22
May
12

Curse of Dark Skin

Lesson 21 of the Gospel Doctrine Class covers Mosiah 29 and chapters 1-4 in Alma. The majority of this section from the Book of Mormon talks about government.  That is also the emphasis of the teacher’s manual.  There is, however, one very controversial verse in this section, Alma 3:6.  It says:

“And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a acurse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.”

The teacher’s manual does not address this verse.  On the one hand, that is not surprising.  But, on the other hand, it is surprising because it has played such a large role in the history of Mormonism.  On the basis of it and 2 Nephi 5:21 for about 150 years blacks were denied the priesthood.  They were banned until 1978 when President Kimball made the announcement that he had received a revelation lifting the ban.  (This announcement is now part of LDS Scripture.)

What is also interesting is how some Mormons try to say this verse doesn’t mean that the Lamanites had dark skin.  I just read a blog whose author was arguing that the dark skin was just a metaphor for the spiritual state they were in.  If that is correct, why then the long ban on blacks in the priesthood?

Isn’t it interesting that Jesus lived in the Middle East, at the crossroads of three continents?  I doubt if he looked like a northern European as he is often pictured. He, most likely, had the darker complexion of many Middle Eastern people.  In that way, even by his appearance, people from different races and cultures could identify with him.

But that is not the important point. What is important is that the Bible teaches that God doesn’t show favoritism.  “Knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” (Ephesians 6:9)

When it comes to people’s relationship with God, there is only one important thing.  How does one approach God?  Do they come before God only on the basis of Jesus’ righteousness for them?  Or do they come claiming their own righteousness?  Or do they come mixing in their righteousness with Jesus’ righteousness?  God will only acquit (justify) those who come solely on the basis of Jesus’ righteousness for them.  “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”  (Romans 3:24)

 

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83 Responses to “Curse of Dark Skin”


  1. 1 Kent
    May 22, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    I posted this on other threads but it seems, for the most part, no one wants to touch this subject. I do recall that someone did comment one time but he compared Brigham Young’s tirade about white people, “the chosen seed, ” mixing with black people with God telling Isreal to wipe out an entire peoples in the old testament but I show how that comparison doesn’t add up in a paragraph below.

    Isn’t it supposed to be scripture when one of the Mormon prophets says something especially if he says something is God’s law?

    Well how come Mormons don’t believe that my friend, a white person who married a black person should be put to death on the spot, that it is God’s law, and that this will always be so? After all your prophet said this is the case, that it is God’s law, and that it would always be so.

    Now I am sure that no one, today especially, would advocate killing race mixers but could it be that Brigham Young really wasn’t a prophet of God at all but he was just a product of his time with the racist attitudes that went with it?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    By the way, comparing Young’s comments to the times in the old testament when God said to wipe out an entire race of people doesn’t wash here as those examples were for that time only for those specific situations and God didn’t say, like Young did regarding race mixers, that it would always be so.

    You also can’t say that it just showed Young to be a flawed human being because, again, he said killing race mixers was God’s law and that it would always be so.

    It is clear that the Mormon Church has a history of racial bias against people of color and that could be excused if weren’t for the Mormon scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, which are supposed to be the word of God and comments by prophets such as Brigham Young, who said he was speaking God’s law on the subject which is also supposed to be the word of God.

    I’ll tell you, the race mixer thing hits home with me as it is personal. I am of mixed blood, white European and American Indian, so does that mean my ancestors should have been put to death?

  2. 2 shematwater
    May 23, 2012 at 4:39 am

    MARK

    Actually, your article here is chock full of errors.

    First of all, the Lamanites, though they did have dark skin, were not banned from the Priesthood. Samuel, the prophet who gave the great sign of Christ’s birth, was a Lamanite. The American Indians are direct descendents of the Lamanites and there has never been a ban on them holding the priesthood.
    These are not the verses that started the ban, or that have, or should ever be used to support it. The only Books of Scripture that actually talk about this are the Books of Moses and Abraham, and it is to those books that one must turn on the subject.

    I will also state that those who want to believe that the dark sin was metaphorical can do so all they want, but they are wrong. However, the curse was not the dark skin. The curse was separation from God and thus a loss of priesthood authority. The dark skin was a mark put on them so that the Nephites would not be phycisally attracted to them, thus preventing the mixing of the two groups and causing iniquity among the Nephites.
    It is also important to note that the curse was not a ban on the race. Laman and Lemuel, and those who willingly following them, lost all privilage to the priesthood, and thus passed this on to their descendents. However, as often as their descendents repented and joined themselves to the church of God the priesthood was restored to them. Thus this curse is not the same as the ban that was on the black race.

    KENT

    The only answer I will give is this: We do not live under God’s law. We live under the Law of the United States, or what ever earthly authoirty God has allowed to be formed and govern the children of men. As such we are bound by the laws of those governments, and we “render to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s.”
    However, in the Old Testament they were under the Law of God, and this is why they were ordered to kill all the people so as to prevent the mixing of the seeds. You are right that it was for that time, but it was for that time because at that time Israel was under the Law of God.

  3. 3 JBR
    May 24, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Alma 3:6 is just one of many in the series of textual proofs of the contradictions between the truth of the Bible and falsehoods that Joseph Smith received. It just snowballs to almost the ridiculous.

    How else does one honestly, with a straight face, truly thinks that OT Samuel was a Lamanite unless God finally makes the delusion so powerful that one isn’t able to see that Alma 3:6 contradicts the Bible.

  4. 4 shematwater
    May 24, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    JBR

    Whose is being ridiculous?

    “How else does one honestly, with a straight face, truly thinks that OT Samuel was a Lamanite”

    Now, I can only imagine that you are refering to my comment that “Samuel, the prophet who gave the great sign of Christ’s birth, was a Lamanite.” Either you are just completely ignorant as to the characters of the Book of Mormon, or you have intentionally tried to twist my words in yet another attempt to discredit what you can’t actually argue against.

    For those who don’t know, and possibly to educate you, I will post here the chapter headings to Heleman chapters 13-15, which is in the Book of Mormon.
    “The prophecy of Samuel, the Lamanite, to the Nephites. Comprising chapters 13 to 15 inclusive.
    Chapter 13
    Samuel the Lamanite prophesies the destruction of the Nephites unless they repent—They and their riches are cursed—They reject and stone the prophets, are encircled about by demons, and seek for happiness in doing iniquity. About 6 B.C.
    Chapter 14
    Samuel predicts light during the night and a new star at Christ’s birth—Christ redeems men from temporal and spiritual death—The signs of his death include three days of darkness, the rending of the rocks, and great upheavals of nature. About 6 B.C.
    Chapter 15
    The Lord chastened the Nephites because he loved them—Converted Lamanites are firm and steadfast in the faith—The Lord will be merciful unto the Lamanites in the latter days. About 6 B.C.”

