18
Apr
12

GUILTY

That has to be one of the most earth-shattering words that could ever be directed at a person – especially when it is spoken by a judge.  We can almost see the defendant slump down as his or her family break out in tears.  This is magnified all the more when the guilty verdict results in the death penalty.

“Guilty” is the verdict that rang down on all of mankind from no less a judge than God himself.  “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”  (James 2:10)  As the footnote in the LDS edition of the Bible correctly states, “offend” means to stumble or err.  The breaking of the law in consideration is not an intentional, but an unintentional one.  It is a stumble, a mistake.  But that makes no difference.  The verdict is just as devastating.  Guilty!  “Guilty of all”.  You stumble at just one point – you break it all.  God’s commandments are a unified whole.  It only takes one pinprick to burst a balloon.  It only takes one sin to break the whole law.

And it doesn’t make any difference how much good a person did before or after – the verdict “guilty” remains.  He could have been the model citizen before and the model prisoner afterwards but he remains guilty.

But what makes matters even more sobering is the realization that James is talking hypothetically.  There has been no person who just erred once.  Reality is that we stumble and err regularly.  There are so many good things we fail to do – so many sinful thoughts, words, and actions that we end up doing.  No matter how hard we try, all we can do is dig ourselves into a deeper hole. This contrast: “offend in one point – guilty of all” makes for an airtight case.  If a person’s obedience isn’t perfect – if there is just one slip – he is guilty – guilty of all.

That’s why I am so thankful that Jesus took all my guilt and became guilty in my place – and served my sentence.  That is why I am so thankful that Jesus was perfectly obedient and God credited that perfect obedience to me.  That is why, when I think of living eternally with heavenly Father the only work that I base that on is his work for me.  “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

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51 Responses to “GUILTY”


  1. 1 JBR
    April 18, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    This “guilty” verdict is why the natural man can not be saved “after all you can do”.

  2. 2 Kent
    April 18, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    We only get this lifetime to get it right. We don’t get a chance in the afterlife and we don’t go to a lower heaven that is better than anything here on earth so it is either heaven in the mansions where God is or it is hell, outer darkness forever and ever.

    Notice how John 3 shows that believing in Jesus gives us eternal life not just a chance, if we are worthy enough, to maybe have eternal life sometime in the afterlife. also notice that John 3 shows that people who don’t believe in Jesus are condemned not given any level of glory, even in a lower heaven, where condemned means hell (outer darkness).

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    John 3:14-18

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  3. 3 TJayT
    April 18, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    “That’s why I am so thankful that Jesus took all my guilt and became guilty in my place –and served my sentence. That is why I am so thankful that Jesus was perfectly obedient and God credited that perfect obedience to me. That is why, when I think of living eternally with heavenly Father the only work that I base that on is his work for me. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.””

    Amen pastor, amen.

  4. April 18, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    Isn’t it awesome how God made all creation in only 6 days, Adam messes it up. And God does NOT just start all over! Instead, His love is so vast that He implements a plan to redeem us from our sinful state. Here God, who has no sin, can’t stand sin, sends His own Son (through whom all things were made) to be sin for us and take away the sin of the whole world so that WE might become “the righteousness of God.” The plan takes thousands of years to carrry out. He endured sorrow, insults, unimaginable suffering, a tortuous death, and worst of all separation from God the Father (all which we deserve), in order to reconcile us to Him after the fall. Why? Because He loves us that much. How awesome is that! I know I’ll never be worthy of what Jesus did for me. I could never earn that, or repay it. How comforting it is to know He did that for me anyway and that He has made me righteous before God. That was His gift to me. How precious is that! – – – How humbling is that!

    “16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

  5. 5 JBR
    April 18, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    About an hour ago today, my father in law personally stood in front of the Triune God and heard the verdict that only comes by faith……….. not guilty.

    THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

  6. 6 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 5:00 am

    JBR:
    my condolences to your family for the worldly loss. (if i am reading this correctly…)

  7. 7 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 5:08 am

    David, do you believe God to be all knowing? if so, this statement shows your complete lack of understanding of that term.
    “And God does NOT just start all over! Instead, His love is so vast that He implements a plan to redeem us from our sinful state.”
    How did God NOT have a plan in place BEFORE the fall if he is in fact all knowing?

