06
Apr
12

Being Forgiven

Lesson 14 of the Book of Mormon Gospel Doctrines course covers four short books in the Book of Mormon, namely Enos, Jarom, Omni, and Words of Mormon.  I cannot ever remember hearing or seeing anything quoted from these books.  The teacher’s guide is devoted mainly to helping LDS members understand the supposed historical settings of these books.  It also states that these books “emphasize that the scriptures have been prepared and preserved for us.”

The one thing that did catch my eye in the teacher’s manual was the question, “How can we know our sins have been forgiven?”  This was asked in reference to Enos 1:5-6.  The answer is in the form of the following quote from President Harold B. Lee.

“If the time comes when you have done all that you can to repent of your sins … and have made amends and restitution to the best of your ability … , then you will want that confirming answer as to whether or not the Lord has accepted of you. In your soul-searching, if you seek for and you find that peace of conscience, by that token you may know that the Lord has accepted of your repentance” (Stand Ye in Holy Places [1974], 185).”

It’s interesting that he points them to their consciences as the place where they can know that they are forgiven.  As the Bible makes clear, even the consciences of believers are not always trustworthy.  For example in 1 Corinthians Paul talks about believers who consciences are weak.  They felt guilty when they had no need to.

A much better source of reassurance that we are forgiven is the Bible.  Especially pertinent this Easter Sunday is Romans 4:25.  There Paul talking about Jesus says, “Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.”  Many people don’t understand the significance of that last phrase.  The two “for”s in this verse could also be translated because.  He was delivered for, or because of our offenses; he was raised for or because of our justification. Justification is a legal term which describes an acquittal.  In other words, Jesus was raised on Easter because God had justified us, or acquitted us.  Just like a prisoner leaves a prison after serving his sentence, so also, Christ, after serving our sentence for sin, left the prison of the grave.  His resurrection then is dramatic proof that God had accepted his payment for our sin – that our debt to God had been forgiven!

That’s much more solid proof than any proof we can receive from our consciences.  It is my prayer that on this Easter weekend you see the full significance of Christ’s resurrection.  May you see that your debt has been paid for – that you are forgiven on the basis of what Jesus has done.  May you listen to the sure word of Scripture.  “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”  (Hebrews 10:17-18)

 

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66 Responses to “Being Forgiven”


  1. 1 joshtried
    April 6, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Just to follow for now. Any specific questions i may be reached at
    williams.joshuajames@yahoo.com

  2. April 6, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Quote: ““How can we know our sins have been forgiven?” This was asked in reference to Enos 1:5-6. The answer is in the form of the following quote from President Harold B. Lee.

    “If the time comes when you have done all that you can to repent of your sins … and have made amends and restitution to the best of your ability … , then you will want that confirming answer as to whether or not the Lord has accepted of you. In your soul-searching, if you seek for and you find that peace of conscience, by that token you may know that the Lord has accepted of your repentance” (Stand Ye in Holy Places [1974], 185).”

    I am so thankful I don’t ever have to wait for the “TIME TO COME” when I will be forgiven.
    I am so thankful the TIME has already come! Amen!

  3. April 6, 2012 at 10:41 pm

    “then you will want that confirming answer as to whether or not the Lord has accepted of you.”

    I am so thankful also that I don’t have to wonder whether or not the Lord has accepted me. I KNOW with 100% Certainty, I have already been accepted because being accepted doesn’t depend on anything I “DO”.

  4. April 6, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    “Jesus loves the unworthy, the dirty, the broken, the failures. Jesus didn’t “fall” in love with us. He chose to love us. His love is unconditional, universal, and free. His love is not a reward for our worth. His love gives us worth.” ~Mark Jeske

  5. 5 JBR
    April 7, 2012 at 5:57 am

    What a blessing it is for to have the assuredness of salvation now … not because of anything that depends on human effort.

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    It is sad to think God’s forgiveness is based on “if you” do X and X…., then I’ll ”
    Want to hear what Mormonism’s “true” prophet Spencer Kimball said:

    ” … forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and “a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you.”

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    This is the purpose for the ministry Mark does …. and why many of us join in on….
    to announce the real good news, which is: Forgiveness is indeed in fact granted merely for the asking. This is the true revelation from the Bible and from those who speak the truth.

  6. April 7, 2012 at 6:37 am

    Romans 4:6-8 “David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    “Blessed are they
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
    Blessed is the man
    whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

    1 John 2:12 ” I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.”

  7. 7 Kent
    April 7, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Repentance is part of forgiveness, turning away from sinful lifestyles and sowing to the spirit instead of the flesh, but also a big part of repentance is acknowledging to God and ourselves that He is God and we will never be God. So i believe that anyone who thinks they can become a god has not truly repented. Folks, let go of that notion and accept the free gift of grace dependent of what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and not on what you do at all. “Christ is the end of the law for righteounsess to everyone who believes” (any works that you do)

    Believing you can become a god is trying to establish your own righteousness by not, again, aknowledging He is God and you are not and never will be God.

