27
Jun
12

Who is Jesus?

Lesson 26 of the Gospel Doctrine curriculum covers Alma 24-29 in the Book of Mormon.  These chapters consist mainly of the supposed story of the converted Lamanites and do not contain much doctrine.  Because of that I am going to use one comment made by the teacher’s manual as a springboard to explain biblical Christianity’s view of Jesus especially as it differs from Mormonism’s view of him.  I am doing that not only because that is a question many Mormons ask, but one that has been asked here.  The comment in the teacher’s manual that got me thinking about that was:  Why is it essential that Jesus Christ be at the center of our conversion?”

In its bare wording, I can wholeheartedly agree with that.  But the key, of course, is what does that mean.  I usually focus on showing the difference ways Mormonism and the Bible describe the effects or consequences of what Jesus did for us.  In this post, however, I will list a few ways that Mormonism and biblical Christianity differ in describing who Jesus is.

Biblical Christianity has always placed Jesus, as the Son of God, on the very same level as the Father.  Even though it is logical to assume that the Father is older than the Son and deserves greater honor; that is not biblical.  I say that fully aware that, during his time on earth, Jesus himself says that the Father is greater than he.  (I will return to that shortly.)  I say that because the Bible itself gives them equal honor.  Think, for example, of the command to baptize in the name (interesting that it is singular and not plural – but that is a topic for another time) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.  Or consider what Jesus said in John 5:23.  “That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.”  The word “even” in that passage has the force of “equal” as is seen in many translations that translate “just as”.

The Bible also talks about the eternity of the Son in the sense of having no beginning or end.  John 1:1 simply states.  “In the beginning was the Word”.  In other words, the Word was already there in the beginning.  The Bible also calls him “the mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6) and, according to the Bible, God didn’t become God.  He was always God.

These are just a couple of many different ways that we see the Bible placing the Son on the same level as the Father.  But what about those passages, especially in the gospel of John, that indicate that Jesus is under the Father?  The key to understanding those passages is Philippians 2:5-11. “ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Verse 6 admittedly is difficult to translate from the Greek even though the Greek is quite clear.  The difficulty is not a matter of wondering what the Greek says.  The difficulty is not having the words in English to express those thoughts.  What Paul says in verse 6 is that even though Christ was in “very nature” (some translations) God, he didn’t want to publicly display his equality with God – he didn’t want to make a big deal of it.  Instead he did the complete opposite – he took the very nature of a slave, even to the point of being obedient to dying on the cross.

Those are the facts.  Paul, in 2 Corinthians 8:9 tells us the reason Jesus did that.  “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”  Jesus did this to give us the riches of forgiveness, eternal life, and the blessedness of living with Heavenly Father for all eternity.  In other words, he humbled himself and became his Father’s slave to save us.  That wasn’t his true nature – his true nature was God– but that was the nature he took upon himself for his mission of saving us.  And that is why, while on that mission, speaking as a slave, he could say that his Father was greater than he.

Compare that to the teachings of Mormonism.  It states that Jesus is a spirit child of Heavenly Father and Mother as supposedly not only all humans are, but also the devil and all the demons.  It states that Jesus was our brother, not just when he became flesh (John 1:14) but already before his birth in Bethlehem.  It states that Jesus was not always true God but like all –even his Father, he had to attain to godhood.  It tells its members to pray to the Father through Jesus, but it never tells its members to pray directly to Jesus as Stephen did in Acts 7.  In these and in many other ways, Mormonism does not give the Son equal honor with the Father.

Over the years I have asked Mormons one simple question to illustrate this fact.  Who is the one God that the Bible talks about? Keeping to its teachings, it can’t give both the Father and the Son that honor – something that Christians don’t hesitate to do. That is just one of many differences between Mormonism’s and Christianity’s views of Jesus.

And that is important because as Jesus himself said:  “That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.  He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.” (John 5:23)

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124 Responses to “Who is Jesus?”


  1. 1 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 5:10 am

    We do honour the father and the son. To say different is to ignore the totality of our beliefs. When we perform a baptism or a confirmation, it is in the name of each of the “Godhead.” We also honour Christ (and God) with our lives. The only difference is we recognize them as 2 separate entities. One is obviously overall in change of things. If this were not the case, Christ would not have submitted to the Father. When we pray, you are right that we dont pray to Jesus, or to Mary, or St. Peter, or anyone else for that matter. We pray to our father.

    There are a few other things in this i wish to comment on…

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    We are in the form of God (man was made in his image, or the “human form”)… something to dwell on for a bit. (and yes, i know you explained this verse in more detail. I am taking it at face value because i dont speak German)

    “he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:”
    This scripture could be read that if Christ had NOT been obedient and went to the cross, he would not be equal. Of course, Christ did go, so we will never know if the converse is true. Or, we could look to Satan who was not obedient, and see what happened there, and how we look at him now.

  2. 2 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 5:24 am

    Biblical Christianity has always placed Jesus, as the Son of God, on the very same level as the Father. Even though it is logical to assume that the Father is older than the Son
    Compare that to the teachings of Mormonism. It states that Jesus is a spirit child of Heavenly Father

    “as supposedly not only all humans are, but also the devil and all the demons.”
    Is God not the creator of all things?

    It states that Jesus was our brother, not just when he became flesh (John 1:14) but already before his birth in Bethlehem
    We know there was definitely a war in heaven prior to the creation of earth, right? While i can not allegorically prove that you and i were there, it is obvious that whoever was there chose sides, as 1/3 of the host of heaven left. In the event that you and i WERE THERE, we would have chosen the side of Christ, since we now get to play around in these neat little bodies. On earth, those who chose to accept Christ are supposed to be the “adopted” sons of God, right? If God is the same today as yesterday, and yesterday was premortal, why would we not have been adopted then? Which would make us…… brothers of Christ before his physical birth….

    It states that Jesus was not always true God but like all –even his Father, he had to attain to godhood.
    How is it that you are okay with The father being older than the Son, but you are not okay with the Son progressing to the same state as the Father? Even if that progression was near instantaneous, it is still progression.

    It tells its members to pray to the Father through Jesus, but it never tells its members to pray directly to Jesus as Stephen did in Acts 7
    If i am not mistaken, Shem answered this by saying that if Jesus were here, we would. Since He is not, we dont. Do you pray to the Holy Ghost? Or do you pray to God for the comfort of the Holy Ghost?

  3. 3 Kent
    June 28, 2012 at 5:58 am

    joshtried, Jesus is not a creation, all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. So Jesus is the creator and not just of this world but of the worlds, plural, as through Him He made the worlds. Hence all things, us and Satan included, were made through Him. So no, Jesus was never ours or Satan’s spirit brother.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

    Of course, you can choose to not believe what the Bible says about Jesus.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  4. 4 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 6:12 am

    If Christ is the literal Son of God, and we are adopted sons of God, how are we not brothers?
    If, as Mark stated, the father is older than the son, you open the possibility of Christ not even being around when “father” became God.. Even if Christ was not in existence, and then he was and was instantly a God, then he progressed from nothing to God.

  5. 5 markcares
    June 28, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Josh:
    Let me clarify what I meant. According to human logic it would make sense that the Father is older than the Son. But note that I followed by saying that is not biblical. For me, the Bible trumps my human logic. Therefore, since the Bible says Father and Son are co-equal and both have no beginning, it is totally false to then believe my human logic, that the Father is older.
    Also let me clarify my use of John 5:23. If in the first half Jesus is clearly speaking about receiving equal honor, according to all rules of grammar etc,, when he continues talking about honor he is talking about the same honor he had just described, namely, equal honor. Therefore the second half of the verse applies to all those who do not give Jesus the same honor as they give the Father.
    Josh, I think you answered my question when you said one is in charge of things. But just so I do not put words into your mouth, with that statement, are you saying that the one God mentioned in the Bible – the one God we are to worship is Heavenly Father?

  6. 6 Kent
    June 28, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    I said, “Jesus is not a creation, all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. So Jesus is the creator and not just of this world but of the worlds, plural, as through Him He made the worlds. Hence all things, us and Satan included, were made through Him. So no, Jesus was never ours or Satan’s spirit brother. ”

    I would like to add, since all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made and since the worlds, which are among the all things that were made through the Son, the second person of the trinity, there wasn’t any planets (worlds) for God to have been a man on first before He became God so God couldn’t have been a man first who somehow became God.

    An explanation with how I am closing my posts : eternal life (being saved, everlasting life) does not mean anyone can become a god. It means we have eternal life in the mansion where God is. There are only two possible desitnations after we leave this world, eternal life or having one’s part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone but we have no chance in the afterlife to have eternal life if we don’t have it when we leave this earth.

    But take heart though if we believe in trust in who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, we have eternal life.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  7. 7 shematwater
    June 28, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    I would like to point out a few things.

    In John 1: 1 we read that “In the beginning was the Word”
    The question then becomes When was the beginning? There are many beginnings, and this does not specify which one it speaks of.
    To answer this question we turn to Genesis 1: 1 which says “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
    The beginning of the Bible is not the Beginning of Existence, but the beginning of this earth.
    Now, these are the only two times in which this phase is used in this way, and thus it can be said that they refer to the same period, or the same beginning.
    Thus, all that John 1: 1 proves is that Christ was God when the work of creating this Earth began, a fact that we have never denied.

    As to the equality of the Father and the Son, even Paul disagrees with you on this.
    1 Corinthians 15: 28 “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
    Notice that even after all things are complete, and Christ has triumphed over them all, and all things are made subject unto him, He will still be subject unto the Father.
    In verse 27 it clarifies that “But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.”
    Thus Paul states directly that Christ will always be under the authority of the Father, and never equal to him.

    Speaking of John 5: 23, the term even does give a sense of equality; however, equal and the same are two different things. I honor my father as my father, and my mother as my mother, and my brothers and sisters as my brothers and sisters. I do not give them the same honor, but I do give them equal honor.
    In the same way I honor my Heavenly Father as my Heavenly Father, with all the rights and privileges that accompany that position. I give Jesus Christ equal honor, but the honor of being my Savior and my eldest Brother, for that is the honor his position is due.
    This is the real difference between the LDS and the rest of Christianity. We honor them for who they are as individuals; while you honor them as a collective.

    As to praying to the Father and not Christ, Josh got it right. If he were here I would bow down and pray to him. He is not here, and so I do not pray to him. You will find no place in the Bible where we are told to pray to the Son. Every time we are commanded to pray to the Father in the name of the Son; but never to the son.
    Even in the story of Stephen he did not actually call to Jesus, at least not just to him. Read the account again. In verse 55 he sees Jesus on the right hand of God, thus we have the distinction made between the two: In this account the Father is referred to as God, while Christ is referred to as Jesus, or Lord. Thus, when they stone him in verse 59 he calls on God, or the Father, pleading for Jesus to receive his spirit. Even in this account he opens his pleading to the Father.

    “Who is the one God that the Bible talks about?”
    It is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as they are one God. Notice the capital G, which makes this a proper noun, and thus a name, or title. Those who hold this title form a governing presidency, or Godhead, which the Bible generally refers to as being God. At times it refers to the individual members of this Godhead, but at those times it always gives descriptions to make the distinction.
    So, not only do we give the Father and the Son this honor, but also the Holy Ghost, for he is the third member of the Godhead.

  8. 8 JBR
    June 28, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    I just love it when the “anti Jesus is God” makes it way out. Many thing that Jesus did proved why those who hated him found ways to accuse Jesus of blasphemies

    1) Jesus forgave sins by his own authority

    Luke 5:21
    Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    .
    .

    2) Jesus claimed to be God (not one of three.. not “a” god)

    John 10:33
    The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God
    .
    .

    3) Jesus read and know the thoughts in the heart of man that they were evil

    Matthew 9:4
    And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

    Psalm 94:11
    The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

  9. 9 Kent
    June 28, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Shem, “The beginning of the Bible is not the Beginning of Existence, but the beginning of this earth.
    Now, these are the only two times in which this phase is used in this way, and thus it can be said that they refer to the same period, or the same beginning.”

    Shem, “ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. So your belef is not consistent with the Bible, the word of God, as all things means all things (not just the earth) and nothing that was made means nothing that was made (not just the earth). Also, through Him (Jesus) the worlds (plural) were made, not just the earth. So it follows that the beginning talked about in the Bible is not just the beginning of the earth but, again, the beginning of all things.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

    Again, I closing my posts with the following so that which is below this is seperate.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  10. 10 joshtried
    June 28, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    Shem, “ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. So your belef is not consistent with the Bible, the word of God, as all things means all things (not just the earth) and nothing that was made means nothing that was made (not just the earth). Also, through Him (Jesus) the worlds (plural) were made, not just the earth. So it follows that the beginning talked about in the Bible is not just the beginning of the earth but, again, the beginning of all things.

    Kent, do you understand the theory of multiple universes? Our entire universe is huge. Of this, we have much proof. But some postulate multiple universes, and even multiple dimensions in which other universes still might exist. to say this plane of existence is all that there is is pretty presumptuous. This again is limiting the abilities of God. We do not know everything, but in opening our minds to the unimaginable, we begin to see what is most likely really there. Can i prove any of this? of course not. Our top scientific minds are barely scratching their heads at the possibility of any of this being reality. I am not a top scientific mind. I am merely one that knows certain things. I KNOW there are demons and devils here on earth. I KNOW that i dont see them in my day to day life. Now, that leads to only 2 things… They are outside of my visible spectrum, or they exist somewhere i dont have access to.

    And He was made without Himself… so something was made without Him… Think about that for a while.

  11. 11 Kent
    June 29, 2012 at 2:51 am

    Josh, you are indulging in pure speculation but if there is such a thing as multiple universes or dimensions, I am not sure there are but if there are, then they would be included in the all things were made through Him. So you are limiting Him by saying He couldn’t create all things, even those you are speculating there is.

    No, Jesus was not made without Himself as he has always been. He is the creator and He is not and has never been the creation.

  12. 12 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Shem said, Thus, all that John 1: 1 proves is that Christ was God when the work of creating this Earth began, a fact that we have never denied.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Shem are you saying that the LDS teach that Christ had completed his progression to LDS godhood when he created the Earth?

    John 1:1 is a good starting place for us to see who Jesus is: he is the the messenger of the gospel who was with God and is God. Jesus is our savior, he provided the way for us to be with God through our belief in and acceptance of his work for us in his life, death, and resurrection. God saves us in spite of what we do. It’s all Him and not us. It is all His glory.

    The LDS may not have denied that Jesus created the Earth, but they have done quite a job of filling in the blanks in order to satisfy the questions of their minds through the mouths of men like Joseph Smith:

    “When the great council was held in heaven, in which all of us were involved, the Father presented his plan for peopling the earth and for the salvation of men.”

    “Lucifer wanted to amend the plan. He proposed to destroy the agency of men and to save all mankind, that not one soul would be lost. This he would accomplish through outright force and coercion, denying all persons the right of choice.”

    “The contention in heaven was…Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the Devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favour of Jesus Christ. So the Devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him” (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 8.)

    Which only really brings more questions to mind for me:

    The Father wanted a plan for the SALVATION of men (really just spirits at this point, how does a flesh and bone god procreate spirits and what exactly did they need to be saved from…hmmm?). In Christianity, the goal is to be with God in relationship, in communion with, and in the presence of God. The LDS already had this by being in the family unit of god as his spirit children. If we were with him, weren’t we already “saved”. Then there is Lucifer’s plan: take away our free will so that we would have to choose god, so that ALL mankind would be saved. Sounds terrible doesn’t it? All mankind forced to choose god, the horror of it all! Now, god said he wanted to save us (from being with him in heaven) and Jesus says, OK god, but we need to be selective here, we need to remove some weeds from this garden so lets not save everybody since I’m not too fond of all of my brothers and sisters and it’s getting pretty crowded up here with all the procreation going on and all. Maybe god just needed to stop procreating? So what exactly is the LDS goal here: salvation and communion with a god that they already had a relationship with or a way (Jesus) for them to become a god? I don’t really think the goal is to get back to the “presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ” especially since heavenly father will be on his planet, jesus will be on his planet, Shem will be on his planet, Josh will be on his planet, Josh’s son will be on his planet, etc, etc, etc…….

    This is how they suck you in: do all the right things and you will get eternal life with your family in the CK in the presence of heavenly father and jesus. How glorious it will be! The reality: do all the right things and you will be a god with your wife on your own planet, your children will be on their own planets, but never fear, you will be able to procreate lots of new spirit babies to replace your mortal children with and you probably won’t even miss not being with god and jesus since you will be busy being a god yourself.

    The other thing I find really interesting here is that LDS beings are all the same creation. LDS god, jesus, angels, demons, lucifer, you and I, all the same. Which fits nicely in their theology: anybody can be jesus, anybody can be a god, your or I can be in that same position of god, lucifer could have been god, any one of us could have had a plan of salvation choosen by god, anyone of us could have been the savior. Once we all learn what we need to know, we can be on the same level as god! WOW!!! The ego in this blows my mind! The pride of man never ceases to amaze me.

    LDS Jesus=a way to be a god.

    Jesus=a way to be reconciled to god.

    Big difference!!!!

  13. 13 JBR
    June 29, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Choose..
    good post!

