I pose this, not as a trick question, but sincerely. To me, a non-Mormon, there are a couple of things that just don’t add up. The one is that Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”
The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship?
Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus? The brief article on worship in the manual, True to the Faith, at the very least, causes one to ask that question. It quotes Moses 1:15: “Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.” In the next paragraph it specifically mentions that prayer is one way to worship the Father. A little bit later it says: “As you reverently partake of the sacrament and attend the temple, you remember and worship your Heavenly Father and express your gratitude for His Son, Jesus Christ.” Again, as a non-Mormon, I find that distinction between Heavenly Father and Jesus quite striking.
The bottom line is that D&C 20:19 states that only one being is to be worshipped. In light of that, I think it is only fair to ask, whom do Mormons worship?
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Here is the bottom line: Mormons worship their own god, the LDS church, and Joseph Smith. It is evident that they have created a god different than the God of the bible. This according to the God of the Bible is known as idolatry.
Jeremiah 6:10-15
King James Version (KJV)
10To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.
11Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
12And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD.
13For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
That was God’s truth, here is God’s love:
Jeremiah 3:12-13
12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north:
“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will not be angry forever.
13 Only acknowledge your guilt—
you have rebelled against the LORD your God,
you have scattered your favors to foreign gods
under every spreading tree,
and have not obeyed me,’”
declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 4:1-2
1 “If you, Israel, will return,
then return to me,”
declares the LORD.
“If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, ‘As surely as the LORD lives,’
then the nations will invoke blessings by him
and in him they will boast.”
The answer to your question may be found by answering the question that we might pose based on this scripture in John chapter 20, verse 17:
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Who is the God of Jesus Christ? Who did Jesus pray to? Whose will did Jesus do? Who did Jesus obey?
When you can answer that, you’ll understand who Mormons worship, because we worship the God of Jesus Christ. His God is our God.
Allow me, a life-long, active Mormon to respond. The tricky part of your question, in the mind of a Latter-Day Saint, is the word “worship”. What do you mean by that? In modern parlance the word has shades of meaning. An active Christian might say he ‘worships’ Angelina Jolie or Tom Brady, but it would be clearly understood that the term ‘worship’ in its purest sense could only refer to Jesus Christ.
We worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Redeemer, The Saviour. We, however, never pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost.
We pray only to the Father, but we Worship The Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, if you prefer) and we recognize them as individual beings, or one Godhead.
It may seem a bit confusing to outsiders, but it makes perfect sense to a Saint.
Very interesting question. In my research, I have found that the LDS do not worship Jesus because they do not want to be known as polytheists. According to Bruce McConkie in “Mormon Doctrine” (p.587), “we should not pray to Jesus.” But look at how the Bible says we SHOULD worship Jesus: Thomas worshiped Jesus (John 20:28); wise men worshiped Jesus (Matt. 2:11); Mary Magdalene worshiped Jesus (Matt. 28:9); the disciples worshiped Jesus (Matt. 28:17); and there are many more examples of this in the Old and New Testament. (The Old Testament referring to worship of Jehovah.) Yet the LDS say that only Heavenly Father (Elohim) can be truly worshiped.
“we should not pray to Jesus.”
Interesting. Considering Stephen, prayed to Jesus, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”.
I think will has got the best answer so far.
Steph really just has the same boring rhetoric that has become so common it is basically meaningless.
Spam, while I agree with him, does not actually answer the question.
Sarah, not being a member, cannot have a true understanding of LDS doctrine and faith, but seems to be swayed more by popular ideas than actual understanding.
I do not say any of this to insult, only to comment on the level of understanding each person has shown. Will is right, in that we worship Jesus Christ as the Son and second member of the Godhead. We truly worship him as our savior. We also worship the Holy Spirit as the messenger and witness of all truth, and our guide while in this life. However, there is only one that stands as our Father and grand head of all gods, and to him we give the greatest reverence and worship.
In the purest sense of the word we are Polytheistic, for the word simply means a belief in many gods. However, using the more modern understanding of the term, that of worshiping many Gods, we are not as polytheistic as many try to make us, though I think we are still so, in a sense, and I have no problem with this, nor is it contrary to the Bible.
To answer the exact question of the post, Doctrine and Covenants 20: 19 is speaking to the condition of life in the Garden of Eden. At that time the Father was the only God with a physical body, and was the only one to be worshiped. But it later explains in this same section how the fall of man made the atonement of Christ necessary, and thus we worship him.
As to not praying to Jesus, this is simply because he is not present with us.
3 Nephi 19:22 “Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.”
If Christ was present with us we would worship him just as all the faithful saints have done. But he is not with us, and so we pray only to the Father, the only true and living God, for even Christ worshiped him.
Would one of our sectarian critics please answer my question–who is the God of Jesus Christ according to John 20:17? Who did Jesus pray to in Gethsemane? Who did he worship?
I have a question. Did Jesus Christ ever ask us to worship him?
~anne
also, Steph, where do you come off “knowing” what we believe? Can i “know” what YOU believe? I think not.
(ps….i am saying this with love)
I was told (just this week) from a woman Mormon that she ” prays to Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother because it’s how I resonate.” …………. her screen name is SuperSoul (from a different web blog)
So there is at least two official Gods that Mormons pray to….
Which begs the question then … who did Heavenly Father \ Mother pray to?
I
this unknown woman is the “official: source, huh? news to me! nice try, JBR! why do you guys hate us so much?? not feeling the love, folks! and as Mark says,” you gotta WIN the person”.
~anne
JBR
People have been excommunicated for teaching others to pray to our Heavenly Mother. Such a practice is blasphamous and should be shunned by anyone who understands the Gospel.
ANNE
I don’t know any place where Christ asks us to directly worship him, but anytime someone did worship him he encouraged it, and rebuked those who tried to stop them.
Of course, Christ is Jehovah, and thus the God of the Old Testament, and was thus worshiped by ancient Israel, and one could argue that they were commanded to do so.
Just saying.
i believe the correct term would be “a female member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”.
” People have been excommunicated for teaching others to pray to our Heavenly Mother. Such a practice is blasphemous and should be shunned by anyone who understands the Gospel. ”
You guy’s are too hard \ judgmental about this nice Mormon lady. (especially Anne)
For all you know she just determined that for a female to get the title of “Heavenly Mother” …this person must have proved herself worthy to somebody to become it. Maybe she feels that since Heavenly Father’s progression to Godhood isn’t possible without being married, that “Heavenly Mother” should get some credit for his progression……….. so she prays to her.
——————————————————————————————————
You say “anyone who understands the Gospel.” …. this nice Mormon lady claims she does.
She says “our purpose is to make mistakes, so we can learn & progress & enjoy.”
Is that not ” do all you can do” and using one’s agency? That’s what she hears.
JBR
I am not judgmental, but God is, and he has declared that such a practice is a violation of his law. We believe in a Heavenly Mother, yes, and we accept that she is a great woman and on par with her husband. However, we do not pray to her, for she is not the authority of Heaven.
Praying to Heavenly Mother is like petitioning the wife of President Monson in matters of Church administration. While we all agree that Sister Monson is a great women, it would be contradictory to the workings of the church to approach her on these matters.
This nice women can claim anything she wants, that does not make it true. We are here to learn and progress, but ignoring the clear mandates of God in favor of a practice that makes us feel nice is not learning and prevents progress.
If others have been excommunicated for teaching this practice, how can she think it is a good idea and in line with the gospel?
Shem…
You may want to explain what is meant by ” and on par with her husband” because that is kinda the point of this OP.
Jesus claimed he was “on par with Heavenly Father” also.
You can’t have Jesus being Jehovah ( God ) while Jehovah revealing there is no other beside him yet not praying to Jesus.
Be honest here… According to what you said, Jehovah ( Jesus in the OT) revealed that prayers to anyone else is forbidden and blasphemous. That would mean that by your definition of who Jehovah is (Jesus)… Jehovah actually revealed that praying to Heavenly Father is forbidden and blasphemous, it should only be directed to Jesus ( the Jehovah of the OT).
One more time–
Would one of you anti-Mormon critics please answer my question–who is the God of Jesus Christ according to John 20:17? Who did Jesus pray to in Gethsemane? Who did he worship? Don’t be evasive. The answer to that question is the starting point for understanding and reconciliation. Of course, that’s assuming that understanding and reconciliation is your goal. Is it?
Properly instructed Mormons do not pray to a heavenly mother. We pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. Don’t use heretics to portray the core doctrines of the religion. I guarantee I can locate a former Catholic-turned Baptist who still prays to Mary every now and then for old time’s sake. However, that would not be a correct example of Baptist doctrines. Let’s be fair about the way we discuss things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg
Please keep on topic.
For your information, just to let you know…We are not anti-Mormon. We are anti-Mormonism.
Tell us how you knowing that this nice Mormon lady is a heretic ….. of course without judging anybody.
Why not answer this one first:
“D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”
Being Jesus is Jehovah (God) and Jehovah revealed there is nobody other than him (singular)… whom do you worship and pray to ?
Should read:
Tell us how you know that this nice Mormon lady is a heretic ….. of course without judging anybody.
Anne, I come off knowing what you believe, because I was one of you, baptized and confirmed (gasp!). I guess I should correct myself. I don’t know what “you” believe because LDS people have sooooo many different views and beliefs, but I have seen this which is pretty much standard: This is my testimony, “I KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE, Joseph Smith, the church, the church, the church, and all of the other prophets”. Can’t recall ever hearing much about Jesus, but I know that it can’t be good to put the LDS church and it’s prophets before God when bearing one’s testimony. My testimony=God’s testimony! I challenge every LDS person here to compare LDS doctine against the Word of God and use a Bible without Joseph’s commentary. Read the Bible with an open mind like I have done. You will soon get a very different picture of who the God of the Bible is. Do not walk in blind faith simply because it is what you have been taught to believe. People are often wrong, but God never is! Do not read more into anything God has said, do not change what God has said, do not add to it, do not subtract from it. God does not change! If you will do this, you will see who God really is and that it does not mesh with LDS teachings. I think I know how Jeremiah felt, I am a weeping disciple! Sounding the trumpet………..
Shem, I think Judah thought Jeremiah’s rhetoric was boring too. God wasn’t fooled by their deceit and they suffered God’s wrath.
Steph,
Oh, so you are an apostate….now it all makes sense!
This is who Jesus prayed to:
Deuteronomy 4:35-39
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him … that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Malachi 3:6
6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
Isaiah 43:10
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
Psalm 139:7-8
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
Psalm 139:1-5
1 You have searched me, LORD,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, LORD, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
I Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Which is different than this:
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, “Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so” (Journal of Discourses 6:345).
Joseph Smith, stated “I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods” (History of the Church 6:474).
Brigham Young, the second prophet and president of the LDS Church, said, “How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods…” (Journal of Discourses 7:333).
Yes, you’ve got it! I saw the light! No amount of popcorn popping on any tree can change that.
Here’s the big question: Are there any Mormons here who are tired of being angry/defensive and ready to walk in the light? If so, take me up on my offer to help you. If not, then it is time for me to move on………….
good bye.
“PRAYER is one way to worship Heavenly Father” (Study by Topic: Worship, from LDS.org)
“When the Lord created men and placed them on earth, he gave “them commandments that they should love and serve him, THE ONLY LIVING AND TRUE GOD, and that HE SHOULD BE THE ONLY BEING WHOM THEY SHOULD WORSHIP.” (D&C 20:19.)” (Emphasis mine) FROM LDS.org link below…
http://lds.org/ensign/1971/12/how-to-worship?lang=eng&query=worship
***Since “prayer is one way to worship”, A Mormon then can “only” pray to the Father because: “he should be the ONLY being whom they should worship” and he is “the ONLY living and true God”.
“…some misguided members of the Church may ‘begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed’ with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father…” —The Ensign, June 1998, p. 59, LDS magazine
***Who did the Nephites in the Book of Mormon pray to?
“…Jesus came… he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.” —3 Nephi 19:15, 17-18
***Who did Paul and Stephen in the Bible pray to?
“…I besought the Lord thrice… And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory…that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”—2 Corinthians 12:8-9
“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”—Acts 7:59
***Contrary to the above Mormon Quotes, The Father alone was not worshipped. Jesus was worshipped.,…
Mathew 2:11 “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and WORSHIPPED him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
Mathew 14:33 “Then they that were in the ship came and WORSHIPPED him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”
Luke 24: 50-52 “And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
And they WORSHIPPED him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:”
*** Either the Father is “the only true and living God” that Mormons should worship and pray to or Jesus is the “only true and living God” that Mormons should worship and pray to.
If Mormonism chooses to worship the Father alone, then the Bible contradicts Mormonism and the Book of Mormon (BOM) contradicts Mormonism.
If Mormonism chooses to worship Jesus alone, then The Bible contradicts Mormonism and Mormonism contradicts Mormonism.
Fact, either way, Mormonism is in apostacy because Mormonism contradicts Mormonism, the Bible and the BOM.
if you add chocolate chips to oatmeal cookies then they are not oatmeal cookies, they are chocolate chip cookies, except if you also add raisins then they are raisin-oatmeal-chocolate chip cookies. But if you don’t add raisins, then can they really be oatmeal cookies??? because oatmeal cookies ALWAYS have raisins.
if you understood that, then you will no trouble with Echo’s post.
I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 36 years. I worship God, my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ His Son.
the end.
Oh and Steph? It wasn’t REALLY popcorn on the tree! No wonder you are so mixed up!! :)
JBR
Actually, Jesus never did claim to be “on par” with the Father, but always made himself subordinate to him. Notice that while in mortal life his command was to be perfect “even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” He di not claim perfection for himself, but for the Father only. Again, he says that “There is none good but God only,” placing himself lower than his Father.
When I say our Heavenly Mother is “on par” with our Father I mean that she is an equal partner in the marriage relationship with him. I do not mean to imply that they have the same duties and authorities, but that what they do have is equal to each other, just as it should be in all marriages.
Please provide us with references to the command to pray to Jehovah. I honestly don’t remember this being anywhere in the Bible.
And, by the way, I addressed D&C 20: 19 in my first post. It seems that you aren’t really reading everything we say, but are selecting those things you prefer to comment on.
ECHO
First, no one here has denied that we worship Jesus Christ, and that we worship the Father. However, we pray only to the Father. As to the one quote in 3 Nephi, I actually addressed that in my first post, so using it now is really meaningly. Speaking of Stephan, he prayed to Jesus, in a sense, because he was in a vision in which he saw Christ, and thus the natural reaction would be to call out to him.
Your comment shows that you really don’t understand the LDS doctrine, because nothing you said is really accurate to our doctrine.
STEPH
I have taken that challenge before, and it only made me realize how true the LDS church is and how much in error everyone else is. You speak as if that is a guarantee to “show people the light” and yet more people have come to the LDS church through that method than have left it (as statistics show).
I prefer pro-God, pro-Jesus, and pro-Christian
Shem, help me to understand what you mean by that. What I see with the LDS church is that it has attempted to fill in a lot of the “blanks”. Meaning that it has tried to answer a lot of questions that are not explained in the Bible. While this may be comforting to seem to have all of our questions answered, we may end up somewhere God did not intend for us to go. To me this is a very normal human tendancy, but we need to be careful with this because if God had intended for us to know EVERYTHING he would have revealed that to us in the Bible. God has revealed all that we really need to know in the Bible: who He is, the way to salvation, what He wants us to do, how He wants us to live, etc.. All of that other added “stuff” (requirements, ordinances, etc) does not need to be there. A deep and intense study of the entire Bible clearly shows the character of God, how He works, and how He deals with us. None of which fits with LDS teachings. In fact it is quite contradictory which is what makes me wonder why the LDS church even uses the Bible at all. You see, the perfect God I believe in is the same always and forever. He has not changed and does not reveal new doctrine to us that contradicts what He has already said in His Word. If the people of Joseph Smith’s time had truly studied and known their Bibles, they would have tested Joseph’s teachings against what God said in the Bible, and would not have accepted those teachings as truth. The moral of this story is: we must study and know what our Bible says! We must test what we are told and use the Bible as our measure. People hear what they want to believe, but the question is: Is is truth? I have an 11 year old son who desparately wants to keep believing in Santa Claus in spite of being told the truth. He soon will see that Santa is not real no matter how much he wants to believe.
Great Almighty God in heaven, thank you for this day. Thank you for extending your call to me, thank you for saving me from myself and your condemnation. My prayer for you today is for you to circumsize hard hearts that do not want to hear and do not want to see. I pray that they will see the light and answer your call. In your Precious and Holy name. Amen
I said I wasn’t going to do this, but since you opened the door and we are having fun, it doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus either. No wonder YOU are so mixed up!! ;)
Shem,
If I were your driving instructor and commanded you to “Do not go through a red light” is that the same understanding as ” Stop at a red light” ?
If you can understand my analogy then you will understand these Bible verses:
(note: in the KJV when ” LORD ” is used in the OT, that is Jehovah )
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
Exodus 23:24
Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices.
Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2 Kings 17:37-39
ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.
And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.
But the LORD your God ye shall fear;
1 Chronicles 16:29
Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
” Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; —–> and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. <—- "
If there is no triune God … then we have Jehovah …. "LORD" (Jesus ) being worshipped by the host of heaven which would include Heavenly Father and Holy Spirit…………………. wouldn't we?
“I prefer pro-God, pro-Jesus, and pro-Christian”
Amen!
Steph,
HAHAHA! well, at least YOU have a sense of humor.
tell me about baptism for the dead. It is mentioned in the Bible. Do you believe in it?
Steph,
who do YOU pray to , and in whose name do you “close” your prayer?
The One True Church
Christ’s promise: “I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Matt. 16:18.
There is one true universal Church and that Church is not a physical building or denomination.
The true Church’s doctrines hold solely to the truth of God’s Word—the Bible.
Members of Christ’s Church are those who have accepted the gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
The Church that Jesus built has true knowledge and understanding of salvation—what it is and what one must do to receive it.
If you understand the one true Church and doctrines, God may be —calling—you. Those He calls will see past the traditions of men, allow their eyes to be opened, and search their Bibles about what Christ really says about the Church He built—and where to find it.
There is only one true Church on Earth: the one that Christ built. Christ tells those of us looking for His Church to prove all things: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. I Thes. 5:21
The visible church, physical church, or church building is where members of Christ’s Church gather or meet on a regular basis to worship God, hear the gospel message, and fellowship with other members of Christ’s Church. This physical church has many valid denominations.
1 Corinthians 12:12
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.
Ephesians 1:22-23
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Additional Reading: http://www.gotquestions.org/true-church.html
See above
Anne, don’t take scripture out of context! No one can do the work of Jesus. He is the only one who can decide where we all go when we die. You can NOT do His work for Him, nor does He need any help from you with this. Jesus said “no one cometh to the Father, but by me”. Do not even think for a moment that He needs you to do this for Him. None of us gets ANY chance after we are dead! Either your name is written in the book of life before you die or it is not PERIOD!
Steph,
I did not take any scripture out of context. YOU said that we try to “fill in the blanks”. I simply asked you what you think about baptism for the dead. It is in the Bible. So you must believe in it. is that a correct assumption? or are there some things in the Bible that you do not believe in?
thanks,
anne
Steph,
oops…i forgot this: you did not “name” to whom you were praying or a “name” to close your prayer in. I was just curious as to “who” you prayed to, and “who” you closed in behalf of. that’s all. it wasn’t a trick question.
~anne
JBR
I understand your analogy, But it does not fit. None of the verses speak to praying to Jehovah, but to worshiping him, which I have never denied, nor has anyone in the LDS church.
The reason your analogy doesn’t work is because it saying that worship and prayer are the same thing, and they are not. Prayer is only one form of worship, one that is reserved to the Father.
To be more accurate we would say that the light mechanism is worship, with the red light being the Father and the yellow being the Son. At both the yellow and red you should slow down (or worship both the Father and the Son) but only at the red do you actually stop (or pray to the Father).
This is perfectly in line with the scriptures you give.
Note: The Host of Heaven does not include the Father or the Son, or any of the gods. The Host of Heaven refers to the angels and the servants of the Guards. Just as the President of the US is the commander of the military but is not part of it. Thus, for the host of heaven to worship Christ is perfectly accurate.
STEPH
“A deep and intense study of the entire Bible clearly shows the character of God, how He works, and how He deals with us.”
I couldn’t agree more, and through that deep and intense study of the Bible we learn that “the Lord God will do nothing, abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3: 7);” that the calling to minister to the church is given to those who are “called of God, as was Aaron (Hebrews 5: 4)” who received his calling through the inspired word of a prophet.” We also know that Christ set up his church with “apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers” to help us progress “unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4: 11-13).”
Of course, none of these truths are in line with the LDS church doctrine. We deny the need for Prophets, allow anyone who feels like it to set up a church, and we have no need for the organization that Christ set up in the early church.
Not to mention we ignore that Christ taught “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16: 16)” or the admonition “work out your own salvation (Philippians 2: 12)” and instead simply claim his work and so no need for baptism. This causes us to have to ignore that Christ will “judged every man according to their works (Revelations 20: 13)” as he has already declared his works will substitute for ours.
I have to admit that we have nothing in common with the Bible.
However, speaking more seriously, we do “fill in the blank” which is much better than twisting what is already there. Peter has warned that “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [the scriptures]…unto their own destruction.”
Answer one question: Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is all we need and all we will ever get?
i will go out on a limb here and predict that we won’t be getting any answers from Steph. She has no answers for your questions, Shem, and she doesn’t want to answer mine.
anne
The warning to not turn to other gospels is in Galatians 1:6-10. As you said, you have nothing in common with the Bible, you have turned to a different gospel. As for Peter, he was warning about people like Mormons who have turned to another gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:12-34
The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
If this is what you are refering to, this clearly shows that Paul is addressing people like Mormons who had decided to add false teachings to the gospel of Christ. False teachings that contradicted even their own false practices like trying to baptize for the dead.
Again, this is why you have to know your Bible. All of it, not just some of it! Put all of the parts together. Baptism for the dead is not Biblical. See previous comments.
To end, since you have admitted that Mormonism has nothing in common with the Bible. It is clear to me from what has been presented that since Mormons pray to a God who was once a man, is flesh and bone, etc; Mormons pray to a different god who is not Biblical. The God of the Bible is spirit. The Bible does not say God was once a man.
But there is good news for all of you:
The Defining Moment
Sitting in a garage all day doesn’t make you a car. And going to church every week doesn’t make you a Christian. According to the Bible, you become a Christian the moment you actively choose to put your faith in Jesus Christ.
Your relationship with God needs to be fixed.
The Bible teaches that we’re all sinners. This is the starting point for salvation, because unless there’s a problem, there’s no need for a solution. Sin separates us from a holy God.
Jesus alone can fix your relationship with God.
It’s all about Jesus. Many people know about Jesus and the cross. They have a vague idea about what all of that means, but it’s important to clarify exactly what the Bible teaches. Here it is: Jesus paid it all. In our culture, we like to think that we can work off our debts. We take great pride in our work ethic. But the message of the Bible is that we are powerless to save ourselves. Powerless. That means we can do absolutely nothing to fix our broken relationship with God.
Some religions teach that we are saved by a combination of Christ’s work and our work. Maybe a really good person can do 70% of the work required to be right with God, but Jesus comes in and makes up the difference. A weaker person might only do 20% of the work, and Jesus makes up the other 80%. But this is not what the Bible teaches. It says we are dead in our sins. Dead people can do nothing. 0%. Jesus did it all for us, and we contribute nothing to it.
Nothing gets fixed without faith.
So here’s the payoff. So far we’ve learned that our relationship with God is broken and only Jesus can fix it. But how does it get fixed? Faith!
Our personal response of faith is what activates the power of the cross in our lives. Here’s a good illustration: imagine that your dad goes down to the car dealer and buys a car for you. He pays for it in full. There’s one simple thing you must do: go get it. If you never go get it, it’ll never be yours.
Jesus paid our debt in full. But we must go get it. We get it by putting our faith in Jesus. When we do that, our sin is forgiven and we have new life in Christ.
Now genuine, saving faith is two-sided. It’s important to know both sides.
Faith starts with the right information.
Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Jesus is God, not just a good teacher. He wasn’t just a man who eventually became a God; he always was and always will be God.
There is one God (in being) who exists in three Persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). You’ll get this more and more as you read the Bible. For now, acknowledge that Jesus is God himself, even if you don’t understand exactly how that relates to the trinity.
Saving faith requires the right information about Jesus.
Faith is completed with the right attitude.
It’s obvious that true saving faith isn’t just about have the right information. The demons know that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross and rose from the dead. But they’re obviously not in a right relationship with God. That’s because true saving faith isn’t just about believing a list of facts in your head. It’s also about your heart.
Having the right heart-attitude toward Christ is what the Bible calls “repentance”. Repentance is about turning. It’s turning from your sins and from your way of doing things. And it’s turning toward Christ and his way of doing things.
Repentance is about having the right attitude toward Christ, it’s about turning toward him in faith and telling him you want to go his way now. But it’s the attitude of repentance that saves you, not the works that follow. In other words, God doesn’t wait to save you until you start walking in your new direction. You’re saved the moment you turn toward him in faith. After all, we’re saved by faith, not works.
Close the deal.
Are you ready for your defining “moment of faith”?
For those who are ready to put their faith in Jesus, pray. Romans 10:9 says,
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
This is the point of the prayer. If you believe this in your heart, declare it with your mouth.
Congratulations! The Bible says the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner turns to Jesus in faith. Rejoice!
Coming to faith is not an end, it’s a beginning! It’s the start of a whole new way of living.
Tell someone what you have done. Learn what it means to be a Christian. Seek the support of fellow Christians.
Steph,
Why would Paul use a “false” teaching to support and teach the truth?
~Anne
ps. do you have parents and siblings that are still LDS?
My prayer was to God. The spirit God of the Bible. I end my prayers in the name of Jesus as He intercedes for me and paid the price for all of my sins (the Bible told me so). I do not pray to the flesh and bone god of Mormonism so as to avoid idolatry nor do I end my prayers in name of the LDS Jesus who only covers the sins of Mormons partially after all Mormons have done.
Good Day!
Paul mentions the unBiblical custom of baptism for the dead to substantiate his argument regarding the resurrection for the dead because he knew his audience. He knew the people there would be able to understand what he was saying by speaking to them using terms or practices they would understand so as to lead them back to the true Gospel of Christ. Paul did that all the time! Here’s a tip for you: follow the steps in my previous post, give your life to Christ, then when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you can ask the Holy Spirit to give you the wisdom you need to understand the Bible. The more you read and the more you ask the more you will understand! Cool huh? Aren’t you glad we are here to help you understand?
Nope, parents and siblings are NOT LDS.
Thanks for all the rabbit trails. I have really enjoyed hopping along with you. It keeps me on my toes and came in handy this afternoon when I convinced an LDS aunt to come to church with me this Sunday!!!!!
GOD IS SOOOOOO GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steph,
Paul was speaking to the SAINTS of Corinth. He was not talking to a group of idol worshippers. He used a familiar practice (baptism for the dead) to REMIND them that resurrection was true.
I sincerely doubt that anyone would use a “false” teaching to support a “true” teaching. It does not make sense, and Paul DID NOT DO IT. Ever! And you could not find a place where he did.
nice try, though.
The fullness of the Gospel is back on earth and I am so sorry that you missed the boat! oh well, bon voyage!
~anne
STEPH
You really don’t understand sarcasm if you actually think I was admitting anything that you claimed. It was all a sarcastic reply to show how much of the Bible we are in line with, and how much you have to ignore to make your doctrine work.
Nice try though.