    Kent: “Notice how John 3 shows that believing in Jesus gives us eternal life not just a chance, if we are worthy enough, to maybe have eternal life sometime in the afterlife”
    We teach the same thing with regard to this. Believe in Christ and have eternal life.

    As to this: “We don’t get a chance in the afterlife and we don’t go to a lower heaven that is better than anything here on earth so it is either heaven in the mansions where God is or it is hell, outer darkness forever and ever.”
    Can you reconcile your statement with this scripture for me? “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (revelations 20:13)
    This tells us several things.
    1. after death, people were judged and sent to hell.
    2. people came out of hell, if for absolutely no other reason than to be judged. At the very, VERY least, this does not constitute forever and ever.
    3. people are going to be judged a second time, this time being according to their works.

  8. 8 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 5:09 am

    (forgot to subscribe…)

  9. 9 Kent
    April 19, 2012 at 9:53 am

    joshtried said, “Kent: “Notice how John 3 shows that believing in Jesus gives us eternal life not just a chance, if we are worthy enough, to maybe have eternal life sometime in the afterlife”
    We teach the same thing with regard to this. Believe in Christ and have eternal life.”

    Wonderful, so I get to live in the mansions where God is forever and I don’t have to be a temple worthy Mormon or even a Mormon at all to have eternal life and it is based solely on believing in Christ and what He alone did by dying on the cross and rising again third day to save me, a sinner who cannot ever save myself, and it doesn’t mean I get to live in a lower heaven because that is what I am referrring to when I say eternal life.

    Josh, if your church really teaches that we have eternal life based on our belief in Christ, then there is no need for the Mormon temple and obeying any of its ordinances

  10. 10 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    I can not judge where you will go with regard to the different glories. I can tell you what God has made clear, and we have made this clear before. As I said in my last response, there are additional requirements for each glory of heaven. If someone meets those requirements once you die since you are unwilling to make them now, then theoretically you will go to the celestial kingdom. The location of your mansion is based on you though. You will be judge on your belief in christ first, and on your works (through christ or not) second (there are 2 separate judgements spoken of). Only God gets to decide where you go.

  11. April 19, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Josh

    “this statement shows your complete lack of understanding of that term.”

    You have been hanging around Shem too much. I have human understanding, not God’s understanding. So permit me to think in human terms when thinking about how awesome and loving God is. Of course God knew what would happen. I was simply making an observation it would have taken less time to simply start over – a human approach, but thankfully not His approach. I’m am well aware God is all knowing. I was expressing an emotion. I suppose I could have expressed the same thing by saying God’s plan of salvation took no shortcuts – He chose a plan that would display His love for us knowing what it would entail. You know Josh, God didn’t HAVE to save us, He could have just let us die in our sins, but He loved us enough to save us from what we deserve in such a way that it put the entire burden of our failures, our sins, on HIm. That to me is such a powerful showing of His love for us we can’t possibly grasp it. That is something that LDS teaching takes away from its members – a true foundation from which to appreciate God’s love for us, the lengths He went through to save us, and the magnitude of Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice for us. God didn’t have to make a single promise to save us. Fortunately, God is merciful and His loves us more than we can ever comprehend (at least on this side of Heaven).

  12. April 19, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    David said, “I have human understanding, not God’s understanding.” You act as if that makes you right and us wrong.

    But, the truth is, God wants us to understand His mysteries. That is our journey here, that we should not waste time but seek understanding….to KNOW. We have been given a gift to help us do that…the Atonement. With that, we are able to soar.

    The definition of the greek word for mysteries used in the New Testament is: “secret, of which initiation is necessary”; or in other words, ordinances.

    1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

    You mock us for believing that which Christ, Himself, taught. You do not understand, because you do not seek to know His mysteries.

    “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God….Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches….But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him…” 1 Corinthians 2:1-6

  13. April 19, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    And Mark….your point here is correct. Jesus did die for us and wiped away our sin…but we have to accept Him and follow Him. No matter how many time you hash this out, the outcome is always the same. We have shown you all here over and over again that you can lose that which you have gained. Thus, it only stands to reason that if you can lose something by doing something, you have to hold onto it by doing something. The beautiful truth is that if you hold onto the gift so freely given, and do not trash it, you are able to do all things through Christ. Will it be easy? No, suffering is a part of it and why some find it hard to hold on…because it is a choice to hold on. While holding onto Christ, we do His will for the right reasons.