    If I may.. I would for clarity would say:

    LDS Jesus=a way to be a god. [small god]

    Jesus=a way to be reconciled to God. [Capitol God]

    Big difference!!!!

    —————————————————————-
    The family tree that is presented in Mormonism makes “G”od once a “g”od with potential having a “G”od of his own

    or “G”od the Father a liar when he says:

    Isaiah 45:6
    I am the Lord, and there is none else.

    1 Kings 8:60
    That all the people of the earth may know that the Lord is God, and that there is none else.

  14. 14 JBR
    June 29, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    or “G”od the Father is a liar when he says:

    Isaiah 45:6
    I am the Lord, and there is none else.

    going from a man with flesh and bones doesn’t start out being “G”od …. he must have been a “g”od with potential.

    Which is why Jesus has to a “g”od … not “G”od in Mormonism.

  15. 15 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    JBR said:

    If I may.. I would for clarity would say:

    LDS Jesus=a way to be a god. [small god]

    Jesus=a way to be reconciled to God. [Capitol God]

    Big difference!!!!

    You most certainly can help me out anytime. Thanks for pointing that out JBR. I got so into trying to keep track of my LDS little g’s that I forgot the BIG G at the end!

  16. 16 Kent
    June 29, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Shem said, “The beginning of the Bible is not the Beginning of Existence, but the beginning of this earth.
    Now, these are the only two times in which this phase is used in this way, and thus it can be said that they refer to the same period, or the same beginning.
    Thus, all that John 1: 1 proves is that Christ was God when the work of creating this Earth began, a fact that we have never denied.”

    I said to Shem, ““ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. So your belef is not consistent with the Bible, the word of God, as all things means all things (not just the earth) and nothing that was made means nothing that was made (not just the earth). Also, through Him (Jesus) the worlds (plural) were made, not just the earth. So it follows that the beginning talked about in the Bible is not just the beginning of the earth but, again, the beginning of all things.”

    Josh said, “Kent, do you understand the theory of multiple universes? Our entire universe is huge. Of this, we have much proof. But some postulate multiple universes, and even multiple dimensions in which other universes still might exist. to say this plane of existence is all that there is is pretty presumptuous. This again is limiting the abilities of God. We do not know everything, but in opening our minds to the unimaginable, we begin to see what is most likely really there. Can i prove any of this? of course not. Our top scientific minds are barely scratching their heads at the possibility of any of this being reality. I am not a top scientific mind. I am merely one that knows certain things. I KNOW there are demons and devils here on earth. I KNOW that i dont see them in my day to day life. Now, that leads to only 2 things… They are outside of my visible spectrum, or they exist somewhere i dont have access to.”

    Maybe I misunderstood what your are saying but if you are saying all things, including mulitple universes or dimensions, were created through God the Son, Jesus Christ, that confirms what the Bible says, ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM (Jesus), AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE and THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE (Jesus) MADE THE WORLDS.

    So you helped confirm that the beginning talked about in the Bible is not just the beginning of the earth but is the beginning of everything and that nothing existed before the beginning of everything and again, “without Him (Jesus) nothing was made that was made.”

    By the way, Jesus Christ is not a thing, a creation with a beginning as He has always been, but He is God and He has always been God and anyone who says He didn’t exist, as God, outside of time and space and the creation, they are limiting what He, God, can do.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  17. 17 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    KENT

    If the Bible begins with the creation of this earth, it is reasonable to say that it deals only this this earth, and thus the statement that Christ made everything, as understood in that context, refers only to those things of this earth. Thus what I said is not inconsistant with the Bible.

    CHOOSE

    I have rarely seen such skill at twisting the doctrine of others into a deformed perversion of the original, and through that make false claims regarding the nature of the doctrine.
    Honestly, there is not a single sentence in what you wrote that accurately portrays the doctrine of the church (of course it was painful to listen to the sound of the twisting and snapping of truth so I may have missed a few lines).
    It is comments like this that convince me that you have no desire to actually understand the doctrine; only a desire to make it fit your twisted version.

  18. 18 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Oh, and just note that the LDS have never denied that Christ was God before this earth was created; that he was the God of the Old Testament, or Jehovah; that he was God while living in mortality; and that he is now God.

    However, his progress was not complete until after he had a physical body and was resurrected. He had the title of God, but not the existence of a god.
    Actually, Paul himself taught this to the Hebrews when he wrote “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God,” (Hebrews 10: 12) thus showing that it was not until after the atonement was complete that he truly took his full position on the right hand of the Father.

  19. 19 choosethechrist
    June 29, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    “Christ was God before this earth was created” and “He had the title of God, but not the existence of a god”.

    I thought G was reserved for heavenly father? Are you saying Christ and God are one in the same? I would love to see your references for this if you would be so kind.

    Christ was God, but now is god?

    Shem said, “Honestly, there is not a single sentence in what you wrote that accurately portrays the doctrine of the church (of course it was painful to listen to the sound of the twisting and snapping of truth so I may have missed a few lines). It is comments like this that convince me that you have no desire to actually understand the doctrine; only a desire to make it fit your twisted version.”

    Perhaps you would like to explain your doctrine of eternal progression so that we can understand it instead of just simply telling me I am twisting things. I did not say my thoughts were the teachings of the church, I took the words of JS and came up with a very logical conclusion to what his words say to me. My purpose is to challenge you to think about what I have said in regards to what JS and others in the church have said and/or taught. Those are the questions that came to mind when I read the words of JS. My mind is thinking. How about yours?

    What exactly did Jesus save you from? Jesus was a God in the spirit life and we are all created the same and with the same potential. Doesn’t that mean you or I could have been a God before we came here? Sounds like a pretty good gig to me. What did Jesus need to save us from in the spirit world we were in before we came here?

  20. 20 shematwater
    June 29, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    CHOOSE

    You misquote me.
    Christ was God, or he held the title of God, with all the authority and power that goes with it.
    However, he was not in a state of Eternal Life, of godhood, until after his resurrection, for that state of existence requires a physical body.

    “Are you saying Christ and God are one in the same?”

    No. I am saying they both old the same title, and thus hold the same powers and knowledge and all that goes with that title. The term God is not reserved for the Father, and never has been. The “Head of the Gods” is a title reserved to the Father, to designate His position of authority over even Christ. When a distinction is being made between the member so the Godhead it is common to list the Father as God, the Son and Lord, and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit. The reason is that the Father is the Head, and thus retains this title when being separated from the others. But the Title can be justly applied to any of the three members of the Godhead.

    As to your logic, if you understood what Joseph Smith is saying you would see that nothing you say logically follows from it.

    For instance, you say “The Father wanted a plan for the SALVATION of men”

    This is not what Joseph Smith said. What he said is that God had a plan and presented it to us. He was not seeking for a plan, but presenting one already established, and asking us to accept it.

    Everything you say is of this nature. You give a distorted interpretation of his words, and then ask a question based on the distortion. As such, nothing you say accurate reflects the doctrine.
    To top it all off you don’t even ask anything seriously, but do so in a mocking manner, preferring to belittle our doctrine rather than actually discuss it. The purpose of your post was not to seriously reflect on what was said, or even to get others to. It was to laugh at, point the finger, and mock not only the doctrine itself, but also those who would believe in it.

  21. 21 Kent
    June 30, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Shem, “If the Bible begins with the creation of this earth, it is reasonable to say that it deals only this this earth, and thus the statement that Christ made everything, as understood in that context, refers only to those things of this earth. Thus what I said is not inconsistant with the Bible.”

    The Bible doesn’t say it begins with the creation of this earth, it is you saying that it begins with the creation of this earth but you are not saying how or why it is saying what you claim. Are you just making an assumption because it is Mormon Doctrine? So no, I don’t accept this assumption that the beginning that is talked about in the Bible is just the beginning of the earth and I am giving reasons why I don’t believe this.

    Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” I know the KJV says the heaven and the earth but I use the NKJV and it agrees with the KJV in Hebrews 1 that says through Him (Jesus) the worlds (plural), not just the world (singular), were made and that the heavens (plural) are the work of Your (Jesus’) hands.

    So, again, “ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE” not just this earth.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 (NKJV)

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)

    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

    Hebrews 1:10 (NKJV)

    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

    Hebrews 1:10 (KJV)

    “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands”

    In closing, again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  22. 22 choosethechrist
    June 30, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Shem said, “To top it all off you don’t even ask anything seriously, but do so in a mocking manner, preferring to belittle our doctrine rather than actually discuss it. The purpose of your post was not to seriously reflect on what was said, or even to get others to. It was to laugh at, point the finger, and mock not only the doctrine itself, but also those who would believe in it.”

    I’m sorry that you see it this way, but it is not true at all. I am a critical thinker and those are the thoughts that came to my mind as I read what JS said. I am not laughing or mocking because like I said before, I take this quite seriously. You said you like a challenge and I like a challenge as well. I feel that I am offering you that challenge, but you don’t really want to address the points I am bringing up.

    I really would appreciate an answer to my question:

    What did Jesus need to save us from in the spirit world we were in before we came here?

    Heavenly Father came up with a plan that would allow us to become like him, a god.

    So, the plan wasn’t really for us to be reconciled to him and to be with him for all eternity as in Christianity, but for us to have a way to be like him?

    Does that also mean then, that this plan was not already in place in some way since he was able to progress from a mortal man to his state of being our god and heavenly father. Did our heavenly father have a savior too as a part of the same plan that we have? How did the others in the godly council get to be gods if they did not have the same plan that heavenly father came up with for us?

  23. 23 Kent
    June 30, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Another thing, i notice that Shem says that the beginning talked about in the Bible is “this earth”, but not the earth. This implies that there were other earths before this earth was created but I will point out one last time, for now, that the Bible says in Hebrews 1:10, “by whom He also made the worlds”, plural not singular, and “all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made”

    Christians, doesn’t all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made mean that nothing existed before everything was made? It is completely clear to me and I am sure to you also. It truly amazes me how someone cannot see what the text is plainly saying. Because if He wanted to say that the beginning spoke about in the Bible was just the beginning of this earth, God would have specifically stated this.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  24. 24 choosethechrist
    June 30, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    I agree with what you have said Kent.

  25. 25 Kent
    June 30, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Choose, I think part of the problem with us quoting what past leaders say such as, even Joseph Smith, and reading what the text is saying and thinking that is what Mormons believe now is that the teachings can change so they can be different in current practice.

    i had a Mormon misssonary tell me one time, “I take the word of a living prophet over scripture any day,” that says it all as current teachings can supercede anything that was taught in the past including scripture which we conclude should be etched in stone and should be unchanging.

    I read an interesting observation from an ex Mormon, an older lady, who said that it was instilled in her that she had to continually keep the commandments and that she never felt she could measure up, as that is what the previous living prophet had stressed but now Mormons are currently taught that it is about doing their best to try to keep the commendments, so it is now more about the effort than the result.

    So when we quote a previous prophet that says we can’t be where He (God) is unless we continually keep the commandments, the Mormons will point out that we are getting their doctrine wrong.

    To me it just makes sense to go by the Bible as it never changes and we always know where we stand on all things spiritual.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  26. 26 joshtried
    June 30, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    The Bible has changed…. Several times…
    And yes, current supercedes old. God gave commandment, then orders of genocide… Did the people day “but God, you just said….” Or did they do what God said? (honestly they didnt do EXACTLY what he said, but they did go to promised land and they did kill a lot of people)

  27. 27 joshtried
    June 30, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    And Jesus did not need to save us from heaven. My how you twist and corrupt… God was revealing his plan about this world, this lifetime to us. God said man will have agency and some of you wont choose me. Satan said “but God, why not make it so not one soul is lost?” Insert start of fight… There was no being saved from heaven. There was no Christ wantonly abandoning the masses. There was Christ submitting to Gods plan. Which he confirmed while submitting on this earth.

  28. 28 joshtried
    June 30, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    While i understand and appreciate your argument of “all things,” this is going to have to be a point where ambiguity is left to itself. This comes right back to the question of how was there God before there was nothing. “All things” would include God as well, since God is a thing in, if even in the abstract. So, through God, God was created, and without God God would not have been….. I dont understand that statement, but according to “all things” it must be true. So, how does God create Himself???

  29. 29 Kent
    June 30, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    Josh, God has always been, He is not a thing, a part of the creation so He was never created. God alone transcends all space and time and to say that He doesn’t limits the Almighty.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  30. 30 joshtried
    June 30, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    you want to interpret all as both all inclusive and in leaving stuff out… So, Kent, is “all” “ALL” or not?

  31. 31 joshtried
    July 1, 2012 at 4:08 am

    1Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    Now, i know many will say this is speaking solely against idols, but i dont think so. It clearly states there are many “g”ods. Now, something very interesting happens here as well. Jesus is clearly not called God when speaking in terms of the “One God.” The Father is called God, and Christ in this instance takes again a subservant role as a “Lord.”
    I do not doubt the divinity of Christ, or his place at the right hand of God. But these passages show several things. When speaking of the “One God”, then we are speaking of the Father, and that there are obviously many gods in the universe. Why this is not capitalized may be for many reasons, and i doubt i will know until i meet with Christ. It could be simply a sign of respect to God by scribes of Christian descent, and that could take a larger role in signifying that we are to be concerned with no other save “The Father.” “God” created this world and no other has claim on it. There are no other “G”ods who we are to worry about, and he knows of none, but he obviously knows other “g”ods.

  32. 32 joshtried
    July 1, 2012 at 4:35 am

    Another example of Father being “in charge” is john 5:26 ” For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
    Now, it does not specify when this power was given, but definitely that it was the Father’s to give alone. The Son at one point then did not have this power. Now, correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the Lutheran belief here is that free will is only attributable to God. Part of the reason for this is because i cannot as a man continue to live unless God wills it. Well, there you go Lutherans… Christ was GIVEN His power by The Father to continue living in himself.

  33. 33 joshtried
    July 1, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    I know i am jumping around recently… I just love reading.
    What exactly must we obey from Him who gives eternal salvation? Must we obey certain things only, and find it okay to blatantly set aside the rest?
    I find it interesting as i sit here writing that the rich man had done so right in his life and was denied the glories of heaven, and the thief accepted. The rich man was not willing to do everything asked of him. More could be said on this subject of course, but i have reading to get to. And perhaps i shoild not request so many answers at once.

  34. 34 choosethechrist
    July 1, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Kent, Yes it is true that it is a problem with the current LDS generation having the idea that just striving to keep the commandments is OK which is another huge can of worms for them. They really don’t have to be accountable for thinking all they have to do is try. If a prophet got something wrong, they have been taught god will understand and they will not be responsible for being led astray, but if you or I decide to reject mormonism after we have been presented with “the plan”, we have no chance of improving our place in heaven even though, according to them, we have been deceived by Satan. How does this make sense? Their merciful god will not understand our being deceived, but he will be understanding of the mormon being and let them into the celestial kingdom anyway? If the big plan was all put into place so that we could progress to be exactly like the god that heavenly father is, why is it ok to just strive to keep the commandments? Can any mormon really fulfill the plan and reach the goal to be a god like heavenly father who was able to do everything he was supposed to do in order to be our god if they are just striving to keep them? So, is it the current LDS prophets who are leading them astray because it is obvious to me that leaders like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Spencer Kimball, just to name a few, knew and understood that striving to keep the commandments was never the goal and keeping all of them was the requirement or did Josph Smith have it all wrong from the begining? According to this young generation of mormons, god will be ok with them doing their best, but the goal was perfection and since the only fear they really have is being cast into outer darkness, what fear should they have of the Lord as long as they remain in the church? I think most of them have created their own version of the plan in their minds and they simply believe what they want to believe even if it doesn’t agree with what they have been taught. They don’t believe in our hell. Their lesser kingdoms are better than our hell, but scripture is clear that the only thing we should fear is our God:

    Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.

    Yes, there is a hell, it is eternal, and real people are going to go there. Mormons don’t want to believe God would do this, the result is no fear of the Lord unless they leave the church. Where does their fear come from, the church, leave the church and go to outer darkness.

  35. 35 choosethechrist
    July 1, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Josh said, Now, i know many will say this is speaking solely against idols, but i dont think so. It clearly states there are many “g”ods.

    1 Corinthians 8:5 is clearly speaking of food being sacrifced to idols. Who had idols? The pagans and there were many pagan gods and there were pagan converts in the church. Paul addresses them on how they are to handle this in the church: 1 Corinthians 8:7-11

  36. 36 choosethechrist
    July 1, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Josh said, And Jesus did not need to save us from heaven. My how you twist and corrupt… God was revealing his plan about this world, this lifetime to us. God said man will have agency and some of you wont choose me. Satan said “but God, why not make it so not one soul is lost?” Insert start of fight… There was no being saved from heaven. There was no Christ wantonly abandoning the masses. There was Christ submitting to Gods plan. Which he confirmed while submitting on this earth.

    The whole point is to illustrate the way the mormon church defines “savior”.

    My Jesus is indeed Savior, he has saved me from an eternity in hell by reconciling me to God.

    LDS Jesus has saved the LDS from what? Jesus can’t save anyone from outer darkness. Men already had agency as spirits ie Lucifer choose to rebel and not submit to god, Jesus choose to submit to god.