    Romans 10:1-13

    Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

  8. 8 choosethechrist
    April 7, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    The Mormon Way

    ” … forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and “a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you.” ~Spencer Kimball

    God’s Way

    Acts 10:42-43 “…And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

    Ephesians 1:7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth

    Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

    Acts 4:10-12 “… let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

  9. 9 SBGTF
    April 7, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    It is because of the death on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ on Easter morning that we believers have had the penalty of sin removed, the way made for eternal life, and we have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven us of all our sins right now, today!

  10. 10 steph
    April 7, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Colossians 1:22

    22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

    Colossians 2:13-17

    13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

    16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

    “You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.”

    Hallelujah!

  11. 11 JBR
    April 8, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Today is Easter …..

    Today is about being declared justified (just-if-i’ed never sinned)

    Easter resurrection is about being forgiven …. completely, unconditionally

    Hallelujah !

  12. 12 choosethechrist
    April 9, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

  13. 13 shematwater
    April 9, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Matthew 3: 8, 10
    “Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance…
    And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

    Acts 26: 20
    “shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”

    I am thankful that I have the assurance right now that I have been forgiven of God, that my conscious no longer harrows my soul with guilt, but is at peace. I am thankful that God has given me of his grace that I may do the works meet for repentance, that I am counted worthy to receive that forgiveness, and now stand pure before him. And I pray that he will continue to bestow his grace upon me that I may continue in those same works, that I do not loose that forgiveness through my weakness and unrighteousness.
    Truly, praise be to God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, this Easter season.

  14. April 9, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Shem, Thank you for sharing your beautiful testimony. I too praise my Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ. How thankful I am also for the opportunity to partake of the sacrament each week that blesses my soul with the remembrance of His Atoning Sacrifice and enables me to renew my baptismal covenant with Him which helps us to retain a remission of our sins.

  15. 15 choosethechrist
    April 9, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    My Testimony to the LDS People
    I know that Joseph Smith was a man who decided to start his own new religion during a time of restoration movement culture which was influenced by men such as Thomas Campbell, Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone and Sidney Rigdon. I know that Smith’s Book of Mormon represents his answer to major religious controversies of that time and is no prophecy. I know that there was no apostasy as taught by the LDS church and that early church history reveals that this did not happen. I know that Jesus did not need to restore His church to the Earth because Jesus said per Matthew 16:18 “18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” and that Jesus was not a liar. I know that Jesus is “I AM” and that “I AM” is Eternal and I believe the Word of God: John 8:14 “If you do not believe “I Am” you will die in your sins; Exodus 3:14 “14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”; John 8:58 “58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”; Isaiah 43:10 “10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”. I know that Jesus is Eternal. Therefore, Jesus can’t be the 1st spirit child of a Mormon god who has a beginning and is thus not Eternal. I know that Grace is simple and not a complicated system of laws and ordinances. We work from our salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit because we are thankful for what Jesus did for us. We do not work for our salvation as if it were a reward for our good deeds i.e. Ephesians 3:8-10, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5. I know that satan is the father of lies, masquerades as “an angel of light” “tries to hide the actual truth about our God” “offers counterfeit promises he can’t fulfill” “twists Scriptures to fit his purposes” and “defies God and despises truth”. I know that the LDS church does not hold the truth, but that the LDS people can know the truth and that the truth can set them free John 8:32.

  16. April 10, 2012 at 1:27 am

    Shem said: ” Matthew 3: 8, 10
    “Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance…
    And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

    Acts 26: 20
    “shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”

    I am thankful that I have the assurance right now that I have been forgiven of God, that my conscious no longer harrows my soul with guilt, but is at peace. I am thankful that God has given me of his grace that I may do the works meet for repentance, that I am counted worthy to receive that forgiveness, and now stand pure before him. And I pray that he will continue to bestow his grace upon me that I may continue in those same works, that I do not loose that forgiveness through my weakness and unrighteousness.
    Truly, praise be to God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, this Easter season.

    For your information. Christians also produce fruit in keeping with repentance. We are not forgiven after or as a result of producing fruit like Mormons are. We are forgiven BEFORE these things. Mormons trust in what they do in order to be forgiven. Christians trust in what Jesus did.

