather he “suffered” it. Please read that thread for the details.

  23. March 30, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    Thanks Echo –

    “This was discussed recently in the thread: “2 Nephi 25:23″ Feb 24,2012
    There you will read that Moses did not teach that Divorce was acceptable but rather he “suffered” it. Please read that thread for the details.”

    Echo – how long have you been in your back and forth with Shem?

  24. March 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Dave said: “Echo – how long have you been in your back and forth with Shem?”

    Around 2 years, maybe a bit longer.

  25. March 30, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Echo

    There is a special place in Heaven for you :)

  26. March 30, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Dave said: “There is a special place in Heaven for you”

    I am unworthy of any special place in heaven. The only thing Shem and I equally deserve is outer darkness.

    The only difference between Shem and I is that I am trusting in Christ alone and therefore will get what Christ deserves(eternal life), Shem is currently trusting in himself therefore he will get what he deserves(Outer Darkness).

    I would like to see Shem come to trust in Christ alone.

    :)

  27. 27 joshtried
    March 30, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    But then again Josh it really doesn’t matter because there is no question Moses was a true prophet.

    This is exactly my point… and every other LDS person’s here. If a prophecy does not come true immediately, does this make the person a false prophet? What of Isaiah prophesying of Christ? Was he a false prophet UNTIL Christ came? What all of us (LDS) are asking is IF you were alive at the time of all this happening, would you believe the prophet of the time? Hind sight is 20/20. As LDS, we also accept that there were many prophets on the earth. Even some whose dealings with the Lord are not written in the Bible. Does this make them anything less than the prophet they were? no, it doesnt. I do not know the context of anything BY taught. i honestly havent researched it that much. I also dont know the context of paul’s teachings. I accept what i know is truth, as truth is revealed by the spirit of discernment.

    If Satan were to come today and say that Christ was going to return, would he then be a prophet? Would you accept everything else he said, because we know this is going to happen? Well, Satan is the Father of lies, right? so what would happen in this instance? Would Christ no longer return to this earth just to prove Satan is the Father of lies? (I love dealing in the hypothetical……)
    What about the ~150 demons that Christ cast out that took up the swines bodies. They were demons, they killed themselves by running into the water with the swines bodies.. demons lie, so by admitting they were demons, do you accept this?
    Truth is truth is truth is truth is truth, etc…. Do you believe the truth regardless of who speaks it?

    And back to Moses… my point is not to discredit him. My point is that even what we do know of his life he had some serious shortcomings. If you knew EVERYTHING about his life, would you still regard him in the same way, or would you rationalize him out as you are attempting to do with our prophets. Looking back and saying “oh yeah, he was definitely a prophet” is REALLY easy.. looking for a prophet now, now that takes some skill, and a willingness to be open to what God will reveal.

  28. March 30, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Josh,

    Have you checked out the false prophecies of Joseph Smith?

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm

    The Bible teaches that if a prophet makes one prophecy that doesn’t come true, he is a false prophet.

  29. March 30, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    Echo said:

    “I would like to see Shem come to trust in Christ alone.”

    Amen

  30. March 30, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Josh

    If a prophecy does not come true immediately, does this make the person a false prophet?

    Of course not. What makes them a false prophet is that although they declare themselves to be speaking for God they are lying.

    Jesus warned us to be aware of false prophets. It is therefore important to test the “prophets” against what scriptures says. Remember a false prophet will need to be convincing. Jesus said they would be successfull at deceiving many. They have help by the master of deception in deceiving people. He is good at it. The LDS church discredits the BIble (that is reaffirmed on this blog virtually everyday), that is something that only benefits a false prophet. It enables him to cover up his falsity. It like needing the correct grading key to score a test. If you change the test scoring key, what would have been a failing test using the correct scoring key could be an A+ under a bogus text scoring key. On the other hand, using that same bogus scoring key, a test that would be an A+ with the correct score key could score an F with the bogus scoring key. That is the closest analogy I can use to describe what happens by not completely trusting the BIble and instead relying on relevations from prophets that will not bind themselves to the true Word of God. You can’t use the very test the Apostles tell you to use to test the prophets. They have changed the scoring key. They appear true, when in fact they are false. You must accept them on their own word and on their own self-created scripture. The whole idea that the Bible was corrupted and Christ Church defeated is all directly contrary to what God Himself says in the Bible.

    What are we told about false prophets?

    1 . That they will deceive many. Matthew 24:11
    2. That they will appear in the last days. Matthew 24:3
    3. That they will appear in sheeps clothing. Matthew 7:15
    4. We are told that if ANYONE, including an angel from heaven briings another gospel, they should be condemned. Galations 1:8
    5. We are warned that Satan can appear as an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14
    6. We are told that “it is no great thing if ministers of Satan are transformed as ministers of righteousness
    2 Corinthians 11:15
    7. They will lie, see false visions, have delusions Jeremiah 14:14, Ezekiel 13:9

    What are we told about God’s Word and HIs true gospel:

    “23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” 1 Peter 1 23-25

    Was God’s New Covenant Really Filled by Jesus Alone? Absolutely yes! We see this from when God spoke of the new convenant to Jeremiah in the Old Testament and its fulfillment explained in Hebrews.

    OT Jeremiah 31:31-34

    31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:  32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:  33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.  34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    NT – Hebrews 10:5-18

    5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.  7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.  8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;  9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.  10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:  12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;  13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
     14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.  15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,  16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
     17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    By His Grace God put the full punishment of our sin on Jesus and on Him alone, and by Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection alone – we are made right with God to have eternal life with Him. That is the truth.

  31. 31 joshtried
    March 31, 2012 at 3:43 am

    Echo: I had a few moments at work at read through 3 of the prophecies concerned, and the D&C scripture correlating to the prophecy.

    The honest question i have for you is this: If i do prove that the prophecies were not wrong, would you believe me?

    David: I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this: By His Grace God put the full punishment of our sin on Jesus and on Him alone, and by Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection alone – we are made right with God to have eternal life with Him. That is the truth.

    now, what we as LDS believe is that this scripture is ADDED to the ENDING of what you just said:
    Revelation 20:12
    12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    This doesnt say we get to heaven based on works. It says we are judged based on them. Why we are judged, i leave for you to decide. I merely say that we will be.

    And as a complete and total weirdness thing.. that scripture is 2012…. or this year.. YAY :P

    And again, mostly as a curiosity at this point, I will ask for any “Christian” volunteers that want to take a stab at who Satan is and why he fell from heaven.

  32. 32 shematwater
    March 31, 2012 at 4:48 am

    ECHO

    “Shem is currently trusting in himself therefore he will get what he deserves”

    Again you are trying to tell me what I believe and who I am trusting in. You have no right to declare what is in my heart, and yet you continually try to do so. Why?

    “there are over 300 prophecies in the OT about Jesus. Only God(Jesus) could fulfill all of them. Those prophecies could not be fulfilled by any man. Then we have Jesus. The resurrection proves who Jesus is. Jesus put his stamp of approval on the OT and the NT is written by those who Jesus himself chose or those closely associated with the people Jesus himself chose.”

    So, you believe the Bible is true because it says it is true. This is the same circular logic that JBR tried to accuse us of. Maybe you should go back and read his posts on previous threads.
    I know all about the prophecies, but are they actually recorded in any record other than the Bible?
    I also know all about the fulfillments of these prophecies, but they are also only recorded in the Bible?
    The resurrection is only recorded in the Bible.
    Christ’s approval of the OT, and his choosing of the writers of the New Testament are only recorded in the Bible?

    The evidence you really have is that a man named Jesus lived at about that time, and that is not proof of anything else.
    Now, don’t get me wrong. I agree with this, but it is what it is. Your belief in the Bible is no different than our belief in following the prophets, except that we are following people who are alive now.

    “The BOM has none of this.”

    The Book of Mormon has more than you think, and certainly a lot more than you would ever be willing to admit.

    “I think this is such an important thing to discuss since I believe the direct revelation you receive is from Satan tricking you. And I believe that these direct revelations are leading you more and more away from God.”

    Notice the difference in our words. You believe it is Satan, and yet I know that it is God. I will correct my statement of earlier, however, and say that I can’t explain it in a way that you would accept. I know the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of Satan, and because I know this difference I know that it is God’s spirit that has revealed these things. Believe what you want for now, but the time will come when you will acknowledge that we are write, for every knee will bow, and every tongue confess.

    And on a final note: I have not read the list you gave, but I know the basics of all the supposed false prophesies, and have even discussed a few on this blog. I have yet to see one that was truly false when properly understood; but I also have yet to see anyone here admit that any of these were not false (they usually just say I don’t know what I am talking about) so what is the point is addressing it again.

    DAVID

    “Brigham Young unequivocally called it doctrine.”

    Unless you have read every single quote now in existence, as well as every single quote that we no longer have a record of, you are in no position to declare what he taught as doctrine and what he didn’t. As I have not read all these I am also not in a position to make such a judgment (though I would venture to guess I have read more than you).

    From everything I have read I think it more likely that he taught sertain aspects as doctrine, and added the rest as his own musings; but given his style of speaking the two got a little confusing at times.

  33. 33 shematwater
    March 31, 2012 at 4:56 am

    This is a quote from David on the thread “the Great Apostacy” regarding 1 Corinthians 15: 29

    “The truth is Paul is not clear about the context of this passage. But we do know the practice of baptizing for the dead is not discussed anyhwere else in the Bible but this one passing comment and then never again. The practice is not condoned, commanded, explained, directed or encouraged.”

    I find it funny that he can dismiss comments made by Paul based in the fact that he doesn’t understand the intended context and meaning, but we are not allowed to do the same in regards to the words of Brigham Young. To many Christians this verse is considered an anomaly, and is most often just ignored. Why are we not extended the same courtesy?

  34. March 31, 2012 at 5:04 am

    Josh said: “The honest question i have for you is this: If i do prove that the prophecies were not wrong, would you believe me?”

    You would have to prove that all of the prophecy happened. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy is a sign of a false prophet.

  35. March 31, 2012 at 5:19 am

    Echo said: “Shem is currently trusting in himself therefore he will get what he deserves”

    Shem replied: “Again you are trying to tell me what I believe and who I am trusting in. You have no right to declare what is in my heart, and yet you continually try to do so. Why?”