    OK, so what does LDS Jesus save you from in this lifetime?

    Satan said “but God, why not make it so not one soul is lost?” This is a bad thing? Through Christian eyes the goal is to save souls from hell so that we can be with God for eternity. The LDS way is different though. Why would it be bad for god’s spirit children to remain as they were with god as spirits? Because they could not progress to Big G God like heavenly father. It is clear that the LDS goal is not to be with God, but to be a God.

    Is Jesus really your “savior”? It seems to me that savior is not really the best choice of words to describe LDS Jesus since he really didn’t save you from anything. He was a vehicle through which heavenly father’s plan of progression could take place, but I don’t see what he saved you from? It seems to me that LDS Jesus is more of an example of how to live in submission to God, but what did Jesus save you from?

  37. 37 markcares
    July 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Shem:
    Please refrain from ascribing motives to people. One example from post 20: ” preferring to belittle our doctrine rather than actually discuss it. The purpose of your post was not to seriously reflect on what was said, or even to get others to. It was to laugh at, point the finger, and mock not only the doctrine itself, but also those who would believe in it.” I give people quite a bit of freedom, – in fact, this is one of the most common criticisms I receive. I think one time way back you even mentioned that you wished I policed this blog more actively.
    I don’t appreciate such condescending comments. I’m asking you to write more maturely.

  38. 38 joshtried
    July 1, 2012 at 11:11 pm

    Choose:
    This is a bad thing?
    It is when it is contrary to the will of God.

    Why would it be bad for god’s spirit children to remain as they were with god as spirits?
    Why did God say to create this world at all? Why did God create us at all? If God did not have something for us to do, i doubt we would have been created. There is a plan and a purpose here that you are unwilling to allow yourself to see.

    since he really didn’t save you from anything.
    How does he not save us from eternally being separated from God? God wanted the choice to return or not to be in tact. Before Christs part in all of this, return was only theoretical. Had Christ failed in his mission, we would all be damned to hell.

    It is clear that the LDS goal is not to be with God, but to be a God.
    Our goal is to have ALL that our heavenly Father would give us. It is possible to look at this life as a reflection of heaven. Would you choose to “barely make it by” in this world, or to be “fulfilled in every way possible”?
    We do believe our choices here have ramifications in heaven. We will not ONLY be judged based on saved or not. Following this, we WILL be judged on our works.

    1 Corinthians 3:11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before 1 God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

    You would have it so that only “saved or not” matters, but this is simply not the case. Our “works” have eternal consequences, and we openly recognize this. Our “works” that hold true will be rewarded. I dont know about you, but i love rewards, especially from God. It is not wrong to work toward a greater reward. If you are happy with your reward, I am happy for you. If you are not, dont take it out on me. I am not in your way in any sense. What God chooses to give me is none of your concern. If you want what i have, simply ask how God and I came to that agreement. Dont chastise what you dont want to understand.

  39. 39 choosethechrist
    July 2, 2012 at 2:29 am

    Josh, you have still missed my key points and avoided really answering my questions based on the points I have made.

    You said, “How does he not save us from eternally being separated from God? God wanted the choice to return or not to be in tact. Before Christs part in all of this, return was only theoretical. Had Christ failed in his mission, we would all be damned to hell.”

    Like I said before, the goal of mormonism is to progress to a state of godhood which results in you going to your own planets to be a God. Heavenly father will be on his planet and you will be on yours. That is eternal separation from God.

    “Had Christ failed in his mission, we would all be damned to hell.”

    In mormonism it is possible that Christ could have failed his mission and damned us all to hell? Shem said, “Christ was God, or he held the title of God, with all the authority and power that goes with it. However, he was not in a state of Eternal Life, of godhood, until after his resurrection, for that state of existence requires a physical body.” In fact, Christ was so powerful that he created this Earth! LDS Jesus was God before he came to fulfill his mission, yet it is possible that LDS Jesus, God in fact, could have failed us?

    In Christianity, it is not even a possiblity in my mind that God and Jesus could have failed us. This is part of God’s revelation to us that HE is the one who saves us nothing else can or will save us, but God. Jesus was to be our savior, he knew his mission and he completed it. He kept the will of the Father. Our God knew what the outcome would be in advance since He knows everything. Our way to salvation was never in jeopardy.

    And you are right, mormons will be judged based on their works:

    “The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be “judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified” (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God’s laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God’s perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.” ~http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html

  40. 40 choosethechrist
    July 2, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    I said, Satan said “but God, why not make it so not one soul is lost?” This is a bad thing?

    Josh said, It is when it is contrary to the will of God.

    This statement blows my mind. This says to me that you think God is OK with losing souls in order to save the souls who are willing to accept the LDS god’s plan of progression for souls to achieve a state of godhood. Not only that, but LDS god was willing to risk losing all of us if LDS Jesus had failed in his mission. That is pretty hard for me to swallow.

    This is NOT the Christian way! God’s will in Christianity is for ALL souls to be saved and reconciled to Him through his son Jesus Christ. The will of our God IS salvation for ALL men through him.

    Josh said, You would have it so that only “saved or not” matters, but this is simply not the case.

    So, Yes Josh, saved or not MATTERS because our works mean nothing to God when is comes to our restoration with Him. Our works can not and do not reconcile us to God in anyway shape or form. We have to be saved and reconciled to God before we can start walking with Jesus and living the Christian life in submission and obedience to God’s commands.

    Galatians 5:1
    So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.

    I am not working for God’s rewards. That does not mean I don’t enjoy all that God has blessed me with. I will appreciate whatever God has for me, but the rewards are not what motivates me.

    You say you like rewards Josh, in Christianity, there will be no rewards for those who have rejected the gospel. However, those who have accepted the gospel will be rewarded:

    “….Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the “gold, silver, and precious stones” of good works in Christ’s name, obedience and fruitfulness—dedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the “wood, hay and stubble” of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.

    The gold, silver and precious stones in the lives of believers will survive God’s refining fire (v. 13), and believers will be rewarded based on those good works—how faithfully we served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27), how well we obeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9), etc. We will have to give an account for our actions, whether they were truly indicative of our position in Christ. The fire of God’s judgment will completely burn up the “wood, hay and stubble” of the words we spoke and things we did which had no eternal value. “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12 ). ” ~http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html

  41. 41 joshtried
    July 2, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    “The will of our God IS salvation for ALL men through him.”
    Really? So according to you the theory behind the Lutheran religion is completely baseless, as God would have ALL souls return? Since God is not FORCING us all to return, then Lutherans must be 100% wrong?

    Josh said, You would have it so that only “saved or not” matters, but this is simply not the case.
    So, Yes Josh, saved or not MATTERS because our works mean nothing to God when is comes to our restoration with Him.

    You didnt even read what i wrote. I said “you would have it ONLY saved or not matters,” and you reply with yes it matters. I did not say that it didnt matter. I said there was more to it than that. i said “We will not ONLY be judged based on saved or not.”
    You even step in with the same answer i gave regarding this subject with your entire last paragraph… You specifically comment on believers, i showed how BOTH GROUPS will be judged based on works, AFTER the whole saved or not thing is hashed out.

    “This statement blows my mind.”
    How exactly does it blow your mind when i say it, but it does not blow your mind when i debated for days that Christ died for EVERYONE and all the Lutheran people here said no he didnt… I did not say that God was “okay with it.” I said that was his plan. I dont get to question God at this junction in time. I am lucky that i get to know the plan at all.
    I do agree with Lutherans that God is all knowing. We know from scripture that God “was” before the earth was created. We know that there was a war in heaven prior to the creation of this world, coupled with the fall of Satan. We know that if God is all knowing, that he would know that Adam would fall. We know that he would have known that there would need to be a way for man to be “redeemed from the fall”, and so Christ was prepared. We know that he would have known that some people would not return to him. You can argue it is “not humane” all you want. These are things we know.

    Not only that, but LDS god was willing to risk losing all of us if LDS Jesus had failed in his mission.
    You are right that i used a poor example. I used “If Christ failed” when i should have used “If Christ was not sent at all we would still be damned to hell.” The emphasis was not on the “failure” but on the result had something happened and Christ not completed the mission that we know he has.

    “I am not working for God’s rewards. That does not mean I don’t enjoy all that God has blessed me with. I will appreciate whatever God has for me, but the rewards are not what motivates me.”
    I do not know the state of your salvation, but i know the state of mine. Here, i will use the example of school…
    We know there is a “pass/fail” system in school today. for 98% of schools that number is a 70%. There are those comfortable graduating with 70% of the knowledge. There are other that are not comfortable with less than a 90%. It is not the 90%’s fault that the other people are only getting a 70%. If you want to be satisfied with 70%, be my guest. My point is YOU KNOW that there is going to be a judgement on works. You decide if they are mandatory in your life or not. I have decided that they are mandatory, because i want to be at that 90% mark. Anyone that decides they are not mandatory is satisfied at the 70% mark.
    The thought of knowing that there is more that I COULD have received would forever be with me. To know a little effort here cost me gravely later on is not something i am willing to live with. I am glad you are happy with all you have. I am also happy with all i have, but I am NOT willing to be satisfied with it as God HAS promised so much more.

  42. 42 joshtried
    July 2, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    “Like I said before, the goal of Mormonism is to progress to a state of godhood which results in you going to your own planets to be a God.”

    So, since Christ created this planet, He is separated from God? The Holy Ghost is separated from God because he is in a state of Godhood? He is separated from God because he ministers to us on this world? i truly dont understand what you are trying to say here. IF we were “Gods”, would we not be able to visit with our Father when we liked? You seem to make it into something it is not. We are not saying we would forever be separate from God. We say that we would be responsible for more in heaven that simply sitting on a cloud. We give this life a purpose and a meaning. You have it as some kind of curse that God has erred in some way, in some judgement, and simple return to heaven is the cure.

  43. 43 shematwater
    July 2, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    Let us just lay out the actually events and the plan so that there is no misunderstanding.

    OUr Heavenly Father had countless spirit children. Like any loving parent He wanted every single one of them achieve their highest potential, which potential was achieving the same type of life that He Himself had. Knowing that such a life was impossible while his children were spirits he instituted a plan whereby they could gain the physical bodies needed, as well as the experience required to achieve that potential.

    Let us make a first note, just so that people don’t get too confused: I am not going into detail on how our Father became God. That is not important at this time, and thus is not part of this explanation. However, it must be understood that the plan he instituted was not new, but was the same plan by which all gods have progressed.

    The plan was set up by the counsel of Gods, of which our Father was the Head. After the plan was made we were all called into a grand counsel, at which the plan was presented in detail. The Gods would create the earth. We would be born into physical bodies on the earth. The nature of the birth would require a veil to be placed over our minds so that we could not remember our previous life. The reason for this was to test us, force us to live by faith (as had not been fully needed living in God’s precense). While in this life we would experience our first spiritual death, as we would be separated from our Father. We also understood that the nature of mortality was a powerful force, and that none of us were capable of overcoming it on own our, which would prevent us from ever returning to our heavenly home. For this reason the plan required a savior, through whom we would be enabled to overcome that natural state, and thus be enabled to return. Even with this redemption being made we would be expected to strive to obey all the commands that God would give tous through those selected to be his prophets. After our physical death we would have to wait for a time until this redemption was made, as through it we would also regain our physical bodies in immortality. At some point the veil was to be removed from our minds and we would stand to be judged for our actions in mortality. We knew before we came to this earth that not everyone would make it, as not everyone would submit to the will of the Father.

    After this plan was presented to us Lucifer stood and offered an amendment to the plan. “I will be the redeemer, and I will insure that no one is lost.” This was rejected by the Father, as well as Jehovah, who stood and declared that the plan that the Father had presented was good and that he was willing to submit to all things that the Father saw fit. This started the war in heaven; not a war or weapons and fighting, but a war of words, a war in which Lucifer did all he could to persuade as many of his brethren to join him and support his ammendment to the plan. The leader of the other side was Michael.

    Now, Lucifer’s plan was never even an option, so when one third of the spirit children raised their voice in oppositon to the Father they were cast out, as such cannot remain in the presence of God. The rest were granted the privilage of being born on this earth, participating in the plan, and having the possibility of attaining their greatest potential as divine beings.

    A final note: What made Lucifer’s plan a bad thing is in two parts.
    First, it destroys the agency of man, without which we could never have become like our Father. Yes we would have all returned to heaven, but without the trials and testing of this life throgh our agency we could not have fully progressed, and thus the great reward that God seeks to grant to his children would not have been possible.
    Second, his plan, if read in detail, required the Father to step down as the Head of the Gods and give that postion to Lucifer, for Lucifer, in his current position, could have done nothing. Thus it would have dethroned the true God and replaced Him with one who could not be God.

    Hope this helps.

  44. 44 shematwater
    July 2, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    KENT

    I am actually not denying that God the Father created many worlds. I am actually not denying that Christ created many worlds. I am saying that the Bible is only an account of this world, and thus it must be understood in the context of this world.
    I find it interesting that your entire basis for rejecting the premise that I give is that your version of the Bible gives a slightly different translation than mine; only proving that the Bible has been changed over the years, despite others claims to the contrary.
    Of course there are translations that pluralize only heavens but leave earth singular, like Young’s Literal Translation. Actually in this version it actually translates it as preparing and not creating. It also renders John 1: 3 as “all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.” A very different idea than what you subscribe to.

    All I am saying is that you should not discount something simply because your version doesn’t seem to agree with it. I prefer the King James Version, but I am willing to read others to see if they have a better understanding of the truth in them.

  45. 45 JBR
    July 2, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    “I am not going into detail on how our Father became God. That is not important at this time, and thus is not part of this explanation. However, it must be understood that the plan he instituted was not new, but was the same plan by which all gods have progressed.”

    That’s enough for us to read, for that sums up Mormonism which declares God as a liar when he said:

    Isaiah 45:6
    I am the Lord, and there is none else.

    1 Kings 8:60
    That all the people of the earth may know that the Lord is God, and that there is none else.

    In short… Mormonism sure sounds like Polytheism, but has to mask it like a lion who prowls for it’s prey on the weak and unsuspecting.

  46. 46 joshtried
    July 2, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Christianity is polytheistic, only it wraps them up into one God. You want to say that admittedly multiple personages are part of a single God. All personages have the “God” power, but are not in themselves a different God, even though the “son God” submits to the “father God.” The “holy ghost God” submits to the “father God.” You are perfectly content with 3 “personages,” each holding the title and authority of God. But heaven forbid that an individual within this group be a separate “God.”

    Isaiah 45:6 I am Jesus Christ, and there is none else (who can save you)

    1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the Jesus Christ is God, and that there is none else (that can save them).

    Many times people have said that interpreting is difficult from one language to another. You are to caught up in the specific english language of some scripture that you miss the point.

  47. 47 choosethechrist
    July 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Josh, God does want all of us to be saved and return, but it is up to us to accept his offer of salvation and be saved and we do not view everyone receiving a resurrected body as a “general salvation” like mormons do, because some of those resurrected bodies are going to be thrown into the lake of fire and that is not salvation. It seems to me that you are viewing much of what I and others have said through mormon eyes in regards to how things are defined in mormon doctrine and teachings vs Christianity. Yes, we will be judged on works, but we are not saved by them and there are 2 different kinds of judgments. As a Christian, my emphasis always is going to be on salvation first, followed by obedience and submission to God. Did you click on the link I provided which explains our view on the way we will be judged and the result of that judgement? This is important because according to Christianity, and what the Bible says, most mormons are probably going to be judged as unsaved, nonbelievers which will result in an eternity in hell which is why I am ephasizing just what it is that Jesus saved you from.

    Jesus saved me from an eternity in hell, a true SAVIOR indeed.

    “Christ died for EVERYONE and all the Lutheran people here said no he didnt”
    I’m not sure of the context of this statement and I am not Lutheran, but from where I am coming from Christ died for all: Christ’s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL, but EFFICIENT only for those who believe. Men are CONDEMNED because they have rejected the Person and WORK of Jesus Christ and refused God’s only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

    “My point is YOU KNOW that there is going to be a judgement on works. You decide if they are mandatory in your life or not.”
    Once again, this is not about the necessity of our works, because we have to be saved first, by the Christian definition, before our works matter. Step 1 for the Christian is get right with God, be reconciled to him through the work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. Step 2 for the Christian is find out what pleases God and DO IT! Study the Bible and learn how to live your life in obedience and submission to God and yes this is “mandatory” for the Christian we know that we must live our lives in obedience to God. I think that mormons have this misperception that Christians think we don’t have to do what God says and live in obedience or submission to God, but that is not true. We must live in submission to God, but that is not what saves us, Jesus saves us.

    “Like I said before, the goal of Mormonism is to progress to a state of godhood which results in you going to your own planets to be a God.”

    For Christians, it is all about JESUS and what JESUS did for US. One of the biggest things that God has taught me since I became a Christian is that it is not about ME. It is about what Jesus did for me and what I am to do for OTHERS through him. It is about being a servant of Christ. If I place myself under the law of mormonism, I am rejecting what Jesus did for me and placing an emphasis on what I can do to earn my eternal rewards to receive a higher place for myself in godhood and be served which is not the picture of humility that I get when reading my Bible.

