11
Jun
12

The True Gospel

Chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith is the first of three chapters encouraging LDS members in their missionary activities.  As is stated, this chapter “focuses on the reasons we share the gospel”.

Although these words are not directly used in this chapter, the reason for sharing the gospel is the belief that the LDS Church is the only true church.  For example, Jose L. Alonso, one of its General Authority, stated at last October’s General Conference, “I bear witness that President Thomas S. Monson is Their prophet and that this is the only true Church upon the face of the earth.”  Chapter 12 reflects that by saying that the only persons who possess divine authority are in the LDS Church.

The other reason why Mormonism teaches it is important to do mission work is because it feels it is the only one that has the true gospel.  For example, President Smith states, in reference to pastors: “These good men, not understanding the gospel and the necessity for the ordinances of the same, confine their teachings very largely to moral lessons and to reading the psalms to their congregations. Isolated passages of scripture are chosen as texts for addresses on virtue, honesty, etc., all of which are helpful and uplifting, but few sermons are preached explaining the requirements made of every soul before we can enter the kingdom of heaven. It is this information of which the world is most in need. Few ministers have a message for their congregations that inspires in them the belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the necessity of partaking of the ordinances of the gospel prescribed by him.”  I find it interesting that he sees most sermons largely as moral lessons and not as pointing to the wonderful things Jesus has done for us.

But what is most important to see is how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does.  The gospel, according to the Bible, is simply the good news that Jesus, as our substitute, lived a perfect life for us, died a sacrificial death for us, and solely on the basis of that, God sees us as worthy and perfect in his sight.  But when the LDS Church talks about the fulness of the Gospel it means much more.  “In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom.” (True to the Faith, p. 76)  As that quote shows, included in the LDS gospel are many things that humans are to do.  That is emphasized in chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith when he states:  “My understanding is that the most important mission that I have in this life is: first, to keep the commandments of God, as they have been taught to me; and next, to teach them to my Father’s children who do not understand them.”  Note how when he talks about his most important mission he mentions nothing about teaching what Jesus did for him.

Sometimes Mormons wonder why Christians react so adversely to the teachings of Mormonism. This is one example.  What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel I see as a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel.  The true gospel is from first to last about what Jesus has done for us.  Any mention of what I have to do in order to be accepted by God is not gospel, good news.  Instead of relieving me, such things burden me.  Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy.  But most importantly of all, they rob Jesus of the glory of doing everything for me.  “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” (Ephesians 1:6)  Being accepted by God through grace – that is the true gospel.  And praising God for it is the most important mission of all!

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205 Responses to “The True Gospel”


  1. 1 Kent
    June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Mark has hit the nail on the head, the focus is either on everything we do as past Mormon leader Spencer Kimball said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances, the Mormon gospel, or it is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save themselves, the true gospel of the Bible.

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    I know the Mormons who post here have said that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Paul was only teaching the first principles of the gospel here but that is a stretch as Paul did not say there is more to the gospel only that it is what he first taught because Paul did, in his missions, teach other things besides the gospel.

  2. 2 JBR
    June 11, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Yes… What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel is a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel.

    There is no greater abomination (spiritually speaking) when the word “gospel” is attatched to obedience to the law.

    We pray that those Mormons who realize the falsehood of this “gospel” and are looking for the truth find the message that is revealed in the Bible which can free them of the slavery that Mormonism puts them under.

    We also pray that may come to hear this as the goal to reach a million Mormons continue and hear the sweet message of what Jesus revealed in the Bible so as some might turn and be saved.

  3. 3 joshtried
    June 12, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Lets play spin that religion:

    Lutheran’s: Dont worry about life in the slightest. Every decision in your life that should mean something is really pointless. Sure, you get to choose what you are going to eat today, and maybe choose your tie, but you dont get to choose anything meaningful in your life. Heck, you shouldnt have even chose a wife/husband. But thats okay… Well, it is okay if your one of the lucky ones that God plucks out of everything that is truly unworthy. But hey, if your unlucky, dont worry about it. Its all part of God’s plan, thanks for making me feel better about myself.

    Mormon’s: Jesus having a plan for you in this life is crazy. Giving meaning to anything in this life is crazy. Marriage should mean nothing, and you guys are crazy and giving it eternal principles. You want to have Christ as a friend? well, good luck there. God only chooses people that decide to reject your “religion.” Thinking that God would actually talk to people today, the audacity!! If he was going to talk to anyone, it would certainly be me. I mean come on… I’m not a Mormon! I win times like a thousand. You guys are so rigid. You demand certain things be met before you get baptized. Shoot, even the people performing a baptism. Dont you guys know that anyone can do that? I mean really.. Faking people out with your “holy” lifestyles and “wholesome” family engagements. Who in the world would ever say that stuff was necessary? Certainly not Jesus. Believing you should actually try and follow what God said. You guys are stupid. Dont you know God was making fun of you? Surely you know that you cant be perfect in this life. I know I cant.

  4. 4 shematwater
    June 12, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Josh

    I love it. Says everything you perfectly.

  5. 5 JBR
    June 13, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Josh,
    Is remarks like that happens when you desperatly try to justify how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does? I have re-read it many times and still come away with how disjointed it was vs the OP.

    Maybe you aught to listen to your wife and stop coming to this blog for awhile at least.

    ——————-

    Shem responds, …..”I love it. Says everything you perfectly.”

    If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly” —- but coming from you I understand that you enjoy the notion that God has a moving target of perfection that is totally subjective upon each individual and so it carries over.

    But hey … you did all you could do.
    I guess we should be like God and be happy with that and wait for somebody else to do the rest.

  6. 6 shematwater
    June 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    JBR

    I think we should try to understand things better, which you seem to refuse to do, as evidenced by your continual lack of understand, and refusal to accept correction.
    Again you give a false understanding of our doctrine, and no matter what we say you will never admit that it is false.

    I notice that you find the need to latch unto typing errors rather than anything with any real substance to make your arguments. The personal attacks seem to be very common with you.

    As to definitions, the Bible does not hold to the difinition given by Mark, unless you approach the Bible by saying, “This is the definition, so let us find it.”

    Now, if you want to take things literally, the word Gospel means good news. As such it was originally used in the bible in reference to the sacrifice of Christ, the good news of his redeeming power. However, as all news has its details, the term soon came to encompass all things that are related to this one event, or that come out of it. This is why Paul states that the atonement was the first thing he taught, but does not say it was the only thing he taught (which would have been an outright lie anyway).
    So, by the understanding of the LDS and the support of the Bible, the Gospel is the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all things that were made possible by that sacrifice. To us this includes repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation. To you it includes nothing beyond that sacrifice.

    As to Josh’s comment, he hit it right on the head as to your attitude in regards to yourselves and us. You may not like it, and I thought it a little out of character for him, but that is exactly how you act.

  7. 7 JBR
    June 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Shem,
    I know that your only way to avoid the falsehood of Mormonism when it’s being applied to it’s practical conclusion (in such a way that doesn’t allow for rabbit hole besides the point ya da ya da…) is to cry personal attacks. For the novice or timid that attempts to converse with Mormons such as yourself, such a ploy could work.

    Mark is indeed correct for there is no good news in a gospel definition like what you described ” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”

    Why we don’t listen … very simply:

    “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Ephesians 5:11 KJV

    or

    ” Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” NIV

    .. I suppose exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness one would cry personal attacks.

  8. 8 shematwater
    June 13, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    JBR

    I point out your tactic of personal attacks to let people know what caliber of person is attempting to lead them to Christ. It has nothing to do with my ability to reason and discuss.

    You said “If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly”
    This is a personal attack made against a typing error, a thing of insignificance. You felt it necessary to make a comment not on what I said, but on the mistake I made in typing it out. That is a personal attack, and an attempt to discredit me based on a small error.

    I don’t have to avoid any falseness, as the LDS has more truth then you could possibly comprehend. When being applied to its practical conclusion it is the most glorious conception of God and man that could have been devised, and is the only one that I have ever seen that does not contradict itself.
    The problem is that you don’t have any clue as to what is really taught, but prefer your twisted version, which is false and thus will always fail; much like your own religion.

    Honestly, it is you people who avoid the issue, especially when we are told that logic simply just doesn’t apply, so any logical discussion will be ignored. There is more evasion and double talk coming from you than there ever is coming from us.

    As to the Gospel, I find nothing good about what you claim the gospel to be. There is nothing good in not having free will. There is nothing good in not being part of your own salvation.
    There is peace in knowing that what you do matters. There is joy in knowing that Christ is always there to help you do what is needed. There is great news is knowing that through him all things are possible, even the living of a righteous life to qualify for salvation. There is no better news than to know that I have a choice, that God cares about me enough to show me what the right choice is, but still gives me the freedom choose on my own.

    That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.

  9. 9 JBR
    June 13, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    Still haven’t caught on Shem ….. your typo is an earthly example of what happens to those who attempt Mormonism’s gospel plan (” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”) according to what God revealed:

    James 2:10
    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

    Galatians 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I am showed how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

  10. 10 JBR
    June 13, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    should say:
    I am showing how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

  11. 11 Kent
    June 14, 2012 at 2:56 am

    Yes, you can choose to reject the true gospel of the Bible in favor of a set of laws and ordinances.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    OR

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    And you can choose to reject the true grace of Jesus Christ by trying to make it after all we can do instead of being a free gift that He gave to us that we can do nothing to earn. Our works count for nothing as it is only Jesus’ work on the cross and His rising again on the third day that saves us.

    2 Nephi 2:23

    23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    OR

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  12. 12 Kent
    June 14, 2012 at 3:10 am

    I know the Mormon regulars who post here will likely say that what Spencer W Kimball said is not their doctrine but if that is the case, then why did he say that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a set of laws and ordinances?

    Yes, it seems there is some lip service to Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross but the focus is clear that it is about what men do and not about what Jesus Christ did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

  13. 13 shematwater
    June 14, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    JBR

    Are you serious? Really? A typing error proves that what we teach is false? How arrogant can you get?

    Isaiah 29: 20-21
    “For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: THAT MAKE A MAN AN OFFENDER FOR A WORD, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.”

    It is actually kind of funny. You can’t argue against anything I say so you have to claim that how I say it proves me wrong.

  14. 14 JBR
    June 14, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Shem,
    Actually your reply shows how little you take God seriously.
    You’re actually are the arrogant in view of God demand of “be perfect even as I am”

    Yes shem …. Mormonism’s plan makes you guilty of every command. James 2:10

    And unless you repent and come to the gospel plan as revealed in the Bible, you will be shown as a liar by God for not taking him seriously. 1 John 5:10

  15. 15 JBR
    June 14, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Should read:
    You’re actually the arrogant in view of God’s demand of “be ye therefore perfect even as I am perfect”

  16. June 15, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Mark said: “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    I am so thankful that our confidence doesn’t rest on our attempts to make ourselves worthy. Our confidence rests in knowing that God loves the unworthy. He’s an amazing God. A God that I truly desire to obey because of the confidence he has given me.

  17. 17 joshtried
    June 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    Everybody feels this way at some point. And then we study scripture. If that still “makes you wonder” then perhaps you should re-evaluate your personal dealings with God. I no longer have any “wonder” about what i need to do. I havent had any for a very long time. There are many LDS that will give you this same response (though most will likely word it differently). There are many Christians that wonder if they are truly saved. There are atheists and satanists, and Jedis, all wondering the same thing (yes, jedi is an officially recognized religion in the US). Wonder does not mean false. How many astronomers wondered whether the earth revolved around the sun?

  18. 18 Kent
    June 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    It doesn’t say anything about having to be a member of the Mormon Church abut having to be worthy by paying tithes to the Mormon Church, about not having a cup of coffee, about not having a glass of wine, etc, and it doesn’t say anything about having to peform a bunch of rituals and follow a bunch of laws and ordinances to have eternal life. It says, again, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE! I going to add this to the end of my posts from now on.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  19. 19 Kent
    June 15, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Shem said, “That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.”

    We also believe that we matter as individuals and what we do is important in fact Jesus Christ believes we matter as individuals as He died for each and every one of of us and it is His blood that was shed and His rising again on the third day, and nothing else, that gives us eternal life.

    But we also believe that anything we do has nothing to do wit our salvation, that grace doesn’t come after all we can do but it is a free gift that was given freely by our savior Jesus Christ.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  20. 20 choosethechrist
    June 15, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Bottom line: Any Mormon who is not living 100% free from sin (and that includes the sin in your heart, not just the outward sin you have committed) is in BIG trouble because your “Jesus” can not save you until you are living 100% “right”. That is NOT good news and that is NOT the true gospel. The true gospel is good news: you are forgiven, perfect, holy, and righteous ONLY after you have put your faith in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins because it is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ on the cross that makes you worthy enough to enter the presence of a holy God. PERIOD!

  21. 21 Kent
    June 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple but you still are not there and you can never have eternal life unless you first enter the temple, perform all its rituals and obey all of the laws and ordinances but you still don’t know that you have eternal life.

    While with the blood of Jesus we can enter the Holiest place and we have eternal life by the blood of Jesus. So the contrast is between what we do (the Mormon way) and what Jesus did to save us and give us eternal life by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE!

    “TO ENTER THE TEMPLE YOU MUST BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WHO KEEPS BAPTISMAL AND OTHER COVENANTS.

    You need to attend church.

    You need to have a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

    You need to have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer.

    You need to have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel (Christs original message and authority).

    You need to believe and support the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who has the authority (given to him by God) to be God’s representative to the world. You need to support the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. You need to sustain the other authorities the Church as well.

    You need to live a chaste life.

    You need to treat your family right and support them.

    YOU NEED TO SUPPORT THE CHURCH AND ITS TEACHINGS.

    YOU NEED TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

    You have to be honest in your dealings with your fellowmen.

    YOU NEED TO PAY A FULL TITHE.

    YOU CAN’T DRINK ALCOHOL, USE TOBACCO, OR ABUSE DRUGS”

    OR

    Hebrews 10:19

    19 THEREFORE, BRETHREN, HAVING BOLDNESS TO ENTER THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  22. 22 joshtried
    June 18, 2012 at 4:06 am

    You know kent, im sure you would like this to go unchecked, but here are a couple of questions for you anyway.
    so you dont count any of these requirements as upholding what Christ would have a person do? You think Its okay to treat your family horrible and claim that you have accepted Christ in your heart? You think its okay to cheat God of what is rightfully his? You think it is okay to just utterly trash the body that God has given you? You think it is okay to lead a dishonest life intentionally and claim to be right with Christ? You think Jesus Christ supports what you believe?

    If you honestly believe this, there is something seriously wrong with you.

    Now, I could be wrong here, but even Christ built a temple… What your saying is that even though Christ was alive and telling people to believe in him and be saved, is that the temple was completely unnecessary. Christ didnt remove temples from the face of the earth, he did try and get them straightened out. Why in the world would he do this Kent? Temples are so unnecessary right? Then WHY? Is this another one of yalls example of something that wasnt to be done supporting something that would happen (baptisms for dead vs resurrection)?? Im pretty sure temples were meant to be used, even AFTER CHRIST came to earth. I want you to answer what purpose they had continuing forward from Christ.

    Saved = listening to what Christ actually said and had people do.

  23. 23 joshtried
    June 18, 2012 at 4:19 am

    Choose, you must have missed where i explained this before. I will copy and paste exactly what i wrote before, as it perfectly explains how this works. It is in the “curse of dark skin” thread

    Law demands perfection
    Jesus was perfection
    We accept Jesus as perfection
    Which also means we accept the perfection demanded by the law
    Which means we accept and live “The Law”
    100% (this last line just added)

  24. 24 Kent
    June 18, 2012 at 5:50 am

    Joshtried said, “You know kent, im sure you would like this to go unchecked, but here are a couple of questions for you anyway.
    so you dont count any of these requirements as upholding what Christ would have a person do? You think Its okay to treat your family horrible and claim that you have accepted Christ in your heart? You think its okay to cheat God of what is rightfully his? You think it is okay to just utterly trash the body that God has given you? You think it is okay to lead a dishonest life intentionally and claim to be right with Christ? You think Jesus Christ supports what you believe?”

    Yes, Jesus wants us to live moral lives but living moral lives doesn’t save us, it doesn’t give us eternal life only Jesus’ Blood saves us and gives us eternal life. Likewise no temple, no rituals, no laws and ordinances can give us eternal life, again, nothing but the blood of Jesus!

    So, yes, the temple is not needed in this day and age.

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  25. 25 choosethechrist
    June 18, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    The True Gospel says that no man can keep the law 100% which is why we must depend on the shed blood of Christ to save us and give us eternal life. We first have to believe in the message of the Biblical Gospel on how eternal life is given before we can begin to do what Christ has asked us to do. Saved by the Blood of Christ 1st and obedience/submission to the Lord 2nd.

    Romans 3:19-20
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Mormons, there is your warning. By believing the Articles of Faith you have placed yourselves under the law. You must be obedient (that means compliant with and not just giving it your best effort or good intentions) to the laws and ordinaces of your LDS gospel. This is an impossible task and God knows it for He has already said that your deeds of the law will not justify you in His sight. Your laws and ordinances convict you when you do not DO everything that you should, sin begins in the heart and includes those sins that are thought about and not outwardly committed.

    LDS leaders clearly understand that entrance into the celestial kingdom can only be obtained by keeping celestial law which has been described as COMPLETE obedience to all of God’s laws, but how many Mormon’s are really doing this? Joseph Fielding Smith said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Apostle Francis M. Lyman said, “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

  26. 26 shematwater
    June 18, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Let me sumerise the LDS doctrine and what is actually taught, since so many ignorant fools are making such a mess of things.

    Here are a few thing that everyone needs to understand.
    First “Jesus wants us to live moral lives but living moral lives doesn’t save us, it doesn’t give us eternal life only Jesus’ Blood saves us and gives us eternal life. Likewise no temple, no rituals, no laws and ordinances can give us eternal life, again, nothing but the blood of Jesus!”

    Second, “The True Gospel says that no man can keep the law 100% which is why we must depend on the shed blood of Christ to save us and give us eternal life. We first have to believe in the message of the Gospel on how eternal life is given” and then we must act accordingly.

    Third, God requires nothing beyond a Broken Heart, a Contrite Spirit, and a willing mind. A heart that is broken with the pain we cause God through our sin. A spirit that in contrite in repentance and desire to make ourselves right with God. A mind that is willing to submit in all things that the Father sees fit to inflict upon us.

    If we the heart, spirit, and mind that is here described, and we accept as truth the first two points, then we will have eternal life. That is the truth, and that is the doctrine of the LDS, and anyone who says otherwise is bearing a false witness.

    KENT

    Question: If you believe Christ, and he came down and personally told you to join the LDS church, would you?

  27. June 19, 2012 at 1:24 am

    Shem said: “First “Jesus wants us to live moral lives but living moral lives doesn’t save us, it doesn’t give us eternal life only Jesus’ Blood saves us and gives us eternal life. Likewise no temple, no rituals, no laws and ordinances can give us eternal life, again, nothing but the blood of Jesus!””

    Are you saved in your sins?

    Shem said: “Second, “The True Gospel says that no man can keep the law 100% which is why we must depend on the shed blood of Christ to save us and give us eternal life. We first have to believe in the message of the Gospel on how eternal life is given” and then we must act accordingly.”

    How is eternal life given?

    Shem said: “Third, God requires nothing beyond a Broken Heart, a Contrite Spirit, and a willing mind. A heart that is broken with the pain we cause God through our sin. A spirit that in contrite in repentance and desire to make ourselves right with God. A mind that is willing to submit in all things that the Father sees fit to inflict upon us.”

    If this is true, why do you respond to most posts with remarks such as this…”Let me sumerise the LDS doctrine and what is actually taught, since so many ignorant fools are making such a mess of things.” ?

  28. 28 choosethechrist
    June 19, 2012 at 3:33 am

    Alma 11:37 states men can not be saved in their sins.

    Moroni 10:32 states that men must deny themselves of ALL ungodliness to receive God’s grace.

    Wilford Woodruff taught that repentance is the forsaking of sin. ~Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72

    3rd Article of Faith: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

    “Keep my commandments continually” or “where I am you cannot come”. WOW!

    I think the LDS people don’t want to believe their own doctrine and why would they? It is NOT good news!

