19
Apr
12

“No more deposition to do evil”

Lesson 16 of the Gospel Doctrine Class on the Book of Mormon covers Mosiah 4-6.  These chapters contain King Benjamin’s speech and the people’s reaction to it.  One thing they said was that the Spirit had worked a mighty change in their hearts with the result that “we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually”. (Mosiah 5:2)

My dictionary defines disposition as “a prevailing tendency, mood, or inclination”.  Therefore this says they didn’t even have an inclination to do evil; rather they were inclined to do good continually.  I think we would all agree that sin is evil.  Jesus also talked about how sin begins in our heart and thoughts.  James talks about how our desires give birth to sin.  Therefore if someone claims to have no more disposition to do evil but only good continually, isn’t it reasonable to say that they are claiming that they are no longer sinning?

I, for one, can’t make the claim that I have no more disposition to do evil but only good continually.  I’m far from being inclined to only do good.  Before I even realize I’m doing it, I think something bad about the person who doesn’t go when the light turns green because they are chatting on their cell phone. When someone cuts in line, my jaw immediately clenches as I bit my tongue trying not to say what I’m thinking.  Honestly, there is no way that I could claim for even one hour that I had no disposition for evil.

Therefore I was interested in seeing how the teacher’s guide would handle this verse.  In this regard, it asks a couple of interesting questions.  First it asks:  “how might our lives and relationships be affected if we ‘had no more disposition to do evil’?  I could maybe see that being a hypothetical question.  But reading on it’s apparent that it’s not hypothetical.  Because then it asks, “Once we have experienced a ‘might change in our hearts (Mosiah 5:2), what challenges do we face in maintaining this change?  How can we meet these challenges?”  There it talks about actually experiencing that mighty change.  This is pictured as an attainable goal! I can only assume by that that there are members of the LDS Church who right now claim that they have no more disposition to do evil but to good continually.

Until the day I die I will sin.  Until the day I die I will have dispositions to do evil.  That doesn’t make me happy.  But that is a fact of life.  It’s a fact that no matter how hard I try not to, I will still sin.  But it’s also a fact that I am not worried in the slightest that, because of this, I won’t live forever with heavenly Father.  I’m not worried about that because Jesus’ blood cleanses me completely.  I’m not worried about that because I am saved fully, completely, entirely based on what Jesus has done for us.  Because of Jesus, even though I am still in a sinful state, before God I have the status of a saint.  And that is all that counts!

 

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119 Responses to ““No more deposition to do evil””


  1. April 19, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    I find it so sad that all you can seem to do lately is find little nit-picky things. We believe that if we fully come to Christ, we began to desire to not be sinful…wow such a horrible concept. You would have that if we DESIRE not to sin, which is the point of this passage, then we are wrong for that desire….hmmm…

    So how do you explain this verse: 2 Corinthians 7:1 NLV
    “Because we have these promises, dear friends, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that can defile our body or spirit. And let us work toward complete holiness because we fear God.”

  2. 2 MNVikingsGirl
    April 19, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    I completely agree with Pastor Cares! St. Paul writes in Romans 3:12, “…there is NONE that doeth good, no, not ONE.” How can we even think for a second that our works are good in Heavenly Father’s eyes when we are ALL horrible sinners. Paul continues in 7:18, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” All thanks be to Jesus who saved me from my horrible, sinful life! Jesus was perfect for me!

  3. April 19, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Also, how do these scriptures differ?

    2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

    Ephesians 4:22-24 “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

    Mosiah 5:2 “And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.”

    Please note that in each of these it is after coming to Christ and having the Spirit work in you.

  4. April 19, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    By the way, another thought. A clearer definition for disposition is “a habitual inclination.”

    Can habits be broken? How? If one has gotten in the habit of being disagreeable around others, can that person change? What are the requirements for changing a habit?

    I perused some Christian sites to get an idea on how other Christians would go about changing habit so that they no longer had a “habitual inclination” to do evil. Here is one I found:

    John MacArthur (author)

    “A bad habit is usually connected to wrong beliefs and attitudes. We should not want to change a habit only because it is embarrassing, expensive, unhealthy, or makes us feel guilty–rather we should want God’s greater purpose for our life to be fulfilled. Until we deal with the underlying wrong beliefs that weaken our resistance to the bad habit, we will have only limited success in overcoming it.

    The Christian must see that bad habits are ultimately spiritual issues. We must not hesitate to call them sins. And we need to realize that the means of sanctification described in Scripture (chiefly the Word of God and prayer) are essential for overcoming such habits.

    We are responsible for our own sin–including those sins “which so easily beset us.” The fact that we do something wrong habitually does not relieve us of responsibility. On the contrary, it may make the sin all the worse. So we must take personal responsibility for our own habits and not shrink from calling them sin.

    Sinful habits are not insurmountable problems for the Christian. After all, the Holy Spirit indwells us and is working to conform us to the image of Christ. And if God be for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:31) Furthermore, Galatians 5:16 says that if we “walk by the Spirit, [we] will not carry out the desire of the flesh.” And 1 Corinthians 10:13 is a promise that God will not permit us to be tempted beyond our ability. If we make use of the resources provided by God through His Spirit and His Word, we can attack any habit knowing that we can win.

    Let me make some practical suggestions for overcoming bad habits that I think you will find helpful.

    First of all, remember that sin begins in the mind. James 1:14-15 compares a person falling into sin to a fish or animal that is caught with bait. It sees the bait, desires it, and is trapped in the process of grabbing it. Likewise, sins that ensnare us begin in the mind.

    The person who steals first thinks about the thing he wants. He then thinks of a plan for getting it. After he has schemed in his mind, he takes it. He could have stopped the sin in his mind before it became completed in his action. That’s why Scripture commands us to renew our minds (Romans 12:2), to think about good things (Philippians 4:8), and to meditate on the Word (Psalm 1:2).

    Defeating a habit also requires changes in lifestyle. We are to make no provision for the flesh (Romans 13:14). The person who wants to stop smoking should throw away all his cigarettes and not buy any more; the person struggling with sexual sin should get rid of any suggestive materials in his possession. Avoid the company of those who have the same problem (1 Corinthians 15:33), and avoid the places and circumstances which tempt you.

    Finally, don’t try to battle a bad habit alone. Develop relationships with more mature Christians who will encourage and support you (Galatians 6:2). Spend time in prayer with them. Ask them to “check up on you” regularly, and be honest about your failures (James 5:16).

    Biblical change is not just turning away from sin; it is turning toward righteousness. The person who lies must speak the truth (Ephesians 4:25). One who steals must not only stop stealing, he must work and give to others (verse 28); and one whose language is unwholesome must learn to edify others (verse 29). Do not just stop sinning–start doing what is right. The good habits you build will replace the sinful ones.”

    Mark or others: Please explain how this is any different of a teaching than what is in this post?

  5. 5 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    So, we follow Satan now for thinking God has the power to help us not want to sin. Good job, Mark. You have just condemned every Christian on earth.

  6. 6 joshtried
    April 19, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    (forgot to follow)

  7. April 19, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    Just incase that didn’t agree with you, here is an exerpt from a Lutheran site called riverpower.org about changing bad habits:

    “The person who entrusts his or her life to Jesus Christ receives, not only forgiveness for our sin, but victory over slavery to sinful behavior. Put differently, Jesus not only pays our sin debt so that we can be forgiven by God and go to heaven after our physical body dies,

    but also provides the power, through the Holy Spirit, for good conduct and great joy while here on earth.

    A person who places his or her trust in Christ is set free from slavery to bad habits and a lifestyle that is destructive to himself and others.”

    Again…how is this any different than what you claim is wrong about our teaching?

  8. April 19, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    And why would Jesus tell us in Galations 5:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”….

    He tells us that if WE “walk in the spirit…we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”

    I believe Him…

  9. April 19, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    I’m hoping others can see here that no matter what things you try to find wrong with what LDS teach, it is all very Biblically sound.

  10. April 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    May we follow Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. His words are true. He is the Way. Believe Him and do as He asked us to do.

    We CAN be filled with His Spirit and have no more disposition to do evil….

    I am thankful for the Atonement that makes that possible.

  11. 11 andersonddj
    April 20, 2012 at 12:31 am

    Kate and Josh,

    I think the point that Mark was trying to make, is that none of us will ever be sin free in the flesh here on earth and his concern with this teaching is that some people may feel like they never measure up because they are not perfectly sin free. They may feel like they are doing well for a time and then get into an argument with somebody or think a not so nice thought. Christian or not, we will always fall short of God’s perfect standards. It is not biblical for a person to sin habitually and continually as a lifestyle and still be a believer, but as Christians we will all stumble here and there. All of us have weaknesses and can fall into sin, even if we don’t want to. For the truly converted, continuing to live sinfully is not an option. Because our conversion results in a completely new nature, our desire is to no longer live in sin. Yes, we still sin, but instead of wallowing in it as we once did, we now hate it and wish to be delivered from it. The idea of “taking advantage” of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf by continuing to live sinfully is unthinkable. If a person believes himself to be a Christian and still desires to live the old, sinful life, he has reason to doubt his salvation. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. We confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with the God who loves us and has already forgiven us. It is the perfect sin-free life that all believers look forward to after this earthly life.

  12. 12 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 3:10 am

    MARK

    “Therefore if someone claims to have no more disposition to do evil but only good continually, isn’t it reasonable to say that they are claiming that they are no longer sinning?”

    No it is not reasonable. It is never reasonable to assume two words have the same meaning when they do not. A disposition is a prevailing tendency, not a complete state of being.
    Thus, these people are proclaiming their complete conversion and aversion to sin as a consequence of that. They are not saying they no longer sin, but that they no longer want to sin.

    As such, your entire argument, which is based on this faulty assumption, completely collapses.

    ANDERSON

    “Because our conversion results in a completely new nature, our desire is to no longer live in sin.”

    How is this any different than “we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.”
    Our point is that Mark’s point is groundless. Anyone who thinks that they “may never measure up because they are not perfectly sin free” does not understand the scripture.

  13. 13 andersonddj
    April 20, 2012 at 3:43 am

    Hi Shem,

    I wasn’t really trying to argue a point. I was just trying to clarify what Mark may be trying to say. Based on biblical principles, I believe that I can never be perfectly sin free while on this earth. Do I want to be sin free? Absolutely! I want nothing more than to please my Father in heaven. But, I also know that sometimes even though I don’t want to sin (i.e. pride, getting irritated with my kids, etc.), I just can’t always control my flesh. I always fee;l horrible after and ask God for forgiveness. I guess what those of us who are not LDS are trying to understand is if the LDS doctrine is actually teaching that you can be perfectly sin free or if they teach that the goal is to try to do good continually, while at the same teaching that if we do happen to stumble, we are forgiven. As a believer, I know that there are areas in my life that I need to work and I continually try to improve on those areas. Do I mess up? Lots of times. I feel awful in my heart and always bring it to God. I know that I will always be forgiven, but this does not make me think that it is okay to sin. Sorry if I am rambling. I have been reading this blog and the comments for a while and I have noticed that sometimes the comments can become quite snarky on all sides of the issues being discussed. My intent is never to come across that way.

  14. April 20, 2012 at 4:17 am

    Andersonddj,

    The point I was trying to make is that Mark takes a stand against what was taught by us, saying that the lesson is making people feel like they have to measure up? Yet, I pulled lessons from other christian sites stating the same lesson as well as Biblical support for the message given in the lesson Mark condemns. My question to you is this…why is it that the LDS lesson is so terrible and the others, as well as the scriptures, not.

    I think Marks whole purpose on this site is to make sure the rest of you think that our whole purpose is to make people feel like they can never measure up. If that is true, then Jesus, Himself, taught the same thing.

    The LDS teach that we can be perfect through and only through Christ’s Atonement. What you hear from others here is that they want to convince the rest of you that we do not teach that…no matter how much we argue it. So I would hope you can understand how things can get snarky. It’s hard to be constantly told you teach something you are not teaching.

  15. 15 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 5:46 am

    Anderson: “That includes past, present, and future, big or small” I want to be clear that you are NOT talking about once saved always saved.. And no, it does not include all sin. There is one that is unforgivable, period.