    When people truly understand the Atonement and BELIEVE what Christ tells us, we are truly free.

  14. April 20, 2012 at 12:33 am

    Regarding Kate’s post above:

    “13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

    “15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Matthew 7:15

    “4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” 2 Ephesians 4-10

    “10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
    24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:” Hebrews 2 10:10-24

  15. 16 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 2:49 am

    DAVID

    I have a question that no one outside the LDS church has ever been able to answer satisfactorily. It is a simple question, and can have a simple answer.
    Why?
    To elaborate, why did God create man; what was his motivation? Why did He allow Adam to fall? Why did it take 4000 years for Him to send Jesus to perform the Atonement? Why are any condemned at all?
    Simply put, why did God make things so that they would work in the way they do?

    Please take your time. I think this is a vital question, as it goes right to the character of God.

    KENT

    To believe, to have real faith, requires a willingness to follow. As James says, “a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (2: 18)
    So, when you are standing before the Judgment Bar of Christ and declare that you have faith, Christ will ask you “If you have faith then why did you not accept the baptism from my appointed servernts? Why did you reject that which I made available in the Temples?” How will you answer Him?

    It is much like the story of the man caught in the flood. Sitting at the second story window and a row boat comes by offering to take him away. “No, no,” he says. “I have prayed to God and he has promised to save me.” Later he is forced up onto the roof of his house, when a motor comes by, offering to take him out of the flood. “No, no,” he says. “I have prayed to God and he has promised to save me.” Later, when the water is up to his waist, a Helicopter comes and lowers a ladder, telling him to climb up. “No, no,” he says. “I have prayed to God and he has promised to save me.” Needless to say the man died in the flood. When he was brought before God he asked in confusion, “God, you promised you would save me. What happened?” God just shook his head and replied “I sent you a row boat, a motor boat, and a helicopter. Why did you not accept them?”

    We are all as the man in the flood, and God has promised to save us. He send us his appointed ministers with the odinances of the gospel, which he fully expects our faith in him will lead us to accept. When we refuse, saying to ourselves “God has promised to save me, so I have no need of these things” we deny ourselves the opportunity for salvation out of misguided belief.

  16. April 20, 2012 at 3:24 am

    Shem

    “I have a question that no one outside the LDS church has ever been able to answer satisfactorily. It is a simple question, and can have a simple answer.”

    I know of no Biblical passage that gives an answer to any of your questions. They are questions only God has the answer to. It is foolish to speculate about such things or to try to understand how God operates.

    “33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” Romans 11:33

    “I think this is a vital question, as it goes right to the character of God.”

    We don’t need to know. As for His character – His love endures forever.

    “33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
    34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” Luke 23:33-34

    “37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:37-39

  17. April 20, 2012 at 4:21 am

    David…you continually speak of all of this “we don’t need to know…etc….” That is not true. I address that above, but you cannot respond to it….how come? Your response was not a response. I challenge you to actually read what I wrote and respond to it.

  18. April 20, 2012 at 4:25 am

    Also, David, you are implying with your post that the things I posted are false. Really? They are all from the Bible. There is not one thing I said that isn’t Biblical. Does it bother you that the Spirit testifies of these things? You really need to take a look and listen to what the Spirit is really saying to you. It isn’t what I posted that the Spirit is condemning…be careful not to call that which is good, bad.

  19. 20 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 4:56 am

    David: “It is foolish to speculate about such things or to try to understand how God operates.”???????
    Then why do we have A SINGLE SCRIPTURE? Are we to know EVERY NUANCE? Probably not.
    I DO know how God operates. Accept Christ, do as He commanded, and be allowed to return to Him. Do not do as He has commanded and go to hell. That seems pretty easy to understand to me. That is how God operates. Do you deny that I understand this facet of God’s operation?

  20. 21 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 5:08 am

    And to this David: “I know of no Biblical passage that gives an answer to any of your questions.”