    You will note that this is not referencing the Old Testament prophet who was the last judge of Israel. It is talking about a Lamanite who lived five years before the birth of Christ who prophecied to the Nephites, and gave the sign of the new star and a day, a night, and a day as if one day; known as the great sign of Christ’s birth.

    Please, either learn about what you are trying to speak against, or refrain from twisting words to suit your agenda.

  5. 5 joshtried
    May 25, 2012 at 1:52 am

    As has been used in scripture numerous times, mixing of bllod almost always resulted in a mixing of scripture. When it was followed then, the people were blessed. When it was not followed, the people fell away from God. My understanding is that God’s commandment had always been “dont mix with unbelievers,” just like it has always been his commandment to obey the law 100%. we dont make the rules, we follow them to the best we are able, and accept Christ for the rest.

  6. 6 joshtried
    May 25, 2012 at 1:54 am

    That should read
    “when the commandment to not mix was followed… When that commandment was not followed…”

  7. 7 JBR
    May 26, 2012 at 2:25 am

    Shem …
    my mistake, I thought you were refering to the only true prophet by the name of Samuel found in the Bible.

  8. 8 JBR
    May 26, 2012 at 2:30 am

    Josh,
    That’s correct …. “it has always been his commandment to obey the law 100%”.
    God never said that he rewards people for having a swiss cheeze attitude toward the law like you phrased it…”we follow them to the best we are able, and accept Christ for the rest.”

  9. 9 joshtried
    May 26, 2012 at 2:48 am

    JBR, when we accept Christ we follow the law 100%. In accepting Christ, we commit to following his example of a good life. You seem to be getting hung up on the order of my words instead of looking at everything I have written regarding this subject over the past several months.

  10. 10 joshtried
    May 26, 2012 at 2:53 am

    Also JBR, I have a question for you regarding your comment to Shem. Are you saying that only the words that are currently in the Bible as Christians hold it (for purpose of this discussion, we will say the books listed in the KJV of the Bible) are the true words of God ever spoken, and that if it is not currently in the bible then it is not of God?

  11. 11 shematwater
    May 26, 2012 at 3:56 am

    JBR

    “my mistake, I thought you were refering to the only true prophet by the name of Samuel found in the Bible.”

    Again you attempt to discredit me instead of actually addressing what I said. From this comment it is obvious that you intentionally twisted my words to set a trap, which failed by the way. Your underhanded tactics only serve to discredit you.

    As to obeying the law, we do that we rely on Christ and repent. It is just like a traffic fine. We are guilty of violating the law, but once the fine is paid we are again 100% in regards to it.
    When we come to Christ and accept him we are saying that we are willing to pay any fines He chooses to assign, and through repentence we do so. This is keeping the law 100%.

  12. 12 Kent
    May 26, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Shem said, “As to obeying the law, we do that we rely on Christ and repent. It is just like a traffic fine. We are guilty of violating the law, but once the fine is paid we are again 100% in regards to it.
    When we come to Christ and accept him we are saying that we are willing to pay any fines He chooses to assign, and through repentence we do so. This is keeping the law 100%.”

    But Jesus already paid the penalty for us once and for all so by saying, we have to “pay any fines He chooses to assign,” we make His sacrifice meaningless and we doom ourselves.

    Jesus said it is finished. You don’t owe any fines as “the wages of sin is death” and you can’t pay any fines as the only “fine” you can pay is having your part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone forever.

    Again, Jesus said it is finished just accept and believe that he did it for you!

    John 19:30

    30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    2 Corinthians 5:21

    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    1 Peter 2:24

    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    1 Peter 3:18

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

    Corinthians 5:21

    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

  13. 13 JBR
    May 26, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    ” JBR, when we accept Christ we follow the law 100%. In accepting Christ, we commit to following his example of a good life. You seem to be getting hung up on the order of my words instead of looking at everything I have written regarding this subject over the past several months. ”

    Actually… it can be said that you’ve been ignoring everything that has been written on this subject.

    1) Jesus is not our “example to follow” .. to try that is to be sent to hell (outer darkness).

    2) Either 100% by faith \ no works — or — 100% by obedienced to the law \ your works

    3) You’ll be sent to hell for not being 100% obedient to the law .. so says God.

  14. 14 JBR
    May 26, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Also JBR, I have a question for you regarding your comment to Shem. Are you saying that only the words that are currently in the Bible as Christians hold it (for purpose of this discussion, we will say the books listed in the KJV of the Bible) are the true words of God ever spoken, and that if it is not currently in the bible then it is not of God?

    REPLY:

    Yes, and that is what one of the things that historically defined who are Christians.

  15. 15 JBR
    May 26, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Shem,
    You’re paranoid if you think there’s a trap in a persons reply. You aren’t doing very well in the “do all you can do” department. If you think you’re going to be able to explain away your failure to God by pointing at me as your excuse, it won’t get you any further than Adam blaming Eve.

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    When we come to Christ and accept him we are saying that we are willing to pay any fines He chooses to assign, and through repentence we do so. This is keeping the law 100%.

    Really….. hmmm. Thanks for the future refernce. Too bad that people who attempt this figure out too late that they stand pennyless before God.

    Therefore as God revealed that person will be handed over to the jailer, bounded, tortured till you pay back 100%. Problem is that once in jail, one doesn’t make any income to repay.

    That Shem is your eternal fate if you keep pursuing the road tyou’re on.

  16. 16 joshtried
    May 26, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Kent, again thank you for the comment. Since you are not here to listen or to learn, I have no reply.

    JBR, Jesus is our example to follow, especially when he says to do things greater than he did.
    As for the Bible, how do you not see the Bible list books that it does not currently contain as scripture, yet deny they are scripture. Either the Bible is wrong and they are not scripture, or you are wrong. Apparently you trust yourself more than you trust scripture.
    Saying that you can have faith without works is wrong. Im not going into this again in depth.

  17. 17 Kent
    May 26, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    In another thread, if I remember correctly it was Shem, commented when I said that no one is worthy it would fit if I was saying no one is perfect. Well being worthy, in God’s eyes, is being perfect.
    And if we aren’t perfect in God’s eyes, then we have our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and we are not given any level of glory.

    Matthew 5:48

    48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    There is no way the words below from the Bible could possibly be saying there is any level of glory for those who are not worthy (perfect) and there is no way they are describing any so called telestial kingdom that is supposed to be better than anything here on earth.

    John 3:18

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    If we are honest with ourselves, to varying degrees of course, we are all guilty of something on this list from Revelation 21 so, no, we could not be considered, without Jesus, worthy (perfect).

    For example, have you ever told a lie? I know I have, guilty as charged. Have you ever gotten angry with someone for cutting you off on the road when you were driving? Well in the majority of cases the person didn’t do it on purpose. So chances are very good, if you were angry with that person, that you were angry with that person without a cause and Jesus said it is like you have committed murder and that you are in danger of the judgement.