  48. 48 choosethechrist
    July 3, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    I think you explained things well Shem.

    “The rest were granted the privilage of being born on this earth, participating in the plan, and having the possibility of attaining their greatest potential as divine beings.”

    This statement is key in illustrating the difference between who Jesus is.

    Jesus is my savior, a true savior because he saved me from eternal hell.

    LDS Jesus is a way to attain your greatest potential as divine beings.

  49. 49 shematwater
    July 3, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    I will take a different view than Josh.

    As I showed, the Bible is an account of this Earth, and thus must be understood in the context of this Earth. In regards to this Earth there is no other God other than the Godhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). This we do not deny.
    So, to say that I make God to be a liar is in itself a lie, as it twists my words into a meaning they never had. We have no other God, and we never will. This does not mean that other god’s to not exist, but that they have no dealings with us.

  50. 50 shematwater
    July 3, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    CHOOSE

    “Jesus is my savior, a true savior because he saved me from eternal hell.”

    You didn’t understand what I said if you actually think this is not what we believe. He is our savior, because he saved us from an eternal Hell. However, He is much more than a savior, because not only does he pull us out of that hell, but he makes it possible for us to rise to the greatest heights we can. That is the true difference, and what it seems you are failing to understand. It is not that he does something different, but that he does more.

    “the goal of Mormonism is to progress to a state of godhood which results in you going to your own planets to be a God.”

    This is also not true. Our goal is to attain all the blessings the Father has offered, but it is a common misconception that we go off to our own isolated planet. Read in depth and you will learn that all the faithful who are exalted as gods will live on this planet with Christ, and from here we will go out to do the work of gods, but will always return here as our home.
    Remember that Christ taught that “Blessed are the ameek: for they shall inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5: 5). This is confirmed in Psalms 37: 11 “But the meek shall inherit the earth…” It is also written, in D&C 88: 17-20 that “the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
    Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
    For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
    That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.”

    The Earth itself will be given a Celestial Glory, and the meek and pure in heart who lived on it in mortality will live on it in Celestial Glory, being in the presence of the Father.
    I understand that even many members get the idea of going off and having their own private worlds, and I don’t know that we will not be making our own worlds, but we will not be living on them. We will all be living here, on this earth.

    And just to clarify on the lake of fire and brimstone: We see this as being symbolic, as death by fire is commonly considered the most painful form of death. Thus to be in the lake of fire is to be in a state of torment and misery throughout eternity, not to literally be in fire.
    Those who are cast out with Satan are those that endure this torment forever. They have no escape from it.

    Now, Kent I believe quoted Revelations 21: 8 that says “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” and declared that we are wrong in our doctrine of Heaven, as this says that those sinners are in hell.
    However, I would point out that this is not what it says. It says they will have their part in the lake, but does not say they are there forever. They will have their part in that lake, but it will not last forever. They will pay the price of their sins, having rejected the payment that Christ made, and then they will be granted entrance into the lowest levels of heaven.

    However, even those who enter heaven, but do not gain exaltation, can be rightly described as being damned and thus being in torment. To know what you could have had but failed to achieve is an exquisite torment that will torture all those who do not attain all the blessings. Those in the Terrestrial and Telestial will also feel the torment of having their family connections severed. All those who are not exalted will be damned to a stagnate existence, as they can never have children and thus can never increase. All of this is a form of damnation, and thus anything less than exaltation and all the blessings of God is damnation.
    In other words, one can be saved from Hell, but still be damned to an inferior existence.

    As to our motivations: It is not all about us, as you insinuate. God’s work is all about us, that I agree wtih, as he has stated such. He does everything for our benefit. As such, everything we must be for his honor.
    Proverbs 17: 6 “Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.”
    Our glory is our Father. However, his glory is our children, which we cannot have if we are not like him. I don’t know about you, but I want to give my Father all the glory I can, and for that end I seek exaltation.

  51. 51 JBR
    July 3, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    “We have no other God, and we never will. This does not mean that other god’s to not exist, but that they have no dealings with us.”

    Yet: “there is none else beside him” means exactly that. Mormonism’s explaination is contrary to the simple english.

    Deuteronomy 4:35
    Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

    Deuteronomy 4:39 …… the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

    1 Kings 8:60
    …..the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

    Isaiah 45:5
    I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

    Isaiah 45:6
    …., that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    Isaiah 45:14
    Thus saith the LORD, ….. ; and there is none else, there is no God.

    Isaiah 45:21
    ….there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Isaiah 45:22
    ….. for I am God, and there is none else

    Isaiah 46:9
    …. I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    It’s rather obvious Mormonism is playing a shell game with words …. and for what purpose?

    1 Peter 5:8
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

  52. 52 JBR
    July 3, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    “We have no other God, and we never will. This does not mean that other god’s to not exist, but that they have no dealings with us.”

    God’s pov:

    Jeremiah 14:14
    Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

  53. 53 Kent
    July 3, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    There are only two possible destinations in the aferlife, those who have the Son (Jesus), who are written in the book of life, have eternal life but minus being gods themselves, while those who are not written in the book of life have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which in this context is them being part of the whole lake of fire and it is not a time designation of a duration of time being there. It could only be a time designation if the lake of fire itself was not a permanent place and it is obvious it is a permanent place as the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be there forever.

    So, yes, two possbilities, spriitual life (eternal life) or spiritual death (eternal death) in the lake of fire.

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    1 John 5:11-13

    11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    Revelation 20:11-14

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    In closing once again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  54. 54 joshtried
    July 3, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “I will take a different view than Josh.”
    I am not sure what view point is different Shem… I am not saying that we have other “gods” we worship or “know” in a personal way. I am saying we know they exist.

    JBR said: Jeremiah 14:14
    1Cor 8:5 said: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    Are you saying that whoever wrote Corinthians was a liar, and that the bible contains errors? That to me says plain as day there are other “gods” in existence. It doesnt go into (these gods are false), it goes into (as there be many gods)…… It does not say (for man imagines many gods), or any subtext there of. It could have even said (as these idols are held to be gods) if it was talking about the idol imaginings of man… It could have said this hundreds of ways to refute the existence of other beings considered “god”. The way it is written, it did NOT. It also speaks of “lords” which is how this particular chapter describes Jesus Christ. There are lords many (or those like Jesus Christ). I am still not saying that their existence has any bearing on our salvation, or that one of them should be worshiped. What i am saying is that this is what the Bible claims exist.

  55. 55 joshtried
    July 3, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Kent, you said: It could only be a time designation if the lake of fire itself was not a permanent place and it is obvious it is a permanent place as the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be there forever.

    I have looked and not previously found it.. can you show me where it says satan will be in this lake forever? I have seen him chained for a season and loosed for a season…

  56. 56 Kent
    July 3, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Josh, it comes in revelation 20, after the text where it says he is chained for a season.

    Revelation 20:10

    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Shem was responding to something I posted on another thread.

  57. 57 Kent
    July 3, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Josh, it is the bottomless pit that Satan is chained and then let out of, and, as I showed, he is cast into the lake of fire forever after he is released for a season from the bottomless pit.

    Revelation 20:1-4

    1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

    Again:

    Revelation 20:10

    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  58. 58 joshtried
    July 3, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    The first one i knew about. The second apparently i had missed several times, even when specifically looking for it… I enjoy reading revelations, and must have read that book alone like 8 times (or more) by now. i am probably far from understanding all of it, but it is very interesting none the less.

    something else interesting here is this:
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

    Hell itself seems to be cast into this lake… interesting concept. It also shows many different ways of punishment
    1. Bottomless pit.
    2. Hell.
    3. Lake of fire and brimstone.
    4. Death.

    If death is cast into the lake of fire though, does this mean that nothing will from that point forward die? The devil also does not appear to die. I have often wondered how Satan came to be in his existence of being nonredeemable. For this, i find Genesis very interesting. Man was cast out specifically so that he did not take of the tree of life and live forever in his sins. Obviously this is not spoken of in Christian or LDS theology, but he does not ever seem to be listed as one that can die. Perhaps he was in a similar state and did take from both trees? It does seem that souls in general CAN die with the whole second death thing… So why does Satan never “die”?

  59. 59 Kent
    July 4, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Joshtried said, “If death is cast into the lake of fire though, does this mean that nothing will from that point forward die? The devil also does not appear to die. I have often wondered how Satan came to be in his existence of being nonredeemable. For this, i find Genesis very interesting. Man was cast out specifically so that he did not take of the tree of life and live forever in his sins. Obviously this is not spoken of in Christian or LDS theology, but he does not ever seem to be listed as one that can die. Perhaps he was in a similar state and did take from both trees? It does seem that souls in general CAN die with the whole second death thing… So why does Satan never “die”?”

    The important thing is that it shows that there are only two possible destinations in the afterlife, eternal spiritual life in heaven or eternal spiritual death forever having one’s part in the lake of fire (in their own part of the whole lake of fire) and never being released from there Please take to heart the following passages and let go of the notion that even if you don’t make it to eternal life, at the very least you will be released to the telestial kingdom or that you will go to the terrestial kingdom.

    John 3:36

    36 HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; AND HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.”

    1 John 5:11-13

    11 And this is the testimony: THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS LIFE; HE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE SON OF GOD DOES NOT HAVE LIFE. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    Revelation 20:11-14

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 AND ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

    In closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  60. 60 Kent
    July 4, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Joshtried said, “If death is cast into the lake of fire though, does this mean that nothing will from that point forward die? The devil also does not appear to die. I have often wondered how Satan came to be in his existence of being nonredeemable. For this, i find Genesis very interesting. Man was cast out specifically so that he did not take of the tree of life and live forever in his sins. Obviously this is not spoken of in Christian or LDS theology, but he does not ever seem to be listed as one that can die. Perhaps he was in a similar state and did take from both trees? It does seem that souls in general CAN die with the whole second death thing… So why does Satan never “die”?”

    I believe that all the bad things and people, those not found written in the book of life (eternal life), including death, are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity and that everythng good is forever in the new heaven and earth and that this occurs at the end of the ages. Again, but only those two futures await us and, again, don’t hold on to the notion of a telestial kingdom or a terrestial kingdom if you don’t make it to eternal life and, also, eternal life doesn’t include being a god ourselves.

    Revelation 21:1-8

    21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

    5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

    6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    in closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  61. 61 Kent
    July 4, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Josh, Shem, of any other Mormons, I do hope at least, if you take the time to read the passages I have been posting here, that you can see why I believe what I believe.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  62. 62 joshtried
    July 4, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Kent, do you agree that there will be different rewards for different people in heaven?

  63. 63 JBR
    July 4, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Josh,
    You would actually use 1 Cor 8:5 … is that out of sheer desperation due to you have nothing else to justify Polytheism ?

    How about 1 Cor 8:4
    “As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.”

    Maybe in your haste you just happened to not read the last part……
    “we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.”

    –>> “we know … that there is none other God but one” < BoM
    —-> Joseph Smith and any of the Mormon prophets are fulfilling Jeremiah 14:14

    Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.”

    Clear enough?

  64. 64 choosethechrist
    July 4, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.

    ~ John 8:36, NLT

  65. 65 joshtried
    July 4, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    I understand why you think it is only referencing idols.. Let me try it this way.. Why would you compare anyone or anything with God or Jesus??? Why would you say others actually exist if the dont? You also seem to take this as me saying any of them matter in any way for our salvation, which i clearly didnt. I said they exist, based on this scripture alone.. Then take into account all the times God says “us” or “our” or any number of plural terms..

    You still havent proven a false prophecy. The only one that is trying at all is Echo. Until then, all your talk of falsehoods are nothing.

  66. 66 Kent
    July 4, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Josh, yes I do believe there are rewards in heaven but we don’t know what those rewards are but I also do believe that in no way, shape, or form that the those rewards mean that people can become gods. As even if there are other gods, which I don’t believe is the case, but if there were, the Bible doesn’t teach that individual people progress to become one of them and I certainly don’t believe God was a man first who progressed to become God.

    Again, can you see why I am saying I believe that there are two choices in the afterlife, eternal life in heaven (those written in the book of life), which is described as the new heaven and the new earth at the end of the ages, or eternal death (those not written in the book of life) in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone?

    Read again the passages below, this time I am posting the KJV, I usually use the NKJV because it is an easier read, but I know Mormons usually use the KJV.

    1 John 5:11-13

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Revelation 20:15

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Note: when the Bible says that the unbelieving have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone it is not a time designation it is as a part of a whole, one’s part in the whole lake of fire. So it doesn’t mean that people will be released from there after a time being there.

    From Webster’s dictionary

    Definition of Part (noun)

    1. A DIVISION OR PORTION OF A WHOLE
    2. The melody or score for a particular voice or instrument
    3. A spare piece for a machine
    4. Duty, Function
    5. One of the sides in a dispute
    6. Role: also: an actor’s lines in a play

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  67. 67 joshtried
    July 5, 2012 at 1:54 am

    1. Josh, yes I do believe there are rewards in heaven but we don’t know what those rewards are but I also do believe that in no way, shape, or form that the those rewards mean that people can become gods.
    1a. since there are different rewards, then it is POSSIBLE that they are tiered or different “level” rewards.

    2. the Bible doesn’t teach that individual people progress to become one of them and I certainly don’t believe God was a man first who progressed to become God.
    2a. john 5:26 ” For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
    This shows that there was one point in Christ’s “life” that he did not have everything that the father had. This is a “progress” in his abilities. I do in certain ways agree with Lutherans here that one “quality” of “God” would be that He should be “self sustaining” or able to exist on his own. Christ only had life in the Father just like the rest of us, until the Father gave Christ life in Himself. It does not say when exactly this transition took place, but that it did.

    3. Again, can you see why I am saying I believe that there are two choices in the afterlife,
    3a. If I were in your place, i would say “for the afterlife…”since we dont choose once dead. But overall, you are correct that there are 2 destinations, heaven or Fire Lake… We have never claimed different. What we have said is that heaven has different levels (see different rewards….), and that it is possible that people can come from Fire Lake. We are not saying everything can come from Fire Lake, as it is obvious there are at least 3 that remain there forever (definitely more depending on # of false prophets)…

    4. part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone
    4a. You are discussing “part” as in the overall spacial dimensions of said lake. We are discussing “part” as the forever time of the lake. From this scripture alone, it is not possible to accurately choose one side or the other. I can definitely understand why you say what you say, but cannot say that yours is the only interpretation. It does say that the “second death” occurs at the Fire Lake, but it does not say whether this is immediate (as in you get to the lake and are dead forever), or if being in Fire Lake forever is the second death. It is ambiguous at best. If this death is an immediate thing, and you are kind of reanimated (for lack of a better term), then it would be possible to “reenter heaven” after having bore the punishment for your sins, which punishment is death. If the punishment is the latter, where the second death is the forever instance of being in Fire Lake, the it does seem less likely that you return..

  68. July 5, 2012 at 6:11 am

    Josh,

    Because of my belief in salvation through faith alone, Mormons have often said to me: “So you can just sin all you want and it doesn’t matter” as if somehow Mormons have the idea that we can’t sin all we want to and still go to heaven.

    Of course, we don’t believe anyone can just sin all they want to and still go to heaven.

    But in reality, by Mormon beliefs, everyone can sin all they want to and still go to heaven. Right? (maybe with the exception of Mormons?)

  69. 69 Kent
    July 5, 2012 at 7:03 am

    Echo said, “Because of my belief in salvation through faith alone, Mormons have often said to me: “So you can just sin all you want and it doesn’t matter” as if somehow Mormons have the idea that we can’t sin all we want to and still go to heaven.

    Of course, we don’t believe anyone can just sin all they want to and still go to heaven.

    But in reality, by Mormon beliefs, everyone can sin all they want to and still go to heaven. Right? (maybe with the exception of Mormons?)”

    Yes, it is amazing about they complain about us not getting their doctrine right when they flat out try to put words into our mouths that we are saying that because we are saved, that gives us a license to sin. When none of us has ever said that.

    In fact I have said that I believe that because we are saved by the blood of Jesus that His blood gives us a change of heart that gives us a desire to please Him and to live moral lives but what we do still does not contribute on bit to our being saved as it is is and will always be by nothing but the blood of Jesus.

    I have also said that if anyone is living a sinful lifestyle, that can be evidence that this person is not a true believer in Christ at all and that their enternal destiny is in danger of them ending up in the lake which burns with fire and brimastone.

    Echo, in a way the Mormons have it backwards because they do say that the great majority of people, even those who sin all they want, will eventually get to be in at least the lowest kingdom of heaven, the telestial kingdom.

    Echo, what do you think about some of the Mormons here saying the people who will have their part in the lake of fire means that they will not be there permantly?

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  70. 70 choosethechrist
    July 5, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Echo said, But in reality, by Mormon beliefs, everyone can sin all they want to and still go to heaven. Right? (maybe with the exception of Mormons?)

    Kent said, Echo, in a way the Mormons have it backwards because they do say that the great majority of people, even those who sin all they want, will eventually get to be in at least the lowest kingdom of heaven, the telestial kingdom.