I noticed that in all your little lecture you only actually reference one scripture in support of anything you say. I find that interesting, as you claim to be so intimately familiar with the Bible that I would have expected you to actually use it to prove your points, rather than just assuming your grand speech would be enough to convince us.
Please, address each verse that I have given and explain how it is contrary to LDS doctrine, or why it is not contrary to yours. So far all you have is a description of your personal beliefs, but nothing else; while I have actually given the verses that support my beliefs.
I also notice that you did not answer my question, and so I eagerly await an answer, if you have one.
Note: Anne is right that using a false doctrine to teach a true doctrine is counter productive. If he had been addressing non-believing gentiles than it would make sense, but he is addressing the faithful; people who had already accepted the gospel. He would not use a false practice to teach them anything, except how false it was.
Consider: He tells them “If you believe in baptism for the dead you should believe in the resurrection.” He would later have to tell them “Baptism for the dead is a false practice.” This causes many to ask “If baptism for the dead is false, and it was based on this that he argued the resurrection, why should we believe the resurrection.” He has now destroyed his credibility and damaged the faith of the Corinthian saints.
The only time that Paul uses a false doctrine to teach a true one was on Mars Hill when he referenced the superstition of the Greeks in setting up an alter to “the Unknown God.” But then he never used this to support the truth, but simply to introduce it.
ANNE
You may be right, but I think we should give Steph a little longer to answer the questions. It may be a little early to give up.
Steph,
what is a rabbit trail?
Here is what Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie has to say about worshipping Jesus…
“I shall express the views of the Brethren, of the prophets and apostles of old, and of all those who understand and are in tune with the Holy Spirit…. Everyone who is sound spiritually and who has the guidance of the Holy Spirit will believe my words and follow my counsel…. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the Scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense -the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator (Bruce McConkie, “Our Relationship with the Lord,” 2 March 1982)
Shem,
I know our purpose is not to win the argument, but win the soul.
But I must say, even for you, there was a lot of wanton far reaching rationalizing in what you said to me.
You said ………. ” Prayer is only one form of worship” … that is rationalizing because as you said:
Prayer is only one “form” of worship. Ya… it’s a form of worship.
Look up the definition of the word “worship …… other actions \ practices \ motives that a person does is also a
” form of worship”.
You would have to wantonly rationalize that one can segregate the act of prayer to it’s own classification per normal word comprehension.
_______________________________________________________________
It is not more accurate to associate the light signal as the way you described, because the red \ yellow \ green are not three light signals… but one signal.
Red =Father
Yellow = Holy Spirit
Green = Son (Jesus) .
—————————–There are not three light signals… but one light signal
——————————There are not three Gods…. but one God
The “don’t walk” \ “walk” = obedience to the law \ Gospel faith.
To get from one side to the other side of the intersection is not possible by the “don’t walk” Romans 3:28
Heavy sigh, here we go again! You do not see the forest for the trees. You have to look at the big picture.
Who were the saints in Corinth? They were new believers. What problems did the church in Corinth have? The problem was division (see 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, 3:1-23, 5:1-13, 6:1-20, 8:1-13, 10:14-22). These saints had some serious problems! Why? Because they were new believers, they were having problems with what they used to believe, the ways of their culture, etc. BEING A SAINT DOES NOT MEAN PERFECTION, never did, never will!!!! Again, Paul knew his audience. If you have read his writings you can see the way he spoke to people differently depending on what he knew their backgrounds were (jew or gentile) and what their problems were. He spoke to them in ways he knew they would understand (see Hebrews for a contrast on how he addressed the “saints” of a jewish background).
Have things changed so much today? No, the LDS church has made a similar mistake. It has strayed from the Gospel of Christ. Why? People haven’t really changed all that much. Why? The sin nature of the flesh!
Paul always taught the gospel of Christ. His making mention of a practice that was being performed (baptism for the dead) does not make it a teaching of Paul, nor does it make it the Gospel of Christ.
Now, you show me where Christ taught that we should baptize for the dead.
I do not speak to you in terms of scripture because you do not understand scripture. You only understand the LDS twisted version of scripture. Remember how Satan twisted scripture in the temptation of Christ to try to get Him to stumble? Good thing Jesus understood scripture.
Now, here is some “meat” for you and guess what? It is not even a “secret”. Why? Because it is in the Bible and God does not keep secrets from us:
Jesus made it clear that we can NOT follow the law perfectly. For example, man could not even follow one command. They ate the fruit! Man could not follow the 10 commandments. OY! Man certainly could not follow all of the other laws given by Moses and He knew it! What happened, they suffered Gods wrath! So then God knew He had to send Jesus to save us from ourselves! And look at what is still happening. People still can’t get it right! Jesus said, if you have so much as had anger in your heart you have already killed! Jesus said, if you have had lust in your heart, you have commited adultary! Jesus said, if you have coveted, you have sinned. Who here has never lied, never wanted what someone else has? Jesus said He is the only one who can fix your sin problem!!!!!!! THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO FIX YOUR SIN PROBLEM!!! Now, if you think there is anything YOU can do to fix your sins, then you don’t need Jesus because you are perfect! Congrats! You have managed to do what no one but Jesus has done. Give your life to Christ, discover the freedom He will give you from the law and commandments. How? This is how: repent, give your life to Christ, go straight to heaven when you die. Follow Him and His teachings alone (emphasis: love God, love others, serve, give) recognizing that those are things we do because we love Him and He loves us, not because those things get us into heaven. When you sin (and yes, you will), repent, turn back to God, and recognize you were already forgiven of that sin you just commited the moment you put your faith in Christ alone! Don’t do this, keep believing you can fix your sin problem, suffer God’s wrath, spend eternity in hell.
There you go the gospel in a nutshell. Take it or leave it. God gave you the free will to choose.
Now, I am going to shake the dust off of my feet and put my hope in God, that He will call to someone who wants to go to heaven when they die!
Freedom from Mormonism
Steph,
wow, you drank every drop of the koolaid!
I used to be a confused Methodist. I KNOW what they teach. I tried every other church in my town before I found one that made sense.
one that had 1. Prophets, apostles, priesthood, baptism, the Spirit. and I could go on and on.
You must not have paid attention in Sunday School or Young Women’s or anywhere else. You have the LDS beliefs all twisted. I don’t know why you joined the Church, or why you left, but sister you MISSED THE BOAT!
NO ONE teaches a TRUTH with a FALSEHOOD!!!
that is pure garbage. I am familiar with Paul and his teaching methods. Name ONE other time that he taught that way??????? YOU CAN’T DO IT, BECAUSE HE NEVER DID IT! Baptism for the dead was an established ordinance in the Church of Christ, for the very reason you yourself stated before…because God is the same yesterday, today and forever. How could a reasonable, loving God deny his children the opportunity to be baptized when he made baptism a requirement for salvation? He wouldn’t be just, or fair…..he wouldn’t be GOD!
Jesus DID tell us (in 2 Peter) that he was going to teach the Spirits in prison….the ones who lived in the days of Noah….the ones who would be JUDGED as if in the flesh. Kind of shoots your whole position in the foot, heh?
Don’t worry….I am not holding my breath for you to agree with me. YOU have lost what little spirit you had or you would not be so hell-bent on twisting scripture to fit your agenda. I don’t NEED to twist or shrink-wrap the scriptures to make them fit my beliefs!
The restoration of the Gospel is here. The LDS Church has all the ordinances, the authority and the SPIRIT necessary to return to Heavenly Father. Maybe your “Aunt” will do your temple work some day and you can eek out some form of salvation. But since you have denied the truth, you might be out of luck.
~anne
Echo,
I didn’t watch your video…i don’t have time for drivel. I did want to tell you that “strictly” speaking, Elder McConkie is right. Our FULL worship is reserved for God our Heavenly Father. We love, follow, revere and adore our Savior…..which might be considered a form of worship.
anne
The true Church of God has one Prophet: JESUS.
The true Church has apostles that without a doubt are the apostles Jesus himself chose.
The True Church has the priesthood. The priesthood of all believers everywhere, be they male or female.
The True Church of God has Baptism as God’s sign and seal that he has made us his.
The True Church of God has God himself living within them.
Anne said: “NO ONE teaches a TRUTH with a FALSEHOOD!!!”
You teach that we are to obey all the commandments but you don’t obey all the commandments. “NO ONE teaches a TRUTH with a FALSEHOOD!!!” “What you say is pure garbage!!!!” Until you obey all the commandments your teaching a truth with a falsehood!!!
How’s that for a sense of Humor? :)
Sorry Anne, I can’t use humor with you because I don’t want to hurt your feelings, ridicule you or be disrespectful towards you. But the fact of the matter is, you did say that no one teaches a truth with a falsehood. And saying you must obey all the commandments and then actually not obeying them yourself, really means you cannot teach the truth that we must obey all the commandments when you continually fail to keep all the commandments.
I fail too. But Jesus has rescued both you and I. Watch the video. :)
The video was LDS quotes and quotes from the bible. Is that “Drivel” to you?
Check out the video :)
1 Peter 3:8-22
New International Version (NIV)
Suffering for Doing Good
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,
“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[a]
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.” 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
First, let’s look at the word spirits. It is from the Greek word pneumasin, a form of the word pneuma, which means “air, breath, wind.” It is used in the New Testament to refer to angels (Hebrews 1:14), demons (Mark 1:23), the spirit of Jesus (Matthew 27:50), and the Holy Spirit (John 14:17). While the Bible makes it clear that human beings have spirits (Hebrews 4:12), the Bible never refers to human beings as “spirits.” We have spirits, but are not spirits. God the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons do not have spirits; they are spirits. So the standard meaning of the word spirits in the phrase “spirits in prison” seems to argue for the spirits being something other than human beings.
If the spirits in prison are not the spirits of deceased human beings, and we know that the Holy Spirit is not imprisoned, and that God’s holy angels are not imprisoned, that leaves us with one option—the spirits in prison are demons. Now, it is clear that not all the demons are imprisoned. The New Testament gives countless examples of demonic activity. So the spirits in prison must be a select group of demons who, unlike the rest of their demonic allies, were at one point imprisoned.
What might be a possible reason for some, but not all, of the demons to be imprisoned? Jude verse 6 gives us an important clue, “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.” Again, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that not all of the demons are “bound with everlasting chains.” Jude verse 6, which is similar to 1 Peter 3:19, must be speaking of a select group of demons who sinned even more grievously against God.
What might this sin have been? Genesis 6:1-4 records the “sons of God” mating with the “daughters of men” and producing a race of giants, the Nephilim. The sons of God were fallen angels (demons) who mated with human females, and this is the most likely identity of the spirits in prison in 1 Peter 3:19. The demons who committed this sin were imprisoned by God to prevent them from recommitting this sin, and to discourage the other demons from participating in the sin. This interpretation is also supported by the fact that 1 Peter 3:20 mentions “the days of Noah,” and the sons of God incident occurred just prior to God sending the flood in Noah’s time (Genesis 6).
The spirits in prison mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19 were demons who sinned grievously against God by “abandoning their proper abode” (Jude 6) in the incident involving the sons of God and daughters of men (Genesis 6:1-4).
Second,
Water baptism symbolizes the believer’s total trust in, and total reliance on, the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as a commitment to live obediently to Him. We are baptized because our Lord commanded it and because we obey Him. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).
Before we are baptized we must come to believe that we are sinners in need of salvation (Romans 3:23). We must also believe that Christ died on the cross to atone for our sins, that He was buried, and that He was resurrected to assure our place in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We then turn to Jesus, asking Him to forgive our sins and to be our Lord and Savior, and the moment we do that we are born again, our eternal salvation is guaranteed, and we begin to die to ourselves and live for Christ (1 Peter 1:3-5).
At the river, pool or baptismal font, we let ourselves be completely immersed in the water. This symbolizes burial with our Lord; we are baptized into His death on the cross and are no longer slaves to self or sin (Romans 6:3-7). When we are raised out of the water, we are symbolically resurrected—raised to our new life in Christ and to be with Him forever, born into the family of our loving God (Romans 8:16).
The fact that baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation is best seen in the example of a saved man who was not baptized in water, the criminal on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). This self-confessed sinner came to acknowledge Jesus as his Lord while dying on a cross next to Him, and he asked for salvation and was forgiven of his sins. Although he never experienced water baptism, at that moment he was baptized into Christ’s death, and he then was raised to life by the power of Christ’s word (Hebrews 1:3).
Christians have been commanded to be baptized, and we should do so out of obedience to, and love for, our Lord Christ Jesus (John 14:15). Water baptism is the biblical method of baptism because of its symbolic representation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Baptism for the Dead.
The practice has as its basis the misinterpretation of Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?” This is a difficult passage to interpret, but we do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by being baptized by someone else, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses they, not “we”), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural or sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
To get back on point: Mormons worship a God of their own making.
Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ. In contrast, Christians know this about God: there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8), He always has existed and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17), and He was not created but is the Creator (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect, and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).
with a title like “freedom from mormonism” it is pure drivel.
and as usual your analogy is lacking. as is your understanding of scripture. like i said, i don’t need to tweak scripture to get it to fit my beliefs.
some day….some day….
“Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance” ~Albert Einstein
One more time—
Who is the God of Jesus Christ? (John 20:17) Who did Jesus pray to? Whose voice came from heaven at his baptism? Why will no one answer these very simple questions?
Your question was answered above. :)
Echo,
Do YOU need to dig through garbage to see if it smells? I don’t.
This has NOTHING to do with lack of investigation. Garbage is Garbage is Garbage. no need to investigate and only a fool would think otherwise.
And NEVER worry that you are going to offend me. I can’t imagine anything that would do so. I am not out to offend anyone, either, and I trust that anyone on this site is Christian and has good intentions.
I still stand by my claim that NO ONE in the Bible (with the exception of Satan) has used a FALSE teaching to SUPPORT a TRUE TEACHING. It isn’t done, it hasn’t been done nor will it EVER be done. You guys might just as well concede on this point! Chalk it up to a “mistake” in the translation! Or,I guess you could say I was right….when pigs fly!
Enjoy your Sabbath!
~anne
JBR
If you will actually pay attention to what I said you would see how your critisism is false.
First, your analogy doesn’t work partly because it is one mechanism and there are three Gods, not one.
Second, I never claimed that my analogy was perfect, only that it was better than yours in addressing what the LDS believe, which is the subject of this thread.
To explain further, there are three separate and distinct lightbulbs in the signal mechanism. They are all joined by the machanism into one purpose, and thus become one. The color of the shielding indicates what kind of worship we are to use in dealing with each individual.
ECHO
I agree with Brother McConkie as well, and would simply say that this is what we have been saying from the start, though I think he may have said it better.
As to your Albert Einstine quote, answer this: If you found a book that professed to prove that the United States never existed and the Revolution never occured, would you investigate it for truth, or would you dismiss it as a hoax?
To conclude, Anne, nor any other LDS person that I know, has used a lie to teach a truth. Your reasoning is so skewed it is difficult to even see where you come from. Anne does teach that all the commandments much be obeyed (according to gospel law), but she has never used her own imperfection to support this doctrine, and thus has not used it to teach it. She has also never lied about her imperfection. Actually, she has admitted her imperfection and, along with the rest of us, has explained how that relates to the doctrine of obedience and the atonement. No lie was told, and no false doctrine was used to support (and thus teach) any truth. A rather baffling attempt to portray us and our doctrine in a false light, which failed beautifully.
STEPH
I love the arrogance and condessension of your posts. You don’t use scripture because we can’t understand it. Please. Don’t insult my intelligence. You don’t use scripture because you know you have no real argument supported by it. You know that it is simply a matter of interpretation. I find it rather funny. We have given you the references that support our doctrine, and your only reply is an evasive tactic to steer us away from the word of God. Are we to take your words over those of the Bible? Are you not setting yourself above the Bible where we are concerned?
Now, I will admit that I can be a little arrogant at times, but I always let the scriptures speak for me. I have never told anyone that they needed to learn from me before they could be ready to learn from the scriptures.
Quote honestly, unless you are willing to discuss things through the scriptures and accept that we are just as intelligent and understanding of the scriptures as you are I can’t discuss anything with you. So, until you address the passages I sited, and answer the question I asked I will not be responding to another of your posts.
Notes: If no one can keep the law perfectly than why are Noah and Job described as being perfect (Gen. 6: 9 and Job 1: 1, 8; 2:3 respectively).
Also, Anne is right. It is rubbish that anyone would use a lie to teach a truth; and if he used Baptism for the Dead to support resurrection than he has taught it as a truth by virtue of association.
Falsehoods:
Linguistics. Why, if the American Indians were descended from Lehi, was there such diversity in their languages, and why were there no vestiges of Hebrew in any of them?
Why does the Book of Mormon say that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America? The horse did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them over in the sixteenth century.
Why was Nephi stated to have a bow of steel? Jews did not have steel at that time, and no iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization.
Why does the Book of Mormon mention “swords and cimeters” when scimitars (the current spelling) did not come about until the rise of Islam after 500 A.D.?
Why does the Book of Mormon mention silk, when silk did not exist in the Americas at that time?
Let me add my own question here. Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth (History of the Church, 4:461). If that’s true, why has it been subjected to thousands of corrections and alterations since it was first published? Also, some of the LDS scholars to whom I referred in the second paragraph found that the American Indians are genetically more similar to Asians. No Hebrew link can be made through DNA analysis.
There are also doctrinal discrepancies between the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and other source of LDS doctrine. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, then why the contradictions? For example:
D&C 130:3 says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” But in Alma 34:36, it says, “And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.”
Joseph Smith said, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345) This introduced the doctrine of eternal progression, which Brigham Young forcefully expounded upon. [Eternal Progression teaches that God was once a man who progressed to Godhood, and we humans have the ability to do the same through strict adherence to LDS doctrines and temple rites.] Yet Moroni 8:18 says, “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable, from all eternity to all eternity.”
When Joseph Smith contradicts the Book of Mormon, we can reach only one of two conclusions. Either he did not write the Book of Mormon under divine guidance and is therefore a false prophet, or he decided to contradict the teachings of God, in which case he is a false prophet. Smith also stated that no one could see God without the Holy Priesthood. Yet according to his own account, he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ nine years before he himself received the priesthood!
We can also look at Smith’s prophecies directly. In Doctrine and Covenants 87:2, Smith predicted that the American Civil War would “be poured out upon all nations.” This did not occur. In Doctrine and Covenants 84:4-5, he prophesied that a temple would be built in Independence, Missouri during that generation. There is still no such temple. The list goes on. He obviously fails the test of a prophet as outlined in Deuteronomy 18:21-22.
Paul warned of false prophets in 2 Corinthians 11:13, “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.” As for the Book of Mormon, and its claim as the “fullness of the everlasting gospel,” Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
The evidence is clear that the Book of Mormon cannot be correct, and Joseph Smith was a false prophet who has deceived many. The truth is that the Bible contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We cannot and should not blaspheme Almighty God by presuming that we can someday become gods, as the LDS doctrine of eternal progression teaches. Satan’s first recorded lie to Adam and Eve was a promise that they would be godlike in their knowledge if they simply disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit. False prophets have perpetuated the lie that promises godhood or godlike qualities ever since.
Why most are afraid to leave the LDS church: Many sincere Latter Day Saints simply do not know the evidence against the Book of Mormon, and are discouraged from investigating it. An LDS friend was told by her Bishop and her husband to stop investigating the claims of their founding “prophet.” Why discourage honest investigation? Acts 17:11 tells us that the Bereans were of noble character because they “searched the scriptures daily” to see if what Paul was preaching was the truth. Unfortunately, my friend yielded to pressure from her husband and bishop, and ultimately broke off social contact.
The other reason has to deal with courage versus comfort. I’ve personally known a couple of Mormons who left the LDS Church for the true gospel of Jesus Christ after they realized that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Those are two of the most courageous people I know, as they suffered severe pressure, persecution, and isolation from their LDS families, friends, and community. I’ve known other Mormons who admitted to me that they knew Mormonism was a false religion based on the lies of a false prophet, but were too afraid to leave the Church for fear of the same kind of treatment. They had comfortable lives as tithing members of the LDS Church, and were too afraid to face the potential loss of family, friends, and indeed, their entire social circle should they leave.
Most Mormons I’ve known have been very sincere, decent people. Many hold their religious beliefs strongly. When those beliefs are shown to fail the test in the light of the truth of the gospel, it can be a frightening and life-altering event. Members of the LDS Church can choose to ignore or excuse the evidence, or they can face it with courage. Mormon missionaries tell people to pray to see if the Book of Mormon is true. I encourage the reader to read your Bible in depth, as a Berean would, to see if the the claims are true or false.
The Book of Mormon is said to be: “…the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 194).
The Book of Mormon doesn’t teach anything about baptism for the dead nor that it is a necessary ordinance. What the Book of Mormon DOES teach is that when a person DIES IN HIS SINS, the devil has sealed him as his own and that that is the final state of the wicked (see Alma 34:34,35).
Since those who die in their sins are sealed to the devil and become his, there is no need for Baptism for the dead. The fate of those who die in their sins has already been sealed.
Love thy neighbor as yourself?
Questions for Mormons:
If the Book of Mormon really contains the fullness of the Gospel, why does it not teach the doctrine of “eternal progression”? (See D&C 20:8,9)
God said, “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any”. How can there be Gods who are Elohim’s ancestors? Surely an all-knowing God would know this and wouldn’t speak falsehoods. (See Isa. 44:8 and Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 123)
How can any men ever become Gods when the Bible says, “Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me”? (Isaiah 43:10)
Joseph Smith stated that without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood no man can see the face of God and live (D & C 84:21, 22). He also said that he saw God in 1820 (Joseph Smith 2:17). Joseph Smith, however, never received any priesthood until 1829 (D&C 13). How did he see God and survive? In which was he in error: his revelation in D & C 84:21, 22 or his experience in the grove?
If a spirit is a being without a body (See Luke 24:39), why do Mormons teach that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? (See John 4:24)
If the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel, why doesn’t it teach that God was once a man?
If Mormonism is the restored church, which is based upon the Bible, why are Mormon leaders so quick to state that the Bible is “translated wrong” when faced with some conflict between the Bible and Mormonism?
Why does the Mormon church teach that there is no eternal hell when the Book of Mormon teaches that there is? (I Nephi 14:3, II Ne. 9:16;28: 21-23, Mosiah 3:25, Alma 34:35, Heleman 6:28 and 3:25,26).
How can Mormons teach that the repentant thief was not saved when the Book of Mormon states that Paradise is where the righteous go? (Luke 23:43, Alma 40:12, 16)
If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to become white when they become Mormons? (II Nephi 30:6 – prior to 1981 revision)
Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269) Why did the Mormons yield to the pressure of the government and stop practicing polygamy?
Question for Anne:
If baptism for the dead was a Christian ceremony, why did Paul use the pronoun “they” rather than “we” or “ye”? Why did he exclude himself and other Christians when referring to it? (I Cor. 15:29)
Echo,
Baptism for the dead, or any saving ordinance performed for the dead are for people WHO DID NOT HAVE the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel in mortality.
IF you reject the Gospel (like Steph has) then temple work after your death does not necessarily help you…..and I say that because I am not the judge. The Lord will judge their hearts on a case by case basis. But, in other words, work for the dead is not a “second” chance. It is a first chance.
If someone dies in their sins, they have not repented and availed themselves of the Atonement of Christ. It tells us that they “chose” to die in their sins. It does not apply to ignorance. They belong to the devil…. kind of like how the Mormons on this site are condemned to hell regularly because you say we are not “saved”.
The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. It is true and NO ONE has ever come close to proving otherwise! It teaches that baptism is a necessary ordinance, and does so much more clearly than the Bible.
Keep reading the Book of Mormon. It is good for you! :)
(I like 2nd Nephi chapters 30 and 31.)
~anne
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:6-12
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
One common tactic that Satan uses to deceive people is to claim new revelations that aren’t in the Bible. His bag of tricks includes written “revelations” like the Book of Mormon. These extra-Biblical revelations are often very seductive because they offer alleged secret knowledge that wasn’t revealed in the Bible.
What most people who get caught up in these cults don’t realize is who they’re matching wits with. Most of us like to think we’ve got reasonably good instincts and that we’re pretty good at spotting a phony. We probably can do a pretty good job when matching wits with most other people. Perhaps that gives us a false sense of security that we mistakenly think also applies to matching wits with the spiritual world.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8
The problem is that when we try to match wits with Satan, he’s going to win almost every time if we try to go it alone. It is vital to remember who Satan is. When he was created, he was number two in Heaven, second only to God Himself. It was because of his amazing, in-depth knowledge and power that he became prideful and foolishly believed he could be an equal to his creator. When Satan was ejected from Heaven, the Bible didn’t say that God took away all that knowledge or his ability to engage in supernatural activities. The truth is that Satan is a master deceiver and story teller. He knows what ingredients he must weave into his story telling to make them alluring to unsuspecting, and uninformed people. His goal is to seduce us away so that we will follow him willingly, even cheerfully. He’s not going to have near the success if he tries clobbering us over the head with obvious demonic doctrines and he’s smart enough to know that. He mixes just enough truth in with his lies to sneak the lies past us, under our radar.
He understands the intense curiosity that humans posses and plays to it by spinning elaborate tales that dazzle and amaze us. His ability to engage in razzle-dazzle would make even the best Hollywood special effects artists blush. He plays on our fears by soothing us with lying reassurances that Hell does not exist, or by focusing only on God’s love and mercy while distracting us away from God’s judgment and wrath. He plays to our pride and or desire for power by telling us we too can become gods. He exploits our desire to trust by false reassurances that these extra-Biblical revelations are in harmony with the Bible. He plays to our desire to be loved by mixing in strong messages of love with the poison that will ultimately lead to our spiritual death in Hell. His ability to deceive would make the combined Psychological Operations units of all the world’s military’s seem like childish amateurs.
For those who lack a solid biblical foundation about how Satan operates, and what Biblical doctrines he normally attacks, he can play them like a fiddle. These deceived people will often experience a false sense of peace that comes from the new “enlightenment” they believe they’ve received from the extra-Biblical revelations, whatever they happen to be. They may go to their graves thinking all is well, and looking forward to an eternity in heaven, only to discover the ugly truth when it’s too late. They will learn in the next life that like sheep to the slaughter, Satan had been leading them around by the nose the whole time with his tall tales, signs and wonders and clever deceptions.
It doesn’t have to be this way. The good news is that God did not leave us defenseless against this kind of trickery. He gave us everything we need in the Bible to enable us to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Jeremiah 7:4-6
4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
Jeremiah 7:23-24
23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward.
WWJD,
I don’t know! You’d have to ask him. I just know that NO ONE uses a false teaching to support a truth. It doesn’t happen, it is ridiculous to think that Paul did that. Can you name one other time that it was done? Nope, you can’t.
~anne
Shem,
three Gods …… ?
“Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”? (Isaiah 43:10)
Anne, when Paul used the word “they”, do you think that he could have been talking about the pagans in Corinth who were performing baptism for the dead to solidify that even the pagans must believe in resurrection by performing such a practice. Do you think that since that passage is addressing the resurrection, that Paul was using this to correct some problems with what some in Corinth were teaching about resurrection? If Paul were addressing the saints here, why did he not use the word “we”. Can you show me in the gospels where Jesus taught the practice of baptism for the dead? Why would Jesus have taught such a practice? Did Joseph Smith ever give the Mormon Church false teachings?
To answer your question, at Mars Hill: Paul starts at a reference point. He starts with what they understand, and then quickly moves them to the truth.
WWJD,
Nope, not buying it. NO ONE USES a FALSE premise to teach a TRUTH. You might point out how far someone has strayed to make a point…..but NO ONE uses a FALSEHOOD to SUPPORT the truth.