    According to Christian Doctrine (Not LDS Doctrine), you are currently trusting in yourself and you will get what you deserve (outer Darkness). I have no right to declare what is in your heart but God himself has declared all these things about you and every unbeliever in the Bible. (Christian doctrine not LDS doctrine)

  36. March 31, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Shem

    “Unless you have read every single quote now in existence, as well as every single quote that we no longer have a record of, you are in no position to declare what he taught as doctrine and what he didn’t.”

    That is nonsense.

  37. March 31, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Shem

    “I find it funny that he can dismiss comments made by Paul based in the fact that he doesn’t understand the intended context and meaning, but we are not allowed to do the same in regards to the words of Brigham Young. To many Christians this verse is considered an anomaly, and is most often just ignored. Why are we not extended the same courtesy?”

    You only say that because you are looking to make some kind of valid comparison. It isn’t. Paul’s remarks were just a passing comment without elaboration. Brigham Young taught this over an extended period of time, it was picked up and taught by others, and He declared it doctrine. I’m sure He knows what he decided to call doctrine even if you and other wished he had not. There is no valid comparison here.

  38. March 31, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Josh

    Thanks for the reply in post 31. I want to take some time (not to be long just concise and thoughtful) to give you reply on it and I’m short on time at the moment. I’ll get back to you on this one.

  39. 39 JBR
    March 31, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Shem…
    There is a difference between accusations vs stating facts.

    Facts is ..is that you’re using circular arguments to validate the truthfulness of each independent segment to keep Mormonism’s validity.

    ….. LDS is only as true as the BoM (and other LDS scriptures) are…
    ….. LDS “scriptures” are so long as the LDS “prophets” are…..
    ….. The LDS “prophets” are so long as the “apostasy” is fact
    ….. The “apostasy” is as long as the Bible is NOT complete
    …… Thus the need for the circular inter dependency

    For if because the Bible is complete and absolute, then what…?

    Then Bible makes everything in Mormonism unnecessary…

    No more “doing all you can do”
    No more “being exalted via being married”
    No more need for a temple
    No more need to prove oneself worthy
    No more need to wait for the assuredness of complete forgiveness
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    For if because the Bible is complete absolute, then what…?

    God was not a man who progressed
    God is not married
    God does not have “spirit children” … “spirit children” who become “like him”..

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    For if because the Bible is complete and absolute, then what…?

    John 20:31
    “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

  40. 40 joshtried
    March 31, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    You would have to prove that all of the prophecy happened.

    To this i say exactly the same to you echo. I will not give example out of your list, merely because i want you to read and come to your own conclusion. I want to stress how a lot of prophecies regarding Israel were stated though..
    Israel: behave and i will bless you thusly, act a fool and i will treat you like one. (obviously this is a drastic paraphrasing, but to me is an appropriate condensation of how they worked) Through the ones i read of JS this was the same theme i saw. Read the context of each of them and tell me if you see this same thing. Honestly, i did not read each one.. Might try later today. If you see one that u feel particularly strong on, that u feel truly proves he was not a prophet after reading the entire covenant therein, please made it known so that we may all take the opportunity to learn about it together.

  41. 41 joshtried
    March 31, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    JBR, you mentioned no more need for a temple. Can you explain to me why Christ did not destroy the temple, but instead got rid of the money changers?
    Also, would you care to elaborate on the revelations quote i threw in earlier?

  42. April 1, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Josh
    “I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this: By His Grace God put the full punishment of our sin on Jesus and on Him alone, and by Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection alone – we are made right with God to have eternal life with Him. That is the truth.”

    Remember my analogy of the scoring key? Do you believe that if you were to die today you would have perfect righteousness before God based solely on what Jesus did for you? Do you believe that you contribute nothing to your righteousness before God? Or do you believe that Jesus made it possible for you to obtain perfect righteousness through your works and obedience to all LDS laws and ordinances?
    you quoted Revelations 20:12
    “12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ”

    Then you commented:
    “This doesnt say we get to heaven based on works. It says we are judged based on them. Why we are judged, i leave for you to decide. I merely say that we will be.”

    You are right when you say we don’t get to heaven based on our own works. Being “judged” according to works simply means the same reality of faith that is discussed in James 2 – that true faith is ALWAYS accompanied by works, and that faith without works is dead. Works, those referred to in Rev. 20:12, are the fruits (or result) of that saving FAITH in Christ’s perfect and all sufficient sacrifice made on our behalf. “28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29.

  43. 43 shematwater
    April 1, 2012 at 4:14 am

    JBR

    “There is a difference between accusations vs stating facts.”

    There is only a slight difference, as it is facts that are used to support the accusation. But you are not merely stating facts, nor are you accurately portraying our reasoning.

    Either way the reasoning of both you and Echo is the same as ours, it just has a different basis.

    “For if because the Bible is complete absolute, then what…?”

    Great (not that I agree with your reasoning). So, what proves that the Bible is true? According to what Echo stated the Bible proves that the Bible is true.
    This is no different than what you say our reasoning is, it is just applied to your faith instead of ours.

    ECHO

    “According to Christian Doctrine (Not LDS Doctrine), you are currently trusting in yourself and you will get what you deserve (outer Darkness).”

    Since Christian doctrine is false doctrine than I guess I am doing fine. I am just glad that God is truly more merciful than you ever give him credit for.

    DAVID

    The comparison is perfectly valid, no matter how much you want to deny it.

    “Paul’s remarks were just a passing comment without elaboration.”

    Do you know that he never elaborated on it? Have you read everything that he ever wrote, or listened to everything he ever read? There are at least three epistles that he wrote to the saints that we no longer have, and likely many more that we don’t even know about. No one can say (unless God reveals it to them) exactly what he said concerning this doctrine throughout his life, as we have only a small fraction in the accounts we now posses.

    “Brigham Young taught this over an extended period of time, it was picked up and taught by others, and He declared it doctrine.”

    This is true, to some extent. However, as you cannot prove that Paul did not teach Baptism for the Dead over and extended period, with others also teaching it, and declaring it to be doctrine, you cannot actually say there is a difference.

    You argument hinges on the fact that we actually have a greater record of the words of Brigham young than we do of Paul. That is it.
    This is my point. You don’t know everything that Paul wrote. Suppose we were to find his first epistle to the Corinthians (mentioned in our 1 Corinthians) and it contained a detail discourse on baptism for the dead, declaring it to be doctrine and an essential ordinance? (You have to enjoy hypotheticals.) What if we found his other epistles and discovered they also taught the doctrine? What if epistles from John and Peter were found teaching the doctrine?

    I don’t understand everything that Brigham Young taught, but I understand more than you do. I can state positively that he didn’t mean half of what you claim.
    Since you don’t want to face the fact that without complete and total context it is truly impossible to understand what he meant, let us just establish on thing. How many of the quotes that have been tossed around on this sight concerning this have you read in their full context (meaning the enter discourse from which they were taken, along with acquiring a basic knowledge of the current events and social, economic, and political atmosphere of the time in which they were made)?

  44. 44 joshtried
    April 1, 2012 at 5:52 am

    David:
    You are right when you say we don’t get to heaven based on our own works. Being “judged” according to works simply means the same reality of faith that is discussed in James 2 – that true faith is ALWAYS accompanied by works, and that faith without works is dead.

    That is all that any LDS person has been trying to say to you since the start of works/salvation debate. Thank you for recognizing that this is right, and that this is what those who have been talking to you believe, regardless of whether you believe it to be presented correctly by certain LDS scriptures.
    Now, i do recognize that you had an end point here: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    I ask you, what things will you do if you believe?? This little group becomes tighter and tighter as it goes…
    Faith ALWAYS has works, those works are believing Christ. If you TRULY believe Christ you will do X. and so on and so forth.

    Again, whether you see it presented correctly, or worded exactly right, THIS is what we are taught as LDS. I truly hope that you can recognize this. I am in no way asking you to agree with every fiber of your being with EVERY teaching that any LDS person has ever made. I am asking you to please accept that THIS, THIS very thing is what we teach regarding THIS subject.

  45. 45 JBR
    April 1, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Josh……… Is this what you’re referring too? ( in between the \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ “s)

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    now, what we as LDS believe is that this scripture is ADDED to the ENDING of what you just said:
    Revelation 20:12
    12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    This doesnt say we get to heaven based on works. It says we are judged based on them. Why we are judged, i leave for you to decide. I merely say that we will be.

    And as a complete and total weirdness thing.. that scripture is 2012…. or this year.. YAY :P

    And again, mostly as a curiosity at this point, I will ask for any “Christian” volunteers that want to take a stab at who Satan is and why he fell from heaven.
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

  46. April 1, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Shem

    “Do you know that he never elaborated on it? Have you read everything that he ever wrote, or listened to everything he ever read? . . . . You don’t know everything that Paul wrote.This is true, to some extent. However, as you cannot prove that Paul did not teach Baptism for the Dead over and extended period, with others also teaching it, and declaring it to be doctrine, you cannot actually say there is a difference.”

    God is in control of His Word. OUr salvation depends on what God has done and continues to do for us through faith in Jesus and not on our efforts. His Word creates and maintains faith through the HOly Spirit. I don’t need to know every single word Paul wrote that is not in the Bible. Let’s take the gospel of John as an example:

    “30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” John 20:30-31

    John is acknowledging that there were other things he could have written about, but THESE things are written so you may believe that Jesus is the Christ. What we have been given by God in the Bible is all of HIs Word He decided to give us. I know you believe differently but His Word given in the Bible is sufficient for us.

    It seems like you want to look at everything BUT the Bible to believe, when the Bible is the ONLY thing that is the inerrant uncorruptible Word of God. I don’t need to speculate on what else Paul may have written because I have what he says in the Bible.

  47. April 1, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Josh

    “Again, whether you see it presented correctly, or worded exactly right,”

    If you had answered my prior questions your answers would have allowed me to show that this is much more than just how it is worded. Let me say it this way. I believe that works DO NOT SAVE US OR MAKE US WORTHY BEFORE GOD. I believe that I have been credited with Christ’s righteousness right now and have already been made perfect in the sight of the Heavenly Father, – it does not depend one bit on how well I comply with the law. “19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:19-20

    Your gospel includes compliance with laws and ordinances and mine does not, Jesus complied with the law perfectly in my place. I believe Ephesians 2

    “8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

    You want to do works to receive the “grace” (as defined by the LDS church) which follows works (I know LDS members on this blog deny this but this is clearly what 2 Nephi 23-25 teaches.) I ALREADY have received grace through faith without performing a single work – it is because I already have received it that I do works which simply show the existence of faith. God’s grace is not conditioned on us doing works first. “4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” Romans 10:4

    “19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:19-28

  48. 48 JBR
    April 1, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Shem, you said:
    “But you are not merely stating facts, nor are you accurately portraying our reasoning.”