    To this: “I believe that I can never be perfectly sin free while on this earth”, this is a very disheartening statement that can lead down a slippery slope. Once you accept Christ, you are made perfect. No where in the Bible does it say that you WILL sin after accepting Christ, or that you MUST sin after accepting Him.
    Now, the question becomes does being made perfect negate free will. The answer is No, it does not. Just because Christ has made us perfect, does not mean we lose the choice to choose to return to evil. He did his part by making us perfect. We must strive to do our part to maintain perfection. Now, if we dont strive perfectly for perfection, we will still be forgiven if we ask. Does this mean that we can turn from God and do whatever we want? No, we must still try. We must “work out our salvation”, through Christ. It is very helpful to us to strive for perfection. To illustrate a point, i give this analogy:
    There once was a math student. One day, he slept in, way past the appointed start time of his math class. By the time he arrived, everyone was leaving. He was lucky to get the homework at all. It was 2 math problems. This was all he knew about them, they were math and he was to solve them. He spent the time from then until his next math class working as hard as he could on the problems. Class did eventually come around, and the student was only able to answer 1 of the 2 questions. He got to the class early, and he pleaded with the teacher not to fail him. He explained how his clock had not gone off the week before, and so he was not in class to be able to know how to work either of the problems. He then showed his work to the teacher.
    The teacher was down right amazed, and asked where the student had learned to do the one problem that he answered. The student said that he had just been working on the problem all week. The teacher was again amazed, and then began to explain what the student had missed in class the week before. What the teacher taught that week was how for years, no one had been able to answer these 2 problems. For years, numerous scholars had attempted to solve the problems, obviously to no avail. The student turned and said “If i knew that, i would have never tried to solve the problems in the first place!”.
    This is how are lives are. We are told what we can and cannot do our entire lives. We are told by others that we cannot remain perfect, we are told we must sin continuously (my, how misery really does love company). The Bible does not teach this. It does teach there is only one that can be completely perfect. It does not say that any person must sin more than once. Once is enough, as the wage of that sin is death. There are no multiple life sentences, no multiple death penalties. Once we have committed our sin, and have turned to Christ to accept us and forgive us, we ARE perfect from that time forth. How glorious to know that we do not have to sin any more, to know that Christ is with us, and would love for us to be perfect from that point forward. WILL we sin? Maybe. Christ will still accept us (unless we blaspheme). Do we have to sin? No, no we do not. And how thankful i am for that. I dont have to any more!!!!!!

  16. 16 JBR
    April 20, 2012 at 6:02 am

    What Mark’s intention is quite simple:
    Compare what Mormonism claims as the truth against what is in the Bible..then to speak to the truth.

    It so happens that with every lesson Mormonism is having.. it will either contain some truth mixed with contradictions or be all out contradictions to the Bible. That is not Mark’s fault that biggest opponent of Mormonism is Jesus of the Bible.

    As Jesus revealed: “No bad tree bears good fruit”. Lesson after lesson, Mark is examining the bad fruit of Mormonism in the hope it will lead some to the good fruit that is revealed by Jesus of the Bible.

    But as we know, Jesus revealed that children of the devil do not and can not hear what he revealed which is in the Bible and those who do hear what is revealed in the Bible are children of God.

    It is not by accident that the children from God only source the bible as the authoritative source for salvation, while those who are childen of the devil do not.
    Our hope is that the third person of the Triune God opens the hearts of the lost, those who view Jesus as a co-savior (at best) ” after all you can do”

  17. 17 markcares
    April 20, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    There is a difference between commands and statements. Yes, the Bible commands us to pursue holiness and perfection but there are no statements of people in the Bible who say they actually accomplished that. In fact, the Bible says, because we still have our sinful flesh, we won’t be able to accomplish that. As I have stated before, one of the main reasons God gives us those commands is to bring us to that very realization. By the law is the knowledge of sin – Romans 3:20.
    To clarify – as I stated in my original post – I’m not happy that I sin. I don’t want to sin. But I still sin. That is why I need to depend entirely on what Jesus has done for me. I believe that my worthiness to live eternally with Heavenly Father doesn’t depend on anything I do – no temple ordinances, nothing. It depends entirely on what Jesus did for me.

  18. 18 andersonddj
    April 20, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    Oh my goodness Josh!! Nobody is saying that we believe we MUST sin, but that even as believers, the fact is, we WILL sin. I agree with both you and Kate that we are made perfect through Christ, but that does not mean that won’t have the tendency to sin.

    1 John 1:8-10

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

    The following, from North Point Ministries explains my understanding of sin:

    “Everybody sins, don’t they? But when Christians sin, it can be a great source of doubt and confusion about the reality of their salvation. Imagine it. You’ve become a Christian and turned your life over to God. You’ve received forgiveness for your sins. You’ve exchanged your old habits for a brand new life in Christ. You don’t fully comprehend this reality or know how it’s supposed to work, but you’re excited about the future. The old is over and gone; behold, the new has come. There’s just one question. Why am I still sinning? Does that mean that it didn’t take? Do I need to start all over? Will God continue to forgive me … this time … again?

    If we’re honest, all Christians struggle with sin. Frankly, it can be a great concern for everyone. Non-Christians often think it’s hypocritical. After all, why can’t religious people just practice what they preach? Or if you’re a new believer, you may feel particularly defeated. Perhaps you were hoping to be finished wrestling with temptation. You were hoping that becoming a Christian would make all that go away.

    But the reality is that while becoming a Christian instantly changes our eternal destiny, it can take some time to change the rest of us. Our future hope is secure, but God is still at work in our lives to transform us. So we live in a state of ongoing transformation until that day comes. We cling with faith to the hope of full restoration; meanwhile, we sort out the tension between the two worlds. The apostle Paul captured the struggle well: “For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (Romans 7:18b-19 TNIV).

    Does that mean our lives will be hopeless and defeated this side of eternity? Heavens no. The Bible teaches that when someone becomes a Christian, he or she is no longer a SLAVE to sin. In other words, Christians have the freedom and ability to choose not to sin. But we still choose poorly sometimes, don’t we? Ignoring an inner conviction or the wise counsel of trusted friends, we simply opt for doing things our own way. And as the saying goes, some habits die hard. Perhaps this is why weakness, grace, and perseverance are central themes of the New Testament.

    The important thing to remember in this dynamic is that being a Christian was never supposed to be about our ability to be good in the first place. In fact, the main message of Christianity is that it’s impossible to be good enough to earn God’s favor. That’s why our motivation for not sinning shouldn’t be grounded in how well we are performing. Instead, we must first recognize God’s gracious willingness to overlook our waywardness, even when we know better. Then, our motivation and ability to change comes when we surrender our lives to him and allow his Spirit – in his timing – to work in and through us.

    Becoming a Christian has never meant that a person will completely shed the human propensity to sin. This fact has been well established by followers of Christ for thousands of years. It’s true that living in relationship with God results in improvements in character and behavior over time. BUT WHEN CHRISTIANS FAIL, IT’S JUST A REMINDER THAT ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF OUR FULL ESTEEM. Our only righteous act is to cling humbly to the forgiveness God so graciously offers us through Christ.”

    Kate, I hope you are not under the impression that I was just calling the LDS believer’s comments snarky. I have seen it with the others as well. My goal is to be kind and compassionate and respectful to everyone in hopes that I don’t offend. Although we all may have differences in beliefs, I hope that we can point out those differences with love and at times we have to just agree to disagree. I do understand your frustration with being told what you believe. Things could definitely be worded better. It would be better for those of us that not LDS to ask if our understanding of your beliefs is correct rather than just telling you what you believe.

    Peace and God bless to all.

  19. April 20, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    You see….just because Mark says that the statement “no more disposition to do evil” means they were perfect, you are all jumping on his bandwagon and going with that. The fact is, I have explained to you that what it means is we no longer “want” to sin…that with the Spirit in us, we our desire is to no longer sin, and that the people who the scripture is talking about felt that way because they turned to Christ wholly and no longer had the habitual inclination.
    I have shown you lessons from other Christian sites explaining the same concept that once you have turned to Christ, you desire to turn from the old self and let Christ in you…so you have “no more disposition to do evil.” Yet, you guys keep going with Mark’s statement as if what he says is scripture. You seem to give him more power than God, Himself.
    Pointing out a difference that is not really a difference and then arguing it as if it is, is really ridiculous. It’s very hard not to get snarky when that happens.

  20. 20 andersonddj
    April 20, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Kate, I hope you are not talking to me. My purpose was just to clarify any misunderstanding on my end. I am not jumping on any bandwagon. It sounds to me that your beliefs are inline with my beliefs. I am not giving any power to Mark. My intention was just to get an understanding of how this teaching is being taught. Many DO think that the LDS belief is that you CAN be perfect in this life. I am grateful for you clarifying our misunderstandings. Just please know that everyone who comments on here is not out to attack.

  21. 21 andersonddj
    April 20, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    I have to clarify: It sounds to me that your beliefs are inline with my beliefs on this topic.

  22. April 20, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Thank you andersonddj. I didn’t mean to make is sound like I was speaking to you. I meant those who do jump on Marks bandwagon. I really appreciate that you read and listen to our explanation. I feel many times we try to explain our position and all we get back from Mark and some of the others is that we do not believe what we say we believe and that can get a bit irritating. Thank you again.

  23. April 20, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    When I think of the phrase: “no more disposition to do evil” One of the things I think about is that this is a person who never personally attacks another person with unkind/unloving thoughts, words or actions regardless of what is said or done to them. This is a person who protects the reputation of others, who never gives false testimony against his neighbor. This is a person who makes a clear distinction between false doctrine and the people who believe in false doctrine. This is a person who is big on listening to viewpoints that are not their own and who desires to learn both sides. This is a person who loves and respects others even when disagreeing on doctrine. This is a person who desires to and takes the time to understand what the other person truly means when they speak. This is someone who doesn’t get cranky, snarky or upset when someone gets their views wrong but instead listens intently to all that is said incase they themselves are wrong.

    Anyone who is not continually and constantly doing all these things has a disposition to do evil.

  24. April 20, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Echo:

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matt 7:3 NIV

    I will freely admit that I can get snarky when we constantly explain to you what we believe and what we get back is not someone who “desires to and takes the time to understand what the other person truly means when they speak.”

    And, honestly, how do you expect me to listen and try to understand an explanation of what I believe and not defend it when it is wrong. And don’t say you listen to our defense, you only twist and turn words until we are right back to Marks same statement about what we believe.

    I find it so interesting that you guys can bear false witness against us (LDS teachings) and feel like you are right with God. It is only YOUR BELIEF that we have a false gospel…No matter how hard you try, you can never refute how the Bible is completely in line with what we teach. You say we twist it to make it so, but that is not even close to true. You are just as guilty of your own interpretations…only, you refuse to look at the context of who was being spoken to, when, where, and why….as we have shown over and over again with Paul and the people stuck worshiping the mosaic law.

    I do feel bad when I lose my cool with you guys, but you are just as responsible for treating the topics in the inaccurate and twisted way that you do to incite us.

  25. 25 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    ECHO

    Your understanding of the phrase and the understanding of the scriptures are not the same. Everyone has their weaknesses, and a person whose weakness is easy irratibility may display many of the characteristics you say do not go along with this phrase, but they still have no desire to do evil, and thus their disposition is not to do evil.

    ANDERSON

    I understand your position, and I am grateful for it. However, I don’t think you understood Mark’s intentions. He was not expressing concern that some people may have a negative response to this doctrine. He was claiming the doctrine itself was one of self-righteousness that contradicts what the Bible teachs. He was claiming that this verse in Mosiah teaches a complete sinlessness, and then declaring the falseness of the doctrine.
    Our response was to simply point out that what he said concerning this verse was false, and thus his argument that it teaches a false doctrine is in itself false.

    As to sinlessness, we read in Genesis that “Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations.” (6: 9) We also read that Job was “a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil” (1:1, 8; 2: 3). Paul spoke to those that were perfect (1 Corinthians 2:6 and Philipians 3: 15). You will note that in Philipians 3: 12 Paul states that he has not yet reached perfection personally, and thus we see that he is not speaking about the justification that comes to the faithful through the atonement, but rather a sinless perfection that one can attain in this life.
    Given this evidence we do believe that it is possible for a person to attain a measure of perfect sinlessness in this life. It is only through the atonement and the grace of God that such is possible, but if we strive for it, and work out our salavation, it is attainable in this life. It is not required in this life, but it is possible.
    This in no way means that we believe we can reach the same perfection as Christ. He never sinned in his entire life. We all have. What we believe is that we can reach a point when we will never sin again.

  26. 26 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

    This does not say if you claim to be perfect after accepting Christ that you are wrong. I accept Christ, BECAUSE i have sinned. So does just about every other person that accepts Christ. If i had absolutely no sin, i would not need to accept Christ. No one is saying “I have no sin”, they are saying “I have no MORE sin”. There is a very big difference.

  27. 27 joshtried
    April 20, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Echo: “no more disposition to do evil” One of the things I think about is that this is a person who never personally attacks another person with unkind/unloving thoughts,

    The definition of “disposition” has been posted. perhaps you should re-read this definition and compare it with your statement.

  28. April 20, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Kate said: “Echo: Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matt 7:3 NIV”

    Actually, I was looking at the plank in all of our eyes, yours and mine, Christians and Mormons. But you are always very busy looking for the speck in ours aren’t you. In fact, that’s pretty much all you do here on this blog.

    Kate said: “I will freely admit that I can get snarky when we constantly explain to you what we believe ”

    It is good to see you finally admit your disposition towards evil.

    Kate said: “and what we get back is not someone who “desires to and takes the time to understand what the other person truly means when they speak.”

    Kate, take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of ours.

    Kate said: “And, honestly, how do you expect me to listen and try to understand an explanation of what I believe and not defend it when it is wrong. And don’t say you listen to our defense, you only twist and turn words until we are right back to Marks same statement about what we believe.”

    Take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of ours. As I have stated before, you are entitled to your opinion of Mormon Doctrine and I am equally entitled to my opinion of Mormon doctrine. While you and Shem and Josh may have an opinion of Mormon Doctrine, your opinion is not necessarily official Mormon Doctrine.