    While there may or may not be a Biblical answer, why do you not give YOUR answer? Do you believe that the Bible is the only truth on the entire planet, and that every word that comes out of your mouth is a lie?

  21. 22 JBR
    April 20, 2012 at 5:39 am

    Here is my answer (though not be theologically correct) to Shem’s why questions:
    ———————————————————————————
    To elaborate, why did God create man; what was his motivation?
    A: To have those who would believe in him, praise and glorify him…then to eventually co-exist with him forever. Revelation 21:3

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    Why did He allow Adam to fall?
    A: “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” Romans 11:34
    A: “For we know in part….” 1 Corinthians 13:9
    A: “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.—— Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:9

    Fact is we don’t have all the answers that we would like to know …
    “know in part”, and “Now we see but a poor reflection”.
    Insisting or inventing answers to satisfy such questions is not from God but satanical peering into God’s omnscience.

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    Why did it take 4000 years for Him to send Jesus to perform the Atonement?

    A: 4000 human yrs is not very long to a God that has always been.
    …. With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
    2 Peter 3:8

    Fact is to God it has been like only 4 days.
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    Why are any condemned at all?

    A: Because many are the children of the devil. John 8:41-43
    A: those who reject him now are already condemned now John 3:18
    A: Because God is perfect and the command is to be perfect, not become it Matthew 5:48

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    why did God make things so that they would work in the way they do?

    A: Isaiah 45:9
    “Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?

    God does not (and will not) take kindly those who question him … the how come and why for’s. Some times God send a delusion to such persons to keep them in their condemnation… never being able to see the truth.

    These delusions could be scientific in the form of evolution or it could be false teachers who invision false gospels that come from masquarding satanical angels.

    These masquarding satanical angels will mix some truth within their lies, entraping the self-righteous, the unsuspecting, those who find fault with the accuracy of the Bible.

  22. April 20, 2012 at 5:50 am

    Wow, you must really feel threatened JBR.

  23. 24 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 5:56 am

    JBR: i have been one of “those who find fault with the accuracy of the Bible.” since before i was LDS. some of this stuff just does not make sense as Christians describe it. As i have pointed out before, even the BIBLE says it has been handled falsely!!!
    `How can you say, “We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

    So, we are wrong for believing the Bible when it says there are parts that are wrong… Got it.

  24. April 20, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Kate

    “It isn’t what I posted that the Spirit is condemning…be careful not to call that which is good, bad.”

    The Mormon church teaches a false gospel. It misrepresents, as you misrepresent, what the Bible teaches in order for it to line up with the false gospel of the LDS church. I’m sure you are convinced of the truth of what you are saying Kate – I don’t doubt that. You reflect what you have been taught. The true Gospel of Jesus, however, is NOT what the LDS church teaches. Neither is the LDS portrayal of Jesus the true Jesus of the Bible. I am not calling that which is good bad. False gospels are bad – really bad.

  25. April 20, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Josh

    “While there may or may not be a Biblical answer, why do you not give YOUR answer?”

    I don’t have an answer Josh.

    “Do you believe that the Bible is the only truth on the entire planet , and that every word that comes out of your mouth is a lie?”

    to the first part of your question – I know the Bible is the only true inspired and inerrant Word of God. There are no others.

    to the second part of your question – no.

  26. April 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Josh

    “David: “It is foolish to speculate about such things or to try to understand how God operates.”???????
    Then why do we have A SINGLE SCRIPTURE? Are we to know EVERY NUANCE? Probably not.

    This is why: “31 But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. ” John 20:31

    “I DO know how God operates. Accept Christ, do as He commanded, and be allowed to return to Him. Do not do as He has commanded and go to hell. That seems pretty easy to understand to me. That is how God operates. Do you deny that I understand this facet of God’s operation?”

    Where then is God’s grace for you Josh? That is how God operates under the law for unbelievers.