    But the good news, the true gospel, is that Jesus is worthy (perfect) for us so believe in who He is and what He did by dying in our place to take the penalty we all deserve, no exceptions, to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves and by His rising again on the third day.

    Are you worthy enough (perfect) for eternal life this moment and would you be in the mansions where God is if you left this earth now?

    Take heart, Jesus is and you can know now, not later, that you will be God for eternity and not have your part in the lake of fire.

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  18. 18 Kent
    May 26, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Add on to my last post, yes we can repent, for example, if we are liars and we can repent for being angry with someone without a cause just as we can repent if we look at someone with lust in our hearts, which would put us in the category of the sexually immoral that is condemned in Revelation 21.

    But ask yourselves, can you honestly say we, while on earth, that we will never, ever do those things again?

    If not, then we are not perfect as our father in heaven is perfect (worthy) but the good news, the true gospel is that Jesus is perfect (worthy) so believe completely in who He is and what He did to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves!

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  19. 19 shematwater
    May 27, 2012 at 5:06 am

    KENT

    Just briefly: Perfection is what would be required if Christ had not performed the Atonement. Because of his sacrifice he now has the authority to set the terms of redemption, and he has not placed them at perfection, but has given us the means of repentence by which our lives can become acceptable to him; at which point he will freely claim us as his, allowing his sacrifice to fully redeem us.
    Now, to say that this makes his sacrifice meaningly is to have no understanding of what sacrifice is, and how things work. When a man works to achieve good grades in school it does not make the sacrifice of his parents to send him meaningless. They have sacrificed a great deal to make it possible for him to gain a degree, and him getting it is what makes their sacrifice have meaning. To not do the work is what would make their sacrifice meaningless.
    Also note that I didn’t actually say we had to pay a fine, but that we had to be willing to. Just like Abraham did not actually kill Isaac in an offering, but was willing to, and through that willingness was blessed.

    JBR

    I’m not paranoid. That would indicate that I made such accusations frequently, and generally without provocation. Paranoia is an irrational fear that someone, or something is out to get you. As the dictionary puts it, it is “baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.”
    Now, since you have stated that your motivation is to discredit our faith, and your comments are more on the personal slander side of things, my suspicion is not excessive, nor is it baseless. You want to alieviate these suspicions then stop making personal comments, and instead of tearing down our faith, try building up your own.

    “Are you saying that only the words that are currently in the Bible as Christians hold it (for purpose of this discussion, we will say the books listed in the KJV of the Bible) are the true words of God ever spoken, and that if it is not currently in the bible then it is not of God?
    REPLY:
    Yes, and that is what one of the things that historically defined who are Christians.”

    Just to give a list of those books that the Bible itself declares to be scripture:

    Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14)
    Book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18)
    Book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41)
    Book of Samuel the Seer (1 Chr. 29:29)
    Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chr. 29:29)
    Book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29)
    Prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29)
    Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22)
    Book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15)
    Book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34)
    Sayings of the Seers (2 Chr. 33:19)

    an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9)
    possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3)
    an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16)
    and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14).

    Some more obscure references (may be had under a different title):
    the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus
    the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25)
    the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).

    So, I take it that according to you none of these were actually inspired and do not actually contain the words of God revealed to men anciently.

  20. 20 Kent
    May 27, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Mormons, either accept or reject the true gospel of the Bible . It isn’t about accepting that Joseph Smith was a prophet, it isn’t about the Book of Mormon being true, it isn’t about the Mormon Church being true, and it isn’t about being worthy to enter any temple and perform a bunch of religious rituals and obey a bunch of ordinances.

    So it isn’t about a bunch of extra stuff added on to the Bible because the gospel didn’t need to be restored as it was never lost in the first place.

    It is about what Jesus did by dying on the cross in your place to save you, a sinner who can never save yourself, and by His rising again on the third day.

    So you can know now, not later, but this very moment that you will have eternal life in the mansion where God is.

    Reject the true gospel of the Bible and risk going to outer darkness which the Bible describes as being eternally seperated from God by having one’s part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

    Below is the true gospel of the Bible, what you must do to be saved, what the work of God is, and how we can have eternal life :

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs,WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?”
    31 So they said, “BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.”

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE SENT.”

    John 5:10-13

    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY: THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  21. 21 joshtried
    May 27, 2012 at 11:15 am

    Kent, thank you for the comment. Normally I wouldnt respond, but you and Mark here seem to be at odds, so I must ask do you agree with me or with Mark? Do I accept God or not? You Christians are confusing me.

  22. 22 shematwater
    May 27, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    I have to disagree with Kent here. What it is all about is truth. It doesn’t matter what others say or do, if something is true it is true, and rejecting it is folly.
    Thus it is all about whether the LDS church is true, because if it is than nothing Kent said means anything, as he is contradicting truth.
    It is also about the Book of Mormon, because if it is true than rejecting it will lead to damnation.
    It is also about Joseph Smith, because if he was truly a prophet than rejecting him will also lead to damnation.

    We should be seeking out truth, where ever it is. That is what it is all about.

  23. 23 Kent
    May 27, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Yes, there is some disagreement among Christians about how to come to faith so that we can have eternal life but there is no disagreement as to what that faith is and that it is all about what Jesus did to save us by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and it is about nothing else.

    Shem, I did seek out truth and I found it in the pages of the Bible and regarding my salvation I don’t need anything other than what is found in its pages.

    I usually use the New King James Version of the Bible but I can post the King James Version that says the same thing, that the gospel is Jesus dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. The gospel that Paul was given, that he passed on to others, and the same gospel that was given to us that we in turn pass on to others.

    If Mormons don’t believe what it says is it because they believe these passages are not translated correctly?

    Because if it is translated correctly, then how can anyone say it isn’t the gospel because the Bible is saying it is the gospel.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  24. 24 JBR
    May 28, 2012 at 2:00 am

    Shem …”not paranoia”, yet who suspects a “trap” that you’ve eluded, yet how many times do you state that our motivation is to discredit your faith …. ok. If you say there’s no paranoia.

    Thr Bible does not say that those books were scripture, that’s just wishful reading. they are not inspired.
    btw …. Jesus does not idenify them as scriptures either.

  25. 25 joshtried
    May 28, 2012 at 6:05 am

    JBR, it is not paranoia if you are correct. Shem was correct in his evaluation of your intent.
    It would have been paranoia if he simply thought you were trying to do something you were not, like how someone that smokes pot thinks every cop in the world is specifically looking for them.

  26. 26 Kent
    May 28, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Below is the contrast between the Mormon gospel and the true gospel of the Bible and yes they are different. So it is either about following a bunch of laws and ordinances, what we do, or it is about what Jesus Christ did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves.