    In Mormonism, Christ only forgives the worthy. (A God who is self-serving)

    In Christinity, Christ forgives the unworthy. (A god who is self-less)

    While Mormons are busy working for their forgiveness and eternal life (self serving)
    Christians already have forgiveness and eternal life so they are busy serving their neighbor. (self less)

    Shem, if you have to work for your forgiveness, what exactly did Jesus do for you?

  17. April 10, 2012 at 3:00 am

    Shem said

    “I am thankful that God has given me of his grace that I may do the works meet for repentance, that I am counted worthy to receive that forgiveness, and now stand pure before him.”

    Kate said:

    “How thankful I am also for the opportunity to partake of the sacrament each week that blesses my soul with the remembrance of His Atoning Sacrifice and enables me to renew my baptismal covenant with Him which helps us to retain a remission of our sins.”

    In your third Article of Faith it says: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

    It’s not about you being worthy, it’s about Jesus doing everything for you because no one is worthy.

    ” 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    “22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.” Colossians 1:22

    Note from Colossians 1:22 – it is not YOU that reconciles yourselves before God “HE has brought you into HIS OWN PRESENSE, and your ARE HOLY AND BLAMELESS AS YOU STAND BEFORE HIM WITHOUT A SINGLE FAULT. That is perfection of YOU entirely by Christ alone! AND NOTE – Works are not even mentioned here because it is talking about what has made you perfect before God and it is Christ.

  18. 18 joshtried
    April 10, 2012 at 4:02 am

    Echo, unless i am mistaken (which may very well be the case), EITHER side asking for forgiveness without meaning it is not going to be forgiven. Now, unless someone somehow comes along and shows you that you must really mean what you say (thereby also ACTING ON what you say), then you will forever be stuck in this damned state forever.

  19. 19 joshtried
    April 10, 2012 at 4:02 am

    I guess that last one was to everyone, not just echo..

  20. 20 shematwater
    April 10, 2012 at 5:37 am

    ECHO

    For your information, John the Baptist required these works before he would beform Baptism for the remission of sins. To say you have the works after the forgiveness is to contradict the very statement that they are meet for repentance. This means that they make you worthy to receive repentance, not that they come because of repentance.

    “Mormons trust in what they do in order to be forgiven.”

    To set the record strait, since Echo likes to twist it a bit, the LDS know that it is through faith that we are forgiven, and that this is the only work that required. However, if we are to retain that forgiveness, or that we do not loose it we do all the works God has commanded. These come after forgiveness, not before, but are done to keep forgiveness.

    Echo, if you have to work for your diploma, what exactly did your teachers do for you?

    DAVID

    If we do nothing than why is anyone damned?
    So far I have had no one actually answer this without contradicting themselves.

  21. 21 JBR
    April 10, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    I hope that people will notice the implied conditional requirement for being forgiven in this statement:

    “And I pray that he will continue to bestow his grace upon me that I may continue in
    those same works, that I do not loose that forgiveness through my weakness and unrighteousness.”

    1) God’s grace isn’t defined as giving one an opportunity to do works to prove oneself
    worthy of such

    ……..Rather the good news is:
    God’s grace is defined as the unconditional undeserved love,
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    2) Being forgiven isn’t offered because of one’s strength and righteousness

    …… rather the good news revealed in the Bible is:
    being forgiven is proclaimed and offered despite of your failures and unrighteouness

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  22. 22 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    “John the Baptist required these works before he would beform Baptism for the remission of sins.” ~Shem

    Really? John the Baptist knew the works of all those he baptized? No, John was baptizing those who confessed their sins, Matthew 3:6. John’s baptism presupposed repentance, “repent for the kingdom of heaven is near”.

    John told the Pharisees and Sadducees to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” because he knew exactly what the Pharisees and Sadducees were about. He knew by their legalistic, hypocritical, and unorthodox beliefs (fruits) that they were not truly repentant which is completely consistant with how Jesus approached both of these groups. The condition of the heart is evident. Matthew 3:7-10

    Kind of sheds light on Mormonism doesn’t it? Mormons have legalistic, unorthodox beliefs just like the Pharisees and Sauducees did. John would not have baptized a Mormon either.

    Matthew 3:12
    12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

  23. 23 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    “just where, exactly, do you stand in relation to the Shepherd? Are you a sheep or a goat, saved or lost? Until you come to the place in your life that you find yourself among the sheep, until you are saved by faith, through the grace and mercy of God, you will never find true and lasting peace with God. God made us for Himself, and our hearts will be restless until we find our rest in Him. Consider the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. What is the condition of your heart? Remember, “He is no fool who gives away what he cannot keep, to gain that which he cannot lose” (Jim Elliott). Make your decision to dwell with the sheep under the care of the Shepherd, by the grace of God, with the love of Jesus.”

    http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

  24. April 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Shem:

    “If we do nothing than why is anyone damned?”
    So far I have had no one actually answer this without contradicting themselves.”