    On the contrary… but I am. What you reject is that nothing less than “yes man” response and you right it off as either “you don’t know ’cause your not one of us” … or …. you’re an ex-mormon and never really believed anyway”

    Shem said
    “Either way the reasoning of both you and Echo is the same as ours, it just has a different basis.”

    RESPONSE:
    Please make up your mind as to which …. either it ” is the same” or “has a different basis”

    —————————————————————————————————————

    About the Bible …………. So, what proves that the Bible is true?

    If you take the the spiritual aspect aside, archaeological \ linguistic \ geographical 3rd party evidence.

    Not so with the BoM. There is no archaeological \ linguistic \ geographical 3rd party evidence to support the existence of the places \ peoples \ language mentioned …….. none.

    It is virtually impossible by archaeological standards for a civilization to be erased without a trace…. no evidences of structures, language, geographical references from other sources.

    It is impossible to have a battle so large that nearly 1 million get killed and yet have absolutely no archaeological traces.

    Yet … to present that fact to you means little other than just more “anti” Mormonism rhetoric.

  49. April 1, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Shem said: “Since Christian doctrine is false doctrine than I guess I am doing fine. I am just glad that God is truly more merciful than you ever give him credit for.”

    Actually, God is more merciful than you and Mormonism give him credit for. In fact from a Christian perspective(not a LDS perspective), Mormonism is void of true biblical mercy all together. The kind of mercy that isn’t dependant on something YOU do first. And those who reject his true biblical mercy, reject mercy all together. Outer darkness is for those who reject his mercy.

  50. April 2, 2012 at 12:21 am

    Josh, Go with the first prophecy

  51. April 2, 2012 at 12:31 am

    Echo: “Mormonism is void of true biblical mercy all together.”

    Saying it over and over and over again will never make this statement true. And it’s becoming so clear that even those who you “think” you are converting to your lies about Mormonism can see through what you are doing. God is so merciful that even you will be forgiven for doing what you are doing because I truly believe you have no clue.

    Anyone watching conference today would have to be deaf and void of the Spirit to not see that the twisted, perverted truths you profess here are just lies.

    And don’t bother asking me to prove anything. There is so much proof from us in your archives that anyone who is “really” searching for truth can read it.

  52. April 2, 2012 at 1:02 am

    Kate, they are not lies about Mormonism. It is true. You are just blind to this fact (just like the Pharisees were blind to the fact) because you refuse to listen to anything we say before we even say it. Now I don’t mean that to sound rude, but instructive.

  53. 53 joshtried
    April 2, 2012 at 3:37 am

    Echo: WARNING, LONG READ
    Behold, verily I say unto you, for this cause I have sent you-that you might be obedient, and that your hearts might be prepared to bear testimony of the things which are to come; And also that you might be honored in laying the foundation, and in bearing record of the land upon which the Zion of God shall stand; (D&C 58:6-7)
    This revelation was given August 1, 1831, in Zion, Jackson County, Missouri, just over a year before D&C 84 was given to Joseph Smith (September 22 and 23, 1832). This shows the original intent of the Lord was to lay the foundation of Zion, not build it in its entirety. The question would then become, is there any indication of a time frame for these “things which are to come?” There most certainly is. A few verses later we read, “And now, verily, I say concerning the residue of the elders of my church, the time has not yet come, for many years, for them to receive their inheritance in this land.” (D&C 58:44) So the time for the Saints to inherit Zion was not in their day, and wouldn’t be for “many years.”
    There was also another term the Lord used to indicate that Zion would not be established during that time. “Therefore it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season, for the redemption of Zion.” (D&C 105:13) By using terms such as “the time has not yet come,” “many years,” and “wait a little season” it is obvious that Zion would not be established during that time, only that the foundation would be laid.No matter how loudly or often McKeever and Johnson, or any other critic, say Zion was to be established fully by the Saints during the Missouri period, that was not the design of the Lord, nor was that the instruction given to Joseph.
    How much land was bought? According to Lucien Carr in his history of Missouri, it was over 250,000 acres. [1] The Lord was very clear that there were going to be hardships. “For after much tribulation come the blessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be crowned with much glory; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand.” (D&C 58:4) And how severe would the tribulations be? “For Satan putteth it into their hearts to anger against you, and to the shedding of blood.” (D&C 63:28) This is exactly what happened in Missouri. Businesses were destroyed. Over two hundred houses were burned down or otherwise destroyed. Twelve hundred people were driven out of Independence, [2] with about fifteen thousand total being driven out of the region. Hundreds were murdered, some very brutally, [3] and this included children. That the people would be driven out of “Zion” temporarily is without question. “Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered.” (D&C 101:17) The foundation of Zion is in place, as prophesied; thus proving that Joseph Smith made a true prophecy in D&C 84.
    Zion was to be an “inheritance.” An inheritance is something that passes from one generation to the next. An inheritance is not something that you obtain immediately, but only at a future time:
    And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts. And this shall be my covenant with you, ye shall have it for the land of your inheritance, and for the inheritance of your children forever, while the earth shall stand, and ye shall possess it again in eternity, no more to pass away. (D&C 38:19-20)
    They that remain, and are pure in heart, SHALL RETURN, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion. (D&C 101:18)
    emember that the Lord said a year before section 84 was given that the land of Zion would be an inheritance, (D&C 38:{{{4}}}) and later said that only the foundation was to be laid at that time. (D&C 38:58) D&C 97 of the Doctrine and Covenants tells more about Zion and the conditions of its establishment.
    VERILY I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth. (D&C 97:1)
    Critics often ignore the first rule of interpretation: the fact that prophecies can be conditional. The principle of obedience is stressed by the Lord in D&C 97:18, but the promise is definite: “if zion do these things, she shall prosper.”
    In not reading the entire account of Zion in the Doctrine and Covenants, proper context cannot be understood. Obedience is the basis upon which all blessings are received. The Saints in Missouri were promised that they would prosper, become great, and not be moved out of their place if they would be obedient unto that which the Lord required of them in this revelation. Unfortunately, the Saints did not act as they should have, and as a result, were driven from Missouri. This is also what the Bible teaches us about people as they obey the Lord. (Jeremiah 26:{{{4}}},1 Chronicles 21:{{{4}}}) Parley P. Pratt, in his autobiography, writes:
    This Revelation was not complied with by the leaders of the Church in Missouri as a whole, notwithstanding many were humble and faithful; therefore, the threatened judgment was poured out to the uttermost, as the history of the five following years shows. [5]
    The disobedience of the Saints at the time resulted in the chastisement from the Lord: “And now I give unto you a word concerning Zion. Zion shall be redeemed, although she is chastened for a little season.” (D&C 100:13) This chastisement was the removal from Missouri until such time as the Saints deserve to inhabit Zion. The Lord did the same thing to peoples in the past as the Bible tells us.
    This letter clearly shows that Joseph Smith knew what was going to transpire concerning Missouri. He knew the people would suffer (“I have always expected that Zion would suffer some affliction,” and “after much tribulation cometh the blessing.”), he did not think Zion would be redeemed any time soon (“Zion, in the due time of the Lord, will be redeemed,” and “how many will be the days of purification, tribulation, and affliction, the Lord has kept hid from my eyes.”), he encouraged the Saints to remain within the law (“employ every lawful means to seek redress of your enemies.”), he knew legal redress would not be successful (“when the judge fail you,” “when the executive fail you,” “when the president fail you,” and “and all things else fail you.”), and he understood that the enemies of the Lord might not be destroyed until the judgement (“he will come with ten thousand of his saints,” and “all his adversaries shall be destroyed with the breath of his lips.”)

    FOR an entire look at the parts i have pulled out, please see:
    http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Saints_left_Missouri_before_temple_was_built

    What it boils down to is EVERYTHING concerning ZION is not in this one little spot in D&C. it is throughout, and all parts of this must be taken IN CONTEXT (caps for you context people out there)

  54. 54 shematwater
    April 2, 2012 at 5:48 am

    ECHO

    “The kind of mercy that isn’t dependant on something YOU do first.”

    You really don’t understand our doctrine, and you never will as you refuse to see it as it is, and instead are blinded to the truth of it by your preconceived ‘Christian Perspective.’

    Here is true mercy.
    God, regardless of what we do, has redeemed us from the effects of the Fall and so we will all be resurrected and made immortal.
    Because he loves all men he will extend mercy to all men, except those who come out in open defience of his law (sons of perdition). Because of this all men will eventually enter the glorious realms of Heaven and inherit a crown of glory, regardless of their works in this life (with the noted exception).
    However, God knows that because of our choices in this life certain glories may cause even greater pain to us than being cast out, and so, in his infinite mercy, he gives us only that which he knows we can handle and be comfortable with in eternity. He brings us as close to him as he can without causing us any pain from being in his presence.

    Consider a person who has been nearly starved for several for several weeks in a concentration camp. Their thin frame and hollow features make your heart ache, and in mercy you want to offer what help you can.
    Do you give them a steak to eat, thinking that they will love this great feast that they have missed out on? If you do you are likely to kill them as their bodies are no longer able to process the complexities of the proteins.
    No. In true mercy you give them only a little, such as broth, even though they may cry out for more, because you know that in so doing you will slowly nurse them back to health. However, even considering all your efforts there will be those who will never be able to eat steak again, because the damage to their bodies is too great.

    This is the mercy of our God. We all have lived in a spiritual concentration camp, one that was set up by Satan to keep us prisoners. God has promised us all that we will be liberated, but because some have allowed themselves to be more affected by the camp they will never be able to partake of the same spiritual feasts other will. God knows this, and in his mercy he will not force on any man that which his spirit can not digest.

    “you refuse to listen to anything we say before we even say it.”

    Well, you refuse to listen to anything we say before we even say it, so what is your complaint. I have noticed this to be a common plea made by you guys, but one you are never willing to actually entertain yourselves.

  55. 55 shematwater
    April 2, 2012 at 5:56 am

    JBR

    “On the contrary… but I am.”

    You are what? Just listing facts, or correctly portraying our reasoning.
    Of course you are actually doing neither, but which do you claim.

    “Please make up your mind as to which …. either it ” is the same” or “has a different basis”

    It is both, if you actually understand the nature of what reason is and how it is used. Just as two people can use cement but one makes a basement and the other makes a side-walk. In this way they both use the same material but have a different form to set it too.