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    So the Mormon Church does teach a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1 than what is taught in the Bible.

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO YOU THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  27. 27 JBR
    May 28, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Josh,
    I’m correct about my intent… for who should know better than myself. Deal with it.

  28. 28 Kent
    May 28, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Shem said, “I have to disagree with Kent here. What it is all about is truth. It doesn’t matter what others say or do, if something is true it is true, and rejecting it is folly.”

    It isn’t me (Kent) saying what the gospel is, it is the word of God found in the Bible, saying what the gospel is and I am passing on what I received. Mormons (and anyone else) read what the Bible says the gospel is directly below this paragraph.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    I (Kent) said “It isn’t about accepting that Joseph Smith was a prophet, it isn’t about the Book of Mormon being true, it isn’t about the Mormon Church being true, and it isn’t about being worthy to enter any temple and perform a bunch of religious rituals and obey a bunch of ordinances.”

    Shem also said, “Thus it is all about whether the LDS church is true, because if it is than nothing Kent said means anything, as he is contradicting truth.
    It is also about the Book of Mormon, because if it is true than rejecting it will lead to damnation.
    It is also about Joseph Smith, because if he was truly a prophet than rejecting him will also lead to damnation.”

    What Shem said fits in well that Mormons don’t believe it is about what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day but that it is all about the Mormon Church, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith being a prophet so it is about what we do but not about what Jesus did.

    Again, Spencer W Kimbell said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances and that is in direct contrast to what the Bible say the gospel is (see 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 above)

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    I would much rather trust in what Jesus did to save me rather than try to follow some map the Mormon Church claims Jesus gave us to follow.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  29. 29 Kent
    May 28, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Follow up to my last two posts:

    Jesus Christ is not a road map he is the way!

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    Note: SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE! is not part of Galatians 1:8-9. This is something I am ending all my posts here with and I forgot to press enter on my next to last post.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  30. 30 shematwater
    May 30, 2012 at 2:30 am

    Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 Paul says that this is what he taught first. He does not say this is all that the gospel includes, but that it is the first step, the first principle of the Gospel. We must learn of Christ before we learn anything else, which is perfectly in line with LDS doctrine.

    Of course Kent doesn’t understand LDS doctrine, and that is why he keeps trying to say that we somehow deny Christ. He tries to paint a picture that either you believe it is all Christ and that we contribute nothing; or that it is all us and Christ contributes nothing. In reading his words these are the only two choices one is given, and thus he tries to claim that he believes it is all Christ and we believe it is all us.
    Of course his denial of the third option is what always seems to tangle his words. It is not one or the other, but both. Everything rests in Christ, and without his contribution salvation is impossible for anyone. However, everything also rests on us, for without our contribution Christ will not extend his power to save us.

    JBR
    “yet how many times do you state that our motivation is to discredit your faith …. ok.”
    It is not me that stated your motivation. It was you that declared this. May 25, 2012 at 4:21 am post 41, in the thread titled Scriptures you posted the following.
    “Please understand that I do not attempt to discredit you personally but the theology of Mormonism.”
    It is also in this thread that you basically said that I am arrogant for saying you are wrong, but you aren’t arrogant for saying we are wrong. The reason is basically because you don’t believe you are wrong, so it is arrogances to say you are.

    “for who should know better than myself”
    You can claim any motivation you want, but your actions speak much loader than your words. As I said, if this is not your intent than you should cease this kind of activity, as it only portrays the intent that I have outlined.

  31. 31 JBR
    May 30, 2012 at 4:42 am

    Wow … impressive Shem.

    Sounds like double standards … or I bet the quote you found is probably not being accuratly understood in the proper context.

    I bet you’d find that since the topic probably was that the theology of Mormonism that insistes that scripture goes beyond the Bible that they “discrediting” wasn’t aimed at what your making it out to be, but rather to defend what the truth is as to what constitutes as scripture.

    I have no oppolgies to have zeal for the truth by discrediting false claims like Paul did.

  32. 32 JBR
    May 30, 2012 at 4:44 am

    instead of: that they “discrediting” wasn’t aimed at what your making it out to be

    should read: that the “discrediting” wasn’t aimed at what your making it out to be

  33. 33 shematwater
    May 30, 2012 at 5:41 am

    JBR

    Why don’t you go back and re-read that thread, and then post here with actual quotes to show how I took things out of context. After all, I was courteous enough to quote and reference.
    I do understand that it is easier to simply suggest that I am wrong rather than actually proving it.

    It doesn’t really matter what specific doctrine your are discussing. You did not state that you were seeking to discredit our understanding of what constitutes scripture. You stated that you were seeking to discredit our theology, and you made the state in the immediate context of what your intention was on this blog. The thread may have been about scripture, but the comment I quoted was about this blog.

  34. 34 Kent
    May 31, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Shem, Paul was not telling the Corinthians that the gospel is more than what he first delivered to them but that it is the first thing he delivered to them, the gospel. Nowhere does the Bible say the gospel is more than Christ dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    On the other hand, former Mormon president Spencer W Kimball said specfically that the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances.

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    Yes, the Mormon Church does give some lip service on Christ dying on the cross and rising again on the third day as the first priniciple but the focus is clearly on what we do and not on what He did otherwise people such as Mr. Kimball would not have said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances.

    What I have never understood about Mormonism is that although in practice they use the Bible as the word of God but that it is not the only word of God so its message isn’t complete. But officially the Mormon Church says “the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly.”

    So if the Bible is the actual word of God but it isn’t, according to the Mormon Church, the only word of God, then why doesn’t the Mormon Church officially say this instead of bringing into question that it isn’t translated correctly?

    Because by bringing into question the Bible’s accuracy the Mormon Church is, in effect, saying it can’t be trusted.

    On the other hand, do Mormons question the accuracy of the Book of Mormon or of the Book of Abraham from the Pearl of Great Price? Those books are the only non Biblical Mormon scriptures that have been translated and while I don’t believe they are the actual word of God I am not, at least here, bringing into question their accuracy as I am merely pointing out that it is a safe bet that Mormons don’t question their accuracy so they would view them and use them as the word of God.

    But why even use the Bible, at least anything besides the JST version, if it hasn’t been translated correctly? As you can’t trust a flawed document, right?

  35. 35 JBR
    May 31, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Shem,
    Your just going to have to figure out that people like Spencer isn’t the only one who can use the “not everything said is doctrine” excuse.

    Try holding your boys to the same standard first of the boulders they have before thinking you’ve got your gotcha with me….. or do you think the ungrateful wicked servant account Jesus revealed wasn’t meant for your ears?

  36. 36 Kent
    May 31, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Correction to my last post, I assume the Mormon Book of Moses would also be something that has been translated but still, Mormons would use this and other books and believe that they are translated correctly and, again, I am not, for now at least, making an issue of the fact I don’t think they are accurate just that Mormons think they are but that the Bible is not.