    The good news is that because of the blood of Jesus all who believe may have eternal life and dwell in the house of the Lord forever!

  29. June 19, 2012 at 6:23 am

    Shem hasn’t denied himself of all ungodliness and kept ALL the commandments continually which is why he isn’t a good spokesperson for the LDS Church. As it stands, “where I am you cannot come” completely applies to Shem.

    Is it wise to listen to the words of someone to whom God has said: “where I am you cannot come”?

  30. June 19, 2012 at 6:26 am

    The LDS Gospel is not good news!

    The Gospel in the Bible is ALL GOOD NEWS.

  31. 31 choosethechrist
    June 19, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    “Mormonism binds its own people with a gospel that is so unobtainable that no one could accomplish it. As true Christian believers we recognize our utter and total failure to live the whole law or to reach a point where we can stop sinning in this life. While Christians strive for righteousness and holiness, we have to rely and trust on God’s mercy at Jesus’ expense of His life to give us the righteousness of Christ in order to dwell with our Heavenly Father forever and forever. To the Truth seeking Mormon this is the good news that Jesus died for you and that by one offering he has perfected you for all time. That His grace is sufficient for you even in your weakness and transgressions, for righteousness (right standing with God) could not come by keeping God’s commandments, if so Jesus died in vain.” From: Are You Living the Celestial Law @ http://www.letusreason.org/LDS20.htm

  32. 32 JBR
    June 19, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Shem says… “nothing but the blood of Jesus!”

    yet…

    Kimball says…
    “[forgiveness] depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes”

    “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation”

    —————————————–
    “Man cannot be redeemed from this spiritual death by an act of Christ alone..”
    The Restored Church, Pgs. 562,563

    ————————————————
    “Jesus sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins”
    Journal of Discourses …1856

    ———————————————————
    “If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.
    There is no salvation outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”
    Mormon Doctrine, p. 670

    ////////////////// conclusion: both aren’t correct /////////////////////

    Either
    1) Kimball (who never leads astryay), the “restored church”, Journal of Discourses …1856, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670
    or
    2) Shem

  33. 33 Kent
    June 19, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Mormons, I have some good news and I have some bad news to tell you.

    First the bad news, you never ever get to be a god. Disappointed?

    Now the Good News, if you believe and completely trust in who Jesus Christ is and what only what He could do by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, you have eternal life in the mansion where God is forever, and ever, and ever!

    How can anyone possibly be disappointed with being eternally in presence of our God who loves us?

    So the Christian definition is different than the Mormon definition in that eternal life doesn’t mean exaltation as gods ourselves.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  34. June 19, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Shem, as your friends, what we are trying to do is get you to see the impossibility of the Mormon Gospel as it applies to you personally. We aren’t interested in harming you in any way. Everything we say, we say to bring only good to you. We hope that one day you will come to see how this is true.

  35. 35 shematwater
    June 19, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    ECHO

    What you are trying to get me to see is a lie, and thus it is harmful. The sad fact is that you don’t see this, but think that it is not.

    The true Gospel is not impossible. It is difficult, but it is still possible. The problem is that you don’t understand what the Gospel really is, and but see only what you want to see and color everything to fit what you want to believe concerning it. You will never understand because you refuse to listen.

    Just so everyone knows, according to LDS doctrine, and thus according to the true gospel of Christ, I, right now, am assured a place in the Celestial Kingdom with my Father for the rest of eternity. There was nothing impossible about this.

    KENT

    Can you believe in Christ and not obey Him?
    and what of my previous question? Feel like answering it?

    JBR

    Both are correct, it is just that you have no understanding of President Kimball’s words, but prefer to twist them into what you can use to disbelieve the truth.

    The simple fact is this. Without the blood of Christ nothing would ever gain us eternal life. Without faith on his name and in his atonement no action on our part will ever gain us eternal life. A man may have every required ordinance performed for him, but without faith those ordinances are not pleasing to God and will not be sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus will not be of any effect, causing that person to miss out on salvation.
    It is only an idiot who would claim that it is through our actions, and our actions alone that salvation comes. It is only an idiot that would deny the universal need for the atoning blood of Christ. And only an idiot would claim that any leader of the LDS church has ever taught otherwise. Either that or he is a deceiving liar whose only thought is to destroy the truth of God, in which case he will be damned forever.

    What the quotes say is not that the blood of Christ is not was saves, but that there must be something there for the blood to work on.
    It is not simply through faith that we are saved by his blood; it is through faith that has been tested and proven by our works and our willingness to submit to Christ.
    It is not through the atonement alone that we are saved from spiritual death, but through our taking hold of the atonement, in humility and faith, and choosing to let it opperate in our lives through our works.
    It is not simply through abstract faith in an unknowable God that we are saved; but through a clear understanding of truth and the character of God, and thus a full understanding of the need and effects of the atonement that salvation is made possible.
    But you will note that the unlying theme of all these truth taught by Kimball is the atonement. All of them depend on the atonement, without which no salvation is ever possible.

  36. June 19, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Shem said: “The true Gospel is not impossible. It is difficult, but it is still possible. The problem is that you don’t understand what the Gospel really is, and but see only what you want to see and color everything to fit what you want to believe concerning it. You will never understand because you refuse to listen.”

    Actually I am listening . It’s just that when I listen to you, I feel as though you aren’t listening to what we are saying to you.

  37. 37 RLO
    June 19, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Shem said: “Let me sumerise the LDS doctrine and what is actually taught, since so many ignorant fools are making such a mess of things.”

    Shem, do you really believe that referring to others as “ignorant fools” actually fosters an encouraging environment for dialog?

    Do you think it reflects well on The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints when you, as one of its temple- worthy members in good standing, speak to others in this manner?

    For so long, I have hoped that with some encouragements from me, as well as the encouragements of a few others, you would eventually cool your head, warm your heart, check your tongue, and begin speaking and treating others with a greater sense of dignity and respect. But alas, it seems these things are just simply not consistent with your nature. Even were your arguments to carry any degree of credibility – a point by which no means do I concede – but were they to carry any credibility, you yourself destroy any hope that someone could possibly give your views any consideration because of the way you express yourself. It would be better if your viewpoints were accepted or rejected based on their own merits or lack thereof, rather than being dismissed out of hand due to the caustic personality of their author.

    Furthermore, ” . . . sumerise . . . ” ? Seriously ??

    “S-u-m-m-a-r-i-z-e” !!

    Until you learn to spell correctly, I really don’t think you should be referring to others as “ignorant fools.”

  38. 38 joshtried
    June 19, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Ignorance is something that every single one of us is, in some way or another. Many people here ARE ignorant of what LDS actually teach. Trying to say that we teach we can get to heaven without Christ is ignorance, or willful lying. We do not, cannot, and will not ever teach that. We may be thankful that JS was a prophet, but we dont pray in any way shape or form to him or through him. Every prayer an LDS person will give is in the name of Jesus Christ. Every talk we give is given in the same way. That would be one pretty stupid talk: “You can get to heaven without Jesus. I leave this with you in Jesus name, Amen.”
    I have said this before, and i dont even begin to delude myself that this will be the last… Unless you are willing to take into account everything in our SCRIPTURE when talking, you are going to be wrong. The same goes for someone’s talk. If you do not grasp the entire theme of the message, then you are going to be wrong. Most of the people here try and separate Jesus from our actions because we are LDS, and then say we are wrong. Everything we do, we do in Jesus name. EVERYTHING. You must have that BASIC knowledge to begin to understand anything else. Trying to say we put anything else BEFORE Christ is simply wrong.
    Has Christ done everything for us to have eternal life? Yes.
    BUT, we must partake of it to have eternal life.
    When you are growing up, your mother (or father) cooks every meal for you, and sits you down and puts food in front of you. If you dont eat it, you will die.
    When going to school, you have teachers and school books and numerous other resources. Not a single one of these things can make you learn. If you dont choose to learn the stuff, you will not graduate.
    You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
    How many more of these analogies do you want?

    And welcome back RLO. Shem has previously admitted to not being the greatest speller in the world. Perhaps he could be cut a bit of slack on this.

  39. 39 joshtried
    June 19, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    “Ignorant is somethings every one of us is….”

  40. June 19, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Josh said: “Trying to say that we teach we can get to heaven without Christ is ignorance, or willful lying.”

    THe problem is Josh, this isn’t what we are teaching about the LDS Church. If only a Mormon would stop and listen before putting words in our mouth that we didn’t say or mean.

  41. 41 joshtried
    June 19, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    That is the context of what JBR is stating. So, yes, this is what is being taught, in this very thread.

  42. 42 joshtried
    June 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    That is also what Choose is alluding to when he tries to state we live by the law. He is stating we live by it BY OURSELVES, which eliminates Christ from our actions. I have shown how this is not what we believe, and i have been utterly rejected for my claim.

  43. June 19, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Josh,

    I believe we are misunderstood by both you and Shem. I don’t think there is a Christian on the blog that disagrees with what you have said about your beliefs. But just in case we don’t, would you like to explain it again from beginning to end going into great detail just to be sure? Feel free to do that. It can’t hurt. I think it is a good idea anyways.

    I think what is happening here is that we do (for the most part) understand LDS beliefs and we also agree with you that those are LDS beliefs. However, we attempt to take that one step further than the LDS church does or would.

    For example, I am pretty sure JBR doesn’t disagree with what you have been posting about LDS beliefs either. However, when Shem says something like: “Nothing but the blood of Jesus”, that statement would mean something entirely different to Mormons than it does to us Christians. Christians are aware of both the Mormon and Christian meaning behind those words, or at the very least, Christians know there is a difference in meaning. You and Shem aren’t aware of both meanings. So we Christians are trying to take that statement one step further by showing you that “nothing but the blood of Jesus” does not mean the same thing to you as it does to us. Am I making any sense? It is difficult to explain.

    JBR’s post shows very well the difference between what a Mormon means when they say “nothing but the blood of Jesus” and what a Christian means when they say: “nothing but the blood of Jesus”. Every LDS quote that JBR gave, shows the contrast between the Christian viewpoint and the Mormon viewpoint.

    For us Christians, “nothing but the blood of Jesus” means this. ..(now remember, this is the Christian perspective, NOT the Mormon perspective).

    “Forgiveness that depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes” isn’t dependent on the blood of Jesus. Because of the blood of Jesus, our forgiveness doesn’t hinge on our humility, our sincerity, our works, our attitudes.

    “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation” We believe that whenever anything more than Christ alone is needed for salvation, that no longer is: “nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    ““Man cannot be redeemed from this spiritual death by an act of Christ alone..” That is no longer: “nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    ““Jesus sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins” That is no longer: “nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    “DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” This is no longer “nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    So what we are doing is using LDS quotes to show you *OUR* beliefs, not Mormon beliefs. We want to show you the contrast between Mormon beliefs and Christian beliefs.

    Besides, we think you and Shem do a wonderful job of sharing your beliefs all on your own. We have no desire to hide your beliefs from anyone nor to twist them.

  44. 44 Kent
    June 19, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    We are often told that we don’t understand and misrepresent what the Mormon Church teaches but how often, when we say we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation and that it is only by what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day that gives us eternal life will a Mormon respond by saying that we believe that we can sin all we want but it doesn’t matter because we are saved?

    I have had that response from Mormons on several occasions that, they think, I believe that because I believe in Jesus that I think I can do anything I want with no consequences. That is flat out not true as I have never, ever said that.

    I believe that we are changed by the blood of Jesus that we are born again so we are new creations in Christ and that gives us the heart to live moral lives but, still, anything we do has nothing to do with our salvation because our righteouness is as of filthy rags in comparison to the standard of Jesus’ righteousness, the standard we have to meet if it is at all according to what we do.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  45. 45 choosethechrist
    June 19, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Josh said, “That is also what Choose is alluding to when he tries to state we live by the law. He is stating we live by it BY OURSELVES, which eliminates Christ from our actions. I have shown how this is not what we believe, and i have been utterly rejected for my claim.”

    By posting your 3rd article of faith, 3rd Article of Faith: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, I did not eliminate Christ from the LDS equation.

    By posting from your D&C, DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”, I am trying to show you your own doctrine which states that you must live by the law (Keep my commandments continually).

    I understand LDS teachings perfectly well. It is my understanding that it is taught that Jesus gives you the power to keep the commandents. If you sin and don’t keep the commandments, you get less power from Christ to keep the commandments. If you keep the commandments, you get more power from Christ to keep the commandments. Why would Christ withhold his power to help you keep the commandments when you need his help the most? What does that say about you if you are not keeping the commandments continually right now? Does it say that you are in your sins? Doesn’t Alma state that you cannot be saved in your sins? What that says to me, is that you will not receive forgiveness of your sins and the benefit of the atonement until you are keeping the commandments continually. So, what exactly has Jesus done for you right now today if you are not keeping the commandments 100% right now today? Maybe someday Jesus will come through for you, if you can keep the commandments.

    What I am alluding to is the danger of what happens when we choose to place ourselves under the law:

    Where I am you cannot come!

  46. 46 choosethechrist
    June 19, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    The LDS seem to like James:

    James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    Mormons, please consider the seriousness of placing yourselves under the law:

    mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel

    If you have not kept the whole law or cannot keep the whole law, the consequence will be damnation.

  47. 47 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 4:31 am

    This is exactly what i am talking about. This last post by choose. Through Christ, we have already kept the law. We do not believe in once saved always saved. As such, we must continue to live a life that is acceptable for salvation. This (at bare minimum) means we must not blaspheme, which is part of the law.

  48. 48 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 4:40 am

    “But just in case we don’t, would you like to explain it again from beginning to end going into great detail just to be sure?”

    I believe in Christ. I believe HE gave us rules to live by. We have been going over this for months now (since i have been here). To try and cram several months worth of understanding into one post is not going to happen.

    Second: If you wish to say “this is how Christians view what you are saying,” then yes, a lot of falling apart would be headed off rather quickly. We do understand that there is a divide between your view and ours. We do try and explain it. The truth of the matter is, faith is the only thing that is going to allow you to accept what we teach, or we to accept what you teach. I can tell you my faith is ridiculously strong where it is, and mine is unwavering. This is exactly why i presented the challenge to prove me wrong, to prove my religion wrong. It sounds like yalls faith is plenty strong as well. The problem here is when material is presented that does not say “this is how we view what you are saying.” When you look like you say “you are saying this” and we obviously are not saying that, we feel that you have missed entirely what we have been saying.

  49. 49 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 4:49 am

    I understand LDS teachings perfectly well. It is my understanding that it is taught that Jesus gives you the power to keep the commandments. If you sin and don’t keep the commandments, you get less power from Christ to keep the commandments.

    First, If you understood perfectly well, this last sentence would not be here. Christ ALWAYS has the power there for you to use. It is personal choice to use it or not. (enter battle of free will) There is no waning of Christs power. The natural man does battle against God. We all know God allows that battle, and sometimes allows the bad to overcome the good. This does not in any way negate that God is God, or that His power has ever changed. It does (to me anyway) show that God will not force something down our throats. He allows us our trials and our tribulations,. Because of them, we have joy in our salvation.

  50. June 20, 2012 at 4:58 am

    Josh said: “Through Christ, we have already kept the law.”

    Could you explain this for everyone?

  51. 51 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 5:07 am

    please see post 23

  52. June 20, 2012 at 5:31 am

    Josh, well I read that when you posted it but I wasn’t too sure what you were trying to say.

  53. 53 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 5:48 am

    We claim the need to follow the law.
    The Law, as has been stated, demands perfection.
    We all concede that we are not perfect, and can never be 100% perfect (we can have a 100% perfection track record AFTER 1 sin, though that is a different discussion).
    There is only one that has lived on this earth that can be, and was 100% perfect. Jesus Christ (who fulfilled the law, not ended or destroyed it)
    By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.

    Has this explanation cleared this up any?

    Now, add to this that we must not blaspheme, and you see the continued need to “live righteous” enough for salvation. This “living” is through Christ. We accept the power that he has given us to overcome blasphemy. If we dont, we lose. We dont get to have Christ stand in for that one…

  54. 54 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 5:52 am

    Another thing i wish to clear up is the perception of perfection

    NO Mormon is saying “My life is 100% perfect.”
    NO Mormon is saying “I have no need of Christ.”

    What we ARE saying is “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life.”

    Will this happen? Who knows. Most likely not. The question is “CAN IT HAPPEN?” If it can, then what we are teaching is correct. IF you believe it cannot in any way shape or form ever happen, please provide scriptural evidence supporting your claim.

  55. 55 Kent
    June 20, 2012 at 9:40 am

    joshtried said, “Another thing i wish to clear up is the perception of perfection

    NO Mormon is saying “My life is 100% perfect.”
    NO Mormon is saying “I have no need of Christ.”

    What we ARE saying is “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life.”

    Will this happen? Who knows. Most likely not. The question is “CAN IT HAPPEN?” If it can, then what we are teaching is correct. IF you believe it cannot in any way shape or form ever happen, please provide scriptural evidence supporting your claim.”

    But what if you leave this earth before you reach this point and there really is, as we believe, only this lifetime to get it right and there really is, also what we believe, only two possible destinations either eternal life, minus being a god yourself, or having your part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone?

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    So Josh, if you left this earth today and you told a lie right before you died, lusted after a woman in your heart right before you died, or were angry at someone for cutting you off on the freeway and the person didn’t do it on purpose, which would make you angry at that person without a cause, which Jesus says puts you in danger of the judgement for being a murderer. That would make you a liar, sexually immoral, or a murderer at the time of your death. Remember, if you are guilty of breaking any part of the law, you are guilty of breaking the whole law.

    James 2:10

    10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

    But we really can have the assurance, now and not later, that we would be in the mansion where God is if we believe in who Jesus is and what He alone did to save us from our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone so, if we left this world at this moment and we had sinned right before this moment God would not see us as being liars, sexually immoral, murderers, etc but instead He would see the perfection we put on by believing in Jesus, what He did and not in what we do.

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  56. 56 Kent
    June 20, 2012 at 9:52 am

    For those who may be looking in and are not aware, what did Jesus do to save us from our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone? The answer is that He died in our place to take our punishment for all our sins upon Himself to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves, and He rose again on the third day.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  57. 57 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    I said, “If you sin and don’t keep the commandments, you get less power from Christ to keep the commandments.”

    Josh said, “First, If you understood perfectly well, this last sentence would not be here.”

    “The power to achieve justification does not reside in man. Man requires the power of the atonement of Christ flowing into him. If no power is being generated, one does not—indeed, cannot—turn the generators by hand (justification by works); but rather, an effort is made to remove those things which have blocked the power from flowing into the generators (working righteousness as a result of faith). With this background then, one can understand why the scriptures clearly stress that faith includes works (see James 2:17–26); that is, obedience, commitment, and repentance—these are the works of faith that open up the channels so that the power of the atoning sacrifice of Christ can flow into us, redeem us from sin, and bring us back into the presence of God. Disobedience and wickedness dam those channels. (How literal is the word damnation!) The righteous works in themselves do not save us. The atoning power of God saves us. But our righteous works, activated by our faith in the Savior, are the condition for the operation of that power. Thus, each of us has something to say about whether he will be able to seek the gift and power of the Atonement in his behalf.” ~ Gerald Lund

    According to Lund’s comments taken from LDS.org, I do understand:
    “Disobedience and wickedness dam those channels.” Christ’s power is blocked from you when you sin.
    “But our righteous works, activated by our faith in the Savior, are the condition for the operation of that power.” Access to Christ’s power is CONTITIONAL based on what YOU do!

    Josh said, “The natural man does battle against God.”
    Man NEVER does battle against God! Man does battle against Satan and evil. We do NOT fight God, we fight Satan.

  58. 58 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Colossians 1:21
    (KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    (NIV) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    James 4:4
    (NIV) You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

  59. 59 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    “According to Lund’s comments taken from LDS.org, I do understand:
    “Disobedience and wickedness dam those channels.” Christ’s power is blocked from you when you sin.
    “But our righteous works, activated by our faith in the Savior, are the condition for the operation of that power.” Access to Christ’s power is CONTITIONAL based on what YOU do! ”
    I am going to start by assuming this is “conditional.”