    You have claimed in the past that our reasoning is basically this: The LDS church is true because Joseph Smith was a prophet. Joseph Smith was a prophet because the LDS church is true.
    You apply the same reasoning to the Bible: The Bible is true because it was written by prophets as the word of God. These men were propehts because the Bible is true.

    So, as I said, you use the same reasoning, but you have a different basis.

    “If you take the the spiritual aspect aside, archaeological \ linguistic \ geographical 3rd party evidence.”

    So, there is archeological evidence for the resurrection, the visions, and all the prophecies, and their fulfillment. There is linguistic evidence that the resurrection actually occured, that angels did apear to people, and that prophecy has been given and fulfilled.
    There are others outside the Bible (who lived at the same time) who have testified that the resurrection actually occured, that angels did indeed visit people, and that ancient prophecy was given and fulfilled.

    “Not so with the BoM.”

    More so than you would think. The difference is that the people of the Bible were not living in issolation from the rest of the world. There will never be any 3rd party accounts f the book of Mormon because there was never any 3rd party to witness the events. Just as there will never be any third party accounts of the visions recorded in the Bible (like that on Mt. Sinai) as there were no third party witnesses.
    As for structures, they riddle both North and South America, but since no one actually knows he pernuciations of the ancient American languages scholars will never be able to actually give evidence either way.

    “It is virtually impossible by archaeological standards for a civilization to be erased without a trace”

    There are traces everywhere. As to archeological standards, it is all guesswork anyway.
    An interesting thing that I watched on PBS today was a documentary on the Mayans. It stated that their civilization was actually rather complex and large, which contradicts the prevailing thoughts of the last few decades. The truly startling part was that the evidence didn’t even need to be dug up for the most part. It was just sitting there in the jungles of the Yucatan peninsula, and yet it was not discovered until recently.

    Concerning archeology in the United States, there are actually hundreds of sites that have never been studied in this way. The reason being that they are privately owned, and the law states that no such archeological site can be privately owned. So, once any artifact is uncovered the land is possessed by the federal government, with the owner getting minimum prices as compensation. The foundation to the largest pyramid ever to exist is privately owned in Missouri, along the Mississippe river, and has never been studied because the owner does not want to loose the land.

  56. 56 shematwater
    April 2, 2012 at 6:16 am

    DAVID

    I notice that you again prefer to dodge the issue rather than actually answer the questions. So, unless you are willing to answer what your reaction would be to discovering more epistles and writings of the early apostles teaching Baptism for the Dead I don’t think that any further conversation with you on the subject is useful.

    “You want to do works to receive the “grace” (as defined by the LDS church) which follows works (I know LDS members on this blog deny this but this is clearly what 2 Nephi 23-25 teaches.)”

    I notice you like to try and tell us our doctrine, assuming the right and ability to teach us not only what we believe, but what our scriptures teach. I realize that you are forced to believe this is what it teaches, as anything else would prove you wrong concerning our doctrine. I honestly find it a little sad that you have to fabricate doctrine and give it to others in order to maintain your opinion of them.

    TO THE READERS

    Regarding the prophecy of D&C 84: 1-5. Josh has posted a good discussion on the nature and time of Zion. I would like to give another, simpler explanation. Here are the verses in question.

    “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
    Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
    Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
    Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
    For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.”

    Let us look at these verses.
    Verse one simply tells what we are about to read.
    Verse two tells us the topic that the revelation is going to discuss. In this case the Lord’s church that he established in the last days. It also tells us what the church was established for: Restoring the Lord’s people and Gathering the Saints to New Jeruselem.
    Verse three describes where this city will be built up, and states that Joseph Smith and others have prepared the place for that purpose.
    Verse four then tells us how the city will be built up, and includes a command (not a prophecy) to those of that day to build the designated temple.
    Verse five then prophecies that a temple would be built during the current generation, which would be filled with the glory of the Lord.

    So, the prophecy is not that the temple would be built in New Jeruselem, but that a temple would be built in that generation. It was only a few years later that the Kirtland Temple was dedicated and the glory of the Lord filled it, as we see prophecied here. A few years later the Nauvoo temple was built and dedicated. Before that generation had passed away they had started a number of temples in Utah, and I believe a few were even finished.

    The rest of these verses fit nicely in with what Josh posted, so I will end it here for now.

  57. April 2, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Josh, give me some time to do some reading in the Doctrine and Covenants.

  58. April 2, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Shem

    “I honestly find it a little sad that you have to fabricate doctrine and give it to others in order to maintain your opinion of them.”

    What is sad Shem is that repeatedly misrepresent what your doctrine actually states.
    2 Nephi 23-25 says what it says. You can deny that “after” means “after” but it does mean “after”.

    “it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do.”

    “So, unless you are willing to answer what your reaction would be to discovering more epistles and writings of the early apostles teaching Baptism for the Dead I don’t think that any further conversation with you on the subject is useful.”

    I have answered your question. You chose not to listen. But here it is again:

    God is in control of HIs Word. Let me break that down further that that you can understand. God gave us everythying we need in the Bible. YOu keep wanting to validate LDS practrices on the possibilitly that perhaps there is some other writing out there that justifiies it. Faith is not based on hypotheticals and additional writings, it is created by the Holy Spirit through HIs Word which is the BIble which unfortunately for you don’t find worthy of your trust.

  59. April 2, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Shem,

    So what is it exactly that you believe I refuse to listen to?

  60. 60 Kent
    April 2, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Shem, I know you say that I keep using the same old arguments but in fact I keep stating the same true gospel that we are saved, have eternal life, because of our faith in Jesus Christ and not in keeping laws and ordianances. So yes, even something you consider so beaufiful and sacred, the temple and all its oridannces and rituals, is not needed.

    So if it is at all about following laws and ordinances, then people have rejected the true gospel of Jesus dying on the cross to save sinners, who cannot ever save themselves, and rising again on the third day

    It is either faith or it is works, not both and saved does mean eternal life minus becoming gods ourselves as people haven’t truly repented if they truly believe they can ever become gods themselves.

    We are saved (have eternal life) by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

    Galatians 2:16
    knowing that A MAN IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW BUT BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW NO FLESH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

    We have to keep the whole law our entire lives if it is at all about following laws and ordinances

    James 2:10
    10 FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET STUMBLE IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL.

    We only have this lifetime as there is no chance in the afterlife to get it right.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    Saved=eternal life=everlasting life.

    1 John 5:11-13
    11 And this is the testimony: THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    John 3:14-16
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

  61. 61 JBR
    April 2, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Shem said:
    “The difference is that the people of the Bible were not living in issolation from the rest of the world. There will never be any 3rd party accounts of the book of Mormon because there was never any 3rd party to witness the events.”

    Talk about wanton playing people to be totally naive or fools.

    It is documented of the many attempts by Mormon archaeologists who wanted so desperatly to find the geographical locations mentioned in the BoM… only to find nothing.

    So what you have is one of two conclusions:

    1… alter the real world settings (which you are doing)
    2… alter the text of the BoM

    The obvious reason the LDS has no “offical” stance on the geographical events in the BoM is because the events never took place anywhere. One simply does have a “great nation” like the Nephites who built great cities\ used machinery being nearly wiped out by a great army. To have such a large event \ peoples taking place is impossible to leave no archaeological traces.

    Unlike the Bible.. when it talks about people that no longer exist, there still is archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences.

  62. 62 JBR
    April 2, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Unlike the Bible.. when it talks about people that no longer exist, there still is archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences…..evidences that collaborate that such a people ever existed.

    But true to form, you deliberatly skew the point. You know that the Canaanites and Philistines are an extinct groups of people mentioned in the Bible. Yet there still is archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences of their existance.

    The fact there is no archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences of the Nephites and the Lamanites means that the accounts of them are fictional.

  63. 63 Kent
    April 2, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    JBR, also, the one thing that could show that, for example, the Lamainites existed would be DNA evidence from even one American Indian tribe that shows they are related to the Hebrews but there isn’t any.

    Ironic that in the introduction to the Book of Mormon in the 1981 edition it states, “After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.” But it was changed in the 2006 edition to, “the Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians.”

    So the Mormon Church backed off saying the Lamanites are the principal ancestors to they are among their ancestors but that doesn’t change the fact that there are no American Indians that have even traces of Hebrew origins in their DNA.direct proof that the Lamanites never existed.

    Shem, why do I believe that people haven’t truly repented if they believe they can become gods? It is because He is God and we are not and we haven’t submitted to to his righteousness and we are attempting to establish our own righteousness unless we admit this to Him and ourselves.

    Mormons who are questioning what your church teaches, as their facts just don’t add up on the Lamanites and other issues, take the time to read the following passages from Romans 10 and have faith and take them to heart. Saved=Eternal Life but without godhood. These passages are for everyone “for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

    Romans 10:1-13

    Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

  64. 64 shematwater
    April 2, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    DAVID

    “I have answered your question. You chose not to listen.”

    I saw your answer, and I understood it. To sum it up, you refuse to even consider the possibility of this being true. However, if it were true it wouldn’t matter because what is in the Bible is sufficient, so nothing else that Paul wrote will ever have any bearing on what you believe.
    So, can we take his to mean that if the doctrine was proven to be taught by the early apostles as a required ordinance you would dismiss it as an anomoly, as it is not contained in the scriptures you now have?

    “2 Nephi 23-25 says what it says. You can deny that “after” means “after” but it does mean “after”.

    I deny nothing, I simply point out that the context and meaning does not place Grace after works. What it does do is place salvation (meaning eternal life, exaltation, and godhood) after works, both of which are made possible through the grace of God.
    To give a clearer wording of the verse: We are saved after all we can do, and this by the Grace of God.

    JBR

    “The fact there is no archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences of the Nephites and the Lamanites means that the accounts of them are fictional.”

    Wrong. It means that with our current understanding and available resources we have nothing to prove them true. This is very different. There are new discoveries being made every year in archeology. There was a time when people did not believe that any great Civilization existed in India prior to Aryans arrival, but it has been since proven that such civilizations did exist. The size and complexity of the Mayan nations was unknown until recently.
    Lack of evidence is not proof.

    “when it talks about people that no longer exist, there still is archaeological \ geographical and linguistic evidences.”

