A common reaction to many biblical doctrines is that they are not logical and thus need to be modified or otherwise rejected. One doctrine that is often dismissed in that way is the teaching that God grants eternal life freely to people without basing that on any merit on the people involved. That just doesn’t make any sense to human reason.
But not only is that what the Bible teaches, it also acknowledges that we won’t be able to understand it logically. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Significantly the Lord says that in the context of his abundantly pardoning us. Talk about a wide gap. God’s thoughts are so far beyond us that it is like the distance between heaven and earth. Obviously, they are not bound by the limitations of human logic.
Paul says the same thing in his letter to the Romans. “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out” (Romans 11:33). Notice the word “unsearchable”. His judgments and his ways are again far beyond the puny limitations of human logic. They just don’t make sense to us.
In his love, he gave us a glimpse of his wonderful ways in the Bible. Even those glimpses, such as the one he gives us when he tells us that he gives people eternal life freely, are so marvelous that they boggle our minds. But here’s the important point. Even though we can’t fathom them, we can believe them. We can believe them, not because we understand them, but because he has revealed them to us. In fact, we could go even a step further. If we describe those high truths in such a way that make sense to us, then we have corrupted them. That explanation can’t be right because the fact is that they are way beyond us. They are unsearchable. Period. As one of my college professors use to say: “You are beginning to understand when you understand that you can’t understand.”
That is why when people respond to biblical teaching with a logical argument I don’t even bother responding. They are using something that doesn’t apply. We can’t fit God’s great thoughts into our little minds. The argument that it doesn’t make sense is an invalid argument from the get go.
Yes, I know that the teaching that God is one being but three separate and distinct persons doesn’t make sense. 1+1+1=1 is not the math I learned. But, when it comes to the nature of God that is what he has revealed. Therefore I believe it. More than that. I rejoice in it. Because that is just another indicator of how truly awesome God is – how he is vastly superior to me. So much so that I can’t understand him.
The flip side of that equation is also important. When people reject biblical truths because they aren’t logical, they have placed human reason above divine revelation thus making reason and logic a god. Making logic the standard for accepting truth is just as much an act of idolatry as the worshipping of Baal in the Old Testament. It is an affront to the Lord and something he hates.
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1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Eternal life is given freely and without conditions attached. That rubs against all human logic which is why it is “foolishness” to those who are perishing.
Isaiah 1: 18
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord”
I think this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. I do not mean this personally, and I have heard it from many people. In fact, one women told me strait out that if it did seem reasonable she would reject it, as that would mean it was not from God.
Now, I know there are those that put mortal logic above the revealed word of God. They are the ones who reject the divine origin of the Bible, are most commonly atheists who adhere to the false doctrines of evolution and the like.
Now, I know this was written to those who try to explain the bible in a reasonable way, while still accepting its divine origin, and that is what really baffles me. It is true that both Isaiah and Paul tell us that the knowledge, wisdom, and judgments of God are far beyond our understanding. what I do not understand is how this translates into “God and his ways are not reasonable or logical to mortal minds.” Granted, it is a possible understanding, but not the most likely meaning. After all, the ways of an Medical Doctor are far beyond my understanding, but they are still logical.
Logic is logic and truth is truth. It doesn’t matter where they come from, this is simply the case.
God’s ways are above ours because he has a different perspective, and a wider knowledge of things. Take the calling of Paul. Ananias didn’t understand, because his perspective of Paul was that he was one who persecuted the saints: he was an enemy. But God knew Paul’s true character and called him because he knew what he would do.
God does many things that we will never understand until we have the same perspective as him, and have the understanding that he has. That does not mean his actions are not logical; only that we lack sufficient information to understand the logic behind it.
By this very same argument, you cannot understand anything in the Bible, because ALL of it is of God. Why in the world are there so many books, so many scriptures in the Bible? If all that we were to know was that God sent His son, then the Bible would consist of ONE page. that page would read “ACCEPT CHRIST OR DIE!!” we are to gain an understanding of God, even if that understanding is that He is beyond us (or to acknowledge that he is perfect and we are not until we are saved through him, and then we can remain that way). These scriptures are so that we CAN understand, not so that we be so confounded that all we are left with would be my aforementioned page.
What you are failing to see is that some of this IS completely LOGICAL. I bring in the argument of evolution VS God. Through logic you can see that there is no way in any sense that living, thinking organisms evolved from something that had no life. There must needs be a God to facilitate that transition. this is a LOGICAL conclusion, that even one of the greatest atheists have come to realize.. and as such, this person is no longer an atheist but an agnostic.
God has given unto us plainness because we cannot understand Him or His grace. We CAN understand His plainness, because it was given to us for our benefit.
also, to Mark on this very specific Blog, i direct this post entirely to you.
I want to openly state that this is both a sneaky and underhanded way of responding to and entire debate. you have used your blog to propagate your beliefs.
and i quote you here:
That is why when people respond to biblical teaching with a logical argument I don’t even bother responding.”
THIS blog IS a response to an entire debate on your previous blog, and to deny this would be wrong. This specific blog should not have been started, as there are people that only read the blog itself, and not the replies. as such, this becomes unfair to anyone that posted on the previous blog, or even this blog for that matter.
If i remember correctly, you said this blog was to facilitate open talks between the two houses (Christianity and LDS). you have taken something that was to be genuine and changed into what you wanted as an outcome.
Hi Josh:
This is not a response to a particular debate on a previous post. It’s bigger than that. It is talking about two entirely different approaches to the Bible. Theologians have talked about the ministerial and magisterial use of reason for centuries. That is what this post is about.
I
Then to continue, I want to extract your belief process.
First, you can NOT understand God. Correct?
IF true, you can NOT understand Christ, for as you say, he is God. And you also can NOT understand the Holy Ghost, for he as well is God.
Now, one must CHOOSE to come to Christ. If we can NOT understand , we can NOT choose.
Now, regardless of whether the Holy Spirit is or is not God, we both believe that you can be filled with the Holy Ghost. Obviously the Holy Ghost can understand God, but you can NOT.
I ask in all ernesty then who has made YOUR choice to come unto Christ. Was it you or did the Holy Ghost.
IF the Holy Gjost made this choice (He would have had to, because you can not understand that God wants you to come back to Him), then our entire existence on this earth is for nothing. God is choosong who returns to Him, and we mean absolutely nothing
MARK
It is not a response to a specific debate. What it is is a means of negating any actual debate that may arise. I agree with Josh, it is sneaky and underhanded, but the intent is not what he seems to think.
Also, I have one other point to make.
John 17: 3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
You say that “Even though we can’t fathom them, we can believe them.” and “that [you] can’t understand him.” If this were true than you could never really know God, for you cannot know what you cannot understand. As such you have no hope of eternal life, for such is to know God.
I do not reject your doctrine merely because it is illogical in itself. I reject it because it is an illogical interpretation of the Bible, for the Bible itself contradicts it over and over again. I will reject any theology that contradicts itself.
Josh:
What did Jesus say? “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mt. 22;14) That seems pretty plain to me. This is also reflected in one of the common titles for believers, namely, “the elect”.
Millions of Christians reflect this by confessing: ‘I believe that I cannot by my own thinking or choosing believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him. But the Holy Ghost has called me be the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.”
My human reason rebels against this. It screams in agony to reconcile the following facts: the Bible say that God loves everybody and Jesus died for everybody but he chooses some and still claims that God is just.
The fact that Jesus died for everybody demonstrates that we mean absolutely everything to God. Yes, I realize that that doesn’t make sense logically. But that is what the Bible says. As I originally stated: his ways are far above our ways.
Jesus did not die for everybody if he is unwilling to accept everybody. By this definition, he died for a select few. This is in stark contrast to what the Bible truly teaches, which is Christ died for EVERYONE.
Some of you truly have a problem with language in general… First such a horrid understand of US, and now to be able to understand EVERYONE… You can not even understand simple words, and you hope to understand scripture..
I am not saying everyone will accept hrists atonement, I am saying Christ didnt just do it for an “elite” group as you are trying to say.
If I am not mistaken, Jehovas witnesses believe only a certain number of people (100,000?) will go to heaven. Are you a part of this group?
Josh:
I said Jesus died for everybody. I never said Jesus died for an elite group. But I also said that we can’t understand this. In fact, I said our human reason screams in agony trying to reconcile those facts.
MARK
Yes, your argument is basically: I believe two contradictory statements, but since I believe God is beyond reason I am okay with that.
What you actually said is this: Christ died for everyone, but that action will only benefit an elite group, which makes no sense but you accept it because it is what you believe.
The LDS responses here plainly show just how much the LDS do not understand Biblical scripture or teaching. I totally get what Mark has said and he has not been deceptive at all. I think it is the LDS folks who are the deceptive ones. They come off sounding very Christian in what they are trying to portray Mormonism to be, but I have spoken with more than my fair share of Mormons who have NO clue what the LDS church truly teaches or that Jesus has anything at all to do with their salvation. They think they are saved because they are LDS, go to church every Sunday, keep up with their church callings, and are basically good moral people. Sneaky and underhanded is sending LDS missionaries out with Christian terminology and a Book of Mormon that contains absolutely nothing about LDS doctrine/teaching, getting their converts to be baptized into the church and then leaving them to figure out the nitty gritty of it all. The last LDS missionary that came to my door actually had the nerve to tell me we believe the same things. NOT!! Who is doing the deceiving here?
Colossians 2:8
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Choose,
You see absoluetly nothing wrong with starting a new blog while this very blog is already in discussion regarding 2nephi?
You see nothing wrong with saying that Christ died for everyone, but we cannot understand this? How hard is it to understand that Christ died for everyone? How hard is it to see that it is our choice to accept Christ?
I am telling you what the LDS church teaches, and you are calling me a liar.
As to the missionaries saying that you both believe the same thing, Thy are refering to Christs atonement. They are not saying that you believe in Temple work, they are saying “Oh how great the mercies.of Christ!”
As to colossians: lets discuss which of these two beliefs is hollow (or empty). One that brings into view the eternities and describes what we are going to be doing after death, or one that says we came to earth merely so God could decide some of us are okay to come back, where the story has no beginning, or story of the premortal existence, very little middle, and no idea what happens after we we die. That sounds pretty hollow to me. I choose the one with the COMPLETE story, not the one full of holes
Josh:
It’s Mark’s blog, he certainly can start a new blog on anything he wants to blog on at anytime he wants to whether you like it or not. You do not get to be in control of Mark’s blog. LDS control does not work outside of the LDS church.
Show me where I called you a liar. By not addressing LDS requirements that apply to “after all we can do” and emphasizing similarities with Biblical Christianity, I am calling you a deceiver.
Since you were not at my door, you have no idea what the missionaries said to me. I can tell you one of the words they tried to use with me was grace. LDS “grace” is NOT Biblical “grace”. They said nothing of Christ’s atonement, but made it clear that I needed to believe Joseph Smiths account and the Book of Mormon.
I know what the LDS church teaches. The LDS church does not teach salvation by grace through faith. The LDS church teaches that the LDS church has authority, that I must be LDS, that I must participate in LDS requirements, etc. However, I have yet to see any LDS person who posts on this site discuss any of these requirements as being important in any way shape or form. What I have seen is the LDS people who post to this site play on Christian teachings and go out of their way to take the emphasis off of Mormon works. Similarities with Christian teachings have been presented, but the major differences have been omitted. Mormonism is a works based religion and I have yet to see any LDS person come out and acknowledge this fact as is the case in the previous post on 2 Nephi (and other posts) where the LDS went out of their way to tell us that we really do not understand what “after all we can do” really means. I can assure you that I have read enough LDS publications to fully understand exactly what “after all we can do” means.
You want us to believe this is all about logic. That there is no logic behind the trinity for which there are plenty of verses that point to the deity of Christ, but you believe in an LDS system that is completely illogical when it comes to evidence i.e. falsehoods in the Book of Mormon ~ http://irr.org/mit/smithsonian.html.
I’ll tell you what is hollow. Having a conversation with a grown LDS lady who has no idea that Jesus had anything to do with her salvation at all. That is hollow. Her response to being told about Jesus was angry dismay and a complete inability to comprehend that Jesus had anything at all to do with it. She knew plenty about Joseph Smith and the “church” though.
Why do you need to know what you are going to be doing after death? I don’t need to fill in the blanks in order to make myself feel comfortable with death and what happens next. I walk with Christ and will go to heaven when I die which is all I need to know and is good enough for me. I really don’t think God is all that concerned about me trying to keep my family together for eternity, if He were, He would have said so. Don’t you think it odd that there is no mention of keeping families together forever in the Bible. Thousands of years and no emphasis on that concept at all. Is that logical?
God cares more about your character than your comfort. To me, Mormonism is more about making people feel comfortable with the unknown.
And regarding this: “What you actually said is this: Christ died for everyone, but that action will only benefit an elite group, which makes no sense but you accept it because it is what you believe.” ~Shem
I understand exactly what Mark is saying and can say that it went right over your heads. Neither one of you has a clue what he is talking about which again illustrates your lack of true Biblical understanding.
Again, never go to people who believe the Bible is corrupt for Biblical understanding.
Choose
“22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” Matthew 6:22-23. I used the KJV above for the LDS readers but actually I think the NIV (1984) says it better: 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
It is indeed a great darkness when when to defend the LDS doctrine 1. God must be confined to limits of human reason, 2. every passage that plainly says we are justified by faith not by works really doesn’t actually mean that. and 3 that Jesus’ forgiveness is conditional, that He won your salvation but you still might not be forgiven, and that it is possible to be perfect. The latest one I replied to said “Jesus just doesn’t just give away forgiveness.”
David
Choose
Sorry for to double post my internet connection was about to time out. At any rate, what is so sad is how hard they work without actually trusting in Jesus. I can’t imagine the burden it must be to defend a belief that it is totally possible to be perfect. I was stunned when I read a reply when I asked an LDS blogger if it were possible for Jesus to know of some way in which he (the LDS blogger) still fell short of perfection that he couldn’t think of himself and he said, quite adamantly “No.” He knows his own sins and what he has do exactly as much as Jesus. All I could do was sigh.
David
Choose, you have said:
“However, I have yet to see any LDS person who posts on this site discuss any of these requirements as being important in any way shape or form”
Our emphasis was to show you through the Bible what must be done, since you completely deny BoM teachings.
to your authority questions, i have been waiting a long time for this :)
How exactly does a Christian Preacher teach with any kind of authority?
1.) He paid to go to school and had them give him a piece of paper saying he is learned enough to teach.
Acts 8 20-22 “20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. ”
2.) He is called of God.
Now, to me, this means that God “speaks” to the person. This means this person is a prophet, in at least the barest of views. So, now you are telling me that you believe A prophet is on this earth, but are unwilling to accept that there was another? Your prophet is not calling cities to repentance, but merely your congregation? this is quite a selfish Preacher, only calling to repentance those who will welcome him openly.
3.) He is ordained a priest, from someone before him who was a priest.
This is impossible, unless a priest came from the dead and re-administered said “priesthood” to your Preacher, or God/Christ himself would have had to come down and give your Preacher authority… Oh wait, thats what Joseph said happened… your Preacher most certainly cant claim this, because he would be to much like Joseph Smith.
After all the apostles were dead, there was a period know as APOSTASY. that meant that no one was qualified to do the work we needed to be “saved” (LIKE BAPTISMS). Christ did NOT go to some RANDOM person to be baptized, he went to someone HOLDING AUTHORITY TO BAPTIZE.
How does your Preacher baptize anyone? again, 1 of my 3 listed way must be followed.. I CANNOT go to a bum off the street and have him baptize me. it does not work like that. it never has, it never will. I am not calling preachers bums either. for they do teach good works. they just do so without proper authority.
as to what your Preachers do, requiring Tithes to pay for their lifestyles (whether this be a humble life, or a rich life)
Acts 20:33 answers that.. “I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing.”
Ephesians 1:10 “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”
Now, lets look at the authority the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints claims.
We claim that #3 did in fact happen. We claim that we hold the AUTHORITY to baptize that Christ himself viewed as so VERY IMPORTANT.
Their “preachers”, do they get some of that lovely tithing money that “christian” preachers do?
NO. they do not. We go to our jobs like every other human on the face of the earth. We dont covet anyone elses silver or gold or clothing as “preachers” (there are those that have nice things, and have worked very hard for them. there are also those who covet in general. my point here is not their judgement, it is the office of preacher and the preachers gold Cadillac with 24″ rims that i am attempting to discuss)
We claim that this is the “DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES” the Ephesians is talking about.
We claim that all things have been gathered together (wait…. families, gathered together… where has that been asked before..) and choose said “Don’t you think it odd that there is no mention of keeping families together forever in the Bible” What exactly is all things referring to here Choose? maybe all the earthly priesthoods? maybe families? maybe lost, SIMPLE truths? maybe you think it just means the socks that keep getting lost in the dryer??? (no this isnt a stab, merely an attempt at humor, please receive it as such).
I read ALL things in Christ and am uplifted.
Where do we get the right to say families can be together forever? what a load of horse manure right? oh, wait:
Matthew 18:18 “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
there is no way that really means we can bind our families together… you are misinterpreting it… “WHATSOEVER ye shall bind on earth SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN”
but thats not what i want to believe, cause i have been taught all my life “TILL DEATH DO YOU PART”, or better yet, i want a divorce.. this stuff is just to hard
Lets see what Mark 10 has to say…
4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Lets read #9 again shall we, with emphasis, because i like screaming in caps :)
9 WHAT THEREFORE GOD HATH JOINED TOGETHER, LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER.
(eternal families anyone?)
And to this Choose: “God cares more about your character than your comfort. To me, Mormonism is more about making people feel comfortable with the unknown.”
I say make Half of the covenants that i have and “live comfortable.” Our way is not the easiest on this earth, for sin is VERY easy, and to always keep our covenants is not. If it were easy to keep them, it would not be a challenge, and this life would have no purpose. we would be, and then we wouldnt.
And to this Choose: “Neither one of you has a clue what he is talking about which again illustrates your lack of true Biblical understanding.” According to Mark, there is no Biblical understand, because the Bible is from God, and God is not able to be understood.So, either
A.) you agree with mark, and God is not understandable, OR
B.) you disagree with mark and you do have a Biblical understanding
Which is it?
And to David, Christ has given us everything we need to return to him.
How does that make it impossible for me to know what i must do?
David,
I shall ask it a different way.
Are you trying to imply that Christ, when he returns to this earth, is going to have NEW rules for us to live by?
I would that you would pay close attention with this next quote. Apostles did not just “have power”…
Mark 3:
13And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.
14And he ORDAINED twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils
It wasnt just some happy go lucky group, there was order and authority given unto man from God. This is the (same type of) authority and ordination I claim.
Shem said: “What you actually said is this: Christ died for everyone, but that action will only benefit an elite group, which makes no sense but you accept it because it is what you believe.”
No that’s wrong, Mark accepts exactly what the Bible says. You don’t.
You refuse to accept what the Bible says because it goes against your logic. Logic is your god.
Shem said: “Yes, your argument is basically: I believe two contradictory statements, but since I believe God is beyond reason I am okay with that.”
Shem, until you are willing to admit that God might be a whole lot smarter than you are, you will never understand any truth in the scriptures. The Bible is a sealed book for you. God’s ways are not illogical to him (God), only to you.
The place to begin understanding anything biblical and logical in God’s eyes is to lay down your god of logic and let God speak even if it contradicts your logic, then believe those words even if they contradict one another in your mind.
It is only then that God can teach you anything.
Why do you think Mormonism continually claims that the Bible has many discrepancies and is not perfect?
It’s because Mormonism has false teachings and they would rather say the fault is with the bible rather than admitting their teachings are false.
Why do Mormons always say: “how can we know which interpretation of the Bible is the correct one?” My answer…you will know you have the correct interpretation when the Bible no longer has any discrepancies and is found to be perfect as a direct result of all that you believe.