    “18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:18

    “16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16

    Josh your explaination of how God operates should show you that you are still under the law. That is what Jesus came to put an end to for you, for me, for everyone. It is the LDS church that has put you and kept you under the law. That only leads to the outer darkness and away from God’s grace. “1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:1-4

    “22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.” Colossians 1:22

    “10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
    17 Then he adds:
    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”[c]
    18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.” Hebrews 10:10-18

  27. 28 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    So, as I said, no one outside the LDS church can really answer these questions, proving that no one outside the LDS church really knows God, which means none of them have eternal life, for Christ has taught that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17: 3)

    I say this partly in jest, but also to make a point. David declares that we can’t really know God, and since the Bible does not directly answer these questions we can’t know the answers (denying God’s power to reveal the answers to those who seek them). JBR give the same basic reply to most of them, adding in that if we seek answers to them it will upset God and condemn us, which seems to contradict the invitation to “ask and you will receive.”

    In short, people here seem to be rather clueless as to the nature and character of God, and somewhat hostile to anyone who wants to learn these things.
    Personally, I find it difficult to have faith in a God when I do not have an understanding of his Character and motivations. I am not asking for all the answers, but just an assurance that what he is doing is truly in my best interest. This would begin with why I was created in the first place, and why I have to endure this life, and what the end goal is.

  28. 29 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    David, for the 10th time, at least… Christ did NOT end the LAW, He FULFILLED the law.
    We are still under the law, you, and me, and everyone else in this world. The law is “SIN AND DIE.” Christ Fulfilled the “DIE” part of this law, he did not cancel it. He did not say no more death for sinners… He said no more death for sinners who believe in me, because i have already died in their place.

  29. 30 JBR
    April 20, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Josh,
    Yes , you’re wrong for believing about that of the Bible. Just as you are for exchanging the truth of the Bible for a lie.

    As Jesus revealed that those in Capernaum will be more severly punished for their rejecting the truth than those who had no oppertunity like Sodom.

  30. 31 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    SO, are you saying that you do not believe Jeremiah?

  31. 32 JBR
    April 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    “SO, are you saying that you do not believe Jeremiah?”

    A: I had to chuckle alittle on this side … attempting to take a book of the Bible to discredit it the same.

    By the time Jesus came around on the scene, he never once commented that the scriptures were in error. And since it’s revealed that “all scripture is God breathed” then I guess what you’re doing is accusing God or Paul or Jesus (who said the scriptures cannot be broken) of something that you’ll have to account for.

    Jeremiah was judging those “experts” who had continually added to the law of Moses and had forgotten that repentance from God comes through faith. That was the lying pen that entrapped many to their destruction to hell.

    If Jeremiah were present today, instead of the Jewish scribes being refered to, it would be the “prophets” of Mormonism.

  32. 33 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    JBR

    However, the quote in Jeremiah at least proves that over time corrupt leaders can cause corruption in the reading of the scriptures, and thus cause many to fall to Hell.
    So, when we say that the leaders of Christianity after the time of the Apostles became corrupt and caused a corrupt reading of the scriptures that eventually lead to the great apostasy and the entrapment of many souls, we can simply refer back to the precedent set in the times of Jeremiah, and call you as a witness.

    If Jeremiah were on the Earth today he would be writing a sequal to his book Lamantations, for it is a great sorrow that so many have been lead astray by the false and vain doctrines that have permeated the Christians world for over 1800 years.

  33. April 20, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Shem said: “So, as I said, no one outside the LDS church can really answer these questions, proving that no one outside the LDS church really knows God, which means none of them have eternal life, for Christ has taught that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17: 3)”

    As per Josh, the lying pen of the scribes has handled the word falsely so that some of the parts of the Bible are wrong. You don’t know which parts are wrong are which parts aren’t. Maybe all the parts that you choose in support of what you can know about God are wrong. That would mean that everything you claim to know about God is false. That proves that nobody inside the LDS Church really knows God, which means none of them have eternal life, for Christ has taught that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” Oh but then again, maybe those words are also parts that have been handled incorrectly by the scribes. What does that leave you? Well nothing really. Pack up your bags and go home because you cannot find truth.

  34. April 20, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Josh,

    JBR said: “I had to chuckle alittle on this side … attempting to take a book of the Bible to discredit it the same.”

    Josh, maybe it was Jeremiah 8:8 that was handled falsely by the scribes. Did you ever think of that? Do you see the problem with this kind of thinking yet? You might want to read Jeremiah and learn how exactly these scribes mishandled the word. You can learn how many ways their teachings are in agreement with Mormonism.