    Paul said:

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    You have had that question answered and I have seen no NON-LDS poster contradict themselves about what the true gospel of the BIble teaches. The contradiction is between the true gospel of Jesus and Joseph’s Smith’s false gospel. Unbelievers are damned, because they refuse to believe in Jesus’s full complete sacrifice for their sins and His resurrection, they try to justify themselves through their own efforts. For them, Christ died in vain, and they don’t trust in God’s grace of free forgiveness given as a gift through faith in Christ.

    Jesus Himself answers your question and He doesn’t contradict Himself (I should say the Jesus of the BIble doesn’t contradict Himself):

    “17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:17-18

    “16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16.

    Jesus ties unbelief and ONLY unbelief to damnation. Why? because it is ONLY faith in Christ that makes us righteous before God. ” 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:21-28

  25. April 10, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    David, it has been said a thousand times over. Study the Bible…know what you are talking about when you quote scriptures about the “law” in the context of many of the passages. Otherwise, the Bible contradicts itself, where you guys would rather ignore the scriptures that tell you there are “works” to do.

  26. 26 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Rewards in the kingdom of heaven are given to those who serve without thought of reward. There is no hint of merit for the Christian, for God gives out of grace, not out of debt.

    Mormonism is about the “works” to do, the reward, the degree of glory earned.

    Jesus is not my example of perfection…He is my substitute…he took my place and paid my debt. Unlike the story of the Debtor and Creditor from Gospel Principals…Jesus did not set terms for me to pay him back but canceled MY debt.

  27. April 10, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Oh, so you guys are now mind readers? Only the Lord knows our hearts. “Jesus is not my example of perfection”…wow…that says volumes…

    See what happens when we take parts of what you say and ignore the rest?

    You too need to reread the Bible. Jesus gave many commandments for you to follow….and no He did not do it to show you that you can’t possibly keep the commandments He told you to keep.

  28. 28 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    I’m doing my best to keep them though I still fall, but they are not what saved me for I was saved before I was keeping them. Following Jesus example of perfection is not what saved me otherwise I would be saving myself.

  29. 29 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    and the Lord does know our hearts. I don’t need to be a mind reader to know the Lord does not approve of Mormonism because He has told us He does not approve of it.

  30. 30 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Jesus gave me commandments to follow and none of them included anything about the LDS church.

  31. 31 choosethechrist
    April 10, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    In fact, now that I think about it, did he give me any new commandments to follow? Not really, the commandments he gave were already given. That kind of makes it sound like it wasn’t really all about keeping commandments doesn’t it? That kind of makes it sound like what all of us have been trying to tell you.

  32. April 10, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Kate:

    “David, it has been said a thousand times over. Study the Bible…know what you are talking about when you quote scriptures about the “law” in the context of many of the passages. Otherwise, the Bible contradicts itself, where you guys would rather ignore the scriptures that tell you there are “works” to do.”

    Why don’t you explain how what I quoted doesn’t mean what it says, instead of these typical childish rants.

  33. 33 Kent
    April 10, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Unbelievers, including those who preach a different gospel that we ourselves have to be worthy to have eternal life, do not go to a lower glory in a lower heaven that is better than anything here on earth but have their part in the lake of fire. So it is either saved, which is eternal life, or is eternal condemnation and we only have this lifetime to have true faith as there is no chance in the afterlife. Save does not just mean we have a chance to have eternal life some time in the distant future but that we know now, this moment, that we will be in the mansions where God is forever.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, UNBELIEVING, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, which is the second death.”

    John 3:14-18

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO YOU THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

  34. April 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Kate:

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    Why don’t you start with that one and explain what it means.

  35. 35 Kent
    April 10, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Kate said, “David, it has been said a thousand times over. Study the Bible…know what you are talking about when you quote scriptures about the “law” in the context of many of the passages. Otherwise, the Bible contradicts itself, where you guys would rather ignore the scriptures that tell you there are “works” to do.”

    Yes there are works to do but they have nothing to do with our eternal destiny, eternal life. So eternal life is either all about Jesus and what He did by dying on the cross to save us, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves and by His rising again on the third day, or it is nothing, which is eteranl damanation and condemnation to the lake of fire forever.

  36. 36 JBR
    April 10, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    The fact still remains is that since one in Mormonism can “loose that forgiveness through my weakness and unrighteousnesson” then by default being forgiven is based on “one’s strength and righteousness”

    So the truth remains about what Mormonism really teaches of about forgiveness …. any suggestion that isn’t based on “after all you can do”, is purposeful misleading.

  37. April 10, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    David: “Why don’t you explain how what I quoted doesn’t mean what it says”…been there done that.