    Was it blocked, Echo, before the sin took place? Or was it blocked after said sin occurred?
    And why do you not include repentance in here? Would repentance not open back said channel?
    Maybe you would prefer someone to blaspheme left and right and take with him the power of Christ to hell? Wait, I dont think Christ would be okay with that….

  60. 60 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Josh said,
    NO Mormon is saying “My life is 100% perfect.”
    NO Mormon is saying “I have no need of Christ.”

    I understand this and I think everyone else does as well.

    Josh said, “What we ARE saying is “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life.”

    I/We are saying you CANNOT do this. If fact, YOU said you don’t believe you can do this when you said: “Will this happen? Who knows. Most likely not.” Which brings us to your problem: damnation will result from you not keeping the commandments continually: “Where I am, you cannot come”.

    Josh said, “IF you believe it cannot in any way shape or form ever happen, please provide scriptural evidence supporting your claim.”

    Romans 3:20
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Isaiah 64:6
    All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

    Romans 3:10
    As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one;

    1 John 1:10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

    “The heart is the most deceitful thing there is, and desperately wicked. No one can really know how bad it is! Only the Lord knows!” Jer. 17:9, 10.

    “The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who are wise, who want to please God. But no, all have strayed away; all are rotten with sin. Not one is good, not one!” Psalm 14:2, 3.

    Hebrews 7:19 For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Our confidence is in a better hope, Jesus Christ. Jesus did not come to give you the ability or the strength to live a sin free life. If this were the case, he has failed in his mission because NONE of us are continually keeping the commandments and living sin free lives.

    Shem said, “The true Gospel is not impossible. It is difficult, but it is still possible.”
    If it is possible, why are you not doing it?
    Shem says it is difficult, but Jesus said his yoke is EASY and his burden is light.

    The true gospel is easy: Jesus came to free us from the burden of our sins. He has taken our yoke for us. He took our sins to the cross. It is easy to give your sins to Jesus and accept his blood as the atonement for your sins. It is difficult to bind yourself to the burden of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel for your salvation which places the yoke of sin on you. The burden of sin is heavy. The yoke of sin is heavy and like Shem said, it is difficult.

    Mormons, by placing yourselves under the law for your salvation, you have yoked yourself to the law and your sins. The yoke of sin becomes heavy when you DO NOT keep the commandments continually. Jesus cannot carry your load unless you yoke yourself to him alone. Your load does not become light until you are able to stop sinning and you will never be able to stop sinning completely. No one will ever be able to do this.

    The good news of the gospel is that you can accept the blood of Christ alone for the atonement of your sins and be made perfect, holy, and blameless in the eyes of God. He will remember your sins no more.

    Shem’s way: difficult
    Jesus’ way: easy

  61. 61 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Colossians 1:21
    (KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    (NIV) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    James 4:4
    (NIV) You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

    Not sure what you are trying to get at here Josh, but those of us who are reconciled to God through the blood of Christ are not enemies of God.

    We do NOT fight against God, we fight Satan and evil.

  62. 62 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    That is why i said NATURAL MAN. The natural man is what we are before we find God. The “natural man” is an enemy of God. This is part of where Lutherans derive their understanding that a man can do absolutely nothing on his own to start being saved.

  63. 63 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    “Our confidence is in a better hope, Jesus Christ. Jesus did not come to give you the ability or the strength to live a sin free life. If this were the case, he has failed in his mission because NONE of us are continually keeping the commandments and living sin free lives.”

    Seriously.. in the name of all that is holy stop saying this… Not a single Mormon you will ever know will tell you this. If this is how Christians view what we are saying, you are wrong. WE WILL SIN.

    I stopped reading the rest, because you are not even in the slightest grasped what i wrote. the whole questions is “Can Jesus give you the strength to live a perfect life AFTER sin?” The Answer is YES HE CAN.
    The next question is “Do we accept his ability?” Most people do not understand it well enough to accept. Eventually though, everyone that comes to Christ should learn that he has this power to give them, if they would only use it.

  64. 64 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Josh said, Was it blocked, Echo, before the sin took place? Or was it blocked after said sin occurred?

    It was blocked due to your sins which means until you are continually obedient in keeping ALL of the commandments, you will not receive power from Christ because you have blocked yourself from Christ.

    Repentance?

    Until you have forsaken your sins, you will not be forgiven:

    Wilford Woodruff taught that repentance is the forsaking of sin. ~Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72

    Spencer Kimball taught this as well in The Miracle of Forgiveness.

    Repentance to the LDS people is a PROCESS and that process includes forsaking sins and keeping the commandments:

    Gospel Principles, Pages 123-127: We Must Keep the Commandments of God. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32).

    For a complete list of LDS references regarding the process of repentance see:

    http://latterdaysaintwoman.wordpress.com/lds-process-of-repentance/

    So Josh, your channel will NOT open until you can keep the commandments CONTINUALLY!

    Josh said,
    Maybe you would prefer someone to blaspheme left and right and take with him the power of Christ to hell? Wait, I dont think Christ would be okay with that….

    Well Josh, if a Mormon is not keeping all of the commandments continually, that said Mormon is that someone who is the one “to blaspheme left and right”:

    James 2:10
    10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

  65. 65 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Josh said, “Can Jesus give you the strength to live a perfect life AFTER sin?” The Answer is YES HE CAN.

    ONLY if YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS CONTINUALLY and YOU have admitted you don’t think you can ever do this.

    Gospel Principles, Pages 123-127: We Must Keep the Commandments of God. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32).

  66. 66 choosethechrist
    June 20, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Josh said, “WE WILL SIN.”

    Mormons, You’re gospel is impossible!

    Alma 11:37 states men can not be saved in their sins.

    Moroni 10:32 states that men must deny themselves of ALL ungodliness to receive God’s grace.

    Wilford Woodruff taught that repentance is the forsaking of sin. ~Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72

    3rd Article of Faith: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

    “Keep my commandments continually” or “where I am you cannot come”. WOW!

    I think the LDS people don’t want to believe their own doctrine and why would they? It is NOT good news!

    The good news is that because of the blood of Jesus all who believe may have eternal life and dwell in the house of the Lord forever!

  67. 67 joshtried
    June 20, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Well Josh, if a Mormon is not keeping all of the commandments continually, that said Mormon is that someone who is the one “to blaspheme left and right”
    Blasphemy is not the same as “just sinning.” Blasphemy is in its own little category called “unforgivable.” My point with using blasphemy at all was to show that there is a known point already established when Christ does “shut off the power.”

    You are incorrect about what Moroni says. Close, but incorrect.

    Lets touch on Woodruff for a moment, shall we? We sin. We repent. You must be assuming that we are committing the same sin over and over again. If we are doing this, then we are not accepting Christ for his power over sin. We are binding ourselves to it, and forsaking Christ. Is this how you prefer to live choose, bound to sin and forsaking Christs power over it?

    Anyway, i am out for the day. You are twisting this stuff beyond what i thought even you were capable of, and it is seriously hurting my brain.

  68. 68 JBR
    June 20, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    “nothing but the blood of Jesus!”

    yet “Man cannot be redeemed from this spiritual death by an act of Christ alone..”
    The Restored Church, Pgs. 562,563

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    Version 1
    So a person travels across the country by car.
    (S)He comes to his\her destination and knocks on the door
    The door opens, a voice asks ” did you come with nothing other than car and manual?”
    “Yes”, the person answers, “nothing but the car and manual”

    The voice asks: “What’s that in your shirt pocket over your heart? ”
    The person replies: “the only car manual that came with the car”
    .
    That is the Christian understanding of “nothing but the blood of Jesus”
    .
    .
    .

    What will the person hear?
    “Well then, come in. That was the will of the owner of the house”

    ——————————————————-

    Version 2
    So a person travels across the country by car.
    (S)He comes to his\her destination and knocks on the door.
    The door opens and somebody asks ” did you come with nothing other than car and manual?”
    “Yes”, the person answers, “nothing but the car”
    .. and
    … my humility,
    …. my sincerity,
    ….. my works,
    …… my attitudes,
    ……. my temple marriage,
    …….. my laying of hands,
    ……… my other “manuals” which are more accurate
    ……… my trust in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    The voice asks: “What’s that in your shirt pocket?
    The person replies: ” the other “manuals”, they’re more accurate and up to date.”
    .
    That is Mormonism’s understanding of “nothing but the blood of Jesus”
    .
    .
    .
    What will the person hear?
    “Well then, that’s what you call ‘alone’ ? Go away, you’re not coming in here.”

  69. 69 Kent
    June 20, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    But Joshtried, Shem, or any other Mormons, what if you left this earth this moment and you haven’t, as Josh said, “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life,” and your life ended before you were able to live that perfect life? I don’t believe anyone can live the perfect sinless life Josh talks about but even if you could but if you didn’t, would you inherit eternal life if you died before you could do so?

    And what if there really is only this lifetime and you don’t get a chance in the afterlife and there really is only two destinations, eternal life but minus being a god yourself, or having your part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone?

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    It is a scary thought to rely on what we do and be judged for it instead of relying on and being seen as perfect and blameless in God’s eyes by trusting in completely in what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to take away our sins.

    Because, to varying degrees, we all fit somewhere in the list of sins that would give us our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    And, realize, if we are guilty of breaking any of the law, we are guilty of the whole law.

    James 2:10

    10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

    But we can know that we don’t have to have any doubts if we left this earth this moment with any unfininshed business if we haven’t lived the perfect sinless life as Jesus lived the perfect sinless life for us.

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  70. 70 Kent
    June 20, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Joshtried said, “Another thing i wish to clear up is the perception of perfection

    NO Mormon is saying “My life is 100% perfect.”
    NO Mormon is saying “I have no need of Christ.”

    What we ARE saying is “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life.”

    The reason I don’t believe we can ever live perfect sinless live is because the Bible says “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    1 John 1:8

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  71. 71 Kent
    June 20, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    Jesus did take our sins upon Himself for us so God wouldn’t see our sins anymore for anyone who beiieves in Him and Jesus said it is finished.

    2 Corinthians 5:21

    21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    John 19:30

    30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  72. 72 shematwater
    June 20, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    KENT

    Do you really want to know our answer, or are you just ignoring us again, and trying to preach your own faith.
    Also, why haven’t you answered any of my questions.

    JBR

    Again you show a lack of understanding. Your analogy doesn’t fit. To be accurate you would have to compare your list to the gas and oil that allows the car to run. It is not that we bring these things with us, but that they are what allows the power of the atonement to act in our lives.
    Thus, in the first version the car would break down as it has no gas or oil (which will ruin the engine). In the second the person arrives with only the car and the manual, but the car is in good shape as he has taken care of it, which is why he has arrived.

    Actually, Choose gave you the perfect quote from Gerald Lund. It is the Blood of Christ, and only the blood that saves, but it is our actions that allow that power to act in our lives. I like his analogy of the generators and the flow of energy. We can’t change the actual flow; all we can do is either plug it or unplug it, as we choose.

    Quite honestly there is no difference in our understanding of this. The difference comes in how we believe that power to save operates in our lives. For you nothing we do can ever effect it, which basically means that no sin can cause us to loose it, and no righteousness can cause us to gain it. For us everything we do effects, either opening the power fully, or closing it completely, or any degree between.

    To use your car analogy:
    For you the car comes, lift you up and places you in the seat, drives you to the destination, and then places you at the front door, and knocks.
    For us the car is sent to us, but we first have to choose to get in, and then we have to drive it. We have our GPS to guide us, but the choice is still ours to follow its direction. When we get to the destination we choose to get out of the car, walk up to the door, and knock.
    In either case we can honestly say that drove a car, and that it was the car that brought us to our destination.

  73. June 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    Shem said: “KENT, Do you really want to know our answer, or are you just ignoring us again, and trying to preach your own faith. Also, why haven’t you answered any of my questions.”

    Have you read post 37? That might give you some indication as to why you might be ignored by some people.

  74. June 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Josh said: “By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.”

    Can you explain this in more detail?

    Josh said: “What we ARE saying is “After ONE SIN, I CAN live perfect for the rest of my mortal life.”

    Will this happen? Who knows. Most likely not. The question is “CAN IT HAPPEN?” If it can, then what we are teaching is correct. IF you believe it cannot in any way shape or form ever happen, please provide scriptural evidence supporting your claim.”

    Are you talking about a person having only one sin in their lives that they need to deal with or are you talking about a person with many sins but that ONE particular SIN they may overcome and be perfect from that particular single sin for the rest of their mortal life?

  75. June 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Shem said: “For you the car comes, lift you up and places you in the seat, drives you to the destination, and then places you at the front door, and knocks.
    For us the car is sent to us, but we first have to choose to get in, and then we have to drive it. We have our GPS to guide us, but the choice is still ours to follow its direction. When we get to the destination we choose to get out of the car, walk up to the door, and knock.
    In either case we can honestly say that drove a car, and that it was the car that brought us to our destination.”

    Shem, but notice, according to your analogy, you would not arrive at your destiny had you not driven the car. To us Christians, that no longer is “Nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    It’s sometimes better not to use analogies because they can be taken too far. Analogies are intended to make one single point of comparison and generally folks will try to make more out of it than the point intended. But for us, Jesus is driving the car. Now that’s nothing but the blood of Jesus. Or maybe better yet, Jesus already drove us home in the car. Since we have 100% certainty of his home being our home.

    At any rate, the car analogy doesn’t really work for our beliefs. Reason being that we are not going through a process of change in behavior that will result in our going to heaven. We don’t look at our lives as Christians as a road to heaven or an escalator to which we must gradually go up or a ladder to which we must climb. None of those apply to us. Jesus has come to down to us.

  76. 76 choosethechrist
    June 21, 2012 at 1:46 am

    Josh said,
    Blasphemy is not the same as “just sinning.” Blasphemy is in its own little category called “unforgivable.”

    Mark 3:28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
    Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    Not sure what you are thinking???

    Josh said, You must be assuming that we are committing the same sin over and over again. If we are doing this, then we are not accepting Christ for his power over sin. We are binding ourselves to it, and forsaking Christ.

    I am assuming that you are committing new sins and repeating some sins.

    D&C 82
    refrain from sin, lest sore judgments fall upon your heads.

    For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

    inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings, which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and justice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.

    but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

    I, the Lord, am abound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

  77. 77 choosethechrist
    June 21, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Josh, I too would like to hear your explaination of what you mean by this:

    Josh said: “By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.”

    From accepting the atonement of Christ @ http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=4408cb7a29c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD:

    “Joseph also told us that the Savior requires strict obedience to all the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom, and that if we would do this we should be made partakers of all the blessings promised in his Gospel” ~ Brigham Young (DNW, 22 Oct. 1862, 1).

    “To be Saints indeed requires every wrong influence that is within them, as individuals, to be subdued, until every evil desire is eradicated, and every feeling of their hearts is brought into subjection to the will of Christ” (DBY, 91).

    “I can say to you in regard to Jesus and the atonement (it is so written, and I firmly believe it), that Christ has died for all. He has paid the full debt, whether you receive the gift or not. But if we continue to sin, to lie, steal, bear false witness, we must repent of and forsake that sin to have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ.”

    This last quote says a lot.
    1. that Christ has died for all. He has paid the full debt, whether you receive the gift or not.
    Part of the blood of Christ or atonement will get you a ressurected body.

    2. But if we continue to sin, to lie, steal, bear false witness, we must repent of and forsake that sin to have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ.
    What happens after everyone gets a new body is up to them. The other part of the blood of Christ will give you eternal life IF you are able to keep strict obedience to ALL the commandments, ordinances and laws.

    The LDS person must repent and FORSAKE that sin to have the FULL efficacy of the blood of Christ and to the LDS person repentance is a process to complete it is not given just by asking for forgiveness.
    See the LDS process of repentance @ http://latterdaysaintwoman.wordpress.com/lds-process-of-repentance/

    My question here Josh, is how exactly did Christ fulfill your requirement to live the law perfectly if Jesus requires your STRICT obedience to ALL the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom and you cannot have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ unless you repent and forsake the sin?

  78. 78 choosethechrist
    June 21, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Josh, I too would like to hear your explaination of what you mean by this:

    Josh said: “By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.”

    From accepting the atonement of Christ @ http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=4408cb7a29c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD:

    “Joseph also told us that the Savior requires strict obedience to all the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom, and that if we would do this we should be made partakers of all the blessings promised in his Gospel” ~ Brigham Young (DNW, 22 Oct. 1862, 1).

    “To be Saints indeed requires every wrong influence that is within them, as individuals, to be subdued, until every evil desire is eradicated, and every feeling of their hearts is brought into subjection to the will of Christ” (DBY, 91).

    “I can say to you in regard to Jesus and the atonement (it is so written, and I firmly believe it), that Christ has died for all. He has paid the full debt, whether you receive the gift or not. But if we continue to sin, to lie, steal, bear false witness, we must repent of and forsake that sin to have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ.”

    This last quote says a lot.
    1. that Christ has died for all. He has paid the full debt, whether you receive the gift or not.
    Part of the blood of Christ or atonement will get you a ressurected body.

    2. But if we continue to sin, to lie, steal, bear false witness, we must repent of and forsake that sin to have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ.
    What happens after everyone gets a new body is up to them. The other part of the blood of Christ will give you eternal life IF you are able to keep strict obedience to ALL the commandments, ordinances and laws.

    The LDS person must repent and FORSAKE that sin to have the FULL efficacy of the blood of Christ and to the LDS person repentance is a process to complete it is not given just by asking for forgiveness.
    See the LDS process of repentance @ http://latterdaysaintwoman.wordpress.com/lds-process-of-repentance/

    My question here Josh, is how exactly did Christ fulfill your requirement to live the law perfectly if Jesus requires your STRICT obedience to ALL the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom and you cannot have the full efficacy of the blood of Christ unless you repent and forsake the sin? Did Christ stand in for your sins if access to eternal life is conditional for you based on your strict obedience to ALL the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom?

  79. 79 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Echo…
    I didn’t do the car anaology with the intent of being so theologically percise that the hardended of the hardest of hearts could not find a way to make it applicaple to them.

    The focus wasn’t about who\what represented the car, who was the driver… it was the what is “alone” and what God does to those who truely come before him trusting in Jesus by faith and that the Bible is all that is required for enterence vs the what Mormonism’s false gosple of what “alone” is and God’s rejection of that.

  80. 80 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    could not find a way [[[ NOT]]]] to make it applicaple to themself.

  81. 81 Kent
    June 21, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Shem, I did not write post 37 so, no, it doens’t apply to me as I have never said anything personally about anyone here, ever. When I am critical of Mormonism it is not being critical of you or any other Mormon as a person as what your church teaches is not you as an individual just as, for example, if an atheist is critical of my beliefs, I don’t think he or she is attacking me as person I just think that person is not correct in his or her beliefs.

    You, on th other hand, have called us ignorant fools and Joshtried awhile back said I was dumb because I just didn’t to seem to get what the Mormon Church is teaching correct. He did apologize, in a round about way, by saying he was sorry that I was offended that I took it as him saying I am dumb when, in fact, it was hard not take it that way.

    RLO is correct, referring to others here as ignorant fools is wrong but him, making fun of your spelling error, is wrong also.

    Below is post 37.

    RLO
    June 19, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Shem said: “Let me sumerise the LDS doctrine and what is actually taught, since so many ignorant fools are making such a mess of things.”

    Shem, do you really believe that referring to others as “ignorant fools” actually fosters an encouraging environment for dialog?

    Do you think it reflects well on The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints when you, as one of its temple- worthy members in good standing, speak to others in this manner?

    For so long, I have hoped that with some encouragements from me, as well as the encouragements of a few others, you would eventually cool your head, warm your heart, check your tongue, and begin speaking and treating others with a greater sense of dignity and respect. But alas, it seems these things are just simply not consistent with your nature. Even were your arguments to carry any degree of credibility – a point by which no means do I concede – but were they to carry any credibility, you yourself destroy any hope that someone could possibly give your views any consideration because of the way you express yourself. It would be better if your viewpoints were accepted or rejected based on their own merits or lack thereof, rather than being dismissed out of hand due to the caustic personality of their author.

    Furthermore, ” . . . sumerise . . . ” ? Seriously ??

    “S-u-m-m-a-r-i-z-e” !!

    Until you learn to spell correctly, I really don’t think you should be referring to others as “ignorant fools.”