No, Joseph did not introduce any falsehoods into the Church. He restored the original, “primitive” Church as Christ organized it, under the direction of the Savior himself.
yes, Christ referenced vicarious work for the dead in 2 Peter.
Christ taught that baptism was necessary to salvation. How could he be fair and just unless baptism is available to ALL? This is not rocket science, folks! It is a wonderful, amazing blessing!
~anne
Anne, 2 Peter is not one of the gospels. The gospels are: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. You did not answer my question. Where in the gospels did Christ teach baptism for the dead? Which verse in 2 Peter are you talking about?
Anne, Paul did not include himself in the group with those performing baptism for the dead (“they” indicates he was talking about others who were baptizing for the dead). If Paul himself were participating in this practice, why did he not say “we”. Please keep in mind, just because Paul is able to relate to the culture, that does not mean he approves of the culture.
Paul is condemning this culture for their ignorance and foolishness. He is not trying to copy the culture, imitate it or simply “upgrade it” with a Christian message. He uses it simply to start with a common point of knowledge.
We cannot afford to simply adapt to the culture around us. In that case, we loose the gospel message entirely. If the culture is already acceptable or at least amoral, then there is no need of saving it! Instead of adapting to culture, we must seek to transform it. To do this, however, we cannot be ignorant of it.
We cannot build a doctrine based on that. We need more. We need to know what is biblical and what is not, based on the entire bible. Since God is not a God of confusion, He tells us what His ways are and what is not His way. We know that when we see things mentioned in the bible, as in God’s law in the Old Testament, we also see it in practice in the gospels as well. We also know that the Church of Corinth was a church that was practicing some strange rituals. They had lost their way and Paul’s letter was sent to correct that. That alone should make us suspicious and cause us to question his motives for mentioning baptisms for the dead—if the context to the chapter were not obvious already. If it were a practice of the early church, and a teaching of Jesus Christ that Paul taught as well, shouldn’t it have appeared somewhere else in scripture? Perhaps Paul just wasn’t that concerned about the dead. And perhaps Jesus had better things to do. The idea of baptizing the dead so that people could be resurrected who would otherwise be lost for all eternity is a rather astonishing idea. And there is much to be lost if the Church has failed to practice this exercise. Were it not the pagan ritual that it is, then we should have seen it put into practice by the early church. The book of Acts gave us many examples to follow, preaching, baptism, and laying on of hands, to name a few.
The Lord tells us to set our minds upon the things of Christ. In 2 Corinthians 10:5 it says; ‘Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ’. The church keeps their members busy so they don’t have the time to think about the obedience of Christ, let alone anything He would want them to do, i.e., studying His Word.
So then, you believe these teachings:
1 Nephi 2:8; “And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.”
Smith claims all the books he wrote came from direct revelation from God or he “translated them through the spirit of God”. The book of Nephi is the first book in the Book of Mormon. No river has ever emptied into the Red Sea. Not now, not ever. This is a false prophecy.
Oliver Huntington Journal, Book 14; also found in The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ MIA, 1892, 3:263-64 and Journal of Discourses 13:271 by Brigham Young.
In 1837 Joseph Smith prophesied to Oliver Huntington; “Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style and quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph Smith the Seer.”
Journal of Discourses 13:271-2; “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed “the man in the moon,” and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”
Recorded in the Journal of Oliver B. Huntington was the account of Joseph Smith’s prophecy about the inhabitants on the moon. The Church actually printed the copy of his journal in two different church authorized manuals; The Young Woman’s Journal and the Young Ladies MIA as late as 1892; obviously giving their approval. Mormons will say that Smith wasn’t speaking as a prophet at the time, but notice in the Journal of Discourses the way that Brigham Young backs up Smith’s prophecy and adds even more to it!
Anne, God is indeed fair and just. The Bible says there will be punishment for those who defy God.
If the LDS church teaches that people are basically good, and most are going to some level of Mormon heaven, then what good is baptism for the dead? The question is how do you know what is fair and just for someone? Is your practice extending something to someone who does not deserve it?
WWJD,
wow, you dumped your whole load of venom in one post. I don’t know why you hate the LDS church and the Prophet Joseph Smith, but you must feel threatened in some way?
where to begin?
Baptism/Baptism for the dead; Christ taught that baptism was required for Salvation. (not resurrection…which is unconditional, everyone will be resurrected). My Heavenly Father is just and fair. If he made a requirement, he would allow ALL people the opportunity to fulfill the requirement. IF someone lived during a time in history when there was no authorized Priesthood on the earth, then they would need to be baptized after death. EVEN though people might be basically “good”, THEY MUST BE BAPTIZED as a requirement FOR SALVATION!
How can you believe in a God who is a respecter of persons? How can you believe that God runs a lottery and picks winners? I would say that is the troubling “principle”. Not a kind, loving gesture of vicarious temple work.
AFTER ALL…don’t YOU believe in vicarious work for the dead? Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice was and IS infinite, reaching through time EVEN to those who were dead! and to those who were yet to be born!
River into the Red Sea: I suppose you were there and you know that no river runs into the Red Sea?
Journal of Discourses: You are looking through a pin hole. you do not know the whole scope of the world’s history, and you have cherry picked the most random quotes you could find. that is a sign of desperation.
YOU SAID:
” The church keeps their members busy so they don’t have the time to think about the obedience of Christ, let alone anything He would want them to do, i.e., studying His Word.”
I am not sure what you meant by this. Do you have any knowledge of what goes on daily in the homes of members of the Church? I think not. This was just some form of prejudicial garbage. YOU DON”T HAVE A CLUE!
I wouldn’t THINK of judging YOU or any other Christian. But, it is common fare for us to be judged here. I can only believe that your hatred for our Church and beliefs has rotted your Christian values.
My husband and I routinely express gratitude for our GOOD Christian neighbors and friends. I am happy to say that my children’s Christian teachers are easy to talk to about prayer and faith. I am glad that SOME Christians think the best of us as LDS’ and do not denigrate our faith.
After all, it is our FAITH!
WWJD>>>>> What would Jesus Do??? YOU DON”T SEEM TO HAVE A CLUE!
~Anne
Jeremiah 8:7-9
7 Even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons,
and the dove, the swift and the thrush
observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know
the requirements of the LORD.
8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the LORD,
what kind of wisdom do they have?
Blind Faith
Improvement Era, June 1945; “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.”
Ensign, August 1979, pg. 2; “Recently, at the Churchwide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks, … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108). I was impressed by that simple statement, which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us.”
Matt. 15:8-9, 14-15: “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”
An example of a false premise to teach a truth is the opinion that continuing revelations are needed to be revealed beyond what is already found in the Bible.
When one convinces themself of that, it pretty much opens oneself to anything the imagination allows it.
An example of a false premise to teach a truth is the opinion that continuing revelations are needed to be revealed beyond what is already found in the Bible.
When one convinces themself of that, it pretty much opens oneself to anything the imagination allows it.
(if anyone knows why 1862rancho appears instead of the JBR… I would appreciate a explanation)
Anne, you seem very angry which makes me sad because you do not know the sorrow that is in my heart for you and others of your faith. I live in UT, surrounded by many Mormons whom I love truly and deeply. I know what goes on, how you live your lives, what things you do. I’ve seen it up close and personal. Mormons are my friends, coworkers, neighbors, and extended family. I love them all. I love them so much that it hurts to see what they are doing to themselves. I love them enough to want to share the truth with them. I care about you enough to share the truth with you. The truth is, the Gospel according to Christ, who said that no one comes to the father but by HIm. The Christ who died for all of our sins, not just part of them after all we can do. The Christ who said “I AM”, I am God! The Christ who said if your name is not written in the book of life before you die there will be no second chance. Those Christians you know do not think the best of you, if they do they are not Christians. They say nothing to you because they are afraid. Afraid of putting you off. Afraid of losing your friendship. Afraid that your response to the Gospel message of Christ will be one of anger and defense. Afraid of confronting Mormons because of the typical Mormon response to reject anything, but the Mormon message. They know that if they try to tell you the truth you will only go around and around with them like you have done in this blog refusing to hear what they are trying to tell you so they do not try. God Bless you Anne! May you someday accept the truth.
Have you signed into Worpress somewhere else under the name 1862rancho recently?
580 REASONS (and counting) WHY YOU SHOULD LEAVE THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
http://www.lifeafter.org/reasons.asp
Come to think of it… yes.
That’s why. :)
Jeremiah 9:13-16
13 The LORD said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. 14 Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their ancestors taught them.” 15 Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “See, I will make this people eat bitter food and drink poisoned water. 16 I will scatter them among nations that neither they nor their ancestors have known, and I will pursue them with the sword until I have made an end of them.”
WWJD,
You know what goes on in our homes???? You know what goes on in our hearts??? You sound like a peeping tom.
My Christian friends respect my faith. they are not afraid of me. How dare you say things like that?
you are narrow minded and small.
I am not angry…just incredulous! Why would I want to be like you?
You have NO clue…..zero! You do NOT know what goes on in our homes. You do NOT know what is in our hearts. You only have the word of people like Steph, who at the least was an inactive, uninformed Mormon or at the worst is an apostate with a black heart.
You see everything through your self-righteous looking glass.
You do NOT “love” Mormons. You love yourself and your pride is dictating your desire to “convert”. It is the “I am right and you are wrong, but i will tell you with love” attitude. It is very prevalent on this site.
If truth be told, I can see one of you a mile away. I laugh at your self righteous behavior. THAT behavior is the sign of a NON-Christian, not my Christian friends who respect my religion and my faith.
~Anne
Steph,
A prophet speaks for God. Our living Prophet, Thomas S. Monson is the mouthpiece for the Lord on this earth today.
You must have never been much of a Mormon or you would know this. To say that we listen to “man” is false.
God reveals his secrets to his servants the Prophets. When the Prophet speaks, he speaks for the Lord. Why would anyone question that? Many people DID question the prophets and it didn’t get them anywhere…some of them were under water because of it!
there is NO PLACE in the Bible that tells us that there will never be prophets on the earth again. Surprise! You are the one who is wrong, wrong, wrong on every count you tick off against the Church.
~Anne
WWJD,
YOU sharing the “truth” you have with your LDS friends is like a Kindergarten student teaching a person with a PhD, MD, a DDS all rolled into one!
YOU have NO clue what 98% of the Gospel is about. You have the crumbs from the old dispensation instead of the banquet from the RESTORATION.
But good luck anyhow! YOU WILL NEED IT!
~Anne
Matthew 12:33-34
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Whose heart is black? Whose words are venomous? Who is spewing insults? Whose blog is being attacked? Who invited you to come here and drag down those of us who are trying to do what God has asked of us in the great commision? There is no personal gain for us in this. How would you like it if we treated your missionaries this way? If you can’t take the heat maybe you should get out of the kitchen.
I dare you to ask your Christian friends to tell you what they really think about Mormonism!
BTW, it is the self-righteous who do not need the Gospel of Christ.
Maybe, you had better go have a talk with your bishop about your behavior. Not feeling the love Anne.
It seems things are getting a little out of hand. Let us tone it done.
JBR
The question was where does Paul (besides the supposed 1 Corinthians quote) use a false doctrine to teach a true one. To give examples outside of Paul’s writings is to avoid the actual question and your particular answer is only an attempt to slander us.
Using your false understanding of scripture you claim one of our doctrines to be false. It doesn’t matter. We teach both as being true, and thus we are not using a doctrine we know is false to teach one we believe is true. This is what is being claimed as Paul’s strategy, which is ridiculous. Show us one more place where Paul does this. If you can’t show us one other place where Paul does this than to say that he does it here is an unsupported assumption made simply to deny what you don’t want to believe in.
Isaiah 43: 10-11 “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.”
Christ is speaking of his unique role as the savior of Israel and the world. He is the one who was in their midst as they came out of Egypt, and he is the one who has fought their battles for them. He was their savior from Egypt and their savior from bondage later, just as he would be their savior from sin in the future. No one else did this, only him. As such, to rely on anyone else to do it was idolatry.
ECHO
You are misreading Alma 34: 34-35. Anne did address it, and very well. What one must understand is what is meant by the term “the wicked” and the term “Final State.”
The wicked are not those who die in ignorance, nor are they those who continually strive for righteousness, but still die having sinned. The wicked are those who know what is wrong and choose to do it anyway. The wicked are those who know the truth and still seek after that which is evil.
The Final State does not speak to the spirit world, but to the time after the final judgment, when we will all receive our final state.
So, what Amulek is saying here is that anyone who thinks they can be evil in this life and then repent in the next life, is very much mistaken, for the desire to be evil will still be with them. He is not talking about those who do not desire evil, but still do not have the truth.
ANNE
While I agree with most of what you say, I would still advise toning things down a bit. The discussion is turning to contention, and that is not what God would want.
WWJD
I am not going to answer your questions for two reasons.
The first is that you don’t want them answered. You have already decided that you will never accept anything that comes from the LDS church and will accept everything that is said against it. There is no point in answering them, except to give passing readers the truth. The problem with this is the number of questions you give. It is a tactic that is not meant to be answered, but to overwhelm and thus divert attention. If you were truly curious and wanted an answer you would have asked only a small number of questions, and thus allowed an actual response to each. As it is you are only trying to convince people through shear numbers, rather than actually argument.
The second reason I am not answering is because most of your questions are so absurd that you should know the answer already, and I would venture to guess that you do, but prefer to use them as a weapon against us rather and admit the truth to even yourself. For your own benefit I will give you an example.
You use the ever popular question concerning the “most correct book” comment, pared with some doctrine that is not in the Book of Mormon. The absurdity of this question is that the answer is so obvious to anyone who thinks about it. To be the most correct does not mean it contains all truth (which would be impossible) but that it has less errors in it that any other book. The amount of information is not what is being commented on by Joseph Smith, but the accuracy of the information. As such, for it to have various doctrines omitted is not a problem.
You get my point?
So, please do not come on a tirade against us and our faith unless you actually want to discuss it and are not just planning to throw as much out there as possible in the hopes of confusing everyone who is reading.
TO EVERYONE
Speaking of Baptism for the Dead, let us consider a few things.
First, the Practice of Baptism for the Dead originates in the Christian religion. There is no historical evidence to suggest that any group practice this before the advent of Christianity in the area. Even after Christian influence it seems that the only place that practiced it was in Iran and Iraq, not in Corinth. So, the argument that this was a pagan practice among the Corinthians is only supported by this single verse in Paul’s epistle, making it a verse unpersuasive argument.
Second, it is not spoke of as a response to pagan practices among the Corinthian saints. It is referenced because the Corinthian saints were denying the resurrection (not of Christ, but of all men). In his Epistle to the Corinthians Paul never references problems with pagan rituals, except the practice of eating meat sacrificed to false gods. This epistle is addressing disunity among the saints, not false practice. Thus, if this was a reference to a pagan practice, it is the only one in the epistle and would thus be out of place.
Second, It has been mentioned that he uses the third person “they” rather than the first person “you” when mentioning the practice. This is taken to mean that he did not approve of it. However, all this really means is that he was not, at that time, a participant in the practice, and likely the Corinthian saints weren’t either. This does not mean he disapproved. It is much like the president of the church speaking of missionaries in the third person. It does not mean that the president disapproves, only that he does not currently participate.
Fourth, it has also been mentioned that there are no other references to the practice in the Bible, and this has been held as proof that it was not practiced, because it would have been referenced more if it was. However, this reasoning only works if one accepts that the Bible contains all truth, a belief that cannot itself be supported by the Bible. So, to say that because we have no other record of it we know it to be a false practice is to assume that which the Bible does not actually support. We can also look at the many books and epistles that the Bible does reference as being scripture, but we do not have at this time; such as Paul’s true first epistle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9). We cannot know what wealth of information was had because we lack complete records of it. I, personally, believe that a full discussion on Baptism for the Dead is contained within this first Epistle that we no longer have. I cannot prove it, but nor can I be disproved with available texts.
So, what it all comes down to is this: Based solely on this verse the nature of the practice cannot be known, but based on historical records we can be fairly sure it is of Christian origin. As such to claim it as pagan is false. However, to claim anything beyond it being known is also not truly support by this verse. Believe what you will, but this verse neither proves nor disproves the doctrine on its own.
Now, I do think that other scriptures within the Bible show a definite support for the practice, but I am not really in the mood to argue the point.
Steph,
Oh, now you are judging my “fruit”? Interesting! Especially since you do not know me and YOU are not my judge!
I did not say you have a black heart…..that was the “range” of people that leave the Church. ( Were you kidnapped and forced to join the Church? Why did you join to begin with?)
My words are not venomous and I don’t mind the heat. I have already said that I am not easily offended.
I know what my Christian friends think about my Church. We have had the discussions before. We share a love of God and Jesus Christ and we value faith and prayer. Are you intimating that all Christians hate Mormons? That would be a sad state of affairs, now wouldn’t it?
And,exactly what behavior should I talk to my Bishop about?
you are not feeling the love? well, welcome to the world of the mormons on this blog! with the exceptions of some well wishes for my family members, which i very much appreciated, there is not much love going around for the LDS here, either.
You said, “BTW, it is the self-righteous who do not need the Gospel of Christ”.
Well, Sister Steph, that would be you! You had it, you left it. Forgive me if I don’t care to “see that light”.
I love the Gospel and I intend to keep my covenants and remain true to my testimony….apparently it wasn’t so important to you. But, to each his own!
~anne
Shem, I think you’re on to something here:
“So, please do not come on a tirade against us and our faith unless you actually want to discuss it and are not just planning to throw as much out there as possible in the hopes of confusing everyone who is reading.”
Wow, you really do think you have hijacked this blog!!!!!!
Isn’t that what YOU are doing here or am I missing something? Did I misunderstand the intention of this blog? AM I IN THE RIGHT PLACE? This is a TILM blog, not an LDS blog yes? Is it not the intention of this blog to help people get out of/stay away from Mormonism? Every LDS person on this site appears to me to be here to try and undo what Mark is trying to do. Why should WWJD not throw as much anti-Mormonism information out there as possible? You know darn well none of you who are the vocal LDS here has any intention of learning from what Mark is trying to do. I think WWJD knows this and is trying to reach those who are really interested in what we have to say.
1 John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
Don’t listen to false teachers, and don’t support them. Ignore them, and they will be forced to go away.
Matthew 10:14
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Obviously, there will come a time when we are no longer able to teach certain people. We must do everything we can to plant the seed, others may follow up with additional teaching, but in the final analysis, God will provide the increase.
The above scripture say a lot. There are some situations where it is obvious that we are wasting our time trying to teach certain people. Also, there are some people who are determined to not follow Christ, but who will continue in sin.
I just follow the rule that I will teach wherever and whenever I have opportunity and trust God to make the seed grow and mature.
WWJD & Sister Steph,
Have I just been invited to leave? I am honored. I am such a pain-in-the-neck that you don’t want me here anymore? That is great! I want to be an “annoy-er” to the Devil’s work and kingdom! This blog, with its mission to destroy faith, is NOT the work of the Lord. I know it and you will know someday, when the scales fall off your eyes.
I hope that anyone reading this blog, who is having a crisis of faith, will turn to the true source of peace, the Lord Jesus Christ. His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is upon the earth. He loves you and he will help you! After all, He has provided a Prophet to guide you, scriptures to teach you and the Priesthood to bless you. You cannot find these blessings any where else in the whole, wide world!
The Gospel is true! The Church is true! Thank heavens that 36 years ago I was brought out of the world and into His Kingdom.
~Anne
Anne, I have noticed a pattern here. Everytime God’s word is presented to you, you fly off the handle. What in the world is so offensive about God’s word? The Bible says:
Proverbs 9:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
If you are so sure of your salvation, why does Biblical scripture get you in such a dither?
What do you think God would have to say to you in response to your calling His work “the devil’s work”?
Mormons claim to include the Bible in their collection of scripture, yet you are calling the Great Commision devil’s work?
To contrast, I do not get angry when I see LDS teachings. You know, like the ones that put me in outer darkness. Don’t you think it’s strange that only “apostates” and murders are there? I’ve heard that Joseph Smith murdered some people. Do you think he’s in outer darkness? I just take LDS teachings for what they are: ODD. No need for anger, just sorrow for the LDS.
Sister Steph,
No pattern whatsoever. No dithers, either. And when did i “fly off the handle”? You are reading something into my posts that do not exist.
The TILM is NOT the Lords work. And if you aren’t working for the Lord….well, then you know who you ARE working for!
Also, Joseph Smith NEVER killed anyone. What a silly jab to make. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I would bet the farm that you left because of “issues” with obedience.
~anne
don’t bother feeling sorry for me. it is misplaced and unwanted.
STEPH
Since you felt like honoring me with actual scripture I will reply.
My understanding was that this blog was to facilitate civil and honest discussion in an attempt to lead people out of Mormonism. I have no problem with this, and am perfectly willing to let anyone here attempt this.
However, the tactics of throwing everything you can, knowing full well that time and space do not allow a full reply, is a deceptive tactic that is only used by those who cannot actually do what this blog is meant to do. I don’t care what the intention is, if the means are based in diversion and deception without any real substance (as WWJD’s posts, as well as yours have been) it is not a good thing and anyone engaging in such has made themselves a deceiver of men. You can praise yourself for everyone you draw away, but what praise is there if it is through deception and not truth and honor that you had to work.
Just remember that the Pathway to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Just know that if anyone wants to know the truth of LDS doctrine I am perfectly willing to discuss it in a civil and honest manner. If, after such a discussion, a person wishes to leave the church I will say nothing against them, as they have that right. But I will always be here to give the truth, and thus prevent you and anyone else from destracting from that truth with diversion and deception.
You are right that a false teacher will go away if ignored. I guess I must be a true teacher, for I am going nowhere.
Hello Shematwater,
On the topic of Baptisms for the dead:
The answer could be in the Greek key word “ὑπέρ” [for]. The difference between interpreting “ὑπέρ” to mean “for the benefit of” or “because of” can make a huge difference in understanding this text. What I mean is, if I told you, “Jesus died for our sins” I am saying Jesus died because of my sins, not for the benefit of my sins.
With that understanding, it becomes clear who Paul could be referring to. The Jews, who had elaborate cleansing rituals [baptisms] “because of” the dead.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=19&v=1&t=KJV#1
This also explains why the Christian practice of Baptisms for [the benefit of] the dead is alien to Church Fathers like Tertullian and why John Chrysostom ridicules the practice when he discusses the Gnostics interpretation of 1 Cor 15:29 and their practice of vicarious baptisms.
After reading the varied posts… it is obvious that the Jesus of Mormonism is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible.
A man becomes a God (Heavenly Father) in Mormonism
———-compared to ———-
God becomesa man in the Bible (the Son)
.
.
Mormonism is polytheistic (3 God’s + “g”ods to get their own planet or 1 “G”od [Heavenly Father] + “g”od Jesus + “g”od Holy Spirit + the many eventual Mormon “g”ods that get their own planet
———-compared to —————————————–
God in the Bible is Monothesitic and all other “g”od’s are false
.
.
Jesus is an example who offers a ladder for you to climb in Mormonism
———-compared to —————————————
Jesus is your subsitute who offers unconditional forgiveness and eternal life in the Bible.
.
.
Baptism in Mormonism is considered also a “proxy” action
—————– compared to —————————-
Baptism in the Bible is for the benefit only for the immediate recipient being baptized
Blessings?
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon505.htm
It still does not prove a meaning. It only gives another interpretation. I understand the interpretation, but that’s all it is.
I will state again, that based on this verse (whether using the Greek or not) it is not possible to prove the doctrine true or false.
In the Bible we are told that we will be like God (1 John 3: 2) and thus we will be gods.
In the Bible we learn that there is a Godhead (Acts 17: 29; Romans 1: 20; and Colossians 2: 9), indicating that there are gods under that head, as Paul testifies to when he tells us there are many gods (1 Corinthians 8: 5).
We also read in the writings of Paul that the Spirit, the Lord, and God are three different beings (Ephesians 4: 4-6) and are thus three different gods.
We read in the Bible that we will be judged for our works (2 Corinthians 11: 15; Revelation 20: 12-13) and not according to Christ’s. But we are told that Christ is our example that we should follow (John 13: 15; 1 Peter 2: 21).
In the Bible Christ also tells us that we must be born of water and the spirit or we cannot be saved (John 3: 5), and reiterated that baptism is essential for salvation (Mark 16: 16).
So, as we see, the true Lord and Savior of the world, as preached by the saints of all ages, is the same as is being preached by the saints of this day and age, and is the same as is recorded in the Bible.
Provide a meaning for what exactly?
No. This one sentence does not prove anything one way or another, but considering Paul does not include himself or the Corinthians [“they”], Paul nor any other New Testament writer ever elaborates on the practice, no one in the early Church heard of vicarious Baptism outside of the Gnostic cult’s practice of it, and the fact that the Christian Church historically has always confessed “one Baptism” (Ephesians 4:5), not two (one for the living and one for the dead), it is a pretty safe bet that this was never a Christian practice.
“Just know that if anyone wants to know the truth of LDS doctrine I am perfectly willing to discuss it in a civil and honest manner. If, after such a discussion, a person wishes to leave the church I will say nothing against them, as they have that right. But I will always be here to give the truth, and thus prevent you and anyone else from destracting from that truth with diversion and deception.”
Shem, You forget who you are talking to. I know what the LDS do to people who try to leave or do leave. I know how hard it is to leave. I know how hard it is to be treated like an outcast. Any LDS people out there looking at this site or others are doing so for a reason and they already know the LDS teachings you are presenting here. I am not fooled by what you are doing. You will not let go or give up control in any way. You come here and harass those who are looking by making sure that they know that Big Brother is still watching over them. Shame on you!
“However, the tactics of throwing everything you can, knowing full well that time and space do not allow a full reply, is a deceptive tactic that is only used by those who cannot actually do what this blog is meant to do.”
I am glad that you caught on to this. It was done to show you what you have been doing yourself as this is exactly how I have felt as I have been reading your posts here and in other discussions. Did you happen to notice that when individual questions were asked of Anne they were not answered?
Just let go! Just let the madness stop already! BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD!
God is in control!
As for you Anne, You have moxy that’s for sure! Your passionate responses kept me coming back again and again just to see what your reaction would be. I do need to thank you for something. Your reactions and character did convict me of a problem I thought I had taken care of a long time ago. You see, your behavior here is sooo typical of most LDS people that it really just ended up opening old wounds. Wounds inflicted by LDS people who were supposed to be family, people who were supposed to love me. I need to forgive the LDS and let God turn those wounds into scars.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, your prayers would be appreciated!
To end, I hope that everyone caught on to all of the Jeremiah references (It’s on my mind due to current Bible study). We can still learn from Jeremiah today because we are still doing a lot of the same stupid things!!
You see, the Old Testament is where God’s character is revealed to us. In it He shows us that sin is a serious problem. Sin can not be covered up. We can’t fool God! Judah tried to cover up her sins (tried to deceive God). She went through the motions of following the law, but she was following other ways as well (idolatry). God warned her through Jeremiah that they would be punished if they did not repent and come back to Him, but they did not. They were cozy in their lives. Things were good (peace, peace, peace). They did not take care of their sin problem. They did not listen to the warnings. Judah suffered God’s wrath. Why? Sin creates a barrier between us and God. How do we take care of our sin problem today? Faith in the Cross! Does this mean we can hide behind Grace? NO WAY!!! We still must be obedient to God!
As I study Jeremiah, I see Mormonism. Mormons do not take sin seriously. Why? The “people are basically good” view of things, the “pretty much everyone is going to one level of heaven” issue, and lets do all of this other “stuff”. All of that other “stuff” just keeps the LDS from really knowing God. We can not substitute the forgiveness of sins with other “stuff” like baptism for the dead. Idolatry is anything that presents itself in a way that goes against what God wants. An idol does not represent the character of God. The Bible says that greed is a form of idolatry.