    Choose: “In fact, now that I think about it, did he give me any new commandments to follow? Not really, the commandments he gave were already given. That kind of makes it sound like it wasn’t really all about keeping commandments doesn’t it? That kind of makes it sound like what all of us have been trying to tell you.”…makes absolutely no sense..sorry…can’t even respond to this.

    “He has told us He does not approve of it.”…prove it?

    Kent: You just say the same thing over and over again. It seems you don’t read any of our responses (or just don’t comprehend truth.)

    JBR: what is meant when Paul said, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”Phillipians 2:12 …and “And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.” 2 Corinthians 7:15.

    Oh how the Bible contradicts what you try to teach here.

  38. 38 Kent
    April 10, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    Kate, yes there are works to do and this is the work we are to do, believe in Him (Jesus) whom He (Heavenly Father) sent and we believe in Him by believing and trusting only in who He is, the one and only Son of God, and by trusting solely in what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. Any goods we ourselves do follow from this belief but do not gives us this belief.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

  39. April 10, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13 NIV

    How do you explain this contradiction?

  40. April 10, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Kent: John 13:17 NIV “Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.”

  41. April 10, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    James 1:25 NIV “But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does.”

  42. April 10, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    James 2:14 NIV “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?”

  43. 43 shematwater
    April 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    JBR

    “one in Mormonism can “loose that forgiveness”

    So, you believe in the once saved always saved doctrine? Or do you believe that it is possible for a person to loose their salvation once they have obtained it?

    “God’s grace isn’t defined as giving one an opportunity to do works to prove oneself worthy of such”

    God’s grace is defined as anything he gives us out of love and mercy that is not dependent on what we do. It is a divine favor. This can be an opportunity to do works, the power to do them, and the forgiveness for not doing them. I try not to limit what God’s grace can do for me.

    DAVID

    “Jesus ties unbelief and ONLY unbelief to damnation.”

    Great. So we have to believe, and thus we have to do something. You have just proven yourself wrong, and thus we see the contradiction that I mentioned.
    Simply put, if their is a verb in the sentence that pertains to us we have to do something, because that is what a verb is. Believing is doing something. Christ may have done everything else, but our salvation is still dependent on us believing, and thus we are in total control over our eternal destiny.

    Galatians 2: 21
    One must remember Paul’s audience. This is as much part of the context as the actual words he uses. His audience is the Jews in Galatia, many of which believed in the necessity of the Law of Moses. This is what Paul ssis talking about, and when he speaks of the Law, he is referencing the Law of Moses, not all laws ever given by God.
    Later in that epistle he mentions that the Law was added four hundred years after the covenant made with Abraham, which is the covenant that bring salvation, restored by Christ. (chapter 3).
    Now, if we cross reference the Covenant made with Abraham we read in Psalms 105: 9-10 “Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
    And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:”

    Notice that the covenant made with Abraham is confirmed as a law. So, if, as Paul says, it is by the covenant made with Abraham that we are saved, and that covenant was a law, than it is by that law that we are saved. It is to this law that the Law of Moses was added four hundred years after Abraham, which added law never had the power to save.

    This is the context and meaning of Galatians 2: 21.

  44. April 10, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    You see, there are so many contradictions in the Bible to what you tell us is the truth and that the Bible condemns Mormonism….

    All I can say is that you really need to go back and study your Bible.

  45. April 10, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Kate:

    “You see, there are so many contradictions in the Bible to what you tell us is the truth and that the Bible condemns Mormonism….”

    No I don’t see your “contradictions.” Not a single one. ANd the BIble condemns Mormonism because it is a false gospel.

    James is not a contradiction as I have explained before on this blog. Simply because you can quote a line here and a line there out of context doesn’t make a contradiction. It simply means you are desperate and don’t mind taking passages out of context. James and Romans 2, etc, are not contradictions to other passages quoted that clearly state we are made righteous by faith NOT by works.

    James 1:25 put in context says “22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.”

    This is simply perfectly consistent with, for example, the passage that directly contradicts 2 Nephi: 23-25 – that is Ephesians 2: “8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Works don’t save us, but they are what believers do BECAUSE they have already been saved by grace, not by works, through faith.

    James 2 is no different. Why does James say in James 2:14 NIV “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?” Because true faith, of persons who trust that Jesus has already saved them and has made them perfect before God respond to God’s great gift of love by doing works NOT in order save themselves, not to set aside the grace of God, but simply because they are new creations in Christ created to do those good works -its who they are and they act out of love for Him. They are not acting on a misguided notion that they MUST do something to finish what Jesus “made possible” for them to accomplish. James is simply describing what true faith looks. It is alive and active because dead faith is not true faith. “26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” James 2:26. People can deceive themselves into thinking they have faith when they don’t. They are not acting out of love they are acting with the expectation of earning something in return.