“The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect” a website :) i hope you enjoy it
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Calvinism/limited_atonement.htm
And i want to point out the above website is most definitely NOT LDS in any way, shape or form!
Oh SNAP!
Josh, As Mark has stated twice in this thread, we believe that Christ died for everyone. We don’t believe he died just for the elect.
Josh, I’m going to say it again, no Christian is going to take anything any Mormon has to say about the Bible seriously. You don’t get to discredit the Bible, take Biblical passages out of context, and then try to use Biblical passages as you see fit to try and justify Mormonism. You have left out all of the passages that say marriage ends at death. Even Jesus said there will be no marriage in heaven, but you refuse to believe Jesus Christ and choose the teachings of your “prophets”.
Christians know who holds all authority and it is not the LDS church: http://www.mrm.org/hougey-on-authority. Mormons lack a clear understanding of the Biblical requirements for the priesthood and you do not qualify for this.
Paul defends a paid ministry in 1 Corinthians 9 and LDS standard works support the idea of a paid ministry. For more on this see: http://www.mrm.org/paid-ministry.
I would much rather receive Biblical teaching from someone who is educated on the subject than from just anyone who has no education or training and would be more likely to introduce false teaching. I also appreciate the fact that my Pastor always encourages his flock to investigate any and all teaching that he presents. All Christians are to compare the teachings of men with the Bible to determine truth. It is my understanding that the LDS are taught to accept the teachings of their “prophets” at face value. A good example of this going wrong would be Brigham Young’s Adam God theory which in my mind leads to the road of idolotry.
“According to Mark, there is no Biblical understand, because the Bible is from God, and God is not able to be understood.So, either….”
That statement just makes you sound foolish. I agree with God and both Mark and I have a very clear understanding of what God has said in the Bible.
Josh it seems you are making the assumption that we are all Calvinists. The Bible clearly teaches both election and free will of man. Sound Christians who read and understand their Bibles do not accept false teaching from ANY source. We heed Biblical warnings on this.
And once again, you have failed to address the key issues that have been presented regarding major problems in Mormonism (works based religion) as well as your double standard of applying logic to the Bible, but not to the Book of Mormon and other LDS teachings that have been proven to be flat out wrong. Why are you not being honest and up front about the major differences within the LDS church that separate it from Christianity? Where was your logic when you made your assessment of the Book of Mormon?
Works based religions are dangerous because people within them end up believing that their church and church activities are what saves them. We must never elevate the status of the Church above that of Christ and we must never alter Biblical teaching to fit what we want to believe. I can’t begin to tell you how many former LDS people I have known who had never even read the Bible or even knew what the LDS church was really all about. Thank God they opened their Bibles, investigated the LDS church, opened their eyes, and found salvation through Christ!
My advice to Mormons: get some sound Biblical teaching from outside the LDS church.
Josh
You said: “And to David, Christ has given us everything we need to return to him.
How does that make it impossible for me to know what i must do?”
Christ has done all the work for you Josh, He doesn’t give you tools, He gives you His love, grace and full and free forgiveness. The only thing you “must do” is believe in the One He (the Father) has sent.
“28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-30.
It is impossible for you or me to know how many ways we sin everyday because everyone still has a sinful nature that has corrupted our knowledge of how to please God. Of course we know of many ways we sin, but there are even those ways we don’t even want to admit to ourselves are sin. Yes, we have been made perfect in Christ but the Bible tells us, as Paul explains in Romans 7 that we still have a sinful nature at war with the new creation we are in Christ. That was the point I tried to make yesterday, the more I read His word, the more I see how I fall short and how much I need Jesus. It makes me that much more thankful for what He did for me. I realize that only His perfect life credited to me is what assures me of eternal life with Heavenly Father. God took care of all those imperfections and all those sins by substituting Jesus perfect life for our sinful imperfect lives.
David
ECHO
First of all, stop trying to judge me. It gets rather annoying. You assume you know the process by which I study and accept doctrine, and you only prove that you have no clue.
Let me set the record strait. I do not accept a doctrine simply because it is logical, nor do I reject it simply because it is illogical. I study the scriptures, I compare various passages, and when I think I have an understanding I go to the Lord and ask him if I have the correct understanding. If he confirms it I accept it. If he doesn’t I go back and try to figure out what I got wrong.
“until you are willing to admit that God might be a whole lot smarter than you are”
What you really want is for me to admit that you are smarter, which I won’t do. I will always admit that God is smarter, and I will accept his word over any reasoning that is placed before me (which I have done many times). What I won’t accept is your interpretation of his word, which is what you want me to accept.
“you will know you have the correct interpretation when the Bible no longer has any discrepancies”
Then I am forced to reject your interpretation, as the discrepancies are so numerous as to be greater than the consistencies.
Now this next part is revealing: “and is found to be perfect as a direct result of all that you believe.”
It seems to me that what you are saying is that your belief should shape your interpretation of the bible until you can no longer see any discrepancies, and then you will know you have the right one. Should not all that you believe be a direct result of what you read, and not what you read be a direct result of all that you believe.
CHOOSE
I understand what Mark is saying, and I understand the logic of the trinity (what little there is anyway). The problem is that this logic contradicts everything I read in the Bible, and so I reject it.
The insinuation of this blog is that we start from a position of logic and then accept only what fits it. The problem with this is that it is impossible to start with logic. Logic is not a starting point but the tool used. We start with the assumption that everything in the scriptures is true, and then we use our God given reason to try and understand it.
No, we do not latch onto the old traditions and doctrine and try to see how the Bible teaches them. We take the Bible, and see what it teaches. We believe that God would not have invited us to reason together with him (Isaiah 1: 18) unless we were capable of understanding. As such we seek out an understanding.
As to your supposed understanding of LDS doctrine, I have yet to see it. You claim to have read enough to know what “after all we can do mean” and yet you have not shown a true understanding of it, and have claimed we don’t have an understanding.
Lets see if you can understand this: (http://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/ephesians-1-3?lang=eng&query=%22after+all+we+can+do%22+%22does+not+mean%22)
“we are all like a man who cannot swim and is drowning in a river. The Savior stands on the bank and extends a branch to save us. That branch is the grace of God offered to us through the Atonement, without which we cannot be saved. If we do not put forth an effort to grasp the branch and hold on, we will still drown. We are not expected to do this on our own, however. If we try, the grace of God will increase our strength and give us the power to hold on and be saved (see Bible Dictionary, “grace,” p. 697). As the prophet Nephi said, “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23; italics added).
Thus Grace does not come after we complete a list of requires, as all the non-LDS try to claim. Grace comes before anything to make our salvation possible. But we must act on it in order to make it effect, at which time we are strengthen by that grace and enabled to do more. This is the true doctrine, and anyone who denies it has no understanding of our doctrine.
DAVID
“1. God must be confined to limits of human reason”
We don’t confine God to the limits of human reason. Such would be impossible. The fullness of God is beyond us, and we will never understand it until we are partakers of it. Doing so would be like trying to confine the Universe within the atmosphere of the Earth.
However, we do not remove God from the limits of our understanding either, which is what Mark, and most Christians do. Doing so is like saying that we are incapable of understanding beyond this earth.
“2. every passage that plainly says we are justified by faith not by works really doesn’t actually mean that”
Actually, I think we have all admitted that it is our faith that justifies us. We simply point out that what faith is justifying is our works, and thus without any works to justify Faith has no effect.
I agree we see vastly different meanings in various passages, which simply proves that they are not quite as plain as you claim.
Here is a good place for Mormons to start in their pursuit of Biblical Truth:
Using the Bible as the standard for doctrinal truth, this 19-week study examines basic teachings of historic Christianity and helps develop an understanding of how these truths affect our lives. The distinct differences between these teachings and other religions are explored in an open and respectful atmosphere. Fresh Start is designed for people who may come from various backgrounds or who are new to Utah’s culture, but is open to all. The format is upfront teaching with some Q&A.
This is a link to audio mp3s from the class. They take a bit to load so some patience is required, but worth it.
http://www.washingtonheights.org/adults/fresh_start.php
Joshtried said, “By this very same argument, you cannot understand anything in the Bible, because ALL of it is of God. Why in the world are there so many books, so many scriptures in the Bible? If all that we were to know was that God sent His son, then the Bible would consist of ONE page. that page would read “ACCEPT CHRIST OR DIE!!”
But that sums up what the whole Bible is about, that all of its pages point to this truth, accept Christ or die a spiritual death and go to hell for eternity and not to least a lower heaven such as the so called Telestial Kingdom which is supposed to be better than anything we have on earth.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Definition of CONDEMN
transitive verb
1. to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation
2 a: to pronounce guilty : convict
b: sentence, doom
So condemned doesn’t mean a non believer, if we go by what the Bible says about the subject, gets any kind of reward at all which is what going to even the Telestial Kingdom would be.
Shem, you are not fooling me or anyone else here with your portrayal of Mormonism. When are you going to start addressing the major issues that we have addressed?
Perhaps you could start with why so many Mormons have no clue that Jesus is needed for salvation?
By the way in addition to reading LDS writings, I have heard from A LOT of ex Mormons who confirm my understanding of “after all we can do”. How do you explain that?
Are you now going to tell me Mormonism is not a works based religion?
One last thought on what Josh said: “Our way is not the easiest on this earth, for sin is VERY easy, and to always keep our covenants is not.”
Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden light. That’s why you need Jesus. The yoke of Mormonism is HEAVY and it’ burden is HEAVY. Our covenants are kept through Christ.
Hebrews 10:11-17
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[
Choose:
“Where was your logic when you made your assessment of the Book of Mormon? ”
How about the fact that there is archaeological PROOF that men where in the Americas before people came across on the land bridge?
I had saved an email from long ago, but deleted it recently… to bad, or i could prove to you golden plates similar to that found by Joseph exist. i believe it was in Bolivia? but i could be mistaken on this
Kent:
your reasoning astounds me.. It sums up what the whole Bible is about… There is so much to understand about accepting Christ, and yet you are willing to lump it into accept Him or die..
If you actually paid attention, The resurrection was for everyone too… EVERYONE gets their bodies back. With not one hair on their head out of place.
We believe that EVERYONE will have a chance at the grace of God… i have explain this in more detail in other places. Have fun!
CHOOSE
“I have heard from A LOT of ex Mormons who confirm my understanding of “after all we can do”. How do you explain that?”
It is all very simple: The most likely thing is that they never truly understood what this passage meant. They came to the same false conclusion that you did and were unable to see the truth, just as you are.
Quite honestly, the whole argument that “ex-mormons” said it so it has to be true is ridiculous. I have given you a quote strait from the leaders of the church that contradicts what you claim these “ex-mormons” said. Sorry if I choose to reject your claims and accept what my leaders actually teach.
“When are you going to start addressing the major issues that we have addressed?”
When they become relevant to the discussion at hand. I try not to introduce a topic to a blog that is not specifically addressing that topic. If Mark wants to address a blog to the idea of church membership and the requirements of it I will be perfectly willing to discuss it. But I will not discuss it on a thread that is talking about the need for works, or that is discussing the extent of the atonement. It would be out of place.
“Perhaps you could start with why so many Mormons have no clue that Jesus is needed for salvation?”
Considering that I have never yet met a member of this church that did not know beyond all doubt that it is Christ who saves, and that no one else can do this for us, I find this point rather obsolete. Your claim that this is the case is not sufficient for me bother with the idea. It seem that what is more likely true is that you are exaggerating what you have heard, interpreting the idea that Christ did not do everything as not knowing he is needed.
Simply put, if a member actually had no clue then they have never read any of the scriptures, have never attended any church meetings, and never read any of the magazines or other publications of the church. If a person has done any of this they know that Christ is the one who saves.
“The yoke of Mormonism is HEAVY and it’ burden is HEAVY.”
I would disagree. The yoke and burden of the LDS church is actually rather easy, for those of faith. It seems hard, and is hard, for those who do not truly have faith in Christ.
I think what Josh was meaning is that it is still a yoke and a burden, while sinning is not (or at least doesn’t not appear to be).
So, to try and some up the beliefs purported here:
Christ has fied for our sins, past present, and future, yet one repentance is not enough? He already died for them all, why not just say one big “youre sorry?”. You have to continue appologizing (what, working???????) If you continue to sin?
Christ makes you perfect through baptism and a remission of sins, yet you cant be perfect in this life?
Man, I sure do wonder what happened to Elijah then….yes, I know he was before Christ, but no one can be perfect, right?
Choose:
How about re-reading Heb 10:16 that YOU posted. A covenant is not a way way thing. It never has been, and never will be. His laws????? What in the world????? YOU mean, Christ expects something of us????????????
That truly is a new concept
Shem
1. You don’t confine God to the limits of human reason? Unless you “remove God for the limits of your understanding,” you will continue to confine God to your own human reason. Shem you are so accustomed to twisting words around to inverse their meaning sometimes I wonder if you even know what you believe.
2. You think you admitted that it is faith that justifies? You have never admitted that anywhere I have seen by the time you get to the end of your explanation. The above post is no different. You say “without any works to justify Faith has no effect.” Faith is not made effective by works, faith is effective and produces works. Works don’t carry out the justification that is by Faith and they don’t justify us. You insist that works are necessary for forgiveness but works are merely the result of faith. You are only kidding yourself when you make statements like the one I am responding to.
You do not believe that faith justifies. You believe in the law and so you are under the law. In one of your posts yesterday from the Nephi 25 post- you said: “It thus clearly teaches that we must still abide the commandments of Christ, doing all good works that he has commanded.”
As much as I would like you to, by your posts you have made it abuntantly clear that you do not believe any of these passages which are the inspired Word of God:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 3:28
” 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Galations 2:16
“16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
You dismiss the grace of God announced in these amazing passages as simply “your interpretation” and insist on “doing your part” in order to attain forgiveness for yourself. Works attain nothing for you, They don’t make you perfect, or even get you close, they will never make you worthy of the grace God gives you because Jesus paid for your sins out of His great love for you. He suffered, He was punished, His blood was infinitely precious, His work was the ONLY work that the Father would accept to cover everyone’s sins including yours. Your works earn you nothing. Works simply show the presence to true faith and are its inevitable fruit.
God even tells you how he sees our righteousness.
6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
Stop kidding yourself. Put down the LDS doctrine and see the truth of God’s eternal and perfect Word and the saving message of the true gospel. Here are some other truths:
1. Nothing can ever destroy God’s Church – ever.
“18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18.
2. Jesus Words and the Words of Scripture endure forever and more than than mere words from “dead prophets.”
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35
David
As I just posted on the 2nephi board, faith without works is not faith. There seems to be some disconnect there for some of you. You MUST have faith, yes?? I think we can all agree on this point. Faith is a must! Through faith, one must work, or the aforementioned faith does not exist.
Faith IS work. Or it is not faith
Also choose,
How can the bible teach the free will of man, if the Holy Ghost has taken over my body and made me choose Christ? This is not free will, no matter which way you slice it.
DAVID
“you will continue to confine God to your own human reason.”
This is a false statement. I have never claimed to understand God fully. I confine him to nothing. But I do strive to understand that part of him that is able to be comprehended by my mortal mind.
You claim that I confine him because I say I am able to understand him in part. Just as I can never truly see all the wonders of the universe (as most are beyond my sight) but can still comprehend that which is close to me; so to I can never truly comprehend God, but can still understand that part that he has revealed.
“You have not admitted that anywhere I have seen.”
That is because you refuse to understand. Let us use an analogy: You said that we do not believe it is the fuel that makes a car go. A replied that we do believe it is the fuel that makes the car go, but we still have to turn the ignition, thus creating the spark that ignites the fuel. Now you come back and say that because I said we had to turn the ignition I am saying that it is not the fuel that makes the car go.
Of course you also claim that I don’t believe various verses (meaning that I don’t agree with your interpretation of them). However, I would have to say that you don’t believe in this passage:
“Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he offered Isaac his son upon the alter?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?”
But since you deny that works justify, or that works is what makes faith perfect, you must deny these verses.
Speaking of verses: I do believe in Ephesians 2: 8-9, as well as verse ten, when he says we are to walk in good works. I also believe in Galatians 2: 16, for we are not to be subject to the Law (of Moses) anymore, and by the works of that law in no flesh justified. I also believe 2 Corinthians 5: 21, as it clearly tells us that through the atonement we are given the chance to become part of his righteousness (notice the word ‘might’ is a conditional word).
Of course you see a different meaning in these passages (which causes you to contradict James) and so you really mean that you want me to believe in your doctrine and interpretation, not these passages per say.
Shem
I deny no part of scripture. Thank you though for proving my point. You quote me this verse to try to disprove the very passages you next tell me that you believe. You think this passage means that we are justified by works. We are not. Why is it you only look at this passage in isolation? These passages show Abraham’s faith manifested itself in works which are the natural result of true faith. Had Abraham’s faith been dead, He would have never trusted in God’s promise to him. But Abraham trusted God and it was that trust that made Abraham righteous. This is a great illustration of you must use scripture to interpret scripture. Romans 4 explains this very act Abraham and why it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
. . . . .
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Abraham was fully persuaded that God could do what he promised, and that is why it was credited to him as righteousness.
The passage you quoted me and these passages do not conflict to me. I understand the context of both. You , however, see these are in conflict with each and think it cancels out all other passages promising that we are saved by faith and not by works. It is speaking to the same thing – Abraham’s faithful act was performed because of his trust in God, not to gain righteousness, but righteousness was his BECAUSE HE TRUSTED GOD’s promise. Faith without works is dead. Abraham did not have dead faith. You can’t simply ignore the context of scripture passages – well you obviously can – but it is not the way to read scripture or anything else for that matter.
The other passages you say you believe, you don’t believe because they don’t say anything about giving anyone “a chance” to be righteous through your their works. These passages say plainly that one is justified by faith without works. You repeatedly and adamantly deny that. Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross wasn’t enough for you, you believe you MUST “do all you can do” to give you the forgiveness Jesus suffered and died to give you.
Shem said: “It seems to me that what you are saying is that your belief should shape your interpretation of the bible until you can no longer see any discrepancies, and then you will know you have the right one. Should not all that you believe be a direct result of what you read, and not what you read be a direct result of all that you believe.”
No that’s not what I am saying. What I am saying is that God’s word shapes our interpretation. And when we believe all of God’s word, there are no discrepancies. However, since Mormonism claims that the Bible is filled with discrepancies, one can easily and rightfully conclude that everything a Mormon sees in scripture is a direct result of false teaching.
Shem said: ““we are all like a man who cannot swim and is drowning in a river. The Savior stands on the bank and extends a branch to save us. That branch is the grace of God offered to us through the Atonement, without which we cannot be saved. If we do not put forth an effort to grasp the branch and hold on, we will still drown. We are not expected to do this on our own, however. If we try, the grace of God will increase our strength and give us the power to hold on and be saved (see Bible Dictionary, “grace,” p. 697). As the prophet Nephi said, “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23; italics added).”
The problem with this is that we are not like a man who cannot swim and is drowning in a river. We are like a man who has “died” and gone under.
Colossians 2:13 “When you were “dead” in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.”
David, you have just verified my point again
Abrahams faith would have been dead, and that faith manifests itself in works.
Faith IS work
Work isnt necessarily Faith.
It is not our work, but our work through faith. There is a very clear difference, and you are trying to say “Mormons” accept work, while clearly IGNORING the through faith part.
I am a mormon, you are not. I know what I believe, you do not. I believe I MUST work through faith, or my faith is dead, just as Abrahams eould have been
Shem said: “I would disagree. The yoke and burden of the LDS church is actually rather easy, for those of faith. It seems hard, and is hard, for those who do not truly have faith in Christ.”
The burden is heavy for Mormons who realize what sin truly is and are truly overwhelmed by their sins. These are the very people Jesus wants to heal. Unlike you Shem, you lied in the “Joseph Smith” thread, you continually slander people here and hurl all kinds of personal attacks at people, you make countless false negative assumptions about people. Your sins are countless here on this blog alone! And all unrepentantly. So it is easy for people like you Shem who could care less about obedience to all of the commandments to feel burdened by it at all.