    Kate said: “I find it so interesting that you guys can bear false witness against us (LDS teachings) and feel like you are right with God. It is only YOUR BELIEF that we have a false gospel…No matter how hard you try, you can never refute how the Bible is completely in line with what we teach. You say we twist it to make it so, but that is not even close to true. You are just as guilty of your own interpretations…only, you refuse to look at the context of who was being spoken to, when, where, and why….as we have shown over and over again with Paul and the people stuck worshiping the mosaic law.”

    We believe these same things about you Kate. So as you can see, stating these things doesn’t prove anything. They only provoke contention. Something you are very good at and desire to do with all your heart.

  29. April 20, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Shem said: “Your understanding of the phrase and the understanding of the scriptures are not the same. Everyone has their weaknesses, and a person whose weakness is easy irratibility may display many of the characteristics you say do not go along with this phrase, but they still have no desire to do evil, and thus their disposition is not to do evil.”

    Shem, your understanding of the phrase and the understanding of the scriptures are not the same. Weakness is caused by disposition to do evil to begin with.

  30. April 20, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    “While you and Shem and Josh may have an opinion of Mormon Doctrine, your opinion is not necessarily official Mormon Doctrine.”

    Actually….we live our religion, you don’t… we know our Doctrine…you on the other hand have an opinion, but don’t state things as an opinion, you state them as fact and then work with this “ministry for money” to fund a drive to pull good LDS people away from their faith, make them doubt the words of Christ. And you sit here high and mighty as though you are setting me straight.

  31. April 20, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Kate, and the way you live your religion is one of the reasons why we are here trying to rescue people from it.

  32. 32 shematwater
    April 20, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    ECHO

    “We believe these same things about you Kate. So as you can see, stating these things doesn’t prove anything.”

    I find this a rather funny remark coming from you, or any other non-LDS on this blog because you have constantly done the same thing, but refused to admit it. You have frequently used these same arguments without any hint of acknowledging that they could be applied both ways.
    For instance, you once asked if we had considered if you were sent by God to give us truth. This can just as easily be said by us to you.

    “While you and Shem and Josh may have an opinion of Mormon Doctrine, your opinion is not necessarily official Mormon Doctrine.”

    We don’t have opinions. We have doctrine. Fact is not opinion. Actually we do have an opinion. Our opinion is that our doctrine is true and your isn’t.
    I cannot have an opinion on whether the church teaches a given doctrine. Either they do or they do not. There is no opinion involved. I can have an opinion as to the validity of the doctrine, as to whether or not it is true doctrine; but not that it is doctrine.
    In the same way you do not have an opinion as to what the doctrine is. What you profess to be your opinion is not an opinion, but an attempt to claim factual information concerning the doctrine of the LDS church; which you then try to hide in the disguise of opinion.

    “Weakness is caused by disposition to do evil to begin with.”

    You are again wrong. Weakness is what prevents our disposition from fully controling our actions. If our disposition was to do evil than doing it would not be a weakness, for it would not hinder or impare our ability to do what we want. A weakness is only a weakness when it prevents or hinders a desired action.
    Thus, a man who is trying to have a civil discussion may display a weakness in sarcasm. However, that same weakness becomes a strength when he does stand up comedy.
    A weakness in sin is only a weakness if we are striving to do good, for only then does it hinder our desired action.

  33. 33 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 3:23 am

    Kate, and the way you live your religion is one of the reasons why we are here trying to rescue people from it.

    I am curious Echo, are you saying the same about me? The way I live MY religion is the reason you are trying to rescue people? There are people on both sides of this FIGHT that are pulling the same stuff you are accusing Kate of, yet you are not trying to pull people from that religion. Does that not make it a double standard? Your side can have mean things said from it and not lose members, but our side cannot? Good show man, good show.

  34. April 21, 2012 at 3:29 am

    SHem

    “Our opinion is that our doctrine is true and your isn’t.”

    And we have the Word which Jesus said is true and the truth does not change. And the truth is that no one shall be justified by the law but only by grace through faith not by works. And the truth is also that it says in 2 Corinthians:

    “3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. . . . . . 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”

    The facts: (I’m sure you will dispute these facts, but that people can dispute facts doesn’t mean the fact isn’t true – in time the truth will be made plain) I merely point these out to show how many consistencies Christians see between these warnings and what they see in the LDS church.
    1. Like Eve members of the LDS church have been tempted to seek to become a god
    2. the LDS church preaches a Jesus other than the one the apostles preached.
    3. the LDS church preaches a different gospel (one requiring works and obedience to the law which is what the Bible says DOES NOT justify us.)
    4. You receive spirits that have not trusting the Bible which is what the Holy Spirit works through to create and maintain faith.
    5. You have something similar to “super apostles” in that living prophets are “more important” than dead prophets.
    6. You have false apostles that masquarade as Apostles of Christ
    7. You had your angel Morini present a false gospel in a Egyptian language that never existed and translated into an Old English prose that didn’t exist at the time these Eygptian letters were supposed to have been written.
    8. The LDS church has Apostles that teach about pursuing righteousness
    through individual effort, reducing Christ’s righteousness to merely a starting point. And who have compared Christ to a creditor rather than the Savior He is.

  35. April 21, 2012 at 3:34 am

    Correction

    under the facts #4 it should say “. . . spirits that have you not trusting. . . “

  36. 36 shematwater
    April 21, 2012 at 4:20 am

    DAVID

    The facts: (I’m sure you will dispute these facts, but that people can dispute facts doesn’t mean the fact isn’t true – in time the truth will be made plain) I merely point these out to show how many consistencies the LDS see between these warnings and what they see in most Christian churches.
    1. Like Eve most Christians have been blinded by the half truths of Satan that deny the full plan of God in favor of a small portion.
    2. Christians preach a Jesus other than the one the apostles preached.
    3. Christians preach a different gospel (one denying personal responsibility the need for works and obedience to God’s Commands, which the Bible clearly teaches is what justifies us.)
    4. You deny the power of God to speak personally to men, but trust your own understanding to discover truth.
    5. You deny God’s appointed ministers.
    6. You have false ministers that masquarade as teachers of Christ
    7. You had your theologians alter the pure word of God into a confusions that is incomprehensable and did not exist in the teachings of Christ.
    8. Christians have leaders that deny the true scope of the atonement, limiting it power and denying the very words of Christ that call us to participate.

  37. April 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    Shem

    That lays out the two perspectives then. AS, I said the truth will be made plain. I see that you noted the BIble teaches works and obedience justifies us. I know you may have done this before, but could you just quote a few Bible verses that express what you are saying (I know you may cite Jamesd 2 but I have already explained that, but if you want to list it that’s fine – I’ll explain it again). I do have a reason to ask you to do this and it is not to rehash the same old thing.

  38. April 21, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Josh siad: “I am curious Echo, are you saying the same about me?”

    Josh, you are by FAR the nicest Mormon I have spoken with. I like talking to you.

  39. 39 JBR
    April 21, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    bereandave,
    Your list was very accurate and we are thankful that many have come out of the darkness of Mormonism into the light of God’s truth as revealed in the Bible.

  40. April 21, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    “I do have a reason to ask you to do this and it is not to rehash the same old thing.”

    This is laughable. You are asking him to do exactly that. Don’t you think we tire of rehashing the same old thing? Jesus Christ, Himself, said to follow Him, do as He does, and keep the commandments, among other things. The whole Bible is full of examples.

  41. April 21, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Josh said: “I am curious Echo, are you saying the same about me? The way I live MY religion is the reason you are trying to rescue people? There are people on both sides of this FIGHT that are pulling the same stuff you are accusing Kate of, yet you are not trying to pull people from that religion. Does that not make it a double standard? Your side can have mean things said from it and not lose members, but our side cannot? Good show man, good show.”

    The difference between Christians and Mormons is that the Mormons posting here claim Ad nauseam that obedience to the commandments is a requirement, yet all of them, you being the exception so far, don’t obey the very commandments that are required. That in my mind is hypocrisy…

    Romans 2:23 “You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    Christians on the other hand don’t claim that obedience to the commandments is a requirement. We claim we are all sinners in light of those very same commandments. We claim that if obedience to the commandments were a requirement, because of our own sin, we would never meet the requirements. No hypocrisy here.

    Romans 4:6 “David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”

  42. April 21, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Kate said: “This is laughable. You are asking him to do exactly that. Don’t you think we tire of rehashing the same old thing? Jesus Christ, Himself, said to follow Him, do as He does, and keep the commandments, among other things. The whole Bible is full of examples.”

    What is laughable is that you Ad nauseam keep preaching to keep the commandments and that keeping them is a requirement, however I have yet to see you obey the commandments. Most of your posts are stained with sin.

    Romans 2:23 “You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

  43. April 21, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Echo, you are working very hard to make sure I look bad to the readers. I guess that is the only way you can see to try to discredit all I say. You guys speak constantly about how sinful you are, but I show irritation at the blatant falsehoods and disrespect you show us and I am full of sin.

    Honestly, your words do not bother me in this way. It only serves to make YOU look bad.

  44. April 21, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Kate, I believe you are working very hard to make yourself look bad to the readers. I am just acknowledging that fact.

  45. April 21, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Kate said: “You guys speak constantly about how sinful you are, but I show irritation at the blatant falsehoods and disrespect you show us and I am full of sin.”

    You believe obedience to the commandments is a requirement. I don’t.
    You are trying to put a heavy load onto the readers shoulders that you have proven time and again that you yourself cannot carry.

    You do not practice what you preach.

    Mathew 23:2-4 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

  46. 46 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    “Christians on the other hand don’t claim that obedience to the commandments is a requirement. We claim we are all sinners in light of those very same commandments. We claim that if obedience to the commandments were a requirement, because of our own sin, we would never meet the requirements. No hypocrisy here.”

    I am not trying to take a stab at you here Echo, but i really do want to point something out. As we have been discussing: once Christ comes into your life, however he comes, you SHOULD be changed to the point that you are not doing these bad things. As our side has conceded, we will most likely still continue in some, but not in all the things that are bad. Yalls side should be saying the exact same thing at this point. They SHOULD be nicer on this thread. OR, do the 10 commandments mean absolutely nothing to you any more?
    And yes, we are still bound by the covenants of our fathers. Will we be forgiven if we dont keep them? We will be forgiven of all but one type of sin, so long as Christ does in fact accept us on the other side, and does not say “But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.'” (matthew 7:23).

    On a personal note, Kate seems to have changed at least a little in her way of talking to others in this thread. While it may not be the perfect niceness we should all have, perhaps you could recognize the change that has happened, and be thankful. Or, we can continue to prod someone until they snap and dont want to discuss things with anyone.

    Finally: Josh, you are by FAR the nicest Mormon I have spoken with. I like talking to you.
    While you may like talking to me, I am curious about the reason you are wanting to pull others from this religion. If it is because some of us are mean, then many of the people you go to church with every sunday need to be removed from your religion. If it is because we have false doctrine, you efforts should be at least equally concentrated on removing Catholics from their religion (since you are Lutheran, which was established because of how wrong Catholics were). I would even venture to say Catholics are in more need of your work then we are. Catholics have ONLY the Bible and are wrong. At least if we are wrong, it is because of the creation of a second book. Obviously I do not know if you do in fact try and “convert” people from other religions, as i only speak to you here. I am saying though, if this is the reason it should be to all people that are wrong.

  47. April 21, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Kate said: “We CAN be filled with His Spirit and have no more disposition to do evil….

    I am thankful for the Atonement that makes that possible.”

    So far it’s not been possible for you. Why not? What is the reason it doesn’t work for you?

  48. 48 joshtried
    April 21, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    You believe obedience to the commandments is a requirement. I don’t.
    You are trying to put a heavy load onto the readers shoulders that you have proven time and again that you yourself cannot carry.

    This echo, is straight judgement. While i understand we are to judge eachother in some things, I can honestly say this to me goes farther than we should judge. You say we should believe in Christ. PROVE you do. Prove God has chosen you first, and that all things you have done you have done in the name of Christ and are not just glittering vices. Kate has said she is sinful. She has never claimed to be perfect.

    Second, If i tell you the truth: that we must accept Christ, and then turn around and not do it, have i told you a lie? Does it matter if I do in fact accept Christ? It doesnt matter a single tittle. All that matters is that truth is available to be heard. Whether Kate accepts and practices every single thing she preaches is not what is on trial here. What is on trial is the doctrine of our faith.

  49. April 21, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    Echo, ad hominem reasoning, if I’m not mistaken is something you have preached against on this blog…and here you are….

  50. April 21, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Josh said: “I am not trying to take a stab at you here Echo, but i really do want to point something out. As we have been discussing: once Christ comes into your life, however he comes, you SHOULD be changed to the point that you are not doing these bad things. As our side has conceded, we will most likely still continue in some, but not in all the things that are bad. Yalls side should be saying the exact same thing at this point. They SHOULD be nicer on this thread. OR, do the 10 commandments mean absolutely nothing to you any more?
    And yes, we are still bound by the covenants of our fathers. Will we be forgiven if we dont keep them? We will be forgiven of all but one type of sin, so long as Christ does in fact accept us on the other side, and does not say “But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’” (matthew 7:23). ”

    I totally agree that we all should be working very hard to be nicer. The commandments are very important to me.