    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13 NIV This is no different than James 2 in speaking to how believers live their lives. Believers live for Christ, that doesn’t mean Jesus died in vain and that obedience to the law is what saves you – IT ISN’T!!!!!

    “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”Phillipians 2:12

    The quote you cite is NOT a requirement for them to acheive something. They already have it because it was achieved by Jesus. it is simply an acknowledgment of who they are and how they should value God’ precious gifts of grace and faith. it also speaks to their reverence for the immearsurable sacrifice Jesus made for them and us. He is talking about their attitudes:

    “5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.” Philipians 2:1-11

    So don’t just cite James 1:25, James 2, and your other carefully selected one sentence verses and ignore all other scripture. Read it all in context. In short, take your own advise. Study the bible and read all these passages in context with each other. You scoured the BIble for passages to take out of context – you are only kidding yourself. There is a reason, you could only quote one sentence at a time. Because if you quoted more the true meaning woud become obvious. You should spend more time actually reading what the Bible says than doing mad searches trying to find a sentence here and there that you think supports your phony gospel.

  46. April 10, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    “James 1:25 put in context says “22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.”

    This is simply perfectly consistent with, for example, the passage that directly contradicts 2 Nephi: 23-25 – that is Ephesians 2: “8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Works don’t save us, but they are what believers do BECAUSE they have already been saved by grace, not by works, through faith. ”

    But see David, you are merely trying to eliminate the “but doing it” phrase, which I am not quoting out of context. All of these..in their context…support the fact that works are involved with faith. You can disagree till your blue in the face, it will not change the fact that Christ said it was so.

  47. April 10, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Kate:

    “But see David, you are merely trying to eliminate the “but doing it” phrase, which I am not quoting out of context. All of these..in their context…support the fact that works are involved with faith.”

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

  48. April 10, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Shem

    “Great. So we have to believe, and thus we have to do something. You have just proven yourself wrong, and thus we see the contradiction that I mentioned.”

    Actually it was Jesus who said that Shem not me. You obviously must think he didn’t really mean what He said. I believe Him.

    Re: Galatians – What Galatians 3 are you reading?

    “10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.”

    15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
    19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

    21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.” Galatians 3:10-22

    You can’t get from the above to your statement:

    ” So, if, as Paul says, it is by the covenant made with Abraham that we are saved, and that covenant was a law, than it is by that law that we are saved. It is to this law that the Law of Moses was added four hundred years after Abraham, which added law never had the power to save.”

    Now go back and read verses 10 & 11.

    Shem you want to see the promise?

    ” 31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
    declares the LORD.
    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the LORD.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the LORD.
    “For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34

    Do you want to see it fullfilled by Jesus?:

    “10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

    17 Then he adds:

    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”[c]

    18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.” Hebrews 10:10-18

  49. 49 JBR
    April 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Kate ….. if you’re going to ask a question only to anwer it yourself then what does that say other than you have no intentuion but being quarrelsome.
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    Shem …. so when all else fails, you try deflecting the point.
    ……….”So, you believe in the once saved always saved doctrine?”………

    Face it, it was too soon for making double-sided positions.

    “after all you can do” … means exactly what it reads, despite your cleverness to argue we can’t read and understand Mormonism because “we’re not Mormon”.

  50. April 10, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    JBR…so you accept my answer as truth then? And so when you guys do that, it is NOT quarrelsome?

  51. April 10, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Kate

    ” it will not change the fact that Christ said it was so.”

    Jesus says in Matthew 16:18 “18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    You don’t believe Jesus – you believe this instead “The true Church was no longer on the earth” Gospel Ptrinciples (p. 95).

    Jesus says in Mark 12:24-25 “24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.”

    You don’t believe Jesus – you believe in exaltation to become a god. You believe that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are gods right now and that Jesus is wrong. You believe this lie instead of Jesus – D&C 132:37 –

    “they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.”

    Jesus said: “6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

    You don’t believe Jesus, instead you belief your own lying prophet and believe this lying prophet won’t lead you astray – “If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon

    Jesus said: 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16. He describes how those in hell cannot cross over out of hell in Luke 16:

    “19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ ” Luke 16: 19-26

    You don’t believe one must be a believer to avoid damnation. You believe that unbelieving sinners “after suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.” Gospel Principles pp. 292f. “. . . the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;” D&C 76:89. You believe people condemned to hell come out. You believe a pack of lies over Jesus.

  52. 52 shematwater
    April 11, 2012 at 12:51 am

    DAVID

    Once again you need to be reminded that we do not believe your interpretation, though we believe completely in the actual words themselves. There is a very big difference between believing in the words of Christ and believing in what you say they mean.