    Here is a prediction, the leaders of the Mormon Church will see that it makes no sense to even use as scripture a work, the Bible, that hasn’t been translated correctly and they will have a revelation that it in fact has been translated correctly but that it is incomplete and that additional truth is found in other Mormon scriptures that way their church’s official position will match the actual practice of the church.

    This begs the question, we are often told by Shem and others on this board that we don’t understand Mormon doctrine even when we quote what their leaders say but there seems to be a gap in what leaders and official positions the church takes to actual practice of the church.

    An example would be what I pointed out here, that Mormons use the Bible as incomplete with additional scripture needed when the official position is that it hasn’t been translated correctly which implies it can’t be trusted.

  37. May 31, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.” (LDS Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6)

    Not only are the Laminites cursed but so is every Mormon because they believe in the LDS Gospel above ( a false gospel)…

    Galatians 3:10 “All who RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

    Christians aren’t under this curse (just like Kent so wonderfully pointed out in post 26)…

    “Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.”

    2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ” All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

    Romans 4:5-7 ” However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.”

    While Mormons are reconciling themselves to God, Christians, through Christ, have already been reconciled to God. After all, David himself is with Heavenly Father as we speak because he trusted God who justifies the wicked. Amen!

  38. 38 shematwater
    May 31, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    ECHO

    Once again, the Law as spoken of by Paul is the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled and thus done away with. By the working of this law no man has, nor will they ever be saved.

    Also, we are not trying to reconcile ourselves to God. This would be impossible. We are allowing Christ to reconcile us to God by showing him that we truly believe him and love him.

    JBR

    What? It would be nice if you actually responded to what I said, but I can’t recall any comment on this thread that is even connected to what you say here.

    To Everyone Else

    If you care to read 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 again you will see what I am talking about.
    “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”
    Here is the end of the sentence. Paul has just stated that he has taught the Gospel, through which we are saved.

    “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    And that he was buried, and that he arose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
    Notice that Paul does not say that the gospel is Christ’s death, but that it was the first thing taught. As stated before he taught the gospel. How? By first teaching that Christ had died and had risen again. In the first two verses we are told what he taught, and in the next two we are shown how he taught.
    Thus we see that the atonement is Christ is not the whole of the gospel, but the first principle.

    Also note that the church will never change its statements regarding the translation of the Bible. New Revelations are frequently received, but they do not contradict those given in the past. They may, at times, recall a previous revelation, but this is not the same as contradicting them.

  39. May 31, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    This law:

    ” A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS” from the LDS quote

    equals this law:

    ” All who RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW are under a curse” From the Bible

    How do we know?

    By this we know…

    Romans 4:5-7 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness”

    How are Mormons reconciling themselves to God?

    Like this:

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.” (LDS Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6)

    How has God reconciled us to himself?

    Like this…

    ” However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness”

  40. 40 Kent
    May 31, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    Shem, it is either all about faith or it is all about works. The gospel of the Bible by faith, what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again from the grave on the third day or the Mormon gospel, which President Spencer W Kimball said is a set of laws and oridinances.

    The B

    Galatians 3:1-4

    1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

  41. 41 joshtried
    May 31, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    “All who RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW are under a curse,”

    All who observe the law not knowing that Christ is the FULFILLMENT of it are cursed. The motions of the law are vanity. The motivations to do that which is the Law is what was supposed to happen from the beginning. You were to sacrifice with the understanding and the thankfulness that Christ would one day shed his blood for you. You were to have a change of heart, not just kill a bird, or a fatted calf.
    When the rich man came to Christ and asked what he must do to be saved, how did Christ respond?
    Mark 10:
    19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
    21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    Here, Jesus is saying the law, the commandments are STILL IN EFFECT.

  42. June 2, 2012 at 5:10 am

    Josh said: “Here, Jesus is saying the law, the commandments are STILL IN EFFECT.”

    This is what Jesus was doing…

    Romans 3:20 “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we BECOME CONSCIENCE OF SIN.” (Caps for emphasis)

    That law (The law that makes us conscience of our sin) is the same law as this…

    Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

    The Rich man was cursed because he did not do **EVERYTHING** written in the law.

    The law demands perfection and nothing short of perfection and it still does today. Jesus fulfilled the law and imputed his sinless perfection to you. Without perfection, we go to Outer Darkness for eternity.

  43. 43 joshtried
    June 2, 2012 at 5:18 am

    Law demands perfection
    Jesus was perfection (though even he said that he wasnt good)
    We accept Jesus as perfection
    Which also means we accept the perfection demanded by the law
    Which means we accept and live “The Law”

  44. June 2, 2012 at 8:43 am

    Josh said: “Jesus was perfection (though even he said that he wasn’t good)”

    Jesus didn’t say he wasn’t good. He said “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone”. Jesus was God when he said that, he is God now and he has always been God. Therefore he has always been good. But the Mormon Jesus has not always been good, has he? The Mormon Jesus was once a sinner wasn’t he? The Jesus of the Bible was never, ever a sinner.

    Josh said: “Which also means we accept the perfection demanded by the law. Which means we accept and live “The Law”

    I haven’t met a perfect Mormon yet. I haven’t met a Mormon or anyone who has lived the law. And for good reason…

    1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    Ecc 7:20 “There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.”

    Nobody is living the law unless they are sinless. Sin is lawlessness…

    1 John 3:4 “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”

  45. 45 joshtried
    June 2, 2012 at 10:04 am

    “why do you call me good, there is none good but God alone”
    Would would Christ not accept this statement of being good??????
    BECAUSE HE ISNT GOD, HE IS JESUS.
    Here it is in black and white, in your own perfect Bible. Christ didnt just say “thanks for recognizing how awesome I am” he said “why do u call me good?????” Christ is not and will never be his own father. “let this cup pass from me, but not my will but thine be done” How does God have a separate will from Himself? He doesnt, thats how. Christ is as much God (the father) as my son Logan is to being me. He is not me and Christ is not God.

  46. 46 Kent
    June 2, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Joshtried said, “why do you call me good, there is none good but God alone”
    Would would Christ not accept this statement of being good??????
    BECAUSE HE ISNT GOD, HE IS JESUS.
    Here it is in black and white, in your own perfect Bible. Christ didnt just say “thanks for recognizing how awesome I am” he said “why do u call me good?????” Christ is not and will never be his own father. “let this cup pass from me, but not my will but thine be done” How does God have a separate will from Himself? He doesnt, thats how. Christ is as much God (the father) as my son Logan is to being me. He is not me and Christ is not God.”

    Jesus Himself in John 8 said He was God when He referred to Himself as I AM.

    John 8:58

    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.”

    How was He calling Himself God? Refer to Exodus 3 where God told Moses to tell the children of Israel I Am has sent me to you.