    Josh said: “I am curious about the reason you are wanting to pull others from this religion. If it is because some of us are mean, then many of the people you go to church with every sunday need to be removed from your religion. If it is because we have false doctrine, you efforts should be at least equally concentrated on removing Catholics from their religion (since you are Lutheran, which was established because of how wrong Catholics were). I would even venture to say Catholics are in more need of your work then we are. Catholics have ONLY the Bible and are wrong. At least if we are wrong, it is because of the creation of a second book. Obviously I do not know if you do in fact try and “convert” people from other religions, as i only speak to you here. I am saying though, if this is the reason it should be to all people that are wrong.”

    We want to pull Mormons out of Mormonism because we believe it is a religion that leads people to outerdarkness.

    And yes, truth needs to go to everyone, not just Mormons. This blog is just one small branch on a huge tree.

  51. April 21, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Kate, it seems you don’t understand what ad hominem means.

    Could you answer my sincere question please?

  52. April 21, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Ad hominem is a personal attack in an attempt to discredit the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic of the person. You are trying to discredit my claims by comments such as “Most of your posts are stained with sin.”

    I will back out of these conversations now, due to the fact that even when LDS posters are posting with love and respect, most of you are spinning their words around in circles and making them rehash every single topic over and over again…not to get to the truth, but to cloud the issue with more of your garbled version of our doctrine, telling us what we believe and never letting the truth be told for readers to read. You make it impossible for anyone in their right mind to not become agitated. I commend Shem and Josh for maintaining their cool even though I’m sure they feel the agitation. Somehow, I think they believe they are actually going to help you see the truth. I have come to the conclusion that you won’t…at least not here on this blog….it would defeat your underlying purpose.

    Josh, you might want to read back in the archives and count how many times all of these topics have been beat to death. I know you have the desire to help them understand the truth, but the truth is not what they want.

  53. April 21, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Kate said: “Ad hominem is a personal attack in an attempt to discredit the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic of the person. You are trying to discredit my claims by comments such as “Most of your posts are stained with sin.”

    You are the Queen of Ad hominem attacks and the queen of hyprocrisy. I was just simply pointing that fact out to you.

    Mormonism isn’t working for YOU. You said: ““We CAN be filled with His Spirit and have no more disposition to do evil….I am thankful for the Atonement that makes that possible” My point is that it is NOT possible for YOU. Once you come to see that fact and are ready to admit it to yourself and to God, read the Bible like a child and let go of what Mormonism has taught you and you will be set FREE.

  54. 54 JBR
    April 21, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    Echo,
    Kate’s threat to stop posting here will soon be forgotten and will return when it gets boring with the three or so responders who do nothing more than self congradulate each other on her blog …. so don’t lose too much sleep.

  55. 55 shematwater
    April 21, 2012 at 10:41 pm

    DAVID

    Be ye strong … for your work shall be rewarded, 2 Chr. 15:7

    Give them according to their deeds, Ps. 28:4 (Rev. 2:23).

    renderest to every man according to his work, Ps. 62:12 (Prov. 24:12, 29; Rom. 2:5–11).

    God shall bring every work into judgment, Eccl. 12:14

    to give every man according to his ways, Jer. 17:10 (Jer. 32:19).

    do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly, Micah 6:8

    they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, Matt. 5:6

    that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father, Matt. 5:16

    whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, Matt. 7:12

    Ye shall know them by their fruits, Matt. 7:16

    received seed into the good ground … beareth fruit, Matt. 13:23

    shall reward every man according to his works, Matt. 16:27 (1 Cor. 3:8).

    as ye have done it unto one of the least of these … ye have done it unto me, Matt. 25:40

    he that doeth truth cometh to the light, John 3:21

    If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham, John 8:39

    I must work the works of him that sent me, John 9:4

    he that … worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, Acts 10:35

    doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13

    receive … according to that he hath done, 2 Cor. 5:10

    let every man prove his own work, Gal. 6:4

    whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap, Gal. 6:7

    created in Christ Jesus unto good works, Eph. 2:10

    fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, Eph. 5:9

    perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, 2 Tim. 3:17

    be careful to maintain good works, Titus 3:8

    Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, Heb. 13:21

    be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22

    Pure religion … is this, To visit the fatherless, James 1:27

    by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22

    faith without works is dead, James 2:26

    him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, James 4:17

    Father … judgeth according to every man’s work, 1 Pet. 1:17 (Rev. 20:12–13).

    your good works … glorify God, 1 Pet. 2:12

    add to your faith virtue, 2 Pet. 1:5

    let us not love in word … but in deed, 1 Jn. 3:18

    we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, 1 Jn. 3:22

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, Rev. 22:14

  56. 56 shematwater
    April 21, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    ECHO

    Allow me to take a stab at you, as I think you need it.

    First, I love your reasoning. Kate is a horrid hypocrite because she believes something that she herself admit to not following perfectly. You, on the other hand, have no fault whatsoever because you do not believe in it in the first place. Great logic.

    Personally, I have seen more personal attacks from you than from Kate. The difference is that she doesn’t hide it behind pretty words and flowery expressions. She doesn’t insult you, and then with the same breath try to convince you that she wasn’t really insulting you.
    Almost every post you have made is filled with arrogance and condesension towards anyone who actually believes the LDS doctrine, and is magnified when they dare to defend it. You are constantly trying to tell us what we believe, presuming that you have a better understanding of something that we have been living. When we even think of correcting you we are dismissed out of hand, with ever more clever and devious devices to do so.

    It is you that first started proclaiming sins, and than complained when we tried to point it out in you, showing your own hypocracy. Then you have the nerve to accuse us of what you yourself have been guilty of.

    You are the one whose laces your comments with emnity and hostility to anything that is LDS, and then you call us sinners because your actions happen to irritate us. That is like a misquisto yelling murder when it is smashed by the man it just bit.
    So, until you are willing to stop twisting our doctrine; to stop speaking in arrogance; and to stop throwing the accusations at us, don’t be the hypocrite in condemning us for defending ourselves.

  57. April 21, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Um, the title of this post has a typo. It should be “no more disposition to do evil,” not “no more deposition to do evil.”

  58. April 21, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    Shem hasn’t read anything I wrote in this thread.

  59. April 22, 2012 at 2:02 am

    Kate said: “.. We believe that if we fully come to Christ, we began to desire to not be sinful…wow such a horrible concept. You would have that if we DESIRE not to sin, which is the point of this passage, then we are wrong for that desire….hmmm…”

    Notice how Kate tries to make Mark look really bad (Which is a sin against the commandment not to bear false testimony against your neighbor and all because of her own fault in not taking the time or care needed in reading Mark’s post and making certain that she doesn’t bear false testimony against him. See how she comes right out and blames Mark and makes him look evil because she thinks that he thinks it is wrong to desire not to sin. So Mark has to take the hit for her false accusation and carelessness in reading his post. No where in Marks post did he say it is wrong to desire not to sin.

    Josh is up next with: “So, we follow Satan now for thinking God has the power to help us not want to sin. Good job, Mark. You have just condemned every Christian on earth.”

    It appears that he has not read Mark’s post with care either, perhaps he caught Kate’s false testimony and went with that now spreading more false testimony. Nowhere in Mark’s post does it state that Mormons are following Satan for thinking God has the power to help people not want to sin.

    Then Kate goes on for several posts after that trying to make a point based on that false accusation she made up and trying to give all this scriptural evidence to support what she is saying while all along, if she had read Mark’s post carefully, she would have realized it isn’t necessary. But in the meantime, she makes it look like she is refuting Mark’s position when in reality, she is refuting her own false accusation that stemmed from her own personal laziness or carelessness to take the time to read his post carefully so as not to make false accusations against Mark.

    Then Kate goes on to say: “The LDS teach that we can be perfect through and only through Christ’s Atonement. What you hear from others here is that they want to convince the rest of you that we do not teach that…no matter how much we argue it. So I would hope you can understand how things can get snarky. It’s hard to be constantly told you teach something you are not teaching.”

    All along in this thread she makes arguments all based on false assumptions she has dreamed up in her head and then look what she does…she admits to getting snarky (and this is actually caused by her own fairytale false assumptions) And then she accuses Mark of constantly being told that he is teaching something that the LDS church doesn’t teach (again…all based on her fairytale false assumptions)

    Then I posted a general comment in post 23 intended in a general sense, not written to her , nor addressed to her nor about her but about none of us since all of us fall short and she immediately cuts me down for it in post 24 with: “. Echo: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matt 7:3 NIV

    So here we go again with the false assumptions. She falsely assumed this was about her. Then she goes on and on about how we twist and turn her words when all the while she is twisting and turning Marks words and you don’t think by now I am getting a little annoyed with her? She does this very same thing in every thread. It gets annoying. She dreams up endless false fairytale assumptions and then blames us for all of them, then cuts us down.

    Then Kate says to me: “and what we get back is not someone who “desires to and takes the time to understand what the other person truly means when they speak.”

    When all the while she hasn’t taken the time to understand what Mark truly means when he speaks. She is careless and reckless.

    Kate has broken God’s entire law – all of it.

    James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”

  60. April 22, 2012 at 2:14 am

    Echo….I have obviously hit a nerve with you. I did not falsely accuse Mark as anyone who can read can see. Good job on trashing me…you only served to prove my point. You are acting very childish, but because it proves that I must have shaken your faith, I’m fine with it.

  61. April 22, 2012 at 2:18 am

    To all the readers here: You may think I just posted that in response to nothing, but somehow, Echo posted the comment I will paste here and then removed it after I responded. Here is what he wrote:

    Kate said: “.. We believe that if we fully come to Christ, we began to desire to not be sinful…wow such a horrible concept. You would have that if we DESIRE not to sin, which is the point of this passage, then we are wrong for that desire….hmmm…”

    Notice how Kate tries to make Mark look really bad (Which is a sin against the commandment not to bear false testimony against your neighbor and all because of her own fault in not taking the time or care needed in reading Mark’s post and making certain that she doesn’t bear false testimony against him. See how she comes right out and blames Mark and makes him look evil because she thinks that he thinks it is wrong to desire not to sin. So Mark has to take the hit for her false accusation and carelessness in reading his post. No where in Marks post did he say it is wrong to desire not to sin.

    Josh is up next with: “So, we follow Satan now for thinking God has the power to help us not want to sin. Good job, Mark. You have just condemned every Christian on earth.”

    It appears that he has not read Mark’s post with care either, perhaps he caught Kate’s false testimony and went with that now spreading more false testimony. Nowhere in Mark’s post does it state that Mormons are following Satan for thinking God has the power to help people not want to sin.

    Then Kate goes on for several posts after that trying to make a point based on that false accusation she made up and trying to give all this scriptural evidence to support what she is saying while all along, if she had read Mark’s post carefully, she would have realized it isn’t necessary. But in the meantime, she makes it look like she is refuting Mark’s position when in reality, she is refuting her own false accusation that stemmed from her own personal laziness or carelessness to take the time to read his post carefully so as not to make false accusations against Mark.

    Then Kate goes on to say: “The LDS teach that we can be perfect through and only through Christ’s Atonement. What you hear from others here is that they want to convince the rest of you that we do not teach that…no matter how much we argue it. So I would hope you can understand how things can get snarky. It’s hard to be constantly told you teach something you are not teaching.”

    All along in this thread she makes arguments all based on false assumptions she has dreamed up in her head and then look what she does…she admits to getting snarky (and this is actually caused by her own fairytale false assumptions) And then she accuses Mark of constantly being told that he is teaching something that the LDS church doesn’t teach (again…all based on her fairytale false assumptions)

    Then I posted a general comment in post 23 intended in a general sense, not written to her , nor addressed to her nor about her but about none of us since all of us fall short and she immediately cuts me down for it in post 24 with: “. Echo: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matt 7:3 NIV

    So here we go again with the false assumptions. She falsely assumed this was about her. Then she goes on and on about how we twist and turn her words when all the while she is twisting and turning Marks words and you don’t think by now I am getting a little annoyed with her? She does this very same thing in every thread. It gets annoying. She dreams up endless false fairytale assumptions and then blames us for all of them, then cuts us down.

    Then Kate says to me: “and what we get back is not someone who “desires to and takes the time to understand what the other person truly means when they speak.”

    When all the while she hasn’t taken the time to understand what Mark truly means when he speaks. She is careless and reckless.

  62. April 22, 2012 at 3:05 am

    Shem

    Thanks for taking the time to do that. I noticed something about the passages you chose. A good deal of the passages you quoted are “law” passages spoken about the unbelieving wicked or the unrepentant. For example, you quoted Rev. 2:23 but read the verses ahead of it where God is talking about those who did not repent of their ways. Some of the other passages were along the line of what I wanted to see you indentify so I can point out an important distinction to draw in reading these passages and others like them. You quoted this from Titus 3:8 ” be careful to maintain good works.” Actually Titus 3-8 are great passages for this.