    I think both of these statements relate to what I have been trying to get at regarding what Jesus really saved anyone from in mormonism. The LDS here have stated he saved them from hell, but we know that our hell is eternal and their “hell” can pretty much be anything from outer darkness to the telestial kingdom or the terrestial kingdom. What did Jesus do for any of the people in the lesser kingdoms? I have a hard time seeing the salvation of Jesus in mormonism at all in spite of their best efforts to convince me otherwise. In mormonism, I see Jesus there as being an example of character for them to follow, but it really just comes down to what they choose to do, not what Jesus did. The choices they make, the things they do, and how good they are have more of an effect on where they end up than what Jesus really did for them through his life, death, and resurrection.

    Echo said, But in reality, by Mormon beliefs, everyone can sin all they want to and still go to heaven.

    Great observation! This rings true in many ways as we have been told that their god is more loving and merciful than ours so for us who are living our lives in submission and obedience to god just as well as any mormon, we get a lesser degree of glory or heaven. For them, they can’t live in submission or obedience to god any better than we can, but they have “the fullness of the gospel” so they can achieve a better place in heaven just for choosing the “right church”.

    So, is it choose the right church or choose Jesus? I have yet to hear any mormon missionary try to tell me it’s about Jesus. They come to my door with a message of Joseph Smith and my need for the right church.

    And, is it Jesus saves or is it the LDS church saves?

    I also find it interesting that the worst kind of punishment in mormonism is reserved for those who leave the LDS church. Leaving the LDS church is worse than what kind of person you are. Jesus can do nothing for you if you are walking with Jesus, but choose to leave the LDS church? If you have choosen Christ, you can be damned to outer darkness for leaving a church? Nothing but the blood of Jesus? Now that’s twisted!

  71. 71 choosethechrist
    July 5, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    One more thought…

    Echo said, But in reality, by Mormon beliefs, everyone can sin all they want to and still go to heaven.

    From obseving many mormons sin while living their lives, it is apparent to me that they either really believe they can sin all they want and still go to heaven because they are mormon and have faith in that or they really just don’t have the same concept of what sin is that we do. Jesus said our thoughts and sins of omission count as sin not just our outward acts of sin.

    Jeremiah 6:14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.

  72. 72 joshtried
    July 5, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    I am going to answer in a way that is probably not wanted, but i have probably overstepped where i should be answering, thus causing confusion. It was wrong of me to insinuate that by their receiving punishment they would be allowed into heaven. this was not what i was trying to get at, or where i was trying to take it. i fritzed and went a direction that i should not have. What i wrote above is not taught by LDS (that i am aware of). Shem has done a much better job of explaining this. I went too theoretical for my own good, and thus ended in problems. My point was to differentiate the “part”, which i initially hit on which was “time vs space.”

  73. 73 shematwater
    July 5, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    JOSH

    When I said different view I meant perspective, or a different way of explaining. Not exactly a different idea.

    CHOOSE

    You said “for us who are living our lives in submission and obedience to god just as well as any mormon, we get a lesser degree of glory or heaven.”

    I will be perfectly blunt, and I will probably get a lot of heat for this, but you need to hear it.
    You are not living your lives in submission and obedience as well as any Mormon. Better then some, yes, but not nearly as much as the vast majority. You have not accepted his true gospel. You have rejected baptism by his appointed servants. You have rejected the ordinances that he has declared are required for our salvation. Yes, you may not lie as much, or more be morally chaste, and may obey all the basic commandments that deal with our general conduct; but until you submit to the ordinances he has laid out you will never be on the same level as those who have, and that is the simply fact of the matter. That is the difference.
    I am sorry if you find this offensive, but honestly, I find the comparison you are making just as offensive.

    As to what Christ did, if you actually paid attention to what I wrote you would know. Without his atonement we would all be in Outer Darkness with Satan for the rest of Eternity. Because of his Atonement the vast majority of us will be saved from this fate. Because of his atonement it has been made possible for us to not only escape this fate, but to progress and receive everything that the Father has. It is not our work alone that determines this, but the grace of God, for without his grace even being brought out of Outer Darkness we would still only be in the Telestial World.
    How many times do I have to repeat this.

  74. 74 shematwater
    July 5, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Speaking on other matters (not just to Choose, but to everyone), Christ has saved us from an eternity is the depths of hell, or what the scriptures call Outer Darkness. Christ himself has declared that even the most vile of sins will be forgiven (Matthew 12: 31). He makes no exception to this. He does not say that these sins will only be forgiven if you believe. He says they all will be forgiven. The only exception is blaspheming the Holy Ghost, which can never be forgiven.
    Let us read Matthew 12: 31-32
    “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

    A few things to note here. First, as I said, all sin will be forgiven. Second, Christ give us the possibility of forgiveness in the world to come. If this was not even possible he would not need to specify that Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can not be forgiven after death. It is obvious that forgiveness of other sins is possible after death.
    This agrees well with Revelations 20: 13, which states that “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
    Notice that the dead are coming out of hell to be judged. If there is no forgiveness after death, but only a consignment to hell for the wicked, then why is Hell giving up its dead to be judged? Obviously there is a time after death during which sins can be repented of and forgiven, thus making the need for this final judgment long after death.
    However, there is the scripture that states “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9: 27). If there is a judgment after death, but hell is giving up its dead for a judgment, then the scriptures must be talking about two different judgments; one at death, and then a final judgment after all things are completed.
    These things are scriptural, proven through the Bible. There is a judgment after death, but there is also a time given for men to repent and have their sins forgiven, after which there is another judgment.

    This is the truth of the matter. At the first judgment, upon death, all that is considered is the question, is the person saved or not. If they are saved they are sent to Paradise to await the resurrection and final judgment is happiness. If they are not saved they are consigned to misery in prison, or Outer Darkness to await the final judgment. Thus we have the very correct doctrine that there are two destinations, which Kent actually explained very well.
    However, while in this state of misery there is time for people to learn the truth, repent of their sins, and be baptized. This is what Peter talked about when he wrote that Christ “went and preached unto the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3: 19) and declared that “for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4: 6).
    Then, at the end of all things, when all things are placed under the foot of Christ by the Father, those spirits in prison (hell) will come forth to be judged for their works, receiving a just reward. Those who have commited the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit will return to Outer Darkness with Satan and his legions for all the rest of eternity; but all the others, having paid for their sins in that state of misery, will, as Christ has declared, receive a forgiveness for all sins and receive their reward.

  75. 75 shematwater
    July 5, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    ECHO

    I have never denied that we teach even the greatest of sinners will enter Heaven. But they will not be in the presence of the Father or share in the blessings of eternal life. We can have this doctrine without any difficulty because we believe that men are rewarded according to their works, but that all who have not committed the unpardonable sin will eventually be forgiven.
    The problem is that you do not have this as part of your doctrine, and yet you try to claim that your doctrine does not allow the free choice of sin.
    Now, I have never said that you actually teach a free lisense to sin; what I said is that the logical conclusion of your doctrine is that such a lisense exists. If your actions can have no effect on your salvation then they can have no effect on your damnation either; thus it doesn’t matter what sins you commit. That is what it leads to. Every time I have asked you to explain how this reasoning is false you have avoided the question. The only one who actually tried to answer in any real way was Kent, and he basically said he didn’t know, but leaned to me being right in my reasoning.

    Speaking of our doctrine, using Josh’s school analogy, if you are content to get only D’s or C’s that is fine with me; but doing so will restrict your options later and you will find that you cannot have everything you want to have. So, yes, in a way the truth does give a lisence to sin, because it give us free will and the right to choose what we want to do. But it does not give a lisence on the consequences. You cannot get all D’s and then expect to get the same reward as the strait A students. But in your doctrine I have seen nothing like this, but instead the idea that it doesn’t matter what grade you get because Christ is going to make it all good in the end anyway.

  76. 76 choosethechrist
    July 5, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Shem said, I am sorry if you find this offensive, but honestly, I find the comparison you are making just as offensive.

    I don’t take offense at your comparisions because I have an appropriate sense of perspective in all of this. I can understand where you are coming from regarding your beliefs and not take offense at what you think is offensive because I am secure in my faith. Lots of people find the Biblical gospel to be offensive and it has never stopped me from presenting it.

    Your “offensive” comparisions are not new to me. All of us here understand that in mormonism it all boils down to “obeying” the requirements of the LDS church. Since we do not recognize your LDS requirements as being from God, I understand that God does not hold me to those requirements.

    Shem said, But in your doctrine I have seen nothing like this, but instead the idea that it doesn’t matter what grade you get because Christ is going to make it all good in the end anyway.

    Did you look at the link I posted regarding the judgment of believers?

    Here’s a start for you that indicates that our “grade” matters:

    Hebrews 10:26-31
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Judgment, fiery indignation, punishment, vengeance, recompense….strong words from a mericful, loving, God who wouldn’t send people to hell for eternity don’t you think?

    Proverbs 9:10
    10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
    and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

  77. July 6, 2012 at 1:08 am

    . Josh said: ” Christ died for EVERYONE and all the Lutheran people here said no he didnt”

    For the record, Lutherans believe that Christ died for everyone and no Lutheran posting on the blog has said Christ didn’t die for everyone.

  78. July 6, 2012 at 1:08 am

    Shem said: “OUr Heavenly Father had countless spirit children. Like any loving parent He wanted every single one of them achieve their highest potential, which potential was achieving the same type of life that He Himself had. Knowing that such a life was impossible while his children were spirits he instituted a plan whereby they could gain the physical bodies needed, as well as the experience required to achieve that potential….However, it must be understood that the plan he instituted was not new, but was the same plan by which all gods have progressed….” (See post 43 for the rest of context)

    1) Does a person have to have a body to become a God?
    2) Does a person have to be a God to produce Spirit children?
    3) Does Heavenly Father have a body?
    4) Does Jesus have a body?
    5) Does the Holy Spirit have a body?

  79. July 6, 2012 at 1:22 am

    Kent said: “Echo, what do you think about some of the Mormons here saying the people who will have their part in the lake of fire means that they will not be there permantly?”

    Even the Mormon scriptures show that the lake of fire is permanent…

    D & C 76:“32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, WITH THE DEVIL and his angels IN ETERNITY;… 36 These are they who shall go away into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
    44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, which is ENDLESS PUNISHMENT, which is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, to reign with the devil and his angels in ETERNITY, where their worm dieth not, and the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED, which is their torment—

    BOM Jacob 6:10 “10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, whose flames are UNQUENCHABLE, and whose smoke ascendeth up FORVEVER AND EVER, which LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone IS ENDLESS TORMENT”

    Mosiah 3:27 “ 27 And their torment is as a LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up FOREVER AND EVER.”

    2 Nephi 9:16 “16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into feverlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up FOREVER AND EVER AND HAS NO END.”

    2 Nephi 28:23 “23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, which is ENDLESS TORMENT.”

    Alma 12:17 “17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up FOREVER AND EVER; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.”

  80. 80 choosethechrist
    July 6, 2012 at 2:53 am

    Shem said, However, while in this state of misery there is time for people to learn the truth, repent of their sins, and be baptized.

    But, mormon god who is so loving and merciful will have no mercy on those of us who rejected mormonism in this life. Doesn’t sound like such a loving and merciful god to me.

    Shem said, Those who have commited the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit will return to Outer Darkness with Satan and his legions for all the rest of eternity; but all the others, having paid for their sins in that state of misery, will, as Christ has declared, receive a forgiveness for all sins and receive their reward.

    God says I am not condemned, Mormonism says I am condemned.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    The others will pay for their sins, receive forgiveness and receive their reward……

    1 John 2:2
    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Jesus paid for my sins and yours. I will not pay for my sins in order to receive forgiveness and receive my reward because I am already forgiven.

  81. July 6, 2012 at 3:44 am

    . Shem said: “If your actions can have no effect on your salvation then they can have no effect on your damnation either; thus it doesn’t matter what sins you commit. That is what it leads to. Every time I have asked you to explain how this reasoning is false you have avoided the question. The only one who actually tried to answer in any real way was Kent, and he basically said he didn’t know, but leaned to me being right in my reasoning.”

    Here is the answer…

    Your human logic is faulty. Your reasoning is wrong.

    Our actions have no effect on our salvation. Our actions can effect our damnation.

    Dead men can’t bring themselves back to life. Only God can bring them back to life. (= Our actions have no effect on our salvation) (Eph 2 “you were dead in your transgressions and sins… we were by nature objects of wrath… God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead… this not from yourselves”)

    A man who has been raised from the dead can take his own life. ( = Our actions can effect our damnation) (Heb 10:26-27 ” If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”)

  82. 82 joshtried
    July 6, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Echo, i believe between you shem and me we have reached a point at which nobody is going to give.
    We say lutherans are wrong based on their assumption regarding free will.
    You say our “human” logic is faulty, because we can take active part in our continued damnation.
    I ask how it is that man is able to go against the absolutely immutable will of God if God wills you to be saved. I ask how it is that if God has power over your will that you are in any way able to continue to sin.
    Insert conversation changer here. Probably along the lines of false prophecy….
    I direct this comment specifically to Lutherans. You are wrong.

    Unfortunately, as LDS we are “debating” against several belief systems at a time Choose. There are parts of the Lutheran doctrine we do agree with, and parts of the protestant, and so on. The problem is eventually there is going to be a very targetted debate that we voice as “against Christians” when it is against a singular belief system. Admittedly, we are not the best at directing our words to the proper person every single time. Even kent agrees with Mormons that we all have a choice, but none on your side would dare to say this. This is unfortunate, but speaks volumes. You would distance yourself from us at all cost instead of seeing how much we have in common with others. We do not believe in a different Christ than you, we simply read the scriptures differently. Even in your life you hold many of the same values, yet you choose to ignore this because of our title alone. I have asked this before, and will try again now… When last was anyone you know baptized by a lay member in any of the respondants congregations? Mormons practice this more than you do, yet you claim the authority… Every baptism i was part of before becoming LDS was the preacher doing it… Yet you claim there is no proper authority, that it is all general authority. I have been the one to perform a baptism at least once in my life. Have you? I consider myself a lay member in my congregation. We do all have (PROPER) authority. We have faith in Christ just as you do. Our heaven is one where everyone does not receive the same reward, just as yours is. You are okay with echo contradicting himself when he says that Christ died for everyone, but -oh, there is a catch… He didnt really, because he cant choose a mormon. He is saying it is entirely on God whether i make it back to heaven, and God might not choose me, but Christs death was for everyone. Christ took all sin and all death and put it under foot for everyone, but not really everyone since he doesnt choose everyone. You are okay sitting idly by as he says this, but must speak out about mormons. He reads the Bible different from you, as do we, but you only seek to destroy the faith of one of us. The same goes to you echo. You are willing to let “christians” claim free will is in tact, and to hold your tounge, but heaven forbid a mormon say the same thing.
    You know what, at least i have the co-jones to come out and say i think only mine is right. I would rather do that any day then say that the path to God is wide, and that only the mormons got it wrong…. For us, it is different. The path is narrow. It is hard. But it is right.

  83. 83 choosethechrist
    July 6, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Josh, I am not Lutheran and am not familiar with Lutheran views on election and free will nor do I lean solely toward Calvanist or Armenian views. I have stated before on this blog that free will and election are evident in the Bible. I believe that election and free both play a part in salvation.

    “I ask how it is that man is able to go against the absolutely immutable will of God if God wills you to be saved.”
    By man’s free will to choose. God called to me quite a bit before I finally choose to accept His call. I can’t tell you how many alter calls I did not take in spite of God pulling on me to answer Him with a yes.

    “I ask how it is that if God has power over your will that you are in any way able to continue to sin.”
    Free will, the nature of man, and sanctification.

    “You would distance yourself from us at all cost instead of seeing how much we have in common with others.”
    What we believe about God, Jesus, and salvation matters and on these issues we have nothing in common which is why I personally have to set myself apart from LDS teachings and doctrine. There is no way I can accept us as having any commonalities here. The God represented in my Bible is not the God of mormonism in any way, shape, or form. The one thing that angers my God the most as evidenced in the Bible is idolotry and the mormon people are very idolotrous. Please keep in mind that idolotry takes on many different shapes and forms it’s not just bowing down to a statue or praying to Zeus.

    “We do not believe in a different Christ than you, we simply read the scriptures differently.”
    Josh, in my opinion, that I get from reading your words, I think you are one who is trying to mix Christian ideas with mormon doctrine. Reading early LDS church literature and teachings of LDS prophets does reveal a different Christ in mormonism. Your leaders, including Hinckley, understood this. We do not believe in the same Jesus.

    “Even in your life you hold many of the same values, yet you choose to ignore this because of our title alone”
    If it were about morals, values, and living a good life, we would not need to be haivng this converstation. I ignore this because our salvation is not dependent on these things. By your statement, I should be in agreement with my atheist friend who lives a very moral life with high values, but that will never happen because his views on God are just plain wrong.

    “When last was anyone you know baptized by a lay member in any of the respondants congregations?”
    Happens all the time in my church. In fact, we have had at least 2 baptisms performed by a lay person, mother/father baptizing their child, that I can think of in the past month alone. My son’s Sunday school teacher, a lay person and woman, baptized my son because she is the one who helped lead him to accept Christ. My Aunt will be baptized this Sunday and our Pastor is set to perform it, but if I asked her to give me the honor in baptizing her, I’m sure she would let me do it as I had a part in her salvation.