  82. 82 joshtried
    June 21, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    Matthew 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

    Matthew 12:31……but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32……. but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Luke 12:10 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    I guess i should have been more precise in saying “against the HG”….

  83. 83 joshtried
    June 21, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    “Are you talking about a person having only one sin in their lives that they need to deal with or are you talking about a person with many sins but that ONE particular SIN they may overcome and be perfect from that particular single sin for the rest of their mortal life?”

    What I am saying Echo, is that it is possible for a person to only commit one sin in their entire life. There is no prerequisite stating otherwise.

    As to the “am i perfect before I die” thing. That is not your concern, and i have addressed this before. Stop worrying about If I am good enough. My life is not your concern. The short answer is so long as i have not blasphemed against the HG, I am perfect now, through my accepting Christ as my savior. Mark has asked this question similarly since i have joined… “Are you sure your going to heaven?” To which i say “beyond a shadow of a doubt i am sure.” I am sorry if you feel that you cant live up to our standards. I can, and do. It is not hard, but it does take commitment.

  84. 84 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Ah … I was not “making fun of Shem’s spelling error”.

    I was applying the “stumble in one point, your guilty of all” that God revealed.
    The point was God didn’t reveal ” if you break one, you’re guilty of all” .. the standard for perfection goes much beyond breaking a command, it is to include the meer stumble even if it was inadvertant you’re guilty of all.

    So the one spelling error (though advertant) by God’s standard would the equilevant of the writer of being totally guilty of everything thing possible that one can do incorrectly in spelling, punctuation, grammer ect.

    The true Gospel is 100% “by the blood of Jesus” by faith alone through grace alone, revealed in the Bible alone.

  85. June 21, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Josh, what about this question I asked:

    “Josh said: “By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.”

    Can you explain this in more detail?

    Josh said: ” I am sorry if you feel that you cant live up to our standards. I can, and do. It is not hard, but it does take commitment.”

    The Apostle Paul couldn’t live up to your standards either…

    Romans 7:18-19 “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.”

  86. June 21, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Josh,

    It seems to me that Christians do keep LDS Standards as well as the LDS do. I think the problem here is that the LDS have much lower standards of what sin really is than the Apostle Paul and Christians have.

  87. 87 shematwater
    June 21, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    You know, if I was to ignore everyone who made a negative remark about me I would have left this blog years ago.
    JBR has stated that a gramatical error is proof that I am lying.
    RJO has stated that a spelling error is proof that I have no credibility.
    ECHO has, on multiple occassion accused me of deceit, arrogance, and many other things.

    No, it was not in good taste to call anyone a fool, but pointing out ignorance is merely pointing out fact. I did not call anyone stupid or dumb, or incapable of learning. I called you all ignorant, which simply means you lack the knowledge. This is not an insult but a statement of fact.

    ECHO

    Josh said: “By accepting Christ as a stand in for our sins (which is what he did and does), we accept Christ as fulfilling our requirement to live the law perfectly.”

    “Can you explain this in more detail?”

    Because Christ died on the cross and satisfied the demands of Justice I no longer have to rely on my ability to live the law perfectly. That requirement is fulfilled. If we accept Christ the full weight of justice no longer rests on us. However, we are still bound to obey him as much as is in our power to do so, and if we do so he will claim us. Perfect obedience is not the requirement. Perfect submission is.

    As to the analogy, even with Christ driving the car, we still made the choice to get in.
    Let us try another analogy: The king is coming to bless your house. First of all, is the road clear so that he can come? It is and he arrives and knocks on the door. Do you let him in? You do. Being the King he expects certain protocols, such as providing food. Do you have such prepared? You do, and he eats. When he is done he blesses the house and leaves.
    Question: In all this, where was the power that blessed the house. We the power in clearing the road? Was it in opening the door? Was it in presenting the food? No. The power was in the King, and only the King. Nothing you did blessed the house, nor did it give the king the power to do so. He had the power, and only he had the power. All you did was prepare yourself so that when he chose to use the power you were ready to receive it.
    What would have happened if the road was not clear? The king would have continued to the next house.
    What would have happened if you had not opened the door? The King would have continued on.
    What would have happened if you had not presented the food? The King would have given a lesser blessing.

    The same thing is true of the atonement. The Power of Salvation is contained only within the blood of Christ. Nothing we do can save us, or even effect the power that does save us. What we do is prepare ourselves so that when Christ comes we are ready to receive that power.

    KENT

    Let me answer your question.
    If the Lutherans are right than it doesn’t matter. Either God has chosen me or he hasn’t and my sentence to Heaven or Hell is so completely out of my hands that it means absolutely nothing if I am perfect or not.
    If you are right I have to say that I have no worries. I believe in Christ; I believe that he can make anything possible; I believe that nothing but his atoning sacrifice can redeem me from my fallen state. From everything you have been saying here I have no worries because this means I will be going to heaven. So, see ya there.

    Now, how about answering my questions? Let us even add a third one, but review first.
    What would you do if Christ himself appeared to you and commanded you to join the LDS church?
    Can a man truly believe in Christ and yet willfully disobey him?
    What if you leave this earth and there really is a spirit prison, as we believe; and there really is degrees of glory, as we believe; and that the ordinances of the LDS church really are required, as we believe; what will you do?

  88. June 21, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Shem said: “As to the analogy, even with Christ driving the car, we still made the choice to get in.”

    As I stated earlier, analogies are intended to make one point of comparison and that’s it. You keep missing the point by trying to take the analogy too far.

    Children born not of a human decision. John 1:13

    Shem said ” However, we are still bound to obey him as much as is in our power to do so, and if we do so he will claim us.”

    How SAD that is!!

    Our God has already claimed us. That’s why we want to obey him.

    Shem said: “Kent: What would you do if Christ himself appeared to you and commanded you to join the LDS church?”

    The devil can appear to you and claim he is Christ and then command you to join the LDS church.

    Shem said: “Can a man truly believe in Christ and yet willfully disobey him?”

    We believe that God gives us a new heart, a heart that desires to obey him and not willfully disobey him.

    Shem said: “What if you leave this earth and there really is a spirit prison, as we believe; and there really is degrees of glory, as we believe; and that the ordinances of the LDS church really are required, as we believe; what will you do?”

    Our God doesn’t have requirements Shem. Your God loves you conditionally. Our God loves us unconditionally.

  89. 89 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Shem,
    We do not have the ability to “choose” to get into the car.

    Ephesians 2:1
    “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” KJV

    conclusion: just as the physically dead can not do anything for themself, neither can the spirtually dead.
    ———————————-
    Colossians 2:13
    And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” KJV

    conclusion: whom makes you a person “quickened together” spiritually and how there is no “after all you can do” of how many trespasses ……. all!
    ————————————
    Psalm 51:5
    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    conclusion: when does this begin… at conception.
    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    The “travel” is a person’s life on earth

    The “house” is Mormonism version of exaltation as it is as “heaven”

    The “voice” is Jesus is the judge who is also God (as part of the Triune God)
    The “driver” is Jesus which the true gospel reveales as the designated driver for those who have the correct belief about him and God

    The “manual” is the Bible

    Version #1 is the Christian entering exaltation (heaven) based on faith in ” having forgiven you all trespasses” because of ““nothing but the blood of Jesus”

    —–
    Version #2 is the Mormon being sent to outer darkness.
    Mormonism has Jesus not as the sole designated driver, but more as a “shot gun” driver.
    Mormonism claims that the car “manual” is not sufficient enough
    Mormonism claims that at sometime in the future a man will get his own house

    ==================================================================

    All your questions are flawed … all your annolgies are flawed x’s 2 …. thus all your end solutions to what you think you’re going to have are flawed x’s 3

  90. 90 shematwater
    June 21, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    ECHO and JBR

    You have just brought us back to Josh’s old question: If I can do nothing to be saved, or chosen by Christ, what is the purpose of you telling me? Why have this blog in the first place if it can actually have no effect on anything?

    ECHO

    You avoid the questions nicely. I don’t think you would mind too much if I never answer yours again, as you refuse to answer mine.

    “The devil can appear to you and claim he is Christ and then command you to join the LDS church.”

    I wasn’t asking about the devil deceiving you. I was asking about Christ himself coming and telling you to join the church. The question does not involve the devil in the least bit. If Christ commanded it, would you do it.

    “We believe that God gives us a new heart, a heart that desires to obey him and not willfully disobey him.”

    Again you do not answer the question. I did not ask if you wanted to, but if you could. To put it a simpler way, does willful disobedience mean you do not believe?

    “Our God doesn’t have requirements Shem.”

    I know the being your worship doesn’t require anything of you. That was not my question. My question was “What would you do today if you died and found out that we were right?”

    “Your God loves you conditionally.”

    By this you clearly show that you have no understanding of our doctrine and the true nature of God. You continually confuse love with acceptance.
    God loves all his children unconditionally. He loves Hitler just as unconditionally as he loves Peter, or Paul, or you, or me. The difference is not in the love, but in the acceptance, because God cannot look on sin with the least degree of allowance. He can love us, and yet still not accept our chosen life.
    Quite honestly, I have seen more love and mercy in the LDS doctrine than I have ever seen in anything you have professed.

  91. 91 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    You’ll just have to contemplate how one gets faith by not hearing … either through the Word of God (the Bible) by reading it or someone speaking the the words of the Word of God (the Bible). …….. read Romans 10:17

    This blog’s purpose (and telling people) is so that those who have ears …. listens.
    This blog’s purpose (and telling people) is so that those who have eyes …. sees.

  92. 92 choosethechrist
    June 21, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Shem said Perfect obedience is not the requirement. Perfect submission is.

    Why the Effects of the Atonement are Conditional (http://www.mormonwiki.com/Atonement_of_Jesus_Christ):

    “Because God guarantees agency to His children, He cannot force them to acknowledge Him or to follow His plan. Many of His children reject Him. The Atonement enables men and women to return to the presence of God after their resurrection, but only if they accept Christ and desire to reconcile themselves to God. To lay hold upon the power of the Atonement, a person must do certain things. First, he must have faith in Christ; second, he must repent of his sins; third, he must be baptized by someone who has the proper priesthood authority; fourth, he needs to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands; and finally, he must strive to keep the commandments of God to the end of his life.”

    The atonement for the LDS is conditional, but the atonement for the Christian is not:

    “Ephesians 1:7 clearly states, “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.” Romans 3:24 says that we “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.” All of our sins were “canceled” since the punishment for sin was put away, “nailing it to the cross” (Col. 2:14). What is the requirement? A trusting belief in the biblical Jesus (e.g. John 3:16; Acts 10:43, 16:31; Rom. 10:9,10). This is the core of the basic gospel message.” ~http://www.mrm.org/28-step-forgiveness

    Shem, would you mind telling us how you would define obedience vs submission and provide us with some LDS references that show what you mean by your statement above and how what you are saying ties into this where the word obedience is used:

    3rd Article of Faith: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

  93. 93 JBR
    June 21, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    btw … what would we do if such a “Jesus” said what you’re asking:
    We would search the Bible to see if it true or not.

    And fortunatly … there is more than hop-sctoch approach to determining the truth when it comes to the Bible. The Bible explains itself. Where no explanation is given, one doesn’t rely on one coming down the pike.

    One’s that do (not found in the Bible) are not from God but Satan.

  94. 94 choosethechrist
    June 21, 2012 at 10:36 pm

    I agree with JBR. We fall back on what God has said in the Bible to discern truth from falsehood. If “Jesus” came and told us to join the LDS church, we would be skeptical of such a message and would not believe Jesus would ask such a thing of us. Jesus said, no one comes to the Father accept through him. Jesus didn’t say we come to the father through him, the LDS church, and our obedience. We know that is wrong. We know that we are saved by grace through faith, not through the LDS church. No middle man required, just Jesus.

  95. 95 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 4:45 am

    And our Jesus would not say that we need Joseph Smith’s consent to be with Heavenly Father as choosethechrist said, our Jesus told us that no one comes comes to the Father except through Him (Jesus).

    Joseph Smith has nothing to do with it no matter what Brigham Young said.

  96. 96 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 4:47 am

    Also, our Jesus would not tell us to join a church that says the fall of mankind was a good thing.

  97. 97 joshtried
    June 22, 2012 at 5:17 am

    So everything from God is not good?

  98. 98 JBR
    June 22, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Josh…
    As been said many times over,
    Not everything is from God who claims that it is.
    Whomever appeared to Joseph Smith was not from God.

  99. 99 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 10:23 am

    The fall of mankind was not from God and, no, it was not good. If anyone thinks it is good, tell that to the young widow who I know who recently lost her husband to brain cancer who now has to raise two small children without him by her side. The fall is the reason why he suffered so much pain in the last year of his life brought on by Adam and Eve’s disobedienance in the garden.

    God did not tell them to be fruitful and muiltipy but to do so they would have to disobey Him. That is a lie that lie straight from the pit of hell itself! They would have had chidren if they would have stayed in the garden but none of them would have had to go through all the pain and suffering that they go through now and there is nothing in the Bible that suggests otherwise. That is why, among other reasons, we reject the so called extra truth that is added on by the Mormon Church in its various other scriptures and teachings and the only truth for all things spiritual is found in the pages of the Bible, the true most correct book on earth, and in no other book.

    Thank God though that the young husband was a believer in the real Jesus of the Bible as he is now knows no pain and suffering as he has returned to where he, and all of us, should have been in the first place if the fall had never happened.

  100. 100 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Mormons, I already know I have eternal life because I believe in the Son. Do you truly know you have eternal life if you left this earth this moment. Have you obeyed all of the laws and ordinances enough to be there now as you really do only have this lifetime to do so.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  101. 101 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Yes, Shem, that is exactly what I am doing I am sharing my faith and the reasons, why I believe what i believe but at the same time I am sharing the reasons why I believe that the Mormon Church and its teachings are not true.

    I am not trying to prove anything to you or anyone else as only the Holy Spirit can truly do so.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  102. 102 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Here is an interesting contrast:

    “The gospel teaches us all we need to know to return to live with our Father in Heaven… According to Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “Eternal life is not a name that has reference only to the unending duration of a future life; immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But only those who obey the fulness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life.” (The Gospel of Jesus Christ, Elder L. Tom Perry, Ensign, April 2008)

    OR

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    So that is why I know I have eternal life but minus ever being a god myself but really, being in the presence of God for all eternity is good enough for me and, frankly, i don’t want to be a god anyway.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  103. 103 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Has anyone else here noticed that we can’t seem to get anywhere when it comes to getting the mormons here to really open up as to what the LDS church really teaches. It is my observation that they are spending way more time trying to emphasize the things like how they believe in Jesus rather than their own core doctrines especially the ones that truly make them different. Why is that?

    1.“Perhaps we need to rethink the idea of seeking common ground with those we desire to teach. Every likeness we identify leaves them with one less reason to join the Church. When we cease to be different we cease to be.”
    2.“Truth, however, is more important than harmony.”
    3.“Any time we declare something to be true, we have picked a fight with that which is untrue… It is as certain as the night following the day that we will never be able to declare our message without opposition or without giving offense to some.” ~Joseph Fielding McConkie

    “I happen to agree with McConkie regarding the above points (though, of course, for different reasons). Shallow conversations that fail to define our unique positions do nothing to compel Mormons to see the importance of biblical teaching over “latter-day revelation” that tends to contradict it. While I am a strong proponent of displaying respectful behavior towards members of the LDS Church, I find it delusional to think that we can ignore the necessary message of the gospel and still somehow call this evangelism. At some point in their lives, Mormons need to confront the issues that separate their error from orthodoxy.” ~Bill McKeever
    Should we dwell on similarities @ http://www.mrm.org/similarities

    There are a lot more distinctions between Mormonism and Christianity than similarities. I for one would like to see the LDS who post to this blog do a better job of presenting those distinctions from their side of things and wonder why they do not do so?

  104. 104 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Nothing but the blood of Jesus?

    I would appreciate a response to this question:

    Why did the high priest need to make the sin offering involving blood at Yom Kippur or what is the significance of the blood used?

    Leviticus 16:11–14 (NIV)
    11 “Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant …

  105. 105 shematwater
    June 22, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    CHOOSE

    Until you people answer my question, why should I answer yours? Please explain why I should participate in what you manipulate into a one sided discussion? I am curious.
    However, as I love a good debate, and I love the truth, and I want all men to know it, I will answer.

    You asked: “would you mind telling us how you would define obedience vs submission and provide us with some LDS references that show what you mean”

    You also answered the question yourself, which would indicate you don’t understand the very quote you give. The very last line explains it all.
    “and finally, he must strive to keep the commandments of God to the end of his life.”
    This does not say that perfect obedience is required, but a striving for perfect obedience. A man cannot have faith and say that is it, he is done. He cannot be baptized and think that he is saved. He must submit himself to the will of the Lord so completely that everything he does is done out of a desire to obey the Lord. He must strive to live every law, to fulfill every command. It is not required that he does so perfectly, but that he strives to do so perfectly.
    This is what I mean by perfect submission. A striving to do everything that God has commanded, and submitting to any consequence or trial that God sees fit to meet out.
    It is like the story of the man who was told to push a boulder. He knew he could never move the thing, but he obeyed the command and pushed. When his lord returned he faced him in shame as the boulder had not moved. But the Lord only blessed him and said “I did not command you to move the stone, but to push; that you have done, and for that you will be rewarded.

    “Why did the high priest need to make the sin offering involving blood at Yom Kippur or what is the significance of the blood used?”

    Why did Christ say that he was baptized to fulfill all righteousness?
    The purpose of the sin offering was to symbolize the effect of the atonement. Just as the blood of the bulock was sprinkled on the mercy seat, so too would the blood of Christ be sprinkled before the Lord. I find the sprinkling seven times significant, as from the time that Christ sweat blood on the Garden to the day of his resurrection was seven day.
    However, just as baptism does not literally cleanse a person of sin, this blood offering did not literally cleanse anyone. Both are symbolic, and both must be done in faith on the atonement of Christ. Neither one has any effect if the atonement is not active in our lives.
    The purpose of all the sacrifices was to remind people of the truths of the gospel and power of the atonement. They were commanded, so they were required, but they had no literal effect on the state of the soul.

    JBR

    “what would we do if such a “Jesus” said what you’re asking:
    We would search the Bible to see if it true or not.”

    Again this is not an answer to the question; but it does shed some interesting light on you and the methods of your faith. It shows that you put more faith in the Bible, and a greater willingness to obey it than you have in God himself. You have basically said that even if God himself came down and told you you were wrong you would not except it because it does not conform to your interpretation of the Bible.
    Of course that is the most common attitude among the so called Christian world; one that is not shared by the prophets of the Bible. They did not question the word of God when it was revealed to them, but obeyed.
    For example: God had revealed to Noah that “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” (Genesis 9: 6). Still, when God came down and command Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering Abraham did not go and read this account of Noah and say, “Well it says here that killing others is wrong, so I guess that wasn’t from God.” This thought never entered his mind. The command was given and he immediately obeyed, and for his obedience he was told “now I know that thou fearest God.”

    But you have proven your faith. You would question God himself rather than question your interpretation of the Bible.

  106. 106 Kent
    June 22, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    One of the things we are told by Mormons is how we don’t understand their doctrine and about how we don’t state it correctly however, do they realize that at times this is something they do?

    An example of this is that when we state we don’t have to do anything to have eternal life just believe in Jesus, their reaction can be that we are saying we have a license to sin when we have never said any such thing. In fact we say that God dosen’t want us to sin but if it is either about keeping the commandments 100% of the time, which is impossible, or it is about trusting and believing only in what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and that His grace is a free gift that isn’t contingent on after all we can do.

    The grossest example of this, and no Mormons here said this, but a Mormon at another site compared me to Hitler when I said the Bible teaches that there isn’t anything we can do that has anything to do with our eternal destination, that it is all about who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising on the third day and it is not about what we do at all. So his assumption was that I was saying that anybody who is saved could commit the most griveous of sins and it wouldn’t matter because they are saved.

    Here is what He said, “YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.”

    What I do say is that bottom line, being saved doesn’t gives us a license to freely sin but that we live moral lives because we are saved, it follows from our faith but does not contribute to it at all, that because we are born again we have new heart given to us by the blood of Jesus, we are new creations in Christ, with a desire to not live sinful lifestyles and that if we are living sinful lifestyles, it can be evidence that we are not really believers in Christ at all. I think I can safely say there is evidence, by the evil works that he did, that Adollf Hitler was not a believer in Christ.