    Before I get into this I would ask in reply to this post that you define or explain what your understanding of what “justification” means compared to what “sanctification” means. For a good discussion on justification compared to sanctification which is well worth the read go to:
    http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/june-2006/sanctification-heat-and-glow-fire?page=0,0

    Justification— is God’s action of declaring sinners righteous or “not guilty.” Justification is what God has done for us by his grace through the merits of Christ. It is finished. Completed by Jesus’ all sufficient sacrifice for us. Justification is the cause of our salvation and is the result of God’s exclusive work for us in Christ; there is no human participation whatsoever. Justification has given us a new status before God.

    Bible passages that talk about justification are talking about what saves us. God’s grace through faith in Christ. They also speak of it in terms of what does not save us – i.e. works & obedience to the law. Passages talking about justification include:

    ” 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16
    21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

    Sanctification— is our works of faith done by the power of the Holy Spirit. It gives us a new life with God. It is what God continues to do in us as he leads us away temptations and toward a godly life. Sanctification is ongoing and incomplete and the result of the Holy Spirit’s work in believers’ hearts which produces a new creation in Christ. Sanctification is a consequence of our salvation already won by Christ.

    Justification and sanctification are distinct but they can never be separated. Justification , by CHrist work alone is what saves. Sanctification, although it always follows justification is not was saves us.

    The portions of the passage from Titus 3 you quoted is talking about sanctification and not justification. Look at Titus 3:3-8 below. Verses 4 – 7 actually are describing and talking about justification. Verses 8 is talking about sanctification.
    “3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. ” Titus 3:3-8
    Notice in verse 5 it is clear that their salvation was already completed “he saved us” and afterwards they were led to maintain good works.” Verse 5 even starts by saying “not by works” . . . “he saved us” This is how Shem, Christians see no conflict between passages that are talking about doing good works (sanctification) without seeing them as commands to do good works as part of earning salvation (eternal life with God). Yes works are important because they are the result of and evidence of our faith. But it is the faith that saves. It is “righteousness of God which is by faith of Christ Jesus” that justifies.

  63. April 22, 2012 at 3:28 am

    Not to enter into the argument between Echo and Kate, but I read Mark’s post carefully, and I completely disagree with what he wrote.

    Having no more disposition to do evil is simply the mighty change of heart, in which instead of enjoying sin, we now look upon it with abhorrence. Thus, a person who was a fornicator, who enjoyed the experience immensely, because of the pleasure it brought, now, after this mighty change of heart, loses all desire to fornicate, and instead now looks upon fornication as a disgusting, vulgar, hateful act. The thought of fornicating no longer brings pleasure, but pain and disgust, for it is now seen as a sin, which sin will cause the person, if committed, to lose the Spirit of the Lord, and thus the joy of the saints, which joy comes from the Spirit.

    This mighty change of heart comes from one’s repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the submitting of one’s heart fully to the Lord. This, then, is a key to know if we are right before the Lord, for if we are still attracted to sin, or do not look upon it with loathing, but instead look upon it with titillation, meaning that it still appears pleasurable and desirable to us, despite the fact that we resist committing it, this shows us that we still, as yet, have not experienced the mighty change of heart. Although our behavior may have changed, in that we have stopped outwardly sinning and begun obeying commandments of God, our inner vessel still has not been cleansed, even our minds are still blind and our hearts are still hard, meaning that we are still in our sins, regardless of our change of behavior, for the Lord requires the heart, that He may change it, making us a new creature.

    It is this mighty change of heart, through repentance and faith, that makes us a saint, or a sanctified person. Such people become, in the experience, justified by their faith (unto repentance) in the atoning blood of Christ, purified by fire and sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost (the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.) They then have a remission of their sins, being justified or guiltless, and may retain a remission of their sins from day to day by following the instructions king Benjamin gave in Mosiah 4:11-12. They are now in a state of grace and may retain that grace from day to day. Or, they may fall from grace by not doing those things, for it is possible for a man to fall from grace.

    None of this doctrine, which comes from the Book of Mormon, conflicts with the doctrine found in the Bible, for such people now cease doing the works of men–none of which works, as it is written, are any good, for no man does good, no, not one, just our Father who is heaven–and now start to do the works of the Father, meaning that He starts to use them as instruments in His hands to perform His works, for He can now use them because they now have clean hands and a pure heart, their garments being washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. The Book of Mormon, then, unfolds the biblical doctrine to our understanding, so that we know and understand the very points of the doctrine of Christ, so that we know how to come to Him and be saved.

    The doctrine put forth in the OP, by Mark, which is had by many people on this planet, in particular the Christians, is a doctrine of being saved in one’s sins, without the mighty change of heart, purification, sanctification, etc., that comes from the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. But such doctrine is of the devil, for the doctrine of Christ is being saved from one’s sins, not in one’s sins. Thus, the heart must be changed and the man must be changed into a new creature, or, if not, such a man will go about his life thinking he is saved, then die and lift up his eyes in hell, having never exercised faith unto repentance, only a lip-service form of it.

    To illustate:

    Until the day I die I will sin. Until the day I die I will have dispositions to do evil. That doesn’t make me happy. But that is a fact of life. It’s a fact that no matter how hard I try not to, I will still sin. But it’s also a fact that I am not worried in the slightest that, because of this, I won’t live forever with heavenly Father. I’m not worried about that because Jesus’ blood cleanses me completely. I’m not worried about that because I am saved fully, completely, entirely based on what Jesus has done for us. Because of Jesus, even though I am still in a sinful state, before God I have the status of a saint. And that is all that counts!

    The last paragraph of the OP demonstrates this false doctrine of relying upon the atonement of Christ to save us in our sins, without the attached conditions of faith unto repentance. It is, essentially, a modification of the order of the Nehors. See Alma 1:3-4.

  64. April 22, 2012 at 3:34 am

    Oops. Looks like I forgot to place a closed italics mark. Sorry about all the italics… Feel free to fix that, if the blog owner wants to… The closed italics should have been placed after the words “in our sins.”

  65. 65 shematwater
    April 22, 2012 at 3:37 am

    ECHO

    I have read every single word you have written, and have carefully gone over the article Mark wrote. Neither Kate not I have misunderstood what he was saying. I will quote.
    “Therefore if someone claims to have no more disposition to do evil but only good continually, isn’t it reasonable to say that they are claiming that they are no longer sinning?”
    This is his thesis, and what everything else he says hinges on. From this he gets his reasoning and from this stems everything he says in this article. What does this say? It is an accusation of self-righteousness, claiming that when we state we have no desire to sin we are really saying we don’t sin. He was not only wrong, but it is hard to believe it was not intentional, though I do try to give the benefit of the doubt.

    Thus, what Kate said was perfectly true, and it did refute what he claimed. Your attempt to say it didn’t is either your lack of understanding his article, or an intentional deception to try and steer the readers away from the truth.

    DAVID

    Justification is when the Holy Spirit gives his ratifying approval to the actions of men. This is why works alone mean nothing, for he will not ratify the actions of the unbelievers.
    In other words, a baptism is nothing more than a brief dunk under the water unless the Holy Ghost gives his approval of the act, thus justifying the one performing it and making it binding. Also, a marriage is nothing more than an agreement between two people in this life unless the Holy Ghost gives his approval of the act, thus justifying the ones performing it and making it binding.
    We are justified by our Good Works, but only if they gain the sealing approval of the Holy Ghost, which is why we teach that it is through faith that we are saved, because it is only through faith that we can be justified. However, if we have no works than what is the Spirit going to justify?

    Santification is the process by which we are sanctified, or made Holy and able to live in the presence of God. It is a process that is accomplished in part by having our actions justified by the Holy Ghost, as well as letting him work in us and changing us. This process cannot be done without our personal effort to conform to the laws of God, and it is through this process that we are enabled to return to our Father’s presence.

    It must be noted that neither Justification or Sanctification would be possible without the atonement of Christ and his grace in our lives. These must come first, or we cannot be justified or santified.

    Speaking of Titus, I would agree with you in the basic understanding. However, I would point out that verse five tells us how he justified us, and that is through the “the washing of regeneration (baptism), and renewing of the Holy Ghost (confirmation and gift of the Holy Ghost).” So that again, without these ordinances, no one is saved, regardless of their faith.

    My question, as follow up, is this: What is the need for Sanctification? If we are already saved then why do we need to be sanctified?

  66. April 22, 2012 at 3:54 am

    Kate said: “Echo….I have obviously hit a nerve with you. I did not falsely accuse Mark as anyone who can read can see. Good job on trashing me…you only served to prove my point. You are acting very childish, but because it proves that I must have shaken your faith, I’m fine with it.”

    Your sinning doesn’t shake up my faith. It shakes the dust off of my feet. (Acts 13:50-51)

  67. 67 JBR
    April 22, 2012 at 4:07 am

    Echo,
    What did I tell you …. guess you can get a good nights sleep after all.

  68. 68 JBR
    April 22, 2012 at 4:25 am

    “Justification is when the Holy Spirit gives his ratifying approval to the actions of men.”

    No, that is not what it means to be justified according to the truth from the Bible….
    but I suppose if the correct Biblical meaning was given, you’d probably just write it off as just one of those “lying pen” conspiracies.

    Boy… I sure glad that God dupped so many for so long about what justification is till we were able to be graced with Shem’s now accurate, “lying pen-less” meaning of what it is to be justified.

    Thanks shem…for now anyway. But don’t get to high on yourself, maybe one day some revelation will come along and you’ll be the new “lying pen” scribe.

  69. 69 shematwater
    April 22, 2012 at 5:24 am

    JBR

    It is not many years now before the Lord will return and everything I have said here will be proven true. On that day you will seek desperately to hide your lies and your wickedness from the face of God, as you will know that you have followed the lies of men and denied the true God of Heaven and Earth. You will seek to hide from his presence, for it will burn your sould with the realization that you have not been justified, for nothing you have done has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.
    On that day I pray that you will finally come to terms with the hostility condesension you have in your heart for all the LDS, which is so clearly showed in your manner and tone on these threads. For only in repenting and acknowledging your error will you ever have the hope of eternal life that is now in my heart.

  70. 70 joshtried
    April 22, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Mark said:
    Therefore this says they didn’t even have an inclination to do evil; rather they were inclined to do good continually.
    Therefore if someone claims to have no more disposition to do evil but only good continually, isn’t it reasonable to say that they are claiming that they are no longer sinning?
    Until the day I die I will have dispositions to do evil.

    I replied:
    So, we follow Satan now for thinking God has the power to help us not want to sin. Good job, Mark. You have just condemned every Christian on earth.

    How is what i said wrong Echo? How am i taking what was said out of context. Claiming to be sinless would be an outright lie, which would be from Satan. Mark himself describes disposition, and then does not use it correctly in his reasoning. INCLINED is different than ACTUALLY DOING. Every man on earth is INCLINED to sleep with as many women as he can (minus gays….) Does every man on Earth ACTUALLY sleep with as many people as they can?
    In any case, it is NOT REASONABLE to say that we are claiming that we are no longer sinning.

    To the last statement Mark has made, I want to say that I feel sorry for the situation you place yourself in Mark. I know that God has limitless power, including helping with the inclination to do evil. I know many people that have allowed God to use this power to change their lives. One instance i will share with you is with my grandparents. They used to smoke and drink like you wouldnt believe. After prayer, one day they woke up and threw the cigarettes out the window and never had another drink. To this day, they live this lifestyle. Christ has given them the power to overcome these vices. I know that they do not want to do these things anymore. God created a mighty change in their hearts with regard to these things. God has the power to change your inclination Mark. You of all people should realize this, especially after preaching that only God has the power to change your heart to come to him. Your inclination from that time forth is to Christ, not to Satan, yet you choose to not allow God to change other inclinations. “Ask and ye shall receive” Mark.

  71. April 23, 2012 at 12:23 am

    Shem

    “Justification is when the Holy Spirit gives his ratifying approval to the actions of men.”

    There is no biblical support for that. I have shown you passages where the Bible clearly says how we are and are not justified. And they expressly say it is NOT by anything we have done. Even Titus 3-8 which you agreed with does not say what you say justification is.

    Another way of looking at what you are saying is that men make their own jusitication for themselves. That cannot be reconciled with any passage in the Bible on justification. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.” Romans 3:20

    “28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” Romans 3:28

    God’s approval of our actions is NOT what justifies us, it is Christ’s actions alone that were approved by God to justify us.

  72. 72 shematwater
    April 23, 2012 at 1:58 am

    DAVID

    Again, every verse you sight is speaking of the Law of Moses. This is distinguished by Paul from the Law that Christ established, which he calls “the law of Faith” in Romans 3: 27. It is in reference to this law that Paul declares “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” (Romans 2: 13) Notice how it is those who do what is commanded that are justified.
    This is confirmed by James when he writes “Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only.” (James 2: 21-24).

    Nothing in the Bible contradicts this doctrine of Justification. The problem is that you fail to recognize that it is through faith, and because of the atonement, that this justification comes.
    You claim “Another way of looking at what you are saying is that men make their own jusitication for themselves.”
    This is wrong. It is not another way of looking at it, but a way of twisting it. “It is God that justifieth” (Romans 8: 33). Those who seek to justify themselves will stand condemned before God. It is those who seek justification at the hands of God, through the atonement of Christ, that will be justified, if they are doers of the Law of Faith, and not hearers only.