How can the LDS say they accept the Bible? Mormonism has changed the God of the Bible into a god of flesh and bone who views people as “good”, lets LDS church members get sinners of the hook through baptism for the dead and has no concept of hell (peace, peace,peace). If that isn’t the most obvious form of idolatry, I don’t know what is!
It’s not to late! God will take you back. He is a merciful God. Repent and come back to Him!
I didn’t say provide a meaning, I said prove a meaning. You have not proven that your meaning is true.
I have already addressed the issue as to why Paul does not include himself or the Corinthians in the practice, as well as that of it not being elaborated on. Nothing you say invalidates my points, only gives counter points.
So, I stick to the conclusion that based on this we have no way of verifying its truth nor proving it false.
STEPH
I have not forgotten who I am talking to. You just seem to be ignoring who you are talking too.
I know many people who have left the church, and very few of them have ever expresses any difficulty in leaving, or any injury caused by the members, beyond the rather predictable sorrow such a choice would cause. I do not claim that no one has ever experienced what you describe, but I am familiar enough with how the church works, and with the less active and the ex-members to know that your portrayal is not typical. To pass it off as typical is just another deception you use to draw people away, and it is you who should be ashamed.
Now, I love the way you fall into the typical anti-mormon strategies of turnings things back on us. Your accusation of our deception is almost laughable, especially since you claim it is done in the same way as you and WWJD.
When have we ever simply given a list of questions as WWJD has done in this thread? When have we not addressed a question given in civil and honest discussion?
We haven’t, and for you to say we have is just another dishonest deception on your part, for you know perfectly well that most people are not going to back track through the records of this blog to verify the accusation.
I have never said anything that was intended to deceive, or that relied on deception to prove my point, and neither has Anne. And while I think Anne is not right in her tactics, she is much better than you have been, for she is honest in them, while you are deceitful.
The truth is that Christ is returning soon, and when he comes and the LDS are called, as his saints, to join him in his glory your arrogance and hatred of these just people will turned on its head and you will be forced to admit your error. I wonder how you will feel at that day?
I prefer educational over deceitful. Your LDS guilt trips don’t work on me.
Sister Steph,
I never intended to NOT answer a question. Let me have it, and I will answer it. (you never answered my question about why you joined the Church and why you left)
Just a side note: I find your (meaning the general Christian view) brand of Christianity very confusing. I don’t see how you come up with stuff. i.e…..this “man is not good” thing is just not Biblical! At least not to the extreme you all take it. We are loved by Heavenly Father….he sacrificed His Own Son for us!!
I joined the LDS Church because it was so plain! It follows the Bible perfectly. It felt so true and right.
I heard of a billboard that said, “don’t pray about the Book of Mormon…that is how the “get you”.” I have spoken to Christians who deny the power of personal revelation. If we can’t pray to Heavenly Father and REALLY get an answer, then what is the point? I even had my evangelical nephew tell me that we are NOT supposed to pray for answers, that all the answers we ever need are in the Bible. ummmmmmmm…..NO! Why would the Lord say, “ask and ye shall receive?” why would he ask us to pray? Why bother?
Anyway, I am happy for you if you think you found the “true light”. But, you have been supremely deceived and I want to go on record as one who told you so.
I have a hunch that you jumped into Mormonism full bore and then soured just as quickly. Am I right?
I honestly don’t think you know WHAT we believe. you could not have had a testimony or knowledge of the Church to throw it over so quickly. At least it would be better for you not to have denied the Holy Ghost’s witness .
Also, if someone quits being your “friend’ because you left the Church it is likely because it is very awkward to be around someone who denigrates one’s faith. I would stay as far away as possible because of the “apostate spirit” that people who leave with a big chip on their shoulder emanate. I am sure you are on their mind and in their prayers, but “ex-members” aren’t easy to be around. If NO ONE had tried to get you to reconsider your monumental decision to leave the Church, you would have cause to be concerned. That would mean the NO ONE DID CARE! IF they tried to get you to stay, that is a witness that they loved you!
sorry i opened old wounds!
~anne
Anne said: “I don’t see how you come up with stuff. i.e…..this “man is not good” thing is just not Biblical!”
It’s biblical Anne but you refuse to believe it.
Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”
Romans 3:12 “…there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Anne, the Bible clearly teaches that no one is good.
Who are people to believe? Jesus or a person such as yourself who through your uncivil treatment of others is so obviously “not good”?
ouch! thanks for judging me, it was exactly what i expected!
if you take that scriptural passage out of context and isolate it like you did, then someone might think it meant that. but, if you understand the entire Bible AND have a Prophet of God to help you, you would understand that it refers to “pre-repentance man”. (numerous Bible passages back that up)
you guys take it even FARTHER by saying that no man can DO good. that is also false.
we are made in the image of God. we have the potential to be heirs to ALL the Father has! We can repent and be perfected through Christ’s atonement!
your take on it is really quite depressing. I am glad that I have the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ and I know WHO I am!
~anne
I did not try to prove Paul’s intent; I was only trying to give a sensible possible explanation as we do not know exactly what Paul is talking about.
You say that nothing I have said invalidates you points. I will address them now then:
Your first point was that this was a Christian practice. Your reason being that historically no group practiced it before Christianity. I pointed out that there is also no historical proof that Christians practiced this “Baptism for the dead”. You can’t say Christians practiced it because there is no proof that others did it, when there is no proof that Christians did it either! You then cite the practice in Iraq and Iran which does not surprise me considering that Marcion, [the leader of the Gnostic cult specifically named by Chrysostom (Homily on First Corinthians, 40)] was from Pontus and the Marcionite heresy did spread eastward and lasted for centuries.
I can agree with your second point. I am not fully convinced either that Paul is discussing a pagan practice. This is why I think it is possible that he could be talking about the Jewish cleansing ritual.
Your third point is on Paul’s use of “they”. I think everyone has said their piece on this. So I will leave it be.
Fourth, you try to build an argument on non-existent texts and what you hope they might have contained.
I am not judging you Anne. God teaches us what sin is and in doing so, he has judged you already.
Did God ask you to tell me how “uncivil” I am? I am not “uncivil” , I am honest. I also believe in repentance….. unlike Sister Steph, who thinks LDS don’t understand repentance. I work on it regularly because i recognize the need to do it daily.
when you denigrate me and my religion that is your “right”, when I point out the fallacies of your religion, I am “uncivil”. Double standard, Echo!
~anne
Pointing out what you believe are fallacies of our religion is not uncivil. When you attack a person and take them down along side their beliefs by hurling insults or contentious remarks at the person who believes that teaching, that is when you are uncivil. Incivility is a sin.
I have seen no sign of your repentance. True repentance would seek to make amends for sins. How? A heartfelt apology to the people you have offended and sinned against.
Mark recently wrote a thread on this very topic to which you judged his motives! Now that’s the kind of judging the bible condemns. On that same thread, Christians apologized in case they had offended anyone. Not one single Mormon apologized.
Here is an example of a civil statement:
I believe your teaching of salvation through faith alone is false and here is why and here is what I believe. Check out these scriptures etc.
Here is an example of uncivil statements:
You don’t know what we believe, you are decieving people!!! You are twisting our beliefs!!!!. You are a peeping tom. What a silly jab to make. I would bet the farm that you left because of “issues” with obedience. wow, you dumped your whole load of venom in one post. Why would I want to be like you?
The civll statements promote growth, the uncivil statements promote contention. Anne, you are the Queen of contention. Sad but true. And that is what Mormonism has done to you.
Oh, actually I have always been this sweet! You have a one way mirror, Echo. How many times have you condemned me to hell? How many times have you called me “uncivil”. why don’t YOU just turn the other cheek instead of judging me? The PURPOSE of this WHOLE blog is to TEAR DOWN the Faith of Latter-day Saints.
THAT IS CONTENTIOUS!! Steph has been insulting about MY faith and MY beliefs, but she gets a pass because now she is “on your side”. How many times have YOU insulted Joseph Smith?
I have seen a pattern. When the “argument” starts going “our way”, then you guys start complaining about “civility”.
cowboy up and quit being offended!
~anne
I have decided to take Shem up on his offer to answer my questions:
If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?
Anne, Thank You for the apology. Would you please help me to understand how I insulted your faith? I thought I was making a point regarding the Biblical concept of the nature of sin. I am sorry if you thought I was insulting you. Were the points made regarding Joseph Smith insult or truth? Did Joseph Smith commit murder. The information I have found says that he did. Before, you answer please back up your answer with factual information, not just your opinion or what someone else has told you.
I think this is what Echo is trying to tell you:
http://lds.org/new-era/1974/05/what-is-true-repentance?lang=eng
Also, I am not going to reveal any more personal information regarding my involvment with Mormonism. I am going to say that you have made some incorrect assumptions. I know for a fact that plenty of Mormons leave after MANY years of being active in the church.
BTW, no one here has condemned anyone to hell. Why did you choose to take that personally? The point is that the Book of Mormon and the Bible both say that there is a hell and we all know that it is God’s job to decide who goes there.
Anne,
Our purpose isn’t to tear down the faith of the LDS. Our purpose is to save you from going to Hell. We believe Mormonism is led by False Prophets who themselves are leading you to Hell.
It’s only “contentious” to you because you have been ingrained by these False Prophets to believe that it is contentious. False Prophets don’t want to lose you, so they come up with ways to keep you from “Hearing” the truth. It’s clear they have done a fine job in closing your ears.
The arguments are never going your way Anne, don’t kid yourself. What is truly happening is that your mouth gets so out of control and contentious that you “think” you are winning. But you are not. Incivility does not mean you are winning an argument. When you have to resort to incivility, that means that you are the one losing the argument.
Cults use incivility as a tactic to beat folks into submission.
For my Brothers and Sisters in Christ:
http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/answering_challenges.htm
WWJD
I am happy to answer any question you have.
Alma 18: 26-28
This is the story of Ammon teaching King Lamoni. If you read this carefully you will see that Ammon is not actually teaching that God is a spirit. What he is doing is taking a belief that Lamoni already new and understood to help him understand the truth. He asks “do you believe in God?” Lamoni says “I do not know what that means?” Ammon then asks “Do you believe in the Great Spirit?” and in this he draws on familiar terms to help the king understand. To this the King replies yes, and then Ammon says “This is God.”
So what he is saying is that the king’s belief in the Great Spirit is very similar to the truth concerning God, and by starting at that vantage point he is then able to explain the full gospel to the King, which we are told he does.
Before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy, this is not the same thing that is being claimed as Paul’s tactics regarding 1 Corinthians 15: 29. In the case of Ammon and King Lamoni the king did not have the gospel as yet, and was thus unfamiliar with its doctrine. In the case of the Corinthians they had the gospel, preached by many people, including Paul and Apollos. They were familiar with the doctrine. To have a biblical comparison to you would need to read the story of Paul preaching on Mars Hill.
To conclude this I would also point out that the idea of the Great Spirit is a degenerate form of the doctrine of Christ, for at this time Christ was still a spirit, not having been born on the Earth. The Father was an exalted man, but Christ was not an exalted man until after he had performed the atonement and been resurrected.
John 4: 24
This verse has been mistranslated. Joseph Smith has given the original wording and intent of the verse.
“For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.”
So, the verse was not intended to teach that God was a spirit.
On your comment about Steph,
Among the many wrong things you have said to Steph, here is one example: You judged her as leaving the church for the wrong reasons when you said: “I would bet the farm that you left because of “issues” with obedience”
You base many of your comments on assumptions. And assumptions can be false. Your assumptions are false. The problem I have with assumptions is that your assumptions always make folks look bad. God want’s us to base what we say on facts, not assumptions. Can you understand why?
Did it ever even occur to you just once, that Steph may have actually left the LDS Church for Good and Godly reasons? Perhaps she left because the LDS Church truly is a false Church. Obviously you have not thought of this. Instead you choose to make her look bad.
How can you avoid making false assumptions about people ( that in your case always make them look bad), in the future? You could ask Steph….Steph, why did you leave the church?
If she says she left because she had issues with obedience, then that is now the “fact” of why she left. But if she gives a different reason for leaving, then that reason is the “fact” of why she left.
Do you understand the seriousness of what you are doing when you make false assumptions?
You are sinning against the commandment of “do not give false testimony against your neighbor”
Shematwater,
“John 4: 24
This verse has been mistranslated. Joseph Smith has given the original wording and intent of the verse.
“For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.” So, the verse was not intended to teach that God was a spirit.”
“Promised” is found no where in the Greek verse. It cannot be properly called a translation.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=4&v=1&t=KJV#conc/24
It can be properly called a translation. A translation is simply the taking of one thing and transforming it into another state. This is why it is known as translation when a person is taken off this Earth without tasting death, such as Elijah was. It has also been used to refer to a priest being translated from on parish to another.
At dictionary.com the second definition under the term translate is “to change the form, condition, nature, etc., of.
Joseph Smith did not translate the Greek text into English. He translated a corrupt English text into a pure English text. He still translated it, because he changed it from one state to another.
ANNE
While I agree that insults have been thrown out, and that you are generally not all that bad, you have become uncivil. I understand the urge, and you have said many things I wanted to say, but refrained from doing so. Your analysis of Steph, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, was not right and has done more harm than good.
ECHO
There are so many things I want to say to you right now, but very few of them are civil. Your hypocrisy and arrogance has grown beyond simple annoyance and elicited in me feelings of anger that I rarely feel, and truly don’t like. So, I will asked you very politely to stop with the idiocy of claiming that we are the only ones who attack the person and not the doctrine. You have attacked me and every other LDS person on these threads with your continual condescension in decrying or sins as an evasion to any real discussion. Your pathetic attempt to pass it off as “God has judged you” only shows the desperation you are in.
You don’t want us to make personal comments, that’s fine; but please, for once on these threads, act on your own request and cease your own personal attacks against us.
STEPH
Let us examine your comments for insults.
In the very first one you say “Mormons worship their own god, the LDS church, and Joseph Smith.” This is an insult to our sensibilities for the simple fact that it is a false statement. I find it very insulting when someone insinuates that I or my family engage in idol worship, as I am sure you would.
Then, on October 8, 2011, at 3:59 pm, you state “I do not speak to you in terms of scripture because you do not understand scripture,” and thus insult our intelligence and ability to comprehend the Bible, giving no thought that we may have actually read it once or twice and do understand it.
Then on October 11, 2011 at 7:23 you insult me specifically. You say “I am not fooled by what you are doing. You will not let go or give up control in any way.” In this way you call me a liar, a deceiver, and dictator, all of which i find very insulting.
In the same post you insult me again with in saying “You come here and harass those who are looking by making sure that they know that Big Brother is still watching over them.” I have never harassed anyone on these threads and my intention has never been one of control. Thus you again insult me with an attack on my integrity.
Again in that same post you accuse us of deception. After I pointed out the deceptive tactic of WWJD you tell me “It was done to show you what you have been doing yourself.”
Later, that same day but at 8:13, you again insult us claiming false doctrine as ours. You said that we believe in a God that “lets LDS church members get sinners of the hook through baptism for the dead and has no concept of hell (peace, peace,peace).” We believe in a Hell; three different Hells in fact, and so to say we have no such concept is false. Also, the doctrine of the Baptism for the Dead does not let anyone off the hook, as much as some misguided people want to think it does. Of course you have to continue with this insult in saying that “If that isn’t the most obvious form of idolatry” based on a pack of lies, and thus accusing us falsely. Again, rather insulting.
Then, after all the false accusations, the lying in regards to our doctrine, and the personal attacks, you try to act innocent and claim that you didn’t realize any of this would be insulting. You actually bring up the insult of falsely accusing Joseph Smith of murder, using only your word that you read it somewhere as proof.
Of course, these are just examples. If I went back and did a more thorough reading of all your posts I am sure I would find a few more, as the arrogance and condescension with which you speak makes such almost inevitable.
Shem,
How about I suggest a solution? Here it is…
From now on when someone personally attacks someone. (LDS and Christian alike) Let’s copy/paste that comment and write beside it: “This is a personal attack, please keep personal attacks out of the discussions”
Remember, doctrinal discussions and disagreements are okay. Personal attacks are not okay.
We must distinguish between a personal attack and that of making the Bible personal as in the effects it has on each of us individually. One is not okay to do, the other is okay to do.
Do you understand the difference?
Shem, no personal assumptions either. Facts only. Both sides Christian and Mormon.
Doctrinal assumptions are okay because it helps both of us to understand where the other one is at in their understanding on one another’s doctrine.
If we come across a personal assumption not based on fact we copy/paste it and write: “no personal assumptions in the discussion please”
Shem, Seriously? How is the revelation of Biblical Truth considered to be a personal attack? Never mind, don’t bother answering. It is the typical LDS response. You make the choice to be offended by Biblical truth. Are you saying that you have no concept of the differences between Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity? I think you know exactly what I meant. If not, you need to get that cleared up so that we can get on the same page. How many LDS people here do NOT have an understanding of what the core concepts of Orthodox Christianity are? And if you don’t, how in the world did you make a logical decision involving your souls? Never mind, I know, your bossoms were burning. As far as idolotry goes, a sin is a sin is a sin. The Bible says greed=idolatry. Anything that you make more important than God becomes idolatry and ALL people do it to some extent or another. God comes first. I do not get up and proclaim to the world that I know the church is true. I do not put the church before God. I know God’s heiarchy: God, Christ, Christ’s Church. God gets all of my glory! Not the Church which equals the body of all believers as in those of us who believe in grace through faith, no works added.
OK, so in “Do you believe in the Great Spirit?”
Spirit does NOT mean “spirit”.
AND
“Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?”
They does NOT mean “they”.
Is everybody clear on that? Thanks a bunch Shem!
Shematwater,
Yes sir, the word can mean to change the form or condition, nature… the problem is, that is exactly what Joseph Smith did. However, when you are talking about language, as we are in this case, the proper understanding is that you are preserving the original intent or sense of the mother language. Nothing in the English or Greek Bibles gives any hint that the word “promised” is missing or implied that it should be there.
May I ask, for what reasons do you call the KJV Bible corrupt?
I am so confused, does no personal assumptions mean no personal assumptions or does it NOT mean no personal assumptions?
Maybe a disclaimer would be better:
Warning: Orthodox Christian and Biblical Truths will be discussed here. It is very likely that you may find these truths to be offensive. We accept no personal responsibility for anything that you are personally offended by.
ATONEMENT–SALVATION BY GRACE:
LDS–Universal resurrection, also known as salvation by grace, brought about by Christ’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and death on the Cross. Beyond resurrection, man must earn his own place in heaven.
BIBLE–Refers to God’s act of dealing with the primary human problem of sin, which has broken the relationship between God and humankind. God accomplished the way of restoration through Christ’s sacrificial death on the Cross. Salvation is not universal, but based on each individual’s relationship with Jesus, being given as a free gift of grace to those who trust in Christ alone (Romans 1:16: Hebrews 9:28: Ephesians 2:8-9).
Next Question for Mormons:
Has Jesus Christ done everything possible so that you can be with Heavenly Father forever in heaven?
IMHO …. we all need to step back and take a breather.
Those of us who agree that the Bible is the only source for the truth should just respond “Yes be yes, no be no” when Mormons present things that are from outside what Jesus revealed that is recorded in the Bible.
“Yes” .. because Jesus revealed _________ which is in the Bible
—or ——
“No” …. because this is what Jesus revealed _______ which in the Bible.
( this disclaimer stuff is getting silly and keeping a record of the wrongs is ….well just wrong )
FYI………… I am including myself in this
ECHO
I am all for it, but I have say that I am a little absent minded and may forget to copy and paste, at least for a little while. Bare with me though.
STEPH
Your disclaimer is deceptive, but it assumes that nothing we believe is supported in the Bible. I have no problem with you claiming Orthodox Christianity, but the muzzling of the Bible as exclusively yours to interpret is taking it a bit far; something that I have frequently commented on.
As to your question, I believe Christ did everything that was possible for Him to do and still complete the perfect plan of Salvation, and he did this so that we can be with Heavenly Father forever in heaven. But just because he did all that he can do does not mean that we are not required to do all we can do.
As to the scriptures sited,
Romans 1: 16 speaks to a power of salvation given to those who believe. What does this mean? It means that only those who believe are offered the power by which salvation comes, which power is Baptism (Mark 16: 16) as performed by one lawfully authorized to act in the name of God on Earth (Heb 5: 4). Those who do not believe are not offered this great power, as is evidenced when John the Baptist told the Pharisees to “bring forth fruits meet for repentance.” (Matt 3: 8)
Hebrews 9: 28 does not speak to salvation through grace, or any other kind of salvation. It simply states that Christ, who has died for the sins of many, will be sinless when he appear the second time to the faithful (speaking of the second coming), and he will bring salvation with him. It does not say who will be saved, or why. Only that he brings salvation with him when he comes again.
Ephesians 2: 8-9 is an ever popular scripture for those who seek to teach salvation by grace alone. Of course, this passage does not negate the need for our own works, and even in verse 10 we are told there are good works that we must walk in, or do. What this passage does do is re-emphasize the fact that without Christ and his grace no amount of good works could save us, and so it is by his grace that we are saved, for it is only in and through his grace that it is made possible for us to work out our salvation (Philippians 2: 12).
Steph, what I mean by personal assumptions is assuming something negative about a person as an individual. For example Anne assumed you left the LDS Church because you had issues with obedience. She assumed you were a peeping Tom etc. These are personal assumptions about people that are not based on facts but feelings. If you would have told her that you left the LDS Church because you has issues with obedience (which I know isn’t true) then it would be a “fact” and no longer an assumption.
Doctrinal assumptions are fine.
jbr, Thanks for the great suggestions but they have been made numerous times in the past and havn’t worked for either side. We aren’t keeping records of wrongs, eveyone messes up from time to time. Think of it like this…we are agreeing to help one another learn how to stay focused on doctrinal discussions only. It creates a much more friendlier discussion and keeps the peace between us all. :)
Perfect Shem, let’s give it a whirl. We can help one another learn to stay focused on doctrinal discussions.
Shem, the disclaimer came from my impression that the LDS here seem to be offended by Biblical scripture a lot. I think you read too much into it. I wish there were a sarcasm font.
“Romans 1: 16 speaks to a power of salvation given to those who believe. What does this mean? It means that only those who believe are offered the power by which salvation comes”
Yes, that is what it means. All we need to do is believe.
Did you read all of Hebrews 9 which refers to old testament blood atonement for sins? Do you understand this OT concept? Hebrews 9:28- so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear…………. Hebrews 10:10- And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ONCE for ALL!!!! Christ’s atonement of our sins was done once for all of us.
Shem, we are all holy. Do you see it? Jesus did it ALL. ALL we have to do is believe it! That is grace because there is nothing we can do to make ourselves holy in the eyes of God. Jesus came and did it for us.
Yes, there are good works that must be done. Why? Because that is how we show our God that we love him, by keeping His commands, by being obedient, but that is not what saves us. He is the one who enables us to do this.
Work out your own salvation is a exhortation to the Church at Philippi to labour in obedience in the word of God (the Bible). The Greek word translated work is [katergazomai] meaning work to the fullest or to completion. Such work as this can only be brought about in Christ.
Here Paul is very plainly telling them that the work in them is not of them, but it is of God Himself. Not only to do (move us to work) but also to will (not free will, God’s will) in us. How does this happen? When we give our lives to Christ, we are saved by grace through faith, and the Holy Spirit now dwells in our hearts. God takes up residence in our hearts!
They are to read the scriptures and continue to obey them in the fear of God. Fear and trembling is not just incidental language. You see the difference between the Saved and the unsaved is that the unsaved have no real fear of God. Therefore they won’t listen to God’s Word nor obey what is written in His Holy canon. You can quote them God’s Word “Word for word” and they’ll retort that “that was just your interpretation” as if you were quoting your own words. The reason is, their conscience is seared and they have not the fear and trembling that true believers do. All throughout scripture when you read of God’s manifestation to His Prophets of Old, all shook with fear and trembling before God. They all had that reverential fear of God.
Matthew 5:48 – Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
My next question for Mormons: regarding this verse, are you perfect right now?
Steph said, “Has Jesus Christ done everything possible so that you can be with Heavenly Father forever in heaven?”
That is the “million dollar question” and the answer is a resounding yes!
Folks, there is nothing to do to top or add to what Jesus did for us by dying in our place, sinners who cannot ever save themselves, and by His rising again from the dead on the third day.
Again, saved means we are assured to be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when we die and it doesn’t just mean we will live in the after life to maybe, some time in the future, get to be with them if we are worthy enough.
Jesus Christ is worthy enough and that is the bottom line.
Sister Steph,
IF all you need to do is believe, then what about the millions who did not get the chance to hear about Jesus in mortality?
Does God pre-pick winners and losers? (place them in the time and place where they can or cannot hear about Jesus)
i.e. my neighbor has a mentally retarded son who is infant-like in his capabilities. How can he be saved?
~anne
Because Scripture does not specifically address this issue, we cannot make an absolute statement concerning it. However, since the Bible does state that salvation is only through Jesus and that a person must receive Christ, then logically we conclude that those who have not heard the gospel are lost. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel to everyone. This does not mean He wants us to fill in the blanks to help us feel better about it either.
Why is it this way? I don’t know God’s big plan so I can’t say. I am certain He has His reasons and I trust Him.
Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.
The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
Has your neighbor’s son sinned? Sin is the only thing that keeps us from heaven. God will be the perfect judge.
The main thing to consider here, is to not let what has happened to those who have gone before us get in the way of what is going to happen to us.
The question is, will YOU answer God’s call?
In addition, I have seen people reject this gospel message for years at a time before finally accepting it. All I can say is God’s timing is always perfect.
And one more thing Anne, For what it’s worth, now that I am a believer, looking back on how things have progressed in my life, I am certain that God was there guiding me the whole way. He’s always had His hand on me, even before I knew Him.
Anne asks, “…what about the millions who did not get the chance to hear about Jesus in mortality?”
But doesn’t this question presuppose “they never had the chance”?
For scripture tells us:
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being.” Acts 17:26-28
“…God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him… ”
I doubt the problem lies in their never having gotten the chance to hear about Jesus. Rather, the problem lies with their never having responded to the invitation extended by their Creator, to “seek him,” to “reach out for him,” and to “find him.” They simply ignored the clear evidence of his existence:
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Romans 1:20
Their excuse, “I never got the chance to hear about Jesus … ” ain’t gonna cut it, because they simply didn’t open their eyes.
And, ” … infant-like capabilities … ? ” Well, those “infant-like capabilities” of believing were commended by Jesus, over the “scholarly unbelief” of the Pharasees.
“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…” Mark 9:42
“You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5:39-40
But unbelief’s favorite question is always, “What about … ?” forever searching for ways to bolster itself.
STEPH
I have read Hebrews 9 as well as chapter 10, and understand them very well. Yes, he sacrificed once for all; meaning that his sacrifice was made only once, and for the benefit of all mankind. It does not say that his sacrifice did everything necessary for us to be saved, nor does it say that such salvation is freely given. It also makes no reference to faith.
Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, a sacrifice that occurred only once, that all men have the opportunity to take advantage of. But it is up to each individual to do what is required to take such advantage. Paul tells us how in Hebrews 10: 22-24 “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and OUR BODIES WASHED WITH PURE WATER.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
And let us consider one another to provoke unto LOVE AND TO GOOD WORKS:”
(capitals are emphasis not shouting)
In other words, to take advantage of the saving powers of his Atonement we must believe with a true heart, be baptized (washed in water), hold fast to the gospel, and do that which is good.
“Such work as this can only be brought about in Christ.”
These are the phrases that I refer to when I say it is your interpretation. Actually, I agree with the wording you use, but most likely not the understanding you meant.