    “Yet you claim there is no proper authority, that it is all general authority.”
    It is Christ’s authority which all believers in Christ posses.

    “You are okay with echo contradicting himself when he says that Christ died for everyone, but -oh, there is a catch… He didnt really, because he cant choose a mormon.”
    As far as I’m concerned, Echo has made no contradictions. Christ died for everyone. He has choosen all mormons, but not all mormons have choosen Him.

    “He is saying it is entirely on God whether i make it back to heaven, and God might not choose me, but Christs death was for everyone. Christ took all sin and all death and put it under foot for everyone, but not really everyone since he doesnt choose everyone.”
    God holds the power to save and it is entirely God who does the saving. God has choosen you, but you may not have choosen Him. Christ’s death was for everyone, but not everyone accepts it.

    “You know what, at least i have the co-jones to come out and say i think only mine is right. I would rather do that any day then say that the path to God is wide, and that only the mormons got it wrong.”
    Josh, in my opinion, you are a very confused individual and have misunderstood a lot of what has been presented here. The path to God is not wide and none of us here have presented it as being so. There is ONLY ONE WAY and that is Jesus. Mormonsim presents another way which has been made evident in this post and the bottom line is that the mormon church is the way. Without the mormon church, we are damned. That is a false gospel. Jesus is the way, not the mormon church.

    Who is Jesus, he is SAVIOR!
    Who is the mormon savior in reality? The mormon church. The mormon church is your idol.

  84. 84 shematwater
    July 6, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    Here are some questions asked by Echo

    Q. Does a person have to have a body to become a God?
    A. If one is using the term as a title to refer to the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then no. The Son was God before he had a body, and the Holy Ghost is God now, even though he does not have a body. However, if you are using it to indicate the state of being or existence that is godhood then yes. This state, known as Eternal Life, can only be gained if one has a physical body. Thus Christ was God, or held this title and authority, before he was born on this earth; but he was not a god, or did not existence in the state that is godhood, until he was resurrected.

    Q. Does a person have to be a God to produce Spirit children?
    A. Again, as the title of authority the answer is no, for the same reasons. However, as the state of existence then yes. Only one who lives in Eternal Life can have spirit children.

    Q. Does Heavenly Father have a body?
    A. Yes.

    Q. Does Jesus have a body?
    A. Yes.

    Q. Does the Holy Spirit have a body?
    A. No.

  85. 85 shematwater
    July 6, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    ECHO

    You said “Your human logic is faulty. Your reasoning is wrong. Our actions have no effect on our salvation. Our actions can effect our damnation.
    Dead men can’t bring themselves back to life. Only God can bring them back to life. (= Our actions have no effect on our salvation)
    A man who has been raised from the dead can take his own life. ( = Our actions can effect our damnation)”

    It is your reasoning that is faulty. If I have the choice of killing myself than I also have the choice of not killing myself. Thus the simple fact that I can cause my own damnation proves that it is in choosing not to that I preserve my salvation. Thus I have a direct effect on my salvation because I have a direct effect on my damnation.
    Simply put, a choice must have two different options, or it is not a choice. So if I cannot choose salvation than I cannot choose damnation either; on the other hand, if I can choose damnation than I must have the power to choose salvation.
    Of course, this is logical, and so it doesn’t really have any bearing on the discussion, because you have told us strait out that logic cannot be used to understand this.

    You also said “no Lutheran posting on the blog has said Christ didn’t die for everyone.”

    While it is true that you have not said this directly, this is the logical conclusion of your doctrine. If I have no effect on whether Christ chooses me, than if he doesn’t he did not die for me. If he did die for me and then did not choose me than he is not just. Either way you look at it you got a dilemma on your hands.

    You also said “Even the Mormon scriptures show that the lake of fire is permanent…”

    I find it fun that you attempt to use our scriptures to prove something when you either don’t understand it or are intentionally twisting it.
    Doctrine and Covenants 19: 5-7, 10-12
    “Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
    Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
    Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory….
    For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
    Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
    Endless punishment is God’s punishment.”

    There is a place that is permanently fixed as the place of punishment for those who rebel against God. This is clearly seen in the scriptures, both old and new. This is all you have proven in your list of references. But you miss the fact that just because the place is permanent the time spent there is not always so. For it is not written that there shall be no end to the torment, but it is written that the punishment itself is an endless punishment, or, in other words, the kind of punishment that is given by God.

  86. July 6, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Josh said: “I ask how it is that man is able to go against the absolutely immutable will of God if God wills you to be saved”

    Let me narrow this down to forgiveness. But before I talk about forgiveness, I need to talk about the Lake of Fire which Mormon scriptures clearly agree is an everlasting and permanent place of torment where the devil and his demons also are.

    Revelation 21:8 says: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

    Notice the word: “unbelieving” there? Every single person who dies without faith in Jesus is going to the Lake of Fire. What does it mean to have faith in Jesus? Since Jesus is our savior from sin, it means to trust that Jesus has fully and freely paid the price for ALL of our sins. Our forgiveness is unconditional. Unfortunately, Mormons fall into the “unbelieving” category because they currently believe the teachings of Mormonism wherein God’s forgiveness is conditional… “Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins” (Spencer Kimball, Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, p. 386).

    For Mormons it is: “Forgiveness?”
    For Christians it is: “Forgiveness!”

    And since Mormons are without faith…” without faith it is impossible to please God” Heb 11:6 “we were by nature objects of wrath” Eph 2:3
    Every attempt a Mormon makes to work his way up the commandment ladder into the Celestial Kingdom he is INCREASING his wickedness not decreasing it because the celestial kingdom was purchased FOR YOU with Christ’s blood but as a Mormon you refuse to believe that and instead think you can earn it by climbing up the ladder! So every step you take up that ladder is like spitting in the face of Christ one more time! Open your eyes. Hear what I am saying. There is no ladder to the celestial kingdom. (No unclean thing can enter God’s presence) Christ did it all for you. He brought the celestial kingdom down to you with his own sinless blood! There is no ladder to heaven. We must be sinless. Your blood and mine is so entirely polluted with sin. Christ has declared us sinless because of his sacrifice on the cross. SINLESS! That’s amazing LOVE! (No unclean thing can enter God’s presence) We are in! Praise God alone!

    How many times and in how many ways have all of the Christians here told you this? Countless times by now. Yet through that message, each and every time, God gave you what you need to believe it and you refuse. WHY? Whatever the reason, God’s immutable will leaves room for your refusal.

    Josh said: “I ask how it is that if God has power over your will that you are in any way able to continue to sin”

    Romans 8:5

    Josh said: “Even kent agrees with Mormons that we all have a choice, but none on your side would dare to say this”

    I have made it known to you a couple of times now, when I disagreed with another Christian viewpoint. So I don’t know why you are saying this, would you like to enlighten me?. I have also told you that I disagree with the NON Lutheran Christian viewpoint on this blog that we have a choice “in” our salvation. (Of course I believe we can make choices once we are saved) So what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this statement?

    Josh said: “…This is unfortunate, but speaks volumes. You would distance yourself from us at all cost instead of seeing how much we have in common with others. We do not believe in a different Christ than you, we simply read the scriptures differently. Even in your life you hold many of the same values, yet you choose to ignore this because of our title alone.”

    You believe in a different Christ than we do. We haven’t kept this fact from you. You disagree. However, Even President Hinckley disagrees with you….

    “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'” ( The LDS Church News June 20, 1998)

    And the Bible disagrees with you as well…

    Mathew 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.”

    We know the difference between our Jesus and your Jesus. You don’t. The verse states that it’s not possible for False Christs to deceive the elect. We are the elect because we know the difference.

    Josh said: “Even in your life you hold many of the same values, yet you choose to ignore this because of our title alone”

    “because of our title alone”? Seriously Josh?… The fact of the matter is that most if not all of the doctrines of Mormonism are diametrically opposed to Christianity but more importantly, Mormonism teaches a different Gospel. While Choose and Kent may attend Churches that aren’t “Lutheran”, I still consider them “Christians” because they have the true gospel.

    Josh said: “You are okay with echo contradicting himself when he says that Christ died for everyone, but -oh, there is a catch… He didnt really, because he cant choose a mormon.”

    Josh, for the record, I haven’t contradicted myself,. I never said God can’t choose a Mormon. If God couldn’t choose a Mormon, I wouldn’t even be on this blog. God can and has chosen Mormons. In fact there is a mass exodus of Mormons coming out of Mormonism right now in our day. So God is choosing Mormons.

    Josh said: “You are willing to let “christians” claim free will is in tact, and to hold your tounge, but heaven forbid a mormon say the same thing.”

    Again, I haven’t held my tongue Josh.

    Josh said: “You know what, at least i have the co-jones to come out and say i think only mine is right. I would rather do that any day then say that the path to God is wide, and that only the mormons got it wrong…. For us, it is different. The path is narrow. It is hard. But it is right.”

    Mathew 7:14 “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW FIND IT.”

    Notice how it says that “FEW” will find it. In Mormonism, “MOST” will find it. Most people go to heaven in Mormonism. In Christianity, only FEW go to heaven.
    Because Wide is the road of false teaching and few are willing to cling to true teaching no matter what the cost. It’s a hard road and few are willing to travel on it.
    In Christianity the gate is Jesus. In Mormonism the gate is YOU.

  87. 87 shematwater
    July 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    CHOOSE

    You said “Mormon god who is so loving and merciful will have no mercy on those of us who rejected Mormonism in this life. Doesn’t sound like such a loving and merciful god to me.”

    If you believe this you do not understand the gospel as you claim. There is always mercy; but there is also always justice. For those who reject the truth in this life justice cannot allow them entrance into the Celestial World; but mercy can be extended to raise them out of the Telestial World and into the Terrestrial.
    Doctrine and Covenants 76: 71-75
    “And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial…
    Behold, these are they who died without law;
    And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
    Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
    These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.”

    This is apposed to those of the Telestial World: Doctrine and Covenants 76: 81-85
    “And again, we saw the glory of the telestial…
    These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
    These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
    These are they who are thrust down to hell.
    These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.”

    The mercy of God is always extended as far as it can without destroying his justice. Those who reject the gospel in this life, but receive it in the next will be redeemed when they receive it and shall inherit the Terrestrial glory. Those who reject it both in this life and the next will wait in Hell, tormented in prison, until the last resurrection (after the millennium) at which point they will also be redeemed, but will inherit only the Telestial Glory.

    So yes, we teach a more merciful God than you, for you teach a God that does not extend his mercy past this life; but once you die you and judged and that is the end of it.
    Our God, on the other hand, allows you a second chance after this life to improve and be judged with a different judgment and receiving a greater reward. God’s mercy for us is not limited to this life.

    In response to Josh you wrote: “As far as I’m concerned, Echo has made no contradictions. Christ died for everyone. He has choosen all mormons, but not all mormons have chosen Him.”

    Echo said we have no free will until after we are chosen, but that we have chosen to resist being chosen. This is a contradiction.

    You then ended your last post with “Who is Jesus, he is SAVIOR! Who is the mormon savior in reality? The mormon church. The mormon church is your idol.”

    If we are going to start tossing around the accusations, let us not forget the Echo, JBR, and I believe Kent (maybe you as well, but I really don’t remember) stated very directly that they hold the Bible is greater regard than they do God himself, as they would trust it more than God.
    I refer back to the when I asked the question “If God commanded you to join the LDS church would you?” They all said that since that command goes contrary to how they read the Bible they would ignore it, and thus they would ignore God in favor of what they think the Bible says.
    So, Echo, JBR, and anyone else who holds this view has placed the Bible as their Idol and worship it as being greater than God himself.

  88. 88 Kent
    July 6, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Shem said, “If we are going to start tossing around the accusations, let us not forget the Echo, JBR, and I believe Kent (maybe you as well, but I really don’t remember) stated very directly that they hold the Bible is greater regard than they do God himself, as they would trust it more than God.”

    None of us has ever said this, and I repeat, ever!

    The Bible is God’s word and it is Him speaking to us and is the only scripture there is. We learn what God wants us to know through its pages and while we can also be taught and shown things by the Holy Spirit, if what we think we hear from Him contradicts what the Bible says in any way, it is not from God.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  89. July 6, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Shem said: “Echo said we have no free will until after we are chosen,”

    God says: “children born NOT… of human decision…, but born of God.” John 1:13

    Shem said: “but that we have chosen to resist being chosen.”

    God says: “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” Acts 7:51 ”

    Shem said: “This is a contradiction.”

    God doesn’t contradict himself. It is only a contradiction to you. Therefore you must change the way you think.

    Shem said: “let us not forget the Echo, JBR, and I believe Kent (maybe you as well, but I really don’t remember) stated very directly that they hold the Bible is greater regard than they do God himself, as they would trust it more than God.”

    You are giving false testimony against your neighbor again. That’s a sin against the 10 commandments. You claim to believe in obeying “all” the commandments, so I ask sincerely, why don’t you? (“Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins” (Spencer Kimball, Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, p. 386)).

    Exodus 20:16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.”

    Proverbs 12:17 “A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells LIES.”

    The consequences of false testimony(LIES)…

    Revelation 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving, …and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

    BOM Jacob 6:10 “10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, whose flames are UNQUENCHABLE, and whose smoke ascendeth up FOREVER AND EVER, which LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone IS ENDLESS TORMENT”

    2 Nephi 9:34 “34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.”

    D & C 76: 103 These are they who are liars, … and whosoever loves and makes a lie. 104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. 105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Shem, to trust God’s word is to trust God himself. After all, it is HIS word.

  90. 90 choosethechrist
    July 6, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Shem said, “If you believe this you do not understand the gospel as you claim. There is always mercy; but there is also always justice. For those who reject the truth in this life justice cannot allow them entrance into the Celestial World; but mercy can be extended to raise them out of the Telestial World and into the Terrestrial.”

    I do understand the mormon gospel, as I have said before on this blog anything less than being in the actual literal presence of God when I die is not going to cut it for me and the mormon terrestrial for me according to mormonism is not going to work. It is contrary to what God has said. I will not settle for damnation in the terrestrial kingdom simply for refusing to put the LDS church between me and God.

    Who is Jesus? Jesus is my high priest and he is the only thing that exists between me and my God. No church will EVER stand between me and God.

    Shem said, “Echo said we have no free will until after we are chosen, but that we have chosen to resist being chosen. This is a contradiction.”

    I understand what Echo has said and it seems to me that there is a misunderstanding on your part which is not the same thing as a contradiction.

    From Kent’s post:

    Shem said, “If we are going to start tossing around the accusations, let us not forget the Echo, JBR, and I believe Kent (maybe you as well, but I really don’t remember) stated very directly that they hold the Bible is greater regard than they do God himself, as they would trust it more than God.”

    None of us has ever said this, and I repeat, ever!

    The Bible is God’s word and it is Him speaking to us and is the only scripture there is. We learn what God wants us to know through its pages and while we can also be taught and shown things by the Holy Spirit, if what we think we hear from Him contradicts what the Bible says in any way, it is not from God.

    Amen Kent!

    From Echo’s post:

    Mathew 7:14 “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW FIND IT.”

    Notice how it says that “FEW” will find it. In Mormonism, “MOST” will find it. Most people go to heaven in Mormonism. In Christianity, only FEW go to heaven.
    Because Wide is the road of false teaching and few are willing to cling to true teaching no matter what the cost. It’s a hard road and few are willing to travel on it.
    In Christianity the gate is Jesus. In Mormonism the gate is YOU.

    Amen Echo!

  91. 91 joshtried
    July 7, 2012 at 4:51 am

    Choose, that first question was directed at echo. Having recently read “The Bondage of the Will”, i find many things to be contradictory to the teachings of God. You and I both agree that it is our choice, that God has allowed us to choose salvation or damnation. Echo and Mark are teaching something contrary to what you hold as the true teachings of God, yet they are still Christian because of the choice in book? And we are not though we use the same book? This i dont understand. Echo is interpreting certain scriptures in a way that contradicts you. I do the same thing and that makes me not Christian? How exactly does that make sense?

  92. 92 joshtried
    July 7, 2012 at 5:08 am

    Echo, you are proving our point more and more. How is a person able to resist what he cannot resist? You said NOTHING I do has bearing on my salvation.. So, even if i resist i would still be saved.
    The word resist in this case is a verb. Verbs as we all know are action words. Another way to term an action is ” to do.” If i can resist, i have done something that directly affects my salvation.
    If someone came to you and said “here are your options. You can jump off this cliff.” is that really all that you can do? With no outside force at work and that being the only stated option, is that all that you can do? Is there an unspoken option of being able to stay where you are? If we can choose “to kill ourselves” then by definition we can choose not to. Would we eventually die? (in this mortal life) Yes. But not by killing ourselves. (in spiritual life) No. We would go on living forever.