Don’t you know that liars don’t go to heaven?…
Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Josh said: “Man, I sure do wonder what happened to Elijah then….yes, I know he was before Christ, but no one can be perfect, right?”
Let me put it this way…If you believe you can be perfect this side of heaven, then until you are perfect, you have not done all you can do.
Josh said: ~”David, you have just verified my point again
Abrahams faith would have been dead, and that faith manifests itself in works.
Faith IS work
Work isnt necessarily Faith.
It is not our work, but our work through faith. There is a very clear difference, and you are trying to say “Mormons” accept work, while clearly IGNORING the through faith part.
I am a mormon, you are not. I know what I believe, you do not. I believe I MUST work through faith, or my faith is dead, just as Abrahams eould have been”~
You can do good works when they aren’t a condition to eternal life. As soon as you make works a condition to eternal life, you remove the free will to do them and they now become mandatory.
Josh
Works as a requirement for forgiveness is not a work “through” faith. It is out of obedience to the law. Works do not create or maintain faith. Faith is a free gift from God, which he maintains not us. You cannot make yourself have faith nor work to create or maintain it. The Pharasees thought they could make themselves righteous through their works. And Jesus said this:
Luke 18:
” 9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. ”
David
Good post Dave.
It seems that there is no shortage of “gospels” in Paul’s day , and nothing has changed even today.
Paul being a devout Jew could understand man’s attempts to try and obtain eternal life from God by
doing good works , the Law of Moses was full of commands , laws . Paul’s answer to this was Gal.2:16,
Rom. 4 ; Eph. 2:8-9. Earning or meriting complete forgiveness and being made right with God unto
eternal life was not by works of the law, but thru faith. Faith , a trust, a surrendering of the will to God ,
through this faith God’s grace is given to the one who confesses his/her sins and asks to be pardoned,
God then grants eternal life, this all happens through faith in a Savior—–Jn 20;31. True to Paul’s warnings
about other “gospels” — Gal. 2:8-9 , we have prophets today who introduce such . The Law of Moses
has it’s modern day counterpart as modern day prophets can introduce a comprehensive list of laws but
under the label of ” the gospel of Jesus Christ ” . Keeping all these laws is the works necessary to receive
eternal life. Words such as merit and earn have been employed to describe how attaining the highest
“blessings” by keeping these works have to offer is obtained. I was reading the testimony of former Mormon
Carolyn Sexauer where she cited Elder E.F. Perry : ” The gospel of Jesus Christ is called the plan of
salvation. It is a system of rules by complying with which , salvation may be obtained.” Brigham Young
added : ” The gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances
by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into
the presence of the Father and the Son. ” [ Discourses of B.Y. p.1 by Widtsoe ] . With this type of gospel
no wonder Paul’s warnings are appreciated today by those who are leary of being detoured from the
simple gospel of God’s grace as expressed by Paul in the above scriptures. The works of Mormonism’s
“restored ” gospel are good works, but like the law of Moses they can’t qualify us as to how eternal
life is received . The only good work that qualifies us to receive eternal life is the vicarious work of Jesus ; the
perfect life He led and His dying as our substitute . His complete payment and His perfect life are what
qualify us to live with the Father in the highest heaven —Phil 3:9 . So Eph. 2-9 is clear , it’s NOT BY
WORKS , that salvation is received . It’s through our trusting in Jesus (faith) and by God’s unmerited favor
(grace). James 2 ? works are an evidence of our salvation , not the means .
Echo: If you would, please clarify this
“You can do good works when they aren’t a condition to eternal life. As soon as you make works a condition to eternal life, you remove the free will to do them and they now become mandatory.”
Who here has removed free will? free will is ALWAYS in the equation, even AFTER you accept Christ, you CAN choose to reject him. Even 1/3 of the host of heaven, LIVING WITH GOD, choose to reject Christs plan of salvation.
SATAN would have had that EVERY SINGLE PERSON returned to heaven. HE would have made us all, every single one of us, return. But, he demanded the glory for this to be his, and not God’s.
Christ said, i will go and die for everyone, and the glory be to God, but some of you will reject it.
obviously Christ won the debate, and here we are. But, even before we got here, there were those that did not want to have to make that choice. They wanted to be assured to return to God. They wanted to be herded through like cattle. Unfortunately, they chose to follow Satan.
obviously, then, that leaves Christs plan for us, and there are those of us that WILL choose NOT to return. This is NOT the same as some where trying to say earlier that God is picking and choosing which of us get to go back. WE choose whether to follow God, God decides whether we actually have or not. see how that works?
You talk about free will like you understand it. WHO has the free will? do WE have it, or does the Holy Ghost?
you dont even know, because earlier, it was the Holy Ghost accepting Christ FOR YOU and returning you to God’s presence.
Which one of us is really professing free will here? The one that says free will is and will be? or the one that is saying someone else takes over for me, and i get to ride on cruise control, right up into heaven?
NEXT:
I asked for how you (Christianity) receives its Preachers. Yes, i understand that some of them can be paid, but you did not answer which way your preacher was chosen.
I do know for a fact that someone said they would rather that their preacher was well learned (or studied at college, or whatever similitude there was). I want to be beyond clear on this. You would rather have a preacher that has no part in Gods plan (see my people buying the ability to give the Holy Ghost reference above) than someone who legitimately is called of God and did not go to college?
David,
For the umpteenth time, i am not righteous through my works. My works come into play after I profess to accepting Christ in my life. AFTER i profess to accepting Christ, my WORKS PROVE that i have actually accepted Christ.
This is almost exactly the same as the Abraham reference above… Abraham was willing to kill his kid as PROOF he believed in what God said. What if Abraham choose not to go and sacrifice his kid? his faith would have been dead! What if i chose not to do good works? MY faith would be dead! see the parallel here?
Wyomingwilly: I think this is our first official retort to one another, to which i say Good Day! Lets start with this:
“It’s through our trusting in Jesus (faith) and by God’s unmerited favor (grace). James 2 ? works are an evidence of our salvation , not the means
You are ALMOST exactly right. Works are the evidence that we have accepted Christ. Without these works, what evidence is there that we have accepted Christ? IF the is NO EVIDENCE that we accepted Christ, have we really accepted him, or are we trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and the eyes of those around us?
I guess even in my haste, i did not make clear regarding this:
“I do know for a fact that someone said they would rather that their preacher was well learned (or studied at college, or whatever similitude there was). I want to be beyond clear on this. You would rather have a preacher that has no part in Gods plan (see my people buying the ability to give the Holy Ghost reference above) than someone who legitimately is called of God and did not go to college?”
YES some men are called of God, and go to college to study. THIS is legitimate.
I am speaking directly about those who chose themselves to deliver Gods message, and that therefore have no lot with God.
Josh said: “Who here has removed free will?”
Free will to me means obeying God because we want to rather than obeying God because we have to. Since there are no conditions to gaining eternal life, we are free to obey God because we want to. The moment we introduce conditions, we have to obey God in order to gain eternal life.
Josh said: “You talk about free will like you understand it. WHO has the free will? do WE have it, or does the Holy Ghost?
you dont even know, because earlier, it was the Holy Ghost accepting Christ FOR YOU and returning you to God’s presence”
We believe we don’t have free will prior to and in conversion. However once converted, we do have free will.
Josh said: “I asked for how you (Christianity) receives its Preachers. Yes, i understand that some of them can be paid, but you did not answer which way your preacher was chosen.”
We believe our Pastor’s are called by God. We also believe there will be false teachers (Pastors) among us.
Josh, you asked, ” Without these works what evidence is there that we have accepted Christ.? ”
These works can be viewed as evidence —-before men. But the pardon from God and His giving us
eternal life takes place in our heart , that’s our salvation.
( as a side note : it seems to me that on the internet with dialogue with non-LDS , many LDS seem
to down play the role works play in relation to eternal life (exaltation) The last few years this is apparent .
It appears that faith and grace are being given more emphasis and the way terms are used to sound
more closer to main stream Christianity . I have’nt figured it all out yet , but something does’nt seem
quite right . Just my opinion . )
,ECHO
“Free will to me means obeying God because we want to rather than obeying God because we have to.”
I believe free will is the power to choose to follow God or reject him. Free will is only lost when there is no choice to be made, and since there is always a choice there is always free will.
I can choose to believe in God, or I can choose not to. I can choose to obey God or I can choose not to. The motivations of the choice is not what makes it a choice, but the fact that there is something else to choose from.
“The moment we introduce conditions, we have to obey God in order to gain eternal life.”
Where in this is free will destroyed. You speak as if there were no choice to be made simply because what you want has conditions. That is like saying that requiring a driving test to get a lisense takes away free will, because now it is required for the desired outcome. But the choice is still there. I can still choose not to take the test. Granted, this will result in failure to gain the desired lisense, but the choice is still possible, and thus there is still free will.
As to the analogy of us drowning, it really doesn’t matter if you agree with it. I posted this to show what we actually believe in regards to “all you can do” and it showed that rather nicely. You can think we are wrong all you want, but you cannot tell me this does not accurately portray our beliefs, and thus proves almost everything you think we believe on this subject wrong.
Now, concerning my conduct on these thread, I am well aware of my faults, which I have openly admitted and have, on more than one occasion apologized for. However, as is almost always the case, these actions of mine have been in response to personal attacks by you, in which you continually judge me, listing what you think my sins are, and portraying your own self-righteous arrogance in doing so (like your post of February 28, 2012 at 8:33 pm). This is generally in response to a comment I make that you have no actually answer for, such as the afore mentioned post.
To make sure everyone understands what I am getting at I will paraphrase.
1. You said the yoke and burden of the LDS church is hard.
2. I replied that in all my experience I have not found it to be so, but have found it to be easy.
3. You reply that the only reason I could think that is because I “could care less about obedience to all of the commandments to feel burdened by it at all.” This is of course stated after listing all that you see as sin.
So, I must ask you to refrain from your personal slander.
(PS: I have never once lied in thise threads. I have made errors, which I have tried to correct when I find them, but I have never once said anything that I knew was false, or intentionally tried to deceive anyone.)
DAVID
“You , however, see these are in conflict with each and think it cancels out all other passages promising that we are saved by faith and not by works.”
It is statements like this that prove you have no understanding of what we teach and believe. I have never once said that what James said is in conflict with what Paul said. I believe these passages completely, and see them in perfect harmony.
Actually, your explanation is almost exactly what we believe. The only difference is that we actually accept that since Faith is dead without works, if a man does not have the works his faith is of no benefit to him, which proves that works are indeed required, just as James teaches, but that it is only if they are performed through faith, just as Paul teaches.
Like I said: It is the fuel that makes the car move, but it is the ignition that ignites the fuel.
JOSH
Could I ask a favor?
Would you go to the Joseph Smith blog that Echo has referenced and tell me if you know of any errors I might have made? I would appreciate it.
WY Willey said, “( as a side note : it seems to me that on the internet with dialogue with non-LDS , many LDS seem to down play the role works play in relation to eternal life (exaltation) The last few years this is apparent .
It appears that faith and grace are being given more emphasis and the way terms are used to sound
more closer to main stream Christianity . I have’nt figured it all out yet , but something does’nt seem
quite right . Just my opinion . )”
This has been my feeling as well and seems to be coming from their attempts to be accepted as mainstream Christians and looks good on the surface, but is indeed deceptive at the core. What has been put in writing is undeniable though they will most likely try:
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” ~Articles of Faith
“In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.” ~LDS.org
“Significance of ordinances: To Latter-day Saints, the saving ordinances are seen as necessary for salvation, but they are not sufficient in and of themselves. For example, baptism is required for exaltation, but simply having been baptized does not guarantee any eternal reward. The baptized person is expected to be obedient to God’s commandments, to repent of any sinful conduct subsequent to baptism, and to receive the other saving ordinances.
An ordinance may be viewed as a physical act signifying a spiritual commitment, or a covenant. Failure to honor that commitment results in the ordinance having no effect. However, sincere repentance can restore the blessings associated with the ordinance.
While Latter Day Saints affirm that saving ordinances are necessary for salvation, ordinances are viewed as empowered only by the Grace of Jesus Christ.” ~Wikipedia.org
Christians here may want to take a look at what they are teaching.
From http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html:
“The truth is that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is offered to us through a covenant, a two-way contract: if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else, forgiving us, cleansing us, healing us, and giving us power to return to the presence of the Father – not because we earned it, but because we accepted the terms upon which he offers his infinite grace and mercy.”
“salvation comes through “the merits of Christ,” not our own, but we still must choose Him and seek to repent of our sins with faith in Him.”
“Mercy and forgiveness from God is a gift, but we must meet the conditions God has given to receive that gift. We must repent and humbly follow Christ.”
“Some teach that we don’t really need to strive to obey God’s commandments or to make our calling and election sure. Some of these false prophets, who have twisted and mangled the word of God, teach the questionable doctrine of “once saved, always saved,” even if we commit murder and fight against Christ. They lull people into false security, telling them that they are saved and that no further effort on their part is needed.”
“Is there any hint of the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”? Is there any solid evidence for what some call a “cheap grace” that requires no effort, no obedience, no sincere repentance, no discipleship, no patience? No. Rather, we see a God who urges men to sacrifice, to take up their cross, to come and follow Him. His Sermon on the Mount is entirely focused on the works that we need to do to become his children.”
“Christians can fall from grace! That is why we must endure to the end to be saved,”
“Though we are saved by grace, we can also fall from grace and lose our salvation. Thus, we need to be careful lest we lose the gift Christ offers.”
“The message is clear: if we turn again to sin and abandon the way of righteousness, we will not be saved.”
“To remove all doubt on this issue, let us return to the words of Christ. Twice he was asked point blank what needs to be done to obtain eternal life. His answer? Keep the commandments!”
“Does commandment keeping save us? Absolutely not, though Christ tells us that we must keep His commandments (strive to obey Him) if we would have eternal life. But it is by His grace that we are saved – and how we need that grace! How we need to be saved from our sins and our fallen nature. ”
“This world needs a savior, we need a savior, I need a savior, and there is only one: the Lord Jesus Christ. Through his divine grace, we can overcome, we can become partakers in the divine nature, we can become strong and ultimately glorious and filled with joy, while those who reject his grace and do not keep his commandments will find themselves weak and terrified at the weight of their own sins. ”
And then there is the infamous Miracle of Forgiveness:
Sin: Murder, adultery, theft, cursing, unholiness in masters, disobedience in servants, unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, disobedience to husbands, lack of natural affection, high-mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double-tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant-breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appetite, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block; and in our modern language, masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices.
Kimball defines repentance as the perfect, successful abandonment of sin, through the following actions:
1.conviction, in which “the sinner consciously recognizes his sin.”
2.abandonment of sin
3.confession to church authorities and/or other parties wronged by the sin
4.restitution
5.keeping God’s commandments
6.forgiving others
“Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin,” Kimball writes. The objective of repentance, he writes, is to obtain “perfection” as a prerequisite for achieving “immortality and eternal life. … This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
“It is impossible for me or any other mortal to save another’s soul, but it is my humble hope that through this book some who are suffering the baleful effects of sin may be helped to find the way from darkness to light, from suffering to peace, from misery to hope, and from spiritual death to eternal life. If to any degree the book achieves this and helps to confirm others in a life of righteous endeavor, my efforts in its production will have been justified.”
To me this says it all:
“Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
This is not possible. The Celestial Kingdom (if it were real) would be a very empty place!
Bottom line, in spite of being told I don’t understand any of this, it is perfectly clear as to what “after all we can do” means and all of this means that you are not under Biblical grace you are under grace + your efforts which is not grace at all.
Shem
You may think I believe almost exactly what you believe. Believe me when I tell you this – if that were true I would utterly terrified right now because that would make me an unbeliever, or worse I would be an unbeliever and not even know it. The last thing I want to do is agree with you on the concepts of grace, faith, works, forgiveness and what the saving work of Jesus meant for me. That is most certainly true. If any non LDS member on this blog ever gets the slighest hint that I agree with you on any of those concepts – I would ask them to correct me immediately. Bearing that in mind, I know that for you, the very thought that you not agree witih LDS teachings (yes I’m making an assumption here, but please hear me out) puts you in fear of the outer darkness. I get it. (and yes I know that as soon as you read that your knee jerk reaction will be “no I don’t get it” but putting that aside I’m going to try a more direct approach. I don’t know how long you have been a member of the LDS church, but I know the sense that you have to defend it is very strong and runs very deep. No one expects that it is easy to hear, let alone accept that a faith one is devoted to is false, but for us that rely solely on the Bible as God’s eternal and truthful Word, we simply must speak the truth hopefully in a manner that shows that our concern for you and your soul is very real.
You keep trying to say that there is no difference in one post of mine and then in another you tell me “that’s [my] interpretation.” That sounds alot like disagreement to me. I don’t believe ” I have to do my part” to be forgiven nor do I believe that grace comes to me only AFTER I do all I can do. I know I can never do enough and can never be perfect. What I do, I do BECAUSE I AM STANDING IN HIS GRACE RIGHT NOW, I appreciate the fact that HE has already saved me from sin, death and the devil. I want to live for HIm. That, however, doesn’t mean it is easy or automatic. Living for myself and this world is utterly meaningless. There is a difference when your works are done from the heart out of love for Jesus’ saving grace, and works done to prove to yourself (or out of an obligation to “do all you can do” – take your pick) that you have “faith.”
I said before, sometimes I’m not sure you know what you believe. In an earlier post of yours on 2 Nephi:25:23 you said “Grace is given first, then we must do all we can.” But that is not what 2 Nephi says. It says –
“it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25:23. Grace isn’t grace if you must do something to get it.
If Mormonism didn’t contradict the teachings of the BIble than why does Nephi 25:23 fundamentally rewrite and corrupt the true gospel message of Ephesians 2:8-9. You can say they are the same all day long, but they are NOT the same – not remotely.
“8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
David
DAVID
“You keep trying to say that there is no difference in one post of mine and then in another you tell me “that’s [my] interpretation.”
I never said there was no difference. I said there was little difference. The fact that there is a difference is what proves that you have the wrong gospel. If there was no difference there would be no point in either of us being here.
“No one expects that it is easy to hear, let alone accept that a faith one is devoted to is false”
Yes, I believe it is very hard on you to hear that you are following a false religion, for you are a devout and truly good person. This does not change the fact that it is false however.
Now, you speak about the phrase “After all we can do” and still you do not understand it. Did you read the analogy from the leads of the church, that of a man drowning? Did you even pay attention to what they said.
Yes, the verse says we are saved by Grace, after all we can do. What does this mean? It means that God’s grace is there, willing to help us, and if we do what we can that grace will lift us to exaltation. In other words, grace is given to us from the beginning, but until we act on it we gain no reward.
What you claim this means is basically this.
1. We do what we can
2. We receive grace.
3. We are saved.
The truth is that we
1. Receive grace
2. Do what we can and then
3. We are saved.
The only thing that comes after all we can do is salvation, not grace. Grace comes first, through which, if we do all we can, we will be saved.
“There is a difference when your works are done from the heart out of love for Jesus’ saving grace, and works done to prove to yourself (or out of an obligation to “do all you can do” – take your pick) that you have “faith.”
I agree, as does the doctrine of the LDS church. The difference is great.
“I believe almost exactly what you believe. Believe me when I tell you this – if that were true I would utterly terrified right now”
I almost believe you are terrified, because the similarities between what we teach are so striking, and far out number the differences, that I could believe you were terrified. I do not say you are, but I would believe it if you said it.
Let us compare actual doctrine. As I am LDS and you are not let us assume that I know the doctrine of my church just a little better than you. Here is what I believe. What do you disagree with.