Even using your Greek meaning it changes nothing, and actually makes my point even stronger. So Paul is saying that it is on us to work out our salvation to its fullest state. This is exactly what we teach; that salvation will come in part to (almost) all, but that it is up to us to work in order to achieve full salvation. Without Christ we could not even attain a partial salvation, but through his assistance we can do what is needed to achieve complete and total salvation, but such depends on us, for it is not Christ who is working out our salvation, but us who must do it.
You said “Yes, there are good works that must be done. Why? Because that is how we show our God that we love him”
Question: What happens to a person who truly believes but does not love God, and thus is not obedient?
“You see the difference between the Saved and the unsaved is that the unsaved have no real fear of God. Therefore they won’t listen to God’s Word nor obey what is written in His Holy canon. You can quote them God’s Word “Word for word” and they’ll retort that “that was just your interpretation” as if you were quoting your own words.”
This is a personal attack, please keep personal attacks out of the discussions.
(If you want to know why, please ask.)
You other question: “Regarding Matthew 5:48, are you perfect right now?”
No, but then this verse is not commanding perfection at this exact moment. What it is commanding is perfection at the end of everything. In other words, we much strive for perfection, so that when Christ returns and we stand at the final judgment we are worthy to be made truly perfect in Christ.
Now, many say that because the word “be” is used the verse has to be talking about the exact present moment. This is not true, and does not take into account the various uses of the word. After all, when my son goes to a school party or dance I tell him as he leaves to “be good” or to “be on your best behavior.” Do these phrases imply this very moment? No. They imply a willingness to strive for the desired behavior while at the given activity. Thus, for Christ to say “Be ye therefore perfect” is not to imply this very moment, but a willingness to strive for the desired perfect while in this life.
It is also very interesting that Christ does not claim perfection for himself in this verse, but only for the Father. This would indicate that the perfection he is talking about has not yet been attained by himself. Why would he demand of us what he does not claim for himself?
Shem, from where I’m sitting, it seems as though you are not putting all of the pieces of the puzzle together. Also, I was only making a statement, not attacking you.
I disagree. Mathew 5:48 is written in the present tense.
Are you saying that you do not understand that Christ was perfect from begining to end?
Because Christ was perfect, and lived a sinless life, we as believers, are made perfect in Him. We however, can never be perfect. That is why Christ was sent in the first place. The point is: if we could achieve perfection in any way on our own, what would we need Jesus for in the first place? If I can achieve perfection. I don’t need Jesus and He died for nothing.
Shem said, “It is also very interesting that Christ does not claim perfection for himself in this verse, but only for the Father. This would indicate that the perfection he is talking about has not yet been attained by himself. Why would he demand of us what he does not claim for himself?”
But isn’t this clearly the classic “argument from silence”?
For example: If I never happened to mention to you that I own a car, then by your line of reasoning, that would have to mean that I don’t own a car.
Or, if I told you that Mark is a Lutheran, but said nothing of myself, then by your line of reasoning, that would have to mean that I am not a Lutheran.
(And, oh, by the way, I’m Lutheran, and I own a car)
My Heavenly Father does not pick winners and losers. “Oh, sorry you were sent to earth to live in Iraq and were raised Muslim! that is NO EXCUSE!!!, you are lost!”
Nope, that is not true. that makes NO sense whatsoever! It is heresy! YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
oh, was that an assumption?
so glad I know the truth. and the truth WILL prevail! even as hard as you all work against the Lord and His Kingdom! sure wish I could see the look on your face when you cross the veil! THAT will be good!
~anne
Shem said: ““Steph said: “You see the difference between the Saved and the unsaved is that the unsaved have no real fear of God. Therefore they won’t listen to God’s Word nor obey what is written in His Holy canon. You can quote them God’s Word “Word for word” and they’ll retort that “that was just your interpretation” as if you were quoting your own words.”
This is a personal attack, please keep personal attacks out of the discussions.(If you want to know why, please ask.) “”
Why is this a personal attack? Steph is talking about unbelievers, she is not talking about you. She didn’t say you are doing this.
She makes an excellent point on the topic of “interpretation” and what constitutes proper and improper interpretation.
Anne said: “My Heavenly Father does not pick winners and losers. “Oh, sorry you were sent to earth to live in Iraq and were raised Muslim! that is NO EXCUSE!!!, you are lost!”God can be found everywhere on earth.
God can be found everywhere on earth. As I said, the problem lies with their never having responded to the invitation extended by their Creator, to “seek him,” to “reach out for him,” and to “find him.” They simply ignored the clear evidence of his existence. This evidence of his existence can be seen clearly from what has been made:
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Romans 1:20
And what God has made is clearly seen throughout the entire world.
Anne said: “Nope, that is not true. that makes NO sense whatsoever! It is heresy! YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!”
No personal assumptions in the discussion please.
Anne said: “even as hard as you all work against the Lord and His Kingdom!”
No personal assumptions in the discussion please.
Anne said: “sure wish I could see the look on your face when you cross the veil! THAT will be good!”
No personal assumptions in the discussion please.
The only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Just because someone believes in Allah doesn’t mean he understands, accepts and believes in Jesus Christ. I repeat: MY Heavenly Father DOES NOT PICK WINNERS AND LOSERS! But, apparently yours does.
I have also come to the conclusion that, with one exception (Shem) I don’t like or respect any one posting on this blog. :) so, I asked myself “why am I spending ANY time with people I do not like or respect?”
so, the inevitable conclusion was: I am going to be leaving! Of course without me stirring the pot, there will be less contention, fewer posts and not as much “moxy”. :) But, I think you will all survive and I doubt if anyone will miss me!
I deplore the whole purpose of this blog. I have the least respect of ALL for Mark Cares and his evil ministry. My motives for posting here were to try to run interference as much as possible. But, I am turning that over to Shem and the Lord.
Steph has been sorely and miserably misled. Her poor son will pay the biggest price.(poor kid, believing in Santa is the LEAST of his worries) The rest of you will someday come to find out the damage you have done and the disrespect you have heaped upon your Lord and Savior. But, I believe in repentance so I don’t believe YOU are LOST.
Good Luck, Shem. Your patience is an inspiration to me.
ba’bye,
~anne
Anne said: “My motives for posting here were to try to run interference as much as possible”
Truth never needs to “run interference.” It simply speaks.
Who do Mormons worship? A god who was a man first so that isn’t the true
God.
God couldn’t have been a man first as man did not exist until God created him on the sixth day of creation out of the dust of the earth.
Mormons add to the Biblical account of creation by saying in their Book of Moses that there was a spritual creation before the physical creation of everything so man existed in spritual form before God created him in physical form.
But that still doesn’t explain how God could have been a man first on some other planet who progressed to become God as what was He, a spritual but not physical man on some spritual but not physical planet? As, after all, don’t Mormons agree that the physical creation occured when God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1?
Because like men; How could the sun, the moon, the stars, and also the planets have physically existed, even in the Mormon version of creation, before God created the heavens and the earth?
Another Irony is that the Book of Mormon says in several places that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever so at least on this one point the so called most correct book there is, is correct, God has always been God and he couldn’t have been a man first.
The fact is, the Bible doesn’t state there was a spiritual creation first anyway so they added to the Bible to show that there were pre-existing spirits and this isn’t the only major addition because in their JST version Joseph Smith added on to Genesis a prophesy predicting his own coming as a prophet.
I personally can’t buy into Mormonism because, for among other reasons, they say I need Joseph Smith’s permission to be with Heavenly Father when I die.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”
I will take this any day over the Mormon version that would sound like the following if I need Joseph Smith’s permission to be with Heavenly Father:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me and with Joseph Smith’s permission
The Mormon version just doesn’t sound right.
But I am not talking about language, and neither was Joseph Smith. He was not taking the Greek or Hebrew and that was currently had and translating it into English. He was taking the English and translating it back to the original intent of the original writers. Basically he was taking what was in the minds of the ancient prophets and translating it into the English of his day, using the current KJV as a guide.
As to corruption in the text, we know it is because a prophet of God has declared it to be so. I need no other proof. The question was concerning LDS doctrine and why we teach God is physical when this verse exists. To answer this question all I need to do is explain LDS doctrine, which includes the exceptence that the Bible as it exists today is not perfectly translated and preserved from its original meaning. We know what was parts were not properly preserved because we have the translation of it by Joseph Smith, and this verse is included in the corrections he made, as I have quoted.
You may not like this, but this is the answer to the question. If you want more concrete evidence to corruption you can always look at a few of the contradictions that do exist in the Bible; like when Amos says that God does evil, or the many places where it is said that God is physical in camparison to this single verse saying he is a spirit. The confusion caused by the Bible, as evidenced in the plurality of interpretations that have been given to it, is reason enough for me to accept that something is not quite right with its current state.
I never claimed we could achieve perfection on our own, and neither does the doctrine of the LDS church. This is just another false concept that is frequently spread about us.
So the choice is, believe what the true master, the living God, and the only way to heaven, Jesus Christ said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
OR
Believe what a Mormon leader said who added to and contradicted the word of God by saying Jesus Christ is not the only way to enter Heavenly Father’s presence.
Brigham Young said on October 9, 1859 (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91)
“Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”
I think the problem with being critical of Mormon beliefs is that Mormons hold them in reverence and we don’t show those beliefs the respect they think is due so they might take it as an attack on them personally and while I don’t ever want to attack anyone personally, I can’t show respect to falsehood and frankly, needing Mr. Smtih’s permission to enter the presence of Heavenly Father is a falsehood.
ECHO
Let us consider a few things.
I am the only one who has argued the difference between interpretation and quotation.
I am the only one who has attempted to separate a persons personal interpretation from the actual words of the Bible.
Then Steph states quite clearly that anyone who does this this has not been saved.
Steph directed this comment to me.
And, of course, if you have not been saved you are condemned to Hell.
The obvious conclusion is that this comment, though said in a general third person way, was intented for me, to tell me that my attempts to separate personal interpretation from actual quotation is a sign that I am not saved, and thus going to Hell.
So, yes, this is a personal attack, cleverly concealed in a general statement, but speaking to thinks that could only really apply to me on this thread.
Also, Steph’s point on Interpretation is not a good point. What she is basically saying is that anyone who doesn’t agree with her obviously is wrong, and by doing so is shutting down any form of actual descussion.
Now, speaking of your evidence of nature, I would love to know how watching the changing of the seasons and the vast majesty of the universe teaches a person about a man who lived in a very small part of the world for 33 years, teaching to a very select group of people? Show me how nature actually teaches about the resurrection and atonement for sins?
It is all well and good to quote the Bible and say “everyone should know because of nature” but unless you can actually show this your understanding of that verse is not supported by anything other than your word.
Now, I agree that all nature testifies to the existance of a God, but it does not teach of his nature, or his purpose. It is by watching the mysteries of nature that man invented most of the myths that exist. All nature truly does is tell us there is a God. If it told us anything else there would be no need for missionaries and the Great Commission would be pointless.
“Also, Steph’s point on Interpretation is not a good point. What she is basically saying is that anyone who doesn’t agree with her obviously is wrong, and by doing so is shutting down any form of actual descussion.”
What Steph is saying is that anyone who doesn’t agree with God is wrong as we believe the Bible is God’s word, it is “God breathed” meaning it came from His words not mans.
Shem, rest assured that I will not hesitate to name you specifically if I wish to address you specifically.
“My Heavenly Father does not pick winners and losers. “Oh, sorry you were sent to earth to live in Iraq and were raised Muslim! that is NO EXCUSE!!!, you are lost!”
Heavenly Father picked Noah, Joseph, David, Pharoah, Mary, and the list could go on and on and on….
Romans 9:17
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Why are muslims without a Biblical God? They made their choice. Adam and Noah knew God, but some of their offspring chose to sin and be separated from God. People have been moving away from God since the begining of time. It is still the same today, a parents choice can have eternal consequences on their children fair or not.
BTW, my son came to Christ on his own. He was not just baptised at the age of 8 like is the standard in LDS families because it was expected of him or because it was the in thing to do.
Your savior did not command for you to like or respect us. He commanded you to love us!
“I never claimed we could achieve perfection on our own, and neither does the doctrine of the LDS church. This is just another false concept that is frequently spread about us.”
Do explain. Who helps you achieve perfection and how?
“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Note that it says they are saved by grace after all they can do. This confirms the Mormon teaching of working very hard to be good, to do good works, and to attain to the highest level of exaltation.
The inclination to be perfect in Mormonism is repeatedly taught to its members. This perfection is not merely trying, it means to triumph over sin:
Spencer W. Kimball 1 said: “Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.”2
As you can see, the Mormon is taught that he must triumph over sin, that he is saved by grace after all he can do, and that he must be perfect. In fact, many Mormons have told me that the gospel is the Law and Ordinances of the Mormon Church, further verifying that forgiveness of sins in the LDS church is dependent upon the persistent and necessary effort of the Mormon to keep the Laws of God.
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all,” (James 2:10).
“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them, (Gal. 3:10).
Mathew 5:48 The verse says to be perfect in the present tense, not the future. The saved are perfect in the righteousness of Jesus right now.
Anne said: “My Heavenly Father does not pick winners and losers.”
Your Heavenly Father only picks winners…
Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith said that it is not likely that even half of all Mormons will be saved in the celestial kingdom! He wrote, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there. President Francis M. Lyman many times has declared, and he had reason to declare, I believe, that if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well. Not that the Lord is partial, not that he will draw the line as some will say, to keep people out. He would have every one of us go in if we would; but there are laws and ordinances that we must keep; if we do not observe the law we cannot enter” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).
Our Heavenly Father picks sinners….
Mark 2:17 “Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Shem said: “Now, speaking of your evidence of nature, I would love to know how watching the changing of the seasons and the vast majesty of the universe teaches a person about a man who lived in a very small part of the world for 33 years, teaching to a very select group of people? Show me how nature actually teaches about the resurrection and atonement for sins?”
The answer was in my original post on this matter. But here is another verse from scriptures…
Jeremiah 29:13 ” You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the LORD”
The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.
Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.
If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?
ECHO
This is not an answer. Jeremiah is speaking to the Jews who have been carried captive into Babylon, telling them that after 70 years of captivity they will seek the Lord and find him. It makes no mention of natural evidence, or to those who have no knowledge of Christ finding him in nature. It is a completely unrelated verse to the topic at hand.
Even if it was related it still would not answer the question. I was not asking for more scripture, but for the actual natural evidence that you say leaves men without excuse. If you are to interpret Paul in the way you have suggested you should be able to show, from nature and not scripture, the truths of God. Can you do it? If you can than fine. But if you cannot than you have no real support for your interpretation, as you cannot support the claim that it makes.
Speaking of Romans 1: 20, if we read verse 21 we understand that he is talking about people who have a knowledge of God, and thus understand his power and Godhead. It is not talking about those who never had this understanding.
“Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Men who know the gospel have no excuse, even though they will try to rationalize various things in their minds to say there is no God, as the evidence of creation is before them.
Even in verse 20 it tells us that these things are “Clearly understood by the things that are made,” showing us that he is talking about those who have understanding and yet reject it.
STEPH
Speaking of perfection, you have no real understanding of the LDS doctrine if you actually believe what you have said. Nothing you quote means that we can do this on own, and your attempt to portay it as such is false.
Matthew 9: 26 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
Luke 18: 27 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
Mark 10: 27 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
Without Christ’s atonement perfection is an unattainable goal. But, because we know that with God all things are possible, we know that because of the atonement it has been made attainable. Not by ourselves, but with the continual assistance from God; with his spirit there to guide us, to strengthen our will and enlighten our mind, to bear our burdens for us as he has promised, then, and only then, can we do what is needed to overcome sin, to rise victorious over satan and his angels, and attain to the perfection that God has commanded us to be. It is not through our power, but through the grace of God that we are given the power. As it says, “with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
As to your argument concerning the preaching of the Gospel and the Great commission, I agree with you. If everyone who doesn’t know is automatically saved then preaching the gospel becomes an injustice and should be avoided. In this way the justice of God is destroyed.
However, if those who do not hear are automatically comdemned than there was no mercy shown to billions who lived without the knowledge during the last 2000 years, and even more when we consider the entire history of the Earth. In this way the mercy, and indeed the loven of God is destroyed.
But then we have Echo’s argument that nature is sufficient for these people to know Christ and his gospel. We have no real evidence that such is truly possible however, and so it also fails to address the dilemma.
We also have your reasoning, that the purpose of the Great Commission is to take the gospel to those who reject the evidence of nature. This is again unsupported, as it relies on the argument given by Echo, which has no actual support.
In all honesty I have yet to hear an explanation from anyone outside the LDS church that actually resolves the dilemma. We solve it because we accept vicarious work for the dead. We do not blindly accept that nature is sufficient, as there is no way it could be. We do not teach automatic salvation to the ignorant, but nor do we teach automatic damnation. Those who are truly ignorant for their entire mortal life will receive the gospel as spirits after death, and thus be judged according to their willingness to accept it when they do finally hear it. In this way God is merciful to all his children, giving each a chance; but he is also just, judging all according to their faith and works.
God resolved the dilema through Christ. We are perfect right now. There are none who are truly ignorant due to original sin.
Why is the atonement necessary? Because God is holy and we are not. Follow the outline below which leads us through scriptures that demonstrate the reason, the problem, and the solution for our sin problem:
http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/atonement
Atonement theologically speaks of God’s acting in human history to reestablish the original relationship between God and man by dealing with Sin. To atone means to make amends, to repair a wrong done. Biblically, it means to remove guilt of man. The Old Testament atonements offered by the high priest were temporary and a foreshadow of the real and final atonement made by Jesus. Man is a sinner (Rom. 5:8) and cannot atone for himself. Therefore, it was the love of the Father that sent Jesus (1 John 4:10) to die in our place (1 Pet. 3:18) for our sins (1 Pet. 2:24). Because of the atonement, our fellowship with God is restored (Rom. 5:10).
Jesus atoned for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). This atonement is received by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9).
LDS:
“We accept Christ’s atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments,” (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, p. 68, emphasis mine).
Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, “This is what saves. This is not what saves.”
Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).
Sanctification is the processes of set apart for God’s work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God’s will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don’t live a perfect life, we are still justified.
Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.
The LDS consistently blur the meanings of the two terms justification and sanctification and misapply the truths taught in God’s word. The result is a theology of works righteousness, of earning their salvation which only leads to damnation. This is because by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16). Man cannot contribute to his salvation (Gal. 5:1-8). Man is sinful and even his best deeds are stained and filthy before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, making a person right before God can only be God’s work (Gal. 2:20).
Typically, in LDS theologies, a person is not justified (declared righteous in God’s eyes) until the final day of judgment when his works are weighed and a reward is given or he is found worthy of his place with God. Thus, a person with this errant theology can not claim 1 John 5:13 as his own which says, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
Contextually, “These things” refers to loving God, being obedient to Him, belief in Christ, and eternal life in Jesus. Therefore, 1 John 5:13 can be considered a test. If you are believing and doing the right things, then you will know if you have eternal life. Can the LDS know he has eternal life? No. He cannot. But a Christian can.
The LDS don’t understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Therefore, they must depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have their sins forgiven which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don’t mix. They can’t. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith, alone. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.
Shem, God said: “Men will be without excuse” believe it. God does not lie.
STEPH
You really don’t understand LDS doctrine. Your errors are so numerous it is impossible to list them all, given the time and space available.
Matthew 12: 31-32 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphamy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphamy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh agaisnt the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Here is the simple truth of the LDS doctrine (using your definitions of the terms justification and santification, which are different).
It is true that we do not believe all men are instantly justified, however, all men will be justified in the end, except those who commit this one unpardonable sin. All men will enter the kingdoms of heaven, having been justified by the Holy Spirit; or having been approved by him for entranced into heaven. Because of the atonement this is possible for all men, and even those without faith will receive it.
I understand that you equate eternal life with heaven, and so to say that all men will enter heaven is to say they gain eternal life. As such, using your own understanding of the terms we actually agree with what you say for the most part. The only difference is that we believe the faithful are justified in this life, while the unfailful are justified after this life (having paid the price of sin themselves in Hell).
Speaking of Santification, again we agree almost completely with what you have said. However, as there has to be some reason for being santified and not just justified, we simply assert that the santified will receive the greater reward in Heaven, receiving more than those who are simply justified. And the more you become santified the greater your reward will be.
If you speak of salvation as entering heaven, then santification has nothing to do with it, as all those who are justified will enter heaven. However, if you take the LDS perspective and speak of salvation as being the greatest reward one can attain in heaven, than Santification plays the largest role. This is why we are told to work out our salvation. It is our obedience that sanctifies us, and thus determines the reward we will receive, and thus what manner our salvation is.
Now, we definitely have greater detail as to how these two things are accomplished, and what the resultant rewards will be, but the basics are the same as what you teach (for the most part).
ECHO
Men are without excuse, and I do believe it. But not for the reasons you give. We must understand this passage in context, which context is once men receive the gospel they are without excuse for even nature supports it.
All men will be without excuse, for all men will be taught the gospel, whether in this life of the next. I believe it with all my heart.
But I do not believe that nature by itself will leave men without excuse, and your insistance that I believe it without any reason beyond your own interpretation of a single verse in the Bible is not very convincing.
Shem says: “All men will enter the kingdoms of heaven, having been justified by the Holy Spirit; or having been approved by him for entranced into heaven. Because of the atonement this is possible for all men, and even those without faith will receive it.”
God says:
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Shem says: “It is our obedience that sanctifies us, and thus determines the reward we will receive, and thus what manner our salvation is.”
God says:
9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 2 Timothy 1:9
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved— Acts 16:30-31
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Ephesians 2:8
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
Isaiah 57:12
I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.
Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 John 5:12,13
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:24
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
John 10:1
1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
Shem said: “But I do not believe that nature by itself will leave men without excuse”
Romans 1:20 makes it very clear that nature, by itself will leave men without excuse…
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. ‘ ”
God’s word is convincing all on it’s own.
Romans 1:22-23 “22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man ”
The LDS Jesus is made to look like mortal man…
“The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this church.”
– Official LDS Lesson Manual, 1997, page 34, “The Teachings of Brigham Young”
God says: The self-righteous refuse Jesus’ salvation:
Matthew 5:20
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 9:10-13
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Matthew 21:31
31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
John 5:35-44
35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
Romans 10:3
3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
The Basics of Eternal Salvation Through Jesus Christ:
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/what-is-salvation/
“The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this church.”
– Official LDS Lesson Manual, 1997, page 34, “The Teachings of Brigham Young.”
This contradicts the Book of Mormon, which at least on this point, is correct. God doesn’t change so He always has been God and He wasn’t a man first.
The BOM in Mormon 9:9 says, ” For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing.”
The Bible does not teach God was a man first and, as I stated, the Book of Mormon is correct on this point because it agrees with the Bible as the BOM does not say anywhere God was a man first.
From the BOM
Moroni 8:18 “18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
Obviously the Mormon Church is in apostasy because the BOM clearly shows that God was never just a man. He was God “from all eternity to all eternity”. He was “unchangeable”
I can respect that you gave an honest answer, even if I do not like it. lol
From my perspective, I see Joseph Smith rewriting sections of the Bible because they either conflicted with his beliefs, or he failed to understand the passage correctly. The Bible was recorded in Greek and Hebrew and so those manuscripts would be superior to any translation. Also, for Joseph Smith to carry over small KJV errors into his translation, it tells me that he was not Divinely inspired.
What I also find interesting is that you point to the Bible as the cause of confusion, while placing all your eggs in Smith’s basket (so to speak). What I mean is, so much rests on the prophet, yet in your own religion, multiple denominations have formed because of confusion over the prophets. One knew Brigham Young to be a true prophet; another knew Joseph Smith III to be the true prophet, another Sidney Rigdon… and so on.
If you would like to go through difficult passages one by one, we can do that.
ECHO
I have shown how Romans 1: 20 does not speak to nature being sufficient by itself, but is simply a great support to those who have learned the Gospel. You have simply ignored what I have said. So, please go back and read again what I posted, and then feel free to comment on it.
Moroni 8: 18 uses the phrase “from all eternity to all eternity.” What does this mean. Brother McKoncie, in his book Mormon Doctrine explains it this way.
“As men view things from their mortal perspective, there was a past eternity and there will be a future eternity. the past eternity embraced the sphere of eternal existance which all men has as the spirit offspring of exalted Parents in pre-existance. The future eternity will be that eternal sphere in which the righteous, having gained both immortality and eternal life, will themselves become exalted parents and have a cntinuation of the seeds forever and ever. In this sense, eternity becomes a measure of eternal ‘time.’ ….
“Having in mind this eternal, unending repetition of the eternal plan of creation, redemption, and salvation, it is plain what our Lord meant when he said he was “from all eternity to all eternity,” and also when he said of himself “From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.” In other words Christ, as an eternal, exalted Being, never varies; from one eternity to the next he is the same. From pre-existance to pre-existance his course goes on in one eternal round, and so will it be with all exalted beings….”
We are not appostate, but nice try in spinning things.
KENT
If you will read the quote from Mormon doctrine you will understand how this passage in Mormon 9 also does not contradict anything we teach. He is the same yesterday (our pre-existance or past eternity), today (our mortal life), and forever (all or future eternities).
Or you can look at it as speaking only to this life with yesterday being past ages, today being this age, and forever encompassing all future ages of the earth.
Either way your argument does not ring true in regards to the meaning of the passage you site, nor to the LDS doctrine concerning God.
“God says:
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6”
I agree, but you misunderstand me. When I say those without faith will receive I speak to those who have not faith in thislife, or in the spirit world. But it si written “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So we know that eventually all people will have faith. But, just making it into Heaven is not pleasing to God, which is all these people will achieve. To truly please God one must gain the greatest rewards of Heaven.
Now, I am not going to comment on every single scripture you site. There are far too many and I do try to keep my comments as short as possible. I will say that I understand each passage in a different way than you do, and I will give an example.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Notice that in verse 17 it says that through Christ the world ‘might’ be saved. This shows that such a salvation is not garunteed.
In verse 16 it says that “whosoever believeth in him should not perish,” not that that they will not. In other words, one who believes has enough to gain salvation, and thus should not perish, but again it is not a garuntee.
Then we read in verse 18 that “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,” a very telling statement. It does not say that he who believes is saved, only that he is not condemned. Considering that it states the unbelieving are already condemned we can see that what is being said is that those who believe have a chance at salvation, and are thus not condemned as yet; but those who do not believe are already condemned, as they have no chance for salvation.
Taking all three verses together we see that this passage does not teach that salvation is solely based on faith, but that faith is simply the starting point, without which no man can be saved.
In a similar way I could give interpretations of each passage, based on the wording and the context of each, that would show great support for what I have said, and none for what you have said. I refrain, as such would take several pages.
As to all the passages regarding the self-righteous, I am not sure I get your point. Could you explain the reasons for make the post?
Shem said: “I have shown how Romans 1: 20 does not speak to nature being sufficient by itself”
The existence of family speaks loudly.
Shem said: “Moroni 8: 18 uses the phrase “from all eternity to all eternity.” What does this mean. Brother McKoncie, in his book Mormon Doctrine explains it this way.
“As men view things from their mortal perspective, there was a past eternity and there will be a future eternity. the past eternity embraced the sphere of eternal existance which all men has as the spirit offspring of exalted Parents in pre-existance. The future eternity will be that eternal sphere in which the righteous, having gained both immortality and eternal life, will themselves become exalted parents and have a cntinuation of the seeds forever and ever. In this sense, eternity becomes a measure of eternal ‘time.’ ….