    Can the Mormon at the other site even see that he violated one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness against me? I do think though that this a great example of how we can’t really trust our emotions, our feelings, for truth as this Mormon reacted with anger and, yes, he was wrong to compare me to Hitler and anyone else, Mormons included, can see it except him as he is blinded by his anger, his emotions, towards me.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  107. 107 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Shem, am I to understand that you are saying that submit and obey mean the same thing? They mean different things to me which is what I am trying to get at and would like to know what you think the difference is unless you see them as being the same.

    And, I don’t recall you directing any questions to me that I didn’t answer. I did answer a question that was not directed at me though.

  108. 108 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Shem, could you provide me with your reference for this: Why did Christ say that he was baptized to fulfill all righteousness?

  109. 109 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Shem said,
    “The purpose of the sin offering was to symbolize the effect of the atonement.”
    “this blood offering did not literally cleanse anyone. Both are symbolic, and both must be done in faith on the atonement of Christ.”

    Leviticus 17:11 (NIV)
    11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

    I think we all understand the faith part of things here. Are you sure that the blood did not literally cleanse anyone?
    What would have happened to the priest or anyone else who tried to enter God’s presence in the holy of holies without making the blood atonement?

  110. 110 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Also Shem, if Jesus appeared before you today and told you to kill your child (assuming you have one) would you do it?

  111. 111 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Shem, because of this statement: “The purpose of all the sacrifices was to remind people of the truths of the gospel and power of the atonement. They were commanded, so they were required, but they had no literal effect on the state of the soul.”

    I thought I should provide you with the KJV:

    Leviticus 17:11
    King James Version (KJV)
    11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Why would God say that He specifically gave the Jews blood upon the altar as the means of making atonement for their souls unless He actually intended for blood to be the means of atonement?

  112. 112 shematwater
    June 22, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    KENT

    Please answer this question: If a person truly believes in Christ, and is saved, and then he goes and commits a mass murder, what is the consequence of that action?

    CHOOSE

    You misunderstand.
    Submit, from the online dictionary.\
    1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
    2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
    3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others
    5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.
    6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.
    7. to defer to another’s judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.

    Synonyms
    1. comply, bow, OBEY, agree, resign. See yield.

    Yes, to submit is to obey, but the connotations are very different. It is not perfect obedience, but a willingness to accept the judgement of God over your own. Not only are you willing to obey the commands he has given, but you are willing to accept whatever consequences he decrees for breaking them.
    Perfect obedience is not required; that requirement was filled by Christ. Perfect submission is required.
    The difference: Perfect obedience requires that not a single sin be committed ever. Perfect submission requires that when a sin is committed we do what is needed to repent of it. We strive for that perfect obedience, and submit to the Lord’s judgement when we fail.

    As to the blood, I am sure it did not cleanse anything. Read it again. It is the blood that atones, for in the blood is the life force. But it does not say that it is the blood of the animal that atones. It is again speaking to the symbolism; the reason the blood is required in this sacrifice is because it is symbolizing the cleansing blood of Christ.
    Now, if the priest entered the Holy of Holies without doing this he would be committing a grave blaspheme. That does not mean the blood literally cleanses, only that he is violating the sanctity of the space: Just as we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without the blood of Christ, so too the symbolic entering of the symbolic Celestial Kingdom cannot be truly done without the symbolic blood.

    Matthew 3: 15 “And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.”
    John knew Christ was perfect, and hesitated to baptize him because of this; but Christ said that he was to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

  113. 113 JBR
    June 22, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    So the Bible isn’t enough for Shem …. should I be surprise?

    That is of course what proves the contempt and opinion that is really held in Mormonism about the Bible …. lip service.

    Children of God who believe in the truth do not have such opinion.
    The Bible will do fine on it’s own, the Bible alone is God’s Word, the Bible alone is the complete revelation of God’s will and purpose and salvation to all who believe.

    Every false teacher \ false religion \ every cult \ every athesist have one common starting point…………… the down play of the Bible in some way shape or manner.

    I leave you to your chosen rejection and wanton blindness.

  114. 114 choosethechrist
    June 22, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    Shem, would you agree that the priest would be in violation of the sanctity of the space because of his sins? Do you believe the blood provided atonement for the priests sins so that he could survive being in God’s presence? If the blood did not cleanse the Hebrews from their sins what did?

    Also, If the blood of Christ does not cleanse you so that you can enter the Celestial Kingdom, what does the blood of Christ do for you so that you can enter the Celstial Kingdom?

  115. 115 joshtried
    June 23, 2012 at 1:02 am

    So it is okay for Lutherans to elaborate to infinity the immutability of God’s will, but it is not okay to say that God’s will in everything is good? Here is a perfect example were human logic is plain as day wrong, that what humans see as good and bad are incorrect, that Mormons are admitting, and you reject it. EVERYTHING from God has a purpose. EVERYTHING is good. We just dont fully understand how that is yet. Why would Satan exist if bad is really bad? Why not just eliminate bad from the known universe? Because it has a purpose, and that purpose is good in God’s sight.

    And Choose, the animal sacrifice was symbolic. If it was done with proper reverence and understanding of the true atonement of Christ, it had power. If they did it just because, well… “glittering vices” i think these things were once called. We dont know how often God was with the priests in the Holy of Holies. We dont know which priests he visited and which he didnt.

    Finally for today, when we know God our bodies are able to discern from Satan and God. Shem did not even ask if you were able to do this (which would have been a good question.) He simply asked if God appeared (with the pretext that yes he is God and we all know him to be so) and God said join this church, would you do it?

    One of the biggest questions i have ever asked is how does God appear to change his mind in scriptures?… He saves Israel, and while they are wandering through the desert for 40 years, how many times does he go to just wipe them all out and changes his mind? Was he really going to wipe them out? Or was this a test for Moses to pass? I dont have the answer to all of these things, but i do know that God commands things that “SEEM” to contradict other things. “Thou shalt not murder” “Moses, stab this guy in the face…” “David, lead this war” “Moses, wipe out this entire nation” in what should have been genocide…. So, is killing allowed, or not? This is just one example of things that CAN be confusing. As LDS, I do see how you think what we are telling you is wrong. You see the “thou shalt not murder” and we are giving you the “commit genocide” order… I hope you come to realize who we receive these things from before it is too late (and no, it is not Satan….)

  116. 116 Kent
    June 23, 2012 at 8:21 am

    Shem, although I would have questions about whether a mass murderer really was a true believer in Christ based on his actions, if he was a true believer in Christ, but only God and the person himself truly knows if this is the case or not, he would have eternal life in the presence of God forever but he would have to pay the penalty for his crimes here on earth which could include, depending on the jurisdiction who was prosecuting the crimes, being put to death for his crimes. The blood of Jesus took away all of the sins of the world, not just some, or most of the sins of the world.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  117. 117 Kent
    June 23, 2012 at 11:34 am

    I posted the last entry to the wrong thread.

  118. 118 Kent
    June 23, 2012 at 11:44 am

    Correction, the last entry is in reference to a question by Shem on this thread. Anyhow, that doesn’t mean God is fine with a murderer’s sin but the sin is forgiven by God. Jesus died on the cross to take away the sins of the world and murder, even mass murder, is one of them.

  119. 119 Kent
    June 23, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Joshtried said, “So it is okay for Lutherans to elaborate to infinity the immutability of God’s will, but it is not okay to say that God’s will in everything is good? Here is a perfect example were human logic is plain as day wrong, that what humans see as good and bad are incorrect, that Mormons are admitting, and you reject it. EVERYTHING from God has a purpose. EVERYTHING is good. We just dont fully understand how that is yet. Why would Satan exist if bad is really bad? Why not just eliminate bad from the known universe? Because it has a purpose, and that purpose is good in God’s sight.”

    The fact that Satan is a creation of God is not bad in itself but Satan rebelling against God and taking a third of the angels with him is bad so his rebelling against God is what made him bad not the fact that he was initially created by God. So Satan rebelling against God was not God’s plan at all. God’s plan was for people, and angels as well such as Satan, to not to do bad but God gave people and, again, angels as well, free will and Satan used his free will to do bad.

  120. 120 choosethechrist
    June 23, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    “And Choose, the animal sacrifice was symbolic. If it was done with proper reverence and understanding of the true atonement of Christ, it had power. If they did it just because, well… “glittering vices” i think these things were once called.” ~ Josh

    Like I said earlier regarding faith, I think all of us here are coming from a place of having faith and proper reverence.

    What is the blood atonement symbolic of for the mormon if it does not cleanse? What does the blood atonement do for the mormon and at what point does it take effect?

  121. 121 joshtried
    June 23, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Kent, does God have the power to wipe out Satan? Why not just remove him completely? Why allow him to continue at all? The fact that he is allowed to continue shows that God uses him for a purpose, which is a good thing.

  122. June 24, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Shem said: “You have just brought us back to Josh’s old question: If I can do nothing to be saved, or chosen by Christ, what is the purpose of you telling me? Why have this blog in the first place if it can actually have no effect on anything? ”

    The Holy Spirit creates faith through God’s word.

    Shem said: ” wasn’t asking about the devil deceiving you. I was asking about Christ himself coming and telling you to join the church. The question does not involve the devil in the least bit. If Christ commanded it, would you do it.”

    The Bible teaches that Christ would never tell me to join the Mormon Church.

    Shem said: “Again you do not answer the question. I did not ask if you wanted to, but if you could. To put it a simpler way, does willful disobedience mean you do not believe?”

    Not necessarily. Your question isn’t specific enough.

    Shem said: “I know the being your worship doesn’t require anything of you. That was not my question. My question was “What would you do today if you died and found out that we were right?”

    You ask an impossible question. I KNOW for a fact you are not right.

    “Echo said: “Your God loves you conditionally.”

    Shem replied: “By this you clearly show that you have no understanding of our doctrine and the true nature of God. You continually confuse love with acceptance.”

    By this you clearly show how blind you are to the truth.

  123. 123 choosethechrist
    June 25, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Revelation 1:5
    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

  124. 124 shematwater
    June 25, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    CHOOSE

    “would you agree that the priest would be in violation of the sanctity of the space because of his sins?”

    No. He would be in violation of the sanctity of the space because he did not perform the needed rituals and thus entered without the approval of God. His sins have nothing to do with it. It is only this ritual that makes him in compliance with or in violation against the Holy of Holies.

    “Do you believe the blood provided atonement for the priests sins so that he could survive being in God’s presence?”

    The blood of Christ did, but not the blood of the animal. The blood of the animal did nothing, except in as far as it symbolized the atonement, and in performing the ritual the priest was being obedient to God’s commands.

    “If the blood did not cleanse the Hebrews from their sins what did?”

    The blood of Christ cleansed them from their sins. The atonement was not only for those who lived after Christ, but for all men who lived, from Adam down to the last person born before the final judgement. The sacrifice and sprinkling of the blood was done to symbolize this atoning power found in the sacrifice that would be performed by Christ.

    “What is the blood atonement symbolic of for the mormon if it does not cleanse?”

    The sacrifice performed by the Levitical Priests symbolized the atonement. It carries the same symbol for us as it did for them.

    “What does the blood atonement do for the mormon and at what point does it take effect?”

    Since we are no longer living under the Law of Moses it would do nothing for us, and never take effect. In fact, if anyone were to perform such a sacrifice they would be in violation of the will of God, as he has fulfilled the Law of Moses, and thus has commanded that those practices cease. To perform them now would be an affront to God.

  125. 125 shematwater
    June 25, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    ECHO

    Again you avoid every question. Actually, your answers give great insight into you personally.
    First, you have the same attitute of JBR, in that you prefer to take your interpretation of the Bible over everything else, including direct commands from God himself. Anything that does not conform to your views will be rationalized away.
    Second, you keep asking us to keep an open mind, and tell us that you are going to do the same. You criticize us for saying that we know the LDS church is wrong. Adn then you state directly that you know we are wrong so you have no need to even question anything. A double standard, don’t you think.

    You also contradict yourself. If it is all God, and nothing that I or you do can have any effect on my salvation than why would I even need to hear the word of God? More importantly, what would your sharing of the word do, as nothing you do can have any effect?
    Are you saying that by you declaring the word to me you make it possible for God to choose me?

    JBR

    I have rejected nothing, and your continual twisitng of my words and LDS doctrine only reflects poorly on you.

    What do you learn from the story of Abraham and Isaac? What do you see? Do you see a man who, after having direct communication with God and receiving a command, goes to the previously reveal word to make sure that he can trust God? That is the man you are, and the man you are promoting.

    But when I read this story I see something very different. I see a man who has such faith in God that not only is he able to recognize God when he comes to him, but he is willing to sacrifice his beloved son at the order of God. Here is a man who is well aquainted with the gospel, who knows that God has commanded us not to kill; and beyond that, knows that God had promised that it was through Isaac that the blessings would be fulfilled. To kill Isaac not only goes against the commands of God, but destroys the very promises he made. But God commanded it, and so Abraham obeyed, trusting in God, knowing that God would not give such a command without reason, and that he was able to make all things possible. For this faith, as proved by his actions, Abraham was praised.

    So, are you going to be what you promote; the man who questions God himself in favor of the Bible? Or are you going to be of the Faith of Abraham, and do what God commands, regardless of what you read in the Bible?
    I hope to be like Abraham.

    KENT

    Let me ask a clarifying question: Once a person is saved, is there any way for them to loose their salvaiton?

  126. June 25, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Shem said: “You also contradict yourself. If it is all God, and nothing that I or you do can have any effect on my salvation than why would I even need to hear the word of God? More importantly, what would your sharing of the word do, as nothing you do can have any effect?
    Are you saying that by you declaring the word to me you make it possible for God to choose me?”

    Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”

    1 Corinthians 12:3 “…no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”

  127. 127 choosethechrist
    June 25, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    “What does the blood atonement do for the mormon and at what point does it take effect?”

    I should have been more specific, in this case I was meaning the blood atonement of Christ.
    and are you saying then that the Hebrews were not forgiven of their sins until Christ shed his blood?

  128. 128 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 8:42 am

    I am not sure that we can lose our salvation but it is a wise thing to not tempt the Lord our God by wantonly sinning.

    As far as God allowing Satan to exist and Him using even something or someone, such as Satan who is bad, for His purposes, yes good can come of it but doing bad things is not what God wants from anyone and it isn’t His plans for us but we have the free will to mess things up. But God does in effect destroy Satan in the end though when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

    So people have the free will to believe lies such as the fall of mankind was a good thing, that Adam and Eve wouldn’t have know how to procreate unless the fall happened, and is something that is to be celebrated.

    This idea that we can’t kinow what bad is until we know what good is humanisitic hogwash that is incorporated into Mormonism and it isn’t biblical at all.

    Eve knew it was wrong to not eat of the forbidden fruit, it was instilled in her, otherwise she would not have questioned Satan about it by telling him God told them not to do so. She somehow knew it was wrong to disobey
    God but she allowed herself to be fooled by Satan and she did so anyway.

    Once and for all Adam and Eve would have had children if they had remained in the Garden because God told them to do so and He didn’t tell them to disobey Him in order to do so. 1. There is no such thing as pre existant spirit children who needed bodies to go into. 2. and if anyone believes that the fall was a good thing, then they should tell that to the young widow who recently lost her husband to brain cancer as the fall is what brought on her angish of losing her husband who was only 32 years old and the fall is why she must now raise two small children without him by her side. Also the fall is what brought on all the pain and suffering that he went through in the last year of his life.

    By the way, the young widow and her husband are not hypothetical examples, they are actual people I have met.

    God’s plan was for us to remain in the garden and never leave His presence in the first place as we were not supposed to go through all the pain and suffering that the world has had to offer ever since the fall took place.

    After all isn’t returning to his presence, Mormons strive to do so and we believe we will already return there by our belief in Jesus and what He did by dying and rising again on the third day, something we all want? So we wouldn’t have ever had to leave Him if the fall had not happened.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  129. 129 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 11:35 am

    I said, “This idea that we can’t know what bad is until we know what good is humanisitic hogwash that is incorporated into Mormonism and it isn’t biblical at all.” I think that would be better stated if it was we can’t know what good is unless we know what bad is first, but either way, it is humanistic dualism which isn’t biblical. We can know what good is by what God says good is and we can know what bad is by what God says bad is.

  130. 130 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Shem said: “You also contradict yourself. If it is all God, and nothing that I or you do can have any effect on my salvation than why would I even need to hear the word of God? More importantly, what would your sharing of the word do, as nothing you do can have any effect?
    Are you saying that by you declaring the word to me you make it possible for God to choose me?”

    Echo quoted from the Bible.

    Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”

    1 Corinthians 12:3 “…no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”

    I would like to add:

    Isaiah 55:10-11
    10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
    And do not return there,
    But water the earth,
    And make it bring forth and bud,
    That it may give seed to the sower
    And bread to the eater,
    11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

    So faith comes by hearing the word, that is why we tell people what the word says, and it is the Holy Spirit that brings people to Christ, not us. There is only one plan for salvaton, the only one there has ever been, and it is Jesus dying on the cross to save us, sinners who cannot ever do anything to save ourselves, and by His rising again on the third day. So yes Seth, it is the word of God that brings people to faith by the Holy Spirit.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  131. 131 shematwater
    June 26, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    ECHO

    You can quote the Bible all you want, but it does nothing to help your doctrine. In fact it contradicts it, as I have explained.
    You will notice that I never once denied that faith comes from hearing the word. I believe it does. The problem is that if it does then whoever is declaring the word is taking part in the salvation of those who accept it. This, then, is a contradiction of your continued assertian that we can have no effect on our salvation, or the salvation of others.
    Simply put, if it is all Christ then he has no need of you to declare his word; and even when you do declare it doing so has no effect, making it a pointless endevor, and thus destroying the entire reason to have this blog.
    If you declaring the word has an effect on my salvation than it is not all Christ; if it is all Christ than you declaring the word has no effect, and what you do is pointless (as is the great commission to preach the gospel).

    KENT

    I know Echo quoted the Bible, but, as I pointed out, it does nothing to prove what he is trying to prove.

    So, let me ask the question again, and maybe you can answer it: Does you declaring the word make my salvation possible (or even have any effect).

    CHOOSE

    “are you saying then that the Hebrews were not forgiven of their sins until Christ shed his blood?”

    Thank you for the clarification.
    No this is not what I am saying. I am saying that because it was known that Christ would perform this atonement in the future they were able to be saved in their life times, if they obeyed the commands of God.
    In other words, God forgave them of their sins at that time on the assurance that Christ would perform the needed atonement.
    Now, the rewards were not given until after the atonement, because Christ had to be the first to be resurrected. Thus the righteous dead waited as spirits in Paradise until Christ had performed his work and “proclaim liberty to the captives” (Isaiah 61: 1) who waited for the promised blessing of resurrection. But those righteous spirits had been forgiven of their sins already. They did not wait for this forgiveness, only for the promised blessings that the atonement would bring.

  132. 132 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    If you are saying that i need to hear the word of God from someone in order for God to choose me, then whomever i hear it from is directly affecting my salvation. On top of that, there are MANY that have heard the word of God and are not saved. So hearing alone does not seem to be the only requirement, or all of these other people would be saved as well.

    Kent, I think i asked you quite a while back if you believed in once saved always saved. Glad to see where you actually stand in this matter. I hate to tell you this, but there are things we can do to lose our salvation. I have posted these before. If you dont believe them, you are welcome to continue in your once save always saved thought process, but it was directly from the Bible that i quoted these things.

    Kent said “We can know what good is by what God says good is and we can know what bad is by what God says bad is.”
    God never said the fruit was bad. He said it was forbidden. Most parents i know forbid their children to have sex before they leave the parents house. Sex is not bad, but it is forbidden. Adam and Eve clearly did not know good from evil prior to eating said fruit, or God would not have said “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:” We dont even know if they understood the fulness of the power of God, or the power Satan has. We make all kinds of assumptions about their lives and understanding it when we have a whopping 2 chapters about their lives prior to falling is difficult at best, utterly incomprehensible at worst. We absolutely know very little here.