  93. 93 joshtried
    July 7, 2012 at 5:25 am

    And how is Shem bearing false witness? You stated that it was your belief based on your understanding of the Bible that God would not give such a command. Abraham knew killing was bad, yet he did as God commanded. Even if being Mormon was bad, if God commands it you do it. Instead, you said you would not do it because it goes against what you have been taught. You would openly disobey God because you dont recognize him. Shem was saying “what if..” and you said nope, not gonna happen, because i dont think my book says it could happen. You have placed your faith in a book and not in God. In old times people were smart.. God said “cut of part of your p….” and they said “DONE.” We are willing to hear God now, you are only willing to hear things from the past. I am sorry if you are unable to recognize God, i hope your eyes are opened.

  94. 94 choosethechrist
    July 7, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Josh said, You and I both agree that it is our choice, that God has allowed us to choose salvation or damnation. Echo and Mark are teaching something contrary to what you hold as the true teachings of God, yet they are still Christian because of the choice in book? And we are not though we use the same book? This i dont understand. Echo is interpreting certain scriptures in a way that contradicts you. I do the same thing and that makes me not Christian? How exactly does that make sense?

    Back the truck up Josh. You zoomed in on what I said about free will and ignored what I said about believing in both free will and election. If this topic interests you so much, I would suggest you do some study on free will and election/predestination. Echo just explained to you why we don’t consider you to be Christian and what you believe about free will is not really a determining factor here.

  95. July 7, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Josh said: “you are proving our point more and more. How is a person able to resist what he cannot resist?”

    A man comes up to you and gives you a castle for free, no strings attached and then he leaves. Before he did this, you could neither believe it or make a choice. Now that the castle has been given to you, you can choose what to do with it.

    Josh said: “And how is Shem bearing false witness?” “You have placed your faith in a book and not in God.”

    The ‘book’ is God’s word which means we have placed our faith in God. You have placed your faith in everything but God and his word.

  96. 96 choosethechrist
    July 7, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    Mormon Jesus gives up his authority to Joseph Smith? Mormons come to the father through Joseph?

    “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” Brigham Young, October 9, 1859 Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91

    The real Jesus:

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Acts 4:12
    Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

  97. 97 joshtried
    July 7, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    Shem said, “Echo said we have no free will until after we are chosen, but that we have chosen to resist being chosen. This is a contradiction.”
    I understand what Echo has said and it seems to me that there is a misunderstanding on your part which is not the same thing as a contradiction.

    This is exactly my point. You say echo is wrong, but you stand up for him. Your hypocrisy is boundless… You could choose to stand against Echo on this matter, but you refuse to, even though you ARE against him in it.

    This IS a determining factor. Either Echo is right and i have no place in the choice of my salvation, or you are right. This IS a HUGE deal. Satan attempts to steal the agency of man, and this is exactly what Lutheran’s are teaching – that man has no agency.

    heading to work, and quite frustrated.. i may reply more later.

  98. 98 choosethechrist
    July 8, 2012 at 12:54 am

    Josh said, This is exactly my point. You say Echo is wrong, but you stand up for him. Your hypocrisy is boundless… You could choose to stand against Echo on this matter, but you refuse to, even though you ARE against him in it.

    Echo has not said anything that is heretical. Therefore, there is no need to correct my brother:

    Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

    I never said Echo is wrong, you said Echo is wrong. Am I a hypocrite or do I understand the doctrines of free will and election? It seems that you are more concerned about pitting me against my brother in Christ than you are in talking about who Jesus is, in fact it seems to me that you are more concerned about religion and what other people believe, think, say or do than you are about learning what God has to say about anything especially when it comes to salvation and escaping an eternity in hell separated from God.

    It is NOT a determining factor. Exactly how a person comes to salvation through election/free will is NOT important. Do you really think that I sat down and had a talk with God regarding the effect of free will and His election before I got saved. NO! I didn’t even have any idea what the doctrines of free will and election were.

    Josh, religion is your stumbling block. I don’t care what Lutherans teach about free will. Lutherans have God, Jesus, and salvation right PERIOD!

  99. July 8, 2012 at 1:56 am

    Josh said: “Satan attempts to steal the agency of man, and this is exactly what Lutheran’s are teaching – that man has no agency.”

    What you really should say is that your church teaches that Satan attempts to steal the agency of man. However if your church is a false church, it stands to reason then that the chances are great that your church is wrong about Satan stealing the agency of man. That’s very logical and in all probability totally and completely true.

    You failed to mention also that you just blindly believe everything your church teaches (trusting in the arm of flesh = trusting in man = idolatry). (I say “blindly” because Mormonism itself instills this trait into it’s members). Without carefully considering opposing viewpoints with an open mind, you are blindly believing what your church teaches and this opens yourself wide up to dying deceived. According to the Bible if you die deceived, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And because you will have nobody to blame but yourself, you will end up in the lake of fire.

    What if God, out of great love for you, decided that he wanted you to know the truth in this lifetime because he knew that you were believing a lie and so he saw to it that you hooked up with us here on this blog? But here you are trusting in the arm of the flesh refusing to allow God to change the way you think. Who then will be responsible on judgment day when you find out that all along you truly were deceived?

    I believe the Mormon Church is of the devil. I came to this conclusion through careful and lengthy bible study. If I am right, and nothing thus far has convinced me otherwise, it makes perfect and logical sense that the Mormon Church would teach the complete opposite message on free agency than the Bible does. The reason being: because the devil deceives us into thinking his doctrines are God’s doctrines. It does make perfect sense that most if not all of the teachings of Mormonism are diametrically opposed to the teachings of true Christianity and of God. After all, the devil hates God’s doctrines.

    Josh, you are very close-minded and this is something your church has ingrained into you. That’s a perfect trait for being deceived.

    “Free agency” isn’t even mentioned in the Bible, not once. Show me in the Bible where it says that Satan attempts to steal the agency of man. If it isn’t there, it’s a doctrine of the devil.

  100. July 8, 2012 at 2:31 am

    Josh,

    I am completely unconcerned about what awaits Choose after death. Choose will be with our Savior. I can tell from simply reading Choose’s posts that God has done mighty and wonderful things in Choose’s heart.

    It is Mormons that cause me so much concern and worry. Unless Mormons come to know the truth before they die, they will end up in the lake of fire the moment they die. In the lake of fire, Mormons will suffer anguish and torment for all eternity. Josh, we are here on this blog because it doesn’t have to end this way for you. We know you only have this lifetime to come to know the truth. This does give us a great sense of urgency on your behalf.

    So the urgency here is with Mormons, not Christians.

  101. July 8, 2012 at 3:48 am

    So Josh, I hope that clears that up for you, lets get back to discussing what I posted in post 95.

  102. July 8, 2012 at 4:05 am

    Choose said: “Echo has not said anything that is heretical. Therefore, there is no need to correct my brother:”

    And if I had said something heretical, I would be totally grateful to Choose for pointing that out to me all the while leading me away from that destructive path and guiding me into true doctrine. After all, that’s one way we show love to our neighbors and family in Christ. Besides Josh, if Choose and I disagree on one particular doctrine, we both know and agree that “true believers” are like the Bereans who search the scripture to see if what one another is saying is true. So Choose and I would be reading each others posts written to you and at the same time, we would be listening to one another and examining one another’s viewpoints in light of scripture. That’s one way we grow in our own knowledge.

  103. 103 choosethechrist
    July 8, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    Who is LDS Jesus?
    An insufficient savior. LDS must perform works in order to be fully saved/exalted.
    “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

    Who is Jesus?
    A complete and sufficient savior. The Bible clearly states that our complete salvation comes only through the finished work of Christ on the cross, apart from any work on our part. According to the Bible, our works prove we have salvation, but cannot help us attain salvation:

    “I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21).
    “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8,9).
    “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 Jn. 1:7).
    “What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31).
    “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43).
    “This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He has sent” (Jn. 5:29).
    “He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy.” (Titus 3:5).
    “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4).

    Why do we need Jesus? Because we are ALL sinners and Jesus is the only thing that makes us right with God.

    Any religious organization that discourages it’s members from having a relationship with Jesus Christ has serious problems:

    “I shall speak of our relationship with the Lord and of the true fellowship all saints should have with the Father. I shall set forth what we must believe relative to the Father and the Son in order to gain eternal life…many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus…gaining a special relationship with Christ is both improper and perilous…now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ…you have been warned, and you have heard the true doctrine taught” ~Bruce McConkie (from a speech given at a B.Y.U. devotional on March 2, 1982).

    Acts 16:31
    31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.”

  104. 104 joshtried
    July 9, 2012 at 5:52 am

    A man comes up to you and gives you a castle for free, no strings attached and then he leaves. Before he did this, you could neither believe it or make a choice. Now that the castle has been given to you, you can choose what to do with it.

    First, yes this analogy would be correct. Perhaps this is simply my interpretation of a book that is said to encompass your religions (Lutheran)thoughts on free will, but according to it, man doesnt really ever have free will. Man is either controlled by Satan or by God. God has the ability to override Satan, or to hand over to Satan, but Satan does not have the power to override God. If God wills you to be saved, and God’s will is 100% immutable (definition: Unchanging over time or unable to be changed), there is no choice. You are simply saved. you dont have a choice to reject Him.. You ARE saved. In the event that God handed you over to Satan, his will would not have been that you were saved, even in the time when you were under his influence. It is Luther that brings up that absolute immutability of God’s will, not me. I feel I adequately understand Luther’s presentation and understanding of an immutable will. If you feel that i do not understand this pretense, please explain it to me. You seem to be saying that though it was God’s will to “save” you, you can affect that salvation at some point in time. This to me is saying that God’s will was in fact NOT immutable. The only alternative (which is what LDS teach) is that God’s will is that man have the choice.

    As LDS, we do believe your analogy. A man (God) comes up to you and gives you a castle (creates you from literally nothing.), no strings attached and then leaves (send you to earth). Before he did this, you could neither believe it or make a choice (as you were literally nothing). Now that the castle (creation) has been given to you, you can choose what to do with it (heaven or damnation). This last sentence does not jive with my understanding of Lutheran theology. According to my understanding, the castle is now yours. Period. There is no getting rid of it. So, do we have a choice or not? Was Luther right, or wasnt he?

  105. 105 joshtried
    July 9, 2012 at 6:04 am

    Choose: LDS “by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel”

    The question is, did Christ give us laws and/or ordinances that were needed prior to entering heaven? If the answer is yes, then we are correct.
    This, for example, seems to be pretty direct. Perhaps this is a “law?”
    Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
    The question then becomes “HOW are we born of these spirits?”

    There are things given unto man that are necessary to be done in this world. For instance, we assume that the thief on the cross with Christ was not baptized. We know that he went to “paradise” (NOT heaven). We know paradise was not heaven because no one could enter into heaven until Christ died. If i am not mistaken, this same place is oft referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom.” This thief went to a “waiting place” because he had not been baptized.

    My point is that he has given us things that we need to do prior to going to “the Kingdom of God.” If all that was needed was belief in him, he would not have given the above answer.

  106. 106 joshtried
    July 9, 2012 at 6:21 am

    “Free agency” isn’t even mentioned in the Bible, not once. Show me in the Bible where it says that Satan attempts to steal the agency of man. If it isn’t there, it’s a doctrine of the devil.

    From what i remember from your version of the events that transpired in heaven before the earth was created. Satan wished to usurp God. My question to you since then has been in what way did he wish to accomplish this?
    Every one of us has felt the grasp of Satan at some point in our life. Every single one of us has felt that feeling of “not being good enough,” of “having no way out.” Satan wants you to feel like there is nothing you can do. It isnt until you find Jesus that you know there is a lot that you can do. It wasnt Satan giving the option to heal the sick and the lame. He corrupted people so much that the sick become outcasts of society. It was Satan bringing us to earth in the first place. It is Satan saying “dont ask why God brought you here.” To think we are here for no real reason, how close minded is that? The belief that we are here simply to get back to heaven is very problematic… This is also the source of the question of “what was Christ saving you from, heaven?”

    And what of those things that are in the Bible that you dont really “care about”? I have asked this before and got chastised for changing the subject, but how many of the women that you know wear what would have at the time scripture was written be considered “mens clothes”? This is VERY specifically in the Bible… I dont see to many people having a problem with it. There are people in my religion that dont care about it either. My point is, it is clearly there, and makes no difference. So, it can be there just for giggles, but it MUST be there for it to be followed? Just because it IS there doesnt mean it must be followed? How exactly does that make sense?

  107. 107 choosethechrist
    July 9, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Josh said, This, for example, seems to be pretty direct. Perhaps this is a “law?”
    Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

    How do you make this a law? Born of water relates to our recognition of our need to be cleansed from our sins and is why John the Baptist was sent ahead of Jesus in the first place. The baptist brought a message of the need to repent and be cleansed of sin. He paved the way for Jesus by placing an emphasis on sin and the need to repent and be cleansed from sin. Baptism shows our recognition of sin and our need to be forgiven and cleansed of that sin. The blood of Jesus is what truly cleanses a person from sin. When a repentant sinner recognizes their need for a savior (Jesus) and that Jesus is the only one who has taken away their sins, they are born again, they receive the Holy Spirit. Is the process of salvation a law? If you want to view this as “law”, then you must also recognize that this is the only law that God requires you to fulfill in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Christian heaven, not mormon heaven). You do not need to keep mormon laws, ordinances, or requirements in order to go to Christian heaven. Seems to me, you are once again trying to apply mormon rules to Christian theolgy and it just does not work.

    Josh said, The question then becomes “HOW are we born of these spirits?”
    We are not born of spirits, we are born of the Holy Spirit when we are saved. The Holy Spirit dwells in believers.

    Josh said, There are things given unto man that are necessary to be done in this world. For instance, we assume that the thief on the cross with Christ was not baptized. We know that he went to “paradise” (NOT heaven). We know paradise was not heaven because no one could enter into heaven until Christ died. If i am not mistaken, this same place is oft referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom.” This thief went to a “waiting place” because he had not been baptized.

    For a correct view of paradise and Abraham’s Bosom: http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html

    From lds.org:
    Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace.

    In the scriptures, the word paradise is used in different ways. First, as mentioned above, it designates a place of peace and happiness in the postmortal spirit world, reserved for those who have been baptized and who have remained faithful (see Alma 40:12; Moroni 10:34). Those in spirit prison have the opportunity to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and receive the ordinances of baptism and confirmation through the work we do in temples (see D&C 138:30-35). If they accept the gospel and their temple work has been done, they may enter paradise.

    Here are some questions for mormons:
    How did the thief get into paradise without receiving a mormon baptism during his life?
    How is a thief, who was so bad he was crucified, able to go to paradise with the righteous if he was not able to go through the lds process of repentance (he did not get a chance to abandon his sins and repeat them no more before he died)?
    What made the thief righteous?
    The thief was put to death for his crimes. How is it that a criminal “remained faithful” if he obviously did not keep the commandments?
    Aren’t spirit prison and paradise 2 different places? How did this nonmormon thief enter paradise that same day without having had any mormon temple work done for him?
    Where did Elijah and Enoch go? The Bible says they went to heaven, how did they get there without LDS temple work?

    Josh, according to mormon doctrine, the thief should have gone to spirit prison, not paradise as Jesus said.
    Who is wrong, Jesus or the LDS church?

  108. 108 shematwater
    July 9, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    KENT

    by your very response to this you prove my point. Your opinion is that if something contradicts the written word it cannotb e from God. Yet the written word is full of accounts where the greatest men of faith set aside the word in favor of direct revelation; something you refuse to do.
    For example, Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac at God’s command, even though the written word declared that killing was evil.
    Moses ordered the genocide of many cities, even though such was condemned by the very law that he himself received from God.
    So, yes, I can say that you have declared that the Bible is of higher authority than God himself, because you refuse to believe anything that does not conform to your interpretation of it. Even if God himself came down and commanded you to do something contrary to that (just like he did with Abraham) you would ignore the command in favor of what is written in the Bible.

    ECHO

    You have indeed contradicted yourself. You have stated, very directly, that until we are chosen we have no free will. However, you have also told me, very directly, that I am resisting the word of God.
    There is only two possible conclusions. Either I have already been chosen, and now have free will (which leads to a whole new set of difficulty for you), or I have free will despite not being chosen, which just negates your entire doctrine.

    CHOOSE

    Your savior is not a complete savior either, as his salvation is contingent on your faith. If it was truly only Christ than there would be no justice in condemning anyone. No one, except those that believe in the doctrine of predestination, actually teaches a salvation that does not require something on our part. Something is required or us.

    As to the thief, again you do not understand the doctrine of the church, and you are not as well read a you think. The thief did not go directly to paradise, but waited until the apostles had performed the necessary works to enable him to do so. However, he did have the promise that it would be done and that he would be accepted.
    2 Peter 3: 8 “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
    So, when Christ says that “today you will be in paradise” he has a little wiggle room in our time, as one thousand years is as 1000 years.
    Speaking of Elijah and Enoch, they didn’t go to paradise of prison, for they never died. They were translated, or changed so that they were no longer mortal, and thus not subject to physical death. They were removed from the Earth by God, and for this reason it is written that they were brought into heaven, as it was the best explanation to offer the people at the time.
    However, the truth is that, as this earth currently exists in the Telestial state, these men were taken off this earth and entered into a Terrestrial state, from which they could visit this earth (like the angels that visited Abraham and lot) and do the work they were called to do. Now, this is the case because they could not be truly resurrected until after Christ was; at which time their bodies were altered again to allow the process of resurrection, for they are now glorified in heaven.