    Exodus 3:13-14

    13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
    14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM HAS SENT ME TO YOU.’”

    In John 20 Thomas called Jesus God and if Jesus wasn’t God, Jesus would have corrected Thomas for calling Him God but Jesus didn’t correct him.

    John 20:27-29

    27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
    28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”
    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    Was Jesus a liar when He called Himself God (I AM) and when He didn’t correct Thomas when Thomas called Him God? No, of course He wasn’t lying so Jesus is God, He was God even when He became the only perfect sinless man there ever has been when He walked this earth, He will always be God, and He has always been God.

    Jesus is the Word and it is clear that the Word was God so that Jesus was God so hence He still is God and He always will be God, as shown in John 1.

    John 1:1

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Joshtried, it doesn’t matter if you answer me or not as other Mormons, who are not contributing to the discussions, are reading what we are writing here and are questioning what their church has been teaching. My prayers and hopes are that they keep doing so and by doing so, they will find themselves out of the Mormon Church and be believers in the true Jesus of the Bible who is not merely our older brother who is also the brother of Satan whose salvation plan was accepted over His brother Satan’s salvation plan. Satan never has had a salvation plan as he is the father of all lies and his biggest lie I have seen yet is that Jesus isn’t
    God!

  47. 47 joshtried
    June 2, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Honestly Kent, I would love to correct a slew of things in you last response, but since you are not here for the purpose of learning, I will not.
    What I will correct is the difference of me saying Christ is not God the father to your misrepresentation making it seem as though I said Christ is not God. Some Christians accept the fact that their are separate Gods while others try and wrap all 3 known beings into 1 god. You all have the duty to represent Christianity as a whole in these discussions, and I am doing a better job of that than any of you, and I am playing for the opposing team. While a Lutheran pastor runs this blog, this is a Christian vs LDS blog, not a Lutheran vs LDS blog. If you cant even accept what other groups of Christians teach, perhaps your problem lies elsewhere.

  48. 48 Kent
    June 2, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Joshtried, correct a slew of things from my last post? I guess you will have to correct the Bible and Jesus Himself as it is Jesus, in the Bible in John 8, calling Himself I AM (God) and it is Jesus, in the Bible in John 20, not correcting Thomas when Thomas called Him God. It isn’t me (Kent) saying it.

    if Jesus wasn’t God, then He would have never let Thomas call Him God.

    Also, as noted before, God called Himself I AM in Exodus 3

    John 8:58

    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.”

    Exodus 3:13-14

    13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
    14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM HAS SENT ME TO YOU.’”

    John 20:27-29

    27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
    28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”
    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE

  49. 49 Kent
    June 2, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Add on to my last past, God is one God who is three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But I will have to let someone like Pastor Mark Cares explain this as he is better at explaining this than I am.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  50. June 2, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Josh, this is what we believe about God…

    There is ONE God. God has always existed.

    The Father is God
    The Son is God
    The Holy Spirit is God

    The Father is not the Son
    The Father is not the Holy Spirit
    The Son is not the Holy Spirit

    If that confuses you, then your getting it because the finite cannot comprehend the infinite. We “Bible alone” believers just take God at his word.

    You follow a Jesus who is not good (according to you) and who was once a sinner.
    We follow a Jesus who is good and who never, ever was a sinner.

    Jesus isn’t a sinner who shows you how to become righteous so that you can become a god. Jesus said: ” there is none good but God alone.” How can anyone who is not good become a god? That’s impossible. Satan is not good, what kind of god did he become? Is someone who is not good righteous? Impossible. Can someone who is not good become righteous? Impossible. As I stated earlier: “Nobody is living the law unless they are sinless. Sin is lawlessness… 1 John 3:4 “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”
    Can those who are lawless enter into God’s presence? Impossible. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Can those who are lawless enter into the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit’s presence? Impossible. And that rules out all 3 kingdoms of Mormonism because the Father is in the Celestial, The Son in the Terrestrial, The Holy Spirit in the Telestial. That leaves only outer darkness.

    Mormons spend their whole lives trying to make themselves worthy. When they are humble enough to recognize their failings, some of them fall into despair or at the very least, cannot find peace and joy. And THIS is the curse. “cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the law”

    Your Jesus, who is not good (according to you), leaves you with that message. And because of it, I agree with you that your Jesus is not good.

    My Jesus, who is good, rescued me from that curse. I always have peace and joy.

  51. 51 shematwater
    June 2, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    ECHO

    Again with the idiocy and false doctrine regarding our faith. If you don’t even know what we believe than please stop pretending to.

    Christ was never a sinner. He lived a perfect life, even before he came to this earth. That is why he was chosen to be a member in the Godhead, and why it was him, and only him, that could perform the atonement.

    Your constant lack of basic knowledge of the LDS faith is ridiculous considering that you are here to show how wrong we are.

    As to your doctrine, your right, it is confusing, and for that reason it is rejected by us. No, we do not believe that an infinite God can be fully comprehended by us, but we also don’t believe his very existence has to contradict everything we know and all abilities of reason that he gave to us. I don’t want an unknowable God for the simple fact that I like to know what and who I am worshiping.

    KENT

    Christ was not a liar. He is the the Great I Am, and he did not contradict Thomas because he is God, or is a member of the Godhead, and thus is rightly called by that title. However, he is not the Father, and thus when he says “why callest thou me good? There is none good but God.” We can say that he is not calling himself good, but is calling the Father good, which makes a whole lot more sense than what you or Echo are saying.

  52. June 2, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Shem said: “Christ was never a sinner”

    “LDS Apostle Orson Hyde, “God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and MORTAL like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is” (Journal of Discourses 1:123).”

    Your Jesus was Mortal.
    Mortal men die.
    The wages of sin is death

    If Jesus wasn’t a sinner, he had nothing to “overcome”

    LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, “The Father is a glorified, perfected resurrected, exalted man who worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg. 64)

    If Jesus wasn’t a sinner, he didn’t have to “work out his own salvation by obedience”

    Shem said: “Again with the idiocy and false doctrine regarding our faith. Your constant lack of basic knowledge of the LDS faith is ridiculous considering that you are here to show how wrong we are. ”

    LDS doctrine states that your words are not : “official church doctrine” . Let it be said then that everything you say is just your opinion of LDS Doctrine and is not necessarily correct. Your opinions could be false doctrine regarding your faith because of your own lack of knowledge.

  53. June 2, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Your Jesus was Mortal.
    Mortal men die.
    The wages of sin is death

    It’s sad that Mormons bow down to a God made to look like corruptible man. (Romans 1:23)

  54. 54 joshtried
    June 3, 2012 at 12:50 am

    So, Echo. Your Jesus is not mortal, yet he died on a cross? How exactly is that possible?