    And yes Kent, i would be willing to tell that widow her husbands death was a great thing! ESPECIALLY if he believed in Christ. I am not heartless. I cried at my father’s funeral (he died at a meager 46). My wife took it harder than i did, and as best i could i tried to get her to stop taking it so hard. It is difficult when a loved one is lost, especially one you turn to as often as we did to him. I was glad he had died for several reasons. 1. He had cancer, and was in horrible pain every day. 2. This world is full of crap no person should ever have to deal with. By dying, he was released from this world. He was not LDS, but this did not keep him from heaven. He knew Christ, and i was so happy for him. I look forward to the day anyone I know that believes in Christ dies. Perhaps i look at it sort of romantically, but i like to think that on that day, they actually get to meet Christ, the one they have believed in for so long. They dont believe in Christ? Well, that was their choice. All i can say to that is i hope they dont end up in hell over it. Only God knows if a person truly did or did not believe…

  133. June 26, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    Shem said: “You can quote the Bible all you want, but it does nothing to help your doctrine. In fact it contradicts it, as I have explained. You will notice that I never once denied that faith comes from hearing the word. I believe it does. The problem is that if it does then whoever is declaring the word is taking part in the salvation of those who accept it. This, then, is a contradiction of your continued assertian that we can have no effect on our salvation, or the salvation of others. Simply put, if it is all Christ then he has no need of you to declare his word; and even when you do declare it doing so has no effect, making it a pointless endevor, and thus destroying the entire reason to have this blog. If you declaring the word has an effect on my salvation than it is not all Christ; if it is all Christ than you declaring the word has no effect, and what you do is pointless (as is the great commission to preach the gospel). ”

    So you don’t believe in salvation through Christ alone yourself even though earlier you said you did. Because if you believe that you take part in the salvation of others then you don’t believe in salvation through Christ alone.

  134. June 26, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Josh, for your information, Kent is not a Lutheran. Lutheran’s don’t believe in once saved always saved.

    Josh said: “God never said the fruit was bad…Most parents i know forbid their children to have sex before they leave the parents house. Sex is not bad, but it is forbidden”

    Is is bad for kids to have sex before they leave the parents house or before they are married?

    Would you celebrate your children having sex before marriage?

  135. 135 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Josh said, “And yes Kent, i would be willing to tell that widow her husbands death was a great thing! ESPECIALLY if he believed in Christ. I am not heartless. I cried at my father’s funeral (he died at a meager 46). My wife took it harder than i did, and as best i could i tried to get her to stop taking it so hard. It is difficult when a loved one is lost, especially one you turn to as often as we did to him. I was glad he had died for several reasons. 1. He had cancer, and was in horrible pain every day. 2. This world is full of crap no person should ever have to deal with. By dying, he was released from this world. He was not LDS, but this did not keep him from heaven. He knew Christ, and i was so happy for him. I look forward to the day anyone I know that believes in Christ dies. Perhaps i look at it sort of romantically, but i like to think that on that day, they actually get to meet Christ, the one they have believed in for so long. They dont believe in Christ? Well, that was their choice. All i can say to that is i hope they dont end up in hell over it. Only God knows if a person truly did or did not believe…”

    Josh, yes, that widow’s husband was a believer in Christ, he has eternal life now, not only with Jesus but in the mansion where Heavenly Father and Jesus are, because of this and he doesn’t have to progress to be there. But the heartache she is now feeling and the pain and suffering he went through in the last year of his life are not a good thing that, if humanity had never left the garden, he would have never had to go through. But at least she can take comfort that she, a believer in Christ also, will see her husband again and, no, she doesn’t need any temple marriage in any Mormon temple to do so as that has nothing to do with her eternal life in the mansion where Heavenly Father and Jesus are as she is sealed by something much better, by the blood of Jesus, so she already is guaranteed eternal life by Jesus dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    The same thing with your father, he didn’t have to go through all the pain and suffering he went through and the grief your family went through because the fall happened and my Father too, who also died of cancer, who was 62 years old at the time. So no the fall of mankind is not a good thing to be celebrated.

    The fall of mankind being needed for non existant spirit children to have bodies to go into is a lie straight from the devil himself.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  136. 136 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    I was originally baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran but I now attend a non denominational evangelical church. But I don’t identify with one particular church but with Jesus Christ Himself as taught in the Bible.

    Whether we can lose our salvation of not? I really don’t know one way or the other if we can but whatever the the case is I am not going to let it put a hedge between my Lutheran brothers and sisters as we are one in Christ. Just as we are one in Christ with Methodists, Baptists, people from non denominational churches, etc. All of us believe that we are saved by grace and that grace is not after all we can do but is a free gift from God. There is a song that says, “nothing but the blood of Jesus,” and that about sums it up.

    One interesting statement was made by the pastor at the Lutheran Church I used to attend, he said, “I am a Christian first and a Lutheran second.”

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  137. 137 Kent
    June 26, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Shem said, “You can quote the Bible all you want, but it does nothing to help your doctrine. In fact it contradicts it, as I have explained. You will notice that I never once denied that faith comes from hearing the word. I believe it does. The problem is that if it does then whoever is declaring the word is taking part in the salvation of those who accept it. This, then, is a contradiction of your continued assertian that we can have no effect on our salvation, or the salvation of others. Simply put, if it is all Christ then he has no need of you to declare his word; and even when you do declare it doing so has no effect, making it a pointless endevor, and thus destroying the entire reason to have this blog. If you declaring the word has an effect on my salvation than it is not all Christ; if it is all Christ than you declaring the word has no effect, and what you do is pointless (as is the great commission to preach the gospel). ”

    Jesus Christ is the word.

    John 1:1-4

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  138. 138 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    I understand Kent is not Lutheran. Perhaps you were making this point merely to separate yourself from that doctrine. Anyway….

    The question i do ask to Lutherans though goes like this… You believe you have no part on your initial “being saved”, yet claim it can be lost. If it is the will of God that you be saved, how can a man hope to change the immutable will of God? How can he lose what God Himself wills him to have? Man doesnt will to be saved initially, right? Yet God does it anyway, right? How does this ever change through mans life? If you believe your salvation is ONLY dependent on God, then by default you must believe in once saved always saved, which is not taught in the Bible.

  139. 139 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Kent, i believe you are missing both Shem’s and my point. Free will either is or isnt. If it is only on God, then nothing, NOTHING any person EVER does has an affect on my eternal soul. If hearing the word is a prerequisite to being saved, then man must do something for man to be saved. This takes from God.

    On a personal note, you were once Lutheran, and now believe a person has free will in these matters. May i ask what changed your mind on this subject, as this seems a pretty substantial matter?

    What you are trying to teach IS different from what Mark and Echo are trying to teach. You “are giving Mormons hope,” where as they are laughing in our faces. You are offering a chance at heaven, where as they are saying “I know i am saved, and you cant do anything to save yourself. Have fun in hell.” Obviously it is not in those exact words, but that is the sentiment if they truly believe we have no say in the matter. You are no longer a Lutheran for a reason, and that reason is not trivial.

  140. 140 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Mormons are Christian in that they believe Christ has died for us. Christ has PREPARED A WAY for us to return to heaven. No person can prepare this way for themselves. We must accept the way that Christ has prepared for us. All the other stuff does not matter when discussing “Christian” or “non-Christian.” We believe in Christ. End of story there. We should be accepted just as any other person that states they believe in Christ. We separate ourselves in claiming the correct path. Each and every denomination claims this, or there would be no different denominations.

  141. June 26, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Josh said: “If it is the will of God that you be saved, how can a man hope to change the immutable will of God?”

    God wants all mankind to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4) Faith comes from hearing the message. (Rom 10:17) No one can say “Jesus is Lord” without the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3) But the Holy Spirit can be resisted. (Acts 7:51)

    God alone gives us what we need to “believe” and be “willing”. God also allows us to continue to be unwilling. (Math 23:37)

    Does that answer all of your questions?

  142. 142 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Is is bad for kids to have sex before they leave the parents house or before they are married?
    Would you celebrate your children having sex before marriage?

    Bad is a subjective terms in these matters. I know many women that have had children before leaving there parents house. Each of these claim that the child was the best thing to ever come into their lives. Having the child beings its own consequences. These can be viewed as bad, but are not in themselves bad or evil. Having a child prevents a lot of people from being able to go to college. Is not going to college evil? Is not being able to make enough money to afford a car evil? Where people in the time prior to now evil for marrying young? I know historically, people married (and consummated said marriage) at around age 12. Our times are different, not evil. The human body is (generally) ready for children at this age. Is it evil to do what the body is ready to do?

    Would i celebrate this? I dont know. I have not had to consider this yet. My children are 4 and 2. Would i kick them out of the family? Definitely not. Would the choice have consequences? Definitely. Sex is a part of life. We try to have our children hold off on it for BETTER consequences.

    In this same way, we do not know if God would have eventually changed his mind with regard to eating the fruit of the tree of G&E. We do not know if this was time sensitive, just as telling your kids not to have sex is. We can only look at the outcome as it happened, and not as it would have happened.

  143. June 26, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Josh said: “What you are trying to teach IS different from what Mark and Echo are trying to teach. You “are giving Mormons hope,” where as they are laughing in our faces. You are offering a chance at heaven, where as they are saying “I know i am saved, and you cant do anything to save yourself. Have fun in hell.” Obviously it is not in those exact words, but that is the sentiment if they truly believe we have no say in the matter. You are no longer a Lutheran for a reason, and that reason is not trivial.”

    We aren’t laughing in anyone’s face.
    We aren’t saying Mormons can’t be saved.
    We are saying that Mormons, who die believing in the Mormon Gospel will not be saved. That doesn’t make us laugh, that makes us feel very sad and concerned for Mormons.

  144. 144 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    God alone gives us what we need to “believe” and be “willing”. God also allows us to continue to be unwilling. (Math 23:37)

    This is a choice by mankind regarding his own salvation. The choice is given to us by God. This does not make it any less a choice. Man CHOOSES to be willing or unwilling. How do you not see this?

  145. June 26, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Josh said: “We believe in Christ. End of story there.”

    You believe in a different Christ. Only one Christ is the Savior of mankind which is why it’s vital to believe in the one true Jesus. Mormons are on the wrong airplane, an airplane not scheduled to arrive in Heaven.

  146. 146 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    You are not offering a way to change anything Echo. You are saying exactly the opposite. You are saying there is no way for us to affect our salvation. You are saying we are doomed. If nothing we do affects our salvation, then believing the LDS way does not affect my salvation.

  147. June 26, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Josh said: “This is a choice by mankind regarding his own salvation. The choice is given to us by God. This does not make it any less a choice. Man CHOOSES to be willing or unwilling. How do you not see this?”

    God gives us the ability to be willing so that’s nothing we can take credit for. He doesn’t give us the ability to be unwilling, that comes naturally to us.

  148. 148 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    How is my Christ different Echo? Because we take what he said more literally? Because we believe (just like every denomination) that Christ has given us a certain path that we must follow? Because we believe in a pre-mortal existence, which is perfectly in line with the Bible? Because we believe that Christ and Lucifer were brothers? You and i will be brothers with Christ when we die in this same way. You have admitted that we will be brothers, yet you deny Lucifer (Satan) this same thing. How is our Christ different from yours?

  149. June 26, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Josh said: “You are not offering a way to change anything Echo. You are saying exactly the opposite. You are saying there is no way for us to affect our salvation. You are saying we are doomed. If nothing we do affects our salvation, then believing the LDS way does not affect my salvation.”

    I gotta run, I will respond to this later. :)

  150. June 26, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    Josh said: “How is my Christ different Echo? Because we take what he said more literally? Because we believe (just like every denomination) that Christ has given us a certain path that we must follow? Because we believe in a pre-mortal existence, which is perfectly in line with the Bible? Because we believe that Christ and Lucifer were brothers? You and i will be brothers with Christ when we die in this same way. You have admitted that we will be brothers, yet you deny Lucifer (Satan) this same thing. How is our Christ different from yours?”

    I will respond to this later as well. I gotta run, I got stuff that needs to get done.

  151. 151 joshtried
    June 26, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    God also allows us to continue to be unwilling
    He doesn’t give us the ability to be unwilling

    Which is it echo?

  152. 152 choosethechrist
    June 26, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    Shem said, But those righteous spirits had been forgiven of their sins already. They did not wait for this forgiveness, only for the promised blessings that the atonement would bring.

    Could you clarify what the promised blessings of the atonement are?

  153. June 27, 2012 at 1:31 am

    Josh said: “You are not offering a way to change anything Echo. You are saying exactly the opposite. You are saying there is no way for us to affect our salvation. You are saying we are doomed. If nothing we do affects our salvation, then believing the LDS way does not affect my salvation.”

    Right now as it stands, you are doomed if you believe the LDS Gospel because the LDS Gospel is a false Gospel. Through the true Gospel, God creates faith in you. You have the capability to resist that to your own peril.

    Josh said: ““How is my Christ different Echo? Because we take what he said more literally? Because we believe (just like every denomination) that Christ has given us a certain path that we must follow? Because we believe in a pre-mortal existence, which is perfectly in line with the Bible? Because we believe that Christ and Lucifer were brothers? You and i will be brothers with Christ when we die in this same way. You have admitted that we will be brothers, yet you deny Lucifer (Satan) this same thing. How is our Christ different from yours?”

    The most important difference(and there are many important differences) is that your Christ teaches a different Gospel. I have not stated that we are brothers with Christ, you must be confusing me with someone else.

    “Echo said: God also allows us to continue to be unwilling. He doesn’t give us the ability to be unwilling”

    Josh replied: “Which is it echo?”

    These aren’t contradictory Josh.

  154. 154 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 2:11 am

    God gives us everything, including this ability. Then, he allows it to continue. (and yes, in order for us to continue , he must give us the ability. how can he control what he does not have power over?) My point was that there is a choice here. He allows you to be willing and unwilling. You then have the CHOICE. Therefore… there is something you must do in order to be saved. This isnt my imagining something to prove my point, this is your quote from the Bible stating we CAN be either. If we CAN be either, then we must choose one. I do not say when that choice must happen, only that it must, if by no other way than a default choice by making none at all.

  155. 155 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 2:56 am

    The most important difference(and there are many important differences) is that your Christ teaches a different Gospel.

    I see only a difference in point of view from you and me Echo. 98% of the things you see wrong with our doctrine we have found for you a place in the Bible where it was practiced. You simply choose to discount what we place before you, because we are already seen as wrong. A great example of this is the question of free will. You have two different CHRISTIANS saying something different. One says free will, the other says no choice. One of those agree with LDS doctrine, the other does not. Polygamy is prescribed under certain circumstances in the Bible. You can find CHRISTIANS debating works or no works. One of those agrees with LDS. You see a problem with our authority to perform ordinances… Yet Catholics hold an authority as well… Even in your Lutheran Church, when was the last time you saw a “lay member” perform a baptism? You see a problem with sealings… i see whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. You see a problem with us calling LUCIFER the brother of Christ, i see Ephesians 1:4&5 “In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (if we are sons, and Jesus is the son of God, that would make us brothers… Why would Lucifer have not been adopted if he was “the enlightened one”?)

    I havent found a different gospel preached. I have found you wanting a different gospel preached. I have found you trying in any way you can to discredit our beliefs. The problem is, our beliefs are strengthened by biblical accounts. We have “fought” this battle time and time again. Either the Bible is open to a certain degree of interpretation to all, or to none. You cant have it both ways, saying Methodists, and Baptists, and Calvanists are okay, and we are not, when basically we take a little from each of these. Every single argument you have presented, i can find a non LDS religion that you are okay with that practices the same thing.

    I have already told you what differs, and how to solve this puzzle, or win this battle, or however you want to look at it. Prove us wrong in a prophecy. Make Joseph Smith a False Prophet and anything that “Christ” has told him falls away by default. Then, there is no need at all for this blog. You just post the false prophecy along with the warning from the Bible regarding false prophets and have to tell them, and WHAM, every single LDS person (that actually follows Christ) will stop being LDS. Anything else you throw out there is going to be returned in the same manner it has been, with us proving it through the Bible and you denying it should be interpreted in such a way.

  156. June 27, 2012 at 3:17 am

    Josh, you have misunderstood. We don’t have a choice prior to and in our conversion. We can make choices after conversion. A baby doesn’t choose to be born, but a baby makes choices after they are born.
    Conversion is being born again.

  157. June 27, 2012 at 3:25 am

    Josh said: “I have already told you what differs, and how to solve this puzzle, or win this battle, or however you want to look at it. Prove us wrong in a prophecy”

    I am still reading Josh. I also own “History of the Church~Joseph Smith Period 1” which contains some information about Zion as well which I am reading along with D & C.

  158. 158 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 3:54 am

    A baby doesn’t choose to be born

    Depending on how far you want to take this analogy, i would say that we have chosen to be born (at least on earth) when we chose to accept Christs plan of salvation. By rejecting it, you chose not to be born…
    To go farther back, i would not say that we had a role in God creating us.

    I am still reading Josh

    When i say these things, Echo, you are one of many i am speaking to. At minimum, there are 3 other people on this thread that could help speed this process up. You have Choose, JBR, and Kent. There is also Mark, but I do understand he is supposed to be busy more often than not. Now, i am not really open to going at this all willy nilly like, throwing accusations around, so perhaps it is best for only one person at a time to be doing this. Structure is the best thing for this. One thing that could be done is to open each “prophesy” up as a topic, and debate from there. This would honestly be the quickest, but i dont foresee this happening either… All that i ask in return is when each prophesy is shown to not be false, that yall stop calling JS a false prophet. I am not even demanding you join my religion. I am not demanding you accept him as a prophet (though admittedly, that is part of the goal here). If anyone here openly bashes other religions in the same way, then fine, dont prove JS false and bash away. If you dont bash other religions, then stop bashing mine until you have irrevocable proof.

  159. 159 choosethechrist
    June 27, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Josh said, “If you dont bash other religions, then stop bashing mine until you have irrevocable proof.”

    Interesting statement. If your faith had any strength at all, you would be able to get past the thought that this is about us being Mormon hating bashers which has been emphasized time and time again, but has fallen on deaf ears.

    Maybe you need to take a look at this and decide who the real martyrs are: http://www.persecution.com/.

    You seem to be clear on our stand regarding how one is saved and our stand on damnation. I’m not going to stop presenting the Biblical gospel and contrasting it with Mormon doctrine because the stakes are too high. I focus on Mormonism because I come from a long, long, long line of Mormons and because I am surrounded by them everyday. These are people that I care about very much and I am not real big on the idea of watching people who are important to me burn for eternity. I take this VERY seriously! It is not OK to claim to be a Christian and then sit back and say oh well, all roads lead to God, whatever someone wants to believe is perfectly fine, lets not worry about souls lest we offend someone with what we have accepted as truth.

    Maybe you should stop and ask yourself why you are feeling so picked on and why so many people are trying to get you to wake up!

    You have also been given proof regarding the falsehood of JS being a prophet, but you refuse to see it. In fact, someone here told me there was no amount of evidence in the world that would or could change his mind.

    “One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, “I don’t care what evidence you show me, I will always believe,” then that person’s faith is not rooted in reality.” ~ Matt Slick

    Show me you WANT the irrevocable proof and I will be more than happy to provide it as always!

    You won’t see me curl up into a ball when some athiest tries to come at me. I sure am not going to LET them attack or bash me because it’s a seed planting, soul saving, conversion opportunity in the making!

    Put on your big boy pants, take your trike out of the ditch, and cowboy up! Maybe you should be less concerned about defending yourself, your beliefs, your prophet, and your church and start showing your concern for us since you believe your church provides the only route to God in spite of Jesus Christ himself telling you that Jesus Christ is the only route to God. Where’s your concern for my soul “brother”? Not seeing it.

    By the way, if you would like some examples of Mormon Christian “bashing”, I would be more than happy to provide those for you.

    Your Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. Our Jesus CREATED Lucifer. I find it disturbing that you see nothing wrong with that!

  160. 160 choosethechrist
    June 27, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Matthew 1:21
    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

  161. June 27, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Josh,

    Our deep love for Mormons compels us to do what we do.

    If you saw someone pour a glass of “milk and poison” and then give that glass to someone you loved to drink, you would do everything you possibly can in order to keep your loved one from drinking that deadly drink.