    As I said, Justification is God giving his ratifying approval of our actions. Thus a man is justified in being baptized only if God seals that baptism. He is justified in marriage only if God seals the marriage. This is principle followed by Abraham, whose sacrifice of his son was justified because God commanded it, and sealed the action. This is why Samuel was jusfied in hacking King Agag to pieces; because his action was sealed by God.

  73. 73 JBR
    April 23, 2012 at 3:40 am

    bearendave,
    You’re correct, there is no Biblical support for the definition of justification that was described in post #65 by Shem.

  74. 74 joshtried
    April 23, 2012 at 4:14 am

    Bible Dictionary

    Justification definition

    “a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10). It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom. 10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8). The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a “condition,” not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 26; 4:20, 22; Phil. 3:8-11; Gal. 2:16)……..”

    Can you please show me where what this from the bible says differs from the whole message of what shem said?

  75. April 23, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Gladly, basically the entire definition differs from what Shem said. Shem is essentially saying that there are two sets of laws: the law of Moses and the law of faith. He says:

    “Again, every verse you sight is speaking of the Law of Moses. This is distinguished by Paul from the Law that Christ established, which he calls “the law of Faith” in Romans 3: 27.” Shem says the law of faith still requires obedience to be justified. He says:
    “Those who seek to justify themselves will stand condemned before God. It is those who seek justification at the hands of God, through the atonement of Christ, that will be justified, IF they are doers of the Law of Faith, and not hearers only.” (my emphasis)
    His last sentence totally undermines his first. Only “Doer’s of the law . . .” will receive Christ’s atonement and be justified he says. What is a “doer of the law” if it is not someone trying to justify himself ( even if only partly)? Romans 2:13 and James 2 are speaking about the reality of a believer’s life; that they have works which over the course of their lives shows that they had faith. But what faith? Did James teach faith in works simply for the sake of doing works or did he teach that faith in Christ produces works and that faith which fails to produce works is dead? Clearly, he taught the later. Paul certainly did not preach works justify us, but that doesn’t mean a comment by him about how believers will be seen by God contradicts the truth he preached everywhere that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ without works.
    In fact, Shem took his Law of Faith approach from Romans 27. That doesn’t help him. Look at verse 27 it does not say or mean what Shem claims it does. This is made abundantly clear when you see verses 27 and 28 together.
    “27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

    Lets break down your bible dictionary definition into some key parts:

    1 “it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands.”

    God declares us Not guilty and treats us AS IF WE conformed to the law.

    2.” The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law” (Rom. 5:1-10).

    The law is not set aside but it requirements were met by Christ and believers are treated as though their obedience was perfect.

    3. It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom. 10:3-9).
    Believers are credited with Christ’s righteousness

    4. Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8).

    We are declared to be cloaked in Christ’s righteous perfectly satisfying the law forever.
    5. Faith is . . . the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 26; 4:20, 22; Phil. 3:8-11; Gal. 2:16)……..”
    Faith alone – not by works
    These next passages describe righteousness from faith and that the righteousness believers receive is Christ’s righteousness. There is nothing we need to add to this. His righteousness is our righteousness. That is how we are justified before God.

    “6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    7 “Blessed are they
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man
    whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”[b]” Romans 4:6-8
    “21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:21.
    Josh – Christ’s work for us was HUGE. He really did take all the sins of the whole world onto himself. All of YOUR sins were nailed to that cross. HE suffered for them, He died for them, He rose again to give you eternal life, He made you perfect, and he has offered ALL of that to you. That was the plan Josh. That was God’s plan to save you – He won’t force it on you, but you do need to trust Him, and that means trusting His Word and letting Him work faith in your heart. It WILL change your life. You WILL never even want to commit another sin, it WILL bother you to no end when you fail, but you can ALWAYS rely the fact that through Jesus all your sins are forgiven and He has freed you from the law so that you can live for Him without fear and at peace with God. You don’t to earn your way to Him – He comes to you. He has his arms reached out to you right now.

  76. 76 joshtried
    April 23, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    See David, this is why i asked if it detracted from the whole message. the 2 sentences you are trying to say contradict each other in no way do so. Here are the sentences:
    Those who seek to justify themselves will stand condemned before God.
    It is those who seek justification through the atonement of Christ, that will be justified, IF they are doers of the Law of Faith, and not hearers only. (edited sentences for ease of reading)
    OUR works ALONE are crap. OUR works THROUGH CHRIST are perfect.

    What is a “doer of the law” if it is not someone trying to justify himself.
    A doer of the law of faith is someone that has faith in Jesus Christ and faithfully listens to what he has said and who does those works that Christ would have us do.

    God declares us Not guilty and treats us AS IF WE conformed to the law.
    No, God declares us not guilty IF we believe in Christ. “by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ”

    Faith alone – not by works
    If there are no works whatsoever then there is no faith. “faith without works is dead”. While you think the works themselves may not be judged, and only the faith judged, a prerequisite to judging faith is seeing if it is actually faith. Therefore, your faith is judged by its works to see if it was faith.

    I love how this statement has evolved: “and he has offered ALL of that to you.”
    Either he has offered it and i have already accepted it, or or he has yet to offer it and force me to accept him.
    I KNOW that he has offered and I have accepted. Yall are welcome to continue in the delusion that Christ must accept himself for you to get you started.
    I also love this part: “He won’t force it on you”
    This is precisely what we have been discussing. Either we have free will or we dont. The Lutheran side has previously said that we do not get a choice in the initial matter of accepting Christ. This, by definition, means that it IS forced.

  77. April 23, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Josh

    Well Josh we obviously disagree and only God’s Word has the power to change your mind. I do want to clear up something I said that you commented on. It is this dialogue between me and you:

    I asked – “What is a “doer of the law” if it is not someone trying to justify himself.
    You said: “A doer of the law of faith is someone that has faith in Jesus Christ and faithfully listens to what he has said and who does those works that Christ would have us do.”

    I’ll explain it is this way. ” . . . without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” Hebrews 11:6. Reliance on works to prove faith or out of an obligation to obey is not faith and such works are not pleasing to God. I was speaking of a “doer of the law” in the context SHem was using – IF you do works THEN you receive Christ’s atonement and are justifiied.

    Believers do works and do obey the law, but they do so in response to being justified already because they have received God’s grace through faith in the blood of Christ shed for them and not in order to receive it.

    How you can ingore the truth put so plainly:

    “27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

    This is really not even a close question.

    “15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law NO ONE will be justified. ” Galatians 2:15- 16

    And all these passages DO VERY MUCH APPLY TO YOU and are not restricted only the the Galatians Paul was writting to.

    “10 ALL who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is EVERYONE who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[d] Galatians 3:10-13

    “It says ALL who rely on observing the law” ‘Notice also what it says in verse 12. It says the law IS NOT based on faith and it also says those who live by the law still obey the law. Reliance on obedience to the law IS NOT faith. YOu who rely on obeying the law ARE under a curse. Josh you can try to obey every law ever written and it won’t save you.

    “11 there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”[a] ” Romans 3:11-12

  78. 78 joshtried
    April 23, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Galatians 2:15- 16 is speaking to our works alone VS faith in Christ.
    This is honestly the last time i am going to repeat these words. You can believe a True to the faith LDS Mormon who has lived this life for roughly 10 years, or you can believe yourself. Any future time, i will just simply quote what you said and say wrong next to it..
    We do not believe our works ALONE are any good to us. Our works ALONE are nasty and vile.
    We believe that we must have faith in Jesus Christ. We do have faith in Jesus Christ.

    I have also said this before, and repeating myself is very tiresome. Even my wife is upset that all i do is come to the computer to repeat myself. She wants me to leave this forum because nobody is willing to understand how things really work. If i was not LDS, would you listen differently? I have not yet seen a Lutheran take the stance of “Once saved always saved”, But then you turn right back around and post something like this: “4. Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8).
    We are declared to be cloaked in Christ’s righteous perfectly satisfying the law forever.
    Your analyzation of this is incorrect. It says “he possesses a righteousness”. If we continue to posses this righteousness, then yes we will satisfy the law forever. There is no once saved always saved. There is no forever without something from us. We can lose the possession of this righteousness. It is up to us to hold onto it, to put it in a safe place and make sure nothing happens to it.
    From the dictionary:
    pos·sess/pəˈzes/
    Verb
    A verb is an ACTION. An action is a type of WORK.

    Initially: Salvation/Heaven does come by faith alone. How can you do good works before you come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? Obviously, you cant. At this point in time, you are cleaned by faith alone.
    Through life: Salvation/Heaven must have something to prove your faith. It is at this point when you should have works to show Christ that you do in fact have faith that he works in your life. If by this point, you have no works, your faith is dead. If your faith in Christ is dead, then you no longer receive Salvation/Heaven. Is this point within a week, a month, a year, or 20 years? That is not for me to decide. That is for no one here to decide other than Christ. Does an unknown time frame make it any less truthful? No, it doesnt. As soon as you can, you should be doing works through Christ.

  79. April 23, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    Josh

    from your last post is in the [[ – – -]]

    [ [– – But then you turn right back around and post something like this:

    “4. Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8). ” ”

    “We are declared to be cloaked in Christ’s righteous perfectly satisfying the law forever”.

    Your analyzation of this is incorrect. It says “he possesses a righteousness”. – – -]]

    – – – – – – –

    Well, I posted that because I was responding from a quote from your bible dictionary. And actually it says its “a declaration that he posses righteousness” My analysis is consistent with:

    “17 As it is written: “. . . .—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things THAT ARE NOT as though THEY WERE. Romans 4:17

    That is also consisting with beign credited with Christ’s perfect righteousness.

    “21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

  80. 80 shematwater
    April 23, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    DAVID

    You are not understanding anything, but are twisting our doctrine because doing so is easier than actually paying attention.
    You said “What is a “doer of the law” if it is not someone trying to justify himself ( even if only partly)?”
    Basically, you are so indoctrinated in your own beliefs that you have no ability to understand otehrs. To you even the mention of works and justification together is heresy, and so you seem to tune everything out.

    First, you ignore the fact that Paul says it is the doer of the law that is justified, then you twist meaning to say that a doer is one who seeks to justify himself, which is not what I said. You do make the correct point that justification is a judicial act, so let us use the judiciary system to show exactly what I mean, and how what you say is nothing like it.
    In a court of law there are certain rules and regulations that must be met. The lawyer calling the witness cannot ask leading questions, but the other lawyer can. Evidence must be submitted before court, or a recess must be called to give sufficient time to consider it. Certain behaviors are not allowed (badgering the witness) without the Judges permission (treated as a hostile witness).
    Now, a person who seek to justify himself is one who disregards these rules and thinks that they can get away with it. These are the lawyers that badger witnesses without thought; that introduce evidence with no warning, and who ask the leading questions when they are not permitted. Many think that the rules will only hinder justice, and that their methods will be overlooked if they get a conviction. Some just don’t care.
    Others, on the other hand, seek to be justified by the court. They are timely in submitting evidence, civil in their questioning, and never ask a question they are not permitted to ask. When the judge makes a ruling they stick with it.
    Those who seek to justify themselves frequently find themselves in contempt of court and charged a fine for their condeuct. If it continues they may even find themselves debarred.
    Those who do not seek to justify themselves get no special reward for this, but avoid the penalties that others incur.
    Speaking of the accused, it is a judge that generally decides whether charges are pressed; what bail is, or if they are even detained; what evidence is admissable; and finally, what the sentence is if convicted. It truth, at the accused’s request the judge can also declare the virdict (waiving right to trial by jury). A person who seeks to justify themselves is one who seeks to subvert the system, to bride judges, or convince others that, regardless of the law, he should not be punished for his actions. One who seeks the judge to justify him surrenders himself to the court, declares the truth, and then lets the judge make the ruling as is his right.

    Whether we are compared to the Lawyers or the accused, the doer of the law is not one that seeks to justify himself, but seeks to have the court justify him. The one that seeks to justify himself is the one that breaks the law, but seeks to be excused from it. It is the one that seeks the loopholes, and looks to technicallities to allow him to slip through. In short, it is one that lives by the letter of the law, and not by its spirit; those who “have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith” (Matthew 23: 23)
    It is of these people that Christ refers when he says “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7: 21-23) These people knew who Christ was and were looking for him, but had saught to judtify themselves, and had not sought God’s judgment. They are workers of iniquity for they rely on their works, but do not truly obey the spirit of the law.

  81. April 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Shem

    The meaning you try to impute to the one line Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 contradicts every other passage where he explained we are saved by grace through faith without works. Those other passages matter too. They also give context to Romans 2:13.

    THis is the courtroom :

    GOd is the judge
    We are the accused and are Guilty
    Jesus stood in our place
    Jesus took upon himself the punishment we deserved yet he led a perfect life
    Jesus gives us His righteousness and speaks on our behalf
    God declares us not guilty because he accepts CHrist’s righteousness notwithstanding what we have done.

    “28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

    The passage above rebuts every claim you make about justification by works.

    “21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

  82. 82 shematwater
    April 23, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    DAVID

    “Those other passages matter too.”

    I never claimed otehrwise, but they do not contradict anything. You still are not getting it.
    Let me try to lay it out for you. God justifies our works; this then proves our faith; and then our faith justifies us. Of course this is made possible by the Grace of Christ.

    “The passage above rebuts every claim you make about justification by works.”