1. Faith is the power by which salvation is made possible.
2. Faith is a gift of God, given through his Grace.
3. Without faith nothing we do can ever earn us salvation or forgiveness.
4. Without faith we cannot enter into God’s Kingdom.
5. To be justified we must walk in faith
6. If we have been given faith by God and then do not act on it than our faith does not profit us.
7. It is our works that proves our faith.
In a strait answer, which statement do you disagree with?
LDS definition of Grace: Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
According to this, Jesus is your helper, not your redeemer.
Redeemer: Heb. goel; i.e., one charged with the duty of restoring the
rights of another and avenging his wrongs (Lev. 25:48, 49; Num.
5:8; Ruth 4:1; Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35, etc.). This title is
peculiarly applied to Christ. He redeems us from all evil by the
payment of a ransom
Definition of Grace: Grace means free gift. In Greek, it is the word, charis, which is literally a free gift.
Logic:
The LDS version of Grace sounds more like Christian Sanctification to me, but sanctification is the process we go through after we are saved (put our belief and faith in Christ alone) in order to become more like Christ and it is not what saves us.
Judaizer: Judaizer is predominantly a Christian term, derived from the Greek verb ioudaïzō (ἰουδαΐζω “live according to Jewish customs”). This term is most widely known from the single use in the New Testament (Galatians 2:14) where Paul publicly challenges Peter for compelling Gentile believers to “judaize”.
To me, Mormons are modern day Judaizers, except they have replaced OT law with LDS law. As seen in my previous post, any Mormon who believes that they are saved by keeping LDS laws and ordinances must do so by keeping them 100% and since this is NOT possible how many of them will be exalted? I would think none, so then, what is the point in participating in LDS ordinances that mean nothing unless you are 100% free from sin?
CHOOSE
You still have no understanding, and are misapplying many quotes because if it.
First of all, Grace is a free gift, but as you people are so fond of pointing out, it must be accepted. We simply add to this that it must be used. It is like receiving a the gift of a car. If you reject it you do not have it. If you do not use it you will not go very far.
As to keeping the laws and ordinances, the problem with what you say is that we do not believe it is through keeping these things that we are saved. It is through the grace of God that we are saved, if we keep these things. Both are needed. I would agree that anyone who relies solely on the laws and ordinances to be saved will never inherit the Celestial Kingdom, but then we do not do this. We rely solely on the merits of Christ, who has commanded that we keep these laws and ordinances.
Shem
The fact that there is a difference does not prove your false gospel is somehow true.
You asked which statement do I disgree with.
1. Faith is the power by which salvation is made possible.
2. Faith is a gift of God, given through his Grace.
3. Without faith nothing we do can ever earn us salvation or forgiveness.
4. Without faith we cannot enter into God’s Kingdom.
5. To be justified we must walk in faith
6. If we have been given faith by God and then do not act on it than our faith does not profit us.
7. It is our works that proves our faith.
Here you go:
1. disagree – Faith is trusting that Jesus did everything necessary to get us into heaven without any of our own works being required.
2. disagree – we receive grace through faith and they are both a gift from God
3. disagree – with faith you know you never have to earn either one, without faith you think you have to earn it
4. agree – with faith as I have defined it not as you do.
5. disagree – we don’t have to do anything to be justified. We have been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ.
6. disagree – our works do not make our faith profit us.
7. disagree – Works don’t prove faith because you can have works without faith, but works are evidence that faith is alive.
Choose: That’s a good point about LDS being modern day Judaizers just with new laws. I think if Paul where here today to write a letter to the Mormons it would sound very much like his letters to the Galatians.
Shem said: “Now, concerning my conduct on these thread, I am well aware of my faults, which I have openly admitted and have, on more than one occasion apologized for.”
Shem, I have not seen a single apology from you directed towards me. What post # is that in?
Shem said: “So, I must ask you to refrain from your personal slander.
(PS: I have never once lied in thise[sic] threads. I have made errors, which I have tried to correct when I find them, but I have never once said anything that I knew was false, or intentionally tried to deceive anyone.)”
Another lie.
Let me put it this way. You flat out lied to me and to the readers here and if that wasn’t bad enough, you took that evil plan of yours one step further and stated that I was twisting your meaning and that I was slandering you and your faith! When all along, I was telling the truth and you were the one who was lying. I respond to you the way I do because you are a lying, deceitful person who will lie in order to call me one who slanders you and your faith and you do this to deceive others. The reality is that you are a liar and a slanderer and a deceiver. But you have been caught dead in your tracks and your lies and I will not let that go unnoticed. Sin has consequences both now and in eternity.
We know what happens to deliberate liars…
…
Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
John 8:44 “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, FOR THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
Hebrews 10:26-27 “ If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
To be honest, it doesn’t bother me at all when you lie to and slander me. God is my judge and yours. It doesn’t bother me when you point out my sins either because I am more than willing to apologize when I have messed up and I have apologized when I was led to believe I messed up. I am not sinless, I am not perfect. But I sure don’t desire to sin intentionally against you or anyone else. What makes me really angry is that when you lie intentionally then slander me for it that you do that in order to deceive innocent Mormons who are very sincere about their faith.
What’s the matter Shem, do you think Mormons are so intellectually bankrupt that they can’t take the truth?
Do you think they are so intellectually bankrupt that unless you lie to them they will be lost?
Do you believe Mormonism is so false that you need to lie and deceive people about it?
Do you believe Mormonism is so false that it makes it necessary for you to slander us in order to defend what you pretend to believe?
Or heaven forbid, do you believe in your heart that Mormonism is false so you are out to make Mormons twice as much the sons of Hell that you are?
THAT makes me angry!! It makes me furious that you would intentionally deceive anyone, let alone those of your own faith! Anyone who is willfully and intentionally deceives others is nothing but scum. You continually try to wiggle out of your sins and lie’s. May God judge you right now!
Many Mormons are wonderful people who are sincere in their faith and they are not as intellectually bankrupt as you think they are! Mormons are smart and gifted people! Give them the freedom to make up their own minds by telling them the truth and not lying and deceiving them. Stop your continual barrage of slander against us and let the teachings of Mormonism defend its own ground. Obviously you have no faith in the teachings of Mormonism because if you did have faith in the teachings of Mormonism you wouldn’t have to resort to intentional lies, deception and slander in order to defend Mormonism.
There are a lot of kind, sincere, smart, God fearing and wonderful Mormons, but you are not one of them.
Here is the proof that Shem was lying intentionally and slandering me intentionally…read posts 42 and 50
A liar can’t be trusted in anything he says or does. Shem has destroyed his own reputation. It is pointless for him to remain here in this blog.
ECHO
Once again, shut up.
“and I have apologized when I was led to believe I messed up.”
Really, because I have not heard one apology from you. In fact, every time I have pointed out your faults you generally reply with some such ranting as you have here.
Now, I have never once lied to anyone, and your obvious slander is just that. What I have done is disagreed with you; I have shown what I believe and what the LDS church teaches. Because this does not fit nicely in with your preconceived bias towards us you are forced to accuse deceit, as anything else would force you to admit you are wrong.
As a challenge, please give me a specific lie that I told, and not just a difference of opinion.
DAVID
“1. disagree – Faith is trusting that Jesus did everything necessary to get us into heaven without any of our own works being required.”
So you are denying that it is through faith that we are saved. The problem is that I never stated what are faith had to be in, but what the result of that faith was. You have disagreed with what it is, but have not actually addressed what you believe concerning what it does.
“2. disagree – we receive grace through faith and they are both a gift from God”
I agree they are both a gift from God, one coming from the other. So, the only difference in belief is which comes first.
“3. disagree – with faith you know you never have to earn either one, without faith you think you have to earn it”
Again, you do not address what I have said, but alter it so that you can address what you want to address. I simply stated that without faith one cannot be saved. Do you agree with this or not.
“4. agree – with faith as I have defined it not as you do.”
You did not define faith. You define the object of faith.
“5. disagree – we don’t have to do anything to be justified. We have been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ.”
So, we are justified whether we walk in faith or not. This I am not surprised you disagree with.
“6. disagree – our works do not make our faith profit us.”
So our faith would save us without our works. Again, I am not surprised you disagree.
“7. disagree – Works don’t prove faith because you can have works without faith, but works are evidence that faith is alive.”
Evidence is proof. These two terms are synonymous. Thus is works is the evidence of faith it is the proof of faith.
Of the seven points you didn’t actually address three of them (1, 3, 4); you try to disagree with another, but then restate what I said (7); you disagree with two (5, 6); and disagree in part with a third (2). All this makes things difficult to truly compare. So let us simplify it.
1. It is by grace through faith that we are saved.
2. Both faith and grace are gifts of God, the one following the other.
3. Without faith we cannot be saved.
4. Without faith we cannot enter into God’s Kingdom.
5. Those who walk in faith are justified.
6. If we have been given faith by God and then do not act on it than our faith does not profit us.
7. Without works faith is dead, and thus does not profit us.
I tried to put this more in terms you would understand this time. I still accept every state, and have not changed the meaning of any.
Shem
For the reason I stated in the other post.
Bye
Let me start by saying THIS IS A VERY LONG POST. YOU ASKED FOR ANSWERS, I HAVE GIVEN QUITE A FEW IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS.
Wyoming: i figured we would meet again!! :P
“These works can be viewed as evidence —-before men. But the pardon from God and His giving us
eternal life takes place in our heart , that’s our salvation.”
There will be evidence in your heart whether you have chosen to live as Christ. I am not asking to see your evidence, and i am sure you do not keep a personal journal of everything good and everything bad you do in this world. There is however a record being kept, your works both good and evil will be known to you, Christ, and God. Whether i can see them is not the point. Evidence is evidence is evidence. If you have not one good thing to say on your plate after you claim to have accept Christ into your heart, it will be a bad day for you.
To This analogy, i want to speak briefly, as it has plagued my mind over the last few days:
“As to the analogy of us drowning”
Someone replied that it is not like we are drowning, but we are already dead (i dont have the time to scroll up right now…..) If we were already dead (physically) i could not be typing on here, and (spiritually) i would not have the chance to accept Christ, so every attempt you made to help me understand said principle would be in vain.
None of us are dead yet. this is not to say Christ could not resurrect us from either death, but there are rules God plays by as well (i am the same yesterday, today, and forever)
To Choose, and your rather elaborate list: i will respond to as many as i can/feel like.. (whichever comes first as i sit here typing…)
1. “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” ~Articles of Faith
THROUGH THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST
2. “In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.
Answer: while this taken at face value obviously goes against what i have been saying, this is not to be taken at said value. This is a reference to different degrees of heaven.
QUESTION: After accepting Christ as your savior, is it possible to make a Covenant with him?????
3. “Significance of ordinances: To Latter-day Saints, the saving ordinances are seen as necessary for salvation, but they are not sufficient in and of themselves. For example, baptism is required for exaltation, but simply having been baptized does not guarantee any eternal reward. The baptized person is expected to be obedient to God’s commandments, to repent of any sinful conduct subsequent to baptism, and to receive the other saving ordinances.
THEY ARE NOT SUFFICIENT IN AND OF THEMSELVES. (Gods commandments being at least faith, works… whole past discussion we have been having..)
4. An ordinance may be viewed as a physical act signifying a spiritual commitment, or a covenant. Failure to honor that commitment results in the ordinance having no effect. However, sincere repentance can restore the blessings associated with the ordinance.
This is why I asked the question in #2, IF I CAN make covenants with Christ, those covenants may require something more than you understand. (and please, dont tell me that Christ and i cannot decide the terms of our own covenants, IF you allow for them to be made at all)
5. While Latter Day Saints affirm that saving ordinances are necessary for salvation, ordinances are viewed as empowered only by the Grace of Jesus Christ.” ~Wikipedia.org
EMPOWERED ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD
6. “The truth is that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is offered to us through a covenant, a two-way contract: if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else, forgiving us, cleansing us, healing us, and giving us power to return to the presence of the Father – not because we earned it, but because we accepted the terms upon which he offers his infinite grace and mercy.”
IF God is the same forever, and covenants have always had a YOU MUST DO SOMETHING FOR THIS clause, it stands to reason something must be done for this covenant as well. and also THE TRUTH IS THAT WE ARE SAVED BY THE GRACE OF CHRIST
7. “salvation comes through “the merits of Christ,” not our own, but we still must choose Him and seek to repent of our sins with faith in Him.”
This is the same free will discussion (either this post or the 2nephi post… again, not scrolling up…)
QUESTION: did WE choose, or did the Holy Ghost choose for us? (i will restate my position on free will: free will is ours from the very moment that we understand that choices have consequences, it is quite helpful if we understand those consequences, but simply knowing good consequence and bad consequence to me is sufficient)
8. “Mercy and forgiveness from God is a gift, but we must meet the conditions God has given to receive that gift. We must repent and humbly follow Christ.”
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS? If you dont repent, Christ does not accept you. even the very basic of Christian Churches teach this.. if you dont know you have to repent (at least once) to be “saved”, we need to be having a completely different talk.
9. “Some teach that we don’t really need to strive to obey God’s commandments or to make our calling and election sure. Some of these false prophets, who have twisted and mangled the word of God, teach the questionable doctrine of “once saved, always saved,” even if we commit murder and fight against Christ. They lull people into false security, telling them that they are saved and that no further effort on their part is needed.”
QUESTION: do you get to accept Christ and sit on your hands? i know a lot of answers have been that this is not what you choose to do. that is not in the line of answers i am looking for. yes or no to this, if you would please.
10. “Is there any hint of the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”? Is there any solid evidence for what some call a “cheap grace” that requires no effort, no obedience, no sincere repentance, no discipleship, no patience? No. Rather, we see a God who urges men to sacrifice, to take up their cross, to come and follow Him. His Sermon on the Mount is entirely focused on the works that we need to do to become his children.”
QUESTION: IS THERE?? (im sure you focused on the “works” part, but please clarify if there is such a scripture that says once saved, always saved. i have very specifically posted scripture stating that we cannot blaspheme, and there is therefore at least one way to “stop” being saved”
11. “Christians can fall from grace! That is why we must endure to the end to be saved,”
12.“Though we are saved by grace, we can also fall from grace and lose our salvation. Thus, we need to be careful lest we lose the gift Christ offers.”
13. “The message is clear: if we turn again to sin and abandon the way of righteousness, we will not be saved.”
PLEASE SEE BLASPHEMING AGAIN….. (FOR 11-13)
14. “To remove all doubt on this issue, let us return to the words of Christ. Twice he was asked point blank what needs to be done to obtain eternal life. His answer? Keep the commandments!”
15. “Does commandment keeping save us? Absolutely not, though Christ tells us that we must keep His commandments (strive to obey Him) if we would have eternal life. But it is by His grace that we are saved – and how we need that grace! How we need to be saved from our sins and our fallen nature. ”
i answer these jointly, because they go together. WE ARE SAVED THROUGH CHRIST, HE made this covenant with us (A TWO WAY PROMISE) and HE gets to decide what we have to do for him. THE LAW was not negated, it was fulfilled. believe it or not, from the moment you are born, you are born into the law. from the moment you accept Christ, He pays your debt. the law is still in effect, otherwise from the moment of Christ’s death NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO ACCEPT HIM.
16. i see the list of sin is pretty well filled out, im not reposting it.
17. Your quote: “Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
you left out part.. let me post it as 18
18. “assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us”
What formula, might you ask? i dont know… maybe accepting Christ? WHOLEHEARTEDLY.
19. Bottom line, in spite of being told I don’t understand any of this, it is perfectly clear as to what “after all we can do” means and all of this means that you are not under Biblical grace you are under grace + your efforts which is not grace at all.
AGAIN with the free will thing. you can choose not to add your efforts. feel free to see where that lands you. (i thought we clarified that with faith would be dead, and therefore needed something to keep said faith alive… WORKS)
Next post of choose:
To me, Mormons are modern day Judaizers, except they have replaced OT law with LDS law. As seen in my previous post, any Mormon who believes that they are saved by keeping LDS laws and ordinances must do so by keeping them 100% and since this is NOT possible how many of them will be exalted? I would think none, so then, what is the point in participating in LDS ordinances that mean nothing unless you are 100% free from sin?
DIFFERENT LEVELS OF HEAVEN. please read up on and fully understand our different levels. this will clear up much confusion that i see you having with what we consider “being saved” and what you consider “being saved” ( i havent fully read this, but here is a wiki post.. blast away! :P)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_glory
Shem: you are incorrect with this
“We simply add to this that it must be used” (referring to grace)
we do not add this, it says in the bible that we must work if we have faith in the saving grace. i hope this was simply a slip with all the “adding and taking away from” talk recently. LDS does not teach anything not in line with the Bible. (there is one problem i have found with the LDS. i will openly admit this. i will not tell you what it is, cause that will open a whole separate can of worms. it is NOT scripture related, and it is not “fruits” related) :)
Echo and Shem: stop fighting as it is getting us nowhere in the understanding of each others religious beliefs. Echo, i dont know to what you are implying Shem has been deceitful about, and i have done my very best to read every post in this debate. If you would, please post specific examples so that those of us that did not catch it may evaluate.
Shem: to this…
ECHO
Once again, shut up.
Bad form man… bad form…
David:
While i dont agree with completely dismissing someone, i appreciate the conviction. I would however like an answer to his post, so as to better understand your system of beliefs. If you wont, because of your conviction to discount everything shem says, that is understandable, and ask if you see any problems in my response in this post. if there are, let the discussing continue!
Josh, I read your whole post, I am not going to respond to everything because I would like to spare you from having to read a post that would probably end up 10 times longer than yours. To which you then would need to respond. So if you would like me to address something in particular that I missed, please bring it up again and I will respond.
Josh said: ““As to the analogy of us drowning”
Someone replied that it is not like we are drowning, but we are already dead (i dont have the time to scroll up right now…..) If we were already dead (physically) i could not be typing on here, and (spiritually) i would not have the chance to accept Christ, so every attempt you made to help me understand said principle would be in vain.
None of us are dead yet. this is not to say Christ could not resurrect us from either death, but there are rules God plays by as well (i am the same yesterday, today, and forever)”
I am the one that said we are dead so I will respond to that for you.
We are spiritually dead not physically dead. As I stated, I think in another thread, I don’t believe in decision theology (i.e. accepting Christ into our hearts, turning our lives over to Christ, free will prior to and in conversion like evangelicals do). I am not an Evangelical, I am a Lutheran. So when you say that if we are spiritually dead that we cannot accept Christ, I would agree with you completely on that. I believe we are spiritually dead and therefore cannot accept Christ. He must choose us and resurrect us from being spiritually dead.
Ephesians 2:1 “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins”
Ephesians 2:4-5 “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved”
John 1:13 “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”
Josh said: “If you would, please post specific examples so that those of us that did not catch it may evaluate.”
…read aprox. posts 41 and down or more if you wish.
Josh said: “Echo and Shem: stop fighting as it is getting us nowhere in the understanding of each others religious beliefs.”
Thank you. I have been trying to make this point to Shem for years but he still continues with all the personal attacks without change. I have tried everything I can think of to make him stop but he just carries on. I admit I sin by running out of patience with him at times.
Josh-
“In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.” ~LDS.org
Answer: while this taken at face value obviously goes against what i have been saying, this is not to be taken at said value. This is a reference to different degrees of heaven.
This does go against what you have been saying and was taken from Gospel Topics, Gospel Library and is the LDS definition of “Ordinance”. There was no mention of varying degrees of heaven.
Now you are trying to tell me that LDS definitions of LDS terms are not to be taken at face value? Where exactly is your logic in that?
I want you to look at this: “These ordinances are called saving ordinances.”
This is quite clear to me. As I stated before, based on the LDS definition of grace and the LDS definition of ordinance, Christ is not savior to the LDS. Christ is your “helper”. He helps you to attain your salvation or exaltation, but he is not your savior.
My Jesus is savior:
Grace is simple. It is not a complicated system of laws and ordinances. We work from our salvation because we are thankful for what Christ did for us. We do not work for our salvation because grace is a free gift as per my previous definition of grace.
LDS salvation is merited by actions “saved by grace after all we can do”. You can only be exalted by keeping ordinances and the ordinances are the “after all we can do” part.