“Having in mind this eternal, unending repetition of the eternal plan of creation, redemption, and salvation, it is plain what our Lord meant when he said he was “from all eternity to all eternity,” and also when he said of himself “From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.” In other words Christ, as an eternal, exalted Being, never varies; from one eternity to the next he is the same. From pre-existance to pre-existance his course goes on in one eternal round, and so will it be with all exalted beings….”
LOL
Shem said, ” If you will read the quote from Mormon doctrine you will understand how this passage in Mormon 9 also does not contradict anything we teach. He is the same yesterday (our pre-existance or past eternity), today (our mortal life), and forever (all or future eternities).
This still doesn’t say God was a man first so God has always been God and, at least in this instance, the Book of Mormon is correct. So God is the same yesterday (our pre-existance or past eternity)-He is God, today (our mortal life)-He is God, and forever- He is God.
Even Mr. McKoncie’s commentary doesn’t say God was a man first just that men were spirit children of exalted parents in pre-existance and that they in turn can become exalted and have spirit children.
But even so, the Bible doesn’t say anything about any pre-existance as that was something added on to the creation story in the Mormon Book of Moses just as Joseph Smith added on his own coming as a prophet at the end of Genesis in his JST version of the bible.
The Bible doesn’t support your doctrine? Just add something to it and say you had a devine revelation to make it fit.
Shem: “In a similar way I could give interpretations of each passage”
You certainly could and that is the problem. God does not want you to change His word.
Kent hit the nail on the head: “The Bible doesn’t support your doctrine? Just add something to it and say you had a devine revelation to make it fit.”
Add something or change the meaning of the words that’s Mormonism in a nutshell.
“Shem: As to all the passages regarding the self-righteous, I am not sure I get your point. Could you explain the reasons for make the post?”
The self righteous have a very long list of rules that people have to abide by and a zeal to see that these rules are kept. These rules aren’t things God expects of people. They are rules instituted by a religious organization. Jesus didn’t die for religious institutions and traditions. He died for people. People who belong to church denominations are most at risk of faking a form of righteousness simply to fit in. They know what is expected of them and they develop ways to make it appear as if they are abiding by all the church rules. Sadly, many of these rules were never instituted by God. Religion coerces from without, making us behave in certain prescribed ways, although our hearts are not in it. This is a dangerous place to be in as Jesus said, “These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.” (Matthew 15:8-9 NLT). So, unless our righteousness is born from the heart, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How do we attain the kind of righteousness that allows us entry into the kingdom? First of all, we cannot work for it. We have to receive it as a gift. We receive it by faith in Jesus Christ. We are imputed the righteousness of Christ, accepting that we couldn’t perfectly keep God’s laws and accepting that Jesus’ perfect obedience to God’s laws were done on our behalf. We receive the righteousness of Christ by faith in Him.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known…This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:21-24)
If you look back at the verses listed, it points to the refusal of the LDS to accept salvation in Christ 100%. The LDS to not accept justification “freely by His grace”. The LDS are really still under the law and that is bad because breaking 1 law means you are condemned as you are working for your salvation. Remember, Justification first then Sanctification.
My question is, and no one answered it before, is doesn’t the Mormon Church acknowledge the physical creation occured in Genesis? So even if there was a spiritual creation, which there wasn’t as the Bible doesn’t state there was, that still means that man did not exist in a physical form before Genesis and the sun, the moon, and the planets didn’t exist in physical form either before Genesis.
So does that mean God was merely a pre-existing spirit man on a pre-existing spirit planet but not a physical planet before He became God?
It just doesn’t add up so I will stick with the fact that God has always been God and he couldn’t have been a man first because man didn’t exist before the sixth day of creation when God created him out of the dust of the earth.
It follows that since man was dust before he was man, that means that dust can’t create anything as it is just dust and only God, who has always been God, can create.
They say god created the Earth out of preexisting elements, not out of nothing as stated in the Bible. One would have to assume that mormon god existed in physical form on some other planet probably made by some other god who created him out of dust which would also have us assume that all of those elements probably just all came together one day and formed the universe before all of that happened and the first god probably just came together from all of those elements bouncing around out there too. OR maybe mormon god’s body and mormon god’s spirit just kind of were thrown together in some great comic dust storm one day and it just so happened that the dust storm was soooo big that mormon god’s planet was formed out of this cosmic dust storm the same day so that he had a place to live. Kind of like how we get new cars from wind blowing around the junk yard (you’ll have to forgive me here, I have a fuzzy cold head).
None of which makes sense because the Biblical God created the universe out of nothing. That is how AMAZING our God is. He created out of NOTHING!
Steph said,
“They say god created the Earth out of preexisting elements, not out of nothing as stated in the Bible. One would have to assume that mormon god existed in physical form on some other planet probably made by some other god who created him out of dust which would also have us assume that all of those elements probably just all came together one day and formed the universe before all of that happened and the first god probably just came together from all of those elements bouncing around out there too. OR maybe mormon god’s body and mormon god’s spirit just kind of were thrown together in some great comic dust storm one day and it just so happened that the dust storm was soooo big that mormon god’s planet was formed out of this cosmic dust storm the same day so that he had a place to live. Kind of like how we get new cars from wind blowing around the junk yard (you’ll have to forgive me here, I have a fuzzy cold head).
None of which makes sense because the Biblical God created the universe out of nothing. That is how AMAZING our God is. He created out of NOTHING!”
So they claim God was a man first without any kind of concrete scriptural documentation just some vague assumptions that are contradicted by what they claim is the most correct book there is, the Book of Mormon, which they don’t pay attention to regarding God being the same yesterday, today, and forever?
And what about how Hevenly Father is reportedly on some planet circling a star called Kolob which is contradicted by the Bible which says, “Our Father who art in heaven”?
But, as I have been told by a Mormon on this board more than once, I guess I am just on a milk diet spiritually so I haven’t progressed enough to understand the deeper spiritual things.
I do know one thing though and that is that Jesus died on the cross in my place, a sinner who cannot ever save myself and He rose again on the third day so what could be deeper than that?
“And what about how Hevenly Father is reportedly on some planet circling a star called Kolob which is contradicted by the Bible which says, “Our Father who art in heaven”?”
Kolob? Sounds like someone was watching too many Superman movies. Our God is in heaven, He is Spirit, and no one has ever seen Him, not even Joseph Smith.
“I do know one thing though and that is that Jesus died on the cross in my place, a sinner who cannot ever save myself and He rose again on the third day so what could be deeper than that?”
Sounds like “meat” to me! Our God doesn’t keep secrets.
KENT
First, just because Brother McConkie does not state in this particular entry that God is an exalted man, and once lived on a planet himself means nothing. Your argument is based on a particular interpretation of a single passage in scripture. What Brother McConkie does is provide an alternate interpretation, one that gives no contradiction to LDS doctrine and still is perfectly seen in the text of the passage you are sighting.
Simply put, if we accept the interpretation of Brother McConkie than God could have been a man on another planet who is now exalted, and this passage would still rightly apply to him. As such, your argument has failed and the Book of Mormon is seen to teach great doctrine that you are simply unable to understand.
Speaking of the Pre-existence, this truth is all through the Bible, and anyone who actually reads it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will see it.
Notice in Genesis 2: 5 it states that God created “every plant of the field BEFORE it was in the earth, and every herb of the field BEFORE it grew.” It is obvious that life was created somewhere other than this earth before it was placed on this earth. We see this as the spiritual creation that occurred before the physical.
And of course you have Ecclesiastes 12: 7
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
How can the spirit return to where it has never been?
(to be continued.)
KENT
I am not going to argue our doctrine with you. It is clear that you really don’t want to know what we teach, as you continually refuse to listen to anything I or other members say. You prefer the false doctrine spread by ex-members such as Steph to the true doctrine.
However, I will answer your question, even though doing such seems pointless.
The physical creation of this planet took place in Genesis. It was not the physical creation of all things, but only of this planet and those things that would exist on it. It does not record the creation of all the planets that God has created for his children to dwell on, nor does it record all the creations of the generations of gods that came before him, or those that are yet to come.
It was in a previous creation that the planet on which the Father dwelt was created.
Of course you will prefer the ramblings of Steph who obviously knows nothing concerning the greater mysteries of Heaven, and prefers to simply mock the belief and faith of others.
Nothing has ever been formed by accident. You cannot understand because you approach the ideas from a mortal perspective, one that is based in beginnings and ending, that truly cannot exist without such. If you are to understand the eternal worlds you must consider the eternal worlds perspective of no beginning and no ending. There was no first God, and there will be no last God. For there was never a Father without a Son, nor a Son without a Father.
Now, if you want scriptural support for this you will never find it, for the simple fact that you will never look for it. It is there, however, and in the Bible. Anyone who truly seeks will find it. I hesitate to share it with you, as Christ has said do not “cast ye your pearls before swine,” but I feel like I should.
John 5: 19 “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
Christ did only what his Father had done before him. As such, if Christ lay down his life, the Father also has laid down his life; if Christ was born into a physical body, the Father also has been born into a physical body; if Christ rose from the dead, the Father also has risen from the dead; and if Christ has been exalted, the Father also has been exalted.
This verse testifies to the truth that the Father once lived a life just as Christ did, but logic tells us it was on a different planet and in a different time, for it was before Christ lived his life on this planet and this time.
Revelation 1: 6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Christ has made us kings unto God and God’s Father. It is interesting that John would right of the Father of God. We know from the previous verses that this is not talking about Christ and his Father, and Christ is separated from them. This is talking about God (or our Father) and his Father (or the Father of our Father). We thus have scriptural proof that there was some being in existence before God was God, as he had a Father, and, as I stated, there never was a Father without a Son, or a Son without a Father, so we can conclude that this being also had a Father, and so on back through eternity.
Of course Steph will just pass this off as false interpretations, giving nothing beyond her own words to support that assertion, and you will likely accept it. I have no problem with this, but just know that we do have scriptural support for what we teach.
STEPH
As I said before, your statement concerning interpretation was meant only to hijack the discussion so that you could ignore any interpretation I give regarding the scriptures, and you are using as much as you can.
Please note that I have changed none of the words in John 3: 16-18, only given an alternate understanding of those words. As such to claim that I have changed his words is quite simply a lie. I have changed nothing of his word, only contradicted your interpretation of it. Claim your interpretation as his word all you want, but it will not change the fact that all it is is your interpretation and thus can be agreed with or disagreed with, as the person reading it chooses.
Concerning the whole self-righteous rambling, I am still at a loss to understand why you brought it up. it had no bearing on the discussion at hand, and your explanation as to why serves only to further try and hijack the conversation in an attempt to shut me out. It is not honest discussion, and please refrain from making false accusations as to me dishonestly, as you can not show a single time when my posts were dishonest in fact or tactic.
You continue to preach falsely concerning LDS doctrine, and thus show that you have no real care for actual discussion, but have only one thing in mind; and that is the destruction of the LDS faith.
Of course, you mix mockery with your false teachings, making things so much the worse for you. As you know, it was Joseph Smith who first revealed the name of Kolob (or as you should know since you claim to be a former member) and thus to try and equate it with superman is both stupid and insulting. Then to claim that this cannot be heaven just adds to false ideas you choose to spread.
A note: the LDS have never refused to accept anything that is taught in the Bible; but we will always refuse to accept the false doctrines that has been spread and advocated by apostate churches that can only result in the condemnation of anyone who chooses to believe and follow them.
Oh, and please be insulted, as this was definitely meant to do so.
ECHO
I would consider mocking a persons faith and doctrine to be a personal attack and insult, so please refrain from trying to pass off what I said with a casual laughter. If you cannot comment on it, just leave it alone, but please, after advocating civility, do not drop into the realms of the uncivil.
As to the Family, I fail to see your point. I agree that it speaks loudly, but what does it say. That is what you have failed to show. I have never denied that nature speaks to the existence of God, only that it does not explain the nature of God, nor does it teach about the atonement. These are the things I have asked you to explain using nature, as these are the things you claim can be learned through nature, thus leaving men without excuse.
Genesis 2:5
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
BEFORE? I don’t see any BEFORE in there.
Ecclesiastes addresses man’s mortality and has nothing to do with Mormon claims to a pre-existance. Shem is changing the Bible again.
The Bible plainly teaches that God our Creator, created the universe and the earth in the beginning. Thus there was a time when the univere and the earth did not exist. The Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Gen. 1:1; Exod. 20:11, 31:17)
Interestly, the Book of Mormon makes the same statement that God created the heavens and earth.
The LDS church teaches that their god is the God of the Bible, yet they teach he is a material god of flesh and bone who himself was born into the material universe which clearly pre-existed him.
Mormons teach that the “heavens and earth” that their god created was only the earth and the space above the earth and that the words “heaven and earth” do not refer to the entire universe. They try to limit the word “heaven” to only the atmosphere of the earth. However, the God of the Bible said in Genesis 1:14-19, that He created the Sun, Moon and Stars
Another explanation Mormons give is that there are many “universes.” This fits their teaching that their are innumerable gods ruling over a like number of “worlds.” The God of the Bible, who is our Creator said, “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me their is no God” (Isa. 44:6). In Isaiah 44:8, God says, “. . . Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” God further states that He knows of no other god. The normal Mormon response to these emphatic statements by God is to propose that God is saying no other god(s) exists that have anything to do with the earth. In other words, their god is saying…I am the only god to you. You are not responsible to the other gods in the universe, but only to me.” However, that is not what God said; God said no other god(s) exist, there is no God besides me. The erroneous LDS interpretation is clearly refuted because the God of the Bible is omniscient, meaning He knows all things. Surely, if other gods existed He would know it. The Mormon man-god of flesh and bone could not make such a statement, because he is the offspring of some other god who was his father-god. How could he be the offspring of another god who was his father and not know it? This is further evidence that the Mormon god is clearly not the God of the Bible.
Mormonism ignores the question of where life come from. It teaches it came from their god, but it does not address the question of how could their god create life when he, being flesh and bone, is the product of all ready existing life. Logically their god must have received life from some source outside of himself. The Bible tells us that God our Creator is the only God and is the sole source of all life, not just a product of life that existed before. God breathed the breath of life into inert matter that He created and man became a living soul (Gen. 2:7). All men received life from Adam, who received it from God. Man cannot be a god because man is not the source of life. Man got his life from God, and life cannot come from inert matter. I personally believe that Joseph Smith was greatly influenced by the radical claims of evolution being widely proclaimed in his day. I do not think it inconsequential that evolution and Mormonism, which were being born at the same time, have the same basic erroneous concept that everything always existed and that all things are evolving upward to a greater existence.
Mormon God does not equal Biblical God=Idolatry
This is for Shem:
“You continue to preach falsely concerning LDS doctrine, and thus show that you have no real care for actual discussion, but have only one thing in mind; and that is the destruction of the LDS faith.”
Regarding your statement, you again are making assumptions here. I do have one thing in mind, the SALVATION of the LDS. I preach the true gospel of Christ which is salvation through grace by faith. Truth twisted and changed by the LDS church.
STEPH
You once again make false accusations, something far worse than false assumptions.
Again, I have changed nothing regarding the word of God, and all your lies will do nothing to change that fact. I may not believe your interpretation of those words, but the words I used are the ones found in the Bible.
As to the word before, I understand it not being in your quote, as you use a different translation than I do. I quoted the King James Version, word for word. All you did was to dismiss what I said by quoting a different translation and then claiming that what I said was not there. Another dishonest tactic again employed.
You also continue with your false teachings regarding LDS doctrine, and are thus lying to everyone who reads what you write.
“Mormons teach that the “heavens and earth” that their god created was only the earth and the space above the earth and that the words “heaven and earth” do not refer to the entire universe.”
What we teach is that God has created worlds without number, and has placed life on many of them, as they are to be the dwelling place of his children. This planet is but one among the incalculable creations of God. He has created all the visible universe, which includes all the stars that we are just now able to perceive with our modern technology.
“Mormonism ignores the question of where life come from.”
Again you lie, as this is one of the great truths of the gospel. It is quite simple: Where does life come from? It the broadest sense it doesn’t, but has always been and always will be. We, as individual living beings, are co-eternal with God, having always existed. In a mortal sense all life comes from God, for he is the creator and sustainer of our mortal lives, for which we are indebted to him.
Every time you claim to tell what LDS doctrine is all you are able to do is lie and twist it into what you want it to be. How can anyone really trust you? Please, be insulted, as all the lies you tell about my faith and my religion are insulting.
Please, refrain from your own deception before you try to accuse us of any.
THE MAN FROM KOLOB
There once was an ambitious man from Kolob,
Who progressed and got a new job.
Elohim, Mormons say, is his name,
And the “Council of gods” made earth his domain.
This “eternal progression” they also strive to follow,
If only all of Mormonism they would but swallow!
Gods and goddesses they say they too can be,
Faith in “the only true church” is the entry key.
Now this “heavenly Father” of flesh and bone,
Was not content to just sit on his throne.
He had many wives and was busy as a bee,
Producing spirit children throughout all eternity.
Then two of his kids strongly disagreed,
Over who’s plan would best succeed.
Jesus and Lucifer were they;
One was redeemer and one was the devil,
A strange brotherhood, I’d say!
Elohim looked on down,
For a choice virgin to be found;
Mary was his daughter, then became his wife,
Together they produced Jesus for this life.
This elder brother only purchased their resurrection,
For by their own good works they can come to perfection.
Of the cross there is surely no need,
But by their own laws and covenants they’ll succeed!
This isn’t the Jesus of Scripture,
Who for my salvation did die.
So Mormons, I’m sorry,
I won’t see you in glory since
JOSEPH SMITH HAS TOLD YOU A LIE!
By Lorri MacGregor (rewritten by Jenell McGregor)
Deception/Lies?
– The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. The Prophet Brigham Young taught in General Conference: “So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized.” See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: “Earth to be Celestialized Sun”
– The Earth actually has a spirit, just like we do. It had to be baptized (the flood) to fulfill all righteousness, just like us. It will also have to receive the baptism of fire (at the second coming of Christ) in order to receive its exaltation and become a celestialized world. See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith’s “Doctrines of Salvation,” Volume 1, pages 73-74, page 87 “Celestial Destiny of the Earth.” See also Moses Chapter 7:48-49, 56 where the Earth’s spirit speaks with Enoch.
– When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, the Earth was closely orbiting Kolob, like God’s home planet. But when Adam and Eve fell, so did the Earth and it was hurled across the cosmos and placed in orbit around our sun in this planetary system. After the Millenium, the Earth will return to its rightful place near God, orbiting Kolob. See Church Ensign, March 1997, Page 16 “The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book,” and Journal of Discourses, 17:143 and Journal of Discourses 7:163
– God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God’s blueprints. See Abraham 3:22-24, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pages 74-75.
Earth is the most evil of all of God’s worlds in the Universe. See Moses 7:36
UFOs are from the lost ten tribes, which live underneath the north pole. As explained in the Doctrine and Covenants, these tribes will return by flight from the north in the Last Days. See D&C 110:11 and 133:26.
Shem said, “You also continue with your false teachings regarding LDS doctrine, and are thus lying to everyone who reads what you write.”
The problem with “LDS doctrine” is that it seems that there are a lot of different “doctrines” floating around out there depending on who is doing the talking whether it be the home teacher, the bishop, the seminary teacher, the institute teacher, or the speaker at a fireside. So, it seems to me that you had better prove me a liar before accusing me of being one. I’m quite sure you have not been present for the telling of every story that has ever been told regarding LDS beliefs.
Steph, are the last two posts really what Mormons are taught, the stuff that people on a spiritual milk diet, that is what some Mormons think of me, supposedly can’t understand yet? If so, those beliefs are just plain wacky!
Kent, I can not find “Doctrines Of Salvation” online, but here are links to the other works, if you wish to investigate the context of the material Steph provided:
Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants: http://lds.org/scriptures/?lang=eng
Journal of Discourses: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FJournalOfDiscourses3
If you are unfamiliar with the Books of Moses and Abraham, they can both be found in The Pearl of Great Price.
Kent they start you off on “milk” which is the Book of Mormon which does not contain their key doctrines. The rest of the “meat” or key doctrine come a little here and there as a person grows to be able to handle all of that meat. Of course, by then you are sucked in pretty deep.
Here’s some more meat for you:
Mormon view asserts that the fall was a necessary condition for man to realize his ultimate potential…. to the Mormon the fall is a fall upward rather than downward…. Rather than the view of literalistic Christian orthodoxy where Adam is conceived as the cause of human suffering, … Mormonism holds Adam in very high esteem….
The ‘fall’ of man became a necessary, honorable act in carrying out the plan of the Almighty” (Joseph Smith—Seeker After Truth, p. 160).
Joseph Fielding Smith also said that “the fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, … I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin…. it is not always a sin to transgress a law” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 114-15).
Under Christ Adam yet stands at our head…. Adam fell, but he fell in the right direction. He fell toward the goal….
Adam fell, but he fell upward. Jesus says to us, “Come up higher” (Deseret News, Church Section, July 31, 1965, p. 7).
On April 9, 1852, Brigham Young publicly preached the Adam-God doctrine. In this sermon he declared:
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later … the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51).
Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine met with opposition both within and without the church. In October 1857 he stated: “Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 331).
In a sermon delivered in 1852, Brigham Young stated: “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body… . He helped to make and organize this world” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50). Brigham Young also taught: “You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; … I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do [sic],” (vol. 2, p. 6). “Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle” (vol. 3, p. 319).
Brigham Young also taught that Adam was the Father of our spirits. In 1873 he stated: “… Father Adam came here and helped make the earth…. Then he said, ‘I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here…. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh …” (Deseret News, June 18, 1873).
When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family … I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone…. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51).
In the Women of Mormondom we read: “Adam is our Father and God. He is the God of the earth. So says Brigham Young…. He is the father of our elder brother, Jesus Christ—the father of him who shall also come as Messiah to reign. He is the father of the spirits as well as the tabernacles of the sons and daughters of man. Adam!” (Women of Mormondom, p. 179).
When the Mormon church was accused of teaching that “Adam is God … and that Jesus is his son,” the Mormon historian B. H. Roberts replied: “As a matter of fact, the ‘Mormon’ Church does not teach that doctrine. A few men in the ‘Mormon’ Church have held such views: and several of them quite prominent in the councils of the Church, … Brigham Young and others may have taught that doctrine …” (Deseret News, July 23, 1921).
Brigham was a “prophet” yes or no? If he had it wrong how many others in the LDS church have had it wrong? Would you entrust your soul to LDS “prophets”?
More ramblings from the 2nd Prophet, Brigham Young:
“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).
“I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
“I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161).
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
“…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).
“God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120).
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
“In a sermon delivered in 1852, Brigham Young stated: “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body… . He helped to make and organize this world” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50). Brigham Young also taught: “You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; … I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do [sic],” (vol. 2, p. 6). “Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle” (vol. 3, p. 319).”
Interesting that Brigham Young says he doesn’t believe a portion of the Bible as the Christians would so this shows that contrary to what current Mormons want us to believe that they are Christians, one of their most reverred leaders stated that they aren’t Chirstians.
“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family … I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone…. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51).”
So Adam is our Father in Heaven and Jesus, in his incarnation, was begotten by Adam? I would say that Mr. Young answered the question that proves, if people believe this stuff, that people are on a journey to damnation and not progression to someday, maybe, to become gods.
Adam was not our father on earth or in heaven. Jesus Christ is not Adam’s son and He was indeed begotten by the Holy Spirit (Ghost) and Adam didn’t help and organize this world as a created being, he was a creation and not a creator. The Bible clearly says, “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” it doesn’t sayAdam had anything to do with it.
Thank God for Mark Cares’ ministry that tells people about the real God of the universe who knows all and is omnipresent, and is not some so called god limited by a physical body who may be on some planet near a star called Kolob. My hopes and prayers are that more people see the light and get off of the road to damnation.
Adam, the man who rebelled against God, is the God of Mormons.
Adam, the man who wore a fig leaf apron to cover up or rather hide his rebellion against God, from God, is the God of Mormons.
It all makes perfect sense! That’s pretty much all Mormon leaders and apologists ever do. They cover up every truth a Christian ever exposes.
And these LDS leaders/Apologists lead Mormons by deceiving them…
Is Robert Millet, LDS apologist, intentionally trying to deceive LDS people?
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet misquotes C.S. Lewis: Podcast
[audio src="http://ia600600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.05.Millet.Misquotes.C.S.Lewis.1.mp3" /]
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet misquotes C.S. Lewis and the Church Fathers: Podcast
[audio src="http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.06.Millet.Misquotes.C.S.Lewis.2.mp3" /]
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet misquotes John MacArthur: Podcast
[audio src="http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.07.Millet.Misquotes.John.MacArthur.mp3" /]
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet misquotes Floyd McElveen: Podcast
[audio src="http://ia600600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.08.Millet.Misquotes.Floyd.McElveen.mp3" /]
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet misquotes Gordon Hinckley: Podcast
[audio src="http://ia600600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.09.09.Millet.Misquotes.Gordon.Hinckley.mp3" /]
Mormon Apologist Robert Millet, LDS apologist- Lying for the Lord: Video
The same goes with “Ralph” the LDS fellow that spent years posting on this blog. He plagiarized someone else’s work and posted it here. When he got caught in his plagiarism, he tried to cover it up, to hide that truth by attempting to wiggle his way out of it and make himself “appear” innocent. He even tried to turn the blame to me to get the focus off of himself. He pulled every string he could think of.
The quotes he plagiarized in and of themselves were all misquotes of the church fathers and CS Lewis as well.
Continual misquotes no longer are considered an innocent mistake, what they really are is intentional deception.
This video was taken off of UTUBE. i.e. “BANNED” It came back with this FBI note. I wonder why? Who didn’t want the full clip on UTUBE?
So Mormons are not supposed to quote their sources for why they believe what they believe, that if someone asks them, for example, do they believe that God was once a man who became God?
Fine, they can answer the question was Joseph Smith called to God, if they are asked that question, but would they quote sources for why they believe that he was called to God or would they tell a non Mormon who asked the question to read the Bood of Mormon and see if they get a warm feeling after reading it? Despite the fact that the BOM doesn’t teach a lot of the key doctrines of the church anyway.
By the way, after reading the BOM I didn’t get any kind of warm feeling the feelings I got were that it is boring, it is poorly written, it has way too many, especially in the early sections of it of sayings like- “it came to pass, it came to pass” to make it sound biblical, and none of the characters or the scenes they were in seemed real to me. and I did pray about it and the answer I got was it isn’t true, except for the parts that were flat out copied from the Bible and the sections that say God doesn’t change which reinforced that God has always been God so he couldn’t have been a man first.
Check out this Christian blog. A Mormon by the name of “Scott” makes a post that contains plagiarism. That is a sin. And it’s an epidemic among Mormons!
http://fruitoftheword.com/2011/10/shocking-christian-books/#comment-2233
Kent,
My Brother in Law is Mormon, A high councellor. . I told him about the Adam God doctrine and he got a “Bad feeling” from that because he never heard of the Adam God doctrine before.
He told me that I had lost all credibility with him.
I gave him links to this information from LDS sources and told him his feelings were wrong about me and that it was one of his own prophets that really had lost credibility with him.
I then said: “if your “bad feelings” caused you to be wrong about me, couldn’t your “good feelings” about the BOM and your Church be wrong also?” Then I said: “Your feelings can be wrong and they are wrong.”
“God warns us about “feelings”… Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.””
I had given my BIL a quote a few weeks before all of this transpired…
“‘condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance” ~Albert Einstein
And my BIL agreed with that.
After this Adam God Doctrine came up, I said: “You condemned me before investigating what I said and all based on your “bad feelings”. And that is the height of ignorance to which the LDS Church has led you.”