    The fact is that these particular scribes as well as Mormons handle scripture falsely.

    2 Timothy 2:15 “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

  35. April 21, 2012 at 12:02 am

    Shem said: “However, the quote in Jeremiah at least proves that over time corrupt leaders can cause corruption in the reading of the scriptures, and thus cause many to fall to Hell.”

    Right. I agree. And Mormonism can cause corruption in the reading of the scriptures and thus cause many to fall to Hell.

    Shem said: “So, when we say that the leaders of Christianity after the time of the Apostles became corrupt and caused a corrupt reading of the scriptures that eventually lead to the great apostasy and the entrapment of many souls, we can simply refer back to the precedent set in the times of Jeremiah, and call you as a witness.”

    Wrong. There never was a complete apostasy. Mormonism just made that fairytale up through some scripture twisting. A complete apostasy is completely unscriptural when you take the bible as a whole. But then again, Mormons don’t take the Bible as a whole, they only take the scriptures that support their teachings and discard the rest.

  36. 37 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 3:04 am

    “Josh, maybe it was Jeremiah 8:8 that was handled falsely by the scribes. Did you ever think of that?”
    Then BY DEFAULT the BIBLE HAS ERRORS. Did you think of that?

  37. 38 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 3:16 am

    JBR said: “I had to chuckle alittle on this side … attempting to take a book of the Bible to discredit it the same.”

    JBR: i am not attempting to discredit the entire Bible. I am saying Jeremiah was speaking of more than just a few rouge scribes. Satan has been influencing Man since the very first group of people were on earth. You dont think he could have worked something just a little twisted into the Bible? God is willing to protect his word, and as LDS, we believe he has. We do not believe he did it in the way you claim. If his word was protected perfectly in its current form, then why has any book been removed from the Bible since its inception? Why have books been moved around and placed in a different order? Probably because MAN was handling it. MAN was deciding what to do with it. What have we been saying about MAN? That his tendency is to want to sin? So, MAN is handling God’s word with the intent to commit sin. And yet, no sin ever happened in thousands of years of MAN handling it with a sinless nature that not one single person according to you could ever overcome. Yet you choose to believe that MAN did nothing to corrupt the word.. You choose to lay aside the warning of Jeremiah. Good for you. At least you are showing some of that “blind faith” now.

  38. 39 shematwater
    April 21, 2012 at 4:32 am

    ECHO

    “That proves that nobody inside the LDS Church really knows God”

    Actually, it only proves a possibility, as what we interpret could be true, and what you interpret could be false. Your reasoning is faulty.

    “What does that leave you? Well nothing really.”

    It leaves you nothing. It leaves me with the direct revelation from God to reveal truth and to tell me exactly where and how the Bible was corrupted.
    In this your reasoning only works if you deny God’s power to reveal truth to man through personal revelation, just as he revealed it to Moses. Because your faith denies God this power (or at least has no faith that he will exercise it) you are left with nothing if there is even the hint of error in the Bible. We, on the other hand, have no trouble with there being error, because we can go directly to the source to understand what was originally meant.

    Now, I will state that I have found very few points in the Bible that I would call corruptions. The biggest problem is not that false doctrine has crept in, but that true doctrine has been taken out.

    “Right. I agree. And Mormonism can cause corruption in the reading of the scriptures and thus cause many to fall to Hell.”

    Actually, I would agree. This has happened. But it has happened in every single Christian church as well. So what is your point?

    “A complete apostasy is completely unscriptural when you take the bible as a whole.”

    Wrong. It is one of the clearest doctrines ever taught in the Bible, but false and corrupt leaders have given you a corrupt understanding of the Bible, entrapping you in darkness so that you are unable to see the truth.

    And please note that we do take the entire Bible, as a whole. We ignore nothing.

  39. 40 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 8:10 am

    To just slightly expound upon shems last statement: Martin Luther removed evtire books from the bible, and you are now in a church named after him.
    Joseph Smith added corrections to the Bible, and you call him a false prophet..
    You wonder why we had to add stuff back in, maybe it is because your founder took them out.