  162. 162 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    You have also been given proof regarding the falsehood of JS being a prophet, but you refuse to see it. In fact, someone here told me there was no amount of evidence in the world that would or could change his mind.

    Any “proof” you have given, i have refuted. Which is why i offered the challenge to any that will take it up regarding finding a truly false prophecy. THREE months ago, Echo began studying ONE prophecy. That alone should tell you something. And it may have been me that said no amount of evidence, though i doubt it. The problem is how it is presented. If you give me what you claim to be 10 false prophecies, and i do a quick read through on 2 and prove them to be true, i am honestly going to stop reading. If you cant present your argument with credibility, why am i going to continue looking? By the 3rd i get to and prove again is correct, i have no reason to believe any of them were actually research out. Would you believe a crackhead on the street that told you he had figured out sustainable fusion? What if he told you he had a rocket ship to mars? Would you believe NASA if they said they had a rocket ship to mars?

    Echo, if the LDS religion is the only that you see as poison, there is something seriously wrong with your vision. This is my point. If you want to call multiple religions poison, then by all means label them. A great example of this is you not arguing against Kent when he stated we had free will. Heaven forbid if i do it, but for him you’ll allow it?

    As i see things, you are afraid of what you dont understand. In the event that you cannot truly prove one of Joseph Smith”s prophecies wrong, what will you have left? I am willing to face this, I am willing to accept your findings when presented appropriately and searched out appropriately (though admittedly, i would retrace your steps to make sure i come to the same conclusion). In the event the conclusion was correct, i would take the information to every LDS person i know and show them.

    Let me ask you this though. Why in the 180 years that this church has been around, has no one came out with this proof? It seems to me if any person really cared about the LDS in the ways yall state you do, that this would be the way that they would prove us wrong. A false prophet that started it all, and everything falls. If there was such a prophecy, you dont think someone would have called us on it by now? There have been many books written to both uplift and to bash the LDS Church. Why not study each prophecy and find just one that is false? You think anyone that truly loves Christ and knows the warnings of the Bible regarding false prophets would not listen when one was proven false? I know I would, and i would make it my life showing others this one singular thing. Nothing else would need to matter. Nothing at all.

  163. 163 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Your Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. Our Jesus CREATED Lucifer. I find it disturbing that you see nothing wrong with that!

    Jesus created us too, right? We are to be sons of GOD THROUGH JESUS, right? Why does Lucifer who was supposed to be so great an angel not receive this same blessing?

  164. 164 Kent
    June 27, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Josh said, “If you dont bash other religions, then stop bashing mine until you have irrevocable proof.”

    I find it ironic that a Mormon would take offense of us being critical of Mormonism when Mormonism was founded on, in effect, bashing all other churches.

    Joseph Smith, History, from Pearl of Great Price says, 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

    19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

    Maybe, in practice now the Mormon Church says that other churches have partial truth but are missing the whole truth that the Mormon Church claims they alone have, but wrong means wrong and abomination means abomination. So there is no truth, even partial truth, in wrong, and there is no truth, even partial truth, in abomination. Also, Joseph Smith says that God told him all of the processers of the churches were corrupt and corrupt means corrupt and corruption as well has no truth in it.

    It seems that the Mormon Church is now playing a game of politcal correctness when they say our churches have truth but not the whole truth that Mormons have. But again, either all of our churches have truth or they are all wrong are an abomination in God’s sight, and are all corrupt, as Joseph Smith says God told him.

  165. 165 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    I have given you my evidence of (at minimum) how the Bible is corrupt one way or the other. You have decided to ignore it. I personally do not claim to understand which parts are corrupt, and which arent. I simply claim by the evidence at hand in the Bible that it is so.

    I have asked you to prove that JS lied in a prophecy, or stop calling him a false prophet. Bashing is done to the effect of it not mattering whether you are right or not. It is also done to one while blatantly ignoring others, like Echo ignoring Kent when he says we have free will. Echo is obviously against this premise, but complete allows it from someone that is “on his side.” I have said before, and will probably say again, in total, if you pull every other religion, you can probably come out with the exact same thing the LDS teach (minus maybe temple work). How exactly is it okay to accept other religions when they have the same parts that we have, but not accept them when the sum of the parts are added together? I have asked you to accept we worship the same Jesus, and you claim we dont, but cant offer anything that substantially differs other than perspective of the gospel, which every single denomination in the world has differently.

  166. 166 Kent
    June 27, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    choosethechrist said, “Your Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. Our Jesus CREATED Lucifer. I find it disturbing that you see nothing wrong with that!”

    joshtried answered, “Jesus created us too, right? We are to be sons of GOD THROUGH JESUS, right? Why does Lucifer who was supposed to be so great an angel not receive this same blessing?”

    Lucifer, who is now the devil after his rebellion against God, gets and deserves no blessing. Shown here in the next paragraph from Revelation 20 is what he gets and rightly so.

    Revelation 20:10

    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  167. 167 shematwater
    June 27, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    CHOOSE

    “Your Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. Our Jesus CREATED Lucifer. I find it disturbing that you see nothing wrong with that!”

    In other words, your God created evil, while our God exists to oppose it.

    “Could you clarify what the promised blessings of the atonement are?”

    Immortality and Eternal Life. The one cannot be gained without the other, and since no one was resurrected before Christ, no one was immortal before Christ, and thus no one had eternal life before Christ. They had the promise of Eternal life, and knew that they would receive it when the appointed time came, but they did not have it until after the Atonement was completed. That is why they are described by Isaiah as being captives, for living without a body in a spirit state for so long is a captivity to the righteous.

    “if you would like some examples of Mormon Christian “bashing”, I would be more than happy to provide those for you.”
    A few odd quotes about the error of general Christianity is not the same as what Josh is talking about.
    Show us a website that is set up by Mormons for the sole purpose of tearing down the doctrine of another faith.
    Show us where a ministry is set up for the purpose of spending hours on end searching every single microbe of writing ever preserved from the leaders of another church so that a Mormon can throw the most obscure references out at rapid fire, knowing full well that those things mean very little.
    Show us where there is any group of Mormons, sanctioned by their religion, that is focusing on a single denomination for the purpose of destroying it.
    This is the bashing and the persecution that we are talking about. You will not find an LDS website like this one, or the thousands of other websites out there just like it.

    ECHO

    If we have no choice in our initial conversion than how is your declaring the world going effect that conversion.

    You know, Josh is right. You may dress things up in pretty words, but all you are really saying is that we are damned because God has not chosen us. You may express your wish that he would choose us, but since you have said nothing we do can effect this choice you have given no hope; only despair.

    Simply put, according to your doctrine: Since I have no free will until I am chosen by God then it is pointless for me to listen to you or really do anything. I might as well engage in all forms of sin, as nothing matters until I am chosen.

    “He doesn’t give us the ability to be unwilling”

    If unwillingness is part of our nature, and God created us, then he most certainly did give us the ability to be unwilling, because that is how he made us.

    “So you don’t believe in salvation through Christ alone yourself even though earlier you said you did.”

    I don’t recall ever saying this. I said that it is only the Blood of Christ that gives salvation, but I do not recall saying we have no part. In fact I recall stating clearly that Choose gave the best quote to explain it all, if you care to scroll back up and look.
    To sum it up: The blood of Christ provides the energy that powers the generators of salvation. It is the only thing that can do so. However, it flows to us from Christ, and we are responsible for keeping the pipes clear so that it can flow. When we sin we clog the pipes; when we repent we clean them. Thus we work out our salvation, as Paul directed the Philippians to do, but always acknowledge that nothing we do has any actual effect on the generators of salvation.
    Thus, we actively choose to allow that power to work in our lives. It is our choice that allows it to happen, but it is the power of Christ, and only Christ that actually causes it to happen.
    Try not to misquote me.

  168. 168 joshtried
    June 27, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    I am not asking about after his rebellion. I am saying before the rebellion he would most likely have been considered a brother. Lucifer was not created and instantly rebelled. If this was the case, i doubt he would have ever been called Lucifer. He would have been called Satan to begin with. In trying to deny a premortal existence, many things are confused. Satan could not have taken with him a third of the host of heaven on everyones first day or creation, this doesnt make sense. It was most likely a great amount of time.

  169. 169 Kent
    June 27, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Josh, actually I think what Echo believes and what I believe are in synch. As when I say that we can choose to believe in Christ, I believe it is by choosing not to reject the true gospel of the Bible and choosing to believe another gospel such as, for example, as taught by the Mormon Church or another group such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or by out and out rejecting a belief in God at all. I needed to clarify this.

    Yes, there are Christian churches that teach we can accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, we can choose to believe in Him, but, really, we all believe that true faith is all about what Jesus did by dying on the cross, to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves, and by His rising again on the third day and that it is not at all about progressing to some day, if we are worthy, to have eternal life. So we all believe we have eternal life freely given to us by our faith in Christ and it is by grace and it is not after all we can do.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  170. June 27, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Josh said: “Let me ask you this though. Why in the 180 years that this church has been around, has no one came out with this proof?”

    It is indeed a difficult Endeavour. Not hard to understand when considering the fact that Joseph Smith’s Revelations have been changed over the years so that much has been added, much has been deleted from them. And since the LDS church puts forth every effort to keep outsiders from getting inside information about or from the originals, the task is no easy task. The LDS Church doctors much documentation. What we have to deal with now is the doctored and modified texts which you claim today are Joseph’s revelations. Therefore it takes a lot of time to prove to a Mormon that Joseph Smith is a false Prophet when the Mormon Church works equally hard to cover everything up.

    Here is a sampling of changes made to Joseph Smith’s Revelations…

    D & C 3:9-20…

    D & C 5:1-11…

    D & C 5:11-22…

    D & C 5:22-30

    D & C 7:1-8…

    D & C 8:1-10…

    D & C 10:1-12

    D & C 10:12-27

    D & C 10:28-38…

    D & C 18:2-11

    D & C 19: 7-20

    D & C 20:1-12

    D& C 20:12-25

    D & C 20:26-35

    D & C 20:35-48

    D & C 20:49-68

    D & C 20:68-76

    D & C 25:1-11

    D & C 27

    D & C 42:24-36

    D & C 42:36-48

    D & C 42:62-73

    D & C 42

    D & C 42:82-93,74

    Evening and Morning Star March 1833 Compare D & C 88:127-141

    Evening and Morning Star Oct 1832 Compare D & C 68

    and on and on and on…

    As I see things Josh, you are afraid of what you don’t understand. Don’t be afraid Josh, we are here to help you.

  171. June 28, 2012 at 2:34 am

    Shem,

    You have willfully resisted God’s word for at least two years now and hardened your own heart more and more against it. If you fall into despair, that would truly be your own fault. It’s not like you haven’t been ‘called’ since God saw to it that you got onto this blog two years ago for a reason. Tragically, due to your own resistance of the truth, you are rejecting his call.

  172. 172 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 5:31 am

    “As I see things Josh, you are afraid of what you don’t understand. Don’t be afraid Josh, we are here to help you.”

    How exactly am i afraid? i am asking you to prove it. If i was afraid, id be sitting in a corner not telling you how to defeat me. I am aware there have been changes to the BoM. I am sure that there have been changes to the Bible. You seem to believe the Bible well enough, and i seem to believe the BoM well enough. When you are willing to completely throw out the Bible because it has had a single change, I will throw out the BoM over the same. Until that point, we are both going to have to work with what we have.

  173. 173 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 5:35 am

    “You have willfully resisted God’s word for at least two years now.”

    I find this hard to comprehend coming from you Echo. Do we have a choice in our salvation or not? You are sending some very mixed signals recently. I honestly dont know where you stand on this issue any more. You say we cant effect it, but then you say it is because of Shem’s actions that he isnt currently saved? Which is it? You dont get to have both. You get to have AN argument. If Kent wants to take what you wrote, then fire away, but you dont get to have this sentiment when your very faith demands that this is most certainly not the case.

  174. 174 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 5:55 am

    Kent, you are exactly correct in what you wrote below. This is (or should be) the same sentiment you will find from any LDS person.
    we all believe that true faith is all about what Jesus did by dying on the cross, to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves

    Lets use a dinner analogy here… I dont think this one has been done before.
    All humans are starving and Christ is the only cook in the entire world.
    Christ prepares a meal, sets the table, puts out all the fine china in the world, and serves the meal.
    The “only Christ” crowd would need to add that Christ feeds us (i can accept that in some, like an infant..)
    But then they also need to add that Christ chews the food for us, he swallows the food for us, he digests the food for us, and he expels the waste material after the nutrients have absorbed.
    Then you have the “something on our part” crowd. We recognize that ONLY CHRIST could prepare this food. Every single other person for the purpose of this analogy would poison you if the tried to cook. It is our responsibility to eat the food. It is our responsibility to digest it (and not to vomit it), and then to expel the used parts so our body doesnt go into septic shock and die.
    Without Christ as our cook, we would surely die. In this respect, he has done everything.
    It is not the cooks job however, to eat the food for the person. The cook cooks, he does not eat, or digest, or expel. He cooks.

    “and that it is not at all about progressing to some day, if we are worthy, to have eternal life”
    We dont progress to having eternal life. We progress in our understanding of that life, in using that life. In the analogy above, and in real life, when a baby is born, do you hand them a knife and fork and say good luck? You must teach them what the knife and fork do. Could they survive without it? Sure they could.. But then why did Christ lay out the fine china? If you dont teach people table manners, what was the purpose of 3/4 of what Christ did? All he would have needed to do was prepare the meal, and let you go to town, right? Yes, all that is NEEDED is the food, but that is not all that Christ has done for you. He has done so much more than that, He has given us so much more than that.

    If you are happy with “just the food” Kent, you are obviously more than welcome to it. Mormons are simply asking you to sit at the table and have some manners. (the manners thing is NOT a stab at anyone, it is meant purely in the sense of this metaphor… please see it as such…)

  175. 175 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 6:02 am

    Just had to post i personally really like how that analogy turned out… It wasnt exactly planned and i am ridiculously tired… Have a good night all

  176. June 28, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Josh said: “I am aware there have been changes to the BoM. I am sure that there have been changes to the Bible.”

    There have been no changes to the Bible like the changes made in Mormonism. That’s absurd. Watch this video about the accuracy of the Bible…

    A Revelation that needs changes of the sort going on in Mormonism is a sure sign of a corrupt church out to deceive. If Joseph Smith’s prophecies were true, they would not need changing. The two cannot co-exist. Lets not forget that God himself told Joseph what to write, God gave him every word. Or is it that your God himself is a false prophet? He must be since he didn’t get the revelations right to begin with!

    Typo’s are one thing but adding and subtracting from the text, those type of changes are a whole different ball game and you won’t find changes like that in the Bible. Period. Yes, your church will teach you that there have been changes like that made to the Bible, but that doesn’t make it true! Do the research for yourself. You are so high and mighty about research, do some research yourself instead of just listening to everything your Church teaches you.

    If you are comfortable with the changes made to the Mormon text, it’s not any wonder you can be so easily deceived. A prophecy that has been changed proves absolutely nothing except that the prophecy came from a false prophet / false God.

    The Book of Mormon is not the most correct book on earth, it really is the most incorrect book on earth. It has had more changes than any book ever written that I know of.

  177. 177 shematwater
    June 28, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    ECHO

    How do you account for the removal of the books of the Apocrypha, which were considered inspired scripture and part of the Bible until the reformation?

    As to your changes in the Doctrine and Covenants, I am sorry but I don’t feel like reading all of them. I looked at that first two and had to laugh at the digging to find something wrong; at the the ridiculous attempts to prove something that just doesn’t exist. So they changed “into” to “unto.” Big deal.
    There is nothing in the changes made that alters the meaning of the words. Clarifications were made; writing style was altered slightly; at times words were changed from the future to the past tense. None of it means anything.

    “You have willfully resisted God’s word for at least two years”

    I have to agree with Josh here. You told me I had no free will until after I was chosen. If this is true how can I willfully resist? Also, if nothing I do can have any effect on that initial choosing, than even if I could willfully resist it doesn’t matter as doing so can have no effect on me being chosen.
    Such contradictions makes everything you say rather confusing.

  178. 178 shematwater
    June 28, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    ECHO

    On another note; your links are nearly impossible to read, so I would suggest getting better ones if you actually want to show anything.

  179. June 28, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Shem, the links are easier to read when you use the zoom feature on your computer. If you want clearer links, why don’t you suggest to your church that they publish the originals instead of keeping them from the public.

  180. June 28, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Shem said: “As to your changes in the Doctrine and Covenants, I am sorry but I don’t feel like reading all of them. I looked at that first two and had to laugh at the digging to find something wrong; at the the ridiculous attempts to prove something that just doesn’t exist. So they changed “into” to “unto.” Big deal.”

    Not everyone is “willing” to be so easily deceived like you are Shem. The smart people will actually read all the links before coming to faulty conclusions like you have.

    Use your own “willful” resistance like you have shown here and all throughout this blog, as an educational tool in teaching you what I mean by some willfully resist to their own destruction.

  181. 181 choosethechrist
    June 28, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Josh said,
    “We dont progress to having eternal life.”

    Hmmm, I understand the knowlege part of your analogy, but your understanding and learning does result in something for you and that is your progression to having eternal life is it not?

    Also, this isn’t about “manners” , this is about souls. The consequences justify the actions.

    Echo or anyone else, do you have the quotes from LDS leaders regarding them welcoming the presentation of our “knowledge” and truths to them. I can’t seem to find mine at the moment.

  182. June 28, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Choose,

    Is this what you are looking for?…

    “I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter Day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. “~ Brigham Young

    “If a faith cannot bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak” ~ George A Smith 1st Counselor to Brigham Young

    “…convince us of our errors of doctrine, if there are any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information”~Apostle Orson Pratt

  183. 183 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    Echo, i am not the one calling the BoM false. As such, it is not my place to prove or disprove its authenticity. I have called the Bible false, and provided a pretty good list of reasons why i believe it to be so.
    Would you believe that every single version of the Bible that is out right now is correct?
    NAB, NRSV, NIV, KJV, The Message, NASB, NLT, RSV, The Amplified Bible, and the Orthodox Study Bible
    NKJV
    1535 AD: Myles Coverdale’s Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).
    1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John “Thomas Matthew” Rogers (80 Books).
    1539 AD: The “Great Bible” Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).
    1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).
    1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).
    1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).
    1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.
    1782 AD: Robert Aitken’s Bible; The First English Language Bible (KJV) Printed in America.
    1808 AD: Jane Aitken’s Bible (Daughter of Robert Aitken); The First Bible to be Printed by a Woman.
    1833 AD: Noah Webster’s Bible; After Producing his Famous Dictionary, Webster Printed his Own Revision of the King James Bible.
    1846 AD: The Illuminated Bible; The Most Lavishly Illustrated Bible printed in America. A King James Version, with All 80 Books.
    1885 AD: The “English Revised Version” Bible; The First Major English Revision of the KJV.
    1901 AD: The “American Standard Version”; The First Major American Revision of the KJV.
    1971 AD: The “New American Standard Bible” (NASB) is Published as a “Modern and Accurate Word for Word English Translation” of the Bible.
    1973 AD: The “New International Version” (NIV) is Published as a “Modern and Accurate Phrase for Phrase English Translation” of the Bible.
    1982 AD: The “New King James Version” (NKJV) is Published as a “Modern English Version Maintaining the Original Style of the King James.”
    2002 AD: The English Standard Version (ESV) is Published as a translation to bridge the gap between the accuracy of the NASB and the readability of the NIV.

    Yep… the Bible has never been altered… tenses have never been changed, it is exactly the same all across the board.

    Consider the following textual comparison of the earliest English translations of John 3:16, as shown in the English Hexapla Parallel New Testament:
    1st Ed. King James (1611): “For God so loued the world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.”
    Rheims (1582): “For so God loued the vvorld, that he gaue his only-begotten sonne: that euery one that beleeueth in him, perish not, but may haue life euerlasting”
    Geneva (1560): “For God so loueth the world, that he hath geuen his only begotten Sonne: that none that beleue in him, should peryshe, but haue euerlasting lyfe.”
    Great Bible (1539): “For God so loued the worlde, that he gaue his only begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleueth in him, shulde not perisshe, but haue euerlasting lyfe.”
    Tyndale (1534): “For God so loveth the worlde, that he hath geven his only sonne, that none that beleve in him, shuld perisshe: but shuld have everlastinge lyfe.”
    Wycliff (1380): “for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,”
    Anglo-Saxon Proto-English Manuscripts (995 AD): “God lufode middan-eard swa, dat he seade his an-cennedan sunu, dat nan ne forweorde de on hine gely ac habbe dat ece lif.”