Is it possible that you are the one who does not understand what your church teaches?
Josh-
“With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.”
QUESTION: After accepting Christ as your savior, is it possible to make a Covenant with him?????
My marriage is an example of a covenant. I made a promise before God when I entered into marriage. However, covenants I have made with the Lord are not required for my salvation. No where in the Bible does it say that marriage or keeping my marriage covenant is required for my salvation.
Here is the problem with your question:
We make promises to keep God’s commandments, but keeping those commandments is not what saves us. The work of Jesus alone saves us and it is through Him that we are able to work on keeping the commandments.
Here is the cold hard reality of what Mormonism teaches: Mormonism teaches that it is possible to achieve a state of sinless perfection which is required for your exaltation.
“Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin,” Kimball writes. The objective of repentance, he writes, is to obtain “perfection” as a prerequisite for achieving “immortality and eternal life. … This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
As stated by one of your prophets, and please do not tell me that he doesn’t understand LDS teachings either, in order to “progress toward eternal life” you must keep ALL of the commandments perfectly!!! You MUST live ALL of the commandments in order to achieve this.
What this is saying is that anytime you commit any of the sins given in my previous list from the Miracle of Forgiveness, you take yourself out of the ballgame. I seriously doubt any of you are running to your bishop everytime you commit a transgression:
Kimball defines repentance as the perfect, successful abandonment of sin, through the following actions:
1.conviction, in which “the sinner consciously recognizes his sin.”
2.abandonment of sin
3.confession to church authorities and/or other parties wronged by the sin
4.restitution
5.keeping God’s commandments
6.forgiving others
By the way, successful abandonment means you can NEVER repeat your sin. Are you going to seriously tell me now that any of you are capable of doing this? And remember you may be able to fool the brethren, but you can’t fool God.
Josh-
IF God is the same forever, and covenants have always had a YOU MUST DO SOMETHING FOR THIS clause, it stands to reason something must be done for this covenant as well. and also THE TRUTH IS THAT WE ARE SAVED BY THE GRACE OF CHRIST
This statement shows me that you do not understand the Jesus that is taught in the Bible. Christ fulfilled the law which means that we are no longer under OT law or covenants. We do not “do something for this”, He DID it!!!! Christ paid for our sins. The Bible says all we have to do to be saved is to BELIEVE this! The “something” that we “do” in keeping His commandments comes after we are saved. Jesus saves us first and then we follow Him and keep His commandments.
We are saved by GRACE: Grace means free gift. In Greek, it is the word, charis, which is literally a free gift.
We don’t need to “do something” to receive a free gift other than accept it.
Note again the difference between Biblical grace and Mormon Grace:
LDS definition of Grace: Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
“Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected” Big deal. Yes, everyone will be resurrected. Unfortunately, the Bible does not say that being ressurrected is any gaurantee that you will be saved from eternity in the lake of fire for after the resurrection comes judgement. The Bible says in order to be saved from your sins and eternity in the lake of fire, you have to BELIEVE that Jesus ALONE saved you!
LDS grace is not SAVING grace. LDS grace is Christ helping you to keep ordinances/covenants.
So, where are you in the process of LDS grace? Are you keeping 100% of the ordinances and are you 100% free from sin today? Is Jesus doing his part for you today? When do you think Jesus will help you to achieve a life that is 100% perfectly free from sin?
Josh-
8. “Mercy and forgiveness from God is a gift, but we must meet the conditions God has given to receive that gift. We must repent and humbly follow Christ.”
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS? If you dont repent, Christ does not accept you. even the very basic of Christian Churches teach this.. if you dont know you have to repent (at least once) to be “saved”, we need to be having a completely different talk.
Here is what is wrong with this: the Biblical condition for this is along with repentance is BELIEF in the work of Christ on the cross! We must repent and BELIEVE!!!! I repent and BELIEVE, the work of Christ saves me, THEN I take up my cross and follow Him by keeping His commandments.
The LDS conditions for this are keeping 100% of the ordinances and commandments. You repent, become a member of the LDS church, get baptized, get married in the temple, etc, etc, etc, sin, repent, repeat the sin (which takes you back to square one in being unforgiven), start over with the process of LDS repentance, and hope that you are 100% free from sin and have achieved LDS perfection by the time you die so that you may be exalted. The truth for you is that you won’t really know if you are saved until the day you die. How exactly will you know when you have been good enough? Not during this life. Play the game and take your chances. Maybe you will be good enough, maybe not.
Josh-
QUESTION: do you get to accept Christ and sit on your hands? i know a lot of answers have been that this is not what you choose to do. that is not in the line of answers i am looking for. yes or no to this, if you would please.
Like I said before, I accepted Christ, He saved me, I go straight to heaven when I die to live with God for all eternity.
Do I sit on my hands, NO I do not. I am following Christ and striving to keep His commandments. However, if I fail at keeping His commandments, I am still saved and will still live with God for all eternity. That is what justification in the blood of Christ is all about. You understand the covenant of blood atonement don’t you? The blood atonement of Christ is the FINAL blood atonement for sins. A FINAL blood atonement means that ALL of my sins are already covered with HIS blood. This is FINAL justification! This is not a license to sin as I need to remove sin from my life in order to maintain a right relationship with God which repentance is a part of which is the whole point of what God wants from us. It is not about keeping ordinances! It is about maintaining a right relationship with God!
For the LDS there is NO FINAL blood atonement for sin. By placing yourselves under law and ordinances of the LDS church, you must live a 100% perfect, sin free life. Good luck with that!
Josh-
10. “Is there any hint of the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”? Is there any solid evidence for what some call a “cheap grace” that requires no effort, no obedience, no sincere repentance, no discipleship, no patience? No. Rather, we see a God who urges men to sacrifice, to take up their cross, to come and follow Him. His Sermon on the Mount is entirely focused on the works that we need to do to become his children.”
QUESTION: IS THERE?? (im sure you focused on the “works” part, but please clarify if there is such a scripture that says once saved, always saved. i have very specifically posted scripture stating that we cannot blaspheme, and there is therefore at least one way to “stop” being saved”
Again, you do not seem to understand the covenant of blood atonement!
Blood atonement is a COVENANT:
In the Old testament, God made a covenant with the Israelites, in which people were bound to the word “sacrifice,” in order to cleanse them from sin and reconcile them to God. After all this God simply required them to be absolutely obedient to Him, and he would bless them. So the agreement was made. The covenant would only exist if the conditions were met, if not, it was done away with. Deuteronomy 7:9, says He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His loving kindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and Keep His commandments;’, so we find that, for as long as the Israelites kept God’s commandments, He kept His part of the bargain to bless them. Conditions are not kept or met:- Hebrews 8:7, For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
We should understand that the terms of God did not change in the new covenant. Hebrews 10: 16-17, reads “This is the COVENANT that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, and upon their mind I will write them,” He then said ” and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” And the ultimate goal is to present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be Holy and blameless, Ephesians 5:27. It is important to understand the part blood played in the Law of atonement and that it is the means by which Christ Cleanses us from dead works, if we believe that He bled for us. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, Ephesians 1:7. Luke 22:19-20, Jesus said, “This is My body which is given for you” and v20, “this cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
The TRUE miracle of forgiveness: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses!!
The LDS have no forgiveness under the blood of Christ. You are not forgiven unless you are living a perfect life 100% free from sin!
Josh-
THE LAW was not negated, it was fulfilled. believe it or not, from the moment you are born, you are born into the law. from the moment you accept Christ, He pays your debt. the law is still in effect, otherwise from the moment of Christ’s death NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO ACCEPT HIM.
The law is NOT what saves us! Christ fulfilled the law! I am forgiven under the blood of Christ!
The LDS must follow “The Miracle of Forgiveness” in order to obtain this.
Josh-
17. Your quote: “Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
you left out part.. let me post it as 18
18. “assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us”
What formula, might you ask? i dont know… maybe accepting Christ? WHOLEHEARTEDLY.
You don’t know? Did you read ANY of what I have posted regarding what your church teaches????
I think you are the one who does not understand LDS teachings!
The formula is THE BLOOD OF CHRIST and accepting HIM WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!!!!!!!!
The LDS formula is living ALL of the commandments because “Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us”.
My perfection comes from the Blood of Christ!
When are you going to ACCEPT the blood of CHRIST WHOLEHEARTEDLY??
Mark,
You must have struck a nerve with our Mormon apologists here.
Their worship of themselves being a god of their own plant…. where else does one get such, certianly not from the Bible ?
Josh-
DIFFERENT LEVELS OF HEAVEN. please read up on and fully understand our different levels. this will clear up much confusion that i see you having with what we consider “being saved” and what you consider “being saved” ( i havent fully read this, but here is a wiki post.. blast away! :P)
It is not what I consider “being saved” it is what GOD considers being saved!
There are not different levels of heaven (from http://carm.org/different-levels-of-heaven):
No, there are not different levels of heaven. When you’re in, you’re in. There may be different levels of reward, but the Bible never tells us that there are different levels of heaven.
However, the Bible does speak of the “heavens” (plural) in different ways. The “third heaven” is said to exist in 2 Cor. 12:2, which says, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.” It is logical to conclude that if there is a third heaven, there is also a first and second. But, Scripture does not describe specifically the first and second heaven by mentioning them as such. Instead, we can see how the Bible speaks of different heavens by looking at Scripture.
The first heaven apparently refers to the atmospheric area of the birds (Hosea 2:18) and clouds (Dan. 7:13). The second heaven is the area of the stars and planets (Gen. 1:14-18), and some say is also the abode of all supernatural angelic beings. The third heaven is the dwelling place of the triune God. Its location is unrevealed. (See Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 10:20; and Rev. 22:2, 20-27).
Josh-
How about the fact that there is archaeological PROOF that men where in the Americas before people came across on the land bridge?
I had saved an email from long ago, but deleted it recently… to bad, or i could prove to you golden plates similar to that found by Joseph exist. i believe it was in Bolivia? but i could be mistaken on this
Logic- Unless you saw Joseph’s plates, how do you know anything possibly found in Bolivia are similar and how does that prove Joseph’s plates exist? Plus, the BOM was translated out of a hat with a peep stone.
According to the Book of Mormon:
“This is an account of the history of the peoples of the Americas according to the Book of Mormon. The First Book of Nephi describes the family of Lehi, a descendant of Joseph, Son of Jacob,1 and his wife Sariah, who lived in Jerusalem about 600 B.C. The Lord warned Lehi to depart out of the land of Jerusalem, because they were seeking to kill him because he had prophesied to the people concerning their iniquity. Lehi had four sons. Lehi’s youngest son, Nephi, was more righteous than Laman, the firstborn, so he became the leader.
Nephi was told to build a ship to travel to a new promised land.2 He and his brothers and their wives and a few other people landed in the Americas ~592 B.C.3 From there, division arose among the brothers Nephi and Laman. The Nephites kept the law of Moses and constructed a temple. The unbelief of the Lamanites led God to put a curse of black skin on them, whereas the Nephites were still “white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome.”4
The Book of Mormon claims that the Native American populations are descended from the Lamanites, who lived in ancient Israel 2,600 years ago. This concept is stated several times throughout the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants:
•“…Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel..” (Book of Mormon:Title Page 1:2)
•“…the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians” (Book of Mormon:Introduction Preface:1-2)
•“…I speak unto you [Lamanites], ye remnant of the house of Israel; and these are the words which I speak:
Know ye that ye are of the house of Israel.” (Book of Mormon:Mormon 7:1-2)
•“Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant…” (Doctrine and Covenants: Section 19:27)”
Logic- What does your claim of “proof” have anything to do with the fact that your church claims the Native Americans are descended from Israel?
Scientific fact-
“Scientific studies conclusively show that the major claim of the Book of Mormon that Israelites are the principle ancestors of Native Americans is false. In fact, there are no Native American populations that share ancestry with Israelites. Attempts to wiggle out of the obviously false claims of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants simply invalidate large amounts of Mormon “scripture.”
quotes taken from: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
Josh-
How exactly does a Christian Preacher teach with any kind of authority?
What makes you think a saved, educated, Christian does not have God’s calling, anointing, or authority.
Christian pastors are educated, called, anointed, and as all Christians, have Christ’s authority.
Colossians 2:10
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
Luke 9:1, 2 says, Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Mark 13:34 tells us, for the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. … And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:15, 17, 18.
Clearly, Jesus has promised His authority to those who are His own.
Josh
I will be glad to respond to Shem’s post in repsonse to mine for you. I’ll probably respond to Shem at some point in time in the future, but I’m going I’m going to take a wait and see approach on that. I just see it as unproductive and a waste of time to try to respond to posts claiming I took positions I never did.
Here is an example of what I am talking about?
I was asked to agree or disagree on his questions. His 1st question to me was:
“1. Faith is the power by which salvation is made possible.”
My answer was:
“1. disagree – Faith is trusting that Jesus did everything necessary to get us into heaven without any of our own works being required.”
His response was:
“So you are denying that it is through faith that we are saved. The problem is that I never stated what are faith had to be in, but what the result of that faith was. You have disagreed with what it is, but have not actually addressed what you believe concerning what it does.”
Now I ask you Josh, does my reply indicate to you that I deny that it is through faith we are saved?
Now skip to his last sentence, “You have disagreed with what it is, . . etc.”
Well, his question to me was whether I agreed or disagreed with what faith is, and he says “you have disgreed with what it is”, but now he finds fault with my answer because I didn’t address “what it does.” Well, he did n’t ask me what it does. Then he concludes that I never addressed 3 of the 7 questions related to faith. See what I mean?
At any rate, here is what I’d like to respond to in his post. On the seven questions I answered for Shem, my definition of faith didn’t comport with his, but that is my definition of faith. What do I think faith does? Faith is the means by which we receive God’s grace. Faith is given by God, either we have it or we don’t. You said something in you long post to Choose that I think fits into this discussion:
“you can choose not to add your efforts. feel free to see where that lands you. (i thought we clarified that with faith would be dead, and therefore needed something to keep said faith alive… WORKS)”
That statement right there (and thats not the only one certainly) tells me why you value works so much. You don’t want to lose your faith. I don’t want to lose mine either. It is the most precious possession I have. Here is the difference, and it seems to me this goes the heart of why we are here on this blog. Josh you say “God is same yesterday today and forever.” I agree – God doesn’t change. He has always had a plan of salvation for us and we would be underestimating God’s power if we didn’t believe He could carry out His plan from begining to end perfectly. Part of that plan was His “Word” (the Bible) another part of that plan was “the Word became Flesh” (Jesus). Remember that the “Word was God” (Jesus) — it can’t be corrupted and it can’t be defeated. His word enures forever, throughout all generations. How do you protect your faith? Here is how: “17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. ” Romans 10:17 It is the Holy Spirit working through the Word which creates and maintains faith. God does that for you when you stay in his word and receive His sacraments. Josh – works do NOT keep faith alive. God’s Word does that and the LDS church has taken that away from you by teaching you not to trust His Word and trust only what they tell you to believe about what it says, as it is been altered by false doctrine.
Only God’s word creates and protects faith. Works are nothing but evidence. NOWHERE in scripture does anyone ever say that works maintain or make faith – NOWHERE. I trust in God’s power to protect the means He established for Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection to be credited to us – that means is faith – faith in HIS Word, faith in His ability to carry out the promise he made (just like Abraham trusted God and it was credited to him and righteousness), faith in Christ to live and give His perfect life in our place, faith that in Christ we have been and are right now perfect in God’s eyes.
You’re probably saying “But we have to do something don’t we – to get this forgiveness?” “I must do works, I must do works.” NO! Never! Never to get forgiveness. We do something to show our gratitude because he already has forgiven us, for saving us, for giving us hearts like His, that want to serve Him. If you do works to get forgiveness all you are doing is showing how much faith you do NOT have. And you can take no comfort in the three levels of Kingdoms because they do not exist. There is only Heaven and Hell, believers and unbelievers. When Jesus died He did much more – MUCH MORE – than the LDS church gives him credit for, He loves you far more than you could ever imagine, He GAVE HIS LIFE for you and the last thing he wants is for you not to trust in His eternal incorruptable Word. 2 Nephi 25:23 directly contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ and you cans see that most profoundly in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3. Aside from the LDS treatment of God’s grace, where have you ever in your entire life seen any “gift” that came with terms of payment and conditions?. See Romans 10
Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Works DO NOT make faith profit us. Looking at works for faith or to keep faith alive is looking in the wrong place. Works that are FROM faith (as James 2 is discussing) comes AFTER faith is already living and present and that FAITH COMES from hearing the WORD, not another gospel.
ECHO
I have been trying to get you to realize the same thing. Isn’t it funny.
CHOOSE
“Do I sit on my hands, NO I do not.”
This does not really answer Josh’s question though. He did not ask if you do, but if you can. There is a big difference.
Try it this way: If I accepted Christ, and He saved me, so that when I die I go strait to heaven to live with God for all eternity, can I then willingly choose to go and commit mass murder without any fear of loosing that salvation that I have gained?
This is the question. Please answer with a simple yes or no.
“This statement shows me that you do not understand the Jesus that is taught in the Bible. Christ fulfilled the law which means that we are no longer under OT law or covenants. We do not “do something for this”, He DID it!!!! Christ paid for our sins. The Bible says all we have to do to be saved is to BELIEVE this! The “something” that we “do” in keeping His commandments comes after we are saved. Jesus saves us first and then we follow Him and keep His commandments.”
So what you are saying is that Christ has changed the way he deals with people. Those under the Old Testament Law had to work for their salvation, but since that is fulfilled and we are no longer under it we don’t have to do anything.
Josh’s point is that this teaches a changing God, which is against the Bible.
JBR
“Their worship of themselves being a god of their own plant”
I still don’t know where you get it from, cause it certainly isn’t LDS doctrine.
JOSH
I know it was bad form. I have always struggled with my temper, and I do try to keep it in check, but it does slip out at times. I do apologize for any insult, and I do plan on keeping things more civilized.
Now, I think we need to clarify a few things regard LDS doctrine in order that people might understand more fully what we are talking about when it comes to works, faith, grace and salvation.
First, we must talk about the major divisions of eternity: Heaven and Hell. In this context salvation means we enter heaven, while damnation means we are cast into hell. In this basic understanding this is the LDS doctrine: Anyone who does not commit the Unpardonable Sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost will enter Heaven. That is because Christ has suffered the atonement, and through this has redeemed all men from Hell, with the noted exception. Without this redeeming power of Christ all men would be condemned to Hell, regardless of what they had done.
Second, we must speak of the condition of those in Heaven, or the secondary division of eternity: The degrees of glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial). Now, I understand no one else accepts this doctrine, but it must be understood to actually understand what we believe.
For those who live a life of wickedness and depravity there is reserved the lowest reward of the Telestial Kingdom. These are the one who openly rebelled against God; murderers, adulterers, idolaters, etc.
For those who have lived basically righteous lives, but who have not the faith in Christ there is reserved a kind of middle reward in the Terrestrial Kingdom. These are those who are honorable men, just in their dealing, but who do not conform to the requirements of the gospel ordinances.
For those who have the faith to accept Christ and enter into a covenant with him there is reserved the higher reward of the Celestial Kingdom, the highest of which is reserved for those who conform to all covenants that Christ has given.
It should also be noted that no matter what Kingdom one is in they will always be in the Presence of God, for Holy Ghost minister to the Telestial, Christ to the Terrestrial, and the Father to the Celestial; and all three of these beings are God.
So, it is by the Grace of God that we are lifted out of eternal torment in Hell and brought into Heaven. In this way Christ is the redeemer of the world. It is also through his grace that we are enabled to comply with his laws and thus gain the greatest rewards in heaven.
Most often when the term Salvation is used by the LDS leaders and in the scriptures it is speaking of gaining the highest reward in heaven.