  40. April 21, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Josh said: ““Josh, maybe it was Jeremiah 8:8 that was handled falsely by the scribes. Did you ever think of that?”
    Then BY DEFAULT the BIBLE HAS ERRORS. Did you think of that?”

    I was pretending to be Mormon and taking your point one step further from a Mormon perspective. *smile*

    I personally believe the Bible is inerrant.

  41. 42 JBR
    April 21, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Josh said (asked):
    “You don’t think he (Satan) could have worked something just a little twisted into the Bible?”

    A: No. Those who entertain such possibilties do so because they despise God’s Word and are listening to satanical lies. All false teachers, all false religions, all cults, all those hate God have one common starting point…. there must be something wrong \ missing from the Bible.

    You acknowledge God being powerfull, yet not powerfull enough to protect his word. Jesus reveals that his word will never pass away, yet the opposite is just the foundational building block on which Mormonism begins on.

    No Josh… you, Shem and Kate will not get what Mormonism is promising but only wrath and judgement of guilty.

  42. April 21, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Shem said: “It leaves you nothing. It leaves me with the direct revelation from God to reveal truth and to tell me exactly where and how the Bible was corrupted.”

    It leaves you wide open to receive direct revelation from the devil pretending to be God. You haven’t yet given me an answer as to how you can tell the difference.

    Shem said: “Now, I will state that I have found very few points in the Bible that I would call corruptions. The biggest problem is not that false doctrine has crept in, but that true doctrine has been taken out.”

    That’s the devil’s lie and you have fallen for it. How else can the devil introduce his soul destroying doctrine but by getting you to first believe that the Bible is insufficient. How can you protect yourself from that and be certain that you are not believing the devil’s lies?

    Shem said: “And please note that we do take the entire Bible, as a whole. We ignore nothing.”

    A complete apostasy is completely unscriptural when you take the bible as a whole.

  43. April 21, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Josh said: “To just slightly expound upon shems last statement: Martin Luther removed evtire books from the bible, and you are now in a church named after him.”

    Martin Luther did not remove entire books from the Bible.

  44. 45 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    JBR this is a downright lie, or you did not read my entire post: “You acknowledge God being powerfull, yet not powerfull enough to protect his word.” I said his word was protected, just not in the way you present it.

    “It leaves you wide open to receive direct revelation from the devil pretending to be God. You haven’t yet given me an answer as to how you can tell the difference.”
    Does what comes of this revelation lead to good or evil? We believe that the good the LDS faith has done is a whole shows nothing but good. Can you show an example of our “evil” works?

    “Martin Luther did not remove entire books from the Bible.”
    Then we do you not use the Catholic Bible? There are more books in it, and they havent been added since Luther pulled away from the Catholics.

  45. April 21, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    I have been doing a little reading on Martin Luther….

    “Luther’s other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[202] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but “the devil’s people”: he referred to them with violent, vile language.[203][204] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews’ property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these “poisonous envenomed worms” would be forced into labour or expelled “for all time”.[205] In Robert Michael’s view, Luther’s words “We are at fault in not slaying them” amounted to a sanction for murder.[206] Luther’s “recommendations” for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the “sharp mercy” of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to “false gods”.[207]

    Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[208] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on “that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition.”[209] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther’s anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[208] Luther’s influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[210]

    Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany.[211] According to the prevailing view among historians,[212] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[213] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an “ideal underpinning” for the National Socialists’ attacks on Jews.[214] Reinhold Lewin writes that “whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther.” According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

    And….it seems all sects have stuff in their history they have to digest….I’m curious why LDS are attacked by Lutherans here…I would find this information is very difficult to explain.

  46. 47 JBR
    April 21, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Josh…
    Oh .. so God protected his word just enough so you can hide behind that shadow and sound “christian” but not entirely so through Mormonism, you can throw in what God absent mindedly forgot to reveal despite Jesus’ claim that he revealed everything neccessary.

    The fact is the Bible (which is the only scriptures) is what we have today because it is God protected it for those who receive it with joy. For in them we have God’s desired revelation necessary for by which we can live with him ( the equilivent as Mormonism’s exaltation)

  47. April 21, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    Josh said: “Does what comes of this revelation lead to good or evil? We believe that the good the LDS faith has done is a whole shows nothing but good. Can you show an example of our “evil” works?”