    By the way, you quoted “Bruce McConkie (from a speech given at a B.Y.U. devotional on March 2, 1982).” I have to ask if you have actually read this speech, or are just cutting and pasting from another website.
    I ask this because your comments regarding this quote make absolutely no sense when you have actually read the speech.

  109. 109 choosethechrist
    July 9, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Shem said, “Your savior is not a complete savior either, as his salvation is contingent on your faith. If it was truly only Christ than there would be no justice in condemning anyone. No one, except those that believe in the doctrine of predestination, actually teaches a salvation that does not require something on our part. Something is required or us.”

    Is that the best you can do? Who here has denied faith is required? How many times have we stated here that belief is required? We are not talking about unbelievers here. We are talking about mormons. If you are going to claim faith in Christ for your salvation then do it right. You can not work or earn your salvation/exaltation.

    Shem said, “As to the thief, again you do not understand the doctrine of the church, and you are not as well read a you think. The thief did not go directly to paradise, but waited until the apostles had performed the necessary works to enable him to do so.”

    Now today does not mean today? Seriously! Jesus said you will be with me in paradise TODAY! Not really though, you won’t be with me until after 1830 when the mormons come to do your temple work. Good thing Jesus let him down easy by making him think it would be that day because 1800+ years is sure a long time to hang out in spirit prison or do you think the thief understood and was able to translate today into God’s time?

    Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43

    Shem said, “Speaking of Elijah and Enoch, they didn’t go to paradise of prison, for they never died. They were translated, or changed so that they were no longer mortal, and thus not subject to physical death. They were removed from the Earth by God, and for this reason it is written that they were brought into heaven, as it was the best explanation to offer the people at the time.”

    So, sometimes mormon god will overlook the whole mormon gospel and temple work thing as in the case of Elijah and Enoch. No laws and ordinances required for them. They must have been pretty perfect already. Were they saviors too?

    Shem said, “By the way, you quoted “Bruce McConkie (from a speech given at a B.Y.U. devotional on March 2, 1982).” I have to ask if you have actually read this speech, or are just cutting and pasting from another website.
    I ask this because your comments regarding this quote make absolutely no sense when you have actually read the speech.”

    So, are you saying then that the LDS church encourages it’s members to have personal relationships with Jesus?

    Shem said, “For example, Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac at God’s command, even though the written word declared that killing was evil.”

    What written word did Abraham have?

    Shem said,
    “So, yes, I can say that you have declared that the Bible is of higher authority than God himself, because you refuse to believe anything that does not conform to your interpretation of it. Even if God himself came down and commanded you to do something contrary to that (just like he did with Abraham) you would ignore the command in favor of what is written in the Bible.”

    Brian David Mitchell thought he had received direct revelation from God too. Based on your analogy, we should let him out of jail and turn him loose. How do you know God didn’t tell him to do what he did?

    I guess you are saying that if God came to you and told you to kill your son you would do it.

  110. 110 choosethechrist
    July 9, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Shem said, Shem said, “By the way, you quoted “Bruce McConkie (from a speech given at a B.Y.U. devotional on March 2, 1982).” I have to ask if you have actually read this speech, or are just cutting and pasting from another website. I ask this because your comments regarding this quote make absolutely no sense when you have actually read the speech.”

    Here it is for others to decide:
    http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843
    ……..The Mainstream of the Church

    Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.

    It is true that there may, with propriety, be a special relationship with a wife, with children, with friends, with teachers, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of the sky and the lilies of the valley. But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason.

    The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord’s Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

    And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.

    You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

    Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

    I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

    I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

    Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.

    Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other? This was particularly true after his resurrection.

    For instance, when Mary Magdalene, in a great outpouring of love and devotion, sought to embrace the risen Lord, her hands were stayed. “Touch me not,” he said. Between her and him, no matter what the degree of their love, there was a line over which she could not pass. And yet, almost immediately thereafter, a whole group of faithful women held that same Lord by the feet, and, we cannot doubt, bathed his wounded feet with their tears.

    It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper, and one of worshipful adoration, which yet maintains the required reserve between us and him who has bought us with his blood………….

  111. 111 shematwater
    July 9, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    CHOOSE

    Seriously?

    You said “Is that the best you can do? Who here has denied faith is required? How many times have we stated here that belief is required? We are not talking about unbelievers here. We are talking about mormons. If you are going to claim faith in Christ for your salvation then do it right. You can not work or earn your salvation/exaltation.”

    Is that the best you can do. You said that our Savior is not a complete savior because we believe we are required to do something. On the other hand yours is because nothing is required from yours.
    My point, since you seem to have missed it, is that by requiring faith you make yourself guilty of the very thing you accuse us, just in a different way.
    It is like a doctor calling another doctor a quack because prescribes one medication instead of another.

    You said “Now today does not mean today? Seriously! Jesus said you will be with me in paradise TODAY! Not really though, you won’t be with me until after 1830 when the mormons come to do your temple work. Good thing Jesus let him down easy by making him think it would be that day because 1800+ years is sure a long time to hang out in spirit prison or do you think the thief understood and was able to translate today into God’s time?”

    Again you show a lack of understanding and a twisting of my words. I never said he had to wait until the 1800’s. He waited until Peter, James, and John had fully instituted the practice and one of those original apostles performed the necessary works for him. That would have taken very little time (a year or two at most) and thus would be in line with God’s time, which is a day to every thousand years.
    Try to understand what I say rather assuming you already know.

    You said “So, sometimes mormon god will overlook the whole mormon gospel and temple work thing as in the case of Elijah and Enoch. No laws and ordinances required for them. They must have been pretty perfect already. Were they saviors too?”

    Again, I never said this, and your twisting of my words is getting rather annoying. I said they never went to paradise or prison, and they didn’t. They obviously had every necessary ordinance performed, including the endowment and marriage sealing.

    “So, are you saying then that the LDS church encourages it’s members to have personal relationships with Jesus?”

    Yes. Just not a special relationship with him. You are confusing terms and making them mean the same thing when they don’t.

    “What written word did Abraham have?”

    So, what you are implying is that no person before Moses that ever talked with God ever kept a record of what God said?
    The simple fact is that Noah was told that if a man killed another man he was to be killed himself. This command would have been passed down by the faithful from that time to Abraham; and since Abraham had close dealings with Melchizedek he would have known the command; yet he was willing to put it aside when God commanded otherwise.

    “I guess you are saying that if God came to you and told you to kill your son you would do it.”

    Yes, because if God commands we must obey. Abraham understood this. Why can’t you?
    The real difference is that Abraham was of such faith that he knew it was God and that it was not satan trying to deceive him. If God himself commanded this I would be willing (at least I hope I would), just as Abraham was willing.

    As to Brother McConkie, if you actually understood his words you would see that your comments mean nothing. He is advocating a very personal relationship with all members of the Godhead; but a relationship that does not excede the propriety of such. We should seek a personal relationship with Christ within the framework of a proper relationship with Him. We should not seek a ‘special’ relationship with Christ as such is not of a proper nature.

  112. 112 choosethechrist
    July 9, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Shem said, “So, yes, I can say that you have declared that the Bible is of higher authority than God himself, because you refuse to believe anything that does not conform to your interpretation of it. Even if God himself came down and commanded you to do something contrary to that (just like he did with Abraham) you would ignore the command in favor of what is written in the Bible.”

    God used to reveal himself and what He wanted us to know through prophets. Jesus is God’s final revelation. God did not reveal a new gospel to Joseph Smith and we do not need to look for new revelations. God has spoken to us through Jesus. The entire Old Testament points to Jesus not to the mormon church. God did not reveal Jesus to us and then make us wait 1800 years to hear a new mormon gospel that moves us backwards into slavery and bondage to laws, ordinances, and requirements.

    Hebrews 1

    God’s Final Word: His Son

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

  113. July 10, 2012 at 1:56 am

    Josh said: “If God wills you to be saved, and God’s will is 100% immutable (definition: Unchanging over time or unable to be changed), there is no choice.”

    God’s will is that he “wants” all men to be saved, (1 Tim 2:4) at the same time, God’s will is that you be free to reject him and his “no strings attached” salvation. (Mathew 23:37;Acts 7:51) Both of these facts are within his immutable will. It is a tremendous comfort to us to know that God’s will is immutable. Think about it. If God’s will was changeable, we would never be certain of what God’s will was at any moment in time. Think of all the anxiety and fear that would cause us.

    Josh said: “Man is either controlled by Satan or by God.”

    Romans 6:16 “Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

  114. July 10, 2012 at 2:23 am

    Shem said: “You have stated, very directly, that until we are chosen we have no free will”

    John 1:13 “children born not of … human decision… but born of God.”

    John 3:3 “In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. ”

    Shem said: “However, you have also told me, very directly, that I am resisting the word of God.”

    Hebrew 11:6 “without faith it is impossible to please God”

    Romans 8:7 “the sinful mind is hostile to God.”

    Luke 13:34 ““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”

    All you can do without faith is be unwilling.

  115. July 10, 2012 at 2:58 am

    Josh

    Josh said: “The question is, did Christ give us laws and/or ordinances that were needed prior to entering heaven? If the answer is yes, then we are correct.”

    The law doesn’t bring us life, instead it kills us. It destroys us. (Because of our sinfulness and our sins)

    Josh said: “Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
    The question then becomes “HOW are we born of these spirits?”

    This is God’s work, not ours. God himself causes us to be born of water and the Spirit. John 1:13 “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”

  116. July 10, 2012 at 2:58 am

    Shem said: “Your savior is not a complete savior either, as his salvation is contingent on your faith”

    We aren’t saved because of faith. We are saved because of Grace. Faith is simply the hose through which grace flows and that faith is a gift of God.

  117. 117 choosethechrist
    July 10, 2012 at 3:06 am

    “Faith is simply the hose through which grace flows”

    LOVE IT!!!!

  118. 118 choosethechrist
    July 10, 2012 at 4:32 am

    Shem said, “My point, since you seem to have missed it, is that by requiring faith you make yourself guilty of the very thing you accuse us, just in a different way.”

    Now you are saying that hearing the gospel and responding to it with belief is a work? Not so:

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV

    Here you have it, faith is not a work.

    Salvation comes through faith, salvation is a gift of God. Salvation is not a result of works (but of faith). Faith, then, is separate from works.

    Mormons flat out require works:
    “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

    More:
    Romans 3:21-23
    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    Romans 3:28
    For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

    John 3:16-18
    16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life… 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    Galatians 2:15-16
    We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    justified by faith
    not by works of the law
    by works of the law no one will be justified

    faith is not a work

  119. 119 shematwater
    July 10, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    ECHO

    You said “All you can do without faith is be unwilling.” and that “faith is a gift of God.”

    So what you are again saying is that I have no choice. If I can only be unwilling than I cannot choose to be willing, and thus it is not my choice, and free will does not exist. However, once I have the faith given to me by God than I can choose to be willing.
    Conclusion: Until God chooses to give me faith there is nothing I can do, so what is the point? Again you prove that Christ only died for those that God chooses to give faith too, as without this gift I am damned no matter what I do.
    Can’t you see the problem here.
    My biggest question at this point is “Why hasn’t God given me the faith you are talking about?” Also “What does your telling me this accomplish if I can only be unwilling until the faith is given?”

    CHOOSE

    You claim that I am “saying that hearing the gospel and responding to it with belief is a work?”
    This is again a misquoting of my words. I never said faith was a work. I merely pointed out that it was a condition that your doctrine places on salvation. Thus for you to say your salvation is unconditional is a false statement as proven by your own doctrine. It may not have the condition of works, but it is still conditional.

    Concerning faith, I do not think it is a work, but I do think that works are required in order to have faith. No, I do not think faith automatically generates works, nor do I believe that works cannot generate faith. There have been many men of faith who have fallen into evil, and some men of no faith who have come to believe because of their actions.
    For example: David was a man of great faith, but he eventually committed both adultery and murder. On the other hand Naaman the Syrian gained great faith only after doing the works in obeying the voice of Elisha to wash in the Jordan.
    The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, and in truth cannot be separated, as James clearly teaches. Faith, without the works to prove it, means nothing and cannot save. You quote Romans 4: 13 as proof that it was Abraham’s faith that made him righteous (something I do not dispute by the why), but look at James 2: 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” His faith is what made his righteousness possible, but it was his works that made his faith perfect. Why do you try to separate these two eternal principles that the Bible so clearly links together as inseparable?

    As to your other quotes, Romans 3: 21-23, 28, as well as Galatians 2: 15-16 are referencing the Law of Moses. This law of outward ordinances, or works, is distinguished from the Law of Faith (Romans 3: 27; also referred to as the covenant in Galatians), or inward devotion. Both are a law, and both require obedience; but the first, a law of outward obedience, was designed to show a person what to do, and thus condemns those who do not follow it. The second, a law of inward devotion, is designed to teach a person what is true, and help them to act accordingly. It is not a law designed to condemn the sinner, but to raise them, through obedience, to perfection.
    So, Paul is correct when he says that by the works of the Law (meaning the outward ordinances of the Law of Moses) no flesh shall be justified, for it is in the knowledge of our inferiority and need for Christ that comes through the law of faith that we are truly able to be humble and submit to the will of the Father.

    Now, speaking of John 3: 16-18; this verse comes up frequently and I always give the same response, but it seems the no one ever listens.
    Notice the wording.
    Verse 16 does not give a guarantee of salvation, but states that those who believe should be saved. This means that a person who believes has everything he needs to be saved, and so they should be, but does not guarantee they will be.
    Verse 17 says that through Christ the world might be saved; again suggesting that it is possible that it will not be.
    Verse 18 gives the greatest point of all however. Notice that it says those who believe are not condemned. This does not say those who believe are saved, but that they are not condemned. This means that if one has faith there is a chance for salvation, as condemnation has not yet been pronounced. Those without faith are condemned right now (unless they acquire faith) but those with faith are not yet saved. Sentence has been suspended. Why? So that we may perform our works on which we will be judged and either condemned or saved.

    So, your quotes prove nothing.

  120. 120 shematwater
    July 10, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    I thought I would through this out there.

    “We aren’t saved because of faith. We are saved because of Grace. Faith is simply the hose through which grace flows and that faith is a gift of God.”

    So without faith there is no hose. This statement is self contradictory. What it should say it that we are saved by grace, but that we are saved because of faith, as faith is the hose through which grace flows. Then it would actually make sense.
    In other words, if faith is the hose than it is because of faith (or the hose) that we receive the power of grace, which then acts to save us.

    Of course this is the exact same analogy that was used by us (I don’t recall the thread). Grace is the power that saves, but it must flow to us in order to charge our generators. Faith is the mechanism through which it flows, allowing us to receive the grace. Works is our maintaining the mechanism so that the valves don’t become clogged and slow the flow of that power (or stop it all together).

  121. July 10, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    “Why hasn’t God given me the faith you are talking about?”

    We have told you many times that your sins have been forgiven – no strings attached.

    Through that message, God has already given you all that you need in order to believe. So the fact that you don’t have faith is your fault alone to your own peril.

    Luther said it like this…

    “Even he who does not believe that he is FREE and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it… He who does not accept what the keys give receives, of course, nothing. But that is not the key’s fault. Many do not believe the gospel, but this does not mean that the gospel is not true or effective. A king gives you a castle. If you do not accept it, then it is not the king’s fault, nor is he guilty of a lie. But you have deceived yourself and the fault is yours. The king certainly gave it.” (Martin Luther LW 40, 366ff)… (The keys are forgiveness.)

  122. July 10, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    Shem said: “What it should say it that we are saved by grace, but that we are saved because of faith, as faith is the hose through which grace flows”

    Mormonism creates self-centered egotistical people. Which is why you are always looking for where “YOU” fit in and for what “YOUR” part is in all of this.

    Mormomism instills in you the notion that YOU must do something to be worthy. That YOU must somehow validate yourselves.

    In Christianity, the focus is on Jesus and what he did for the unworthy.

    Take your eyes off of “you” and put your eyes on “Jesus”.

    Even with the point you are trying to make…JESUS is the author of your faith, NOT YOU.

    Hebrews 12:2 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith”

  123. July 11, 2012 at 6:15 am

    You folks have a great week, I am off to the lake for 5 days.

  124. 124 joshtried
    July 11, 2012 at 7:07 am

    “In Christianity, the focus is on Jesus and what he did for the unworthy. Take your eyes off of “you” and put your eyes on “Jesus”. ”

    Jesus focused on US, and on YOU. And he did what he did for “Father,” not for himself..
    If Christ was willing to focus on ME for MY salvation, i think i am willing to take a moment to really reflect on that. A great example is someone drowning.. (different direction than the other one..) Christ teaches us all to swim (salvation), and without swimming, we will drown (damnation). None of us can help others that are drowning until we learn to swim for ourselves (swimming lessons available, we have to take them)… So yes, it is important to focus on yourself for a bit.
    This is NOT what work can i do that will get me to heaven on its own. This IS what things has Christ required of ME to take part in His promises?


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