    No, it doesn’t. It actually supports it completely. You just aren’t seeing it.

  83. 83 choosethechrist
    April 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.

    “This is pictured as an attainable goal! I can only assume by that that there are members of the LDS Church who right now claim that they have no more disposition to do evil but to good continually.”

    They can claim it, but are they being truthful or are they in denial. They can’t fool God.

    How many Mormons here can say that they are 100% free from sin?

  84. 84 choosethechrist
    April 24, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.

    “This is pictured as an attainable goal! I can only assume by that that there are members of the LDS Church who right now claim that they have no more disposition to do evil but to good continually.”

    They can claim it, but are they being truthful? They can’t fool God.

    How many Mormons here can say that they are 100% free from sin?

  85. 85 JBR
    April 24, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Choosethechrist said:
    “They can claim it, but are they being truthful? They can’t fool God.”

    No they can’t… but they can fool themselves. When Spencer Kimball is quoted saying:

    ….. “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.”

    and when this is said:

    ….. “then our faith justifies us.”

    show’s the satanic perversion of what it is to be justified that Mormonism finaly comes to understand it to be. It circles back to “good ol’ me” … despite that “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood”, grace is nothing more than leftovers “after all I can do”.

  86. 86 joshtried
    April 24, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    To be honest, my DISPOSITION is that of someone this wishes to blurt obsenities at each of you at this point. Am I going to? No, I am not.
    Once again, read the definition of disposition vs. actually doing something. If you cant understand english language then we need to be discussing something other than scripture or LDS belief.
    As to “can any of them say….”
    I can honestly say I have no disposition to molest a child. I have no disposition to do bodily harm to children. Have I ommitted every inclination to do bad in my life? Not yet. Can this happen in this life? Through the Grace of God, I believe this can happen. You just keep limiting God. I will continue to believe he has the power to do anything.

  87. 87 Kent
    April 24, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    joshtried said, “I can honestly say I have no disposition to molest a child. I have no disposition to do bodily harm to children. Have I ommitted every inclination to do bad in my life? Not yet. Can this happen in this life? Through the Grace of God, I believe this can happen. You just keep limiting God. I will continue to believe he has the power to do anything.”

    I don’t have any dispostion to molest a child, do bodily harm to a child, or, for that matter, an adult either. Bu I do have a disposition to commit other sins that would keep me out of heaven if I depended on what I do instead of what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and I will never ever overcome this completely no matter how hard I try and Josh, neither do you and neither can anyone else that has ever been born.

  88. 88 choosethechrist
    April 24, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    Josh said, “Have I ommitted every inclination to do bad in my life? Not yet. Can this happen in this life? Through the Grace of God, I believe this can happen. You just keep limiting God. I will continue to believe he has the power to do anything.”

    Alma 11:37
    37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

    Alma 34:33-35
    33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not bprocrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

    34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

    35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

    Josh, you have admitted that your repentance is not complete. If you were to die today or at any other time before your repentance is complete, you would be sealed to Satan according these verses from Alma. I also understand that it has been taught that repentance in the after life is 100x harder than in this life.

    Do you believe these verses from the BOM? If so, how do you deal with being sealed to Satan?

  89. April 24, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    Josh

    “28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

    Its the truth.

  90. 90 JBR
    April 24, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10

    The reason one must be justified by the Biblical definition and not Mormonism’s is because of James 2:10.

    Sorry Josh… because of Mormonism’s defintion of justification … the part of “good ol’ me” that isn’t perfect will make up for any ” no dispositions” that you might think you have.

    You will be found guilty of every disgusting sin even if you never actually physically did them.

  91. April 25, 2012 at 1:27 am

    Just thought I should leave you with a few verses:

    Proverbs 19:5
    A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.

    Proverbs 6:16-19
    There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

    Exodus 20:16
    “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    Proverbs 19:9
    A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

    1 John 2:4
    Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

    Revelation 21:8
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Ephesians 4:25
    Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

    John 8:44
    You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    1 Peter 5:8
    Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

    Matthew 19:18
    He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

    Romans 13:9
    For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Hebrews 12:1
    Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

    Hebrews 5:12
    For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food.

  92. April 25, 2012 at 2:34 am

    Kate

    “28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

  93. April 25, 2012 at 2:43 am

    Kate

    Romans 4:1-5

    1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Note what it says in verse 2 “but not before God” works do not justify us before God, it is faith and faith alone.

  94. April 25, 2012 at 2:46 am

    Kate

    Galatians 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Titus 3:5
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

  95. 95 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 2:50 am

    “For we maintatin that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law (of faith)? ”
    This is what I see you missing. We are talking about 2 different laws. You try and say we work for ourselves. we tell you we work for God.

    As to Abraham, he observed the law through faith. This is why Jesus condemns the Pharacies. The are observing only the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. The spirit is to have faith, the letter is do not sin and go to heaven. The spirit recognizes one cannot refrain completely from sin, the letter finds loopholes.

  96. 96 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:01 am

    The reason one must be justified by the Biblical definition and not Mormonism’s is because of James 2:10.
    Sorry Josh… because of Mormonism’s defintion of justification … the part of “good ol’ me” that isn’t perfect will make up for any ” no dispositions” that you might think you have.
    You will be found guilty of every disgusting sin even if you never actually physically did them.

    My “no disposition” comes from the Lord. I am not saying that i will never commit another sin. This is the false pretense this whole debate is hinged on. I even quoted it above and showed how it was not an accurate assumption. To say that Christ does not have the power to help someone commit no more sin is the greatest of travesties. Every single one of you saying that God does not have this power is being downright untruthful about the matter. God does have this power. If a man ask sincerly, God can grant this to a man. I am sorry that you are not ready to give up wanting to commit sin. It is only you holding you back from this “no more disposition”. Let God work in your life. Give up your sins, your thoughts, your life to him. Give him everything and let him make all the corrections. Quit caring about how others look, or how you look to others. Care what God thinks. Care that he does not want you to sin any more. Care that he wants you to be perfect. Allow him to make you perfect. Just let go.

    To the next point, what do you mean will be? I already have been found guilty. I know this. Had Christ not come into my life, i would still carry the guilty sentence, as well as the death penalty. I have given this to Christ. I know that he made that govenors call to stay my execution. I knwo that he has forgiven me of being guilty.

  97. 97 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:16 am

    Choose, how exactly does this apply?
    Alma 11:37
    37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins

    Do you think i am holding onto my sins? Can you explain to me how you think we are being saved in our sins? Honestly, if you say by doing works for ourselves, i will scream out loud and not reply to your explanation at all. We dont believe this, and never have. If you want to repeat this, you are wrong, and being argumentative to boot.

    “Josh, you have admitted that your repentance is not complete.”
    Where have i admitted that my repentance is not complete? In that my thoughts are not perfect? If they were, i wouldnt be here talking to you and becoming more upset with how anyone here refuses to accept our teachings based on our understanding of them. I have not committed blasphemy, which is the only unforgivable sin. In that, i am forgiven up to this very moment.
    Second, i really dont care what you think about my repentance. That is in no way for you to judge. I do not judge whether you have repented properly. I may judge your baptism to be done inaccurately, or your confirmation of the holy ghost done inaccurately (if you have had it conferred upon you). What i MIGHT do is ask if you repented sincerely. Honestly though, the answer does not concern me. It concerns you and God. It should never concern me. I dont care what rewards you get here on earth, or in heaven. I care about what our heavenly Father would have us do right now.

  98. 98 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:19 am

    Kent: “I don’t have any dispostion to molest a child, do bodily harm to a child, or, for that matter, an adult either. Bu I do have a disposition to commit other sins that would keep me out of heaven if I depended on what I do instead of what Jesus did”

    Kent, who are we saying gives us either disposition? Disposition to do good comes from God. Disposition to do evil comes from Satan. Yes, if you depend on what YOU do, you will wind up in hell. If you depend on what Christ does through you, you will have eternal life because Christ will not do evil through you.

  99. 99 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:21 am

    No they can’t… but they can fool themselves. When Spencer Kimball is quoted saying: ….. “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.”

    JBR, i am only going to make one comment on this. It is obviously taken out of context, both in the paragraph it was spoken, and definitely out of the context of LDS teachings.

  100. 100 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:24 am

    Kent: “I will never ever overcome this completely no matter how hard I try and Josh, neither do you and neither can anyone else that has ever been born.”

    I didnt say i will try on my own. Go ahead, say God cant help me with this. I know he can if i am willing. God can help you with it to, if you are willing. If you want to try and do it on your own, be my guest.

  101. 101 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 3:29 am

    How many Mormons here can say that they are 100% free from sin?

    I can. I am free from sin because Jesus Christ has forgiven me. I love being free from the bondage of sin. I love the power of God working through me. I love God. Praise Him in all his glory.

    Just a side question here guys… How is someone that is supposed to be lead astray by satan praising God? In case you missed it:

    PRAISE GOD! Thank you God for all you have given me.

    I praise Him in no way to mock Him. I praise Him because only He is to be praised. There is none other responsible for the forgiveness in my life. Satan cannot forgive me. Satan cant fool me into thinking i am forgiven. Christ can forgive, Christ has forgiven.

  102. April 25, 2012 at 5:12 am

    David,
    I guess you didn’t get my implication….you guys keep stating lies about our beliefs and I was pointing out how bad that is. If you are trying to point out that you are justified to do so….it doesn’t work.

  103. 103 shematwater
    April 25, 2012 at 5:23 am

    Wow. It seems that we have quite the pointless dialogue going here. Josh has done a fantastic job of lwying it out, but since no one here actually cares to listen to him and concider what he says his words become meaningless.
    In other words, if the true gospel is preached in the world, and no one listens, who is benefited?

    Let me go over justification one more time. As we seem to have contradictory statements from the Bible itself, let us examine them. I will use only the KJV, because I have long ago realized that the other translations do not always carry the same meaning. I will also reference the LDS footnotes and other study helps at http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/3?lang=eng, as I know I can trust them.

    So, lets get started. I will give only one sample of each.
    “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3: 28.

    “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Romans 2: 13

    I think it is fitting to use two verses from the same epistle of Paul, as doing so shows more effectively how they work together.
    When we look at the basic meaning of these verses we get both a statement that it is works that Justify us, as well as one that says justification is without works. Going on the assumption that everything in the Bible is true, this leaves us with a little bit of a dilemma. Now there are a few ways to try adn solve this dilemma.

    We can agree with David that the second is only talking about works that are a result of faith, but that does not really fit the verse. If Paul was talking about works as a by product of faith, than the wording he uses becomes misleading. It would have been simply, and less confusing to say that it is faith that justifies, but only faith that produces works. However, even with this it is still truly the works that justify, for they are what proves faith.

    Second, we can take the understand that Romans 3: 28 is speaking only of the Law of Moses, and thus does not apply to works by faith. This becomes very reasonable when we read in Romans 3: 27 that it is the Law of Faith, as distinguished from the Law of Works. However, this understanding does have to be rejected by those using the NIV, as that verse does not translate this verse as making a distinction between the two.

    Thirdly, we can conclude that while it is indeed both that are true, but are simply describing two different aspects of the same doctrine. This is the interpretation I would take. Thus, as we read in Romans 3: 28, the actually process of justification is done through faith, without the deed of the law. Now, the term without means apart from, or without the intervention of the works. This means that the actually justification itself is something that is not affected by the works of each person. It is a process that is only directly affected by the faith of the individual. However, we also read that it is the doer who is justified, which shows clearly that, while the work itself has no effect of the justification process, it is only those who do the works that are indeed justified.
    The conclusion is that a man is justified by his faith, because he had the works. One who lacks the works will not be justified, while one who lacks faith cannot be justified.

  104. April 25, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Josh

    “We are talking about 2 different laws.”

    Where do any of the new testament writers talk about dividing up the laws into two sets? Paul did NOT mention that we are justified apart of one set of laws and have to obey another to be saved. It says “28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28 The are no qualifications or fine print on those words.

    This belief that the LDS church puts forth diminishes Christ’s all sufficient sacrfice and doesn’t give Him the full credit for His suffering and death on the cross.

  105. 105 choosethechrist
    April 25, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Josh said, I can. “I am free from sin because Jesus Christ has forgiven me. I love being free from the bondage of sin. I love the power of God working through me. I love God. Praise Him in all his glory.”

    Let me remind you what your church teaches:

    3rd Article of Faith
    We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    Abraham 3:25, 26
    And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; …and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

    Moroni 10:32-33
    Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

    D&C 25:15
    Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

    D&C 88:35
    That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

    Josh, your beliefs don’t sound very Mormon. Your statement does not seem to fit Mormon doctrine or teachings. You have said your repentance is not complete. Is Christ truly sufficient for you? Before you answer that question, let me ask you some more questions. Based on the 3rd article of faith, are you saved if you have not been obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel? You said you have not done ALL things God has commanded. Have you kept your first and second estate? You have not denied yourself of ALL ungodliness. Is his grace sufficient for you? You have not kept his commandments CONTINUALLY. Will you receive a crown of righteousness and go where he is? You have broken a law and have not abideth by law. Are you sanctified by law, mercy, justice and judgment? Are you filthy still?

    Let me ask this again, Josh, is Christ sufficient for you?