So, to set the record strait in a more simple way: It is by Grace that we are saved from Hell and Death, but it is our works that determine the reward we receive (As is said in Revelation20: 12-13)
Shem said: “ECHO I have been trying to get you to realize the same thing. Isn’t it funny.”
*smile* We are two pea’s in one pod :) (A friendly comment intended in goodwill)
Let’s be friends, alright? I do admire your zeal and passion.
Echo:
I would say that to not distinguish Luteran from Many other christian beliefs is not the best, but clarifying this point helps alot. There are many CHRISTIANS that reject your theory of free will and agree with mine. To try and pass yours as all of christian belief would be incorrect.
Choose:
There are different levels of heaven, as is reported in the bible. It males sense that there would be different requirements. Exaltation means something different than merely “being saved”. To further discuss this, please research the levels. When we talk about this stuff Iin church settings, we are talking about celestial exaltation, vs merely making it to heaven.
As to being ABLE to abandon ALL SIN, through Christ this is possible. Whether I have or not should never be your focus, whether I am spiritually able may be of concern, as you should help we to grow closer.to.Christ (ie: dont take me to a crack house with hookers…)
More answers and questions later… Phone is horrid to try and reply to yall on….
Shem …. com’ on man. “I still don’t know where you get it from, cause it certainly isn’t LDS doctrine.”
Like I said sometime ago, you wantonly don’t put the links together.
1) Heavenly Father is an exalted man
2) this exalted man has spirit children with his wife\ves
3) this exalted man sends the “spirit children” down to earth to prove themself worthy
4) thus we now have “Shem”
5) Shem worships this exalted man aka Heavenly Father
..
Lets connect the dots:
• proving one’s worthiness takes ages to accomplish
• + I have the potential to ‘grow up’ and become like Him.”
• + “I do believe that I am literally a spirit child of God the Father”
• + Shem is a physical person
• + Shem is on a planet
• + Shem is going ‘grow up’ and become like Him.”
• = ultimatly your final stopping point of “progression” is to become a god of your own planet
Shem ….
Since Heavenly Father is an exalted man (who was just like you)
And this exalted man worshiped his Heavenly Father (just like you)
Then why isn’t ok for your spirit children to worship you? (“just like Him”)
Why does your “Grand Father” allow idolatry
ECHO
I am all for being friends.
JBR
You have no understanding. You take only the very minimum of our doctrine and try to draw conclusions from it, and then try to apply this to all who believe.
Personally, I really don’t care. There are many members who do have this belief, for the very reasons that you have outlined. It really doesn’t matter. When we are exalted, for those who are found worthy, the workings of heaven will be made clear, and either this view will be confirmed or denied. Right now it doesn’t matter, which is why I generally don’t talk about it.
However, let me outline a few things as to why I disagree with this logic.
First, we read in the King Follett Discourse that “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” So, Heavenly Father, the great Elohim does not work alone, but works as the head of many other gods in a counsel.
Then we read the creation account in the Book of Abraham (and I don’t care if you believe it, as we are discussing LDS doctrine) that it was the Gods that organized and planned the work. So even in the grand creation our Father was not alone.
In the book of Moses we read that “The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man…And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to [God’s] works.” (Moses 1: 37-38) In the same chapter we learn that all these earths are peopled with the children of God.
The last point I will make is that of the nature of Christ. He states himself that “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do” (John 5: 19) which agrees with what Joseph Smith said in the King Follett Discourse “Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.” These two references clearly teach that Christ was able to perform the atonement because the Father had done so at a previous time.
And finally Christ says “go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20: 17) indicating that our Heavenly Father is not our father in the same way that he is the Father of Christ. This is confirmed in D&C 76 24 when it says that we are “begotten sons and daughters unto God.” Notice that we are not begotten of God, but unto him.
What does all this mean? It means that, as far as I am concerned, and what fits more perfectly with the scriptures, I will be a member of a counsel of gods, with Christ at the head. Together we will work to create innumerable worlds on which our children will live. On one of those planets Christ’s oldest son will be born, and he will do what his Father has done before him, that is perform an atonement through which the children of all the gods will be saved. Because of this my children, though they will eventually acknowledge me as their literal father, they will worship Jesus Christ as their Heavenly Father, and his son as their Savior. They will be sons and daughters born to me, but born unto Christ.
This is what I look forward to. I have no desire to be worshiped. That honor belongs to the head, who will be Jesus. That honor also belongs to his Son. I do, however, desire to live in the same state as my Heavenly Father and all the other gods of His generation, to have a fullness of every attribute of perfect, and have my family continue throughout eternity.
Shem said: “ECHO
I am all for being friends.”
That’s good news Shem.
Shem said “Most often when the term Salvation is used by the LDS leaders and in the scriptures it is speaking of gaining the highest reward in heaven.”
Josh said “Exaltation means something different than merely “being saved”. To further discuss this, please research the levels. When we talk about this stuff Iin church settings, we are talking about celestial exaltation, vs merely making it to heaven.”
I have done the research, am aware of the teachings on the different levels and this changes nothing about anything I had previously stated.
Shem-
Josh’s question and my answer:
QUESTION: do you get to accept Christ and sit on your hands? Do I sit on my hands, NO I do not.
Your response: This does not really answer Josh’s question though. He did not ask if you do, but if you can. There is a big difference.
This does answer Josh’s question. Christians accept Christ and then follow Him by keeping his commands. I think everyone here would appreciate it if you would stop translating what everyone has said. ;)
Shem said “So what you are saying is that Christ has changed the way he deals with people. Those under the Old Testament Law had to work for their salvation, but since that is fulfilled and we are no longer under it we don’t have to do anything.
Josh’s point is that this teaches a changing God, which is against the Bible.”
This does not teach a changing God, it does however show that you do not understand the concept of blood atonement. It is not that we “don’t have to do anything”, it is that the things we “do” are done after we are saved and are not required to receive that salvation. This teaches the same God who has given the old covenant and who has given the new covenant. The blood of Christ is more to me. It is salvation.
The Bible is clear that the Blood of Christ is the final blood atonement needed for the forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:15
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 9:28
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:10
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
made holy- justified and now experiencing the process of continuing sanctification.
Justification
Is the judicial act of God alone, alone outside the sinner; but in Christ (Isaiah. 53:11; Romans 5:8-9; 2 Corinthians: 5:19).
Romans 3:28
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Justification is a free gift of God, not dependent upon any good works that we do (Romans 5:16; 6:23; Galatians 3:29; Ephesians 1:5-6; Revelation 22:17).
Sanctification
Is that act of God within the sinner in which God works with the new man in a life-long process of restoration (Phillipians 2:12-13; 3:12; Colossians 3:2-5; Titus 2:11-12).
Because of the joy of our salvation, we respond to God’s unconditional love by serving one another (Matthew 7:16; Romans 6:22;1 Corinthians 10:31; Ephesians 2:10; 5:2,8; Colossians 2:6; 1 Peter 4:10; 2 John 1:6; Revelation 3:20).
Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The blood of Christ has made me perfect which is in contradiction to the LDS teaching:
“This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
For the LDS, Christ has not made you perfect, you have to make you perfect by living a life perfectly free of sin and you can’t do this. The LDS teaching on this contradicts the Bible.
Hebrews 10:16-18
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
The LDS are not trusting completely in the blood of Christ and the new covenant of God, they are not putting their trust in what God has promised!
Hebrews 11:3
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
God formed the Universe at His command out of NOTHING, which the LDS contradict with their god creating out of matter.
Hebrews 11:39-40
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Biblical faith- trust, confidence in, or assurance in God.
Hebrews 7:11
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
“The idea of attaining salvation through self-effort and good works is a fundamental characteristic of human nature. But try as hard as one will, he cannot remove the guilt and penalty of his own sins.” (Lehman Strauss, ‘Doctrine of Salvation’) or in the case of Mormons exaltation.
The Bible teaches that salvation is by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It cannot be earned and it has nothing whatever to do with church membership, religious rituals or obedience to religious laws and ordinances. It is purely a personal transaction between the Saviour and the sinner. The repentant sinner puts his faith in Christ for salvation, and Christ saves him. In other words, Christ is the sole vehicle of his salvation: He alone paid the price and He alone has the authority and the power to save us:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6, KJV)
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12, KJV)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24, KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ….. (Titus 3:5, KJV)
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43, KJV)
Some people think that because God is loving, merciful and compassionate, He couldn’t possibly send anyone to hell. But He made a colossal sacrifice to provide a way for us to escape this terrible fate. So if we choose to spurn His sacrifice, we’ll be bringing the judgment of hell upon ourselves.
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thessalonians 1:9 KJV)
Mormon’s are contradicting the Bible by teaching a general salvation (resurection) of all mankind even if they do not recognize Christ as savior and by teaching an individual, exalted salvation that can be gained based on what they do.
The problem with this is that all who are resurected will not go to heaven. All will be judged and those who have not put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation will go to hell for all eternity.
The bottom line: Those of us who have put our faith in Christ alone for our salvation are perfect right now. The LDS are working on their perfection which they can not obtain for it is not possible.
Shem said “Most often when the term Salvation is used by the LDS leaders and in the scriptures it is speaking of gaining the highest reward in heaven.”
Josh said “Exaltation means something different than merely “being saved”. To further discuss this, please research the levels. When we talk about this stuff Iin church settings, we are talking about celestial exaltation, vs merely making it to heaven.”
Question for Shem and Josh….
When you use the term “saved” is that referring to heaven (all 3 kingdoms) or just the Celestial Kingdom?
Choose: “This statement shows me that you do not understand the Jesus that is taught in the Bible. Christ fulfilled the law which means that we are no longer under OT law or covenants. We do not “do something for this”, He DID it!!!! Christ paid for our sins. The Bible says all we have to do to be saved is to BELIEVE this! The “something” that we “do” in keeping His commandments comes after we are saved. Jesus saves us first and then we follow Him and keep His commandments.
TO take an excerpt: THE SOMETHING WE DO COMES AFTER WE ARE SAVED
sorry for second post.. my comp fritzed.. anyways.. The above is exactly what i have been trying to tell you… (third post simply to keep thoughts together)
“So, where are you in the process of LDS grace? Are you keeping 100% of the ordinances and are you 100% free from sin today? Is Jesus doing his part for you today? When do you think Jesus will help you to achieve a life that is 100% perfectly free from sin?”
This is not your concern. your concern SHOULD be whether Christ CAN provide the ability for me to remain sinless.. (which i have posted scriptural reference that says he can. IF he can provide said ability, it is not outside of my mortal boundaries.)
To this:
“No, there are not different levels of heaven. When you’re in, you’re in. There may be different levels of reward, but the Bible never tells us that there are different levels of heaven. ”
you say reward, i say heaven. if you understood that there are different levels of anything, we are on essentially the same page. my appologies for that which may have seemed “misleading”
To this: “What makes you think a saved, educated, Christian does not have God’s calling, anointing, or authority.”
My question here is very specifically to how it was they received the Holy Ghost. I posted above how those who “bought” the power have no place in God’s kingdom. and i listed two other ways with which i knew that one could preach with authority. i asked for a # (1-3) for how your preacher preaches.
To This: “Now I ask you Josh, does my reply indicate to you that I deny that it is through faith we are saved?”
I misread, and appreciate the clarification.
To this: “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” this statement says to me, works without faith will do absolutely nothing for you. i can NOT make myself righteous, and have never claimed that i can. I claim through Christ everything i do will be judged.
And right above it: ““This statement shows me that you do not understand the Jesus that is taught in the Bible. Christ fulfilled the law which means that we are no longer under OT law or covenants”
We are under them. The law is not negated (as i stated in the other post, which is a very big reason why i believe this particular blog should not have been created. this was ONE discussion, not something that should have been broken apart… but i digress..) This Law is FULFILLED, not CANCELLED. If it was cancelled, we would ahve to do absolutely nothing. we would not even have to accept Christ. WE ARE UNDER THE LAW, and therefore MUST ACCEPT CHRIST. Christ pays for our lives. until the moment of payment (some say we are paid for the moment accept him, others say works are needed before you die) YOU ARE UNDER THE LAW.
Let me put it to you this way… I am going to go back to the garden of Eden, and substitute in some stuff….
Adam partook of Tree of Knowledge of G&E right? (this is where sin begins..) Adam must surely die, yes?
Adam was kicked out of Eden because: LEST HE LIVE FOREVER (IN SIN). To me, we cannot partake of the tree of life (Christ) until we have died, lest we continuously sin and live forever in said sin. (i know that is difficult to follow, but if you get it, you get it) :)
“You’re probably saying “But we have to do something don’t we – to get this forgiveness?” “I must do works, I must do works.” NO! Never! Never to get forgiveness.”
There is an INSTANT forgiveness, BUT! we must accept that appropriately.
please, seriously answer this yes or no.. CAN I accept Christ and turn around and murder someone, and still have the forgiveness that was given to me?
still more answers later… yall are getting way to fast for me :P
Josh said: “This is not your concern. your concern SHOULD be whether Christ CAN provide the ability for me to remain sinless.”
Christ HAS made us sinless already.
Josh said: “There is an INSTANT forgiveness, BUT! we must accept that appropriately”
Can you clarify this?
Josh said: “please, seriously answer this yes or no.. CAN I accept Christ and turn around and murder someone, and still have the forgiveness that was given to me?”
Are the murderers in the lowest LDS heaven forgiven?
Josh said “If it was cancelled, we would ahve to do absolutely nothing. we would not even have to accept Christ. WE ARE UNDER THE LAW, and therefore MUST ACCEPT CHRIST. Christ pays for our lives. until the moment of payment (some say we are paid for the moment accept him, others say works are needed before you die) YOU ARE UNDER THE LAW.”
Josh, you are missing it. I am NOT under the law for MY salvation.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
You are under the law for YOUR salvation.
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [LDS} Gospel. (Third Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).”
“Redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirements of the [Mormon] gospel, and a life of good works ….. The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith Alone has exercised an influence for evil” (Mormon Apostle James Talmage, Articles of Faith, pages 478-479 c/f the third LDS Article of Faith).
There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 670).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, page 188.)
I am forgiven of my sins, they are forgotten.
Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
I am perfect in Christ.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Your sins are not forgotten unless you have triumphed over sin 100%, you are not perfect until you are 100% free from sin.
“Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin,” Kimball writes. The objective of repentance, he writes, is to obtain “perfection” as a prerequisite for achieving “immortality and eternal life. … This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. … Being perfect means to triumph over sin.”
Josh
Are you or are you not, in any way, dependent on the laws and ordinances of the LDS church for your individual salvation?
Steph: welcome to the discussion
Salvation: yes. There are certain things one must do, and they must be done properly. Before I was LDS, I was 1 of the 100 types of Christian. Even then there were rules.. Like being baptized, repentance… And so on. I state that no one outside of the LDS Church has the authority to perform said baptism to my knowledge. There are sheep not of the fold that must also come unto Christ, which dictates there must needs be that ability outside of the recognized Church (like people in Iraq where LDS are not aloud to perdorm Baptisms)
Exaltation: yes. The rules of exaltation were given to our church. (different covenant that mere salvation).
I like how to defend my position, i am relegated to the Bible, cause cause no one else believes anything else, but it is okay for everyone to scrutize every word any LDS person has ever written. I dont hold personal writing, published or not as always being directed of God. I do believe there is a prophet that is on this earth to communicate what God would have him to communicate.
Josh
Tell me something. Why would Jesus though a prophet call those who rely on the Bible “fools?” See 2 Nephi 29 “. . . . Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?” When He Jesus (who does not change) himself said:
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” John 17:17
and this that Jesus said is repeated in 3 places said:
“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.” Mark 13:31 , Matthew 24:35 amd Luke 21:33.
And God in Proverbs says:
“Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:6
And in the Psalms says:
“5For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.” Psalm 100:5
“The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.”
Psalm 33:11
Is Jesus wrong? Is God not serious when he says not to add to His Word? Is it foolish to trust these words and God’s power to protect his Word?
Choose: “In whom we have redemption through his blood”
if this is true, so much also the converse: Without his blood, we have no redemption”
so… BEFORE CHRIST we are living under the Law, after said acceptance, we are no longer, we are living under a new law, or covenant.
Isaiah 2:2 It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
Isaiah 30:8 No, go in, write it on a tablet with them, And on a book engrave it, And it is for a latter day, for a witness unto the age,
Daniel 2:28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and he has made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head on your bed, are these:
I think Isaiah 30:8 nails down exactly what we believe the Book of Mormon to be..
As to this: “Tell me something. Why would Jesus though a prophet call those who rely on the Bible “fools?””
I will tell you why. to start, little if any of the old testament was written by the apostles themselves. most of it if i remember correctly was written ~300 years later, if not more.
2nd: When did the Bible become big and why? It became big because of a King (Good thing… Christianity was not completely obliterated) But who took control of it? Catholic Church.. Martin Luther Claims that the Catholics perverted said teachings, and began teaching on his own, as did baptists, and every other group out there.. Everybody wants to take their own turn at the pinata, breaking out of it the candy THEY choose. My point here is that they all flowed from one very corrupt teacher. Just because you think you have caught all the corruption, does not mean that you have. Any idea how the Bible itself was put together? a bunch of people sat around and “through inspiration” decided what stayed, and what went.. even as was discussed here a little bit ago (maybe on the newest blog posting) someone was discussing NIV vs KJV of the Bible. well, you know what, if they didnt get it right the first time, there is probably a reason for it. you dont get to accept any more books huh? well then, you need to reject everything except the original Greek writings, and learn to speak Greek very fluently, because i guarantee that SOMETHING has been lost in there. No way you say? well, then why are there “new” versions of the bible with just slightly different interpretations?
**** new testament***** written by apostles…
Josh said: “please, seriously answer this yes or no.. CAN I accept Christ and turn around and murder someone, and still have the forgiveness that was given to me?”
Are the murderers in the lowest LDS heaven forgiven?
I did not ask for my beliefs, i asked for yours.
why are my questions alwyas answered with a 6 page thesis when i ask simple yes or no questions?
Josh said: “This is not your concern. your concern SHOULD be whether Christ CAN provide the ability for me to remain sinless.”
Christ HAS made us sinless already.
He has not removed your ability to sin though. This is my point. you dont get one big repentance and a life to do whatever you choose. you CAN repent ONCE and REMAIN sinless.
Is Jesus wrong? Is God not serious when he says not to add to His Word?
He is saying dont make up crap. “dont add what you want, lest through MY word you be found a liar”
He is not saying he is going to stop talking to people forever. And if you claim that he is saying this, and that your “preacher” is “called” from God, you are contradicting yourself. You are adding to his word by interpreting yourself as being chosen by him, when the bible clearly chooses nobody by name to preach in 2012
Josh said “I will tell you why. to start, little if any of the old testament was written by the apostles themselves. most of it if i remember correctly was written ~300 years later, if not more.
2nd: When did the Bible become big and why? It became big because of a King (Good thing… Christianity was not completely obliterated) But who took control of it? Catholic Church.. Martin Luther Claims that the Catholics perverted said teachings, and began teaching on his own, as did baptists, and every other group out there.. Everybody wants to take their own turn at the pinata, breaking out of it the candy THEY choose. My point here is that they all flowed from one very corrupt teacher.”
Josh, your statements are revealing your ignorance and I think you owe it to yourself to do some research and educate yourself as to the true historical facts regarding the the Bible and early church history.
This may be a good place for you to start:
Here is a link to some mp3s that should give you enough information to investigate the claims presented regarding the accuracy of the Bible, how it came into being, authority, etc.
Until you do this, I’m afraid you and I will not be able to have an intelligent conversation.
Best wishes to you.
Please see latest blog thing for my link to apostasy and so on…
(Some) Christians to this day still believe they can pray through “saints”. Once you understand this, you understand their belief system is corrupt. If I were to base an entirely new religion off of a corrupt system, there HAS to be someyhing lost, the least of which being the authority to do certain things.
your link did not show either, perhaps because I am writing from my phone
Josh said: “Josh said: “please, seriously answer this yes or no.. CAN I accept Christ and turn around and murder someone, and still have the forgiveness that was given to me?” Are the murderers in the lowest LDS heaven forgiven? I did not ask for my beliefs, i asked for yours. why are my questions alwyas answered with a 6 page thesis when i ask simple yes or no questions?”