    As to the reference to the Abrahamic Covenant and all that I said, read again verse 16-19, as this is exactly what he is saying. The promise was made to Abraham (the Abrahamic Covenant) and it is that promise that saves. This is where the cross reference to Psalms 105 comes in.

    JBR

    I deflected nothing. I merely was making a point of my own.
    Do you believe it is possible for a person to fall from grace, to lose the forgiveness they have received?
    Answer the question and I will show you exactly how it directly connects with the point you were trying to make.

    Of course, if you prefer to keep the discussion one sided, and only allow our doctrine to be examined then there is little point in discussing at all.

    “after all you can do” … means exactly what it reads”

    I never once denied that it means what it reads. I simply stated that what you say it means is not what it reads, and so you are wrong. Of course this only applies when you actual quote the whole verse. If you prefer to refer to only these five words I will happily concede that they mean after all we can do.

  53. April 11, 2012 at 2:34 am

    Shem

    “Once again you need to be reminded that we do not believe your interpretation, though we believe completely in the actual words themselves. There is a very big difference between believing in the words of Christ and believing in what you say they mean.”

    What else in John 3:17-18 and Mark 16:16 does Jesus say saves and condemns? What else is it that saves us in Romans 3:21-28?

    “As to the reference to the Abrahamic Covenant and all that I said, read again verse 16-19, as this is exactly what he is saying. The promise was made to Abraham (the Abrahamic Covenant) and it is that promise that saves. This is where the cross reference to Psalms 105 comes in.”

    The promise was fullfilled by Jesus and was NOT set aside by the law. That is why Paul asks the question about the law’s purpose in verse 19. Verse 22 alone says enough “22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.” Clearly Paul is not saying we are saved by the law.

  54. 54 joshtried
    April 11, 2012 at 4:42 am

    David, the law was FULFILLED with Christ.
    Lets try and write it all out….

    Law says no sin enters heaven.
    Law says sin = death.
    you sin.
    you die and no longer enter heaven
    Christ comes and blots out your sin.
    you no longer die and you enter heaven.

    I have not read a single scripture that ever said “after Christ came the wage of sin was no longer death for every person on the face of the earth.”
    I have read numerous times “believe in Christ and have eternal life” and “believe in Christ and enter heaven”
    The law is still perfectly in tact. Every single person born on earth is under the law. Through accepting Christ we may satisfy the law.

  55. 55 joshtried
    April 11, 2012 at 5:20 am

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    I dont frustrate Gods Grace.

    Christ Fulfilled said Law, therefore, according to THIS understanding are we made righteous:

    Old covenant: Keep law and be made righteous
    New covenant: May substitute Christ keeping law for you. (If you ever wish to get to heaven, i suggest you substitute him for you, otherise youre up a creek…)

  56. 56 JBR
    April 11, 2012 at 5:54 am

    Shem,
    We’re not talking about “falling from grace” \ the elect’s eternal security, so your question about OSAS is not relevent as far as I am concerned.

    Being forgiven is not contingent on a person’s strength or righteousness.
    That … as bearendave pointed out (as well as echo) about the significance of “grace AFTER you can do” doctrine.

    I’m going to have to go now.
    My father-in-law is but days away from experiencing the truth of being “saved by grace alone” ………he has advanced cancer which has now is showing up on his brain. The doctors didn’t expect him to live the night, so my wife’s family is hurriedly flying \ getting back to the hospital to say their goodby’s till they meet in heaven.

    I hope Shem you come to rrealize that he has forgiveness now because he placed his faith on Jesus’ being his subsitute, not on any of his own strength\righteousness.

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  57. 57 shematwater
    April 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Since JBR says he will no longer be posting for a while I will explain the purpose of my question to him, and show exactly how it relates to what he said.

    JBR said: “The fact still remains is that since one in Mormonism can “loose that forgiveness through my weakness and unrighteousness” then by default being forgiven is based on “one’s strength and righteousness”

    In response to this I asked if he believed in the Doctrine of Once saved always saved, or if he believed one could fall from Grace.
    The reason for this question is simple: If he also believes that one can fall from Grace, and thus lose that forgiveness than he believes what we believe. It is that simple.

    We believe it is possible for a person to loose forgiveness and fall from Grace, and for that he claims we believe forgiveness is dependent on works.
    Does he believe it is possible for a person to loose forgiveness and fall from Grace? If so, how does this happen?
    Until he clarifies his belief in this regard there is nothing else that can be said and the entire point he was trying to make is mute.