    Having requirements for salvation.
    Having requirements for forgiveness.

    Josh said: “Then we do you not use the Catholic Bible? There are more books in it, and they havent been added since Luther pulled away from the Catholics.”

    You are refferring to the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was cannonized after Luther at the Council of Trent in the 1500’s to support their teaching on purgatory.

  48. 49 shematwater
    April 21, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    ECHO

    “It leaves you wide open to receive direct revelation from the devil pretending to be God. You haven’t yet given me an answer as to how you can tell the difference.”

    How does one know the difference between joy and sorrow, or pleasure and pain. There is only one way, and that is through experience.
    To give a better analogy, my brother was diagnosed with asthma in his early thirties. He had gone through thirty years of his life believing that he was healthy and that his breathing was normal. Then he received his first dose of medication and what a revelation it was. All that he had thought to be normal mented away and he knew that he had truly been ill his entire life.
    The difference between God and Satan is the same. Once you have experienced the power, peace, and joy of God, the deception of Satan appears as nothing, and you can easily distinguish the two. It is only people who either never knew the presence of God, or who have let themselves forget his presence that can be deceived by Satan.

    “You are refferring to the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was cannonized after Luther at the Council of Trent in the 1500′s to support their teaching on purgatory.”

    Actually they were always part of the Canon, but since Martin Luther removed them there had arrisen questions concerning them. The Counsel of Trent did not canonize the books of the Apocrypha, but reafirmed their Canonization that had been from the early days of the Christian church.

    JBR

    You will never understand our faith becuase you constantly try to twist it into somehting it is not.

    “You acknowledge God being powerfull, yet not powerfull enough to protect his word.”

    First, we have never denied his power to preserve his word. What we denied is that he exercised this power in regards to the Bible. There is a difference.
    We obviously believe he has the power to preserve his word as we believe that he kept the Book of Mormon preserved for nearly 1400 years in perfect condition, waiting for the proper time to bring it forth. We also recognize that he preserved the Small Plates of Nephi (1 Nephi through Omni) in their entirety for nearly 1000 years, until they were brought to Mormon to be inserted into the record he was abridging.
    To say we don’t believe he has this power is to show a lack of understanding of our faith.

    “Jesus reveals that his word will never pass away”

    And we believe this completely. In fact, I would say we actaully believe this more than you, because we do not limit this to God’s word had in the Bible, but believe that all his words will be fulfilled, whether we currently have those words or not.
    What we do not believe is that the written record of that word would not pass away or become corrupt. So, we can say that if God declares something to be true, or that a certain thing will happen, that cannot be disputed. However, we can also say that just because you claim God said something does not mean he actually said it, and so what you claim he said can be disputed.

    “you can throw in what God absent mindedly forgot to reveal despite Jesus’ claim that he revealed everything neccessary.”

    Wrong again. God never forgot to reveal anything that needed to be revealed, and the LDS church has added nothing to what he did reveal. What we have done is to restore what he had revealed in the past that had latter been lost. There is a big difference here.
    Though I have to say your twisting of words and doctrine is sounding a little more comical everyday.

  49. 50 joshtried
    April 23, 2012 at 6:14 am

    JBR: according to one reference, “The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.”
    First of all, in 170-363 years, you dont thing something could happen where man changed something? I understand your belief that God CAN protect his word. I am saying the same thing, God CAN protect his word. The question is “Did he protect his word” by keeping all bad men from the Bible.
    Second, if Luther came and removed books, then only 2 things are possible. Things were added by the Catholics that were NOT scripture, or Luther removed things that WERE scripture. Either way, something bad happened to the bible. Pick your poison.

    Echo: “You are referring to the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was canonized after Luther at the Council of Trent in the 1500′s to support their teaching on purgatory.”
    According to my reference above, the Apocrypha was seen as authoritative by AT LEAST 397 AD. Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546)
    Martin Luther Came along 1100 years later and decided these books were no longer authoritative.

    Echo, we have showed you several times were there are requirements. Do you deny that you are required to believe in Christ for salvation (going to heaven)? Do you deny that you must ask for forgiveness in order for it to take effect in your life?


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