This question was answered already but in case you missed it, when God converts, he gives us a new heart that desires not to sin. I would question whether that person who murdered someone was truly converted to begin with.
Josh,
my question for you is…In your beliefs, can someone accept Christ and turn around and murder someone?
Sorry, it was me
http://www.washingtonheights.org/adults/fresh_start.php
The point in making an effort to listen to these mp3s, is to take the information presented, research the claims, and then come to a valid conclusion on your own. I highly encourge you to do this with an open mind as simply dismissing the information of hand will only add to your ignorance.
I realize that many LDS people are aware of and simply do not care about the evidence for historical Christianity, the reliability of the Bible, and the evidence against the LDS church. That is what we call blind faith and is illogical.
Praying through saints is not in my Bible. If I follow my Bible, I know what God has said regarding idolatry and know better about praying through saints. It religious systems of men are corrupt. I follow the same in regards to the LDS church. I can’t follow the LDS system of men because it is corrupt.
I don’t adhere to religion, I adhere to the teachings of Christ as presented in the Biblical gospel.
The burden is on you to prove to us what was “lost” and your claim that “something” has to have been lost is not enough to cut it. It is not logical to believe that an entire religious system such as Mormonism just vanished from the face of the Earth. Not one scrap of evidence exists to support your claim. I see hints of things like Catholisism, Greek philosophy, Protestantism, Reformationism/Restorationism, and other early heretical/pagan teachings in Mormonism, but the fact is that Mormonism is a new religion created by the man Joseph Smith.
BTW, it is not logical to apply logic to the Bible and not apply logic to your faith in the LDS religious system.
Josh,
Also, I have already investigated LDS claims to most everything they teach including their claims of apostasy and have found their claims to be untrue. Your links to LDS resources are of no benefit to me. You have to go to outside sources in order to make a rational, logical decision regarding things like this.
Historical evidence says an apostasy never happened. The Bible never went anywhere. The true gospel has been here all along.
Plus, Jesus himself said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church.
The true definition of church is the body of believers who have put their faith in Christ for their salvation. The church is not an organized religious system. In order for us to logically believe the LDS claim to apostacy, we would have to believe that there was not one single person left on the face of the Earth believing in and following the true gospel of Christ. LDS teaching alone dismisses this claim i.e. The Apostle John and the 3 Nephites.
Really? The Apostle John is still here and he quit preaching the gospel of Christ? Not logical.
Good question Echo.
Regarding murder,
What about the old blood oaths that have been removed from the Temple Ceremony. Did this or did this not signify that Mormons would have their throats cut and bowels removed if they told the secrets of the Temple?
“On May 4, 1842, Joseph Smith, Jr. instituted the Endowment ritual in Nauvoo, Illinois. At three different stages of the Endowment, participants were asked to take an oath of secrecy regarding the gestures of the ceremony.The participants promised that if they were ever to reveal the gestures of the ceremony, would be subject to the following:
Stage 1 : “my throat … be cut from ear to ear, and my tongue torn out by its roots;”
Stage 2 : “our breasts … be torn open, our hearts and vitals torn out and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field;”
Stage 3 : “our body … be cut asunder and all your bowels gush out.”
Each of the penalties was accompanied by gestures known as the “execution of the penalty” which simulated the actions described in the oath.[citation needed]
Stage 1: The participant placed his or her right hand palm-down with the thumb extended and the tip of the thumb just under the left ear. The execution of the gesture was made by drawing the tip of the thumb swiftly across the throat until the thumb was just under the right ear, then dropping the hand and arm quickly to the side of the participant’s body.
Stage 2: The participant placed his or her hand in a cup form over the left breast. The execution of the gesture was made by pulling the hand-cup swiftly across the breast, then quickly dropping the hand and arm to the side of the participant’s body.
Stage 3: The participant placed his or her right hand palm-down with the thumb extended and the tip of the thumb on the left of the torso, just above the left hip. The execution of the gesture was made by drawing the thumb swiftly across the stomach until the thumb was just above the right hip, and the hand and arm were quickly dropped to the side of the participant’s body.” ~Wikepedia
Who was going to do the murdering if anyone told?
To answer Josh’s question, apparently Mormons could “accept Christ” and then turn around and murder someone which is contrary to Mormon teaching on the subject.
It’s no wonder that so many new converts left after being asked to perform such tasks in a “house of God”.
Hi all
I really want to join in on this discussion right now but I’m too tied up. I will get back to this and answer Josh as well.
Josh-
Why would a “prophet” of God threaten his followers with murder for revealing temple secrets when God has commanded us not to murder? Where is the logic in that? Is the threat of murder the same as committing muder in the heart?
In very brief repsonse, God has throughout the Bible command one group to kill another.. To kill is different than to murder. On phone (i depise writing on it…) Will answer more later
Steph Said “That is what we call blind faith and is illogical.” and “You have to go to outside sources in order to make a rational, logical decision regarding things like this.” and “Where is the logic in that?” and “The Apostle John is still here and he quit preaching the gospel of Christ? Not logical.” and “In order for us to logically believe the LDS claim to apostasy,” and “it is not logical to apply logic to the Bible and not apply logic to your faith in the LDS religious system.”
I also noticed several references to logical reasoning made by Choose in many of her posts.
I mention this merely because this thread was opened with a lecture on how we are to reject logic. He even states that “when people respond to biblical teaching with a logical argument [he doesn’t] even bother responding” because “They are using something that doesn’t apply.”
Isn’t it funny how Christians tell the LDS we are worshiping logic when we want to understand God, but then use logic to try to prove us wrong. I almost want to take Mark’s lead and simply ignore anything that makes any appeal to logic, and the basis that it simply doesn’t apply.
CHOOSE
“This does answer Josh’s question. Christians accept Christ and then follow Him by keeping his commands.”
This does not answer the question. The question is about what is allowed, not about what you actually choose to do. Is it possible for a person to commit mass murder after accepting Christ and still be saved in Heaven? Whether you would do it or not is irrelevant. The question is can you do it.
“It is not that we “don’t have to do anything”, it is that the things we “do” are done after we are saved and are not required to receive that salvation.”
So, in terms of our salvation we do not have to do anything. This was my point. To be saved nothing in required.
So, was there anything required under the Old Covenant, or where all those ordinances just for show, like Baptism?
ECHO
“can someone accept Christ and turn around and murder someone?”
Yes they can, and they still have their agency. However, if they do they can never enter the Celestial Kingdom, but have fallen from their exaltation and will spend eternity in the lowest levels of heaven. David is a good example, for he murdered Uriah, and “therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion,” (D&C 132: 39) but will not be cast into for eternity, for we read from him that God “wilt not leave my soul in hell.” (Psalms 16: 10)
However, if a person has accepted Christ, has entered into all the covenants of the Gospel (including endowment and marriage), and has there exaltation sealed on them, and then commits murder, they are cast out forever, and are sons of perdition (who is the devil) having no reward in heaven. Cain is a good example of this “who was a murderer from the beginning” (Ether 8: 15), who “loved Satan more than God” (Moses 5: 18), who established a secret society dedicated to murder (Moses 5: 29), who made a deal with the devil and slew his brother Abel; all this he did in open defiance to God, whom he had spoken to face to face on more than one occasion. This man was called Perdition by God, not merely a son of perdition.
STEPH
First, let me say that I have never been through the temple, though I am planning on it soon. I would also like to state that I do not know who here has, nor do I care. God has a way of darkening the understanding of those who turn from his covenants, so that they eventually loose that which they once new (Matthew 5: 29).
Now, a few years ago when I learned that some things were going to be taken out of the ceremony in the Temple I asked my mother about it, and this is what she said.
First, those parts that were removed were not part of the covenant itself, or the ordinance which established the covenant. They were a ceremonial part which was used to illustrate certain things. In the case of the case of death and all that what we being illustrated is what people should be willing to endure rather than break the covenant (which includes not sharing the details with those who have not also partaken of it). It was not a threat to those who did, but an oath to say “I would rather endure this torture than betray the covenant that I am making here.”
“LDS teaching alone dismisses this claim i.e. The Apostle John and the 3 Nephites.”
Mormon 8: 10 “And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.”
When the world grew to such a state of wickedness that even the power of these great men could not persuade them to repent God removed his spirit from them, and took his servants from their midst. It is logical that he did the same thing with John when the people of the Old World also became too corrupt for the Lord to leave his spirit among them.
“I see hints of things like Catholisism, Greek philosophy, Protestantism, Reformationism/Restorationism, and other early heretical/pagan teachings in Mormonism”
The funny thing is that this is evidence enough for me. God revealed His Gospel to the ancient patriarchs, so that in the beginning there was only the pure religion of Christ. When the flood came it was only this religion that was preserved by the faith Noah and his family. Thus, logically, all other religions are a degenerate form of the pure religion of Christ. As such I would expect every religion in the world to have some similarities to the gospel.
For instance: In Hinduism it is taught that a person goes through several cycles of birth, death, and rebirth, with the goal of progressing to a perfected state, at which point you are freed from the bondage of mortality and rejoin the universal essence.
The Truth: We were born as spirits, born again as mortals, and will be (in a sense) born again as immortals (parallel to reincarnation). Through these lives we strive to progress to a state of perfection will result in us rejoining God in the eternal worlds.
Similar parallels can be made to every religion and mythology, which only proves that these are merely corrupted forms of the gospel that have developed over the years after the people of the area fell into apostasy.
Shem said “I mention this merely because this thread was opened with a lecture on how we are to reject logic. He even states that “when people respond to biblical teaching with a logical argument [he doesn’t] even bother responding” because “They are using something that doesn’t apply.”
Isn’t it funny how Christians tell the LDS we are worshiping logic when we want to understand God, but then use logic to try to prove us wrong. I almost want to take Mark’s lead and simply ignore anything that makes any appeal to logic, and the basis that it simply doesn’t apply.”
I think Shem has missed the point. The LDS here had been using logic to dismiss things like the Trinity and the Deity of Christ even though these are both evident in the Bible and in fact the BOM used to show the Deity of Christ. The Trinity is a hard thing for us to comprehend, but we can not logically explain it away when God has clearly revealed this about himself to us. Because God has said it to be so, we accept it even though we can not totally comprehend it. That is the whole point. Since the LDS claim to believe the Bible to be the Word of God, why are the LDS going to such great lengths to dismiss this concept? Maybe because it does not fit LDS theology? The LDS use logic to explain away things of the Bible that they do not want to believe, yet they do not use the same logic when looking at the teachings and doctrines of the LDS church. In fact, I think it was you Shem, who said you did not care about historical facts and evidence that proved LDS claims to be wrong. I just simply do not understand this kind of thinking. If you think you can apply logic to the Bible which you claim to be the Word of God, then you had better be willing to apply logic to the BOM and LDS church. I don’t have to use logic to see the Trinity in the Bible for there are multiple passages that say God is God, Jesus is God, and Holy Spirit is God. I am going to use logic to prove you wrong because I do not believe the BOM or LDS teachings to be from God. You however, believe the Bible to be the Word of God, yet you use your logic to explain away what it says.
Josh
Isaiah 30:8 and the other passages of Isaiah you cited do absolutely nothing to point to anything other than the coming of the Kingdom of God as established through Christ’s Church. They lend no support whatsoever to the claim that the church as entrusted to Peter and the apostles through Jesus would ever need to be “reformed” and Jesus’ gospel as taught by the apostles substituted with one demanding a covenant of obedience to the law. Christ abolished the law by fulfilling it for us perfectly. Romans 10:4 –
“4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” You simply refuse to believe that, as does the entire LDS church. You and LDS church deny the heart of the gospel of Jesus. You don’t trust in His perfection – that much is clear. Yes we still sin, but that is explained very well in Romans 7.
You say:
“I will tell you why. to start, little if any of the old testament was written by the apostles themselves. most of it if i remember correctly was written ~300 years later, if not more.”
I never said the entire Bible was written by apostles. I have said that the prophets of the Bible never made a single mistake with their prophecies. Yours has made more mistakes in his “prophecies” than I can count. What strikes me is your turning a blind eye to demonstrable falsehoods clung to by the LDS church. EVERY SINGLE PROPHECY FORTOLD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT ABOUT JESUS WAS PERFECTLY FULFILLED . THAT Josh is ACCURACY! THOSE ARE PROHPHETS
You say:
” Everybody wants to take their own turn at the pinata, breaking out of it the candy THEY choose. My point here is that they all flowed from one very corrupt teacher.Just because you think you have caught all the corruption, does not mean that you have.”
I never said I think I have caught all the corruption. Paul was finding false teachings and corruption in his day, and it has never stopped and never will. You, however, are the one taking one man’s word that he reformed all the corruption on nothing more than a “burning in your bosom.” The difference is my church and other Christian churches (Catholicism is whole other subject) in their own way (some better than others, some hardly at all) make their focus on what the Bible teaches. As soon as any church begins to alter or doubt or question the accuracy or truthfulness of God’s Word it can cause that particular church or religion to lose its way. My church, tries very hard to adhere to the pure and true teachings of the Bible and in fact will not “fellowship” (associate or jointly worship) with other denominations of Christian churches who add their own modifications to Bible teachings for whatever reason. When false doctrine, or attempts to “water down” scripture come along, the Word must be defended. You perceive defense of scripture as “taking a turn at a piñata.” We don’t claim to be perfect or have all the answers, but we do know the answers to be found are found in the Bible and nowhere else.
“well, you know what, if they didnt get it right the first time, there is probably a reason for it. you dont get to accept any more books huh? well then, you need to reject everything except the original Greek writings, and learn to speak Greek very fluently, because i guarantee that SOMETHING has been lost in there. No way you say? well, then why are there “new” versions of the bible with just slightly different interpretations?”
You really have no idea why new translations are developed or used. It’s not because the Bible has changed, it is because we do and so does our language usage over time. It strikes me as odd that you find such fault with what is a good practice to compare a modern translations to the original Greek and Hebrew. At least Greek and Hebrew are actual known languages that actual people really used and can still read. You, however, don’t even question some ancient Egyptian language no Egyptian, alive or dead, has ever used or even heard of. At least those, “bunch of guys” could read a real language. Never mind the fact that the “book of Abraham” must have been writen in another Egyptian language that turned out to be a funeral text.
I think it boils down to this, you either trust God to be able to carry out His plan of salvation perfectly, which includes His Word, which despite your logic or Joseph Smith’s phony Egyptian language, God says endures forever, and Jesus says “my word will not pass away.” That Bible you so easily dismiss is the inerrant Word of God. “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” Psalm 118:8. You put your confidence in one man using an unknown language. And Nephi calls us fools?
By the way, the passages you cited were not from the King James Version of the Bible – and you don’t trust those – right?
Shem
“ECHO said: “can someone accept Christ and turn around and murder someone?”
Shem responded: “Yes they can, and they still have their agency. However, if they do they can never enter the Celestial Kingdom, but have fallen from their exaltation and will spend eternity in the lowest levels of heaven.”
So a murderer can say once saved, always saved?
Echo: didnt want you to feel i was ignoring this quesetion… time is a killer recently:
When you use the term “saved” is that referring to heaven (all 3 kingdoms) or just the Celestial Kingdom?
I would say in general, LDS used saved as to the celestial. This is not to say that someone CANT use it in another light. (and i really dont want to discuss every single time an LDS person HAS used saved… but we can if someone REALLY wants to… This topic was worship of logic… lets try and stay there)
To Choose:
Josh’s question and my answer:
QUESTION: do you get to accept Christ and sit on your hands? Do I sit on my hands, NO I do not.
Christians accept Christ and then follow Him by keeping his commands.
I agree that you did not answer if you get to, (unless the NO is in reference to that, though your sentence dictates that it is directed at the first pat of your sentence “DO I” versus to my questions “Do you get to”)
Echo:
Josh said: “This is not your concern. your concern SHOULD be whether Christ CAN provide the ability for me to remain sinless.”
Echo said: “Christ HAS made us sinless already.”
Again, to the not answering my concern… CAN CHRIST PROVIDE FOR ME TO REMAIN SINLESS? we are not sinless after we accept Christ and then go again and sin. there is a process to return to being sinless, this is NOT what i am concerned about. From the VERY FIRST TIME I repent, CAN I REMAIN ABSOLUTELY BLEMISH FREE?
ECHO
“So a murderer can say once saved, always saved?”
You seem to be defining “saved” as going to heaven.
We are defining “saved” as celestial “glory” or “reward” or “level.”
Steph:
“BTW, it is not logical to apply logic to the Bible and not apply logic to your faith in the LDS religious system.”
I am applying logic. Logically, if something was lost, it must be restored. It cant just be restored by some bum on the street, it must be restored by someone with the power and authority to restore.
David:
Yours has made more mistakes in his “prophecies” than I can count.
What prophecies? I will openly state that i have not read in its entirety the BoM and i have not read entirely the Bible. I speak from the parts that i have read, and have studied. If you have factual stuff to present, then present them. Saying “someone once said” in this discussion basically amounts to nothing. I could tell you “someone once said the Bible says kill all the butterflies in the world”… doesnt mean that the Bible does.. it means someone had no clue what they were talking about.
Josh
Alrighty – I’ll just give you one and lets see how this one goes?
“As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.”
BTW – this sounds an awful lot like the first temptation of Eve in the Garden of Eden.
“5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:5.
Don’t forget that the devil started this temptation by questioning what God really said. Sound familiar?
“. . . And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” Genesis 3:1.
Lets start with that one.
David:
“Become like unto me”, says our Lord Jesus Christ. Be Holy as I am Holy. (Leviticus 11:44)
John 10:34, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
Jesus was quoting Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”.
Unless i am Completely off my rocker (which by now i am sure at least a few of you think)
Christ IS our TREE OF LIFE, right? Through him, we live forever?
Man was made in the image of God… every really stop to think about why this is? Coincidence? Run out of other things to make us look like? Why in the world…. unless… well. ill give you a shot at it :)
Josh
You should really learn to read scripture in context and not take little bits and pieces to try and pigeonhole it into what you want it to say. This is a consistent pattern I see with posts of yours that I and others reply too. You cite Psalm 82:6 all by itself. Well, lets note something first – the “g” in the word “gods” in that verse is a small “g” and refers to false gods. Are “ye” to become one of those? Is that what you are saying? Well then take a look at what happens to such “gods”:
“1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” Psalm 82:1
Note here Josh God at the start of the sentence is the true God with a capital “G”. He judges the false gods with the small g.
Now lets get to your verse in context – speaking of these gods (small g) it continues:
“2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
“5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.”
From verse 2 we see that they are unjust and wicked. From verse 3 we see the oppression of the weak and fatherless. From verse 4 the weak and needy must be delivered from wickesness. “They” either the nations with these gods or their subjects “know not,” “neither will they understand,” and they “walk in darkness.”
From verse 7 we see that these gods die like men, they fall, and under them all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
So that is what the LDS church teaches its members to aspire to? To be gods with a small “g.” Leading people into darkness, having subjects that are oppressed and in need of delivery? That’s it?
Lets also look at what God says about whether there has been or ever shall be any other true Gods.
“10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10.
Why don’t you read Isaiah 43:10 with the same desire to believe its truth as you want to belleve that Psalm 82:6 is an indication that you can become God with a capital G? The truth Josh – is that man will NEVER become a God and God the Father was never a human being and isn’t one now. “24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” John 4:24. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. When you choose to believe Joseph Smith you choose NOT to believe God.
Do you want me to list another false prophecy?
ECHO
“So a murderer can say once saved, always saved?”
In all truth, everyone who does not commit the unpardonable sin has some claim on some level of salvation, for all will eventually be saved from an eternity in Hell.