““When we were created by God the Father, and had received from him all kinds of good things, the devil came and led us into disobedience, sin, death, and all evil. We lay under God’s wrath and displeasure, doomed to eternal damnation, as we had deserved. There was no counsel, no help, no comfort for us until this only and eternal Son of God, in his unfathomable goodness, had mercy on our misery and wretchedness and came from heaven to help us. Those tyrants and jailers now have been routed, and their place has been taken by Jesus Christ, the Lord of life and righteousness and every good and blessing. He has snatched us, poor lost creatures, from the jaws of hell, won us, made us free, and restored us to the Father’s favor and grace. He has taken us as his own, under his protection, in order that he may rule us by his righteousness, wisdom, power, life, and blessedness.” (Large Catechism)
The sin of rebellion that Adam was guilty of in Eden led us all into sin and damnation. The sin of rebellion that Adam was guilty of brought upon us all God’s wrath and displeasure and doomed us to Hell.
That is the God of Mormonism. Adam God.
STEPH
Can we please stop spreading lies and trying to pass it off as LDS doctrine? I know it is difficult for you, seeing as honest discussion seems to always go against you, but I think it is worth a try.
First we have the stupidity of the lost tribes being under the North Pole. Of course you need such to spin your views and deceive the world, but anyone who actually believes this is an idiot.
D&C 110: 11 “After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.”
D&C 133: 26 “And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.”
History tells us that the ten tribes went North, to a land that had not yet been settled, so these passages are perfectly in line with this. The truth of LDS doctrine is that no one knows where the ten tribes are, but it is assumed that they went into Russia and Scandinavia, where there is plenty of ice to fit the description of these passages.
The idiocy of UFOs and flying in is a false doctrine, spread by fools and apostates in an attempt to discredit the church through deception.
Then you claim that the key doctrines of the church are not in the Book of Mormon, and yet reference one that is taught in the most beautiful way in the Book of Mormon, showing again your deception (or your ignorance).
Adam’s Fall was necessary, and this is found in the Book of Mormon, as much as you want to imply that it isn’t. (2 Nephi 2)
We then have to again resort to stupidity in bringing up the ever favorite Adam-God doctrine. Of course it is easy to deceive people with a few quotes taken from various talks by Brigham Young, knowing full well that most people will not have the opportunity to fully study the words of Brigham Young to learn what he means by them. I even seriously doubt that you have read a tenth of what Brigham Young said, or even the talks that these quotes are taken from.
For the benefit of those who are actually seeking truth, let me provide a few other quotes.
“If the enemies of the Church who quote this wished to be honest, they could not help seeing that President Brigham Young definitely declares that Adam is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, which indicates definitely that Adam is not Elohim, or the God whom we worship, who is the Father of Jesus Christ…”
Smith, Joseph Fielding. “The Adam-God Theory.” Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 96-106
The reported statements [of this theory] conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time. So how do Latterday Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don’t; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. … It is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don’t know what “it” is. … Even experts of his thought are left to wonder whether he was misquoted, whether he meant to say one thing and actually said another, whether he was somehow joking with or testing the Saints, or whether some vital element that would make sense out of the reports has been omitted. … Whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church for a sustaining vote. It was not then and is not now a doctrine of the Church. … It contradicts the LDS scriptures; it contradicts the teachings of Joseph Smith; it contradicts other statements by Brigham Young made during the same period of time; it contradicts the teachings of all the prophets since Brigham Young; and it contradicts the sacred ordinances of the LDS temples, with which Brigham Young was intimately familiar. ad
Robinson, Stephen. Are Mormons Christians? pp. 19-20
“Elder Charles C. Rich, of the Council of the Twelve, was not present on the day when President Young gave an address that was wrongly reported as saying Adam was our Father in heaven. (See JD 1:51)…In a copy of the Journal of Discourses Elder Ben E. Rich, son of Elder Charles C. Rich, referred to the misquotation as it appears in the Journal of Discourses, and in his own hand corrected the statement to read as follows: ‘Jesus our elder Brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character who talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.’ In this same statement Ben E. Rich worte ‘As corrected above is what Prest. Young said, as testified to me by my father, C. C. Rich.’ JAS
PUBLICATION : Petersen, Mark E. Adam – Who is He? (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1979): 16-24.
While it is true that Brigham Young believed Adam was a divine being before he came to live in the Garden, he never taught that he was the God we worship, nor did he ever teach that he was the physical Father of Christ. When we take all we have of his teachings we are simply left to wonder “what did he mean by all this,” and only the dishonest who seek the destruction of the church use such in their endless assault.
Now, you do list several other quotes, giving only a brief snippet of each, obviously hoping that no one has read, or will bother to read them in context, as few of them actually mean what you want them to mean. They are simply used by you in your continued deceitful tactics.
Example: “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269) Just from what is given it is implied that Brigham Young taught that if you don’t have more than one wife you loose out on the blessings.
Full quote: Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists AT LEAST IN YOUR FAITH, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: “We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,” − the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.”
It is thus obvious that acceptance of the doctrine is all that is required, and belief that it is of God. Believe Abraham was a just and righteous man, one that did not rebel against God; and accept that those who follow his example are all just and righteous.
KENT
The LDS members are taught to site sources. The difficulty comes in the fact that many do not know the sources, and so when you ask for them they cannot given them to you. I will admit that much of what I know to be doctrine of the church I cannot give a source for, and so I generally do not talk about those things with people who do not also have this understanding.
This is what is meant by the meat. The meat is having an understanding and knowledge of gospel truths within yourself, and not relying on others. When you have this understanding, which is only attainable through the Spirit of God, then you can be taught those truths for which direct references are not always known by the people you are talking to, but who know the truth of the doctrine regardless.
If you want to know anything concerning the LDS church I am perfectly happy to answer any question, as long as it is asked in a polite manner, with no attempt to mock or ridicule. I will give sources when I can, and if I cannot I will still answer, but with the understanding that my answer is of myself, and thus may be incorrect.
Do not rely on the deception of apostates like Steph to learn the truths of our religion, or you will be forever in the dark concerning us and what we teach.
ECHO
Again you start with the insults and accusations. Can’t you even take your own advice?
Shem said “Do not rely on the deception of apostates like Steph to learn the truths of our religion, or you will be forever in the dark concerning us and what we teach.”
Technically, every non Mormon posting on this blog is an “apostate” so why do you like applying that specifically to me so much?
Also, you seem to have missed my point earlier. It doesn’t matter if something is considered to be official church doctrine or not. If Mormons are teaching it, it will be believed as truth and there are a lot of Mormons out there teaching stuff that is NOT official doctrine. Who would know what to believe?
I find it interesting the way the LDS pick and choose things to support what they want to believe.
More on Adam God
http://www.mrm.org/adam-god
Should We Stop Addressing Non-Official Teachings and Beliefs?
http://www.mrm.org/official-doctrine
Shem said: “Again you start with the insults and accusations. Can’t you even take your own advice?”
These aren’t personal attacks against you Shem, they are doctrinal facts. The part about Ralph etc. those are not assumptions. Those comments are based on facts.
Thanks for all the links Steph,
I have experienced the http://www.lds.org disappearing links myself. Links that I personally feel paint Mormonism into a corner they can’t get out of. Sooner or later those links just disappear.
Shem said: “Can we please stop spreading lies and trying to pass it off as LDS doctrine? .”
Steph has provided LDS quotes (Facts). Telling her that she is “spreading lie’s” is an assumption. No assumptions in the discussions please. Give us facts.
Shem said: “I know it is difficult for you, seeing as honest discussion seems to always go against you, but I think it is worth a try”
Please keep assumptions out of the discussions.
Shem said: “First we have the stupidity of the lost tribes being under the North Pole. Of course you need such to spin your views and deceive the world, but anyone who actually believes this is an idiot.”
Please keep assumptions out of the discussions.
Shem said: “They are simply used by you in your continued deceitful tactics.”
Keep personal attacks and assumptions out of the discussions.
Shem said: “and only the dishonest who seek the destruction of the church use such in their endless assault.”
Please keep assumptions out of the discussions.
And on and on and on.
Shem said: “and only the dishonest who seek the destruction of the church use such in their endless assault.”
Did it occur to you that if I had an axe to grind I would just let it be and keep my mouth shut since the LDS have taken care of their own destruction according to the Bible?
Mormon God not omnipotent:
“Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such…since God ‘acquired’ the honor and sustaining influence of ‘all things’ it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or ‘sense of justice’ of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the ‘power’ of God would disintegrate…’He would cease to be God'” ~W. Cleon Skousen (The First 2,000 Years, pp. 355-356).
Shem said on the ADAM GOD doctrine: “Now, you do list several other quotes, giving only a brief snippet of each, obviously hoping that no one has read, or will bother to read them in context, as few of them actually mean what you want them to mean. They are simply used by you in your continued deceitful tactics.”
Have you read the context for yourself? If yes, then provide the context for us please.
Context from the Deseret News (an LDS publication)
http://www.challengemin.org/gofm6.html
Context from the Journal of Discourses (an LDS publication)
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-jd-v1p50.html
Bill McKeever states: “In his journal dated February 19, 1854, Wilford Woodruff, who would later become Mormonism’s fourth president, wrote that Brigham Young “said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ — Our God was no more or less than ADAM, Michael the Arkangel (sic).””
So here we have Wilford Woodruff stating that Brigham Young indeed taught that God was Father Adam.
Bill McKeever states: “”History shows that Orson Pratt’s understanding of what Brigham was teaching actually caused a severe rift in LDS leadership. Pratt strongly disagreed with Young’s doctrine and made it clear he had “no confidence in it” (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1980, pg. 30).”
The fact that Pratt “strongly disagreed with Young’s doctrine” means that Pratt believed Brigham taught it!
Bill McKeever states: ” Some have excused Young’s statements by claiming he was not speaking as a prophet because he did not begin his sermon with “Thus saith the Lord.” ”
In other words, the LDS (some) agree that, that prophet did teach the Adam God doctrine because NOW they are saying he wasn’t speaking for the Lord. However other LDS doctrine teaches that “thus saith the Lord” is not necessary for a prophet to speak for the Lord.
Bill McKeever says: “Over a year later, the Latter-Day Saints’ Millennial Star (no. 48, vol. 15, November 26, 1853) quoted Brigham’s Adam-God sermon from the Journal of Discourses. It then counseled Mormons to take the Adam-God teaching and the Journal of Discourses very seriously:”
See those links here…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CFIoAAAAYAAJ&dq=mormon%20%22our%20Father%20Adam%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1860&as_brr=0&pg=RA1-PA769#v=onepage&q=%22our%20Father%20Adam%22&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=CFIoAAAAYAAJ&dq=mormon%20%22our%20Father%20Adam%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1860&as_brr=0&pg=RA1-PA780#v=onepage&q=%22our%20Father%20Adam%22&f=false
Check out this link…
http://www.mrm.org/our-father-adam
Check out this link…
http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/dialogue&CISOPTR=20104&CISOSHOW=19915
Check out this link…
http://blog.mrm.org/2007/02/brigham-youngs-lecture-at-the-veil/
Check out this link…
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Adam-God
Check out this link…
http://books.google.com/books?id=qAaqh2hkwQMC&lpg=PA80&dq=%22millenial%20star%22%20adam-god&pg=PA77#v=onepage&q&f=false
You are right Steph, the “facts” and the “truth” testify against Mormonism.
No amount of: “only the dishonest who seek the destruction of the church use such in their endless assaults” type of comments, which Shem continually resorts to, is going to change the “facts” and the “truth”.
Shem,
Here is more proof and context of the Adam God Doctrine…
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-dn-p308.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-hsdiary-v2p435.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-jd-v1p50.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-ms-v15p769.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-ms-v15p801.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-ms-v16p534.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-ms-v17p195.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-wwd-v4p129.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-wwd-v6p381.html
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/ag-wom-p179.html
I have read in the Journal of Discourses in the secton where Brigham Young says the Father is Adam and it is very clear that we are not taking what he said out of context at all. The first paragraph of page 50 deals with God being everywhere
The second paragraph of page 50 deals with the Father having a body, the Son having a body, but that the Spirit doesn’t have a body. So if Mary became pregnant by the Holy Ghost as the Bible says, then that would make the Son illegitimate. The second paragraph also says that the Father begat every spirit that is and ever was on earth and how we were first made spiritual but then we were made temporal, and in the third paragraph he clearly says that our Father, our God, is Adam and that Jesus was begotten by Adam and not by the Holy Ghost and this theme is continued into page 51.
Mr. Young clearly says our God, our father is Adam, that is pure heresy. Didn’t Mr. Young say that anything he said in a sermon could be considered scripture but he left it open that he could go back and correct something?
As far as the Adam/God doctrine is concerned, he never went back and corrected it, did he? So if he never corrected the Adam/God doctrine, dosen’t that make it Mormon scripture?
My God is not Adam, a sinner who, along with his wife Eve, brought sin into the world by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and he had to stand in front of God’s judgment who didn’t create a single thing. On the other hand, my God created everything there ever was and everything that there ever will be!
Add on to my last post, my God is sinless and always has been sinless so he couldn’t be the sinner Adam.
We have been accused by some of the Mormons who come here of trying to destroy their faith but if their faith is the truth, it can never be destroyed no matter what we say.
The Mormon religion is just has too many contradictions so just stick with the Bible and nothing else and its truth will set you free!
Most Mormons will say God was a sinner:
1 Corinthians 15:40-60
New International Version (NIV)
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
To clarify, the last Adam is Christ, a life-giving spirit.
The key points:
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
Man did not have a spiritual pre-existence as the LDS teach. “The spiritual did NOT come first, but the natural, and AFTER that the spiritual.”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
It was sin that brought us under deaths power-Adam’s sin that brought his death and ours. The law of God gives sin it’s power, for it reveals our sin and condemns us because of our sin.
Mormon god is flesh and bone, not spirit, and was a sinner. God’s redeemed people receive a glorified spiritual body. Mormon, God the Father, is a resurrected, “exalted” human being. How did that happen? He was a sinner who perfected himself. How did a sinner receive a resurrected body as Christ did? Christ did NOT EVER sin. At best Mormon god SHOULD have a glorified spiritual body because he DID sin. Flesh and Blood Mormon god could not even inherit the kingdom of our BIblical God. Seems to me we have more evidence that the god of Mormonism is a different god=idolotry.
More evidence that Mormons are practicing idolatry:
http://www.mrm.org/god-of-mormonism
More on Adam god:
http://www.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/ag5.htm
As I said, the Book of Mormon, the so called most correct book on earth, had it right on this one point, God has always been God so he was never a sinner like us.
The video where Mormons were asked if God could have been a sinner in the past shows that a lot of Mormons don’t even follow their own Book of Mormon because if they did, they would not think it was possible for God to change from being a sinner into being a sinless God.
Mormon 9:9 “For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever”,
Also, as I said before, your doctrine doesn’t fit what the Bible says, add to the Bible to make it fit what you are teaching. Example, adding on in the Mormon Book of Moses to the creation story that there was a spiritual creation before there was a physical creation. This contradicts what the Bible clearly says on the subject below
1 Corinthians 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
Romans 1:22-23 ” Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man “
The fall of the LDS
“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48
Here’s my analogy:
“we will have the privilege of becoming like him” “To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood;” “We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds,” ~ Joseph Fielding Smith
Satan was removed from heaven because of pride (has anyone noticed this is a common theme in the Bible, pride=fall). Proverbs 16:17-19 and 29:23: pride goes before destruction, a mans pride will bring him low.
Satan wanted to be God not a servant of God.
Isaiah 14:12–15
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
Now look at this:
Satan wanted to be God (“I will be like the Most High”), guess what he tempted Eve with in the garden:
Genesis 3:1–5
The Fall
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
“your eyes will be opened and you will be like God”
Eat the fruit and you will be like God!
Has Satan changed his ways? I think NOT!
Another falsehood the Mormon Church is teaching about God is that He has a physical body of flesh and bone, just like we have. The passage below says that flesh and blood, and I will make the assumption that flesh and bone also cannot inherit the kingdom of God, that if we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in our physical bodies, that God could not possibly have a physical body either as how could he be in heaven with a physical body let alone be God and have a physical body?
1 corinthians 15:50:
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption”
The solution, Mormons just believe that Jesus died in our place, sinners who can never save ourselves, for our sins and rose again from the dead on the third day so that you too can be with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father when you leave this earth and you can know now, not later, that your place in eternity is secure. Just trust in what He did 2000 years ago to save you. As I have said before, saved just doesn’t mean you live in the resurrection with a chance, maybe, of being worthy enough but it means you can be worthy because Jesus Christ is worthy so put all your trust in Him and His efforts and not in your own.
The Bible teaches that we, as believers, will be like angels of heaven , but not gods, and there is no marriage in the afterlife so no, we don’t have to be married in some temple ceremony here on earth.
Mark 12:25
” For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
This “milk” is so much simpler and it saves souls:
Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 10:9-10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Galatians 5:1-6
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 1:8-12
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/user/carterfamily8903#p/c/A732D20C49F26BF7/7/QEil7Ze38RM
There are no “ifs” in God’s plan of Salvation
Excellent video series:
The whole series (above) is not playing here, but can be found on you tube: Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith uploaded by MRMdotORG from goodnewsforlds.com.
ECHO
I know what I was saying was personal accusation, and it was intended as such. You and Steph are spreading false doctrine and claiming it to be actual doctrine of the church. Despite all your grand words of love and caring displaces a contempt for us and our faith.
As to the fall fo Adam, I don’t care what you believe, but if you accept what you teach than you have to also accept that Satan was able to frustrate the plans and designs of God. If the fall of man was not part of the original plan, and if Christ was not prepared from the beginning to be the savior of the world, than God is seen to be defeated in his original purpose and forced to improvise a new plan.
I prefer a God who knows everything that will happen, and whose plans are never frustrated. As such I believe that an omnipotent and omniscient God not only knew that Adam would fall, but made such a fall part of his original plan.
Steph
I really don’t care what individuals believe. Adam is not our God, and few people actually except that. It isn’t even a majority. So, to justify your deception as ‘members believe it’ is rediculous.
I really can’t stumach you anymore. The lies and deception have become truly nausious.
KENT
On page 51 it states that the Father of Christ was the figure who walked in the Garden of Eden. Do we not read in the Bible that God walked with Adam in the Garden?
Also, did you not read the correction made to this statement that I posted, in which it is corrected to say that Christ’s Father was the figure who walked ‘with Adam’ in the Garden?
Considering these two points, can you actually say that in this case the context teaches that Adam is our God? Such a conclusion is to blindly accept what others tell you without actually considering it yourself.
It has been stated that “Adam is our Father and our God, and the only God with which we have to deal.”
What does this mean? Adam is our father, for he is the first of all men, and all men are his descendents. But is he our God? In a sense. The Father is a God over all his creations, which includes many more worlds than this. He has given this rulership to His Son Jesus, and so the Son is also the God over all his Father’s creations. However, since there must be order, each planet which in the habitation of our Father’s children will be presided over by one who is the God of that planet, but who is still under the authority of the Father and the Son.
Compare it to a corporation. The president is over the entire company, but each branch has a branch president over that branch, who is under the authority of the Company president, but who is the one most people working in that branch will deal with on a common basis.
To say one last thing, I have not, nor will I ever deny that Brigham Young taught that Adam was a god, a Celestial being, when he came into the Garden of Eden. He does teach thes. But Adam is still referred to as Michael, not Eloheim, and thus not the Head of the Gods whom we worship. However, he did teach he was a god, a doctrine that many accepted and many rejected. It is true that there were some who urged Brigham Young to excommunicate Orson Pratt because the later denounced the doctrine. Brigham Young refused to do this, which shows that such a doctrine, though taught, is meaningless. To believe it or disbelieve it means nothing in regards to church membership or salvation.
Then you also have to ask yourself that if he didn’t put such a high regard on the doctrine himself, would Brigham Young really want us, or anyone else, fighting over it now. He taught it, but that does not make it true, only something that he believed.
Now, I would also like to comment on what you say concerning ‘flesh and blood’ and ‘flesh and bones.’ These two phrases are not synonymous. We read that the blood is the life (Genesis 9: 4; Leviticus 17: 14; Deuteronomy 12: 23). Thus it is the blood that makes us mortal. That is why when Christ was resurrected and appeared to the twelve he said he had ‘flesh and bones’ (Luke 24: 39) as he was no longer mortal, and thus no longer had blood in his veins.
You are correct that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but flesh and bones can.
As I said, if you wish to know anything I am willing to answer any question, but do not assume that appostates and fools are correct without asking one who actually knows and lives the life of a member.
A dangerous teaching of the Mormon Church is that we still have a chance, after we die, to progress to a higher heaven and that even unbelievers go to a lower heaven but the Bible teaches that there are just two choices heaven, to be in the presence of Heavenly Father, or hell (outer darkness) and the only way to get to heaven is by believing in Jesus Christ, what He did on the cross by dying in our place, sinners who cannot save ourselves and who cannot ever be worthy enough to be with Heavenly Father.
The passage below shows we have just this lifetime to get right with God
Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
The following passage shows that believers will have everlasting life, which means eternal life, but unbelievers are condemned and condemned does not mean a lower heaven, it means spiritual death, hell (outer darkness). So Mormons, if you are not sure you are worthy enough to be able to be with Heavenly Father this instant, if you happen to die today, then, sorry you are in danger of hell (outer darkness).
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Definition of CONDEMN
transitive verb
1
: to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation
2
a: to pronounce guilty : CONVICT b: SENTENCE, DOOM
The solution? Believe in and trust in the only one who can save you, Jesus Christ, and what He did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day and you can know now, not later, that you can be with Heavenly Father forever and not face the torment of outer darkness so you can be assured now and never be concerned about ever being worthy enough again.
Myself? I know I am not worthy and never will be worthy but the Good News, the real Gospel, is that Jesus Christ is worthy and his grace, not after all I can do but a free gift, is all I need!
To some of the Mormons who come here who have doubts about what their church is teaching, I have never been trying to win some debate with people here and no, I am not tyring to destroy your faith. Besides, if your faith is the truth, as I have said, there is nothing I can say to ever destroy it. Really, all I am trying to do is present the truth and I believe the truth will set you free. Sorry, buy I just don’t believe that what your church teaches is the truth and I would be negligent if I didn’t say anything about it.
Shem said: “You and Steph are spreading false doctrine and claiming it to be actual doctrine of the church.”
Why doesn’t the LDS ever own up to it’s historical teachings. These are LDS publications Shem. That fact makes me very suspicious.
Shem said: ” Despite all your grand words of love and caring displaces a contempt for us and our faith. ”
Shem, we don’t have contempt for you. I am NOT “anti-Mormon” however I will fully admit I am “anti-Mormonism” and that’s because I care about the enormous harm it is doing to your soul. Harm that ends in your destruction in outer darkness. If I saw a man trying to stab you in the back with a knife, I would try and stop him from killing you. Because I don’t want to see you die. Mormonism is that man trying to put a knife in your back Shem.
Eternal life is a free gift Shem. Jesus died for sinners. He didn’t die for those who think they can do all they can do. No. For those who think they will be saved by grace after all they can do, Jesus will say: depart from me you evildoers.
How can someone who believes they must “do all they can do” believe in Jesus?
Jesus did all he could do. Don’t you get that?
To: “do all you can do” is a rejection of “all Jesus did for you”.
Plain and simple. Those who believe in doing all they can do have rejected all that Jesus did for them.
Shem said: “Shem said: ” Despite all your grand words of love and caring displaces a contempt for us and our faith. ”
My blood boils when you say things like this Shem. It makes me very angry. Am I angry at you? NO!!
I am angry at MORMONISM because MORMONISM teaches you to say things like this to me and to distrust everything I say. It’s an epidemic among “all” Mormons. They all have this disease. Mormonism demonizes Christians. It’s all brainwashing! And it’s intended to keep you in the blind fold and away from your freedom to search for the truth.
For once Shem, I would actually like to see you take the time to really understand our beliefs. JUST ONCE!
“Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance” ~Albert Einstein
Shem said: “I really don’t care what individuals believe. Adam is not our God, and few people actually except that. It isn’t even a majority. So, to justify your deception as ‘members believe it’ is rediculous.
I really can’t stumach you anymore. The lies and deception have become truly nausious.”
Once again Shem, you missed the point. It really doesn’t matter what you think about the Brigham Young Adam god teaching. He taught it, he was supposed to be a prophet, he got it wrong, other LDS “prophets” have been wrong. Also, we have provided you with more than enough proof that Brigham taught Adam was god. How many of his followers at that time believed it and what did it do to them? That is what makes me sick.
Mormons, please don’t put your faith in people. Put your faith in Jesus Christ.
Shem, it disturbs me that you find the Biblical Word of God nauseating.
Your contempt for me does you more harm than it does me. How can you be that secure in your faith if you think a handful of us on here can destroy the LDS faith? You give us too much credit. We know who’s job it is to spread the gospel and we know who’s job it is to convert. I take no credit for the conversion of anyone. All the glory goes to God. Your fear is fueling your feelings Shem. God says repeatedly in the Bible we are not to fear anything, but Him: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:5.
Are you afraid of me or of God. You act like you are afraid of me. Maybe you should be afraid of God.
Dear Sister Pharisee…..ummmm I mean Sister Steph,
who holds your cloak while you stone the prophets?
just curious…..and don’t worry, NO unhallowed hand can stop the work of God, and Shem knows that.
~anne
still not liking or respecting this bunch
Who is God?
Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
‘If you can’t answer a man’s argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names” — Elbert Hubbard'”
Shem said: “I really don’t care what individuals believe. Adam is not our God, and few people actually except that. It isn’t even a majority. So, to justify your deception as ‘members believe it’ is rediculous.
I really can’t stumach you anymore. The lies and deception have become truly nausious.”
Shem! YOUR church is the one being deceptive. These are official LDS publications.
Like Steph, said, that prophet taught it and people believed it. He said he got the message from God. And the LDS Church must hide this truth from you or water it down BECAUSE they teach you that God will never allow his prophets to lead you astray. And the fact of the matter is that you have prophets who contradict each other. Which MEANS that one of those prophets has led you astray. Its a no brainer Shem. Open your eyes.
Anne said: “Dear Sister Pharisee…..ummmm I mean Sister Steph, who holds your cloak while you stone the prophets? just curious…..and don’t worry, NO unhallowed hand can stop the work of God, and Shem knows that. still not liking or respecting this bunch”
Actually, the reality here is that your false “prophets” have stoned themselves and you.
“‘If you can’t answer a man’s argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names” — Elbert Hubbard’”
When one follows a false prophet, resorting to sinning in order to try and win the argument is the only defence they have to support their beliefs.
The dog that yelps the most is the one that got hit.
Mormons tend to be driven more by their feelings about the Mormon Church than by logic and reasonable arguments.
Echo, I think both of them have been convicted.
My prayers are that there are people out there that check this board who don’t contribute who will respond to the true gospel of the Bible, which I have tried to present the best way I could.
I have done so, so now I am not going to come to this board for a while as I have done what I set out to do.
I will say one last time, for now, Mormons, would you be worthy enough to be with Heavenly Father for eternity this day if you happened to leave this earth today?
Because if you are not ready, you will not get another chance once you die. Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.”
The solution? Believe in and trust in the only one who can save you, Jesus Christ, and what He did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day and you can know now, not later, that you can be with Heavenly Father forever and not face the torment of outer darkness so you can be assured now and never be concerned about ever being worthy enough again.
Myself? I know I am not worthy and never will be worthy but the Good News, the real Gospel, is that Jesus Christ is worthy and his grace, not after all I can do but a free gift, is all I need!
Goodbye all for now!
oh, lookee….i can do it too.