    So, you have this evidence to prove the existence of those thatlived before the flood, do you? Show my the archeological evidence for this time period of the Bible. What of the geographical evidence, or the linguistic evidence?
    I know the evidence for the various people that lived from the time of Moses and unward. However, the evidence for those before Moses is nearly non-existant, and is non-existant for those before the flood. So, by your reasoning these are all fictional accounts (Adam didn’t really exist).

    Speaking of actually evidence of the Book of Mormon, as I said, it is abundant to anyone who actually has eyes and are willing to see. The problem is that you are demanding that someone find a stone inscribed “Here lies Nephi” or a sign saying “Zarehemla 20 miles.” The names are not going to be found for one very simple reason. The Book of Mormon gives the names only in their English form, and since there is no one alive who actually knows how the languages of ancient America were pernounced, there is no way to compare the English with the original.

    However, the evidence of great civilizations that understood machinery and had complex societies and sciences is there for anyone to see.

    KENT

    “Ironic that in the introduction to the Book of Mormon in the 1981 edition…But it was changed in the 2006 edition to, “the Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians.”

    Ironic that this introduction was never considered scripture, and that the official position of the church prior to 1981 was that the Lamanites were among the ancestors of the American Indians, so that fixing an error in an uninspired introduction makes perfect sense.
    I actually gave a very nice explanation for this, with all the references, in a previous post.
    This is common, though. If something you say is proved wrong you wait a little while and then repost it, apparently having forgotten the evidence previously provided.

    ECHO

    So what is it exactly that you believe I refuse to listen to?

  65. 65 JBR
    April 2, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Kent,
    I guess Shem and the other apologists will just shrug it off as more “anti-Mormon” rhetoric …. or will tell us that since we’re not “one of us” our reading comprehension level just isn’t as good as it should be. No doubt it will be just another chalk it up to anomoly excuse.

    It just goes to show that it’s not facts anymore … but a deliberate refusal to acknowledge that the BoM accounts of events, cities and great civilizations are fictional.

    And yet the BoM is supposed to be more accurate than the Bible …. yea, right…..

  66. 66 Kent
    April 3, 2012 at 2:54 am

    I said, “Ironic that in the introduction to the Book of Mormon in the 1981 edition…But it was changed in the 2006 edition to, “the Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians.”

    Shem said, “Ironic that this introduction was never considered scripture, and that the official position of the church prior to 1981 was that the Lamanites were among the ancestors of the American Indians, so that fixing an error in an uninspired introduction makes perfect sense.
    I actually gave a very nice explanation for this, with all the references, in a previous post.
    This is common, though. If something you say is proved wrong you wait a little while and then repost it, apparently having forgotten the evidence previously provided.”

    I wasn’t offering the intro to the Book of Mormon as proof that the Lamanites didn’t exist, but that it is ironic that the intro to the B of M would even mention that there is any connection to the Hebrews at all and that the 1981 version says the Lamanites are the principle ancestors of the American Indians but the 2006 one only says they are among their ancestors. So you got that wrong

    But the fact is, no matter what the intro to the B of M says, is that none of the American Indians show DNA evidence from the Hebrews or any connection to the Middle East whatsoever. Name one tribe that shows any DNA connection to the middle east, just one.

    The answer that you gave regarding the intro to the B of M was regarding that the earlier edition said the Bible as well as the B of M contained the fullness of the gospel and the newest intro says the B of M has the fullness of the gospel but it doesn’t say the Bible has the fullness of the gospel. So this is the first time we are discussing that the American Indians have a DNA connection to the Hebrews or not. which by the way, there is no connection.

  67. 67 Kent
    April 3, 2012 at 5:12 am

    The DNA evidence shows that American Indians historically are from Asia, not the Middle East, strong evidence that the Lamanites never existed and that the stories in the Book of Mormon are fiction. Don’t take my word for it so search on your own.

  68. 68 shematwater
    April 3, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    KENT

    My comment had absolutely nothing to do with DNA. You commented on a change in the introduction to the Book of Mormon, saying “So the Mormon Church backed off saying the Lamanites are the principal ancestors to they are among their ancestors.” This was a comment made completely separate from that concerning DNA, as you separated the two with a “but.”
    So, I got nothing wrong. You tried to show a change in the position the church has taken on this issue, and I pointed out that there was no change, but that an error had appeared in a single document.

    I personally have no desire to discuss DNA and all that. God has the power to alter a persons genetic make-up if he so chooses, so when it comes to matters of faith I am perfectly willing to state that I do not trust science over God.

  69. 69 joshtried
    April 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Kent, american indians includes south america. There are many tribes that have had zero contact with the outside world. While i not saying they are this missing link, i am saying not EVERY tribe has been evaluated. There is archaeological evidence that someone was in america before the indians that came across at alaska.

  70. April 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Shem

    “So, can we take his to mean that if the doctrine was proven to be taught by the early apostles as a required ordinance you would dismiss it as an anomoly, as it is not contained in the scriptures you now have?”

    If that happened it would be far worse than an anomally! PAY CLOSE ATTENTION HERE SHEM – PLEASE HERE THIS – If letters of Paul or ANY OTHER apostles were to be “discovered” and in those letters they contained “required ordinance” they WOULD BE FALSE DOCTRINE!! How can I say that? Because you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS compare what ANYONE teaches against the Bible. For Paul and the apostles it is the gospel that was preached by them which were ALL consistent with each other. The Bereans did that even when it was Paul that was preaching to them and they were described as “noble” because of that practice. Acts 17:11. “11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

    You may be thinking to yourself, but this would/could be scripture Paul wrote at the time? Paul even addressed that exact possibility and instructs us how to view it. He says:

    ” 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8But though WE, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we HAVE PREACHED unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ” Galatains 1:6-9

    The gospel Paul preached was clear. So what does this mean? It means that even if Paul himself were to teach a different gospel other than the one he was preaching even He would say it was false and should not be followed, and that there should be dire consequences to him for preaching it. Paul preached Christ crucified “23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” 1 Coriinthians 23-24. Paul preached that we are saved by God’s free grace through faith and not by obedience to the law in Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians.

    God is now, always has been, and ever will be in control of His Word. He has revealed His Word before Christ and, at the proper time, after Christ finished His redemptive work for us. You may want to believe there is some other writing out there hidden under a rock or something but God has given us exaclty what we need in His Word. Take a close look at Paul’s greeting to Titus “1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, ” Titus 1:1-3.

    It is sin that seperates us from God. Jesus restored our relationship with God making it perfect as though we kept all the commandments – His righteousness is credited to us totally by believing that Jesus did it all on our behalf. There are no “new relevations” about what we must do to contribute to our own perfection to be with Heavenly Father. How do I know that? Because Jesus said “it is finished.” He did what he came to do – to save sinners, he paid the penalty for every sin. Think about that – God himself, who can’t be in presence of sin, made His own Son to be sin for us. See 2 Cor. 5:21. The magnitude of that all suffiicient sacrifice is something we can’t even comprehend. The love that it took for the Father to offer His own Son to endure that, and Jesus being willing to leave heaven, come down to earth in complete humility, and to endure scorn and pain of a torturious cross for us when not one of us deserved to be spared- it humbles us, and makes us realize and hopefully fully appreciate what a awesome and loving God we have. He would never not tell us everything we need in His Word. That’s why I know I can trust God. He says Jesus is with us now, and so He is, He gave us His Word and told us that it is true, unperishable and enduring and so it is. Jesus fulfilled the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 as Hebrews 10:1-18 explains very well. ANY gospel that doesn’t accept the full redemptive work of Jesus’ perfect life, suffering, death and resurrection as being everything necessary to make us perfect before God by being clothed with the righteous of Christ, is not the true gospel of Jesus. Full redemptive work means that by faith in Christ alone we are made perfect to have eternal life with the Heavenly Father and NOT on account of ANYTHING WE have done or ever could do.

  71. 71 Kent
    April 3, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Shem said, “Ironic that this introduction was never considered scripture, and that the official position of the church prior to 1981 was that the Lamanites were among the ancestors of the American Indians, so that fixing an error in an uninspired introduction makes perfect sense.”

    Shem, you did get this wrong as the introduction to the Book of Mormon 1981 edition says below:

    “After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and THEY ARE THE PRINCIPAL ANCESTORS OF THE AMERICAN INDIANS.”

    While the introduction to the 2006 edition to the Book of Mormon was changed below to:

    “After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and THEY ARE AMONG THE ANCESTORS OF THE AMERICAN INDIANS.”

    So wouldn’t that change the official policy of the Mormon Church to “They are among the ancestors of the American Indians” from “they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians?”

    Shem the argument you are giving about God changing the DNA is just repeating what Mormon Church apologists say and it fits in with the fact that when Mormons give their testimony that they start their testimonies with they beiieve the church is true instead of saying that Jesus is Lord, which the Bible says is how Christians testify of their faith. So by having faith in your church, you have faith that what your leaders say is true, so by faith you repeated what they said about God changing the DNA of the American Indians.

    I remember you saying, when we were talking about who God and who Jesus is, that you made the comment about not wanting to bother the elders with such questions which shows that you have faith in what they say instead of fining out for yourself. I need to find what you said so I can quote you accurately on this though.

    Below is how we give our testimony of our faith in Christ notice it doesn’t say a church is true so our faith is not in a church but it is in Christ, that is a very important destinction.

    Romans 10:9

    9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

  72. 72 shematwater
    April 3, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    DAVID

    “If letters of Paul or ANY OTHER apostles were to be “discovered” and in those letters they contained “required ordinance” they WOULD BE FALSE DOCTRINE”

    Okay. So a follow up question. Would the discovery that Paul, or Peter, or John taught such a “false doctrine” make them a false prophet?

    KENT

    “you did get this wrong”

    I got nothing wrong. The introduction to the Book of Mormon was first printed in the 1981 edition. It was not directly inspired, and is not considered to be part of the scripture.

    The late Elder Richard L. Evans, a member of the church’s Quorum of the Twelve from 1953 to 1971, described the Book of Mormon as “part of a record both sacred and secular of prophets and people, who (with supplementary groups), were among the ancestors of the American Indians.” The description — approved by the church’s First Presidency — was printed in a book titled “Religions of America,” by Leo Rosten, which was first published in London in 1957 and subsequently reprinted in 1963 and 1975, Sorensen said.
    (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695226008/Debate-renewed-with-change-in-Book-of-Mormon-introduction.html)

    So, the approved position of the church in 1957, 1963, and 1975 was that the Lamanites were among the ancestors of the American Indians. It was not until the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon that we read “principle ancestors” which error was changed at the specific request of the church for the 2006 Doubleday edition.
    I actually posted all this on a previous thread, which you seem to have conveniently forgotten.