    And yes Kent, I could tear your argument apart, similar to how Luther attempted to tear Erasmus’s apart, but it would be lost on you. Let me know when you are willing to discuss things in an attempt to actually learn them and I will start answering your questions.

  55. June 3, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Jesus didn’t die because of his sin, he died because of your sin.

  56. 56 joshtried
    June 3, 2012 at 3:08 am

    Jesus’s spirit is immortal, just as ours can be. Even bad stuff can be immortal. I have not yet read anywhere in the Bible where it says satan will even die. He will be bound and loosed, but never die.

  57. June 3, 2012 at 4:11 am

    Josh said: “Jesus’s spirit is immortal”

    Jesus’ body is immortal. (Luke 24:39)

  58. 58 joshtried
    June 3, 2012 at 6:05 am

    His body was immortal post ressurection. Any sumation otherwise is folie. His body died. It was buried. It was mortal.

  59. June 4, 2012 at 5:48 am

    Josh said: “His body was immortal post ressurection”

    Everyone else’s body is still in the grave. Not Jesus.

  60. 60 joshtried
    June 4, 2012 at 6:25 am

    What does that have to do with anything? His body was not immortal prior to his death, or he would not have died.

  61. 61 Kent
    June 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    The Mormon Jesus isn’t immortal as only the Jesus of the Bible who has always been God, who never had a beginning, who never wasn’t God, even when He walked this earth to be the perfect sacrifice to take away all the sins of the world, and who always will be God, is immortal as it is He who rose again on the third day.

    The Mormon Jesus who is supposedly a created being, who is supposedly Satan’s brother whose salvation plan was accepted over Satan’s plan, who by the way, never had a salvation plan as He is a murderer and is the father of all lies, this Jesus doesn’t exist and cannot save anybody, ever.

    One of the Mormons, I believe it was Kate who came here for awhile, said that I know full well that they are talking about the same Jesus that we aretalking about but, no, I don’t believe this at all.

    Mormons, who is Jesus? Your salvation is depending on it and on what He alone did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  62. 62 joshtried
    June 4, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    alright kent, lets correct a few things.

    First: who Satan is…
    you say: He is a murderer and is the father of all lies,
    I say: He BEGAN as Lucifer (enlightened one if i am not mistaken) We all know he “fell” and that is why he is who he is now. He was NOT ALWAYS “a murderer and is the father of all lies.”
    I have asked before, and i will ask again now. What did he do that caused him to fall???

    Second, no Mormon has ever said Jesus was not immortal. I have made the argument that his body was not immortal, which is perfectly in line with available scripture.

    As to the rest, i leave you to your own devices. If you really want to know more, and i mean really know concerning our belief of the rest of what you have posted, you need only ask. If you do not care to know what we believe, but instead wish to continue pushing your view of what we believe, then we have nothing further to discuss.

  63. June 4, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Josh said: “What did he do that caused him to fall???”

    He wanted to be like God. He wanted autonomy. And that is the same thing he tempted Adam and Eve with when he said: “you can be like God knowing good and evil”

  64. 64 shematwater
    June 4, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    ECHO

    You really need to stop interpreting the words of our leaders according to your theology. I have seen this done over and over again, and it can only lead to false understanding, as proven so many times by you.

    From the Bible dictionary, printed with every copy of the Bible we use, under the heading of Christ:
    “Jesus, who is called Christ, is the firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. He is Jehovah, and was foreordained to his great calling in the Grand Councils before the world was. He was born of Mary at Bethlehem, LIVED A SINLESS LIFE, and wrought out a perfect atonement for all mankind by the shedding of his blood and his death on the cross.”

    Don’t try to tell me that we I say is merely my opinion. It is a clever way to try and ignore what I say, but even if it was true I would have more credibility than you ever would, as I happen to be a practicing member of the church. However, as the explanation printed by the leaders of our church regarding the life of Christ agrees completely with what I have stated we don’t really need to worry about the credibility of opinions.

    It is fact that Christ lived a perfectly sinless life, and it is fact that this is taught by the LDS. For you to claim otherwise, based on you interpreting the words of our leaders by your own theology, only shows that you do not know what you are talking about, and are thus blind and trying to lead the blind.

    Now, let us look at your quotes:
    “God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and MORTAL like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is” (Journal of Discourses 1:123).
    LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, “The Father is a glorified, perfected resurrected, exalted man who worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg. 64)

    You said, regarding the first, that “If Jesus wasn’t a sinner, he had nothing to “overcome” This is false, as he had to overcome the physical pain and agony of the atonement, as well as the emotion and spiritual pain of that event. He had to overcome the challenges of being constantly persecuted by the Jewish leaders. He had to overcome the temptations of Satan in the wilderness.
    Now, he overcame all these trials in a perfect and sinless manner, but to say he did not have trials to overcome is to ignore the Bible.

    In response to the second you wrote “If Jesus wasn’t a sinner, he didn’t have to “work out his own salvation by obedience” Again this is false. He told John the Baptist “Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.” Clearly he needed to be baptized to live a perfect and sinless life. He worked out his own salvation by obedience to all the laws, as he himself states. He did so perfectly and sinlessly, but he did so.

    Again, don’t overlay your theology onto the words of our leaders, as it always leads to a false understanding.

  65. 65 shematwater
    June 4, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    Also note that Christ is declared sinless in the proclamation issued by the First Presidency in 2000, title Jesus the Christ (can be found at LDS.org, under the gospel topic section.

    As to no one else ever rising from the grave, we are told that “the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” Matthew 27: 52-53.

    So Echo’s statement that “Everyone else’s body is still in the grave.” is in direct contradiction with the Bible.

  66. 66 Kent
    June 4, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Joshtried, I never said that Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is immortal but that the Bible shows that the Mormon Jesus is a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible so the Mormon Jesus doesn’t exist. Therefore the Mormon Jesus is not immortal and that Jesus can’t save anyone.

    Jesus said He was God by calling Himself I AM in John 8 in reference to God calling Himself I AM in Exodus 3.

    John 8:58

    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.”

    Exodus 3:13-14

    13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
    14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM HAS SENT ME TO YOU.’”

    That Jesus has always been God because, as shown in John 1. So Jesus existed as God, the second person in the GodHead, before anything that was ever made because all things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. So nothing existed before all things were created through Him. So He is the creator not part of the creation and He was never a part of the creation.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Also, Jesus is not just the creator of this world but of all worlds as shown in Hebrews 1.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

  67. June 5, 2012 at 3:47 am

    Shem said: ” As to no one else ever rising from the grave”

    For the record, this is NOT what I said.

  68. June 5, 2012 at 3:51 am

    Mormons believe Jesus was once just a man who progressed to become a God.

    Ecc 7:20 “There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.”

  69. 69 joshtried
    June 5, 2012 at 4:03 am

    Echo, you never said everyones body is still in the grave, except for jesus? You might wanna look about 10 posts up from this one and recheck what you posted.