    DAVID

    Mark 16: 16 (I don’t recall you ever referencing this on this thread, but what the hey).
    What saves: Faith combined with Baptism
    What condemns: An absence of Faith.
    Note: According to this verse one cannot be saved without baptism, but one can be condemned with it.

    John 3: 17-18
    What saves: Actually, this passage doesn’t say what saves. It only says that Christ makes salvation possible.
    What Condemns: Not believing.
    Note: In this passage we are told that one who believes in not condemned, which is not the same thing as being saved. It merely means that one who has faith is now able to be saved, as they are no longer condemned. They are brought out of hell, but they are not yet in heaven.

    Romans 3: 21-28
    What saves: This is unclear. You will note in verse 23 that it is only a remission of sins that are past, and not those that are in the future. You will also note that it is the Law of Faith that justifies, through the atonement of Christ. All this seems only to indicate that we are initially brought into the faith and justified by these means, but the past tense of the remission of sins would suggest that more is to follow.
    What Condemns: This topic is not even discussed. The topic of this passage is justification, and thus condemnation is not part of it.

  58. 58 Kent
    April 15, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Shem, if someone were to read the Bible alone or even the Bible and the Book of Mormon and nothing else he or she would never come to the conclusion that God was a man first before He became God and not only that, they would never believe that God progressed to be God as those later teachings contradict not only the Bible but the book the Mormons call the most correct book on earth, the Book of Mormon as well.

  59. 59 Kent
    April 15, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    I put my last comment on the wrong thread here.

  60. April 15, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Echo said: “Shem, if you have to work for your forgiveness, what exactly did Jesus do for you?”

    Shem replied: “Echo, if you have to work for your diploma, what exactly did your teachers do for you?

    Who earned the diploma?

  61. 61 shematwater
    April 16, 2012 at 1:42 am

    ECHO

    “Who earned the diploma?”

    You tell me.

  62. 62 joshtried
    April 16, 2012 at 2:33 am

    Echo,

    We EARN our forgiveness with a repentant and contrite heart, and a broken spirit. Christ has merely made it possible to earn that forgiveness.

    If we had to do ABSOLUTELY nothing for it, then every single person in this entire world would be forgiven right this very second. They would all go to heaven, there would be no hell because Christ’s forgiveness was for everyone. Even Satan would not go to hell because Christ would forgive that also, because of the utter nature of forgiveness. We would all be forgiven of every single deed we have ever done, and will ever do, and we dont have to worry about a single thing. This is even better than once saved always saved. This is just come to Earth and PAR-TAY.
    If you really believe this, you are free to go out and stab someone right now. It doesnt matter. You dont have to do anything for the forgiveness that Christ has already promised. Go ahead. You will get to experience something new and exciting. There should be no fear of backlash, no fear of reprisal. Christ will forgive totally without any need on our part, right? Go ahead. (yes, this is just “slightly” sacarstic. I in no way ACTUALLY condone this type of action)

    Christ said he will choose whom he will forgive, and then said ask with real intent. I am not deciding whether you have asked Christ correctly Echo. I leave that completely and totally to Christ. I do want you to question whether you have asked sincerely. If there is even a FAINT “maybe not” in there, then something is completely and totally wrong, and it should be asked now. This of course is not directed solely to you, it is directed to anyone that thinks that forgiveness doesnt require something from us.

  63. 63 Echo
    April 18, 2012 at 4:52 am

    Josh said: “If we had to do ABSOLUTELY nothing for it, then every single person in this entire world would be forgiven right this very second”

    Repeat… “then every single person in this entire world would be forgiven right this very second”

    The entire world is forgiven right now this very second…

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ” All this is from God, WHO RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, NOT COUNTING PEOPLE’S SINS AGAINST THEM. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”

    Colossians 1:22 “But NOW HE HAS reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—”

    Hebrews 10:17-18 “17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.”

    1 John 2:12 ” I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.”

  64. 64 joshtried
    April 18, 2012 at 6:52 am

    So echo, every single person is going to heaven right now? is that what you are telling me?

  65. 65 Echo
    April 18, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Josh, lets go one step at a time. The scriptures I posted clearly state that the entire world is forgiven right now this very second.

  66. 66 joshtried
    April 18, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    I understand everyone is forgiven. This is the gift of Christ. (my words were slightly poorly chosen above)

    to return to the college analogy, everyone in the USA can get grant money (it may not all be the same amount, but that is not my point). It is there just waiting to be taken. Christ’s forgiveness is there, waiting for us.
    A good LDS scripture to help in this point is D&C 64:10 “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” Being forgiven of Christ to me is synonymous with entering into heaven. Christ died for all men, but that does not mean all men are willing to accept this. There were 2 men on crosses next to Christ. If both were forgiven, why did they not both go to paradise?


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