  106. April 25, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    Kate:

    “I guess you didn’t get my implication….you guys keep stating lies about our beliefs and I was pointing out how bad that is. If you are trying to point out that you are justified to do so….it doesn’t work.”

    Your implication is meaningless because you are being told the truth. What I’m am trying point out, I do by telling you what Paul says in no uncertain terms. I can’t help the fact that when you read something like:

    “28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.” Romans 3:27-28

    You, like Shem and Josh, claim that it means completely the opposite of what it says. That’s what the LDS faith does to the gospel of Jesus. It diminishes it to unfinished business, to a mere starting point, a loan, as something that only accomplishes a partial rescue. To treat God’s ultimate gift of undeserved love and grace as something less than what it was, and treat Christ as merely a creditor, is – to put it mildy, tragic, but it is immeasurabley far worse than that. The tragedy is what it will mean for you if you refuse to see the truth. As I have said before Kate. We are not your enemies. All the NON-LDS members on this blog care about what happens to you, and your Mormon friends. We care about it alot. This passage in 2 Corinthians is striking indeed for our discussions on this blog:

    “3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. . . . 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.” 2 Corinthians 3-4; 13-15.

    As believers we put our trust in Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice for our sins securing our place in Heaven
    with God. He saved us and adopted us as His own children. Now, we are who we are because of Him and are slaves to righteousness. So when we see the summation of the whole law in one sentence: “14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    We have no choice – we have to tell you the truth even when it is hard to hear.

  107. April 25, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Josh

    “How many Mormons here can say that they are 100% free from sin?

    I can. I am free from sin because Jesus Christ has forgiven me. I love being free from the bondage of sin. I love the power of God working through me. I love God. Praise Him in all his glory.”

    “7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:7-9

    Subsequent obedience to more laws and requirements does not forgive your sins. It does not take years or centuries to be forgiven – that is a lie spoken by a false prophet. No false prophet is from God.

  108. 108 JBR
    April 25, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    choosethechrist,
    Thanks for re-stating what Mormonism teaches ….. taking all of those individually and compile them together, shows that Spencer Kimball’s quote is in context:

    …… “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.” ……….

    and Shem’s inadvertent exposing the same attitude:

    …… “then our faith justifies us.”
    |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

    Josh… the top two or the bottom two statements are from the lying pen:

    ………. “then our faith justifies us.”
    ………. “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.”

    or

    ………. “to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
    his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)

    ………. “It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33)

  109. 109 JBR
    April 25, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    “How many Mormons here can say that they are 100% free from sin?” …

    Mormons..? none.

    Christians …? We can.

    ………. “to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
    his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)

    ………. “It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33)

  110. April 25, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Shem

    “The conclusion is that a man is justified by his faith, because he had the works.”

    Wrong conclusion. We don’t simply rely on Romans 3 in isolation. We can reconcile what is said in Romans 3:27 with what is said in James 2 and even in Ephesians 2: 4-10 which also lays it out plainly:

    “4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

    Your interpretation renders every passage speaking of being justified by faith and not by works as meaningless. There is nothing misleading about describing the fruits of faith and justification because one flows from the other, but that doesn’t stop others from confusing cause and effect. If one is not looking to see a conflict, there is no conflict, but that doesn’t mean one can’t be misread into it.

    We are not justified because of our works. Works do not cause our justication.

    “3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:3-5

  111. 111 choosethechrist
    April 25, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Josh said, I can. “I am free from sin because Jesus Christ has forgiven me. I love being free from the bondage of sin. I love the power of God working through me. I love God. Praise Him in all his glory.”

    Salvation comes by grace, faith and works. Unless a man will adhere to the doctrine and walk in faith, accepting the truth and observing the commandments as they have been given, it will be impossible for him to receive eternal life, no matter how much he may confess with his lips that Jesus is the Christ, or believe that his Father sent him into the world for the redemption of man… So it is necessary, not merely that we believe, but that we repent, and in faith perform good works until the end; and then shall we receive the reward of the faithful and a place in the celestial kingdom of God.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, 2:311).

    Josh, you have confessed Christ with your lips, but you have not observed the commandments as they have been given. Has Christ forgiven you?

  112. 112 shematwater
    April 25, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    DAVID

    My understanding makes nothing meaning, but takes into consideration everything everyone has said. You have said I confuse cause and effect, and yet it is Paul that rights in terms that justification is the effect of doing the law (Romans 2: 13) not the other way around, and you claim. He says it is the doers who are justified, not that the justified will be doers. The same is true of James. The cause and effect that they outline is one of works causing justification, but only when those works are done in faith. That is what they both teach, and no amount of twisting their words to alter the cause and effect they teach will actually change their meaning.

    “This belief that the LDS church puts forth diminishes Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice and doesn’t give Him the full credit for His suffering and death on the cross.”

    We give him more credit than you do. The entire purpose of this thread is to prove that Christ does not have the power to change us enough so that we never sin again. All you have is a substitute; someone who says “well, since you’ll never make I will do it for you.” This is far less than one who says “I know that with some help you will be able to do it all, and I am here to give that help.”
    You will never reach a point in life that you truly no longer sin, because you deny God has the power to make it possible. We, on the other hand, know that he truly can do all things, for all things are possible with God, and so we strive to attain that sinless state that he has promised we can achieve with his assistance.

    CHOOSE

    Again you display an incredible ignorance of our doctrine, and try to justify your false claims concerning it by throwing around a few verses that speak only to a portion of the doctrine, and not to all of it as a whole.

    Simply put, you do not have any clue what you are talking about, and never have. I would suggest you leave the subject alone until you actually gain an understanding.

    JBR

    Choose did not give LDS doctrine. It was only a twisted and false image that is more of a smoke screen set up to conceal what is really taught.

    Here is the true doctrine; accept or reject it as you will, but do not claim that we teach anything else.
    We are required to perform our labors and do the work that Christ has commanded. However, on our own we would never be able to do so. It is impossible. This is why God sent his Son, that he may perform the atonement, clean us of our past sins, and make it possible, with his help, to abandon them. The process is ongoing, and for some will extend into the eternal worlds. However, if we are honestly striving in this life, putting our trust in Christ, and only Christ, than we will be forgiven of all our mistakes, and stand guiltless before the judgment bar of God.
    At baptism, we make a covenant to obey God. In return he promises to forgive our sins and wash us clean. Every Sunday we partake of the sacrament, renewing this covenant, and thus again gain a remission of our sins. As long as we do so worthily we are sinless when we eat the bread and drink the water. That is the great promise of God.
    Also, we read in the epistle of James that “the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” Thus anytime that a person has the faith to be healed by the power of God he is also made sinless.
    So, when Josh says he is sinless I accept this declaration, as such is not only possible, but is common. I do not know his life, and nor do I judge his actions. If he is worthy to partake of the sacrament than he is without sin, for his sins have been forgiven and washed clean.

  113. 113 choosethechrist
    April 25, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Shem said, “Simply put, you do not have any clue what you are talking about, and never have. I would suggest you leave the subject alone until you actually gain an understanding.”

    It’s your doctrine and it’s in black and white. Are you telling me you don’t believe your own doctrine?

    While we lack recollection of our pre-mortal life, before coming to this earth all of us understood definitely the purpose of our being here. We would be expected to gain knowledge, educate ourselves, train ourselves. We were to control our urges and desires, master and control our passions, and overcome our weaknesses, small and large. We were to eliminate sins of omission and of commission, and to follow the laws and commandments given us by our Father.” (Spencer Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.5)

    Is this or is this not the goal: We were to eliminate sins of omission and of commission, and to follow the laws and commandments given us by our Father.

    If Josh has not eliminated his sins, how can he be forgiven? How can he receive eternal life?

  114. 114 shematwater
    April 25, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    CHOOSE

    You can stand there and quote prophets and scripture until your fingers bleed, but until you actually put in an effort to understand what it is that you are reading it will do you no good.

    Your problem is that you only want to focus on the goal, but leave out the process by which it is achieved.

  115. 115 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    “Is this or is this not the goal: We were to eliminate sins of omission and of commission, and to follow the laws and commandments given us by our Father.
    If Josh has not eliminated his sins, how can he be forgiven? How can he receive eternal life?”

    1st. Yes, it is the goal. How can i be forgiven? By asking choose. None of us can perfect ourselves. Not a single mormon on the face of this earth has ever spoken those words as truth. I do not do anything i do for you to think i am right with God choose. I do them because i know whether or not i am. That should not matter to you at all, but apparently are more worried about appearances rather than what actually has happened. I dont care if you think i am “saved”. I care that truth is taught. Truth is not what is being taught here regarding LDS scripture or LDS beliefs. If it was, i would not be posting here.
    Choose, do you not know everything but blasphemy can be forgiven? If i do not eliminate sins of omission or of commission, it doesnt matter. What matters is that i accept Christ, and dont commit blasphemy. Accepting Christ is no small matter either. Portraying it as such demeans so much of the gospel that it really is not even funny. Claiming you accept Christ and actually accepting him are 2 different things.

  116. April 25, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Shem

    “You will never reach a point in life that you truly no longer sin, because you deny God has the power to make it possible. We, on the other hand, know that he truly can do all things, for all things are possible with God, and so we strive to attain that sinless state that he has promised we can achieve with his assistance.”

    What then would you say to Paul?

    “14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:14-25

    I will be sinner as long as I live, but it is not because I deny God anything. Its because I, like you, still have a sinful nature. But I have one thing you don’t.

    “All you have is a substitute; someone who says “well, since you’ll never make I will do it for you.” ”

    EXACTLY!!!!! AND Thanks Be to GOD!

    “3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:3-4

    That “someone” is the ONE through whom all things were made – Jesus. The One I put my complete and total trust in. I am so thankful for my substitute I can never thank Him enough. Thank You Father for sending your Son to be MY Substitute!!! Praise Be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!!
    ( Okay, I want to g sing a hymn now!) Thank You Jesus!

    Now back to you – Shem . This is MY substitute:

    “31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
    34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

    THAT is my substitute and I’m thankful beyond words that He is ALL I have. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!

    SHem – you don’t know what you are missing and you are missing everything.

  117. 117 choosethechrist
    April 25, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Josh said, “Choose, do you not know everything but blasphemy can be forgiven? If i do not eliminate sins of omission or of commission, it doesnt matter. What matters is that i accept Christ, and dont commit blasphemy. Accepting Christ is no small matter either.”

    Again, I can’t find anything that supports this statement in LDS doctrine or teachings.

  118. 118 joshtried
    April 25, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    That is because of your perception toward our doctrine. If I want to be racist, every black person I look at is going to be inferior to me. If I choose to believe the BoM is full of lies and statements that contadict the Bible, then I am never going to see the good it has to offer. Kate, Shem and I have expressed to you our understanding of the BoM as someone who is not biased against it. You refuse to believe our understand, to consider what we understand may be consistent with what I am now saying. You are prejudice with regard to our doctrine. Catholics were just as prejudice to what Martin Luther had to say initially. With prejudice, there is no room for understanding. You can continue in your prejudice, or you can continue in love and understanding.

  119. 119 shematwater
    April 26, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    DAVID

    “What then would you say to Paul?”

    I would say ‘Keep up the Good fight.’ Actually, since he is dead I would more likely say, ‘Way to go, Paul. You put up a good fight.’

    Speaking more directly to the passage you quote (Romans 7: 14-25) I would congratulate him for his eloquence in describing the natural state of man and need we have for the helping hand of God’s grace. In this passage Paul is describing the struggles that a man faces trying subdue the carnal body to the will of the spirit, and declares that by himself it is impossible, for he “delight in the law of God after the inward man…But [sees] another law…warring against the law of [his] mind…” Of course he is perfectly right that our bodies war against our desires to be righteous, and so we need the help of Christ.

    In no way does he deny the possibility of perfection, he only is discussing the difficulty of it, and the impossibility without the aid of Christ.
    Paul states that he was not yet perfect. He wrote to the Philippians “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect…” (3: 12) He did not deny the possibility of this however, and declared that “this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” (3: 13-14) He was constantly striving for this perfection as the mark that attained the prize of the high calling.
    He also does not deny that other are perfect, for in the same epistle he calls on the saints in these words “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (3: 15) In his epistle to the Corinthians he again confirms that some had already attained perfection, for he writes “”Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect…” (1 Corinthians 2: 6).
    Paul understood very well the possibility of perfection in this life, and constantly stove to attain it.

    “you don’t know what you are missing”

    I know exactly what I am missing, and you can have it. It is you that are missing everything, for you will never be perfect, while I can be, and if I live continually striving to be so I will eventually attain it through the grace of God.

    CHOOSE

    Look at Doctrine and Covenants 76 again, and try to understand it this time.
    Also, read Matt. 12:31; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Heb. 6:6; 10:26; 2 Ne. 31:14; Jacob 6:8; 7:19; Mosiah 2:37; Alma 24: 30; 39:6; Moro. 8:28; D&C 76:35; 132:27.

    To put it simply, the only sin that will have you cast out of heaven for all eternity is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. All others will eventually be forgiven and those committing them will enter heaven in some degree.
    However, in order to attain the highest degree one must accept Christ, shown in performing the ordinances that he has required of us.


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