  70. 70 joshtried
    June 5, 2012 at 4:11 am

    ecc 7:20…. Either you lack understand of that scripture, or you just said that Jesus did not attone for our sins, since he “couldnt live perfect” according to this scripture…

  71. June 5, 2012 at 5:57 am

    Josh said: “Echo, you never said everyones body is still in the grave, except for jesus? You might wanna look about 10 posts up from this one and recheck what you posted.”

    Yes, I did say that everyone’s body is still in the grave. I didn’t say: ” As to no one else EVER rising from the grave”. I do believe that our bodies will be reunited with our spirit at the resurrection.

    Josh said: “ecc 7:20…. Either you lack understand of that scripture, or you just said that Jesus did not attone for our sins, since he “couldnt live perfect” according to this scripture…”

    You believe that Jesus was once just a man who progressed to become a God. We believe Jesus has always been God, he didn’t progress. If Jesus was once only a man like you believe, then he was a sinner and could never atone for our sins. Our Jesus has never been just a man. He has always been God from eternity past to eternity future. He is sinless and has always been sinless. He atoned for our sins.

  72. 72 joshtried
    June 5, 2012 at 6:18 am

    Echo, I think you are trying to combine your doctrine with ours. To say “just a man” is to slight the entire process of creation. We believe that we were before, and that we continue to progress now. We also hold Jesus to be the only begotten son of God (though we do say others are siblings, they are not of the same stock). This is why people lile Shem continuously offer the explainations we do, and try to teach you that you really do not understand what we are teaching. You see one liners and use them as catch phrases, and try to understand our doctrine based on your presumption of singular, and most often taken out of context, scriptures.

  73. 73 Kent
    June 5, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Jesus did not progress to be God as He has always been God. Not only that, in a sense although he didn’t literally regress when He became a man as He was still God when He did so, in a sense He did so by humbling Himself to come down from Heaven to be the perfect sacrifice to take away all the sins of the world. In a way the opposite of progressing.

    The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 5:21, “for He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” It does not say that He was a man first, who was a sinner, who knew sin before but progressed to have no sin in Him. Because as Echo pointed out, if He had been a sinner first, then He would have known sin and He couldn’t have been the perfect sinless man, the blemish free sacrifice foretold in the old testament sacrifices of innocent animals, to take away all the sins of the world.

    It is the righteousness of God in Him, not in us progressing, that we put on so God, in His eyes, does not see our sins any longer and it is His righteousness, not ours that we progressed to, that let’s us enter into God’s presence.

    Mormons, you can know now, not later, that you can enter the mansion where God is if you believe soley in who Jesus is and has always been, nothing short of God Almighty, and what did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never do anything ever to save ourselves.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  74. June 5, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    I don’t mean to offend you Josh, however it has been my experience that whenever LDS authorities realize that something they said or believed paints them into a corner, they attempt to get out of it or try and cover it up and hide it.

    Watch this video made by a current practicing Mormon

  75. 75 Kent
    June 5, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    If anyone wonders why I always close my posts with saved=enternal life=everlasting life, John 3 shows just that, that the terms mean the same thing. So if we are saved, we don’t just get to live in the afterlife to maybe, sometime in the future if we are worthy enough by progressing, to be in the mansion where Heavenlly Father and Jesus Christ are, but we know for sure this very moment that we will be there.

    But saved=eternal life=everlasting life does not mean we can ever be gods ourselves though. But isn’t being in the presence of God Almighty for eternity enough anyway? Personally, I don’t want to be a god so I never strive and never will strive to become one as the one true God is enough for me.

    John 3:14-18

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. 17 FOR GOD DID NOT SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  76. 76 Kent
    June 5, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Directly below is what we must do to be saved:

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    Directly below is how we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Directly below is the work we must do to do the works of God:

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE

  77. 77 shematwater
    June 8, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    ECHO

    You nicely tried to twist my words in an attempt to avoid the issue. Maybe I worded it wrong, but you knew full well my meaning.

    You claimed that to date no one but Christ has risen from the grave, and yet in the Book of Matthew we are told that many of the saints rose from their grave after the resurrection and visited many people in the city. Thus you have personally contradicted the Bible, as you said this did not happen.
    Of course you prefer to dodge the issue, which is a common tactic of yours. If you can’t actually counter the argument, you simply do something to evade it.

    As to Christ, again you are interpreting our doctrine according to your beliefs, and ending with a twisted mess, just as Josh has pointed out. Go back to the Bible dictionary entry that I quoted. Christ is the first born in spirit, and only begotten in the flesh. This mean, quite literally, that the Father is the physical Father of the mortal Christ. Jesus was not just a man; he was literally born of divine parentage in this life, and as such he was half mortal and have celestial. From his mother he inherited the mortal aspects of temptation and death. From his Father he inherited power over both. He lived a perfect life because he literally a god, and he died because he was literally a mortal.
    Also, you really need to think about what the term progress means. To progress does not necessitate previous failure, only the continuation of success in higher and more complex things. A student progresses through his classes, even if he never once makes an error on any of his assignments. A person can progress through a maze, even if they never once take a wrong turn.
    Christ was never sinful, and in the pre-existence he progressed, or learned and applied himself to higher and more conplex things until he had reached the level that allowed him to be the second member of the Godhead. He never once sinned, but he still progressed.

  78. June 9, 2012 at 12:10 am

    Shem said: “You claimed that to date no one but Christ has risen from the grave”

    For the record, this is not what I said or claimed either.

  79. 79 joshtried
    June 9, 2012 at 12:18 am

    Echo, you said everyones body is still in the grave. How is this not what you claimed? can you clarify, for the record?

  80. 80 shematwater
    June 11, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    Echo Said “Shem said: “You claimed that to date no one but Christ has risen from the grave”
    For the record, this is not what I said or claimed either.”

    For the record, you can return to post 59, in which Echo states “Everyone else’s body is still in the grave. Not Jesus.”
    Thus Echo has declared that no one else’s body rose from their grave, because if they did their bodies would not still be in the grave.
    Thus Echo has contradicted the Bible, as I pointed out, and is now trying to deny that he has done so.

  81. June 12, 2012 at 3:55 am

    Josh said: “Echo, you said everyones body is still in the grave. How is this not what you claimed? can you clarify, for the record?”

    Sure Josh. I meant right now- today.

  82. 82 joshtried
    June 12, 2012 at 5:16 am

    So today, everyone that has ever been buried is in the grave?
    Was there some kind of post ressurection party where people got put back in the ground?

  83. 83 shematwater
    June 12, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    JOSH

    I think what Echo is trying to say is that his intention was only to allude to people who have died in this day and age (I would assume the last few hundred years). So when he says that “Everyone else’s body is still in the grave.” he didn’t really mean everyone. He only meant those who had died since the founding of the United States.


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