    I am not going to revisit the Bible any more. There was a whole thread on the accuracy of the Bible, and i showed that it was altered.

  184. 184 markcares
    June 28, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Josh:
    Those are all Bible translations – none claiming to be inspired. Therefore that list doesn’t even apply to your opening statement. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Greek. That is what pertains to the discussion.
    That is not the situation with the Book of Mormon. Mormonism claims that Joseph Smith ‘translated them by the gift and power of God.” In addition, since we don’t have the supposed golden plates when he claimed that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth” he had to be referring to his translation. Therefore it is legitimate to ask on what basis changes have been made in it.

  185. 185 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 3:27 am

    Choose,

    Is this what you are looking for?…

    “I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter Day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. “~ Brigham Young

    “If a faith cannot bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak” ~ George A Smith 1st Counselor to Brigham Young

    “…convince us of our errors of doctrine, if there are any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information”~Apostle Orson Pratt

    Yes, thanks a bunch Echo!

    Shem and Josh, you don’t sound grateful that there are so many people out there who care enough to save souls.

    Shem said: “As to your changes in the Doctrine and Covenants, I am sorry but I don’t feel like reading all of them.

    Shem (and Josh), do you have weak foundations? We are trying to convince you and yet you are not grateful for the information.

  186. 186 joshtried
    June 29, 2012 at 4:35 am

    I am grateful that you say you care. That has never been a question (unless you are Lutheran, in which case i specifically dont see it as caring). The issue at hand is a question of truthfulness, not of correct verb tenses. Perhaps the same scripture applies to both books.. “the lying scribe”.. In any case, the links are hard to read, but i will try to take a look at them.

  187. 187 joshtried
    June 29, 2012 at 4:45 am

    So, having just looked through 10 or so of these (from my phone) i see additions like last names and corrections of doth to does. Where there are huge parts blocked out

  188. 188 joshtried
    June 29, 2012 at 4:52 am

    There appear to be equally large parts with the same thing rewritten for clarity. There are a lot of hes changed to yous. I cannot answer this difinitively, but it looks like someone else was writting while Joseph spoke… Or Joseph was writting while speaking… And later realized the 2 did not match.

  189. June 29, 2012 at 5:29 am

    Take your time examining these Josh. I am gone for the long weekend. I hope you have a great weekend! Talk to you monday or tuesday.

  190. 190 Kent
    June 29, 2012 at 9:54 am

    “I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter Day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. “~ Brigham Young

    Great, compare what the Mormon Church teaches that grace comes after all we can do (works) with the Bible that says grace is a gift of God, not of works, as a gift is exactly that, free, which requires us to do nothing to receive our gift. As God transferred our gift to us without requiring any compensation (works) from us, thus grace is not after all we can do. The Bible says so.

    Book of Mormon:

    2 Nephi 25:23

    For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    OR

    The Bible:

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    1 gift

    noun \ˈgift\

    Definition of GIFT

    1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
    2: SOMETHING VOLUNTARILY TRANSFERRED BY ONE PERSON TO ANOTHER WITHOUT COMPENSATION
    3: the act, right, or power of giving

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  191. 191 joshtried
    June 29, 2012 at 11:18 am

    For the love of goodness you do not understand “after all we can do”. It has been explained several times now. Your way of presenting it is not consistent with LDS teachings. Just because you fail to grasp what we say does not give you liberty to use it as you see fit. If the US government took the same liberties our people would have overthrow them in a heartbeat. Yes, grace allows us to be saved. Nothing of our own accord cab “prepare that meal.” but we must “eat”, this is where “after all you can do” comes in. Please stop presenting it any other way. It is a down right lie to present it any other way. Even you Kent have said we must choose Christ. So which is it, are you saved before you accept Christ or after (all you can do) you accept him???

  192. 192 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    Josh said, “Nothing of our own accord cab “prepare that meal.” but we must “eat”, this is where “after all you can do” comes in.”

    Josh, If your foundation is really as strong as you say it is, I would really like to see you expand and explain your beliefs in more depth and detail. Your presentation of the LDS gospel is really presented in a way that emphasizes the fact that you claim Christ in your beliefs which has never really been debated. I have yet to see a mormon on this blog really give an accurate description or explaination of what “after all we can do” really means as it is taught by the church and emphasized by early church leaders. You continue to focus on things that emphasize Jesus and things that make you sound “Christian”, but you fail to back up your beliefs with the things that truly set you apart from Christianity and the Biblical gospel. Why is it that? A true picture of your gospel has never really been presented here as far as I’m concerned. This is not rocket science, people are capable of understanding your gospel in spite of you guys telling us we don’t understand and couldn’t possibly understand it. You seem to think there is no possible way for us to comprehend what “after all we can do” means from an LDS perspective. Your church leaders make it very clear what “after all we can do” means and it would be nice to actually see the mormons here come to the table and present their gospel with clarity and in it’s fullness. When you try to paint a picture of being like someone else in order to be accepted it doesn’t really set you apart in the way that we are truly set apart. If you are going to stand up for what you believe in, then stand up for it to the fullest extent possible. Be proud of it, don’t back down from it and present it as it truly is, otherwise when people go reading through church publications and teachings to find out what the LDS thing is all about, they will see that what you say does not look like what is in print from your church, and it makes you look deceptive, like you don’t really want people to know just what it is you believe or what your church teaches. Perhaps you are afraid that the fullness of your gospel will do more harm than good if it is actually presented in it’s entire, true form?

    We must eat, yes this is what truly sets us apart because at the end of the day you are eating your way to god with the hope that you have eaten enough even with your Jesus at the table. You are still preparing and presenting your meal to god, hoping that he will show up.

    Jesus prepared my table and because he did, I am sitting at the table with God in communion with Him sharing that meal because of what Jesus did.

    If we throw most of our doctines out the window and just look at ourselves as human beings, I can honestly say that your moral character and goodness are no different than mine. Oh, but you are LDS you say, you are good, you do all of these good things, you belong to the only true church that will get you to god. Do you really have something I don’t? Because I am a small minority in a large LDS community, people always assume I am LDS because of my morals, character,the way I live my life, etc and I have worked with enough LDS people to see that they really aren’t doing any better than I am at doing everything Jesus told us to do and you want me to believe that because you spend your time trying to seal yourselves together in your temples so that you can be together as a family unit that this is what is truly pleasing to god and makes you better than me? I am sealed to my saved family members via Jesus and because of Jesus we will be togther for all eternity in communion with God. I am doing all I can do to live in submission and obedience to God everyday, but what I do is not going to put me in communion with God because HE is the one who is savior, HE is the one who chooses to accept ME based on my faith in Jesus Christ, not my actions, deeds, church affiliation or anything else. Jesus didn’t tell me that I would come to the Father after all I could do, Jesus told me he is the way and to come by him.

  193. 193 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    CHOOSE

    “A true picture of your gospel has never really been presented here as far as I’m concerned.”

    In other words, you do not accept that you are wrong concerning our doctrine, and until we admit that you are right you will just think of us as deceiving liars.
    I have news for you. We have presented it perfectly accurate for several months, or in my case years. Your failure to accept that what we present is the truth of our faith means nothing.

    There was a thread some time back that went into detail as to the meaning of the the phrase “After all we can do,” in which we posted quotes and explanations that completely refuted everything that you claim we believe regarding it. Yet here it is again, with you still ignoring everything that we have already proven to be our doctrine in favor of what you want the doctrine to be.

    Let me sum up, so that there is no confusion left. We are saved after all we can do. However, this is by the Grace of Christ. You want to put Grace after all we can do, and that is not accurate. Salvation is after all we can do, not grace. Grace makes both all we can do and salvation possible.
    Get the order right and you might actually understand something.

    “in spite of you guys telling us we don’t understand and couldn’t possibly understand it.”

    No one has ever said you can’t understand. We have stated clearly that you don’t (or if you do and purposely ignoring it), and that you choose not to, as actually understanding it would shake your foundations.

    “We are trying to convince you and yet you are not grateful for the information.”

    We are always grateful for true and accurate information. We are not convinced of your argument by this information, but we are grateful for it. The information provided proves nothing, as the meaning was not changed.

    KENT

    I have compared the Bible to LDS doctrine (real LDS doctrine, and not the false doctrine that is claimed here) and found them to be in perfect harmony. It is your doctrine that I find contradicts the Bible, and frequently seems to ignore much of what that great book says, or rationalizes it away.

  194. 194 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Shem, you have not defined your terms or the meaning of the words you use ie grace, salvation. You are speaking to Christians and your definition of grace is not our definition of grace nor are our definitions of salvation the same which is a large part of my point. Grace means something completely different in LDS theology and you guys don’t really explain the differences with an emphasis on what you are taught by your church and what you believe. You simply toss around words without expaining the teachings or beliefs of the LDS and when we start to push you on issues that are important or try to dig down into the nitty gritty of LDS doctrine you generally ignore the issues and choose to become silent regarding the issues presented. Your word choices make it seem like we are similar in our beliefs, but you and I know that is not the case. Like I said, if you believe it, stand by it and do it with conviction. Silence is not conviction.

    And, I don’t understand your presentation of the LDS gospel, but I do understand the LDS gospel as it is written and presented by your LDS church leaders.

    I know you are not convinced and I appreciate your gratitude. I pray that God will someday convince you that our information is true and accurate.

  195. 195 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    CHOOSE

    Actually, I have defined these terms in regards to our doctrine. I have done so more than once. Again, if you do not accept what I have given that means nothing.

    “I don’t understand your presentation of the LDS gospel, but I do understand the LDS gospel as it is written and presented by your LDS church leaders.”

    That is funny, because I have taught nothing but what they themselves have taught. Maybe you do not understand how I present it, but it is the same thing as what they teach.
    As I said, it appears that you have a preset idea of what our doctrine is, and you interpret everything you read according to that preset idea. That does not mean you understand what the leaders actually mean, only that you are able to make it fit into what you want them to mean.

  196. 196 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Let me put it this way, we already know about the “meat” Shem. It seems to me that you want to emphasize the “milk” here and don’t really want to talk about the “meat” so much, but we are ready to dig in. Lets get to the “meat” of it all. In my opinion, you are just too vague. Is it your goal to appear Christian in order to be accepted as Christian by Christians or to be what you are which is LDS? It is my understanding that this is the approach that the boys from BYU are taking these days. Is it better to seek acceptance or is it better to stand up and put everything you believe out there? Frankly, I would rather stand up for what I believe in and have no problem with the fact that non believers think I’m a nut case for it. I don’t need their acceptance. I need God’s acceptance. I just feel like you are holding back on what you are willing to say about LDS doctrine and teachings.

    Perhaps my “preset ideas” on mormonism come from what my LDS friends and relatives have shown me?

    “That does not mean you understand what the leaders actually mean, only that you are able to make it fit into what you want them to mean.”

    Maybe my goal is to contrast what your leaders have said with Biblical Christianity in order to show the difference between the two since there is a big difference and you don’t like the differences so much. Maybe you really like our gospel better?

  197. 197 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    For example, regarding the LDS gospel of after all we can do:

    “Therefore, acting alone, the grace of Christ is not sufficient for salvation. The works of man — the ordinances of salvation, the deeds of service and acts of charity and mercy — are necessary for salvation…” (By Grace Are We Saved: The necessity of God’s grace in addition to man’s good works, 1989 ed., p. 70)

    This speaks so clearly to me, “Christ is NOT sufficient for salvation”, “The works of man….are necessary for salvation…” and the title: The necessity of God’s grace IN ADDITION TO man’s good works. Wow!

    Just wondering why the LDS here spend to much time trying to emphasize Christ’s role in the LDS plan of salvation when it really comes down to what you do. Sure Jesus came up with your plan of salvation and was an example to the character that heavenly father wants you to have, but it really all comes down to what you do, your works. Nothing but the blood of Jesus for the LDS?? No, that’s not the LDS gospel. The LDS gospel is man’s good works + God’s grace + the work of Jesus so that man may become a god.

    Nothing but the blood of Jesus is the gospel of Jesus Christ and can be found in the Bible: The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and our restored relationship with God so that we can avoid the pits of hell and dwell with God the Father for all eternity in heaven.

    Thank You Jesus!

  198. 198 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    CHOOSE

    In your example you prove that have have not listened to anything I have said and do not understand a word that you are reading.

    Actually, I have gone over this probably a dozen times on this site, and I went over it at least once with you on this thread. You are just ignoring me, and then claiming I am not talking.

    Now, I agree that we are emphasizing the role of Christ on this thread, and even to a large extent through this site. The reason is simply. You are attempting to twist it into something it isn’t; you are trying to claim that it is less than it really is. If you would actually get the doctrine right I would have no need to correct you, and then we would be able to discuss other things. But until you actually get it right we will continue to emphasize this point, as leaving it to your twisting is blasphamy.

    Let me go over this once more: Nothing but the blood of Christ has the power of salvation. All our good works mean nothing without his atoning sacrifice. However, that power of salvation will not opperate in our lives without action on our part. This I have never denied.

    Let us get technical. According to LDS doctrine if there is even the slightiest hint of this power in our lives we will go to heaven and will be in the presence of God. The more power that operates in our lives the greater our reward in Heaven.
    The Celestial Kingdom requires us to constantly be working to keep the channels clean so that the power fully saturates our lives (I would say 90% power).
    The Terrestrial world requires a little less, but still requires a desent flow of energy (I would say at least 50% power).
    The Telestial Kingdom only requires a bear minimum of energy (1% power).
    Only those who turn so completely away from God that they become saturated with power of Satan, to the point that not even 1% of their lives can be effected by the power of God, will not enter heaven.

    Thus, it is by the power and grace of God, made possible by the Blood of Christ, that we enter Heaven. However, it is though our actions that we are judged and given our reward in Heaven.

    (Note: In the previous statement, when I say we will be in the presence of God I am using the term as the LDS doctrine does; meaning a title that is shared by all three members of the Godhead. Thus to be in the presence of God requires only one member of the Godhead, which all people will receive.)

    Now, I have never denied any of this, but have proclaimed it proudly, as it declares a more merciful God than anything you have ever described. It also declares a more just God than anything you have ever described. I have no wish to deny this, or cover it, or gloss over it.
    The problem is that you fail to recognize that it is the blood of Christ that gets us to heaven. You keep trying to claim that this part is dependent on us, and it is not. You keep trying to claim that we teach something less than this, and we don’t.

  199. 199 choosethechrist
    June 30, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Shem said, “Let us get technical. According to LDS doctrine if there is even the slightiest hint of this power in our lives we will go to heaven and will be in the presence of God. The more power that operates in our lives the greater our reward in Heaven.”

    Your in depth explaination of things was much better for my understanding this time.

    I see what you are saying. I think it is interesting that your church leaders call being placed anywhere other than being physically with god in the CK as damnation (telestial and terrestial are damnation). I don’t really see this as being better. As a Christian who has placed myself under the 100% operational power of Jesus Christ, I have all of his strength and power, even if I am unable to keep all of his commandments all of the time through my faith and repentance. We believe that damnation is total seperation from God for eternity and our goal is to literally be with Him for all eternity. Getting visits from Jesus or the Holy Spirit will not cut it for us. There will be rewards or crowns for us, but earning rewards is not our focus or goal. Living in obedience and submission to God, glorifying God, and sharing the gospel are what is emphasized.

  200. 200 choosethechrist
    July 1, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Shem said, (Note: In the previous statement, when I say we will be in the presence of God I am using the term as the LDS doctrine does; meaning a title that is shared by all three members of the Godhead. Thus to be in the presence of God requires only one member of the Godhead, which all people will receive.)

    The thing that stikes me the most about all of this is the difference in gospels:

    If we as Christians are wrong, according to LDS scripture, we get to dwell “in the presence of God” for all eternity, and it will not be an eternity of torment and punishment in hell.

    If the LDS are wrong, according to the Bible, they are going to dwell in hell, separated from God for all eternity.

    I can see why the LDS prefer their version better than ours. The outcome is better for pretty much everybody their way. Since I have no desire to be a God, I really have no desire to be LDS and since I will still be given the opportunity to dwell “in the presence of God” there really is no motivation for me to be LDS.

    The risks are high for the LDS, not so much for us Christians.

    The gospel=good news.

    Where is the good news of the gospel for mormons: obey god so that you can be a god, strive to obey god and do your best to obey god so that you can be “in the presence of God” for eternity.

    The gospel: Believe in and accept the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins so that you can escape an eternity of hell and separation from God. Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!!!!

  201. 201 Kent
    July 1, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    A very dangerous Mormon doctrine is the idea that even most unbelievers will have a place in the telestial kingdom, which is supposed to be better than anything here on earth, but the Bible says the unbelieving have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

    Having their part in this lake (Hell) is not in any way, shape, or form in any way a glorious future and is in no way better than anything here on earth.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    In closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  202. 202 Kent
    July 1, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    Of course, my last post is pointing out that unbelievers will not go to what the Mormons call the telestial kingdom but will go to Hell, having their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

  203. 203 joshtried
    July 1, 2012 at 10:41 pm

    There is no Bible verse on this, but knowing the nature of God and from some testimonies I have heard, it is possible that God gives the person who has never heard a chance to hear and receive the Gospel, even after death. This only pertains to those who have NEVER heard of Jesus nor had the chance to hear of Jesus. I believe God give everyone a chance to accept or reject. This is why Jesus said that the Gospel must be preached in all the world as a witness before the end of the age comes. Again, there is no Bible verse to confirm this. This is just my opinion.
    http://preacherdon.hubpages.com/hub/What-About-the-Heathen

    Here is a Christian viewpoint that differs from yours. There are those that choose to see all scripture in a different light.

  204. 204 choosethechrist
    July 2, 2012 at 1:51 am

    There will always be those who will choose to see scripture the way they want to see scripture, but what is important here is what God says or does not say.

    Regarding the article you posted, I think some key points have been missed.

    “There is no Bible verse on this, but knowing the nature of God and from some testimonies I have heard, it is possible that God gives the person who has never heard a chance to hear and receive the Gospel, even after death.”~ Preacher Don

    Here is where he takes some liberties that are not Biblical: “even after death”. The Bible says that there is NO chance to hear and receive the gospel after death:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/second-chance-salvation.html

    Don then goes on to say: “…those who have never heard of Jesus will not be without excuse. God will judge them based on the knowledge that they have. ……..He is not going to hold people accountable to a law or a Gospel of which they have never heard.” However, Don made a point about people having a knowledge of God through nature or general revelation which implies that they will be held accountable for violating God’s standards even if all they have is their “conscience” telling them not to do something that is bad and they do it anyway “…those who have never heard of Jesus will not be without excuse”.

    The Bible is silent on exactly how God will judge those who have never heard the gospel or had the chance to accept Jesus, but the thing we can be sure of is that they will be judged by a perfect judge and we don’t need to put our own salvation in jeopardy because of what God may or may not do to those who have never heard the gospel because everyone here HAS heard the gospel and HAS been given the chance to accept or reject it. My post was written with mormons in mind because we are talking about mormons and mormons know what our gospel message is and have rejected it. I trust God to do what is right by those who have NOT heard the gospel.

    http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm

    http://carm.org/what-happens-those-who-have-never-heard-gospel

  205. 205 Kent
    July 2, 2012 at 3:38 am

    Shem said, “(Note: In the previous statement, when I say we will be in the presence of God I am using the term as the LDS doctrine does; meaning a title that is shared by all three members of the Godhead. Thus to be in the presence of God requires only one member of the Godhead, which all people will receive.)”

    Shem, God will not be present in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone so, no, all people will not be in the presence of even one member of the Godhead so what you are saying directly contradicts what the Bible says.

    Sadly, some people will be joining the devil, the false prophet, and the Beast, they will not be with God.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Revelation 20:10

    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    So no so called telestial kingdom that is better than anything here on earth for these people.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!


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