“once a “good-fer-nothin”, always a “good-fer-nothin”….Ma Kettle
hahahahahaha
For me, it has been sufficiently demostrated whom Mormons worship. Unfortunatley a series of false prophets have so mis-lead so many that as Jesus revealed:
” But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!”
Mormonism worship a God who claims that sin was actually for our good …. “bad eyes”
Mormonism worship a God who to have been an actual progessed human …”bad eyes”
Mormonism worship (by default) a God that was created ……………. “bad eyes”
Bad eyes produces a whole body full of darkness. Those who remain in darkness will be thrown into outdarkness.Matthew 25:30
” ‘And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ ”
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Shem and Anne…. there is no reward for running interference. Mormonism is that great darkness. Heed Jesus’ alternative
Luke 11:35
See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
your kindergarten eyes CAN NOT SEE the truth.
too bad…your zeal is so misplaced!
All your righteous acts are like filthy rages ….. for those who had the truth and forfeited will find it worse than for those from Sodom.
Matthew 11:24
” But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Romans 5:15-21
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 3:9-20
No One Is Righteous
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Romans 12:11
Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
“Mormonism sees power in ambiguity, strength in ambivalence, solidarity in equivocation, and encouragement in non-officiality. But Christ says, “and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)”
and
“When Jesus said to watch out for false prophets and false teachers, and that we would know them by their fruits, he did not say, “You shall know them by their fruits, but the only fruits you are allowed to consider are binding and official fruits voted on in General Conference for inclusion in the Standard Works.”…
http://blog.mrm.org/2011/10/should-one-limit-consideration-of-mormonism-to-what-minimalists-deem-official-and-binding/
“Mormonism sees power in ambiguity, strength in ambivalence, solidarity in equivocation, and encouragement in non-officiality
Ambiguity defined as…
“1.Uncertainty or inexactness of meaning in language.
2.A lack of decisiveness or commitment resulting from a failure to make a choice between alternatives.”
For more see http://www.google.ca/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=what+is+ambiguity&pbx=1&oq=what+is+ambiguity&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=1734l8109l0l10078l17l11l0l2l2l0l454l2937l2-4.3.2l11l0&biw=1366&bih=543&cad=cbv&sei=Vr2lTs_ZKYTe0QHNq7CUBQ#hl=en&q=ambiguity&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=V72lToWLFIXW0QHvubm1BA&ved=0CBsQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6f46e1678c67dc3f&biw=1366&bih=543
Ambivalence defined as…
.”The state of having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone
The coexistence of opposing attitudes or feelings (such as love and hate) towards a person, object or idea; A state of uncertainty or indecisiveness”
For more see http://www.google.ca/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=what+is+ambivalence&pbx=1&oq=what+is+ambivalence&aq=f&aqi=g4g-v1g-j5&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=297l4797l0l5781l9l6l0l3l3l0l359l1500l2-5.1l9l0&biw=1366&bih=543&cad=cbv&sei=zb2lTpX3HYf50gHyiPXWBA#hl=en&q=ambivalence&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=zr2lTpRFp_LSAYjOjZ4F&ved=0CBsQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6f46e1678c67dc3f&biw=1366&bih=543
Equivocation defined as…
“1.The use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.
2. evasion: a statement that is not literally false but that cleverly avoids an unpleasant truth.
3. Beat around the bush: be deliberately ambiguous or unclear in order to mislead or withhold information”
For more see http://www.google.ca/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=what+is+equivocation&pbx=1&oq=what+is+equivocation&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=2422l2422l0l3907l1l1l0l0l0l0l235l235l2-1l1l0&biw=1366&bih=543&cad=cbv&sei=w76lTv7rDKXg0QHvxcHOBA#hl=en&q=equivocation&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=w76lTqutNaHw0gHbwoyeBQ&ved=0CBsQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6f46e1678c67dc3f&biw=1366&bih=543
For the last time
ECHO
I don’t care if it is official LDS publications either. That in itself means nothing. The Journal of Discourses are the words of the leaders of the church, and as long as they are those words the church will and has the right to publish them. However, publishing them does not make them doctrine, no matter how much our enemies wish to make it so.
For anything to be a doctrine of the church, and thus binding on the membership, it must be accepted as such by the members as a whole. It must be accepted first by the First Presidency, then submitted to the Twelve, then the rest of the general authorities, and lastly tot he membership as a body.
What Brigham Young taught concerning Adam was never submitted, and so is not doctrine, no matter how much Brigham Young believed it personally. The fact that Orson Pratt opposed this doctrine shows that it would never have made it to the membership for ratification, as it never would have been approved by the twelve, and Brigham Young was just fine with this.
In the one place in which he gives the most detailed explanation that I have ever found (in October of 1852) he states that this doctrine is his opinion, and as such can be dismissed or accepted by the members at their discretion. To try and pass it off as doctrine simply because he said it and the church published his words is stupidity in the extreme.
You have been fond of Albert Einstein and his quote that rejection without investigation is the height of ignorance. Well I will add that acceptance without investigation is the height of stupidity. You have accepted what others have declared concerning our doctrine without a full investigation, or logical thought regarding it.
JBR
You have learned nothing, and have no idea as to who we worship. All you can see is what you wish to see, aided by your own prejudices against us. You hear one point, and because we have to be a vile religion, you assume the worst possible belief that can be derived from it.
First, we do not believe that sin is for our benefit, except in the sense of experience. We learn to avoid and concur sin by experiencing what it is. Of course, this is what Christ did in the Atonement; by talking on himself our sins he learned their effects through experience, and has thus become the greatest comfort we can have, for he has experienced everything.
Now, I am assuming that you take this understanding of yours from what has been said concerning the fall. To you, who demonize Adam and his actions that led tot he fall, anyone who approve and especially praises him has to be approving and praising sin and evil. You cannot understand that we do not approve of sin, or of any evil act. But we do acknowledge that one act, though a sin in one, or even most circumstances, is not a sin in others.
Thus, to kill is a sin, but it was not a sin for Samuel to hack King Agag to peaces, or for Abraham to offer up his son as a sacrifice, or for Israel to destroy the heathen nation.
In the same manner, while direct disobedience is usually considered a sin, under the circumstances that existed in the Garden of Eden, and because of the plans of God, Adam and Eve’s act is not counted as sin.
Secondly, God was never a created being, and anyone who claims otherwise is a fool. God has always existed, and is an eternal being. We are also eternal beings, for spirits cannot be created, but exist, and have existed forever. I think you would be more accurate to say that we believe God has a physical body, and this body was created, just as the body of Christ was created in the womb of Mary. But to say that God is a created being is blasphemy in the LDS doctrine.
The only point that you actually get right is that we do believe that God is an exalted man, who had a mortal existence before this one. Now, I understand your rejection of it, as it is a hard doctrine for many to accept. Joseph Smith even stated that few would accept it when he taught it. So, I am just fine with you not believing this.
Just remember that the “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5: 19) If Christ did only what his Father did before him, as he himself testifies, than what did the Father do that enabled Christ to perform the Atonement?
FINAL NOTE
There has been an accusation made that the LDS don’t think logically, or have no reasoning behind their faith. I would just like to point out that the only people who have actually engaged in logical reasoning on this thread have been the LDS members.
The basic reasoning from everyone else has been “This is the truth because this is what we believe; and look, we can throw out a few quotes from the Bible to make us look good.”
There has been no actual logical discussion concerning the wording of the Bible, or the subtleties of language and how it effects meaning. In fact, when I brought up such a logical discussion in regards to John 3: 16-18 I was basically told that since I had a different interpretation I had to be wrong, without any logical reason behind this.
Steph has basically stated that anyone who disagrees with her is wrong, and now she has stated that if you agree with her you can’t possibly have any logic to you beliefs.
Notice the tactics of the non-lds on this thread. They resort to deception, to preemptive attacks, and to diversion. By this last one I refer to the constant introduction of theories and doctrine that have no direct bearing on the discussion, but are used simply to divert away from what is actually being discussed (such as the Adam-God theory). They have yet to actually logically explain anything they have said, but simply assume that if they throw out enough quote everyone will eventually agree with them.
On the other hand, I have, for the most part, tried to explain everything I have stated, including explaining the reason for my interpretations of various Biblical verses as well as other quotes. I have never deceived anyone in regards to what I or my religion teaches, and I have never even attempted to explain the beliefs of others if they had not already been part of the discussion.
Consider this when you think about what is being said.
Shem said: “In the one place in which he gives the most detailed explanation that I have ever found (in October of 1852) he states that this doctrine is his opinion, and as such can be dismissed or accepted by the members at their discretion.””
So you want me to take your word for it? Isn’t it illogical for you to expect me to take your word for it? That’s not the logical thing to do is it. Provide a link with context please. Thanks.
Shem said: “Notice the tactics of the non-lds on this thread. They resort to deception,”
How do you honestly know this? You don’t. It’s pure speculation it’s pure negative assumptions and all Personal attacks. And your speculation and assumptions can be wrong. Had you had any logic and reasoning skills at all, you would realize this and make every effort to avoid it if possible, until you had the facts and you provide those facts cleary and along side of your accusation. An accusation without evidence is garbage. It is Completely illogical.
Have you ever considered the possibility that the LDS Church might be the one deceiving you? You have never even considered that idea at all have you? No you have not.
This is the whole problem with you and your sense of reasoning. You reason that your church is true simply because they teach you it is true and threaten you or blame you if you don’t believe it. That’s all brainwashing. Then your Church demonizes us so that you won’t listen to what we have to say….you say: “Echo is a deciever!” “echo is this bad thing” “Echo is that bad thing” “Echo is bad, bad, bad.”, ” Echo is of the devil” So the demonizing attempts of Mormonism have been very effective at brainwashing you and closing your ears and heart to what we have to say.
You have no logic or sense of reason whatsoever in this regard. I mean the truly logical thing to do would be to keep in the back of your mind that the LDS Church could actually be the one deceiving you here.
Logic dictates that there is a possibilty that we are teaching you the truth and you have believed a lie.
Logic then would lead you to examine both sides fairly and objectively without all the personal subjective attacks you continually resort to without repentance or effort. But NO! Not Shem, he is one very illogical thinking man without any reasoning ability whatsoever. Who took that away from you? Could it be Mormonism!?
Open your eyes Shem!
Shem said:
“John 3: 16-18 I was basically told that since I had a different interpretation I had to be wrong, without any logical reason behind this.
Steph has basically stated that anyone who disagrees with her is wrong, and
now she has stated that if you agree with her you can’t possibly have any logic to you beliefs.” Huh? When did I discuss logic anywhere?
Once again Shem, we believe Biblical scripture is God breathed, it is God’s word. Steph has stated time and time again that anyone who disagrees with God is wrong.
Shem, the logic behind John 3:16-18 is looking you in the face, take it at face value, there is nothing to interpret or change there.
“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5: 19) If Christ did only what his Father did before him, as he himself testifies, than
what did the Father do that enabled Christ to perform the Atonement?
The Father revealed to the Son his plans and purposes, his will to be carried out by Christ. As for the rest of what you are trying to say, this verse doesn’t have anything to do with the idea that God was a man. In these passages of scripture Jesus is showing the Jews that He has authority from God to judge and raise the dead. Authority that the Jews only believed God alone had. Jesus is talking about his dependency on the Father, in other words, He judges only as he hears from the Father, which makes his judgement fair.
Tell me Shem, your church teaches this….”God will not allow the prophets to lead you astray”
The Bible says: “Beware of false prophets, they come to you in sheep’s clothing but inside they are ravening wolves”
Logic dictates that God will indeed allow prophets to lead you astray!
Echo,
You continue to tell us that what we believe is a lie. what would your posture be if I tried to tell you that you are an alien? you are from another planet and YOU have been brainwashed to believe otherwise….You would tell me to take a hike! (with love, or course)
Shem and I KNOW that the Gospel is true. We are not simply TOLD that it is true, WE KNOW IT.
We have both had numerous experiences, answers to prayers, personal revelations, priesthood healings, promptings, and MUCH, MUCH more.
YOU CANNOT KNOW what we know in our hearts. WHY, O, WHY do you guys think you KNOW what is in our hearts? WHY do you THINK you KNOW what we KNOW?????
Steph is an apostate. She has lost the spirit, broken her covenants and DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ACTIVE, COVENANT KEEPING, FAITHFUL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH!!
Would YOU ask your enemy to represent you to the world and tell the world what you believe or think?
NO!
Steph has NO CLUE. Her experience (from her lame attempts to explain what we believe) in the Church was very limited. She does not represent us, nor can she relate to active members who still have the Spirit to direct them!
I repeat: NO unhallowed hand can stop this work! and believe me, we are NOT worried about your influence on the world. WE have the Lord and His true, restored Gospel on our side!
and believe it or not….this is said with love!! :)
~Anne
I came across a quote that reminded me of Steph:
“some people know just enough scripture to be annoying, but not enough to be transformed”
Phillip Gulley
that is an ode to all of Steph’s scripture quotations!
Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Galatians 4:16
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Anne said: “You continue to tell us that what we believe is a lie. what would your posture be if I tried to tell you that you are an alien? you are from another planet and YOU have been brainwashed to believe otherwise….You would tell me to take a hike! (with love, or course)”
If you told me I believed a lie (which you have) and if that was the truth,. I would respect you for telling me that I believe in a lie. I would also want and expect you to lovingly and patiently guide me into the truth that you have that you think I am so blind to. (Not beat me over the head continually with personal insults, mocking, ridicule and condescension nor judging my motives to be evil all the while)
Anne said: “Shem and I KNOW that the Gospel is true. We are not simply TOLD that it is true, WE KNOW IT. We have both had numerous experiences, answers to prayers, personal revelations, priesthood healings, promptings, and MUCH, MUCH more”
That’s all fine Anne, but the Bible says that there are counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. The Bible also teaches that God sends a “powerful delusion” to deceive those who refused to love the truth. Everything you have experienced could be part of that “powerful delusion” or Satan can be deceiving you through counterfeit miracles’, signs and wonders. So to say you “KNOW” it is true for these reasons, isn’t at all convincing to me. You need something MORE than that to claim that your church is TRUE. What else have you got?
Anne said: “Steph is an apostate. She has lost the spirit, broken her covenants and DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ACTIVE, COVENANT KEEPING, FAITHFUL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH!!”
Anne, I don’t mean to be rude to you or to hurt your feelings or anything, but Steph has obeyed the commandments a whole lot better than you have. In fact, I have yet to see you obey the commandments. Jesus said: Can people pick grapes from a thistle? Jesus taught that we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. I can only conclude then from the way you treat us, that you truly hate yourself. We don’t hate you though. We would like to be your friend if you would only believe that. Jesus loved to be friends with sinners just like you and me. :)
I think Steph speaks volumes about the LDS Church. Stop to think for one minute that maybe, JUST MAYBE, Steph left the LDS Church for good and Godly reasons. Has that thought ever crossed your mind? That maybe, JUST MAYBE God rescued Steph from your false Church and maybe he wants to rescue you too?
Anne said: “Would YOU ask your enemy to represent you to the world and tell the world what you believe or think? NO!”
As we have said so many times. The LDS are very welcome here and we welcome them telling us what they believe and they are very welcome to provide LDS links etc. However, false teaching needs to be exposed in order to rescue people from them and generally folks on the inside of a church that teaches false teachings don’t expose their own false teachings. Not only that, but many, like you, are unwilling to even examine the facts in case they have believed a lie. Sad, but the Pharisees were like that too.
After I said the following on
October 24, 2011 at 2:57 am
“My prayers are that there are people out there that check this board who don’t contribute who will respond to the true gospel of the Bible, which I have tried to present the best way I could.
I have done so, so now I am not going to come to this board for a while as I have done what I set out to do.
I will say one last time, for now, Mormons, would you be worthy enough to be with Heavenly Father for eternity this day if you happened to leave this earth today?
Because if you are not ready, you will not get another chance once you die. Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.”
The solution? Believe in and trust in the only one who can save you, Jesus Christ, and what He did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day and you can know now, not later, that you can be with Heavenly Father forever and not face the torment of outer darkness so you can be assured now and never be concerned about ever being worthy enough again.
Myself? I know I am not worthy and never will be worthy but the Good News, the real Gospel, is that Jesus Christ is worthy and his grace, not after all I can do but a free gift, is all I need!”
Goodbye all for now!”
This the response I got from Anne on October 24, 2011 at 4:17 am
‘oh, lookee….i can do it too.
“once a “good-fer-nothin”, always a “good-fer-nothin”….Ma Kettle
hahahahahaha”
I have never once in the entire time i have participated in this board ever said anything personal about anyone here so why am I wasting my time discussing anything with someone who has said she doesn’t like or respect any of us here and who proved that with such hateful comments?
So yes, it is time for a break from this board.
“I have never once in the entire time i have participated in this board ever said anything personal about anyone here so why am I wasting my time discussing anything with someone who has said she doesn’t like or respect any of us here and who proved that with such hateful comments?”
Kent,
I don’t think you are wasting your time, sir. Annemckee’s hateful posts demonstrate just how badly she needs to not only come to grasp with her own sinfulness, but of the Forgiveness won for us through our Lord Christ. No, she does not demonstrate love or respect, but she does demonstrate her need to learn of the truly unconditional love that God has for us.
Annemckee,
Do you think you are showing love to your neighbor? (Matthew 22:39) You call Steph your “enemy” because she left your church. Are you showing her love?
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matthew 5:44)
Here is the difference between you and Steph. Steph is here because she believes that you are in danger of spending eternity in the outer darkness. You may take everything she says to be an attack or as offensive to your faith, but she is doing it for your well-being. What I have seen from you is ridicule and mockery and even stooping to the point that you imply that she is your enemy. You each think the same terrible thing will happen to each other, yet one of you shows concern, the other seems to be satisfied.
Mormonism Research Ministry:
Isn’t it curious that all of the biblical proof texts Mormons like to reference are assumed to be translated correctly, yet whenever a biblical passage conflicts with Mormon teaching, that translation can’t be trusted?
Ephesians 6:10-19
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.
Ephesians 1:17
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Either Steph is an apostate (an enemy to God) or she was a social mormon….either way she does not speak for the church or for what I believe!! she simply is NOT credible as an “ex-Mormon”. (IF she ever had a witness by the Holy Ghost, then she is now a daughter of perdition…..if she joined the Church for the social aspects, then she NEVER KNEW anything!)
I am an “ex-Methodist” and you discount everything I say! You aren’t much interested in MY conversion!!
my “ma kettle” comment was a joke! it was as relevant as all the other dumb quotations on this blog. just spouting off words does not make it true!!! why do I care what einstein, or Mark Twain or some other nobody says???? who cares!! (the one that got the biggest laugh was the “truth doesn’t run interference, truth just speaks…..hahahahahahaha) the sad part is IDIOTS speak, IGNORANT people speak and so forth….just look at the newspaper or listen to the news (or OBAMA)!
We believe in the Bible, too. So, having all the Bible quotes “thrown” at us is ridiculous! WE believe it too!
Bottom line:
WE HAVE SOMETHING YOU DON’T HAVE!
YOU CANNOT ACCURATELY COMMENT ON IT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT!
You also all have some sort of complex that you take EVERYTHING so personally!
I dislike all this blog stands for because I believe it is inspired by the Devil! Sorry if I don’t feel inclined to be “nicey, nicey” all the time to people who are attacking my Lord and my faith. I don’t buy Steph’s “holier than thou” attitude. I am at least honest with my feelings.
She has hurled plenty of insults, starting with her very first post on this thread….but everyone forgives poor Steph because Anne is so rude. Anne is TRUTHFUL and ALSO interested in the welfare of everyone on this blog.
anne
Steph,
Hope you are enjoying your trip through the topical guide!
Shem…
One could have the same opinion as yours:
.
1) You only care to see what you want to see
2) You have not learned anything
3) I don’t care if you feel you have greater insight than Brigham Young … that’s besides the point
4) I don’t care if you want to mislead the novice about the insignificance of the words of the leaders of the LDS …..church has
.
God’s plan doesn’t include agency on the human’s part. He didn’t create an mine field for human’s to make their way through.
So now you want people to believe that you always existed forever. Really?
………. What’s the purpose of heavenly marriages then ….
………. What is your heavenly wives going to do if they don’t get pregnant
………. So when you get to become God of your planet, all those spirit children will always been there?
So in another words, your spirit children are waiting for you to get your act together …
…………………… like you did with Heavenly Father
That’s a mean trick by God isn’t
……. to assign them you while they wait their assignment for some planet you’ll eventually get
…….Or is the alternative to while your spirit children wait for you, you become more like what Jesus is currently
………………… Not married
……………….. Fatherless
………………. but at least Jesus has got the title of “god”
in either case, your wives are going to be in for the shock for the rest of their existence.
If you’re as loving as you seem to be, why not tell your wives to look for someone who can do all you can do quicker…………………… or can’t you think of anybody?
I feel sorry for you Anne… you (and possibly the other sister wives) already have the spirit children awaiting.
Imagine all this time you’ll be sharing this one husband who might as well be sterile.
If I were you, I would figure out how to get a planet of your own and run an adoption agency.
“You aren’t much interested in MY conversion!!”
Sure I am Annemckee! I want the same thing that God wants, for you to spend eternity with Him in Heaven, not outer darkness. The problem is, your religion demands perfectness. Are you acting perfectly? Have you repented for not loving your enemies?
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matthew 5:44)
Which times have you repented? How many times have you repented of this sin? Was it a true repentance?
Anne said: “Either Steph is an apostate (an enemy to God) or she was a social mormon”
How can she be an enemy to God? She is following Jesus Christ. Don’t you think that Jesus Christ exists outside of the LDS Church?
Echo,
IF Steph had a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Gospel is true, and she DENIED it, then she is a daughter of perdition.
even the devil knows that Jesus is the Christ.
~anne
JBR,
wow, did some handsome LDS guy steal away your girlfriend in High School? why are you so vindictive?
why the venom?
Oh, and in case you didn’t know….Abraham lived the law of plural marriage, too. So did other prophets of God.
and, IF you didn’t know…..the law is not in force now. so your cheeky little comment is as ridiculous as it is snotty.
HOPEFULLY, all the lily-white’s on this blog took note that JBR was pretty snotty to both Shem and I. Maybe the finger pointing will turn his way??
don’t worry, I am not holding my breath. And, interestingly enough, I am not one bit offended. But, I wonder how the Lord feels to have you mock his plan?
I can give as good as I get. (or in this case, “get as good as i give”)
~anne
(smiling, happy, un-offended, Anne)
Anne said: “Echo, IF Steph had a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Gospel is true, and she DENIED it, then she is a daughter of perdition. even the devil knows that Jesus is the Christ. ”
Anne, what if Steph’s “witness from the Holy Ghost that the Gospel [of Mormonism] is true” was from the devil? What if THAT FACT was revealled to her by the True Holy Ghost?
Anne said: “and, IF you didn’t know…..the law is not in force now. so your cheeky little comment is as ridiculous as it is snotty.”
Would you be willing to share your husband with other women?
The LDS scriptures still contain statements teaching and justifying plural marriage as a divinely authorized institution—even stating that it is “an everlasting covenant” and that those who reject it will be “damned” (D&C 131:2-4; 132:1-6, 37-39, 60-66).
In the LDS Journal of Discourses are the following…
In Volume 11:
The only men who become Gods must practice polygamy (p.269).
Curse of God on those who dictate against polygamy (p.211).
Anne, don’t even try to make assumptions about me. You are wrong on both counts. You will never get my story right so quit trying. It is because of God and people just like you that I am saved by His grace and walking in the light. Praise God for that!
Being a Methodist doesn’t make you a saved Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car.
Anne is a good example of what the LDS church does to people. Her behavior is typical. Anne, I gave you enough rope and you have hung yourself with it.
I am enjoying it very much. I love God’s word! I think you have demonstrated your contempt for it well enough which makes me wish the LDS church would quit hiding behind it in their attempt to look normal.
accepting God’s commandments is a part of the deal! duh.
and remember what Shem told you about the Journal of Discourses??? nice reading, but not doctrine.
AND the devil cannot impersonate the Holy Ghost. IF Steph ever had the witness of the Holy Ghost and THEN denied it, she is in deep doo doo.
anne
Brother and Sisters in Christ, I have just returned from Bible study where I spoke with another ex mormon in Christ who told me she knows of many LDS members leaving the church and turning to Christ. God is working in the land of the lost (UT). Keep on keeping on……….
Anne, remember the doxology?
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/p/r/praisegf.htm
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
The devil most certainly can impersonate the Holy Ghost.
Doctrine and Covenants is not doctrine?
“accepting God’s commandments is a part of the deal! duh.”
Annemckee,
There is a difference between accepting God’s commandments and what He actually says, which is to do them all flawlessly. Can you do this? Are you?
When I finally realized that I could not, it was such a relief. Acknowledging my imperfections and being honest with myself and God, really took the weight of years of deception and lies off my chest, I could finally be true about who I was, and finally see what love God had for me to do what He did for me. Living the life I could not, and then crediting His righteousness to me personally.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
Who’s in doo doo? You are the one trying to desecrate God’s temple!
Doctrine and Covenants is not doctrine?
LOL!!!!!! Reckon what they will say “doctrine” means?
“When I finally realized that I could not, it was such a relief. Acknowledging my imperfections and being honest with myself and God, really took the weight of years of deception and lies off my chest, I could finally be true about who I was, and finally see what love God had for me to do what He did for me. Living the life I could not, and then crediting His righteousness to me personally.”
AMEN! How great it is that God will sanctify me!
“AND the devil cannot impersonate the Holy Ghost.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
If you would take a trip through the “topical guide” you would know this.
“Oh, and in case you didn’t know….Abraham lived the law of plural marriage, too. So did other prophets of God.”
Many people recall a few Old Testament instances of plural wives, and assume that God sanctioned polygamy. That assumption is absolutely false! God has never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He FORBADE IT, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written STATUTE!
Deuteronomy 17:17
17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray.
God only took only 1 rib from Adam, not more of his ribs to make a harem.
Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, lived, he never married any other woman. Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous SIN.
Jesus said: “Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female?” “And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” Notice, a man shall cleave to his WIFE — not wives. And they TWO — not he and several wives — shall be one flesh.
“What therefore GOD hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Mat. 19:4-6). It is what GOD joins together: the definition of MARRIAGE. God does not join together one man with plural women! Any woman a man may “marry” according to man’s codes, in addition to the wife GOD joined him to, is NOT his wife, so long as his real wife lives. Any additional women, whether in polygamy, or by divorce, is plain ADULTERY! GOD never joins the second, let alone the additional “wives.” They are NOT truly wives — they are adulteresses, and the man becomes an adulterer. THIS BREAKS GOD’S LAW. IT IS SIN.
And, remember, God gave this absolute command regarding future kings of Israel — telling them they must not do as the pagan nations around them (whose kings had their harems): “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself!” Saul, Israel’s first king, DISOBEYED that command. He let demons take hold of him.
God deposed him, and put David in his place. David started out in polygamy, but God punished him. HE REPENTED thoroughly, and he finished his reign with his only living wife. Solomon finished his life in polygamy and idolatry — and God, in punishment, took the KINGDOM away from his son, Rehoboam.
GOD DID NOT CONDONE POLYGAMY! He PUNISHED those who practiced it! It was always SIN! It is SIN today! Hosea and other prophets constantly dwell upon the thought of monogamous marriage as being a symbol of the union of God and His people, and denounce idolatry as unfaithfulness to this spiritual marriage tie.
“A bishop [elder, overseer, preacher, minister] must be blameless, the husband of ONE wife” (I Tim. 3:2). Likewise, a man may not even be a deacon if he has more than one wife (verse 12).
I don’t think Joseph Smith “took a trip through the topical guide”.
I now crown thee Queen of Irrelevance! oh, and Queen of the Topical Guide!