    I don’t really care about the DNA our what you think my beliefs or why I believe them. You are wrong when you say the church has changed its position on the ancestry of the American Indian.

  73. April 4, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Shem

    “Okay. So a follow up question. Would the discovery that Paul, or Peter, or John taught such a “false doctrine” make them a false prophet?”

    Paul, Peter and John were all handpicked apostles of Jesus. Jesus made no mistakes in choosing His Apostles and His Word tells us, by name, who they are. None of them would ever have preached a false doctrine because they were not speaking for themselves, so my answer is that a “discovery” that that they taught such a false doctrine would be a complete fraud.

    “7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.” 1 Timothy 2:7

    “1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,” Romans 9:1

    “31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.” 2 Cor. 11:31.

    To even pose that “what if” question about Paul, Peter and John or any of Christ’s handpicked apostles shows that you actually conceive this as a possibility. It testifies to how Mormomism has diminished Christ’s supreme power over Heaven and Earth and His love for us in your own heart and mind. I read your question and see a skeptic of Christ’s power and His Word.

  74. April 4, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Josh said: “Unfortunately, the Saints did not act as they should have, and as a result, were driven from Missouri.”

    So the people at the time were in apostasy?

  75. 75 shematwater
    April 4, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    DAVID

    Now who is blindly following.

    ECHO

    “So the people at the time were in apostasy?”

    Some were, even including those called to lead the church. It was at this time that Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of the twelve apostles left the church. W. W. Phelps also left, along with a number of others. There was dissension in the membership.
    However, it was not that common. No. Most of the people were not in apostasy, but were just not doing what they should.

  76. April 4, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Shem

    “Now who is blindly following.”

    The one who closes his eyes to the truth.

    “17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” John 17:17

  77. April 4, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    David:

    And His word comes through His prophets as well as scripture. You are the one who has closed your eyes…and closed God’s mouth.

  78. April 4, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Shem said: “It was at this time that Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of the twelve apostles left the church. W. W. Phelps also left, along with a number of others.”

    LDS ORG says…

    “During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets.”

  79. April 4, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Dave said: “The one who closes his eyes to the truth.

    “17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” John 17:17”

    That’s very true. Mormonism states that the Bible has errors, In other words…The Bible, is not the word of truth.

    Mormonism states that some truths are missing etc. In other words…The Bible, is not the word of truth. (Half truth by definition is deception)

    Mormonism states that the living prophets are more important to them than the dead prophets. In other words…The Bible, is not the word of truth.

    1 Thess 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

    The Mormon Prophet Brigham Young stated that Adam was God and that God told him that. Yet even though Mormons claim that everything their prophets say are scripture, they don’t believe that word of scripture either.

    Mormons are in a state of apostasy.

  80. 80 Kent
    April 5, 2012 at 3:47 am

    I was told by a Mormon missionary one time that he would take the word of a living prophet over scripture any day.

    Did he mean that what the living prophet says is more important to Mormons than the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine of Covenants?

    Well, in addition to rejecting Mormon scripture, I reject anything the living prophet says!

    All I need is the Bible anyway.

    Guess what? Nothing is going to change my status as having eternal life in the mansions where God is one bit.

  81. 81 shematwater
    April 5, 2012 at 6:03 am

    “The Bible, is not the word of truth.”

    Let me amend this: The Bible is the word of truth, and is the formost book of scripture in existence. However, because i has been through the hands of countless uninspired men, and even a few evil ones, the truth that it does have is obscured and required the spirit of discernment given by God to understand.

    In other words, the Bible by itself is no longer sufficient to establish all true doctrine, and so we need the direct guidance of God to do so.

    DAVID

    “The one who closes his eyes to the truth.”

    This is not what it means to blindly follow. One can blindly follow the truth. To blindly follow is simply to follow regardless of evidence for or against what you are following. Thus, if a person is following the truth, but does not actually know that it is the truth they are blindly following it.

    You are blindly following the Bible, regardless of anything that could possibly prove you wrong. You have stated that it doen’t matter what proof is presented, anything that shows the early apostles taught something you don’t agree with has to be a fraud. This is blindly following.

    Now, I personally have no problem with blindly following, to some extent. Doing so is required for some things. I only mention it because the non-LDS have frequently accused the LDS of blindly following our leaders. So I pointed out that you do the same thing in regards to the Bible.
    (I can’t remember if you personally made this claim, and so this remark may not have been completely accurate being addressed to you. Sorry.)

  82. April 5, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Kate

    “And His word comes through His prophets as well as scripture. You are the one who has closed your eyes…and closed God’s mouth.”

    He has given us His Word in the Bible. False prophets don’t open God’s mouth. God tells us to beware of false prophets.

    “13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

    This fits the LDS church to a T and you refuse to see it. Worse yet, you refuse to even consider it. Its YOUR soul Kate and Satan wants it. Here the Bible tells you what to watch out for and you decide to embrace what it says to stay away from. The sooner you realize who you are actually following the sooner you will hear the truth.

  83. April 5, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    David, I know who I follow. I follow Jesus Christ, for He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is only by Him that I can come back to my Father in Heaven. The thing you guys seem to forget is that He gave us the Holy Ghost to teach us and bring to our minds the Truth.
    John 14: 12-21
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    15 ¶If ye alove me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    You see, David, I believe Jesus when he says this. And because of that faith, I understand deeply the things I read. No, I am not deceived. I guess if you haven’t really experienced Truth, you would not understand what I mean.

  84. April 5, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Shem, the devil never comes out and says: “The Bible, is not the word of truth”, instead he masquerades as an angel of God and of light and sets himself up in God’s church pretending to serve God while all the while deceiving the people there. So he (not you) comes to us with these words: “the Bible by itself is no longer sufficient to establish all true doctrine, and so we need the direct guidance of God to do so.” but it really means this: “”The Bible, is not the word of truth”. Then the devil hires a false prophet to proclaim the devil’s doctrine but all the while the devil’s doctrine is presented to you as the direct guidance of God. The Devil even goes one step further by deceiving you into thinking God will speak to you, guide you and give you revelations apart from God’s word.

    The very first temptation in the history of temptation is THEE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT temptation that the devil knows we must succumb to in order for the devil to be able to deceive us. In Genesis the devil tempted Eve with: “Did God *REALLY* say…?” That is the temptation to doubt God’s word, to doubt what he really said, and it is no different a temptation than: “the Bible by itself is no longer sufficient to establish all true doctrine, and so we need the direct guidance of God to do so.” And falling for that temptation ended with the spiritual and physical death of both Adam and Eve and the whole human race. You and I Shem have inherited that blind sinful tendency of Adam and Eve to, through our sinful human nature, doubt the validity of God’s word, which is why we fall so easily and naturally into that temptation. Thanks to God, I have escaped it now, but you are still caught in it.

    The devil knows that we can’t be deceived when we trust God’s word. He knows he can’t introduce his soul destroying doctrine when we trust in God’s word. So he says: “the Bible by itself is no longer sufficient to establish all true doctrine, and so we need the direct guidance of God to do so.” Now that the devil has laid that foundation, the devil himself can become the “God” who guides us while he deceptively introduces his false doctrines through his false prophets and those who have fallen prey to his temptation.

  85. April 5, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    Kate

    “David, I know who I follow. I follow Jesus Christ,”

    No you don’t. The Jesus of the Bible:

    1. is not a spirit child of a God the Father who was ever a man,
    2 is not a brother of Satan,
    3. does not expect us to earn our way to be with the Heavenly Father,
    4. did everything for us to give us eternal life with the Father without expecting or wanting to be repaid.
    5. Says we must believe in Him to be saved.
    6. Built His chruch with Himself as the chief cornerstone which the gates of Hell would never overcome.
    7. Said His Word would never pass away ; and

    The Jesus of the BIble is ” I am,” as the Father is “I am,” and as the Holy Spirit is “I am.”

    You have no idea who you are following because you are following a lie. You only think you are following Jesus because you have been deceived by a false prophet, who denies the truth of the BIble, and who has succeeded in blinding you to the truth.

  86. April 5, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Think what you want David. Everything you said just now is interpreted by what you want to believe. It can also be interpreted by what I believe. I am not deceived because it’s by the fruits we shall know. What more can I say. The fruits here are you guys trying to destroy others faith in Jesus Christ…look who is being deceived and following Satan? You are getting upset because it is hitting you to the core. It is making you doubt even yourself. That is why you, Kent, JBR, Echo, etc…are grasping at any anti stuff you can grab at to make yourselves feel better.

  87. April 5, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    It has gotten to the point here where there is no more need for debate. You don’t really want to know what we believe and the truths we profess in their proper context. You don’t want to know because if you actually listened to us, it would all make sense and the spirit would witness to you of the truth of it. But you will not allow yourself to let the Spirit work in you and testify truth, so you quickly repeat the untruths over and over and over again.

  88. April 5, 2012 at 10:37 pm

    Kate

    “That is why you, Kent, JBR, Echo, etc…are grasping at any anti stuff you can grab at to make yourselves feel better.”

    To you Bible scripture is “anti stuff.”

    Your “spirit” has convinced you that you can’t trust the Bible and has lied to you. Jesus, whom you say you believe, said His word will never pass away, but you don’t trust what He says in the gospels as I have alraedy pointed out in your disbeliefs numbers 1 – 4 listed on the earlier posts.

  89. April 5, 2012 at 10:41 pm

    Know, the Holy Ghost (which is the Spirit I speak of) witnesses to me of truth. And there you go again, telling lies…I trust the Bible very much. I just know that God did not close off His words.

  90. April 5, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    Kate

    Kate’s disbelief #3 –

    Jesus said: “6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

    You believe – “If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon

    So who’s Spirit do you think is being truthfull here?

  91. April 6, 2012 at 12:19 am

    Not going to address your quote mining. It gets old when things are taken out of context. Provide the reader the whole lesson in which that quote was taken. The funny thing is is that you haven’t found that in that manual, you have only found it in anti-mormon literature. It really isn’t worth debating with you David. You have your lying blinders on. You lie every time you tell me what I believe…shame on you.

  92. April 6, 2012 at 12:36 am

    Kate

    “The funny thing is is that you haven’t found that in that manual, you have only found it in anti-mormon literature.”

    Its there. You can choose to evade the truth Kate but it won’t change it.