However, Josh is very correct in that when we discuss salvation we are generally talking about a complete a total salvation in being exalted with our Heavenly Father. In this sense he cannot say ‘once saved always saved.’
The real question here is do you believe in different rewards in heaven. That is the difference. If we are all going to be in the same place doing the same thing regardless of what we do here than you are teaching the idea of once saved always saved. However, if you believe that our actions in this life have a direct effect on where we go and what we do in eternity than you are not teaching once saved always saved, as there is always the chance of loosing some part of that salvation, or the reward, and thus a complete and total salvation is never guaranteed without our own effort.
CHOOSE
“The LDS here had been using logic to dismiss things like the Trinity and the Deity of Christ even though these are both evident in the Bible”
I have not missed the point, and it is still hypocritical. We can’t use logic to explain why we don’t believe what you do because you say logic doesn’t apply to your faith. However, you can use logic to explain whey you don’t believe what we do because you don’t have faith in it. That is hypocrisy.
Now, let me explain the nature of logic, and why it applies to all facets to life, including faith.
Logic is a tool that is used to understanding something. Since it is a tool it cannot be used until there is something to work with. Thus, to say something is logical means that you started at one point and arrived at your conclusion through the use of the tool of logic. This does not mandate that the starting point be based in logic, only that the conclusion be logically derived from that starting point.
Now, the accusation made in this thread is that we have logic as our starting point, which is impossible. In the matter of the nature of God we have the Godhead as our starting point, and from that starting point we interpret the passage of the Bible in a logical manner. You, on the other hand, have as a starting point the doctrine of the trinity, and from that starting point interpret the passages in the Bible in a logical manner.
When it comes to our logic this is how we work: We take was is reveled and know to be true, and use that as our starting point. From this was approach the Bible, or any other writing, in a logical fashion to understand its meaning.
On occasion people are forced to approach things from a starting point that has no clear direction in which it leads. This is the case with trying to understand the Bible without any preconceived doctrine. Thus, we have the starting point of “The Bible is the word of God,” which doesn’t get us far. We then read a single passage, and because of our starting point we accept that it is true, and our reasoning leads us to an understanding of it. If we then read another passage that appears to contradict what our reasoning has said we go back, compare the two and, since our starting point dictates they are both true, we must use both to reasoning out a meaning that agrees with them. In this way we build until eventually we have an understanding of the Bible that is in harmony with everything it says.
Now, people ask how this is possible if we believe the Bible has errors in it. The reason is this: There is no reasoning that can reconcile everything the Bible says. Thus, the starting point has proven to be faulty, and we are forced to reconsider that. The only way to do otherwise is to have additional information given that will enlighten our minds and provide what is needed to reconcile the contradictions.
The same thing is true for everything in life, including the Book of Mormon and all the other writings of all the prophets and other men.
Now, on many occasions God has revealed additional information that has opened our understanding and allowed us to see the logic in the doctrine. Other times he has come out and said we something was wrong and has corrected the mistake, thus making everything harmonious again.
To sum things up, logic must have a starting point, from which all reasoning comes. So, everyone approaches everything with logic, even the doctrine of the trinity. The only difference is the starting point from which the understanding is derived.
Follow -up
It would be more accurate to say above instead of false gods ( while it is true that all other gods are false gods) to simply say that in Psalm 82 it reflects gods with a small “g” to be people given God’s law but still not God capital G. All, even those given God’s law, don’t become Gods by obedience to the law or any other means, all they can do is fall short of the law. Which is why God needs to defend the weak and oppressed persons mention here. The point, however, I’d tried to make above although not so well, is that you can’t read this Psalm as proof that man can become like God with a capital G, man given God’s law is referred to merely as god little “g.” And I hope I didn’t confuse you too much.
Will i ever become “I AM”?
NO, and to say such would be heresy…
Will I be given power to do certain things?
Yes. Even SATAN WAS GIVEN POWER BY GOD… if you fail to reason this, you are sorely mistaken… NOTHING was here before God, and as such, EVERYTHING is OF GOD, including Satan..
Josh
You either believe a heresy or you don’t believe your prophets. Make no mistake the LDS churches what you think is a heresy:
“As man now is, God once was;
As GOD NOW IS, man may be”
(the Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles Course Manual , p. 59)
“You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same and ALL GODS have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace” (Joseph Smith quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles Course Manual, p. 24.)
“I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith., p 345″
“God is glorified and perfected man, personage of flesh and bones.” (Gospel Principles p 9.)
“We shall standin our relationship to them as God our Eternal Father does to us, and thereby this is the most glorious and wonderful privilege that will ever come to any of the sone and daughters of God” (Elder Melvin J. Ballard, quoted in Doctrines and Covenants Student Manual, p. 359.
“We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Smith, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, p. 132)
Josh – how much longer are you going to defend the indefensible? If Nothing was before God, and your God was once human, where did the first God start? Your reason won’t help you.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14
you are trying to twist my words. I WILL NEVER BE “I AM”. can i be LIKE “I AM”?
IF HE chooses so, then YES I CAN. Will i ever “take over I AM’s position”? NO i will not.
Josh – how much longer are you going to defend the indefensible? If Nothing was before God, and your God was once human, where did the first God start? Your reason won’t help you.
I have no answer to this. in response i ask you a similarly unanswerable question
How was God before nothing? ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETE NOTHING. to me by definition, this says there is no God.. I ACCEPT that God was, and that nothing was, simultaneously. To do so is obviously contradicting one another. I DO NOT know how this was. Do I question it? ABSOLUTELY. WILL I UNDERSTAND IT? no.
Shem,
Echo said: “So a murderer can say once saved, always saved?”
Shem replied: “In all truth, everyone who does not commit the unpardonable sin has some claim on some level of salvation, for all will eventually be saved from an eternity in Hell. However, Josh is very correct in that when we discuss salvation we are generally talking about a complete a total salvation in being exalted with our Heavenly Father. In this sense he cannot say ‘once saved always saved.’
The real question here is do you believe in different rewards in heaven. That is the difference. If we are all going to be in the same place doing the same thing regardless of what we do here than you are teaching the idea of once saved always saved. However, if you believe that our actions in this life have a direct effect on where we go and what we do in eternity than you are not teaching once saved always saved, as there is always the chance of loosing some part of that salvation, or the reward, and thus a complete and total salvation is never guaranteed without our own effort.”
For the record, Lutherans(which is what I am) do “not” believe in “once saved, always saved” and I just want that to be noted since there are other Christians posting here that may believe in “once saved, always saved”
Thinking of all that you said and coming to “my own” conclusion from that, my conclusion is: why would God “reward” a “murderer” with the lowest level of heaven? What am I not understanding in this?
Josh
I’m not trying to twist your words. Obviously You can’t BE the I AM that is the creator of heaven and earth. But even if you believe you can be like Him it runs contrary to Isaiah and what I AM said about Himself and other gods. Is that not true? And, when I read those LDS passages I quoted you,
“We shall standin our relationship to them as God our Eternal Father does to us, . .”
and
“As man now is, God once was;
As GOD NOW IS, man may be”
I can’t see how you read them as providing that you cannot progress to be His equal. It certainly reads that way to me. I’m just trying to put a rational construction on what it says. I’m not trying to twist anything around. But I have another question. Why is it OK for the origin of God to be beyond understanding but with the Bible passages it bothers you that they make no sense to you?
Echo, in posting that there is a difference in theology of “once saved, always saved” you have verified, to ME at least, that you believe the converse teaching to be corrupt. If you do not believe in “once saved, always saved”, what can we doto fall from salvation? Must we then “work” to retain salvation?
Josh
” I WILL NEVER BE “I AM”. can i be LIKE “I AM”? IF HE chooses so, then YES I CAN.”
And you believe this God speaking in Isaiah 44:10 is going to choose that?
The one who also said:
“5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
Again, what part of “NO” is unclear? No other God really means there are other Gods? What?
Josh,
Josh said: “Echo, in posting that there is a difference in theology of “once saved, always saved” you have verified, to ME at least, that you believe the converse teaching to be corrupt. If you do not believe in “once saved, always saved”, what can we doto fall from salvation? Must we then “work” to retain salvation?”
Obedience to the commandments isn’t what keeps us from losing our salvation. We have been saved through faith alone and we keep our salvation through faith alone.
We do teach obedience to the commandments but that kind of “work” is excluded when discussing the topic of our salvation.
Losing our faith or rejecting our faith is what causes us to lose our salvation. Faith is a gift of God. While God does indeed give us the gift of faith, we keep that faith by staying in his word, partaking of the sacrament of The Lord’s Supper and looking to our Baptism, as it is through these means that God strengthens and keeps us in the faith.
Josh
Look at these. Then I have question for you:
” 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
” 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10
“18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.” Isaiah 45:18
“21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:21-22
Josh aside from the passages I have already showed you are these where God says again very clearly that there are no other gods. You ask me how did my God start. My God had no begining, He always was. The bible tells me this : “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalm 90:2.
The LDS church teaches, as I have shown, that God was once a man. The LDS church also teaches that others gods at one time gave Him birth. According to LDS teaching there were other gods before I AM. So my question to you is, in all these passages where God says there is no other and He knows of no other, do you think God is lying?
Echo:
we keep that faith by staying in his word, partaking of the sacrament of The Lord’s Supper and looking to our Baptism, as it is through these means that God strengthens and keeps us in the faith.
I would label these things “work” as NO WORK would mean doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Thank you for agreeing that “work” is needed. For the purpose of this particular post, WORK is something/ANYTHING, NO WORK is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING..
David: please see latest “blog” thing for a reply.. i am a bit OCD sometimes, and it really helps me concentrate when topics stick together appropriately.
ECHO
I would like to clarify one thing. While a murderer will eventually enter the lowest level of heaven, he will first spend time in hell. This will amount to at least 1000 years, or the time of the millennium as all the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming and will not be resurrected until after the thousand years are over.
Which is why King David wrote that God would not leave his spirit in hell. He knew he would have to spend some time there, but would eventually be brought back out.
Shem, thank you for the clarification. Isn’t murder the unforgivable sin in LDS teaching? If so, what are the full implications in that?
Moses murdered, will he spend time in Hell also?
Murder is not unforgiveable. per previous biblical reference, the only unforgiveable sin is blaspheme. Murder is not blaspheme. Killing is different than murder. (God commanded not to murder, and.also commanded to wipe groups of people off the face of this earth.utterly and completely
ECHO
Doctrine and Covenants 132: 27
“The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.”
The unpardonable sin is much more involved than just committing murder. As I said earlier, one must first enter into all the covenants of the gospel. They must also have their calling and election made sure, or have their exaltation sealed by God. Then they must turn around and commit murder, in which they shed innocent blood. but even this is not enough, even though it will cause them to loose exaltation and spend some time in Hell. There is still one thing more. They have to consent to the death of Christ; or as Joseph Smith once put it, they thirst after the blood of the saints. They not only violate God’s law, but truly seek to usurp power and authority, and are constantly striving to become a law of their own, separate from God in every respect (which would require the destruction of everything that is God’s).
When this has happened they have abandoned all light and no goodness can be found in them. They have placed themselves so far from God that no redemption is possible, and they will be damned through all eternity.
This is what Satan and the one third of the hosts of heaven did when they rebelled in Heaven. They sought to overthrow God and establish Satan as their ruler. This is what Cain did when he bargained with the devil the kill Abel.
On the other hand, David did not do this, for when he was told his sin by Nathan he wept in anguish and strove with all his power to repent of the offense. For this reason David will suffer for the murder, but he will not be damned, but will eventually enter the kingdom.
Speaking of Moses, he did not commit murder. Killing and murder are not the same things, as Josh has pointed out. Moses, having been raised by his true mother (acting as wet nurse) knew his heritage. When he went out among his brothers he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, and in the defense of his brother he killed the Egyptians. This was not the shedding of innocent blood, but the killing of one guilty of oppression and abuse, done while he was in the very act, and is thus justified.
Shem said: “Which is why King David wrote that God would not leave his spirit in hell”
Are you aware that when King David prophesied that God would not leave his spirit in Hell, that King David was prophesying of God not leaving Jesus in Hell and that David was not referring to himself? See Acts 2:29-36
ECHO
I know that Peter used Psalms 16: 10 to teach the truth of the risen Lord and His glorification in Heaven. That is an good use of the verse.
However, the wording of the verse itself shows that David is talking about two different people (him and Christ).
Psalms 16: 10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
If this was only talking about Christ he would not have used the first person in the first part, and then the third person in the second.
This idea is supported by other psalms that David wrote. Notice Psalm 30: 9 “O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.” Also Psalm 86: 13 “For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.”
Peter, when he was addressing the crowds in Jerusalem, did not address every detail of the meaning of the words of David. He selected certain passages that spoke of Christ, and applied them to Christ. His purpose was to persuade the people that Jesus was the Christ and to believe. He did this effectively, and I would do the same thing.
This does not change the meaning of what David said. It merely means that Peter had a specific message and did not want to distract from it with unnecessary details at the time. This is not a deception, but a tactic of good teaching.
Note: The same psalm is referenced by Paul in Acts 13: 34-37, but without reference to the part of leaving his soul in Hell.
So, I will stick with the interpretation I have given, and I will applaud Peter for his excellent skills in teaching.
Shem said: “However, the wording of the verse itself shows that David is talking about two different people (him and Christ). Psalms 16: 10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
If this was only talking about Christ he would not have used the first person in the first part, and then the third person in the second.”
I don’t want to accidentally twist your words so I am asking for some clarification. When you say: “David is talking about two different people (him and Christ)….If this was only talking about Christ he would not have used the first person in the first part, and then the third person in the second.”…
What part is referring to David and what part is referring to Christ?
ECHO
The first person refers to himself, the third person to Christ.
““For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell” This is in first person, and is thus David speaking of himself.
“neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” This is in the third person, and is thus speaking of the person that it refers to. That would be the Holy One, identified as Christ by both Peter and Paul.
Shem said: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell” This is in first person, and is thus David speaking of himself.”
The book of Acts states that both “his soul was not left in Hell” and “his flesh did not see corruption” are both referring to Christ…
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption”
Shem, Echo;
I think trying to parse this Psalm into 1st, 2nd, and 3rd persons in order to determine what part of the Psalm refers only to David and what part of the Psalm refers only to Christ misses the overall point that a given verse from this messianic Psalm can refer to both David and to Christ. I suggest a reading which asks how a given verse of this Psalm refers to David as well as how it refers to Christ, rather than a reading which forces a verse to refer only to one, to the exclusion of the other.
Do you think that sometimes the grammatical 2nd person or 3rd person can be used to identify the 1st person?
RLO
RLO
“Do you think that sometimes the grammatical 2nd person or 3rd person can be used to identify the 1st person?”
On occasion, but not when it is mixed with the first person, as such would only cause confusion.
I would agree that the verse is not be speaking of one of the men to the exclusion of the other. I also would agree that in reading the verse we can liken it to many things. However, I do think that David had a specific message intended when he wrote it, and though it can be applied in other ways these do not change what he was thinking at the time.
ECHO
My point is that when David wrote this psalm he was talking about himself and Christ. When Peter quoted this psalm in Acts 2 his message was about Christ, and so he did not directly apply it to David.
RLO,
Could you clarify how was David’s soul was not left in Hell? Shem believes David’s soul is in Hell for at least a 1000 years.
“… how David’s soul was not left in Hell?” ? I don’t personally believe David’s soul ever was IN hell in the first place. Maybe I’m misunderstand what you are asking of me. But if your question is about something Shem believes, then he would be the best person to ask.
RLO,
You said: “I suggest a reading which asks how a given verse of this Psalm refers to David as well as how it refers to Christ”
I assume you mean to say that David is referring to himself as well as Christ when referring to “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell.” That is to say that the verse is saying that David’s soul was not left in Hell.
So then my question is: Since we believe that David never went to Hell, could you clarify what it means to say that David’s soul was not left in Hell?
Echo;
Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. What I wished to express is that within this messianic psalm, there may be verses that apply to both David and Christ, as well as verses that apply only to Christ. It will depend on the context – the context of the verse, the context of the chapter, the context of the book, and the context of the entire Bible.
Would I have been clearer if I had said, “I suggest a reading which considers when a passage refers to David, when a passage refers to Christ, and when a passage refers to both.” ??
Since I believe David’s soul never went to hell, this verse (10) refers to Christ rather than David.
RLO said: “Since I believe David’s soul never went to hell, this verse (10) refers to Christ rather than David.”
Okay, we are on the same page then because that is what I was saying to begin with.
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption”
Okay.
The main crux of my discussion was not suppose to be specific to doctrine, but rather general, regarding the use of an “argument from silence” to support a view. Sorry if I threw you off a bit.
No problem RLO.
The arguement by silence point for this scripture was shown to be incorrect.
Echo and Josh;
Politely disregard my post #157 just above. In between running my two teenage girls all over creation and trying to post something inbetween trips, I inadvertently blended my thoughts from two separate conversations. Hey, I never said I couldn’t be a scatter-brain sometimes.
RLO
RLO, I was wondering what in the world post 157 had to do with this discussion. *smile* Not to worry. We are all scatter-brained at times.
RLO and ECHO
So, when was Christ’s soul ever in Hell? It seems much more likely that David, a man who committed murder, would spend some time there rather than Christ.
Also, explain the wording of this verse. Why would he use the first person to refer to Christ, and then use the third person to refer to him again? It makes no sense.
Also consider the last few verses in Revelation 20, in which we are told that the spirits will come out of hell to be judged at the final judgment. Does this not support the understanding that “you will not leave my soul in Hell.”
Shem asked, “So, when was Christ’s soul ever in Hell?”
Are you denying Christ’s descent into hell? Because most Mormons I’ve spoken with don’t deny it. While they may attach differing reasons for the descent, they don’t deny it.
Shem said: “It seems much more likely that David, a man who committed murder, would spend some time there rather than Christ.
From what I’m gathering, in Mormon theology hell is apparently someplace Mormons believe people can graduate from. In Christian theology, with the singular exception of Christ who won the victory over sin, death, and the power of the devil, going to hell is permanent.
Shem said: “Also, explain the wording of this verse. Why would he use the first person to refer to Christ, and then use the third person to refer to him again? It makes no sense.”
Why doesn’t this make sense to you? Is there a grammar rule somewhere that says this cannot be done? Or is it your own self-imposed rule? Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you because the true meaning of the passage conflicts with the preconceived beliefs you bring to the reading of it.
Shem asks: ” Also consider the last few verses in Revelation 20, in which we are told that the spirits will come out of hell to be judged at the final judgment. Does this not support the understanding that “you will not leave my soul in Hell.”
Hardly the same outcome. The Psalm account is a message of promise and comfort. The Revelation account is a message of damnation. How could you even associate the two?
RLO
“Are you denying Christ’s descent into hell? Because most Mormons I’ve spoken with don’t deny it.”
If they’re not denying this then they are denying the scriptures. (See doctrine and Covenants 138: 29-30)
“From what I’m gathering, in Mormon theology hell is apparently someplace Mormons believe people can graduate from.”
Then you are gathering wrong, or incomplete. The spirit prison, sometimes called hell, is only temporary, and a person can accept proxy baptism to leave this prison and enter the spirit paradise. However, the final judgment of God that comes after the resurrection is permanent, and anyone condemned to hell at that time is stuck. There is no graduating from one degree to another after the final judgment (hence the name).
“Why doesn’t this make sense to you?”
Tell me; what would you think if I said “I live in New York and Josh lives in California” and then Kate told you that I was only talking about Josh and did not intend anyone to think that I actually lived in New York? Would you believe Kate? Not likely. So why is it that we should apply different reasoning to the words of David.
“Hardly the same outcome.”
It may be a different outcome, but it is the same event. They are associated because they speak of this event of judgment. Both testify that the spirits of the dead will come out of hell eventually, to be judged. One gives the comfort that, even though time must be spent there, God’s grace is sufficient to limit that time. The other gives a warning to those whose actions are judged unworthy of that Grace. But they are still associated.