  93. 93 joshtried
    April 6, 2012 at 2:18 am

    David:
    Please describe to me who Satan is. As fully detailed account of this as is possible is really wanted on my end. Perhaps you have missed my previous requests. In any event, I would really like to know who/ what you believe Satan to be. Thanks

  94. April 6, 2012 at 3:00 am

    JOsh

    Satan is the fallen angel who led a rebellion against God and lost and was cast out of heaven and hurled down to earth along with the other fallen angels, now demons, who followed him. See Revelations 12. He is pure evil and leads the world astray. He is the father of lies and a murderer. He can appear as an “angel of light.” BTW: This quote is from Jesus describing the devil and the children of the devil (this is NIV 1984 because it reads better, use KJV if you like):

    “42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.””
    John 8:42-47.

    He does not want you to trust the Bible and has tempted people in the past by getting them to question what God says, and with the claim that they too can be like gods. He uses false prophets to spread his lies and He wants to destroy your faith in the full, complete and free forgiveness of sins Jesus won for you on the cross.

  95. 95 joshtried
    April 6, 2012 at 5:46 am

    David:
    what did Satan rebel against?
    How many other fallen angels were there?

    I understand he is the father of lies, i understand he can appear as an angel of light. You accuse LDS of leading people astray with our “Satan Story” but all we did was answer the 2 questions I just asked you. Our story has little else different from you. In order for him to lead a rebellion, he was probably one of the “higher ranked” angels. Do you think any who had been in God’s presence would randomly follow so single celled imbecile? It makes much more sense that he was well known and held a position of power.

    Did God create Satan? If so, then YES he and Jesus are brothers. Yes you and I and Satan are all brothers. We were all created by the same supreme creator. Do we hold the same position in Heaven. NO. I am not debating who among us two is better, but one of us will be in whatever way.

    In your quote, Jesus is also separating himself from God, but i am willing to bet you refuse to see this either.
    I HAVE NOT COME ON MY OWN, BUT HE SENT ME.
    Now, If Jesus is God, how did he not come on his own? Would this statement make Jesus a Liar?

    Next:
    ARE WE like gods? If so, in what ways?
    Was Satan telling the truth when he said we would know good from evil? Does God know good from evil? are we like God, if in absolutely no other way, than in this way of knowing good from evil?

    I have FAITH in Christ’s forgiveness of my sins. Faith without works is dead.

  96. 96 shematwater
    April 6, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    ECHO

    The devil is a very crafty guy, who will tell anyone what they want to here in order to deceive them. So, he tells the Hindus that the Bible is completely unnecessary. He tells the Jews to accept the Old Testament but reject the New. He tells Christians that there is no chance of mistranslation in the Bible, and that God will never speak to men again. He frequently tells LDS to ignore more recent revelation in favor or previous revelation, or the other way around; which ever is more likely to work for that individual.
    To limit him to one strategy or tactic is be ignorant of his true power and cunning, and to leave yourself open for deception.

    “deceiving you into thinking God will speak to you, guide you and give you revelations apart from God’s word.”

    It is not Satan that told me to pray, and gave the promise that if I ask I will receive. This command and promise came from Christ himself. So why would you say that seeking such promised guidance is inspired by the devil?

    “it is no different a temptation than”

    I specifically said it was not sufficient for all truth. This means that it still contains truth; it is still scripture and the word of God spoken in truth. However, there is truth out there that was once in the Bible, but no longer is. The Bible cannot be used to declare a truth that it does not contain.
    You will also notice that I pointed out that if one has the Spirit of Discernment given to them by God they are able to comprehend all the truths in the Bible. It is when we try to reach such an understanding on our own that we fail to grasp the true meaning of God’s word.

    DAVID

    No one has ever questioned that the quotes you give exist. We only question whether you have read them in context or are just borrowing what others have tried to say.
    So, the question is, have you read the lesson that contains this quote, in its entirety? If you haven’t that posting it means very little.

    Oh, and please stop trying to tell us what we do and do not believe, or what we trust and don’t trust. You don’t know what we believe, as you have demonstrated many times.

    For the record, I have always preferred the Bible to any other scripture. Isaiah in particular, as well as Revelation have been my favorite books for many years. In all my study of LDS doctrine I have concluded that the Bible is held in the greatest place of honor, with all the others being given for the express purpose to prove the Bible is true. It is the first and foremost record of God’s word, and deserves all the respect it is due.

    Speaking of Joseph Smith and all that:
    Matthew 19: 28
    “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

    So, what is the purpose of this judgment?

  97. April 7, 2012 at 3:38 am

    Josh

    “all we did was answer the 2 questions I . . .Our story has little else different from you.”

    No Josh there is a lot of difference. Satan is NOT a son of God. He is a created angel who fell away and rebelled agaisn’t God. He did not come up with any plan of salvation. He is not a brother to Jesus or to you or to me.

    “Did God create Satan? If so, then YES he and Jesus are brothers.”

    God created all things that doesn’t make all created things brothers. Heavenly Father did not create Jesus or the Holy Spirit. They have always been and always will be from everlasting to everlasting. The idea that Heavenly Father created or is the spirit parent of Jesus is a lie. It denies the nature of who Jesus truley is “I am” as the Father is “I am” and as the Spirit is “I am.”

    “I HAVE NOT COME ON MY OWN, BUT HE SENT ME.
    Now, If Jesus is God, how did he not come on his own? Would this statement make Jesus a Liar?”

    Certainly Not! He is simply saying He came to do His Father’s will. Which is exactly what is said in John 3:16 “16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
    But, Jesus, being one with the Father, (“30 I and my Father are one.” John 10:30) willingly came down from Heaven on His own accord to give up His life to save us. “17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18
    Jesus loves you that much Josh. He IS GOD and HE DID COME DOWN WILLINGLY ON HIS OWN ACCORD to SAVE YOU because it was the will of the Father. He was ALWAYS in control Josh. Jesus’ greatest display of power (this is my opinion) , was His humility, facing scorn, suffering, ridicule , being despised, and being tortured, and suffering death, all the while knowing what he was about to face, being God Himself who can’t be in the presence of sin, became sin for us and endured separation from the Father (Hell) and He could have stopped it at any time. Through all the anguish, all the taunts, all the betrayal, all the punches, the spitting, the mocking, the lashes, being struck in head while wearing a crown of thorns, carrying the instrument of torture He would suffer on, having nails driven through His wrists feeling every time the hammer pounded nails into His flesh, being raised up on the cross, being taunted to “Come down”, “Save yourself,” through the crushing weight on His lungs from the cross, through seeing His mother in anguish below Him, Jesus STAYED ON THAT CROSS ON HIS OWN ACCORD and HE Gave up HIs own life not before He Proclaimed “IT IS FINISHED ” – THAT Josh is power and love we simply cannot comprehend. THAT is the POWER AND LOVE OF GOD

  98. April 7, 2012 at 4:06 am

    Shem

    “No one has ever questioned that the quotes you give exist. We only question whether you have read them in context or are just borrowing what others have tried to say.”

    The way you show a statement is taken out of context is to show what was before or after, or otherwise removed from the quote that gives the false impression. Instead of throwing around the accusation that I have taken something out of context, show me what it is about what was quoted or omitted from the person quoted so that we can see what you claim to be taken out of context.

    “For the record, I have always preferred the Bible to any other scripture. Isaiah in particular, as well as Revelation have been my favorite books for many years.”

    That is surprising because in my discussions with you dispute much of what Isaiah says: This verse comes to mind for example: “8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not “I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any” Isaiah 44:8

    You dispute the fact that this really means there can be no other gods.

    “Speaking of Joseph Smith and all that:”

    The verse you quote from Matthew has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I will say this of your reliance on Joseph Smith. You do not hold your own LDS doctrine up to the same scrutiny, skepticism, and evaluation that you put the Bible through and for no other reason than taking as gospel the testimony of one man as true. You can, if you chose, look at the original text of old and new testament books of the Bible and compare the accuracy of modern translations. At the same time, you have NOTHING to view to look at the original “reformed Egyptian” to examine how accurate Joseph Smith’s translation was. I’m not for one minute acknowledging such a thing as the Golden Tablets ever existed. I’m only pointing out you are steadfastly skeptical of the Bible because of supposed corrupted translations, but you don’t do the same for LDS doctrine on the basis of veracity of one prophet who repeatedly erred and gave false and even racist prophecies.

  99. 99 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 4:19 am

    David, i am simply going circles with you. I have written out 3+ replies in the “leave a reply” box, and have each time deleted what i wrote. I have done so because we have already had each of these conversations.

    I will respond to the Satan thing though. Unless i am mistaken, it is a Christian belief that men become adopted “sons” of God. You and i both have no memory of the life before right now, and as such are not in a position to say if Satan was adopted in a similar way. I know that Satan had a ridiculous amount of power, if by no other way than the very fact that he rebelled against ANYTHING God said. Neither of us has memory of the true extent of that power. It does not mean that he did not, and does not currently, have said power.

    Unless i missed it, you did not mention what you believe Satan rebelled against. You also did not mention how many fell away with him. We know that it was enough to make a war worthy of being put into the Bible… how many do you think this would require?

  100. April 7, 2012 at 4:48 am

    Josh said: “It is not Satan that told me to pray, and gave the promise that if I ask I will receive. This command and promise came from Christ himself. So why would you say that seeking such promised guidance is inspired by the devil?”

    Josh, have you ever prayed for God to show you the truth?

  101. April 7, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Josh

    “Unless i missed it, you did not mention what you believe Satan rebelled against. You also did not mention how many fell away with him. We know that it was enough to make a war worthy of being put into the Bible… how many do you think this would require?”

    This will be the last post with you on the subject of Satan, and I only post this to say – it is a pointless discussion. I did answer your question about who he rebelled against and it doesn’t matter how many he took with him in his rebellion. He is just evil, he is the enemy, the best thing for you to know about Satan is to stay away from him, that he works with false prophets in a very convincing way, that he wants to destroy your relationship with God and see you in hell. He doesn’t want you to trust the Bible or in Jesus alone for your salvation. He lies about God, makes false promises, and masqurades as an angel of light.

    Fix your eyes on Jesus and don’t get obessessed over Satan. You are focusing on the wrong thing. “2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12: 21

  102. 102 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Echo, i believe it was shem that said what u quoted, but i will respond anyway. Yes, i have prayed to God and i do know the truth. It is wonderful to know.

  103. 103 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    I am focusing on satan as one thing that is constantly used against us is who we believe satan to be. If u dont want to discuss satan, then dont bring him up.

  104. April 7, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Josh, if you have prayed to God to show you the truth, then he could be answering that prayer through us and through the message we bring you. Right? Now if you close your ears to us, then that would mean you close your ears to God’s answer to your prayer. Right?

  105. 105 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    And i could say the same to you echo. I prayed several years ago, and received my answer back then. There are also things God has given me to know I am on the correct path.

  106. 106 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    I did not want to do this in particular, but i will share some personal experiences where i have received answers one way or the other.
    My first experience with truly asking where i should be with religion was in fact when i decided to join the LDS church. Before that, i had not asked what i should be doing, or where i should go. I relied solely on those around me to tell me what was right. In confirmation to my prayer, i received a wonderful dream. If i remember it correctly, it was about me being baptized.
    The next major thing I asked about was whether to go on a mission or to join the Army. Again i received a dream, and i was in the Army.
    The last thing i prayed about that i will share with you is the question of whether or not i should marry a certain girl. The answer came to me as clear as any of your voices would “NO!”. Looking back, i wish that i had listened to God in this instance. Not listening led to the single worst year in my entire life. I had in just about everything else, sometimes we make choices because WE want to… That is what I did in this case. There are still days when this catches up with me, and that i remember it and wonder “what if”, but in this marriage i have found counsel in the Bible where Christ speaks of divorce and says “from the beginning it was not so”. It is now by no means a bad marriage. We are not abusive to each other, there are occasional disagreeances, but what marriage doesnt have those. I will always question what God had for me though.
    NEVER again will I make that mistake. God has told me that this church is true, and i intend to listen with every fiber of my being.

    Something else that I see as confirmation that anyone is where they are supposed to be is deja vu. There are times in my life where i had never been to a certain spot, but i knew it so vividly. To me, and to my father before me, this is God allowing you to see that He does know where you will go, and what you will do.

    I dont expect these same answers to come to anyone else in the same way. Some do hear still small voices, some feeling that “burning in the bosom”, and others get yelled at. Some get swallowed whole by a fish and spend 3 days in it’s belly. Answers come in a variety of ways, no way is incorrect. It is knowing who sent the message that we are to be weary of.

  107. 107 choosethechrist
    April 7, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    Josh said, “It is knowing who sent the message that we are to be weary of.”

    We all know that we are under the infuence of Ourselves, God, and Satan. The thing is that we have to be able to discern who we are listening to and in regard to praying about what “religion” to join, God has already spoken on that in the Bible. It’s not about “religion”, it’s about Jesus.

    God has spoken to us in His Word, The Bible, and told us that Jesus Christ is the only way. God would not tell anyone to join the LDS church because everything about the LDS church contradicts His Word.

    “If anyone claims that God has spoken to him/her, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God does not contradict Himself.” ~http://www.gotquestions.org/God-still-speak.html

  108. 108 joshtried
    April 7, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Choose, Jesus is our only way.
    I am going to cut a few things out of our articles of faith…
    We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by (properly accepting his atonement)
    We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
    We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
    we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

    As to whether you THINK we contradict what God has said before, i leave you to that… “let them worship how, where, or what they may” All 3 of us have shown you many times how we do not contradict what was taught in the Bible, and every time the same vicious cycle starts back at the beginning (i accuse both sides of taking it back to the beginning). The point is, no matter how much we show you, you have closed your eyes, ears, and heart, and do not care to listen to that which we speak.
    the most perfect example i can think of is Echo saying works are not necessary, but agreeing that faith without works is dead. THAT is contradicting itself. THAT is what you should be worried about. Yet instead you fight us tooth and nail saying we are wrong.
    You disagree with the wording our prophets use, or the topics they speak on, but do not have faith that what they say is right, and therefore will not understand it until 400 years from now when people look back and go “ohhhhh”. That is exactly what you are doing with the bible. You are using hind sight (which is 20/20) and saying I know it is right because it is proven right. That is not “faith.” Faith is believing WITHOUT seeing. Here is the google definition of proof: Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. You have proof of something being right. Therefore it is right. You dont have to exercise faith in the accounts of the Bible. Now, you WOULD have to exercise faith to understand the BoM to be true. Instead, you close yourself off, and hold to your knowledge of truth.

    I said this to others and i will say it hear now. I do commend you on the faith you hold to, for if you did not hold to it i would ask if you ever really believed it to begin with. The same is true of us. We have faith and knowledge that we are right. If we dont hold to that, then what faith is there that we were right to begin with?

  109. 109 choosethechrist
    April 8, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Josh,

    Here’s the deal, none of the things you copied from your articles of faith makes you right with God, saves you, restores your relationship with God or gives you eternal life with God and it does not matter what you think, or what I think, or what anybody else thinks. All that matters is what God SAYS and God says Christ alone. What we are telling you here, is not what we “think”. What we are telling you is what God has SAID. The common theme is that the LDS here do not like what God has said. The LDS here like what the LDS “prophets” have said.

    “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by (properly accepting his atonement)”

    Saved means restored relationship and eternal life with God. It is more than being given a resurrected body. Some resurrected bodies are going to find themselves in the lake of fire so that doesn’t really mean much does it? Your Jesus gives you a resurrected body and then he leaves you high and dry to earn the right to eternal life with God.

    “the most perfect example i can think of is Echo saying works are not necessary, but agreeing that faith without works is dead. THAT is contradicting itself.”

    The work of Jesus is all that is necessary to have a restored relationship and eternal life with God and no matter how many times we tell you that God says that works are the fruit of salvation and not required for salvation you do not listen. We didn’t say it God did.

    Romans 5:10
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    We are saved and reconciled to God because of Jesus. If I am reconciled to God, I get to be with God for all eternity.

    rec·on·cile (rkn-sl)
    1. To reestablish a close relationship between.
    2. To settle or resolve.
    3. To bring (oneself) to accept

    God does not reconcile us to him, establish a close relationship with us, accept us, and then cast us out away from him to a lesser degree of glory because we did not keep certain LDS requirements.

  110. 110 joshtried
    April 9, 2012 at 5:34 am

    Choose, you are really debating semantics now. Nothing you copy and paste from the Bible saves you either. I am not saying the articles in themselves save me. I am saying if I believe these things that i will be saved.
    You said “God has spoken to us in His Word, The Bible, and told us that Jesus Christ is the only way” and i posted those articles of faith, which is the official church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints position on Jesus being the only way, and still somehow you fail to see the truth we profess.

    “Saved means restored relationship and eternal life with God.”
    In the time i have been here, i dont know of any LDS member that has said you will never get to visit God.
    I am reconciled with my mother who kidnapped me 5 times throughout my childhood. That does not mean that i visit her every single day. I still have a close relationship with her. We talk over the phone. We send emails and do Facebook. Close relationship in no way means that you move in with God (that is to say into God’s specific house, vs one of the mansions Christ has gone to prepare for you). I would say a “nicer” way to describe this would be to say “neighborhoods” vs glories or levels of heaven. Now, who do you think God would place closest to him? Those that were his close and personal friends throughout this life that did exactly as He would have, or those that waited until the last possible moment to accept that, well, okay, i guess there is a God after all… Now, I am not saying that this is exactly how heaven will be, i am saying this is the more general feeling I receive from the scriptures.
    Why did Christ not take EVERY person that believed in him and send them out as apostles? Why dont we have thousands of scriptures from every single person that every saw and believed what Christ was preaching? Why didnt EVERY saint arise after Jesus’ Resurrection?? (52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many)
    These are more rhetorical questions, but i hope you get the point of me asking.

  111. 111 shematwater
    April 9, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    ECHO

    “Have you ever prayed for God to show you the truth?”

    Yes I have, and it always comes back to the truth of the LDS church, and the false doctrine that you profess. The possibility that you are the answer to any of those prays is non-existent, because you contradict what God has told me to be the truth, and he will never contradict himself.

    DAVID

    “show me what it is about what was quoted or omitted from the person quoted so that we can see what you claim to be taken out of context.”

    I never claimed anything was taken out of context. That was Kate. I was commenting on your reply to Kate, in which you implied that she denied the quote existed. She never denied this, but questioned whether you actually read the quote in context or not.
    Personally, I do not have access to the 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood study manual. Now, given your general lack of understanding in regards to LDS doctrine, and my access to the quotes you are trying to use, I feel more disposed to simply dismiss the reference as it means nothing unless one understands it. Now, if you were to provide a link so that I could actually look at the reference in context, and not have to take your word for it, then I might feel more disposed to actually comment on it.

    “you dispute much of what Isaiah says”

    No I do not. I dispute your interpretation of what Isaiah says, yes. But I do not dispute what he says.

    “You do not hold your own LDS doctrine up to the same scrutiny, skepticism, and evaluation that you put the Bible through and for no other reason than taking as gospel the testimony of one man as true.”

    Again, please don’t try to tell me my methods, belief, or basically anything about me that you have no clue concerning.
    I use the same evaluation to judge everything. That is does God tell me personally that it is true. If he says something is true than it is true, end of argument. If he says it is false than it is false, end of argument. If he says, as he does on occasion, figure it out for yourself, then I turn to other criterion to evaluate, but always based on what he has already told me to be true or false.
    So, God has declared Joseph Smith to be a prophet. That is true, and it doesn’t matter what anyone else says or argues, as God’s word will always trump theirs.
    God has declared that the Book of Mormon was translated by this prophet, through direct inspiration, and that the translation is accurate. Again, that is true, and his word will always trump everything else.
    God has declared that the Bible, while it was accurately given at one time, has lost much of what it had through the carelessness or evil designs of scribes and translators. That is true, and nothing will change that fact.
    I hold LDS doctrine to the same standards of proof that I hold the Bible, because I do not rely on the works and scholarship of men for my standards.

    “look at the original text of old and new testament books of the Bible”

    Problem here is that we don’t actually have any of the originals. For the New Testament all we have are copies that were made at least 50 years after the original was written. For the Old Testament the best we can get is a copy 200 years of the original was written. So, while what we have may be accurately translated, it is not proven to be what was originally written.
    (And then, of course, we get the problem of all those other books of scripture that the Bible tells us about that we don’t have any record of, but that is another point.)

    Now, I am still wandering what you believe the original Apostles will being judging.

    CHOOSE

    I everything that I have read the LDS are the only ones that actually are in agreement with the Bible. It is the rest of Christianity that has contradicted and twisted its meaning.


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